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Books Chat


F.W. de Klerk

Former South African president

June 11, 1999
Web posted at: 1:00 p.m. EDT

The following is an edited transcript of a Chat with special guest F.W. de Klerk, former South African president, who discussed the politics of South Africa and his new autobiography.



Chat Moderator: Thank you Mr. de Klerk for joining us today.

Chat Moderator: Your book is an autobiography. Is this something you planned to write for a long time?

F.W. de Klerk: I did not particularly plan to write it for a long time, but was stimulated by an approach from a well-known publisher, shortly after I left the government of National Unity in 1996. When I fully retired, I decided to make it my immediate task, before getting involved in other activities.

Chat Participant : Mr. de Klerk: As education minister, you supported segregated universities. What, exactly, made you change your mind?

F.W. de Klerk: The universities were never fully segregated in South Africa. But there was a form of control, mainly on a linguistic basis. The principle involved, which is still relevant in all multicultural societies, is whether it is not best for pupils at school level especially to be educated through the language medium which they best understand. Part of the problem of the low passing rate of black pupils in South Africa relates to the fact that they have to write exams in mathematics and science, for instance, in a language which is not their home language, and they are taught those difficult subjects in a language which is not their home language. So I still believe that we owe it to children especially and that we owe to students an option to be taught in the language of their choice and not to force them into a language medium which makes their task doubly difficult.

Chat Participant : Welcome Mr. de Klerk.... great to have the chance to speak to you! If you had the opportunity of reliving your life, what would you do over again?

F.W. de Klerk: I've written in my autobiography, which is now being launched in the States, that all the major decisions that I took throughout my life I would have taken again, even with the advantage of hindsight. I would have studied law, I would have entered politics. At the age of 37, I would have supported the change program and transformation process in South Africa. I would have unbanned the ANC and released President Mandela when I did, and I would have acceded to the negotiated new constitution in South Africa even though it was not perfect from my point of view. Obviously I also with hindsight can recognise where I made mistakes, and I also list them in my book.

Chat Participant : Not really true Mr. De Klerk. Universities were "harshly" segregated.

F.W. de Klerk: There was a permit and a quota system, but the University of Capetown and the University of Wipwatersrand always accommodated students of colour. Furthermore, under National Party government, four new universities were started which were, at that stage, rejected as creations of apartheid. Today, President Mandela is the chancellor of one of those universities, Deputy Chancellor Mbeki is the president elect of South Africa and will be inducted in June, and other leaders of the ANC are also involved in those universities which gives tuition to many thousands of South Africans. Everything from the past is not bad.

Chat Participant : I would like to hear Mr. de Klerk's opinion of the incoming president.

F.W. de Klerk: I got to know him well. We served for two years as co-deputy presidents the government of National Unity. He is a good administrator. He will lead the cabinet well. He has a capacity to in argument listen well and get to the core of a problem. He has good insights into the economy, and therefore, although I don't support his political party, I think he has the capability to become a good president. Provided that he rises above the temptation to be too much the politician. South Africa is still in the process of transformation, and therefore requires leadership by a president who can unite our nation behind common goals.

Chat Moderator: In the 1960s, the South African government "forcibly moved more than 3 million people" from their land and homes. How did that action differ from the actions of Slobodan Milosevic?

F.W. de Klerk: Nobody was moved from a home into anywhere. The removals were coordinated and people were removed to new areas where housing was provided, where care was taken that there would be job opportunities, and where they could make a good life. I am not saying that forced removals were the right thing. And I have apologised for the pain and the hurt that many rules of apartheid has brought. Forced removals were part of this, but it can in no way be compared with what has happened in Kosovo. There was never genocide under apartheid, and apartheid had a side of social development and upliftment which was never recognised internationally, but which in actual fact, quite often, greatly benefitted black South Africans in their day to day lives.

Chat Participant : Mr. President: What lessons would you like the next generation of South Africans, both black and white, to learn from your experiences in life and in government?

F.W. de Klerk: There are a number of lessons which can be identified. Let me just define a few. Firstly, that there is no solution through the barrel of a gun or by throwing of hand grenades. We found our solutions through negotiation, open discussion, and only when from all sides there was a preparedness not only to take but also to give. A second lesson is that discrimination in whatever form must at all costs be avoided. A third lesson is that we need to cultivate a culture of tolerance in divided societies, in multicultural societies, and we need to cultivate a culture of respect for authority and the law.

Chat Participant : How did apartheid "uplift" black South Africans?

F.W. de Klerk: By creation of opportunities, by the investments of billions of rand that created job opportunities, by the constant expansion of an education system at primary school level, at secondary school level and at tertiary level. By the provision of housing on an impressive scale. By economic empowerment. In the last thirty years, there's been a tremendous shift in the share in the economy from white to black in South Africa. Today black South Africans are the greatest buyers of so-called "white" goods. fridges, stoves, television sets and the like. I could carry on with a long list explaining that there was development, that in one generation the literacy rate has grown tremendously to the extent that today all children who reach the school-going age can go to school.

Chat Participant : Do you think the trend of 'white flight' will continue, and if so what impact will that have on the economy?

F.W. de Klerk: At the moment, there is definitely an alarming rate of emigration, mostly by whites, but even by coloured and Indian South Africans. There are two main reasons for this. The one is an unacceptably high crime rate. The other is what I would like to call "unbalanced" affirmative action. I support affirmative action. I believe it is necessary. But if affirmative action is applied in a way which amounts to a new form of racial discrimination, then it has the effect of driving people away because they begin to believe that a ceiling is put upon them and they will be denied opportunities. This is unfortunately what has been happening. I am confident that the phase of unbalanced affirmative action is near to its end, and that there is a realisation that our country needs all the talent it can muster if we are to succeed.

Chat Moderator: How did religion play a role in the government's actions against the ANC?

F.W. de Klerk: Religion played a constant role and there was a time when the churches in their interpretation of the Bible found ways and means of justifying not the hurtful part of apartheid but justifying the concept of separate development and separate but equal. Today also those churches which justified it thus are saying that they were on the wrong road. And have changed their stance in this regard.

Chat Participant : What was the moral basis for apartheid?

F.W. de Klerk: I supported the policy of separate development, apartheid, when I was a young man because its intention was to build on the basis of historic realities a number of nation-states in South Africa. It aimed at giving full political rights to all black people in South Africa on the basis of their nationhoods, to the Zulus in an own country called Zululand, the Xhosas in a country called Dranskeai and Ciskei and likewise to the other approximately 7 distinct black nations in their own territories. The vision was, further, that these states together with a white state would be joined together in a confederation something like the European Union. That was morally justifiable. Even today, the whole world supports territorial separation on the basis of ethnicity as the best solution for Israel and Palestine, and as a matter of fact as the best solution for Kosovo.

Chat Participant : What do you have to say to those Afrikaners who favor the creation of a Volkstaat, a white homeland? Are they living in the past?

F.W. de Klerk: Yes. It is an unattainable dream because of economic realities, because of the demographic spread of black and white South Africans throughout South Africa, and because of the interdependence which has grown between black and white. We all need each other and there is no corner in which whites can live in seclusion.

Chat Participant : Based on SA's past, and considering the last two elections, do you think that the ANC stands to be challenged by ANY party in the next decade, if it continues with its unextraordinary performance?

F.W. de Klerk: Yes, I definitely think that a more credible challenge will develop. I expect a fairly fundamental realignment in South African politics over the next five to ten years. This realignment will be based on values and principles, and will break the mold of the historic party/political divisions. And a footnote, without denigrating the ANC's performance, I don't agree that they are performing extraordinarily well. Unemployment has grown, the crime rate has risen, they had to admit that they did not keep their election promises of 1994, they failed dismally to reach their targets of building new houses, and though it is not reflected in the election results, I sincerely believe that in the next election, if there is not delivery on the part of the government, the public will not vote on old loyalties but on what is in the perception of their own interests.

Chat Participant : Do many people in South Africa still support the old apartheid system?

F.W. de Klerk: The answer to that is "no." The parties which in some way or another still held on to tentacles of apartheid have been totally demolished in the past election. That does not include the National Party, which has totally abandoned apartheid and separate development, which took the initiative to bring about the new dispensation, and has become the most non-racial party in South Africa if you analyse its support base.

Chat Participant : Mr. de Klerk, is your origin Dutch?

F.W. de Klerk: I devote a full chapter at the beginning of my book. All of us Afrikaaners are of mixed European origin. In my case, the dominant factor was French Huegenot, 50 percent if I look at grandparents, 25 percent Dutch and 25 percent Austrian. The breakdown which is generally accepted is that the Afrikaaners can trace their origin back to the extent of 37 percent Dutch, about 21 percent French, about 18 percent German, and the rest to other European nations and also, obviously in growing terms over the years, also with some intermarriage between Anglophiles and Afrikaaners.

Chat Moderator: Did Mandela change so South Africa could accept him, or did South Africa change?

F.W. de Klerk: I think all of us changed. Each and every South African, black and white, Mandela and me, and our parties went through a period of fundamental change where we all had to relinquish the points from which we started and where we had to, through a process of give and take, arrive at new destinations.

Chat Participant : What can be done to reduce the crime rate?

F.W. de Klerk: Foremost, we need to upgrade the effectivity of the criminal justice system. We need better policing, more effective prosecution in the courts, more effective management of our penal system, and better coordination between all the arms of the criminal justice system. Secondly, we need greater community involvement in the fighting of crime. Thirdly, and this is a more medium and long-term challenge, we have inherited from the conflict of the past on a fairly broad basis a culture of disrespect for the law and for authority. Without passing a judgement, it is a fact that many young black South Africans were taught that they are heroes if they break the law. They were taught to disrupt the education system under the slogan, "Liberation before Education." The result is that there are hundreds of thousands who did not use the opportunity to be educated, and are consequently are not sufficiently trained to earn a decent living in the new South Africa. I therefore think that adult education and re-education is part of the social action, which is needed to fight crime.

Chat Participant : Sir, do you live in South Africa at present? Why don't you play an active role in promoting investments in S.A.? Enter the commercial sphere. You are needed there.

F.W. de Klerk: I am living in South Africa, and I will continue to live there. I'm an African, I'm not a European. Furthermore I am active in promoting the interests of South Africa in a non-party political way. Just last night I addressed a powerful group of potential investors and investing consultants, and my message to them was a positive one, and a message to invest in South Africa.

I am on the verge of launching a foundation which will have as one of its aims to mobilise civil society, which includes the private sector, churches, and non-governmental organisations. I want to mobilise them and act as a catalyst in getting them to come onto the playing field and to become even more involved in reaching out to the disadvantaged and in creating more opportunities and new horizons for all our people.

Chat Participant : How many South Africans do you think left the country?

F.W. de Klerk: I don't have the exact percentages, and I don't think that we have correct statistics because apart from those who formally apply for immigration and formally apply to foreign countries to settle there, there is amongst the young people in South Africa a lot of what I like to call "informal immigration." After completing their studies they go to England, to Australia, to Canada, and many of them find the living there and after a year or two there decide not to return to South Africa.

Chat Participant : What is the main cause of unemployment, in your opinion? And the government's opinion?

F.W. de Klerk: There are two main causes. The one is, and I don't think the government agrees with me, is that our labour legislation is too rigid, and not suited to a developing country. The government says in its economic policies that we need a more flexible system, but thus far have failed to make the system more flexible. The other cause is that our economy is not growing fast enough. There is consensus that we need an economic growth rate of about 5 percent in real terms. And even after all the sanctions have been lifted, we are not achieving that target and remain well below. We need new investment on a grand scale in order to create the necessary jobs, and we need to do the right things to build confidence amongst investors that it will be safe to invest in South Africa. This is the main task of the South African government, and it is also a task of all South Africans to build that confidence.

Chat Participant : Do you think the National Party needs an infusion new leadership after the dismal showing in the recent polls?

F.W. de Klerk: I think that the National Party has good leadership, the new leader who succeeded me has had bad press initially, but he has earned the respect for the way in which he conducted the campaign. I think what is needed is not new leaders, it is for the leaders of like-minded parties who actually support the same policies and principles to stop cutting each other's throats and to find ways and means to cooperate, to promote the similar causes for which they stand together. We need, and the NP says that, a new political movement to grow which will be value-based and value-driven and which can bring like-minded South Africans together in one political movement, also across the colour line.

Chat Participant : Do you genuinely believe that apartheid resulted in a "separate but equal" policy? In what way were the black South Africans afforded equality, in your opinion?

F.W. de Klerk: The answer to that is no. It has failed to bring real equality. We had in the late '80s the guts and the honesty to admit that failure, and for that reason to totally abandon that policy and to accept already in '86 a new vision of one united South Africa with one person, one vote, with all forms of discrimination to be eradicated from our statute books, but also a united South Africa within which we accommodate our various cultural minorities in a meaningful way. That is the vision which it was my privilege to unite in practice.

Chat Moderator: What was your opinion, at the time, of Nelson Mandela's life sentence?

F.W. de Klerk: At that time, I agreed with the court. He had a fair trial, he was defended by some of the best lawyers in South Africa. He was found guilty of acts, deeds, and plans which in all civilised countries, also in the United States, would be and today still are regarded as extremely serious crimes. Plans and deeds from which would have flown many deaths and very serious consequences. However, in South Africa, until recently life sentence did not mean 'till the day of your death, and generally speaking, those sentenced to life were released on good conduct and other factors after about 20 years. Therefore, the 27 years that Mandela served were exorbitant. He stayed in jail far too long.

Chat Participant : Do you think it is fair that so many white South Africans who committed crimes in the past are going to escape justice?

F.W. de Klerk: All South Africans who committed political crimes can get amnesty, not just white South Africans. I think that if there is provision for amnesty, then it would be fair that without any form of discrimination, anybody, irrespective of race or colour who qualify in terms of the norms laid down, should be able to get it. Personally, I was against the concept of amnesty for extremely serious crimes such as premeditated murder, assassination, torture, and rape. It was the ANC which insisted in 1992 that even such crimes should qualify for amnesty. And it was one of the most painful concessions which I had to make in order to get negotiations back on track.

Chat Participant : More whites are being murdered than at any time, our women are being raped and we are robbed every day, and nothing is said, there is no outcry and no mass anger any where on earth because we are not black.

F.W. de Klerk: I think that it is wrong to say that in South Africa there isn't such an outcry. But I also think it would be wrong to give a racial content to the problem of crime. Rape and murder is serious irrespective whether the raped woman or the murdered person is white or black or Indian or whatever. There should be an outcry about every murder and every rape.

Chat Participant : Do you think the New SA will succeed under Mbeki?

F.W. de Klerk: I think the new South Africa will succeed. Whether the new president will take South Africa forward in bounds and leaps will depend upon how he governs. He certainly has the capability to be a good president, but he will have to put that capability into practice. His first test will be to compose an efficient, strong cabinet. His second test will be to ensure efficient anti-crime action and to lead the country towards dramatic job creation.

Inasmuch as he puts forward good plans in that regard, he will have my support and I'm sure also the support of all reasonable opposition parties.

Chat Moderator: Any final comments?

F.W. de Klerk: It was great to participate in your program. I think the time has arrived for everybody to look afresh at South Africa. And not to remain caught up in old perspectives and prejudices. I sincerely hope that my book will succeed in bringing some new perspectives on our country.

A last word, South Africa is a great country to visit. It's not unsafe for tourists if they act wisely and if they stick to advice that they get. It's extremely cheap with the exchange rate, please come and visit and see for yourself and you will fall in love with South Africa if you do so.

Chat Moderator: Thank you Mr. de Klerk for joining us today.

F.W. de Klerk: Good-bye.
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