Hey there. It's Sanjay. Hard to believe, but next week we kick off season seven of Chasing Life. Ever since I turned 50, I've been thinking a lot about the passage of time. It's hard not to, especially since I've now spent more than two decades at CNN with a front row seat to medical and health history. I have three teenage daughters. My parents are now in their late seventies, early eighties. A lot has happened. So in the next season of the podcast, we're going to dive into the intersection of age and science and how in a lot of ways, age is a state of mind as much as it is the number of candles on a cake. No matter your age, I think you're going to want to listen because you're going to find this season as interesting as I do.

But before we get there, I wanted to briefly follow up on some of the reporting we did for the last season of the podcast. You probably remember that we explored the issue of screen time and social media and how they are affecting all of us. And ever since then, I've been hearing from so many of you that have been thinking about this issue as well, especially as it relates to our kids.

There's a lot of discussion lately about banning TikTok in the United States.

I think that's really stupid.

I had some frank and some really honest conversations with my whole family about this. My daughters, Sage Sky and Soleil, they didn't ask to grow up in this world filled with screens and social media. It is the world that they were born into. They reminded me of that. I also talked to my wife, Rebecca, about whether we could have done anything differently as parents to prepare them. And again, it was really candid, really illuminating to hear all this. It was also surprising and reassuring, honestly, to hear that my daughters say they were already thinking about what social media could be doing to them.

I think that is definitely a big concern that like social media has an effect on our mental health, and I think it does definitely.

Tonight, a profound risk of harm. An unprecedented warning about kids and social media.

Well just a few weeks ago, the U.S. surgeon general came out and said, my daughter Sky, who you just heard, and a lot of other people are right to be worried.

But Dr. Vivek Murthy, the surgeon general, says in his new report there is no guarantee that social media is safe for kids of any age. And in fact, nearly all of the research points to negative impacts.

In a new advisory, which was a warning to every American, the nation's top doctor says social media could actually be doing more harm than good, especially to our kids.

The other day, my five year old daughter came home and asked my wife and I about posting a picture on social media. And we were we were shocked because we didn't know that she even knew. She's in preschool, by the way.

So today we have a special episode for you because the surgeon general, Dr. Vivek Murthy, he reached out to us and said he wanted to be on the podcast to talk about why he's so concerned and what parents can do about it. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent. And this is Chasing Life.

Hey, Sanjay, I got to tell you, I really enjoyed hearing some of your episodes, especially those with with the family.

Oh, thanks. Yeah, thank you. Yes. I got to say. When you have conversations like that with family members, it's really it's really interesting. But let me just ask you about yourself. What is your relationship with social media? How do you use it?

Well, I would use the word fraught to define the relationship over the years, because I have struggled over the years to figure out how to use social media in a healthy way. There were times in my life where I realized I was spending way too much time on it, and it was taking away from other things that were important to me, like sleep and in-person interaction. There are also times I realize that I may experience a social media was actually making me feel worse about my life because I was constantly comparing myself to other people, even recognizing that people post their best moments sometimes on social. You're not. It's not reality still. Sometimes that can make men feel worse about their life. And that's how I felt. Now, the other On the other end of the spectrum, though, I've also been able to reconnect with old friends through social media and and that has been a real blessing. And and some of those friends I've been able to see in person. And those relationships have meant a lot to me. So, you know, I think finding the right balance is not easy, in part because, you know, the platforms weren't necessarily designed for balance. They were designed to maximize how much time we spend on them. But I think for most of us who want to prioritize health and well-being for ourselves and for our family, finding that right balance is really important. And that's a place where where I really struggled.

This is your experience. But but how worried are you when people hear something coming from the surgeon general's office, they think of, you know, smoking, you know, opioids, things like this, social media is is it at that level of concern for you?

Yes, I would say yes, it is. And and but it's it's more complicated because with smoking and which was an issue that our office, the Office of Surgeon General, has been engaged on for decades, that was more clear cut in some ways. There were a lot of harms associated with smoking. It was hardly hard to make the case that there were health benefits from smoking. Social media is more complicated because we know that some kids do actually get benefit from their experience of social media. Some are able to connect more easily with friends and family, to express themselves more creatively and more openly than they otherwise would, and to find community, which, especially for kids who have been historically marginalized or discriminated against like LGBTQ youth and others, that community can be a real lifeline that they find online. So so there are benefits and they're mixed in with some potential harms, like just take LGBTQ youth who I just mentioned a moment ago. They are also more likely to experience cyberbullying on social media than than other kids. And so how we weigh the risks and benefits becomes important. But one of the things that has become an increasing source of worry for me is that the the association between social media use and harmful outcomes there we've seen more and more evidence, you know, accumulate over recent years. And I don't know, Sanjay, I think about it kind of like, you know, I think about other products that the kids use, whether they're car seats or whether later in life, you know, cars, who in our kids become teenagers and we want them to start driving. We generally develop some safety standards. We ask manufacturers to meet those safety standards so that we as parents feel we are assured that we understand the risks and benefits of of a particular product. But we don't like to tell a parent, Hey, you know what, Your kid's 16. They're ready to drive. Why don't you go and inspect the brakes on your own? Why don't you check out the frame and make sure that the strength is sufficient to withstand a collision? We don't ask a parent to do that because that's not reasonable. Yet we have this technology that you and I didn't grow up using that's rapidly evolving. That fundamentally changes how kids interact with each other and how they see themselves at times. And we're asking parents to somehow figure it out all on their own. And the reason I issued an advisory on this topic is I worry that we have not taken enough action to support parents and kids.

When you talk about the dangers, like you said with smoking, it was pretty clear cut. And one could argue that there is no there's no redeeming qualities of smoking. Bad food is not good, but it gives you calories and opioids is not good, but it can help relieve pain. What is the level of evidence about the dangers of social media and what is the level of evidence that you want? I mean, what does it take for you as a surgeon general to act on this?

Yeah, it's a good question, and there are a few things that go into it. I think the first question I'm asking is where is the evidence of safety? Right. The same kind of safety evidence we may demand for other products that kids use, whereas evidence that tells me that using these products is not going to have a harmful effect on children. And that data, it turns out, is lacking. The second question is what you raised. Which is where is the evidence of harm. And there there is a lot of correlative data. There's a lot of association data. Right. That's showing an association between use and certain and negative outcomes, like, for example, for kids who who use more than 3 hours of social media a day, they face double the risk of depression and anxiety symptoms. But we also know that kids are telling us in their own words and their own experience how they're experiencing social media. So, for example, about nearly half of adolescents are saying that using social media makes them feel worse about their body image. That's not 100% of adolescents. Right. And if you look at that data in a more granular level, there's somewhere around 14% of kids who say that it actually makes them feel better about their body image. But, you know, you and I know that if we were thinking about a medication and whether it should be used for, you know, a child or an adult, for that matter. If 46% of people were experiencing an adverse effect, we would say, hey, that's that's a reason to pause and to understand more closely what's going on here. And one of the consistent messages I hear from researchers who's been studying this area for a long time is that they are having a hard time getting access to the data from social media companies. You know, as a parent, Sanjay, I don't ever want to feel like someone or anyone is hiding information from me about how a product affects my child. But that's how a lot of parents are feeling right now. And so that's a place where I think transparency matters. Let's get the data out there so independent researchers can assess it and can help us understand the harms and benefits and which kids are most impacted so we can design, you know, our approach, you know, in a more informed way.

I think a point that you're making is is a really important one. And, you know, leaving the policy aside for a second, I think a lot of parents don't have the conversation with their kids about this. But you got to have the conversation and ask, is this making you feel badly in some way? Is this somehow affecting your mental health? And I think you're surprised sometimes at the answers that you get, your parent, your dad, you and your wife. You have a five year old, a six year old. So what are you going to do?

So here's what we're going to do. And let me just say also that we you to the point you just made about the conversation, having the conversation there, kids, that's so important. You know, we lay out in the advisory number of steps parents can take, but one of them is to open up a dialog with your children about how they're using social media, what they're using it for, how it makes them feel, and also to help them understand what, say, a healthy and unhealthy use of social media in terms of our kids in our community. As you mentioned, my son is six, My daughter is five. They're they don't have social media accounts. They're they're too young to. But the other day, my five year old daughter came home and asked my wife and I about posting a picture on social media. And we were we were shocked because we didn't know that she even knew. She's in preschool, by the way. We didn't know that she even knew what social media was. But clearly her classmates are talking about it.

I read dad's advisory on this, she said, I want to post.

So but here's what we're thinking about doing. We're going to try to delay the use of social media for our kids until past middle school. That's easier said than done. And so we're going to need some help doing that. So we're also going to be talking to other parents and understanding if there are others who are similarly inclined and great and try to partner with those parents so that our kids also don't feel like they're the only kids. What we're going to also do is reevaluate as our kids get older, when they get to high school, and we'll be looking for three things in particular. One is just the maturity and development of our own kids, you know, to see are they ready? Are they're in a place where we can, you know, allow them to start using these platforms. Second, we'll be looking at the safety standards that are in place at that time. One of the things we call for in my advisory is for the policymakers to step in and establish actual, transparent, enforceable safety standards like we do for other products so that parents have some reassurance around safety. And then the third thing is we're going to look at is the data at that point in hopefully and we can we call for more transparency and data sharing and more funding of research by government so that we can better understand the benefits and harms associated with social media. But look, I recognize that this is all easier said than done. You know, and every family is different. Every child is different. And a lot of kids are under a lot of pressure. Right. When all of their friends are on social media, it's hard for it's for a parent to tell, you know, a child, hey, you're the only one who can be on it. But look, the bottom line is that we've for too long, we've left this entirely on the shoulders of parents to manage. And I just think that that's an it's it's not a reasonable expectation. I think for most parents, if the goal is to allow the most number of parents for the most number of kids to ultimately be able to. Navigate their social media decisions safely.

What is it like in your your household or if you go out to dinner or, you know, you and your wife when you when you have a screen, will you check it during dinner? What are you modeling for your kids?

That's an important question. Well, I'll tell you, I for a long time I did this...I think wrong is simply the right, the only way to put it, which is that I would be checking my my phone all the time and and I would give myself these excuses like, oh, I got to check and see. It could be a work related thing that comes in or I got to see what's going on on the news. Something could be happening that's really, you know, related to work. But, you know, the reality, Sanjay, is I just wanted to check my phone during those times. And and that was I just felt sort of compelled to and a little embarrassed to say that. But that's that's really the truth. And I now realize, talking to other people, that a lot of us felt that way these days. You know, we're working to be much more intentional about it. And I credit my wife with these changes over the years because when my child, my son was small, there was one time, like during his bedtime routine where I was, you know, we were both helping, getting ready for bed. And I, I was in one of those moments where I was just checking my phone on the side, and she looked over at me and in her characteristic calm but and thoughtful way, but very clear away, said, Do you really need to be doing that right now? And I got Sandy. I tell you, I felt such shame like when she said that because of like, of course I don't need to. Why am I even, like, looking at this? So we've tried to establish some sacred times in our day, right, where we're not on technology. One is when we're having dinner together as a family. The second is when we're playing with our kids, and the third is when we're out, you know, with friends or even on our own, you know, having dinner or just, you know, having a good time together. So those are times are we just try to really focus on one another. It is hard sometimes, you know, because I still feel that pull to check. But what it helps me is also remembering that my kids are watching because the few times that I have allowed myself to look at my phone and I'm playing with my kids now, my son, as he got gotten older, he he'll turn, he'll look at me and he'll say, Papa, why are you doing that? And so he he reminds me to to be present. So we're trying to help each other, to stay consistent with who we want to be here, which is to draw some boundaries around social media use to be present for each other. And hopefully that will we'll be able to continue to do that.

Drawing boundaries and being present. I think it's such an important point. Obviously also reminds me of this unforgettable conversation I had for the last season of the podcast with science journalist and author Catherine Price.

We're not calling a detox. What did we decide to call it...a breakup?

Well I call it breaking up with your phone and then making up with your phone

Her mantra is What for? Why now? What else? Remember that she said we should all try asking ourselves those questions every time you go to pick up your phone. What for? Why now? What else? I admit it's not easy putting it into practice. But I got to tell you, it's really worth doing. And she said part of the reason it's hard for people is because of how the social media algorithms are designed. They're sort of crafted like slot machines, she says, to keep people scrolling. So with all that in mind, how do we keep our kids safe online? What role do tech companies and the social media platforms themselves have in that work?

This technology is already being used by 95% of kids, Right. And I don't think that's realistic to put the genie back in the bottle here or to say somehow nobody should be using social media, that that's not the goal here.

The surgeon general has some suggestions when we come back.

And now back to Chasing Life and my conversation with the U.S. surgeon general, Dr. Vivek Murthy.

Let's talk about the policy a little bit. I've read the advisory. There's obviously there's five pages or so of potential concerns about harm, potential benefits as just a half a page. So that's it's clearly, you know, you're really truly sounding the alarm here. What if you if you could craft some dream legislation to help tackle these issues? Nothing tricky. You know, tricky politics, something that would just pass. Yeah. What would that legislation look like?

Well, it would look like having actual safety standards in place that help to reduce kids exposure to harmful content. Many kids are exposed to violence, sexual content online. That would reduce the likelihood that they experience bullying and harassment, and that was more easily reported reportable, and also that there was action taken to address it when it did arise. And third, it would look like also having in place restrictions on features that seek to manipulate kids into spending excessive amounts of time on these platforms. Look, one of things we have to worry about is that when kids are spending three and a half hours a day on average on social media as they are today, and many are spending many more hours than that, that's actually taking time away from critical activities like sleep and physical activity and in-person time with family and friends. And that's all part of what kids need for their growth and their development. But features that allow kids to use these platforms all throughout the night, that allow unlimited use, that create features like Infinite Scroll and and, you know, like buttons and others which keep them coming back, you know, to looking for more feedback. These are all features that particularly I worry prey on the the vulnerable brain of adolescence which we know the brain of adolescence. By the way, as you know, Sanjay, is more susceptible to peer suggestion, peer comparison and peer influence than the brains of adults. So safety standards in my mind would would focus on protecting kids from those harms, and they wouldn't be left up to manufacturers to completely police themselves. So we don't like leave it up to car manufacturers to determine whether or not they've hit the standards or not. We don't do that with medications either. There should be, you know, independent authority that parents can trust are looking primarily in solely out for the welfare of their kids, and they should be the ones who enforce these standards. So in my mind, that's what it would look like.

Why do you think it is that if a kid, a young person, is scrolling through their social media feed, that they are likely to end up with content that is violent, that is sexual, that is maybe about disordered eating, maybe they weren't even seeking that out. Like, just maybe it's hard to get into the heads of these platform makers. But why if you go online and you're looking for healthy recipes, might you end up being directed to a disordered eating sort of stream of content? What's what? Who benefits from that?

That's a good question, Sanjay. And I don't fully understand why such harmful content is coming to our kids. You know, there is a role that the algorithms have in driving people to this content. I've certainly had parents tell me that their kids have been served up content on social media that has been about self-harm. That's in fact not only walked their children through how to harm themselves, cut themselves, hanging themselves, take their own lives, but has in some cases even encouraged them to do so. And again, how commonly that occurs, what is actually done about it when it does occur. And this is where we need more transparency to understand what our kids are being exposed to. But but the bottom line is, you know, we we try to protect our kids from harmful content. You know, in the movies, on TV. Do we always get it right? No, not always. But we we put in place measures to try to protect our kids and we need to do something similar here. And finally, Sanjay, you keep in mind who we're talking about here. It's not just 13 and 14 year olds, right? Even though 13 is the age at which kids are technically allowed by the platforms or by most platforms to open up a social media account, we know 40% of kids eight through 12, eight through 12 are on social media. That means that whatever rules are in place are not nearly adequately enforced.

Enforcement's tough for teenagers, as you will find, Dr. Murthy. You know, as you get as your kids get older, what do you what what do you think about some of this? The legislation, like, for example, out of Montana to outright ban Tik Tok? The companies respond with the lawsuit, as you probably know. But leaving aside the geopolitical concerns about some of these platforms like Tik Tok, does banning them, does that solve the problems that you've outlined in the advisory, or are you in favor of that?

Well, yeah. You know, the actions taken in Montana, I recognize that. That seems to have been taken primarily for national security concerns. You know, putting that aside for a moment and just thinking about the health impacts here. My my goal and what I think would be ideal is to find ways that we can design these platforms to maximize benefit and minimize harm. And that means not only having companies thoughtfully, you know, work into the design and development process, you know, the kind of measures that will support health and well-being. But it also involves having real, you know, safety standards with teeth in place. You know, I think there's there's likely an age at which kids can use these platforms if they're safely designed.

Do you have an idea of what that ages? I mean, I know you say middle school for your kids, but it does seem arbitrary. I mean, why why middle school versus high school versus college? You know, I mean, Yeah, well, how do you how do you arrive at that?

So here's how we arrived at it for my family, because if you look at adolescence, which is a unique phase of development for kids, where their brain is under development, their relationships and their self-esteem is all under development, a time when, you know, they're particularly prone and sensitive to social comparison and social suggestion. That's a time where kids are vulnerable to the potential harms, and the time where they're most vulnerable is early adolescence, and that is middle school. So I would feel more comfortable, you know, if I had to, with an older adolescent using social media than a younger adolescent. And the experience is just different when kids are in high school, it doesn't mean that we still don't need more data and more say and safety standards in place for older adolescents. But but that's why I would try to protect kids at the at the younger end of the spectrum.

In medicine, we are trained to prepare for the worst and hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. And as a result, I think there's this tendency just in terms of our approach to to sort of catastrophize things and then triage from that standpoint. I worry a little bit, Vivek, that that that might be happening with social media as well. I get the potential harms here. I do. I have three teenage girls, as you know, so I've been living this for a while. But I also the, you know, we navigated this with was really no data and tried to, you know, do the best job we could as parents. And I find that there's been a lot of benefits that that the kids have have gotten from this as well. And they've educated me on this. And, you know, I think my tendency was initially, let's be very strict about this. Let's let's make sure we're setting some limits on how much you can use it. Let's wait as long as we can and all of that. But it was flying blind. And it seems like that is a message that also comes from organizations like American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Association. They raise concerns, but not nearly as forceful, I think, in their statements as you have been. They're sort of more equivocal. What do you what do you make of that when you have larger organizations like that who are saying, well, let's you know, it's out there, we're not necessarily sounding the alarm on it right now.

Well, so we work with actually a lot of these organizations and many of them, you know, have been supportive of the advisory, you know, as in the days, you know, after it came out. And I think that's because they, like other medical professionals, recognize that first and foremost, there is an absence of evidence around safety. And look, there are kids who are going to benefit from this. There are kids going to be harmed from it. That's part of what makes it complicated. You know, if it was an open and shut case like tobacco, this would be a much easier conversation. And the other thing that's challenging about it is that this technology is already being used by 95% of kids. Right. It's and I don't think that's realistic to put the genie back in the bottle here or to say somehow nobody should be using social media, that that's not the goal here. You know, and finally, I would just consider this to you know, Sanjay, there look, there have been other two times, you know, in history where new technologies have come on the on the scene and people have worried about them. They've, as you put it, catastrophize about them. Right. There were people who worried that the advent of radio was going to fundamentally and destroy civilization. The same about TV, Right. And sometimes I think people ask me, like, is this the same thing? Are we just overreacting to a new technology? But here's actually why I think this is different, because in all of those circumstances, while those technologies were transformative, is social media is pervasive in our children's lives and in our lives in a way that just wasn't true for prior technologies, like its ability to like many children, a third of kids, in fact, say that they're up till midnight or later, you know, on weekdays using social media. Many people say that their social media account and their screens are the first thing they look up in the morning, the last thing they see at night. Social media is just fundamentally different in terms of its pervasiveness, but also in terms of its design. So the way that we can now interact with one another on social media is a blessing in so many ways, not a feature of prior technology, but one that has a double edged sword of consequence. As if you will, because many young people tell me, like when I travel around the country while they are on one breath, talk about how, you know, they've, you know, enjoyed some of their experiences on social media in their own words. A very consistently say that it often makes them feel worse about themselves or worse about their friendships, but they can't really get off of it because they feel like they've constantly drawn in. You know, just to put it bluntly, I do not think we have done our job as a society to have the backs of kids and parents on this because we haven't moved fast enough to get the information to ultimately guide them on safe use.

How about the social media companies themselves? Have you had dialogues with them? How are they responding to an advisory like this?

I think look, I think most of the companies take all the companies that I've had any sort of engagement with directly or indirectly, you know, want kids to ultimately do well, I don't think anyone's out there intentionally trying to hurt kids. But I do think and I think some of them have been trying to introduce features to try to reduce or mitigate some of these harms. My concern, though, is just that I don't believe that it's enough. I don't think it's happening fast enough. And, you know, as a doctor, as somebody trained in science, as you and I both were, I want to see the evidence that shows me that these protections are, in fact, sufficient to mitigate harm to my kids and to other kids. And again, independent researchers say that they have a hard time getting that data and that data isn't quite there. So that's my concern.

You are the surgeon general, but you're a dad and here you're speaking from that perspective. I mean, it's it's I would dare say that it's the dad roles, probably your most important role in your life despite the fact that you're a federal official. What parents out there listening right now, they want guidance from the surgeon general on an issue that you've listed as being right up there with smoking and opioids and things like that. So what are some of your your tips, if you will, for parents who are trying to navigate this new world?

So first, I just want all parents out there to know that this is an incredibly difficult issue to manage for your kids. And if you're struggling, if you're having a hard time, if you have days where you feel like you made the wrong decision for your kid, please don't beat yourself up over that and know that a lot of other parents are in the same boat. They're dealing with this new evolving technology that a lot of people still don't fully grasp or understand. And so just don't don't be too hard on yourself. But there are some steps that we can take, you know, as parents to to start helping our kids, especially if they're already on social media. Number one is to start the conversation with your child about social media so you can learn how they use it, how they feel when they use it, and how you can also help them understand what's a safe and unsafe interaction or engagement on social media. We want our kids to know if they're being harassed or bullied, especially by strangers, that they should reach out for help. The second thing you can do as a parent is to identify spaces in your child's life that you can protect. What I think of as tech free zones. We know that for our kids, especially in adolescence, that sleep is critical. For them, physical activity is essential and in-person interaction is vital. So creating tech free zones around those activities, for example, having an hour before sleep and throughout the night when your kids can't use their devices, making dinner time or meal times, tech free zones, that can also help those kind of boundaries. And finally, I would say just to recognize that, you know, this is hard work to do alone, but when we partner with other parents, that can actually make it a bit easier.

My oldest daughter gave us parenting advice. She told us in retrospect that we probably should have kept her off of social media a little bit longer.

When I have kids of my own, if I don't think I want to let them be on social media as early as I was and I think I would want to teach them to be a little bit more responsible with their amount of usage, not what they view, how much they view.

Which was a hard thing to hear, you know, because you think you're being a good parent and you're trying to be very, you know, sort of liberal in terms of being permissive. And yet they're smart enough. They figure it out that, yeah, maybe there is a bit of a harm here and there would have been better to wait a little longer so now they can pass that message on to your kids.

Well and I appreciate that. And listen, just for you and Rebecca also, like I hope you're not harder on yourself about that either, because, look, the truth is when you when they started using social media, there were no guidelines telling you what the appropriate age is from a health perspective. Right. There was very little support available for parents. And I worry there still is. So I think, you know, you and Rebecca, parents across the country, people are trying to do the best they can with limited information. And that's what I think we've got to have there. Backs on this. And we've got to step up policymakers, tech companies and others, because we all want the same thing, which is to make sure our kids are healthy, that they're protected and they can thrive.

I've said this time and time again, and I think it's so true. Our kids did not ask for this world full of screens and social media, but it is the one that they have. And now we as parents have to figure out how to equip them with the tools they need to navigate this new landscape safely, a landscape that we did not grow up with. And so as parents, because we are in this unchartered territory, we need to get help as well. So I got to tell you, I do appreciate that the surgeon general is doing what he can to give us guidance. There is no one size fits all approach. But what I found is that having these honest, real conversations with your kids about social media and the potential dangers is really powerful, more powerful than you might realize. Explaining to them, for example, how to spot bad behavior and manipulation online and also letting them know it's okay to reach out if they're struggling. They're complicated conversations. They require patience, but it can really pay off. I've heard from so many of you, and I know that you're dealing with this issue every day. So the promise here is that we're going to continue to stay on top of this.

In the meantime, like I mentioned at the top of the episode, we are launching a new season of Chasing Life next week, which is all about our age and how we can live our best lives at any age. In fact, I asked the surgeon general something I've been asking all my guests as we prep for the new season.

How old are you and how old do you feel?

Well, I'm 45 years old and I feel...on most days I'd say I probably feel about 35.

That's good. Yeah, that's good.

We're going to get into that idea of subjective aging with top experts. We're also going to explore the unique struggles women face as they get older. The meaning of friendship at different stages of life. So fascinating and whether or not any life extending treatments actually work. We'll do a deep dive. You're also going to hear how a world class swimmer did the impossible at 64 years old, even after coming up short 35 years earlier. Again, you're going to hear much more about that right here next week. I think you're going to find those conversations really valuable. And I got to tell you, I can't wait to share them with you. Thanks for listening.

Chasing Life is a production of CNN Audio. Our podcast is produced by David Rhind. Xavier Lopez and Grace Walker, our senior producer and showrunner is Felicia Patinkin. Andrea Kane is our medical writer and Tommy Bazarian is our engineer. Dan Dzula is our technical director and the executive producer of CNN Audio is Steve Lickteig. Also, a special thanks to Ben Tinker, Amanda Sealy and Nadia Kounang of CNN Health.