And now from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN Audio, The Axe Files with your host, David Axelrod.

One of the quiet heroes of the 2020 post-election cycle was a folksy, colorful Arizona politician named Rusty Bowers. A rock ribbed conservative Republican, Bowers resisted enormous pressure from the president of the United States and his agents to overturn the state's results and send a pro-Trump slate of electors to Washington. It cost him his political career. I sat down with Bowers, one of the most interesting and engaging people I've met in politics just days before this week's election, in which the battle over election denial continued to rage in Arizona. Here's that conversation. Speaker Bowers, it's great to see you again. Thank you for being here. We got a chance to meet at the Profiles in Courage dinner a while back. But I want to I don't want to start with why you happen to be at the Profiles in Courage Dinner and what turn in life took you there? I first of all, I want to talk about your life from the beginning. Your family was part of the pioneer families that that made their way to Arizona. From Utah, huh? Mormon families.

Correct? Right.

And settled in Mesa?

No. They settled in the White Mountains and almost into New Mexico over St. John's was the first place. Then down to they settled a little, tiny little hamlet called nutrioso. And a brother, two brothers and one was in nutrioso, said the other one is an alpine. And my great grandfather lost three of his kids that winter. And we occasionally get to sneak up and see their graves and remember how tough life really was for a lot of people. And then they moved down here, then to the valley and got a half section down here near Mesa, under the hill. And that's where grandma really as a child, began to flourish, et cetera. But it was a different time for a lot of people, that's for sure.

Yeah. And Mesa was a different place.

Well, at first it was where they settled, was called Lehigh and is a that's the name of a figure in the Book of Mormon. But up on the Mesa, up above them was where they ultimately found that the long ago indigenous people had dug canals and it diverted water from the Salt River out onto that mesa to grow crops. So they followed the same canal pathways and were able to start irrigating. And that's where Mesa really took off. As far as taking off, it really didn't start till 1945, but and it was irritable land and they did an awesome work.

I'm interested in your folks. Your dad was an athlete.

My dad was the Iron Man of California all CIF. He ran track and mostly track in football in L.A. and he lived kind of close to his neighbor said they lived through the block from Jackie Robinson. Dad and Jackie Robinson would fight their way to school and fight their way home, one being African American, the other being Mormon. And so both on the outs with most other people. And they finally figured out they'd better fight their way, know, or just outrun everybody. So they they ran, but they really knew each other later in Pasadena Junior College, where they both played football.

Yeah. Yeah. What, did your dad share Jackie Robinson stories with you?

He did. Usually in connection with a racial point. In the day, you know, sixties, a lot of stuff going on nationally. And he would say, you know, I don't want any part of this stuff. And then he would say, I have a good friend, Jackie Robinson. And he had talked about football days. He was evidently his traveling companion when they would travel. Dad was his roommate and they had known each other years. And they just it was a good friendship. We have a in the yearbook, Jackie wrote something to the effect, to the swellest guy on the squad. And then it says, please tell your dad that that little incident in Compton was a lot of a lot of, you know, a lot of noise about nothing. And I'm going, what incident in Compton?

Did he explain?

No, he didn't. And dad never did. And so dad was- these guys were tough. I mean, these are tough men. And, you know, they carried themselves well, but they dad was a D.I. In the Marine Corps. You know, he was a coach then later in life here in the Scottsdale school system. And it was a lot of fun.

When I was ten years old or 11 years old, growing up in New York City, I decided that I wanted to volunteer for Nelson Rockefeller, who was running for governor of New York. I was of, you know, freakishly interested in politics as a little kid. And I went up there and they didn't know what to do with an 11 year old. So they said, well, we don't really have anything for you to do, but would you like to meet Jackie Robinson because he was a huge supporter of Nelson Rockefeller and he worked closely with them and he had an office at the campaign headquarters. So I went to serve, but I end up having this incredible experience of meeting Jackie Robinson, who couldn't have been kinder to a little 11 year old boy who wandered into his office. So yeah, and you guys, you all you're you and you I think you had a brother who played in the NFL or something. You, all of you became athletes.

Well, we all were athletically oriented because of our dad's influence. My older brother, Dan, came out to BYU. Went to camp, was drafted by the Lions. Never went beyond just the pre-game stuff where the the younglings got to play in the preseason stuff. But you said the whole atmosphere was pretty ribald for a LDS kid coming out from Utah. It got a little tough. So he came home and then his son Andy played here for the Cardinals for a little while, I think up for the Buffalo Bills a bit. You know, nothing big.

You had your moment in the sun. You you walked on and onto the BYU basketball team for a minute, right?

That's exactly right. Until I found out my girlfriend was dating some guy that I'd known in high school, I said, I ain't, that ain't gonna go. So I came home. Now I'm grateful to walk on two feet still and. And the basketball occasionally. That's about it.

Well, certainly, if you've played ball, then you're used to people throwing elbows. So that must have been good practice. For things you did later in life.

And I gave a few elbows too. I think I found out more than any other kid in state history when I walked in in high school. So I had my records, but they weren't in the scoring category.

Now, your mom was an artist.

Very artistic and drew and colored pencils, the kind of the Breck shampoo girls. She'd draw them in church and then hand it to me and say, draw that. And she did it to keep it quiet.

That doesn't sound that church like drawing the Breck girls in church. Was that was that allowed?

It wasn't chauvinistic. You know, there's a lot of, where we were in Chino. There's a little gray kind of a stone church that's now what? They've sold it through the years. It's things kind of like a hardware place, you know, like and I had when I got bored, I dove out the window and slid down the drainpipe and headed into the gate, though.

Yeah. But you did get imbued, whether it was through the genes or the fact that she handed you the Breck girls, you got imbued with that artistic passion.

My mother. No, this is later. She died eight years ago, so it's probably 15 years ago. I get a big, thick packet and I open it up and it's all these drawings through my youth, up through high school that she had kept and then she just sent them to me is a really a treasure and a lot of Snoopy cartoons and and things out of Arizona highways that I, scenes that I drew and copied and it just showed that how a mother is that sees something and supported it in me. I never took an art class until my senior year. You know, I was into basketball and I was in the choir like she really wanted me to be. She took me everywhere to sing weddings and, you know, receptions and public, the vets and stuff. I sang everywhere. That's probably how I got elected the first time. Just people knew me.

Oh, I thought because you were singing, did you sing at your events?

I have sung at some events. I have not the guitar and sing "I Love You Arizona" and that Lee Greenwood thing, "Proud to be an American." I sang those, yeah.

You apparently had like a quartet of senators who broke out the guitars from time to time in the Capitol.

We were very irreverent and nobody was immune. You know, it was kind of like the Capitol steps we made fun of everybody was a lampoon of the session back when having a sense of humor wasn't illegal as it is today. You know, there's always somebody who's going to shred you for, oh, look, he blinked his eyes when somebody was talking to him. You must not be paying attention, you know, it's like that.

I guess you also sketched some of your colleagues from time to time when you were sitting in hearings in the legislature.

Just this week. Just this week, days ago. My secretary said, I have a confession to make. My assistant, Shannon, she says, I've kept all this stuff that you threw away, were on your cheat sheets or whatever where you were doodling, and there were all kinds of humorous things of different people and some. I got what a David Schweikert that's a classic Yemen, an Apache helicopter, you know, showing Schweikert diplomacy.

He's obviously he's in Congress right now. So, I read that every sculpture, virtually every sculpture in the in the legislature, because you went on to become a very accomplished sculpture, not just an artist, that every sculpture in the Capitol has your name on it that you're you're you've- the Capitol is festooned with with Rusty Bower works.

Yeah, I can't I couldn't sell it anywhere else so I just made them take them.

But now seriously. Seriously, is that true?

No. Many of those, for example, the Polly Rosenbaum and Bill Hart piece that's on the wall was an initial this big, you know, reliefs was by the Arizona Mining Association. And some, one of my clients talked to them and they had me do that. And it was Polly Rosenbaum, who's the longest serving member of the House of Representatives, 46 years, I think, who talked me into running for office. She's a Democrat, Blue Dog Democrat. As I sculpted her, we talked and it was really enjoyable. And later I did a full bust of her and Bill. One was while I was a member, I think the other and while I wasn't. And then, you know, you get some and then other people saw something when Jake Flake died. I wasn't in the legislature at the time and a group of lobbyists asked me if I would do his bust. So then the they did the firefighter memorial across.

Jake Flake, is a former former speaker right. He was an and relative of Jeff Flake.

Right, his uncle.

He became a senator. Yeah. You think there'll be a bust of you there someday?

Probably only if I did it and sneaked it there. I'll say it was Carl Hayden and stick it up.

You spent your mission, your Mormon mission in Mexico. And you've you have a close relationship with Mexico. You've spent a lot of time there. You're fluent in Spanish. I read that you you hiked down the Copper Canyon in the Sierra madre Mountains and spent time there with the indigenous people in the canyon there. Talk about your relationship with Mexico.

Well, my brother had gone to on a mission there when I applied for review. There's a little box. Where would you like to go if you had your choice and you don't? But I wrote same place my brother went, and that's where they sent me. And it was a smaller mission, but I was blessed to really learn Spanish well and have a great love for the culture and the people which you develop there in the lives of people living, dying, learning, growing, repenting, doing all the things that people do. And afterwards, I loved that I went back painting with my family, a young family, when I came out of BYU and then really started becoming involved when I made that first trip down to the Copper Canyon. And there's a Frank Waters was an author, a Western genre back in the forties, fifties, sixties, became friend, friends with him. Talked to me about some places. Talked to Peter Schaffer, the head of U of A at the time, just called him cold turkey. I had written a book about the Tarahumara and the canyons and then saw a friend, John Cheryl Houser, who did the big sculptures in El Paso. But he started out right down there in the canyons, and I went down to try to find it and didn't. I had to come back to Tucson to find him. But going down there that first time. So 175 miles, the dirt road and the road had only been built for ten years. And it was one wild place that meeting Ramon Figueroa. And you can look him up. He's on the Internet, he makes violins, he's fantastic. But I introduced that guy to a windmill. They were very remote centric people. And I've been there 80 times since working with the foundation Tarahumara. It's a medical services. We we would collect and supply medical care, over the counter stuff mostly, but would take it down to clinics out in the mountains and then paint them as my themes for different sculptures and paintings and sold them through the main trio gallery in Scottsdale. And I love it. The last time we went, the drug influence was so strong and the threat of being kidnaped and things was so evident that I haven't been back down into those places. But I should I mean, I should break out and go. It was a life changing thing for me. There was a sculptor, Ernst Barlock, who pre Nazi German bathhouse trained, went to the steps of Russia and learned about real life, you know, survival, living, and changed his whole outlook on life. And that was me, you know, he came back and fell into disfavor with Adolf Hitler. And I came back and fell in disfavor with Donald Trump. So we have at least one similarity.

Well, let me let me ask you a question about that, because, you know, knowing your background and knowing how much time you've spent there, you know, you descended into the Copper Canyon, Donald Trump came down this gold escalator. And when he came down that escalator, he said really defamatory things about people who were coming from Mexico. And I was wondering how you at that time, how you processed that? Did it make you feel uncomfortable?

I thought it was gross. I mean, I knew living with people there whose children died of impetigo and whom I- I'm not a doctor, but I was the only person around would take antiseptic soaps and clean up wounds in their thighs and and try to help in any way I could. The local physician, who was hard pressed and met some of the most genuinely Christlike people who had given up their lives to go serve these very, very primitive in some ways of culture, but excellent in character and why they would leave. If their crops fail, they starve to death. And, you know, 40, 50 years ago when I was first introduced, it was shocking how I could see that we lived on Fantasy Island, you know, the Trump Tower, really? That's certainly not the world.

Politics is is hard. Politics is challenging. You know, you were a supporter of Trump.

I was.

Even in 2020. But how do you reconcile your discomfort with something like his attitude toward the Mexican people and the politics of Arizona and your politics?

I don't try to blend them. There's a saying somewhere, if you see a good man, you try to be like him. You see a bad man, you look at yourself. And there were things- I supported Ted Cruz in the primaries. I voted for Trump simply because he might change the Supreme Court. And he did. And the first part of his administration, there was a lot of good things working in the environment arena that I did in the legislature. It streamlined, permitting, and I mean, it was a sea change. But when COVID hit, the one continuity, the one continuum was a very bad attitude with a tweet and a cell phone that the president demonstrated on every contrary criticism he received. And I just thought, can you just put that thing away? You know, ignore it and get back to work? But there was a whole lot of people that just that just started a feeding frenzy, you know, and a culture in the politics complex. And so ultimately, I knew that there was a lot of people, typically young, younger women, 18 to 40, small children, professional, educated, that didn't vote for him the first time. And as we came around to the second time wanting a return to the good part of his administration, I was supportive and we tried to push the very excellent colleagues that I had- women, professional, educated- and we started to see that needle change. But at that first debate, when he went against Biden and just it was just childish and juvenile and profane, and I thought that's exactly the guy that those women will not vote for. And unfortunately for him, they had the ballots in their hands in Arizona and 60,000 of them left him blank. And then all Republican down ticket and 18,000 voted for Biden in an all Republican down ticket. So they agreed with me. If you just learn how to roll with the punch and laugh at yourself, you'd be president. But he didn't. And that attitude carried over after that enormously when he started pushing the steel image. Rudy and others, to my knowledge, yeah.

We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. I read that politics was very much discussed around your house, but I'm interested in the in how you made the transition from painting and sculpting legislators to being one. You know, and I read two origin stories. One was that that the county okayed the construction of a shooting range next to your home, and that you were really angry about the fact that they had overrun you and some of your neighbors in wanting to put it there. Another was that a friend of yours made you a bet that you wouldn't run for the legislature.

Both of those are true.

Yeah, they're not mutually exclusive. So tell me about that. The decision to actually run for office.

First, the gun range. It wasn't that they built it is that they didn't tell anybody. And there was, you know, this mentality, if you can't see the gun going off, you can't hear it. So that really showed me a political thing that I thought was improperly done and contiguous with that. The representative for our area, Stan Barnes, well-known figure here locally was running, had left the House, was running for the Senate and opening up a spot and my L.D. chair at the time was trying to talk me into running for a precinct committee and lined out all the responsibility. I said, If I'm going to do all that, I'm as well run for office. And she said, well, Stan's moving, I dare you to take his place. And I said, you dare me? Yeah, I don't think you can get the signatures. I said, when do I have to have them? She says, Two weeks. How many? Oh, 400 plus. I said, you got it. I'm going to see if I could do that.

Now, we should point out for just so people aren't confused, L.D. means legislative district. It's not LDS, it's it's L.D. It's it's it's a different thing. You went to the legislature and you served and you had two chapters of your public career in the first chapter, you spent half in the House, half in the Senate. One of the things that came up and, you know, it's interesting, the gun range story is that you are chairman of the Environmental Committee in the House and you have a very strong view on these environmental issues. As you said, you said you you liked what Trump did. You liked the deregulation. You don't want the intrusion. You know, there are a lot of people, environmental advocates, who say, you know, he's a great guy. You know, he obviously has an appreciation for nature because he paints it. He has an appreciation for the environment. But there are people who don't want toxic materials near their home. There are people who are concerned about, you know, a range of environmental issues because they're in their neighborhood, just like the, shoot, the gun range was in yours and that you were uniformly on the other side of those issues.

No, I wasn't. The challenge is, is that everybody wants you in a box. I call it ivanizing. I want to Ivan you. I want to identify my villain, vilify my villain, associate my villain with other villains in order to neutralize my villain. And I'm big time about being a good steward. I am a good steward, but I realize that there has to be a balance. I have to have money in order to clean up a toxic waste dump. And I like a fairness and equity in law, which led me to lead the largest environmental effort in Arizona, the Superfund effort to change our Superfund structure away from the old law, your grab bag to a something more oriented towards your personal responsibility. What you personally did, your company or you you are responsible for not the broader legal framework that is used nationally. And we were successful and it's been successful, but it, like everything else, takes money to make money. You got to get taxes to get taxes. You got to have business. To get business, you have to have work. And in my background of mining and et cetra, there has to be a balance in making sure you're not ruining the place for future generations and cleaning up and making safe where you have been. But you certainly need to have extraction industries that are successful and so many want no extraction. Save the planet. And I could do like they do and exaggerate the points, you know, back to living in caves and wrapping yourselves in Yucca branches. But that's that's not going to happen. But we do have to have that balance. When we had an initiative to stop the growth in Arizona, I was against it. And I said, right then you don't need to put a circle around growth in Arizona. You just need to wait till they run out of water. Guess what?

We're here. Yeah.

And so it's causing us all to reassess an environmental issue on where's the balance between rights and responsibilities. And that's that's big to me. I tried to make it work and be protective, but give people a chance to express their rights also to pursue their happiness. So there's a balance there.

Why did you decide to leave the legislature in 2001 you you were there for about, what, nine, ten years and you decided to quit?

There was some personal things happening in my family that were that opened up one of my children to. We could see that if it were, it could really go awry, which has proven itself even lately with her demise. But also my wife. We were maybe I can't remember at the time. I think we're making 18,000 a year and I had seven children.

Mm. Yeah, yeah. I can do the math.

And she was rolling credit cards to keep the principles down. But I just said, wow, we're in a tight spot. And somebody just said, Look, there's an opening with the Arizona Mining Association or Rock Products Association and would you be interested? And they hit me right in the wrong day. I mean, I was my wife was just really worried. And I said, you know, maybe I should. And at the same time, we had a 15-15 split in the Senate between Ds and Rs. And one of our Rs had left us and gone over and made a deal with the Ds and become the president. And he was just making my life miserable. So I said, Well, let's take the deal and get my family back on track, which we did.

And you came back in 2014 to the legislature, ran for the House again. You've got term limits there, which is why you were you would shift from chamber to chamber. So you came back to the House. And by 2019, you were speaker of the House. And most speakers of the Arizona House would not become nationally known. You probably wish that you were one of them who did not become nationally known. So let's talk about this experience. You began to talk about this. You talked about the election in 2020 in Arizona, which became sort of ground zero for the whole debate about the election that that the president started really before the election and and then after. And your story really began in earnest on November 22nd of 2020. And the the reason, not just that I just read up on you. But the date of the Kennedy assassination. So November 22nd, just stuck in my head. And you got a call from the president and Rudy Giuliani, and talk a little bit about that call I know you did at the hearing, but give us the essence of it.

We were just returning from church services. Fact I had to sing in church that day and it went well. I felt like I'd done good. And we pulled into church, I mean, into the driveway. And Karen Fann, the Senate president, called. We had been discussing how to make an audit work, to reestablish trust, our hope, etc. and and then she called. I thought maybe about our decisions about an audit and she said that the White House had called try to get in touch with her and that she guess they would probably be trying to get in touch with me and that we should make sure that whatever we do, we're arm in arm, that we're not split. And I said, whatever news to me, great. She hangs up and immediately the Bluetooth says, you know, the White House. So I pick it up and Donetta stepped out of the car and on its side and it was Rudy, after the secretary put me through, it was Rudy and he, you know, gives these compliments. Great job. All this glad handing stuff. And then the president came on and similarly, some niceties. You said, you know, you're doing a great job, we're proud, you're blah, blah, blah. And and I said, Well, Mr. President, I got to thank you. When I went to sleep on Newt on election night, I didn't think I was going to be speaker. I thought I'd pull out the election for my membership, that the elections were going bad for my side and the people that were supporting me and my speakership against, of all things, Mr. Finchem.

And now running for secretary of state, yeah.

Yeah. And I then when I woke up in the morning, it was just the opposite. Big time wins all over the legislature. But I'm sorry. Not for you. And then Rudy says, well, we ought to talk about that. There's a lot of fraud in your state. And I braced myself thinking, okay, here we go again. And and he gives these enormous numbers of illegal-

200,000 illegal immigrants, he said, right?

It might have been.

6000 dead people.

Yeah, things like that. I'm not saying those were the exact numbers, but I'm thinking it was pretty close to those of numbers. But it was tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of others. And I said, look, okay, that's a big story. And so why are we here talking? What's the ask? And the president says, Rudy, what's the ask? And he says, Well, we would like to have a committee to refer and review this stuff publicly in a in a bona fide committee. Now my committee chair on federalism issues was Mr. Finchem. And he had already showed that he was he was milking this thing like he had the Covid-19 challenges, anything against me. And I wasn't about to let a circus get turned loose from what had happened in the previous three weeks. And so I said, look, I'm not interested in a circus. They said, Well, you know, we would very much like to have this open and we don't want to keep this stuff under the rug, blah, blah, blah, trying to do a pitch on me. And I said, but what's the end? What end? What do- you do have these names, right? He goes, yeah. Do you have like names of the 200,000 illegal aliens and the 6000 dead people and blah, blah, blah, others people who weren't in the state, such? And he said, yes, we do. I said, you can bring those to me. Yes, yes. I said, well, but why? What's the end result that you're aiming for? So you get a hearing. What and what's the ask, Rudy? Says the president, and he says, well, we understand from a highly placed member of the legislature that there's a law that would allow you, you rhetorically, you to throw out or set aside the Biden electors and replace them with Trump electors. You know, if we could show the proof, etc. and I said, now that's a new one. I have not heard that one anywhere. And I said, no wait. I took an oath that I wasn't going to do anything- I told you earlier and I had told- I voted for you, walked for you, campaigned for you. But I won't do anything illegal for you. Nothing. And the president said, I don't want you to. Not asking you to. That was kind of a prelim to the conversation.

Do you think he said that because he wanted that noted?

I would. I'm glad to note it. He did say it. And so but I said, you're asking me now to do something that I feel is against my oath. I took an oath to the Constitution, both of national and to my state, and to obey the laws of my state. I'm not going to break those oaths. And they said, well, you know, I said, which one of those do you want me to break? He said, well, you owe your allegiance to the national Constitution. I said, all this is great. This is a great conversation, but something of this magnitude I will not even consider without the proof. And I want that proof to my lawyers and my lawyers get this bill and I'm going to try to give you their number right now. So you got it in mind. I think I can do this on this phone. And I said, Mr. President, I can't use this iPhone. I'm bad with it. I can't even tweet like you can. And it'll be me telling my grandkids that I hung up on the president of the United States try to pull this off and he says, well, go for it. And they were kind of chuckling. And I did. And I did. I hung up. Rudy called back and he was laughing. He said, There is a president that does pretty funny. I said, I think it's pretty funny. It wasn't intentional, but it did. And I said, but I want truth, Rudy, this is a big deal. Now I got to have the proof. And he said, we'll get it to you. I said, you call my lawyer. "Will do." I said, I'm not I'm not kidding. You got to call my lawyer and I got to have this discussion. And he never did. Never called the lawyer. Lawyer tried to get in touch with them, never made contact. And I've talked to him later. That was how that all that conversation went down.

When you as you tell that story I'm thinking, what are you thinking? Here you are, Rusty Bowers. Yes, you're speaker of the Arizona House. But all of a sudden, you're sort of at the hinge of history here. And you've got the president of the United States on the line asking you to do something that you that you felt really, really uncomfortable.

I'd say uncomfortable is an understatement. I'm thinking you wan to throw the election, the presidency of the United States? I'm going to do that to my state? After all the stuff we've been through out here with COVID and a host of other issues. Now I'm going to say I'm going to be, you know, Don Quixote. No.

Yeah, but it's it's isn't it intimidating to have the president of the United States call you and lean on you to do anything, much less this? I mean, did you I'm just trying to get a sense of-

I never felt like these guys are going to hurt me if I don't do anything. What's the downside? I thought, whoa, I'm talking to the president of the United States. You know, I've talked to George Bush, but he was on his way up, not afterwards. But I mean, we were just talking. I was just, me to him, two grown ups. And I thought, this is a big deal. This is a big deal.

And he he did end up hurting you in that he ended your- he effectively ended your political career. You were running for the Senate again because you were term limited and you ended up losing by 30 points in your primary. But I, worse than that. Worse than that. And you heard from other people. You heard from Justice Thomas, his wife, Jenny, who said.

No, no, no. She never talked to me.

No. But she sent you an email.

Yes, she did.

And it said, you know, sent send a clean slate of electors. And I don't know what what did you interpret clean slate to mean?

I knew exactly what they want.

Yeah. Yeah.

They wanted a version of an elector.

Did that surprise you, by the way, to hear from her?

Yeah, I thought it was weird. I had never thought that Justice Thomas would have a relative. I don't even think I realized at the time, well, she was still somebody said, hey, that's Justice Thomas' wife. Said woah, she's getting into this, you know, but I had a lot of things that I didn't sit and dwell on that much. I had 20,000 emails a day for.

Yeah, I think when I met you, you gave me some code or something to use because you couldn't to separate me from the hordes of people who were calling. You know, just to tell you what a what a fine human being you were. Uh huh. But yeah, you heard from as the date wore on to January 6th, you heard from John Eastman, who's now famously entwined in this whole insurrection business. You heard from Andy Biggs, who's a congressman very close to Trump, all asking again that you send an alternative slate of electors.

And Rudy and Jenna and their entourage.

Jenna Ellis, the lawyer for Trump.

When they came to the Senate after their hearing, the public hearing that the Mr. Finchem called and had down at the at the hotel. Yeah, I heard from them, too. And it was a review of the conversation we'd had earlier, all the charges of fraud. Thankfully, some senators really lit into him and then he says, You know, I'm a Republican. I thought we were all Republicans here. I thought we'd get a little nicer reception, tried to, you know, set us back. It wasn't working for us. We just said, you're asking us this is a big deal. And then I hit him. I said, You know, I've listened here for a while. Did you bring me my proof? And he did the famous Dodger thing and passed it to Jenna. And she passed it to the hotel room. And I said, okay, it's been great. I'm going to be leaving, so good to see you. Bye. And I stood up and left. And so there were several conversations. Also, Nelson from Montana, the professor. He didn't advocate, he just was just laying out the possibilities. But he said, I've been in politics before. And and I said, so what's your advice? He said that it won't work if you think you can get away with this, go for it And Eastman was, you know, let the courts take a shot at it, you know, just punt it. Anyway.

In addition to the emails, there was real unpleasantness. People marching on your home and they were marching at your on your home at a really difficult time. You referenced earlier your daughter Casey and her struggles. And those struggles were in their final chapter when this was all going on and she was living in your home. You were caring for her. You and your wife were caring for her. That must have been excruciating.

Well, I'd go through all of 50 times, but yeah, God has his plans and the life comes at you. And yeah, it was tough. But I've thought many times since how many people in America in the last two years have lost loved ones and have gone through terrible things. It has given Donetta and I an empathy. A level of empathy we had never known. For other people and their suffering, which I think is a blessing.

Can you tell me about Casey? Because I read, you know, that she was in the giving world. She you know, she was very caring person and sounded like a lovely person.

She was a beautiful woman and very athletic. Played at the college. And her older sister were, it was shocking to me to watch these women so nice walk up there at six pack their opponent, turn around just like tigers. But she had challenges at the same time. Lecherous men. I'll just leave it at that. And as she fought her way through these challenges and got her degree in counseling, she wanted to help other women who are similarly affected and had some big setbacks, but ultimately got her and her cousins, three cousins, all female, a little practice. And they opened it and they each had their certificates of different areas and they were so happy. And that came down hard when they found out. We think the bookkeeper was was billing in excess of the hours because they didn't get the books. They had hired it out anyway. The upshot is, is that it really threw her for a spin and and she gave up and we would try to keep her going, but she just couldn't do it. So it was hard. And her son now is up at Southern Utah University, is trying to he wants to play in football. And and so we're trying to be poor replacements and keep it up, you know, the family, that's what it is. And and we're grateful for what we've learned through it all.

You imply I mean, I. I don't know. I don't know I don't know the details of this. And I don't want to invade your privacy or her privacy. I talk a lot about mental health issues, mental illness struggles that people have, substance abuse problems and so on on this podcast. I lost my dad to suicide, so I feel really strongly about talking about it. But it sounds like she had she had those struggles.

She had them and was trying to help others with them. She did her best. And she was loved and admired. And many of her clients, she helped them and just took so much joy in being able to help them. She had her little two rooms full of clothes that she could travel all over, get people to donate for the give all the sizes so that when the women came in, she could dress them up and do their hair and help them. And it was a precious thing those last four months were her best before before things kind of came apart.

Yeah, well, I can't even tell you how sorry I am for your loss. I have kids and grandkids of my own, and I can't imagine a harder thing. We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. I want to ask you about your state now. You know, we're recording this before the election there. Mark Finchem, who is the guy who you talked about who was on the point for Trump in trying to overturn the election in Arizona, is now very much in contention to become secretary of state with the responsibility of administering elections in your state. Kari Lake, who's the Republican candidate for governor, ran on a platform that the election had been stolen. And as we sit here today, a week before the election, she won't say whether she'll accept the results of the election. You must be watching this with horror.

Well, a large amount of disappointment. But the people that elected the election deniers are impervious to being educated. There's Cormac McCarthy, favorite author. A real creature can't learn that which its heart has no shape to hold. And there's only one way to hold it. And that's anger and vengeance. It's like, wow, in a political sense. So we don't need proof. We just feel and it doesn't matter what proof is presented. Like Finchem was on that program last night when they showed him, you know, there was 12 actions taken against people for tampering or abusing ballot privileges and four of those convictions for ballots in Maricopa County out of, what, three and a half million? Three or four times.

Yes. And Biden won by 11,000 or so.

Doesn't matter. It's a defect in the system. And I think if that's the mentality that the oh, I will never give up my position that I've taken here. I won't admit, you know, I should relook at this. Nothing. It's all full speed ahead and it's playing to a very energized, that's a nice term, base. And they they don't want to hear anything about proof because it doesn't exist. But I just focus on Mr. Finchem knowing what I do about the man and the bills that he's passed and the things that he's done and said. It is a concern that he would write the next election manual and send it to a election denier attorney general, who could send it to an election denier governor, and it would become the guidance document for elections. Now, I think if that happened, that this place would just be a lie with recall and a whole bunch of other stuff. And there is a legislature and I don't think that a good half of the Republicans in a solid core or solid phalanx of Democrats are going to let this stuff go by without taking some action. So it just it just looks like a mess in the making and a worst case scenario. Now, if they're all elected, are they going to turn around and say, see, it was fraudulent? I'm guessing they'll say no.

Well, that is the principle, isn't it? If you don't like the result, then you.

Scream foul.

Right. You spent 30 years of your life off and on in this world of politics and government, what are the implications for democracy?

It's interesting because so many people have called me from around the world and interviewed me. Almost all the European countries.

Mm hmm. Everyone's looking at America.

And they do it. And I ask them that. Why is this so important? Why are you talking to me? I mean, who am I? I'm nobody. And they say. I'd say, did you ever hear about me before any of this? They go, of course not. I said, that's right. They said, but it's where you are and what you did and what that means to all of us, that we've already been down this this slide before. And we know that if America doesn't stay strong, we're next, and that things that happen in America have ripples here and they're big ripples. So we're very concerned. And as Americans, you know, we swing with whatever the social media of the day says. But for many around the world, this is like big stuff. And so I think it's in many ways, people are starting to get it, it's taken a lot of work. And I'm optimistic that enough people will hold the line and demand that the republic be maintained with its Democratic voting underpinnings and that we can, we will survive. If you don't have the optimism, you can't motivate action. And so I'm hanging in.

And what's next for you? You'll be leaving office at the end of the year. Obviously sculpting and painting. Is one answer. But do you see yourself continuing to speak out on these issues?

Yeah, I will speak out. I don't know if there'll be a platform to speak from. I don't know if I'll have a pulpit, but I will do the things I love to do and I love to serve in a host of ways. And if an opportunity came, I am especially concerned of a localized issue in the West. That being water.

Yes.

And wanting to push through what we've been able to accomplish thus far to a successful structural long term solution. And so I may be involved. But to do that, there's people that have to ask me. And they may know, you know. So I get it.

Well, I'll say this. You have spent a lifetime creating things and you can create your own platform as well. You've got the standing to do it. But I just want to thank you. I want to thank you, because I care deeply about this democracy. And the reason we've survived thus far is because there were people at key moments who were willing to stand up and say, no, I believe more deeply in this democracy than than I do in party loyalty or other considerations. And I'm going to draw the line here. You did that. I was proud to sit at your table at the Profiles in Courage dinner, and I can't think of a more deserving person to have received that award. So it's an honor to be with you. Pleasure to be with you. I look forward to talking more down the line.

Thank you very much. I'm honored to be with you and I hope that we can do good together in the future.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening to The Axe Files brought to you by the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN Audio. The executive producer of the show is Allyson Siegel. The show is also produced by Miriam Fender Annenberg, Jeff Fox and Hannah Grace McDonald. And special thanks to our partners at CNN. For more programing from the IOP, visit politics.uchicago.edu.