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Inside the Middle East
January 30, 2009
Posted: 1541 GMT

erdogan

(CNN) - Israeli President Shimon Peres said he had an amicable phone conversation with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a day after Erdogan stormed offstage during an angry exchange with Peres at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.

Peres said he and Erdogan did not take the spat personally.

"I called him up and said, yes, it's nothing against you, nothing against Turkey. We consider you as a friend," Peres said. He said Erdogan reciprocated.

Although there was no mention of an apology, Peres said there was a polite exchange between the two leaders.

"I didn't take it personally. I didn't go for a personal fight. I answered unfounded accusations. It was my duty. And they didn't change my mind," he said.

Turkey, a predominantly Muslim nation, has long been the Jewish state's closest military and economic partner in the region, and Turkey recently mediated indirect peace talks between Israel and Syria.

But many Turks have been incensed with Israel over its three-week military operation that ended there earlier this month.

And in Davos, Erdogan was angered after Peres said that Israel is committed to peace and blamed Hamas for the fighting in Gaza, where Israel staged a three-week military operation that ended earlier this month.

When Erdogan began responding, a moderator cut him off, saying the debate had run over its allotted time. Erdogan patted the moderator on the arm until he was granted one more minute to respond.

"I know the reason behind raising your voice is because of the guilty psychology," he said to Peres. "My voice will not be that loud. You must know that. When it comes to killing - you know killing very well. I know how you hit, kill children on the beaches."

He then left the stage, complaining that Peres was receiving preferential treatment.

"From now on, Davos is finished for me," Erdogan said. "I will not come back. You won't let people talk. You gave him 25 minutes, but you gave me 12 minutes. This is not right."

Filed under: Shimon Peres


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GLeigh   January 30th, 2009 4:03 pm ET

I hope intelligent people such as these will generate dialog and work for the betterment of humankind. It must not be easy.

Alaa Deen   January 30th, 2009 6:28 pm ET

I wonder why no president or UN has the guts to face the Zionist state the way president Erdogan did. He spoke the truth face to face like no leader did before. I salute him respect him and I hope more leaders around the world will stand like him and point the finger at Israel and say enough with killing innocent civilians ,children ,women and blame others for it. Even UN was hit in Gaza by Israel Military and no one condemn them. Peres was not able to accept the truth.The moderator was unfair and unjust because Peres was receiving preferential treatment. and got more time to speak freely. They allowed him to speak shout attack never been cut but when President Erdogan try to respond respectfully he was cut by the moderator. Shame on UN Shame !!!!

Nona   January 30th, 2009 6:35 pm ET

Well, I'm glad they're speaking again, but the information in this entry indicates the whole episode is just silly grandstanding anyway.

1. And in Davos, Erdogan was angered after Peres said that Israel is committed to peace and blamed Hamas for the fighting in Gaza.
That's something to get angry about? Sheesh. Erdogan is obviously behaving in response to the huge powerful Arab lobby that controls Turkey's government.

2. Erdogan patted the moderator on the arm until he was granted one more minute to respond.
Well, it was probably quieter than banging his shoe on the podium like Khrushchev did at the UN. The two should have been allotted the same amount of time, but it seems like the prime minister of Turkey would have the maturity to object in a way that wasn't quite so childish.

I guess the most important thing is they're talking again. Turkey's been a good partner in the peace process and can really play an important role if it chooses to be an honest broker.

Nadeem   January 30th, 2009 6:38 pm ET

This position of Turkey and its prime minister supported by the people of Turkey are more proof that "Gaza will likely be seen as the turning point when Israeli propaganda lost its power to mystify, silence and intimidate as it has for so long".

Nadeem, Lebanon

dan perman   January 30th, 2009 6:50 pm ET

erdogan should talk? after the turks masscred thousands of armenians?

what a hypocrite this erdogan

Nadeem   January 30th, 2009 7:14 pm ET

Dan, for once I agree with you on this one. Turks did massacre thousands of armenians and the turkish government should acknowledge this. It is indeed quite hypocritical for Turkey do not accept the world genocide for what the Ottoman Empire (before the establishment of the Republic of Turkey) did.

But don't you think it is strange that you mention this when the Turks were Israel's closest allies in the region before the Gaza war. Today, the truth cannot be hidden, Israel's crimes that remind many of my armenian friends in Lebanon of what Israel is committing in the occupied land, these crimes are well documented and can never be refuted by anyone.

Today, Turkish people and many other nations around the world are standing out in defense of the people of Gaza and are loudly naming the three-week war on gaza as it should be named; not an act of self defense, not a war against Hamas militantas, not even a simple case of excessive use of force, but a massacre and a crime against humanity that did not differentiate between militants and civilians killing more than 1300 people half of which are women and children.

harvey   January 30th, 2009 7:24 pm ET

If the greek cypriots had been shelling Turkey for 8 years how would the Turks have reacted?

I.B. Wright   January 30th, 2009 7:27 pm ET

dan perman- Are you sure he's not a Hamas terrorist considering he's so critical of Israel? As the Prime Minister of a country he has the right and duty to convey his country's position on international matters especially when it involves human suffering such as Gaza. Like it or not , many people don't like what Israel did and vilifying him doesn't change that.

Nadeem   January 30th, 2009 7:31 pm ET

harvey, we are tired of this same propaganda of yours. One day, its "if mexico shelled USA", the second day its "if germany shelled france" ....... repeating these scenarios does not prove anything. Palestine is an occupied land, USA is not occupied by mexico, france is not occupied by germany and cyprus is not occupied by Turkey!Israel is occupying palestinian land. Don't you get it harvey!

harvey   January 30th, 2009 7:36 pm ET

I am still waiting to hear a suggestion as to how a country should deal with its neighbor consistently shelling it for 8 years.
The neighbor won't negotiate with you refusing to recognise your existence.
The neighbor sends suicide bombers to blow up citizens in your restaurants and bus stations and markets. Then is upset by your trying to regulate border crossings.
The neighbor hides his missiles and rocket launchers in densely packed civillian areas....
So please suggest a way to tackle the problem????Or is Israel just supposed to put up with being bombed and terrorised????

harvey   January 30th, 2009 7:45 pm ET

No I don't get it.
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Not a jew or israeli there. Border crossings open.
Instead of using the chance to build a country Hamas tried to destroy someone else's immediately. Why not build instead of destroy? Hamas's charter is dedicated to the destruction of Israel....
We can argue the rights and wrongs of the history of ownership forever....but fact is there are two peoples here now, at this moment.
Either we learn to share and get on with one another (my preferred way) or we end up in a perpetual state of violence and hatred.
Give peace a chance.

harvey   January 30th, 2009 7:51 pm ET

Oh by the way Nadeem there are many greek cypriots who will tell you that Turkey is occupying their land. Many Greek cypriots hold the deeds to their farms but cannot claim them.

Please see below

Greco-Turkish War (1919–1922) – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
... Greek campaign of the Turkish ... conflict and antagonism. Nevertheless, the Greek landings were received by and large passively, only facing sporadic resistance, mainly by small groups of irregular Turkish ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek-turkish_war · Cached page

Nadeem   January 30th, 2009 7:51 pm ET

I'll tell you what harvey, it is quite simple. If Israel agrees to a two state solution, stop blocking crossings, allow food to pass freely across borders, and most importantly stop killing civilians and be proud of it, then Hamas has no reason to fire rockets.
Palestinians deserve an independent state and enjoy freedom of movement, of work, of education without Israel targetting UNRWA schools. Israeli government is actually afraid of peace, just when a solution to the conflict was closest than ever, it decided to repeat its massacres against civilians, reporters, medical convoys and destroying every chance of an honorable palestinian life.
DON'T YOU GET IT, harvey!

Nadeem   January 30th, 2009 8:00 pm ET

You say: "Why not build instead of destroy? Hamas’s charter is dedicated to the destruction of Israel…."

What does the Zionist Charter say?????

Listen Harvey, I have been in similar discussions a million times, to the extent that I could almost know what you will say next. I wish we could get to an agreement but let's face the truth. I will never agree with someone who justifies the killing of more than 700 women and children in anyway!!

harvey   January 30th, 2009 8:03 pm ET

No Nadeem I don't get it.

In 1948, the day Israel was born, it was attacked on all fronts by the armies of five nations, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq.
Three years after the Holocaust murdered one third of the Jewish people
Israel's neighbours tried to murder the Jewish state.
Since then, from that day to this, Israel has lived with war or the threat of war, terror or the threat of terror.
Yet Israel has sought peace.
In 1948, under Ben Gurion.
In 1967 after the six day war.
In 1991 at Madrid.
In 1993 on the White House Lawn.
In 1998, at Wye Valley.
In 2000 at Camp David.
In 2001 at Taba.

We say to those who criticise Israel:
You want Palestinian children to grow up with her hope.
So do we
You want Palestinians to be able to live in dignity.
So do we
You want Palestinian parents to have work, income, and a life for their families.
So do we
When a great British Jew, the late Dr David Baum,
President of the Royal College of Paediatrics,
a man who lived in Bristol but asked to be buried, as he was, in Israel, in Rosh Pinah, sought
to give expression to his hopes for Israel,
he created a state-of-the-art child care facility.
Where? In Gaza.
He died on a sponsored cycle ride raising money
for paediatric facilities in Gaza.

In 2005 Israel withdrew from Gaza.
It said to the people of Gaza: the land is yours.
The factories, the farms, the buildings our people built are yours.
The aid you seek in building an economy is yours.
That is when terror should have stopped.
Instead that is when the current wave of terror began.
The living nightmare for the people of Sderot and Ashdod and Ashkelon.
A ceaseless rain of rockets injuring and killing young and old,
the vulnerable, the innocent, who wanted nothing except peace.

I live here in Israel...you think we want to fight....give us an alternative...give us a partner to make peace with...

I agree with you...we need a 2 state solution...we say to HAMAS
Why do you want Israel to die?
Stop wanting Israel to die.
Start wanting your children to live.

harvey   January 30th, 2009 8:16 pm ET

So Nadeem,

We love soccer. We try to encourage Palestinian kids and Israeli kids to play soccer together. We believe that if the kids see eachother as people as opposed to stereotypes we can start to build peace from relationships. We mix the teams up. After about half an hour the kids have forgotten about Arab and Jew...
Small beginnings. We managed to send some kids to a summer peace camp in the USA a few years ago. That was a great experience.
Thats what we need to do. Instead of looking for differences and hatred look for commonality and things we share.
Its difficult and unfortunately the extremists on both sides hijack the agenda. But both sides, mine and the Palestinian side need to come to the realisation that both of us are wrong AND both of us are right. Both sides have made terrible mistakes...but we must find a way forward together and sadly it is not simple....but if there is a will and a willing partner we can do it.

Beny   January 30th, 2009 8:21 pm ET

I love that guy Peres. Attacked on an international stage in a meeting about something else entirely (I still remember CS for bashing me for being off-topic in the point before last. By a president of a country with whom relations are very fragile and important (to both sides).

And Peres, as a true representative of Israel, stood up for his country. The moderator should not have let this glide into what it became from the very beginnning, or otherwise turn it into an organized political debate equal on both sides. That I will agree with Arduan. But I, as someone used to standing up for Israel on online stages, really respect Peres for what he did.

But even more I respect both presidents for that "make-up call". It was extremely important not to let this incident slam into the very profitable for both Turkey and Israel relations. Good job both of them.

As for Peres being "uncommited to peace", like Arduan wanted to accuse him, let me remind you that it was Peres who orchestrated, from the Israeli side, the (notorious) Oslo pact.

The man took that lying bastard Arafat at face value in his promise to stop the suicide bombings, and gave him free political reign in the West Bank and Gaza. That pact exploded in our face only months later as bombings resumed, but Peres never ceased working day in and day out on an agreement with Arafat, coordinating with whatever PM Israel had.

Peres, let me remind you, founded the "Peres Center for Peace", which, among other things, created a foundation that organized the treatment of dozens of Gazan children in Israeli hospitals each year (until Hamas broke the last cease-fire and blockades were enforced). That agency has also done incredible work in bringing together Arab and Israeli academics and scientists.

Peres is "uncommited to peace"?! Heh. And Hamas are?

Nona   January 30th, 2009 8:21 pm ET

Harvey, I think your work with kids and soccer is more valuable to a lasting legacy of peace than a million U.N. resolutions.

Is there some kind of foundation where I can contribute financially to this work?

Filipe   January 30th, 2009 8:24 pm ET

Olá´Nona !!!!

Nona   January 30th, 2009 8:27 pm ET

Ola Filipe! I hope it's a great day in beautiful Portugal!

Sorry to bail on you last night. My internet service went down.

harvey   January 30th, 2009 8:29 pm ET

Nona,

Thats ever so kind of you.

Its actually the Peres Center for Peace
http://www.peres-center.org

Its fantastic....

Filipe   January 30th, 2009 8:35 pm ET

Nadeem January 30th, 2009 1951 GMT

I’ll tell you what harvey, it is quite simple. If Israel agrees to a two state solution, stop blocking crossings, allow food to pass freely across borders, and most importantly stop killing civilians and be proud of it, then Hamas has no reason to fire rockets.

*************************************************************

what was Hamas' reason to start firing rockets when the Israelis left Gaza in 2005??? No Israeli occupation, open borders, free movement!!!

Explain that???

Beny   January 30th, 2009 8:46 pm ET

Hey Nona, Harvey, Dan, Filipe! Nice to join you.

I agree with what Nona said, Harvey, your work is helluva lot more important than a UN guy saying "tsk tsk...". Are you working solo or is there an organization?

Nadeem,

There is no official charter for Zionism but the idea is the same for all Zionists- "The creation, preservation and prosperity of a Jewish state in the land of Israel". That's why I'm so flattered when you call me a Zionist. No mention of destroying anyone else, mind you. Only idiotic warmonger terrorists from al-Husseini to Hamas think that it is impossible for there to be a Jewish state (which the Holocaust has shown that Jews cannot survive without one) next to a Palestinian one.

Let's take a look in our Declaration of Independence, acting also as our constitution: "We call, even within the bloodshed upon us these very days, for the Arab people of this land to preserve the peace and partake in the building of this state based on complete equal citizenship and appropriate representation for them in it's institutions".

They have completely equal rights, 5 parties in the Knesset and those of them who don't lynch policemen are given the basic governmental services.

And the Hamas charter? "liberation of Palestine from the Jordan to the sea". Not only promising the complete destruction of Israel, but also nothing said about the establishment of the Palestinian state".

And even at that, how have Hamas's actions brought them closer to this goal? It only brought destruction on the poor Palestinians they use as human shields, at terrible numbers (even if less than the "700 women and children" you said).

harvey   January 30th, 2009 8:48 pm ET

Here in Israel been dry and sunny. We need rain, severe water shortage....

Nona   January 30th, 2009 8:50 pm ET

I know you and Beny aren't working together, Harvey. Unlike some people, I'm fully aware that people can be like-minded without some great conspiracy behind the consensus.

I will check out the Peres Center Web site. I come from a place with an awful legacy of race-based hatred that was propagated for centuries. In my lifetime, I've seen how effective activities such as your soccer games are at dissolving the hatred, prejudice and stereotypes. We have two or three generations now of blacks and whites who've gone to school together, played sports together, cheered for the same teams in the stands side-by-side, played music together in bands, had sleepovers together, had proms together ... and so on.

I know how valuable the work you do is, because I've seen it work here, in my lifetime. Thank Gd.

harvey   January 30th, 2009 8:56 pm ET

Drop in and out helping out when I can...volunteer basis,

Am working this summer in a camp in USA with teens. A load of kids from here will be going. Bringing US teens and Israeli teens together is also really important...been doing that a while.

A lot of the US kids have the disadvantage of every advantage...you know all the material stuff is theirs....but no time to stand and stare and focus,,,Israeli kids on the other hand....summer camp is a great place for kids to build relationships and learn how to communicate.

I just enjoy working with teens...

Beny   January 30th, 2009 8:56 pm ET

Harvey, you work at the Peres Center? Good for you! I only caught glimpses of the work you are doing from news and stuff I heard from people you helped (like getting my dad into a mostly Muslim physics conference). And the little I heard is incredible! You guys should get more publicity. People should know what you are doing and I bet you could use the donations :)

Is it volunteer work you're doing?
Let me know if there is a way to donate. I'm afraid not volunteer myself- between my studies and my laziness- but especially after starting to post here it really increased my willingness to be more involved in whatever initiative for peace going on.

יישר כוח!

harvey   January 30th, 2009 9:03 pm ET

Nona,

Last summer we got a lady to talk to the kids called Liesel Appel. She wrote a book called the Neighbors son.
She was a daughter of a high nazi educationalist and rebelled against her parents. Ended up getting involved in struggle against apartheid, married a jewish guy, settled in Asheville....
Its her sort of example that we could all do with. i think you would enjoy her book. You can google the Neighbors Son

Its also people like you who have changed the world with your attitude of not looking the other way....so thank you...

Nona   January 30th, 2009 9:03 pm ET

Hi Beny.

Regarding your comments on the Hamas charter, you forgot the part in Article 13 that says, "the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)."

And don't forget Article 17 of the Hamas charter, which calls the Rotary Club and the Freemasons are "gangs of spies" and "nests of saboteurs," etc.

harvey   January 30th, 2009 9:10 pm ET

guys,

its late here....

Shabbat Shalom to those of you of the jewish persuasion and shalom peace to everyone else....

Take care...

Nadeem   January 30th, 2009 9:15 pm ET

Ok Filipe, I hate to be in the position to defend Hamas as I do not quite agree with them. But Hamas are angels compared to Israel. I had wished they had reached an agreement with Israel like the one Hezbollah had reached with Israel in 1996 (the April agreement) that calls for the safety of civilians on both sides. I have read that Hamas were willing to sign such an agreement that would save civilian lives on both side but maintain their given right to attack Israeli military forces who could re-enter Gaza, but that did not happen.

Let me explain how Hamas are angels compared to Israel:
Israel did leave Gaza, but they are still occupying it. as much as it is occupying the West Bank. They are occupying it in a manner very similar to the South African appartheid. Contrary to your claim, the borders have been closed for the last three years and Gazans were barely surviving by food supplies passing through tunnels from Rafah. Of course, these tunnels were and continue to be used by Hamas and other palestinian factions to get weapons. Contrary to your claim as well Gaza is isolated from the West bank and other palestinian land and movement is definately not free for anyone, including Israeli journalists who tried to enter Gaza to see the reality of the suffering there. I can go on forever, but one thing is worth mentioning here is that the disengagement plan from Gaza by Sharon (the same man accused of crimes against humanity – google Sabra and Shatila massacres) was used as to pave way for further West Bank Land grab and changing the international opinion of Sharon miracously from a PROVEN war criminal to a "peacemaker". Gaza pullout was like a smokescreen to mask Israel's consolidation of a far more significant land grab of the West Bank, land it has brutally occupied for nearly 40 years in breach of international law and in defiance of countless United Nations resolutions.

I have been very clear and honest in my reply, I hope to hear your realistic feedback as well because I honestly hate to hear things repeated over and over again by some people in this blog who continue to refuse to condemn the killing of more than 1300 palestinians by the Israeli government more than half are women and children constituting a clear war crime against humanity.

Nona   January 30th, 2009 9:28 pm ET

Good night, Harvey! Shabbat shalom!

Nadeem – While I do not agree with a lot of your assumptions, I am delighted to see you willing to engage in rational dialogue and an honest attempt to exchange ideas in the quest for peace.

I have 2 questions for you:

1. Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?

2. Do you acknowledge that a large reason for the civilian casualties was Hamas's well-established use of human shields? Do you acknowledge that Hamas was hiding soldiers and arms in homes, mosques and schools where innocent civilians were, and refused to allow those civilians to move to safer areas during the battles?

harvey   January 30th, 2009 9:38 pm ET

Nadeem...

Hamas Angels????

More than 10,000 rockets, missiles, and mortars have been fired at southern Israel from Gaza in the past eight years. Towns and villages here have lived under constant threat. If some of those projectiles were crude and missed their targets, it was not for lack of trying. Their aim is to kill, maim, and intimidate as many civilians as possible. Everything is fair game – homes, hospitals, schools, playgrounds. The trauma this has created cannot be adequately described.

And for what? To "liberate" Gaza? Well, Gaza is already under Hamas, not Israeli, rule. No, more likely, to eventually "liberate" Israel from Israeli rule.Hamas don't want a 2 state solution they want everything...jews dead or out.

Israel left Gaza in 2005. Israel has repeatedly renounced any territorial ambitions there. Israel gave Gazans the first chance in their history to govern themselves.

Israel has a vested interest in a peaceful, prosperous, and developing Gaza. This point cannot be stressed enough. After all, the two are destined to share a common border.

Israel has only one overarching concern in Gaza: Does it pose a security threat to neighboring Israel? The answer, tragically, is clear. That was the result of a decision taken in Gaza, not Israel. Hamas was chosen to rule, and choices have consequences. After all, Hamas denies Israel's right to exist.

Israel seeks to defend itself in a highly complex environment, where the adversary, Hamas, cravenly uses civilians as shields and mosques as armories.

And by the way nadeem, I hope you condemn the killing of innocent Israeli victims of terror by Hamas as much as you condemn the innocents killed by the IDF deliberately put in harms way by Hamas, their own leaders.

Nadeem   January 30th, 2009 9:39 pm ET

Hi Nona, I enjoyed your post on the shoe post earlier, very true! I wish we agreed on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as much as we agree on throwing shoes :D.
Before answering any questions, and if I may, I need to know if you condemn that Israel has at least committed one war crime in the war on Gaza. You can chose one, let's say the targetting of the UN headquarters as one example

Cheers..

Beny   January 30th, 2009 9:41 pm ET

Nadeem,

Wow. Okay, here we go. Hamas are angels? The only angels I can relate them to are the ones with flaming swords over religious sites, in an analogy to how they are fond of storaging weapons in mosques.

These monsters drag around little kids to use as human shields. Have you seen a school textbook of theirs? Even math was replaced by the importance of Jihad.

These monsters have booby-trapped EVERYTHING, from residential homes to zoos to SCHOOLS. If a bomb defuser had not been present in every Givati team that entered a building, we would have had 60 more IDF victims and 600 more innocent Palestinian victims.

These monsters have, in the Hamas-Fatah clashes, killed almost as many innocent Palestinian civilians as Israel has. They are executing whole families suspected of supporting Fatah as we speak.

On the other hand...

Until 2008, Israel (coordinated by the Peres Center in which Harvey works) has let in dozens of Gazan children to be treated each year in Israeli hospitals. Tell me of a Muslim country that did that.

Between the several-hour blockages after every Kassam, Israel has opened the borders for aid to be let in (but not for people to get out, from fear of an increased wave of suicide bombers). Tell me of a Muslim country that did that.

Israel has dropped leaflets and made countless phone calls before any attack, to let the citizens escape and distance themselves from the Hamas facilities bombed. It saved lots of lives in Rafiah, but in Gaza Hamas seems to have held them in by force. Tell me of a Muslim or European country that did that.

Even in the fighting, Israel halted all actions for several hours to let UN aid in. During that time, however, Hamas rockets kept on falling.

Any other country would have carpet-bombed Gaza back in 2001, like NATO did in Kosovo, for example (100,000 civilians killed to 500 terrorists, even by their own reports, and they dare accuse us?!). Israel has restrained itself for 9 years while the rockets kept on falling.

Compared to anyone else in the world, we are Mother Theresa. Compared to Hamas? We're the incarnation of all that's pure and good.

Filipe   January 30th, 2009 9:46 pm ET

Nadeem-

I fully realize the current situation. But my question refered to 2005.

It is really of consequence what the motivation or reason was that Sharon chose to withdraw from Gaza. What is important is that he did.

When the Isaelis left Gaza in 2005 along with all the settlers, the border crosssings were operating in accordance to the Oslo Accord signed by the Israelis and the Palestinians, right? It was only after the aggression by the firing of rockets that the Israelis locked down the border crossings, right?

So again, back to my previous question-– no occupation of Gaza, open borders as agreed to in the Oslo Accord---

Why should there be rockets going into Israel from Gaza????

By the way, violence did not free the black South Africans from Aparteid.

The people of the West Bank are fully capable of managing their own situation in their own way and in their own time.

How can you use this as an excuse to launch rockets into Israel from Gaza?

dan perman   January 30th, 2009 9:46 pm ET

ndeem

israeli crimes in gaza?

what about hamas crimes in israel?

do you condemn, say the passover massacre in natanya?

or the disco massacre in tel aviv?

dan perman   January 30th, 2009 9:53 pm ET

NADEEM

let's talk about brutal occupation:

jordan brutally occupied the west bank until 1967, not allowing higher education. the first real university in the west bank was opened under israeli occupation, not by the arab jordanian brothers

egypt brutally occupied gaza until 1967, ruling with an iron fist

but then you and your brothers were silent, when arabs occupy, this is perfectly acceptable, right nadeem?

incidentally, turkey's role in cyprus is destructive

and teh fact that turkey is a close ally of israel has nothing to do with erdoan's attempts to show taht he is a good muslim

Filipe   January 30th, 2009 9:59 pm ET

Nadeem-----

One thing puzzled me throughout this recent conflict. Hamas continued to hide among the population, launch rockets from the rooftops of the homes, schools and Mosques. Yet the civilians allowed and provided for this, willingly or unwilling– ???They claimed to have no place to go.
The fact is 1/3 of the Gaza Strip is uninhabited arable farmland. Why was it that the population did not leave the urban areas and go to the farm lands??? Why was it that the UN and the ICRC, if they were truly so concerned for the welfare of the civilian population, did not establish refugee camps- tent cities- in the farmlands in the Gaza strip??? They do this all the time in African countries in order to provide a safe haven for those seeking refuge and fleeing violent conflict. They provide huge tent cities for refugees. The UN and ICRC made no effort whatsoever to provide safe haven for these people.
Wonder why that is?? Maybe it’s because that would leave the militants unprotected??? No Shields?? Some sources claim it's because of Hamas' control of the UN and ICRC in Gaza! What’s wrong with this picture??

Who is really to blame for the civilians being caught in the middle of the conflict????? The Israelis certainly did not put them there nor did they keep them there!

harvey   January 30th, 2009 9:59 pm ET

Nadeem,

I am going to bow out...I think Nona and Beny are fielding the point of view I hold.

I wish you and yours peace.

Believe me when I say that nothing would give me and I know most of Israel greater pleasure than not having to send my/our boys off to the army. I pointed out in previous post how many times we have sought peace....and indeed the sacrifices of land and therefore our security that we have made in exchange for a promise of peace. We are not exactly the largest country you know. Nona told me that Israel is about the size of the state of New Jersey.

Anyways My little girl asked me when I tried to explain to her why her cousins and brothers have to go to the army "Why can't we just learn to share?" Simple analysis....

I'm trying to go down that path. I'm trying to teach kids to share. But until we have a partner for peace...sadly my boys will have to continue to go to the army...We need role models on both sides to bring peace...and actually they are there on both sides. We need to stop the point scoring and blame game. Recognising our right to exist as opposed to accusing eachother of breaching human rights might be a start....

Anyways goodnight to you and Shalom.

Shabbat Shalom to everyone.

I look forward to reading up on your opinions and thoughts tomorrow.

Beny   January 30th, 2009 10:01 pm ET

Nadeem,

I was not in complete agreement with our government either. There came a time when I believed the airstrikes had to stop. They were highly effective in destroying Hamas overland facilities at first but after they all retreated to their bunkers the 10 terrorists that can be rid of are simply not worth the many more innocents held hostage by Hamas that would be killed. After a while the airstrikes were only damage. Also I believe we should have retreated from Gaza city sooner. We already did all we could do in there and apart from complete takeover there is little to be done about the Hamas cowards hiding deep in their bunkers.

On the other hand, I have also disagreed with the abrupt, midway retreat. There was still a lot more to be done- tunnels across the Egypt border are among a population much thinner than that of dense Gaza, and we could have destroyed all of them completely with relatively little IDF and innocent Palestinians killed. We have stopped in mid-way before finishing our goals, and that is costing us the quickened Hamas recuperation now.

There were a lot of innocent deaths we could have avoided and a lot of goals we could have achieved.

As for bombing the UN facility. Disregarding the countless reports that UNRWA have become a corrupt organization for transferring UN money to Hamas, I am sure that if a non-Hamas-affliated building has been targeted, it was done out of human error (like what happened where a tank has bombed a Hamas building, unaware that an infantry platoon has already taken it and were inside). Rest assured that the IDF is conducting an internal investigation as we speak and the responsible will be tried in military trial. There is absolutely no place in the IDF for people who make such fatal errors.

Trying them for "war crimes", however is both morally pathetic (when Hamas are doing war crimes more terrible on the Palestinians) and legally impossible.

Nona   January 30th, 2009 10:39 pm ET

I think people should give Nadeem a break for now. He's trying to engage in honest discourse, even if he disagrees with us. From what I've read so far, he's not calling for endless war; he's calling for peaceful resolution and two states.

Unlike some people, who just lust for endless blood and threaten to rape people.

I.B. Wright   January 30th, 2009 11:00 pm ET

Filipe- Where did you see someone say it was acceptable to hold children as hostages? If Hamas did then they should be charged with war crimes just as Israel should be for dropping bombs on them. I don't see big difference myself.

mooshy   January 30th, 2009 11:37 pm ET

dan
im not erdugan. i never sit with extremists. neither lieberman and perez, nor binladen.

moses   January 31st, 2009 12:01 am ET

there should be a peaceful solution somewhere.all we need is support from obama right now.

moses   January 31st, 2009 12:06 am ET

im sure the conflict will end if we sit on the same table and talk because this problem has become a pain in the back for the international community.

moses   January 31st, 2009 12:11 am ET

whenever there is occupation, there is resistance. period.

moses   January 31st, 2009 12:30 am ET

concerning obama, im not disappointed. wa are normally disappointed when we expect something from someone. obama is bush and bush is reagan and reagan is carter, etc........................
a vicious circle.

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 12:34 am ET

we have been waiting for Turkey to change position for a long time
thank you Mr Erdogan.
Turkey will always be a middle eastern country will always be a brother to the Arabs .
Turkey is not welcome in Europe because they are Muslims. we welcome you back to your roots Mr Erdogan
Arabs Iranian and Turks should be together .

thank you again for standing to this liar.

rayan   January 31st, 2009 12:44 am ET

i think turks should break with israelis after the criminal war they have made in the overpopulated cities of gazza, which under their occupation.

rayan   January 31st, 2009 12:46 am ET

the world should understand that palestine is under occupation. we see magnificient inventions but we fail to understand that there is an occupier who is backed up by the US to kill children in a colonised land.this is crazy.

Linda   January 31st, 2009 1:02 am ET

Moses,
you said:
January 31st, 2009 001 GMT

there should be a peaceful solution somewhere.all we need is support from obama right now.

then:
whenever there is occupation, there is resistance. period.

So why do you need the support of Obama? If you think that it is the occupation, then do you think that Obama is not going to ask Israelis to pick up and move? Why do you look to the US to solve your problems? We do not have the same interests or values, so why are you wanting our help?

rayan   January 31st, 2009 1:17 am ET

linda
what do you call the situation in the west bank and gazza? Please enlighten us.

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 1:23 am ET

Linda.

Moses is right whenever there is an occupation there is a resistance.
this is human nature.
Linda you can not deny that there is an occupation.
there was an occupation by Iraq to kuwait, what did the US do?
why can't the US tell Israel to leave occupied Palestinian land .
we are not asking the US to fight Israel. you know that without US support Israel can not hold that occupied territory for long.

Linda   January 31st, 2009 1:25 am ET

Rayan,
If you would like to address me, then why do you not answer one of my questions? I was not corresponding with you anyway.

Fonseca   January 31st, 2009 1:33 am ET

Solomon January 31st, 2009 123 GMT

you know that without US support Israel can not hold that occupied territory for long.

Soloman,

Who would take it??

Linda   January 31st, 2009 1:34 am ET

Hi Solomon,
Good to see you again! I understand that some people say it is an occupation and some say that it is not.
As far as the United States' role, some of these people on here curse the US and then turn around and want our help. I asked this same question a few days ago and did not get an answer. But also, the US did not give that land to Israel, so maybe the US should not be dictating who lives where.
As far as Kuwait, they did not want Iraq there, and the US went in to help them. Now, why don't they do that in this conflict. Well, I will just say that I am tried of the US going in and shedding our soldiers blood for people that do not want to change.
If your agenda is to kill people just because of their differences, then there is nothing the US can do. And why does everyone come to us anyway? You have to act civil, and our definition of civil is to live together in peace, have freedom of religion, and don't break any of our laws. This is what we are built on, and that is what some other countries are trying to do. But when you bomb buses, fire rockets, etc. that is not wanting a solution, that is wanting bloodshed.

Fonseca   January 31st, 2009 1:40 am ET

rayan January 31st, 2009 046 GMT

the world should understand that palestine is under occupation.

rayan,

There is a solution to this dilema.

Come to a peace agreement with Israel just has Egypt and Jordan have managed to do and your concern will be resolved.

Fonseca   January 31st, 2009 1:54 am ET

It's really funny how some people seem to think it is the responsibility of the US to step in and solve their problems. What's even more funny is that in most instances they are the same people who scream and get get all wacked out of shape because they feel that the US is always sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong. Can't have it both ways!

Linda   January 31st, 2009 2:03 am ET

What friend? who is getting the boot?
Are you who I think you are from the other night, Fonseca? If so, I got your message

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 2:04 am ET

"As far as Kuwait, they did not want Iraq there,"
Linda . do the Palestinian want Israel there?

Linda.
you are assuming that the Palestinians Agenda is to kill people this to me is hate of the worst kind towards the Palestinians and this after what we have seen from Israel in Gaza .

if your definition of civil is to live in peace,
my definition of civil is to live in peace as equals not as an occupier and an occupied..

it seems that you already decided that any thing Israel does is right and every thing that Palestinian do is wrong.
I think trying to debate with you is a lost cause you like to look at things with one eye and you are not interested in any thing but Israeli interest.
Linda Israel is a state that was built on terror and this is a historical fact.by you trying to deny that and accuse the Palestinians of terror shows how ill intentioned you are toward the Palestinians.

Linda   January 31st, 2009 2:10 am ET

No Solomon,
I am not assuming that the Palestinian people want to kill, but the people in their country do. The people that they elected in Gaza, and they had to have known, because it is in Hamas' charter.
I agree that they should live as equals, but doesn't that mean mutual respect? They have to come to an agreement and the first things is not to want to kill each other.
I don't think that one country is always right, and one is always wrong. and if you really believe that, then you are not remembering any of my posts from the last month. But Hamas, just like others want to wipe Israel off of the map. So because of that, Israel has to always be on the offensive. And also because of that, do you think that the US should tell Israel that it is ok if your neighbor shoots rockets at you, or bombs buses in your country? What do you want the US to do?
As far as you last sentence, it seems to me that you can not have a dialogue with someone that you do not agree. I did not say any of those things. There is a big difference between the people of Gaza, and Hamas.

Linda   January 31st, 2009 2:11 am ET

*defensive* not offensive

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 2:11 am ET

Who would take it??

Fonseca.

the owners will take it.and this will not be the first time in History.
Israel will not survive without the US support.

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 2:16 am ET

Linda.

Israel was killing Palestinians and taking their land.40 years before there was a Hamas.
twenty years before there was a PLO.

do you know that?

Linda   January 31st, 2009 2:17 am ET

Solomon,
Do you think that if the President of the United States, not matter who it is at the time, called Israel and said that they could not return fire, keep checkpoints at their boarders, etc. that they would listen. What do you think would happen. They would do exactly what they have been doing. What do you think the US can do? I mean, our government says that Israel has the right to defend itself. Well, Yes, I agree with that, and I also agree that every country has the right to defend itself. What is wrong with that.
So if you mean that the US can't sell weapons to Israel, then no one can sell weapons to anyone else. Including Iran to Hamas and Hez. China, Russia, etc. Not only does the US sell arms to other countries, so do the others. If the US has to stop selling them, then so does everyone else.

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 2:17 am ET

Linda- I think you're missing the point. You and many others here assume that anyone who is critical of Israel is automatically a Hamas supporter and even a supporter of terrorism. The fact of the matter is that it is Israel who depends on the U.S. for nearly everything -to the tune of $10MM per DAY. I don't believe the majority of Arabs support Hamas but they do support their cause. The help that is required from the U.S. is not military intervention but help as an honest peace broker. It is no secret that only the U.S. has sufficient leverage to force the Israelis into a just and lasting peace, something I think they have side stepped so far. You make it sound like the Palestinians are always crying for help from the U.S. when in reality all they want is for the U.S. to be more even handed when it comes to their situation. Do you or do you not agree that Israel should recognize its own boundaries and get out of the occupied territories as outlined in the various several peace initiatives drawn up by several countries including the U.S.? I don't think it's a question of whether or not these lands are occupied- it's more a matter figuring out how to get Israel to accept world opinion and get out.

Linda   January 31st, 2009 2:19 am ET

Yes Solomon, I know that, and people were trying to kill Israelis ever since they were given the land. Who"s fault is that? Where do we go from there it the question. and unless and until the mindset changes, there will never be peace in the region, no matter who supports whom.

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 2:22 am ET

Linda.

every country have the right to defend them selves, fine with me.
do the Palestinians have the right to defend them selves?
and please dont answer and who is attacking them?

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 2:23 am ET

Linda.
that is the end of our discussions .

Linda   January 31st, 2009 2:23 am ET

IB,
I have never accused anyone of being in support of terrorism. I think you should check your facts on that
And yes, Israel depends on the US for support, but the other countries and yes, the terrorists depend on countries too.
And I do not agree with your assessment of world opinion. If that were the case, many countries would have jumped right in to help Hamas, or gone in and taken over Israel, and that has not happened yet. World opinion in the last month has been for Israel to take care of their dirty work. They are talking out of both sides of their mouths.

Linda   January 31st, 2009 2:26 am ET

Solomon,
Why do you post questions to me and then say it is the end of our discussions? I will answer anyway. Yes, the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves. and as I have said a 100 times, the international community is partly responsibile for the plight of the Palestinian people because they have let them suffer so. It should have not gotten to this point.

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 2:32 am ET

Linda .

the reason is your answer to my previous question about Hamas and the PLO.
I will not talk with some one that no matter what proof you put forward they will still accuse the victim.

Linda   January 31st, 2009 2:36 am ET

I didn't accuse any victim. But I'm sorry to hear that. I will miss our chats.

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 2:42 am ET

Linda- If you are not one of the ones I was referring then I apologize but you know what I meant. Anyway, your comments about world opinion are off base because I wasn't talking about supporting Hamas. I was talking about world opinion as it relates to the occupied territories- many of the peace proposals including the "road map" which was developed by members of the EU, Russia, China and the USA (i.e the world) included a provision that Israel was to remove its settlement from the occupied territories. As far as the dirty work you mention- I have no idea what you're talking about.

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 2:44 am ET

Hamas must be brought into peace process, says Tony Blair

Hamas must somehow be brought into the Middle East peace process because the policy of isolating Gaza in the quest for a settlement will not work, Tony Blair has told The Times.

The former prime minister implicitly criticises the strategy followed by the Bush Administration and Israel of focusing all peace and reconstruction efforts on the West Bank. “It was half of what we needed,” he said.

In an interview with Ginny Dougary in the Saturday Magazine, Mr Blair says that the strategy of “pushing Gaza aside” and trying to create a Palestinian state on the West Bank “was never going to work and will never work”.

Linda   January 31st, 2009 2:47 am ET

IB,
I misunderstood, I thought you were talking about Hamas. My apologies.

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 2:53 am ET

Hey Solomon- Finally someone has seen the light. Whether the US and Israel like Hamas or not, they do represent the people of Gaza. Just goes to show you can't keep negotiating with yourself and expect results. Now if they can somehow get Fatah and Hamas on the same side, maybe they can get somewhere.

Linda   January 31st, 2009 2:54 am ET

IB,
Myself, gleigh, nona, debs, nick-canada, and more feel that way

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 2:58 am ET

Linda- I forget something even more important-I hope you're feeling better and that things are going well.

Linda   January 31st, 2009 2:59 am ET

Thank you IB, I have been sick for the last couple of days, but all will be well. I appreciate your concern

Nona   January 31st, 2009 2:59 am ET

Israel's supposed to negotiate with Hamas but Hamas isn't equally to negotiate with Israel?

Israel is supposed to negotiate with Hamas for peace, but Hamas isn't equally obligated to declare it's goal to be peace? (Its charter currently rejects any peaceful resolution as against the religion.)

This makes sense? This is fair? This is a partnership of two sides working toward peaceful solutions?

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 3:00 am ET

I.B. Wright.
there is no other way but to have Fatah and Hamas together again under the Umbrella of the PLO with a new policy.
resistance and negotiation at the same time.

that was the way in every liberation movement. occupation must be resisted.
the goal must be peace through negotiation.

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 3:11 am ET

Nona- Israel has no option but to negotiate with the Palestinians, including Hamas if it want's peace. How else can it be done? Bombing the crap out of them hasn't worked so either you talk to them or keep fighting. BTW, what religion are you talking about that rejects a peaceful resolution? You're kidding right'?

Nona   January 31st, 2009 3:16 am ET

IB.

OK. Say Israel agrees to negotiate with Hamas.

Then what? Hamas isn't negotiating with Israel. It hasn't asked to. It doesn't want to. It rejects all peaceful solutions and doesn't even acknowledge Israel's existence.

My question was, how is Israel obligated to negotiated with Hamas if Hamas isn't equally obligated to negotiate with Israel.

And yes, I fully understand that Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians. But it is the ruling body of Gaza.

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 3:23 am ET

I.B. Wright.

the above post by Nona.shows why Hamas exist?
if I am a Palestinian.
Israel do not exist and should not exist
Hamas charter should be more powerful than it is now.

comparing occupation to a gamble in a casino?

only a sick mind made in Israel will think that way.

Nona   January 31st, 2009 3:26 am ET

Solomon, you yourself told Bill that Israel acquired the West Bank and Gaza were acquired by Israel in response to the attack on it by Arab countries.

Sorry if the comparison to the casino offends you, but attacking another nation is a gamble. There's no other word for it. The Arabs lost the West Bank and Gaza because they made a bad bet.

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 4:03 am ET

Nona- I'm not sure I follow the logic of your casino analogy but regardless, what are you trying to say then? Are you saying the West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel so you don't need to negotiate with anybody, no matter what the rest of the world thinks? You said how is Israel obligated to negotiate with Hamas if Hamas isn't equally obligated to negotiate with Israel. Do you even know what Hamas wants besides Israel's total destruction?How can you criticize Hamas' position if you don't know what it is? If you want to claim those lands as Israel's then there's no reason for either party to negotiate since Hamas is convinced it has to destroy Israel to get them back. So, who is the one that doesn't want to negotiate here? Israel will never have peace unless its a just one and until they do, they can quit crying about how evil the palestinians are.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore about the occupation because there's nothing to argue about. Most of world considers it an occupation and that's good enough for me. I just don't understand your complaints about not having a negotiating partner if you are unwilling to negotiate in the first place. Or are you saying the only partner that would work for Israel is a submissive one who does what Israel wants??

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 4:03 am ET

Oh yes. I have been very busy in this new year out and about in the real world

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 4:04 am ET

Following the post mess closely nevertheless

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 4:11 am ET

I think that Hamas will negotiate and I heard somewhere on news the other day that Hamas wants to negotiate and seems willing to remove the destruction of Israel part from their charter. I'll have to research this more and post what I heard when I find it.

But there is NO WAY that Hamas can do that with the whole world watching. Hamas is no threat at all to Israel at this point.

Negotiations are the ONLY way.

Negotiations are done between enemies–not friends, folks

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 4:14 am ET

With third parties mediating, there is no threat to Israel.

Something has got to be done about those settlers–a HUGE obstacle to any solution if ya ask me

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 4:17 am ET

Solomon- I agree, that Hamas is in power because of Israel's refusal to leave the occupied lands. Sounds like Israel doesn't plan on leaving voluntarily either because apparently they won them fair and square at a casino. No wonder they're having so much trouble finding a "negotiating" partner-they don't want one.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 4:20 am ET

IB and Solomon
do you think a one state solution is possible?

Realistically it does not seem a 2 state solution is viable, eh?

Linda   January 31st, 2009 4:21 am ET

IB,
I have spoken to a couple of people that use to live in Gaza. These 2 people did not vote for Hamas but said the reason the people of Gaza voted for Hamas was because of how bad things were under Fatah. They thought they were getting a better deal, then realized the weren't. I think that is why Hamas is in power. I took the word from people that actually lived there and went through the elections.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 4:22 am ET

What is REALISTIC at this point, guys?

Your thoughts?

Someone talk to me! :(

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 4:30 am ET

A.J.- Very true. Everyone tends to demonize Hamas but, unless they are confronted with serious negotiations, which I think they would be receptive to, people should quit assuming all they want is the destruction of Israel. To be honest, if Israel is unwilling to give up the occupied territories what is there to negotiate? That and the Palestinian right to return are two of the major problems that I can see. Surely this conflict has gone on long enough for someone to put an end to it. Tough job but hopefully President Obama is that someone.

Linda   January 31st, 2009 4:33 am ET

IB,
Why do you think that President Obama would be the one?

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 4:35 am ET

I agree IB

I think the settlements are posing a very huge dilemma for both Israel and the Palestinians, tho.

Did you see 60 minutes last Sunday?

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 4:35 am ET

A.J.- LOL! The geography makes it a bit awkward -maybe they need to build a connector or a tunnel between the two.

Bill   January 31st, 2009 4:36 am ET

Who exactly is Israel supposed to negotiate with? Hamas charter forbids such things. It wants only the destruction of Israel. There is no way to negotiate with that.

Israel doesn't have to negotiate, either. It is Israeli land, won when the Arabs/Muslims attacked Israel in 1967 and lost, as usual.

Israel has nonetheless offered to negotiate, because Israel is the party who wants peace, but has nobody worth negotiating with. Both Fatah and Hamas are Islamic terrorist organizations. They just differ in their approach on how they would like to destroy Israel.

Negotiating with Islamic terrorists has proved to be stupid and senseless. Muslims don't have a concept of truth or honor, so negotiations and agreements are futile and always temporary at best. The only thing that works with terrorists is killing them and strangling their support.

If the Palestinians came together in a united and PEACEFUL way to negotiate in good faith, recognizing Israel's right to exist, and renouncing all violence, then I am certain that Israel would negotiate with them again. Israel has offered so much for peace so many times, but the Plaestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Personally, I can never see it happening. Palestinians love destruction and violence. They seem to thrive on it. They are programmed to be the aggressors while proclaiming their victimhood. They consider it their God-given right to attack Israeli civilians! They can't even get along among themselves. I think the Hamas Islamic terrorists have killed more Palestinians in Gaza than Israel. I can see very little chance of them uniting under a peaceful banner. They don't value life; they don't understand what peace is or could be for them and their children. Sad.

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 4:37 am ET

A.J. No, I didn't. Was it good?

Nona   January 31st, 2009 4:38 am ET

IB, put down the beer, pay attention, and stop putting words in my mouth.

Are you saying the West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel so you don’t need to negotiate with anybody.

No. I am saying the West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel the way Texas belongs to the USA. It's territory acquired by military conquest. Nevertheless, Israel still must negotiate for peace.

You said how is Israel obligated to negotiate with Hamas if Hamas isn’t equally obligated to negotiate with Israel.

Yes, I did. It boggles my mind that anybody, whatever their position on this conflict, could disagree. Let's assume that Israel decides to negotiate with Hamas. How is Israel supposed to do that if Hamas won't negotiate with Israel in return? If Israel is to be willing to negotiate with Hamas, then Hamas has to be willing to negotiate with Israel. Anything else is asking one of the parties to negotiate with an empty chair. It's a simple concept. Try to follow. Are you seriously suggesting that Israel negotiate with an empty chair? That Israel is supposed to negotiate with a party who doesn't show up at the table?

Do you even know what Hamas wants besides Israel’s total destruction?

Yes. Nothing. Oh, except a Sharia-based government in what is now the land of Israel, including Jerusalem, which is the holy city of Judaism. Don't take my word for it. Ask Hamas.

How can you criticize Hamas’ position if you don’t know what it is?
How can you criticize Israel's position if you don't know what Hamas's position is?

If you want to claim those lands as Israel’s then there’s no reason for either party to negotiate since Hamas is convinced it has to destroy Israel to get them back.

Wrong. There a great reason to negotiate even if those lands are Israel's: PEACE. Every Israeli on this blog has said repeatedly, over and over and over again, that they are perfectly happy to give land in return for peace and a conflict-free existence. Israel has even proven it. It returned Sinai Peninsula to Egypt in exchange for peace and it worked. It returned Gaza to its Palestinian inhabitants in 2005 and Hamas used it as a launching pad for unprovoked rocket attacks. But I'm sure Israel will still be willing to give away even more in return for peace. The question is, if Hamas will settle for nothing less than the destruction of Israel, then what does Israel have to gain by negotiating with Hamas?

So, who is the one that doesn’t want to negotiate here?
Hamas.

Most of world considers it an occupation and that’s good enough for me.
Well, that says a lot more about you than it does about anything else. If the world told you to go jump in a lake, I guess that would be good enough for you too.

I just don’t understand your complaints about not having a negotiating partner if you are unwilling to negotiate in the first place.
I realize that it's a complex scenario in your mind, but once again, I'll try: Even if Israel IS willing to negotiate with Hamas, Hamas is NOT willing to negotiate with Israel. That leaves Israel negotiating with an empty chair. One party can't be willing to negotiate. BOTH parties have to be willing to negotiate. Negotiations by their very definitions require at least two parties. Otherwise, it's called "talking to yourself."

<i<Or are you saying the only partner that would work for Israel is a submissive one who does what Israel wants??
No. I'm saying that it's reasonable for Israel to put its resources, energy and money into negotiations with adversaries who acknowledge that it has a right to exist. It's also reasonable for Israel to withhold its resources, energy and money from negotiations with people whose only goal is to destroy it. Try to follow.

I’m not going to argue with you anymore about the occupation because there’s nothing to argue about.

Thank you. I would consider that a wonderful gift. U.R. Wright - Your name says it all - you're ALWAYS right and nobody else ever is as far as you're concerned.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 4:42 am ET

Simon also restated what Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has been saying for years [3] about what would happen if the two-state solution peace process falls apart.

IB
Excellent.

Bob Simon has gotten hell for "unfair reporting" by the usual suspects, but most thought what he presented was fair and accurate.

In part, "...Simon restated what Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has been saying for years [3] about what would happen if the two-state solution peace process falls apart.

"Demographers predict that within ten years Arabs will outnumber Jews in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. Without a separate Palestinian state the Israelis would have three options, none of them good. They could try ethnic cleansing, drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank, or they could give the Palestinians the vote. That would be the democratic option but it would mean the end of the Jewish state. Or they could try apartheid – have the minority Israelis rule the majority Palestinians, but apartheid regimes don't have a very long life."

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 4:43 am ET

Bill- Do you even believe half what you say? If so then why are you worried about not having a negotiating partner-you don't need one or want one! They're not even human beings according to you. SAD.

Bill   January 31st, 2009 4:48 am ET

I.B. Wright -

Who said they are not human beings? You? Sad. You need to read the whole post, if that is possible.

Put down the beer and think.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 4:48 am ET

I'm not sure how a two-state solution will work either with all those settlements breaking up Palestinian villages into fragmented pieces...a problem for Israel, too.

Nona   January 31st, 2009 4:50 am ET

I agree with you about the settlements, AJ.

I am pro-Israel, but Israel needs to stop building settlements in the West Bank, IMO. And it needs to be willing to pull its citizens from them like it did in Gaza as part of a peace agreement.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 4:57 am ET

Its a pro Israel organization...
just a minute I'll get the link for you

Bill   January 31st, 2009 4:59 am ET

If Israel pulls out of the West Bank, it will just give the Islamic terrorists another foothold from which to attack Israeli civilians, I'm afraid. It would just turn into another Gaza.

The West Bank is huge compared to Gaza. Imagine rocket launchers over that entire area pointed at Tel Aviv or Dimona. No Israeli city would be safe. I would never take such a gamble given the history of the Palestinians. I just can't see it happening. It would be like telling the Russians that they can have Canada and Mexico during the Cold War as long as they promise not to attack us. Yikes.

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 5:02 am ET

Nona- From your response, it looks like the words I put in your mouth were pretty accurate eh? I tried to follow your logic but couldn't especially the part about the West Bank and Gaza belong to Israel like Texas belongs to the USA? Anyway I'm glad you liked the gift and ask me anytime if want the right answer.

Nona   January 31st, 2009 5:03 am ET

Well, that's the thing, Bill.

The Palestinians have to be to peace as Israel too. Those committed to Israel's destruction are ruining the peace process and have been for 60 years.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:03 am ET

For Nona:

ABOUT J STREET
J Street is the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement. J Street was founded to promote meaningful American leadership to end the Arab-Israeli and Palestinian-Israel conflicts peacefully and diplomatically. We support a new direction for American policy in the Middle East and a broad public and policy debate about the U.S. role in the region. Learn more at our website by clicking one of the links above.

http://www.jstreet.org/about/about-us

Jeremy Ben-Ani, Ex Director

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:10 am ET

Nona,
Why do you think the Palestinians don't want peace?

Bill   January 31st, 2009 5:10 am ET

How does one silence those committed to Israel's destruction? I think the Palestinian society is brainwashed into thinking that they will have peace only when Israel is destroyed. I know that Israel actively wants peace.

Where are the Palestinians calling for peaceful co-existence with Israel? Where are the Palestinian leaders who recognize Israel's right to exist in peace and call for an end to the pointless "resistance" to a non-existent "occupation"? Are there such people?

Nona   January 31st, 2009 5:12 am ET

I think a lot of Palestinians DO want peace AJ. A LOT of them.

I think a lot of Palestinians are committed to the destruction of Israel too. And I believe Israel has a right to exist.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:15 am ET

No they are not brain washed

Folks Move beyond the destruction issue. Rhetoric should not stop negotiations from happening. Hamas does not have the might to back any words calling for Israels destruction with action

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:16 am ET

You bet they do, Nona!

Their quality of life is horrid

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:17 am ET

Israel's actions do not demonstrate what they say, Bill
Ations speak louder than words

Nona   January 31st, 2009 5:17 am ET

Move beyond the destruction issue?

I don't think that's fair, AJ. It's not rhetoric. It's a commitment that's backed up by armed action, political movements and complete control of the hearts and minds of the people of Gaza.

Why don't you tell Hamas and their advocates to move being the destruction issue?

Nona   January 31st, 2009 5:18 am ET

Aw, yall want the destruction of Israel? Well, maybe if we're really nice and let you rocket us into oblivion, you'll change your mind ...

Bill   January 31st, 2009 5:19 am ET

If they are not brainwashed and they want peace, why don't I ever hear about them? Their leaders are Islamic terrorists who have called for the destruction of Israel, whether or not they currently have the strength to back that up.

Where are the peace loving Palestinians? Why don't they elect a government that is committed to a peaceful resolution of the conflict with Israel and send the Islamic terrorists and their weapons packing?

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:20 am ET

A lot of Israelis and American Jews would like to see the Palestinian disappear or be wiped out or transferred, I have heard it at pro Israel rallies–that is as bad as Hamas calling for Israels destruction, dont you think??

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:22 am ET

What makes Israels rhetoric any less awful than Hamas?

Israel has more military power which they have so well demonstrated–too well!

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 5:26 am ET

Nona- Do you think comparing me to Hamas is the ultimate insult? I'm not that offended considering the source. I put in the same category as your interpretation of term "occupied".

Nona   January 31st, 2009 5:28 am ET

I've never heard any Israeli or any Jew advocate the destruction of the Palestinians. EVER.

I've never heard of a country devoted to the destruction of a population dropping leaflets and sending out text messages of military action before they attack.

Hamas is control of the government of Gaza, in control of the media systems in Gaza, and in control of the mosques of Gaza. Assuming that you have heard this from some Israelis and Jewish Americans (I have not), you certainly have not heard of it as an official government policy, an official media policy or an official religious policy. So no, I don't think it's as bad as Hamas calling for the destruction of Israel.

Bill   January 31st, 2009 5:30 am ET

AJ -

I don't doubt you have heard such things about those wishing to wipeout the Palestinians. Personally, I haven't. The Israeli government does not have a policy to wipeout the Palestinians. The Palestinian leadership, however, does have a policy and charters to wipe out the Israelis.

Which do you think is worse, a few yahoos yelling that the Palestinians should be destroyed or two factions of the Palestinian government that both want Israel destroyed? In free societies you will always get an occasional yahoo. How often do you run across a "government" whose declared and written purpose is to destroy an entire country and their people?

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:34 am ET

I do not agree that all Palestinians are behind Hamas. And the ones who are, dig deep and find out WHY they are, it is not always what is put out by mainstream media sources

If we all wait for each side to move beyond hateful rhetoric nothing will get going. Start NOW with the hateful rhetoric/action on BOTH sides, call each side on their BS and progress forward.

No more blockade, no more bombs or rockets, each side needs to begin negotiating from here and now, as ugly as it is now.

If the world/3rd parties moderate, everyone can get their ugly rhetoric out of their systems and move forward!

What is the alternative?? May Iask?

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:37 am ET

What the Palestinians SAY and what the Israelis DO...I do not see this as black and white the way you seem to Bill.

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 5:39 am ET

Bill- I'm glad I'm not as smart as you OK? All you do is repeat the same old tired garbage about how bad the Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims etc. are and how they are lucky Israel allows them to live there. You say Muslims have no concept of truth or honor and complain about no one to negotiate with. That doesn't sound so smart to me-actually it sounds kind of dumb.

Bill   January 31st, 2009 5:39 am ET

AJ -

The question still remains – Where are the peace loving Palestinians?

Not to sound too cynical, but if the Palestinians don't really want peace, then what is the point of negotiations? To give them more time to rearm and plan their next attack?

Nona   January 31st, 2009 5:40 am ET

I don't have the answers, AJ. I personally think that, eventually, all sides will agree on 1967 borders, the Hamas types will attack Israel again, Israel will retailiate and win again, and we'll be right back where we started.

I said the other night that I think the REAL answer is a Gandi-like Palestinian figure. I really believe that.

If Israel is so brutal and repressive, the best way to reveal it is to stop resisting and succomb. Then the world really sees it. As long as Hamas is attacking, Israel can defend itself. Let's see what happens when Israel isn't in a position to have to defend itself.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:41 am ET

There are two sides to this conflict but it seems you only see one side
There are two peoples in this
The powerful is viewed as the victim And the poverty weak peoples as the oppressor...
I just dont see it that way and have a very hard time understanding the justification of Israels actions

Nona   January 31st, 2009 5:41 am ET

When I say "stop resisting and succomb" I mean try peace. I don't mean lie in front of tanks rolling over you. I mean, just stop with the rockets and the suicide attacks. Try it.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:43 am ET

There needs to be a Ghandi-like figure on the Israeli side too.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:44 am ET

If the shoe was on the other foot...

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:45 am ET

And stop dropping tons of bombs on schools, hospitals and innocent civilians

Bill   January 31st, 2009 5:46 am ET

I.B. Wright – It's OK that you are not that smart. If you tone down the arrogance and really try hard to comprehend what is being said instead of reacting to it, you may gain some insight.

Nona   January 31st, 2009 5:47 am ET

Sorry AJ, but that's BS.

I'm sick and tired of people making Israel out to be the big powerful one. It's not. It never has been.

The Palestinian people have the entire Muslim world raising funds for them, rallying for them, backing them up. Not to mention a pretty good part of America.

Israel has nobody except official US policy backing it up, and once oil becomes irrelevant, that'll go away too. Israel's has been forced to invest in a state of the art army because of unrelenting attacks - at times, by 5 and 6 countries at a time.

People sympathize with the Palestinians because they like to think they're the underdogs. They're not. They're the pawns of the people with all the oil, an unthinkable amount of money and a huge amount of power. They're not the underdogs.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 5:48 am ET

Going back to the 1967 borders, yes, I agree there

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 5:49 am ET

A.J. You are correct. There's too much blame going back and forth for so many years that it's turned into hate for one another -it's even obvious here. What bugs me is no-one seems prepared to sit down and talk. Israel says Hamas are terrorist and we will not negotiate with them. Hamas says if Israel doesn't leave the occupied lands, the only answer is to eliminate them. They are like two school kids fighting over something nobody really wants. BTW, I heard something about the potential consequences of a one state solution some time ago where a Palestinian resident (I believe) predicted the same thing Ohlmert was talking about . Makes sense I guess.

Bill   January 31st, 2009 5:54 am ET

AJ -

War is a lousy option, but when attacked you have 2 choices, defend or die.

I would hope that after attacking Israel for more than 60 years Israel's enemies might have learned that if you stop attacking Israel, it will have no need to defend itself.

If the Palestinians were united under a government dedicated to peaceful co-existence, there would be peace almost immediately. I really don't see Israel as being the obstruction here. The Palestinians are divided because they can't agree on whether the corrupt Fatah terrorists or the violent Hamas terrorists are more likely to destroy Israel first.

I hear many Israeli's advocating peace. I hear no Palestinians advocating peace. Quite the opposite.

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 5:56 am ET

Bill- I'll admit I'm not that smart but you you don't have to keep opening your mouth and proving you're even more intellectually challenged than I. You can call me Hamas or you can call me a terrorist but arrogant? Now that hurts.

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 6:00 am ET

Bill- What proof do you have that no Palestinians are for peace? I think you're FOS, as usual.

Nona   January 31st, 2009 6:02 am ET

The shoe was on the other foot, AJ.

The world did nothing. Two-thirds of the world Jewish population was murdered, along with 3 million non-Jews. The world assisted (including the Arab world) or looked the other way. England appeased until its own interests were threatened. The US looked on until its interests were threatened.

The shoe HAS been on the other foot, and 9 million people were murdered.

The result was the state of Israel. And people are still vowing to wipe out all the Jews.

26 official Muslim countries (excluding Turkey; it's not officially Muslim)
18 official Christian countries
6 official Buddhist countries
1 official Jewish country on territory the size of New Jersey, and it's the big mean powerful bad guy.

Give me a break.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 6:03 am ET

And USA military might and billions in our tax payers money that could be used for health care here instead of massacring thousands over there.

Well, I strongly disagree with what you state. However, You have a right to your opinion as I do mine.

I respect you, Nona and will leave for now as I don't want to get into ugly name calling as I have seen in here too much. I won't change your mind and you will not change mine. The more I see and learn these past couple of weeks away from this blog, the stronger I feel about Israel's role in making a horrible situation worse.

Returning here, not much has changed. The same dialogue as 2 weeks ago. I will check in again and hope to see progress next time.

I do hope both sides will soon be able to come to the table. On that note, shalom and salaam to folks here and especially to the Israelis and Palestinians.

Laila Tov!

Bill   January 31st, 2009 6:03 am ET

I. B. Wright -

Where have I said that there are no Palestinians for peace? You have a real problem with reading comprehension, don't you?

Nona   January 31st, 2009 6:08 am ET

Good night, AJ.

I would never get into name calling with you. I respect you too much. Intelligent people can agree to disagree.

Talking and dialogue is progress. If everybody keeps defining progress as "winning" people who disagree to their point of view, then there will never be progress, will there? We've seen too much of that, both on this blog and more importantly, in the middle east.

There's plenty to agree on, despite differences. The desire for peace would be a great place to start. From there, it's all about finding middle ground.

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 6:12 am ET

Bill-

See above, you wrote:

I hear many Israeli’s advocating peace. I hear no Palestinians advocating peace. Quite the opposite.

Well Bill, I have heard many, many Palestinians advocating peace, and many more American and Israeli Jews than just a "few yahoos" advocating that the Palestinians be wiped out.

Rhetoric is ugly –on BOTH sides. So talk it out at the table and MOVE ON!!

American Jew   January 31st, 2009 6:15 am ET

Yes, Nona, an excellent way to end our conversation tonight–middle ground...
Thank you and now I mean it
good night
:)

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 6:21 am ET

Bill- " I hear many Israeli’s advocating peace. I hear no Palestinians advocating peace. Quite the opposite" by....you Bill. You interpret that however you wish and I'll do the same. Sorry to say that's my prerogative.

Bill   January 31st, 2009 6:22 am ET

AJ – Exactly. It says, "I hear no Palestinians advocating peace." That doesn't mean that there aren't any. It just means that I have not heard about them. If there are many, many Palestinians advocating peaceful co-existence with Israel, could you give me a few links to the news coverage?

Neither Nona or I have heard Israelis wanting to wipeout the Palestinians, but I'll take your word that you have heard it. If there are so many American and Israeli Jews advocating the destruction of the Palestinians, I would have thought that others might have heard about it.

But, I think everybody has heard that Islamic terrorist groups like Hamas want to wipe Israel off the map.

Bill   January 31st, 2009 6:26 am ET

I. B. Wright –

I don't hear thunder right now. I guess that means that thunderstorms do not exist. I don't hear airplanes, either. They must not exist. LOL

Bill   January 31st, 2009 6:30 am ET

Well, it's been interesting. Time to hit the sack and dream of a world at peace instead of a world in pieces.

Goodnight Nona, AJ, IB.

Fawad Ali   January 31st, 2009 7:19 am ET

Muslims, some liberal Americans and now atheists are now speaking in the same voice “Occupation must end and controversial tactics to fight terror also should end”

Fawad Ali   January 31st, 2009 7:30 am ET

Muslims, some liberal Americans and now atheists are speaking in the same tone “Occupation must end and controversial tactics to fight terror should end”

Israelis certainly have lost few friends after recent Gaza offensive,

Hamas is still out there, getting money from Iran and distributing it in Gaza,

Israel is expected to face possible war crimes in The Hague.....

Israel couldn’t do any worst for itself……..

Israel must have had learned some lessons from Indians for making ‘shrewd and brilliant’ decision after Mumbai attacks ‘terror can’t be defeated by acting as a maniac’………..

dan perman   January 31st, 2009 8:33 am ET

a hamas rocket landed near ashkelon 2 hrs ago

hamas are begging for more punishment, and they will get it

Sam   January 31st, 2009 8:50 am ET

Erdogan did what any politician who respect himself would've done under the circumstance. He showed that he is a man of honor and stand by his word... not as hypocrite like most of the Arab/Muslim world leaders with the exception of a couple in this recent history of ours (President of Iran and the ex PM of Malaysia). Its time the Arab/Muslim world overthrew their leaders and on top of the list is the trader Mubarak who commited treason in my opinion.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 9:11 am ET

Controversial Bestseller Shakes the Foundation of the Israeli State
What if the entire tale of the Jewish Diaspora is historically wrong?
by Joshua Holland

What if the Palestinian Arabs who have lived for decades under the heel of the modern Israeli state are in fact descended from the very same "children of Israel" described in the Old Testament? . . .

And what if most modern Israelis aren't descended from the ancient Israelites at all, but are actually a mix of Europeans, North Africans and others who didn't "return" to the scrap of land we now call Israel and establish a new state following the attempt to exterminate them during World War II, but came in and forcefully displaced people whose ancestors had lived there for millennia?

What if the entire tale of the Jewish Diaspora – the story recounted at Passover tables by Jews around the world every year detailing the ancient Jews' exile from Judea, the years spent wandering through the desert, their escape from the Pharaoh's clutches – is all wrong?

That's the explosive thesis of When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?, a book by Tel Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand (or Sand) that sent shockwaves across Israeli society when it was published last year. After 19 weeks on the Israeli best-seller list, the book is being translated into a dozen languages and will be published in the United States this year by Verso. . . .

Sam   January 31st, 2009 9:11 am ET

January 29, 2009
Haaretz

For first time, U.S. professors call for academic and cultural boycott of Israel
by Raphael Ahren

In the wake of Operation Cast Lead, a group of American university professors has for the first time launched a national campaign calling for an academic and cultural boycott of Israel.

While Israeli academics have grown used to such news from Great Britain, where anti-Israel groups several times attempted to establish academic boycotts, the formation of the United States movement marks the first time that a national academic boycott movement has come out of America. Israeli professors are not sure yet how big of an impact the one-week-old movement will have, but started discussing the significance of and possible counteractions against the campaign.

"As educators of conscience, we have been unable to stand by and watch in silence Israel's indiscriminate assault on the Gaza Strip and its educational institutions," the U.S. Campaign for the Academic & Cultural Boycott of Israel stated in its inaugural press release last Thursday. Speaking in its mission statement of the "censorship and silencing of the Palestine question in U.S. universities, as well as U.S. society at large," the group follows the usual pattern of such boycotts, calling for "non-violent punitive measures" against Israel, such as the implementation of divestment initiatives, "similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era."
Advertisement
The campaign was founded by a group of 15 academics, mostly from California, but is, "currently expanding to create a network that embraces the United States as a whole," according to David Lloyd, a professor of English at the University of Southern California who responded on behalf of the group to a Haaretz query. "The initiative was in the first place impelled by Israel's latest brutal assault on Gaza and by our determination to say enough is enough."

"The response has been remarkable given the extraordinary hold that lobbying organizations like AIPAC exert over U.S. politics and over the U.S. media, and in particular given the campaign of intimidation that has been leveled at academics who dare to criticize Israel's policies," Lloyd wrote in an e-mail to Haaretz Monday. "Within a short weekend since the posting of the press release, more than 80 academics from all over the country have endorsed the action and the numbers continue to grow." . . .

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 11:14 am ET

Erdugan is definitely not mubarak , who always manages to humiliate his people and the palestinians under thr rubric “peace”. which peace is this?
Yesterday , Chavez reacted; now erdugan. what about our “presidents”. our political systems are funny. we cannot even distinguish between presidents and kings.
people live in a planet and the rulers on another one.
i think our rulers are like Dan, linda, beny, etc…;they are paid by the “zionist organization”.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 11:15 am ET

i think the world has started to wake up. the injustice has lasted for so long and honest people can't stand it anymore.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 11:19 am ET

the rethoric of killing thousands of civilians by using all types of weapons from the states is no more acceptable to the international community.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 11:33 am ET

hamas has stirred the palestinian cause again. this cause, which was clinically dead by abbas, has been revived and the world has discovered the real face of the occupation.
Aljazeera has been the major factor behind this discovery. in 1948 and later, crimes used to take place without any documentation. now, the media record the mass-killings minute by minute.
there is no one to fool here. the zionist organization is definitely a war criminal.
what Mitchell said about linking humanitarian aid with stopping the passage of arms to hamas is pathetic. this means that obama supports the idea of collective punishment: punish everybody till there are no arms. how can we verify if there is any passage of arms or not. israel will always say there is smuggling because zionists play on unverifiable issues.
All in all, israel always kills beautiful things. with the verdict of mitchell, our doubt about obama is confirmed. obama is another face of the american policy that is conditioned by the zionist remote control.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 11:41 am ET

some war criminals:
Criminal General Amos Gilad

Amos Gilad
Amos Gilad is a Zionist war criminal who commanded the murders of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza from 1974 to 1979 as a Chief of the Department of Military Intelligence.His family emigrated from Czechoslovakia to Palestine in 1939 and settled in the Palestinian city of Haifa. Amos Gilad took part in Genocide against the Palestinians before and after the Intifada. Gilad was one of the Israeli criminals who besieged the Palestinian President Yaser Arafat in Ramallah. He is suspected of having participated in organizing the murder of President Arafat. Gilad lives in Herzliya

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 11:43 am ET

other war criminals:

Matan Vilnai is currently the Deputy of the Defense Minister. In July 2007, Vilnai was appointed Deputy Minister of Defense.Vilnai said "We will bring Holocaust in Gaza". He described what Israel intends to do to Palestinians in Gaza if they do not stop the firing of the Qassam rockets. He said: 'Palestinians will bring upon themselves a bigger holocaust because we will use all our might to defend ourselves,' says Deputy Defense Minister Vilnai. Vilnai is involved in Gaza's Holocaust 28 February 2008 in which over 126 Palestinian were killed among them Babys, teenagers, children, old men, and wonen. Hundreds were injured seriously during Vilnai's holocaust at Friday midnight on Beit Hanoun Vilnai was born in the occupied Jerusalem in 1944, and he lives now in Mevaseret Zion.Vilnai was drafted into the Israel Defense Forces
in 1966. He served in the Paratroopers Brigade. "Sankhanem".

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 11:44 am ET

General Doron Almog served as a commander of a Paratroopers Company in the Sinai, and he lead numerous battles against the Egyptian army. During these campaigns he was responsible for the murder of Egyptian war prisoners. In his most recent post as the head of the IDF Southern Command from 2000-2003, he was responsible for thousands of assassinations in the West Bank and Gaza. General Doron Almog ordered the destruction of fifty nine civilian homes in reprisal for the deaths of Israeli soldiers.Almog has overall responsibility for Israeli the operations and all the crimes against the civilians in the Gaza Strip.On September 10, 2005, as he arrived in London, he did not exit the airplane and he was forced to flee Britain, because a British lawyer, Daniel Machover, acting for the human rights organization "Lawyers for Palestinian Human Rights" filed a criminal complaint against Almog for crimes against humanity. Almog learned from the Israeli consulate that a warrant had been issued for his arrest for violating the Geneva Conventions in connection with the destruction of homes in Gaza.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 12:02 pm ET

before leaving, i have a message to Obama.
You seem to be a nice guy. Be careful about your middle-east policy to avoid being hit by an old shoe at the end of your term.
Try to do the following and history will glorify you:
1- Read about the history of the conflict in credible and independent sources.
2- Listen to Hamas leaders and judge by yourself.
3- Use logic and dont be biased toward any party.
4- Don't encourage israel in its perpetual violations of the international law. This encourages islamic extremesim and promotes hatred for Americans. All the problems we have with terrorism have a root in the israeli occupation.
5- The image of the US has been damaged by the war in Gazza again. Don't let this happen again.
6- Bear in mind that negociations don't last for ever and that the israelis are expanding in the palestinian land minute after minute.
7- The final solution that is acceptable to all parties in the arab world consists of two basic elements:
A- withdrawal from the occupied territories of 1967.
B- the return of the palestinians who were expelled by force in 1948.
Without these two solutions, there will never, never, never be peace.

one of your former admirors.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 12:10 pm ET

As a concluding remark, i would like to refer to Dr Azmi Beshare who said that even the arab population who lives in palestine 1948 feels that it will be expelled . This may give a hint about the real image of peace which zionists try to sell to the world.
Whom are you fooling?

Its the occupation stupid.

benyemen   January 31st, 2009 4:15 pm ET

GIVE ME FREEDOM OR GIVE ME DEATH.

WHO DOESN'T CLIMB MOUNTAINS, WILL FOREVER LIVE IN HOLES.

YOU CAN BLUFF PEOPLE ONE TIME, BUT NOT ALL THE TIMES.

HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF, OCCUPIERS LAST A PERIOD OF TIME.

PALESTINE WILL GET THEIR LAND AS THE INDIANS, SOUTH AFRICANS, EGYPTIANS AND ALL OTHERS DID.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 6:13 pm ET

Mohammed,

I'm sure President Obama will pay close attention to your advice! But, you should send it to his official website if you expect for him to receive it.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 6:45 pm ET

Carlos,

What do you think about Erdugan's action vs. Perez statements?

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 7:32 pm ET

Sam,

As I understand it, Erdugan's actions was a result of the moderator not allowing him to speak. There's nothing wrong with that. He should have been given equal time to speak. But, I believe the moderator should have cut off Perez long before he finished!

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 7:40 pm ET

Sam,

How is it you believe Mubarak has commited treason??? Because he fails to support the Hamas ideology?? Or os it because he maintains the blockade of the Rafa border crossing?

It was Egypt who first forced the Palestinians into Gaza and kept them locked up for 20 years. So, this situation goes back long before Mubarak.

dan perman   January 31st, 2009 8:02 pm ET

you keep forgetting that erdogan had already spoken and peres speech was in reply to his

then erdogan wanted to speak again

let's keep the facts straight, OK?

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 8:12 pm ET

Fawad – Your post about atheists and liberals caught my ear. I'm not atheist. I do think there is a God so can't really go there. Not sure what lthe term iberal means or support as a whole either. I know same sex marriages. Well, I have trouble really going there with either. I do think we need peace.

Nona   January 31st, 2009 8:22 pm ET

Dan, I didn't realize that Peres' speech was in respnse to Erdogan's. That's an important face. Thanks for pointing it out.

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 8:24 pm ET

There's an old saying, I've told my children many times, Birds of a feather flock together. Everyone needs a support group. Hi Nona. There are sooo many speaches. It's beginning to sound repetitive.

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 8:33 pm ET

I think a speech needs to be given on the merits of peace. Perhaps the young people should give it since it involves their future.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 8:36 pm ET

Dan;

I didn't realize that-- I was only going by the information in the article above!!

That sheds adifferent light on the subject!

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 8:40 pm ET

Usually in a debate a person speaks first. The next person responds. The person who started is given a couple of minutes, limited, to respond. It sounds like this got messed up or was messed up to me.

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 8:42 pm ET

Perhaps it wasn't considered a debate but two people given time to speak. Counting minutes, in that case, seems petty.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 8:51 pm ET

Perez Speach was not in response to Erdugan... come on guys you never attended a conference?

Speakers on one panel are given equal times to speak. And then equal time to rebut. That was not what happened there. Erdugan spoke for 12 minutes and Perez spoke for 25 minutes.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 8:59 pm ET

Well well
now zionists discuss conferences.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:00 pm ET

Well well
now zionists discuss conferences as if they are human beings like us.

Wanted

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 9:01 pm ET

It sounds like Prime Minister Ergodan started and began verbally attacking Israeli actions. Then Peres was next and heatedly defended them so the moderator decided to stop it. It wasn't about minutes or who went first, it was about stopping verbal attacks.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 9:05 pm ET

GLeigh,

were you there? You sure sound like you were present at the conference.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:09 pm ET

Zionists,
Erdugan has made a mistake when he accepted to sit with a war criminal in the same room.This is not acceptable in politics; presidents, prime ministers, and all official figures should not legitimize a killer by discussing with him.
They say that erdugan has become a hero by leaving the room. This is stupid and even the normal relations between turkey and the zionist organization is pathological .

WANTED

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 9:10 pm ET

Nope. Just read about it. Like the rest of you. Were you there Sam? If so, please tell us how it played out. Was the purpose to reach peace? Anyway, talking is better than not talking. Hopefully they will do better the second time around.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:11 pm ET

SAM
GLEIGH and the other zionists know everything!!!!!!!!

WANTED

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:13 pm ET

CARLOS
THANKS FOR THE TIP.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 9:13 pm ET

Sam,

OK-- so what is the "truth"??????

Seems like no one really saw the exchange!

But, per the article above- "it wasn't personal". It was the moderator, not Perez that Erdugan was pi$$ed off at!

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 9:15 pm ET

Hey Mo. I just read about it. There are articles on the internet if you care to read them too. I wasn't there. Apparently Sam might have been because apparently these articles were mistaken in how it happened.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 9:17 pm ET

Its surprisng how Dan and GLeigh get to know what is going on there as if they were present... None of the news agencies reported what Dan or GLeigh said... do you have an insider at Davos?

harvey   January 31st, 2009 9:17 pm ET

Shimon Peres far from being a war criminal is a championof peace..He is an idealist...please read what he stands for...

The Peres Center for Peace http://www.peres-center.org

Our mission is to build an infrastructure of peace and reconciliation by and for the people of the Middle East that promotes socio-economic development, while advancing cooperation and mutual understanding.

The Peres Center for Peace is an independent, non-profit, non-partisan, non-governmental organization founded in 1996 by President of Israel and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Mr. Shimon Peres, with the aim of furthering his vision in which people of the Middle East region work together to build peace through socio-economic cooperation and development, and people-to-people interaction. The first Director General of the Peres Center was Ambassador Uri Savir, who, together with Shimon Peres, established the organization and currently serves as President.
Through extensive communication and interaction with Arab partners, the Peres Center has come to understand that sustainable peace and stability can only be developed in the Middle East region through the elevation of social and economic capacities. Accordingly, the peacebuilding activities of the Peres Center focus on common Arab and Israeli social, economic, developmental, cultural and educational interests, with an emphasis on nurturing Palestinian-Israeli relations. The Peres Center designs and facilitates tangible peacebuilding projects that address these interests, utilizing cross-border, regional and international partnerships to bring these initiatives to fruition.

The Peres Center's peacebuilding activities are based on five main pillars:

The first pillar is People-to-People Dialogue and Interaction. The cumbersome machinery of governments together with their shifting policies cannot always fulfill peacebuilding aspirations, and therefore, civil society cooperation is the foundation upon which future peace must be established. The Peres Center has launched a wide array of different programs which engage civil society leaders through common platforms, empowering them to serve as "agents of change" in their respective communities. In this vein, the Peres Center has initiated various activities in the fields of Education, Academia, Politics, Healthcare, Community Leadership, Sport and Professional Exchange.

The second pillar is Capacity-Building through Cooperation. The Peres Center undertakes a concerted effort to increase the capacities of various sectors in the Palestinian Authority, Jordan and Egypt through interaction with their Israeli counterparts, in the belief that it is in Israel's interest to be surrounded by neighbors with strong and viable economies and stable societies. Such activities support these sectors en-route to expanding and prospering, whilst simultaneously creating opportunities for cross-border relations and partnerships. In this vein, the Peres Center has initiated numerous projects in the fields of Agriculture, Medicine and Healthcare, and Information Technology.

The third pillar is Nurturing a Culture of Peace in the Region's Youth. Recognizing that today's youth are tomorrow's leaders, and that the "next" generation must embrace peace as a central objective, the Peres Center has initiated challenging and creative programs designed to change mindsets and alter the negative stereotypes that have evolved, in fields such as Sport, Education and Culture, and Information Technology.

The fourth pillar is Business and Economic Cooperation. As the Palestinian and Israeli private sectors are intertwined and interdependent, strong and viable economies serve to benefit both sides, and contribute to thriving societies and systems. The Peres Center designs and implements joint programs and activities that facilitate cross-border partnerships and contribute to the development of each independent economy, on both a micro and macro level. In this vein, the Peres Center has initiated various projects in the field of Business & Economics.

The fifth pillar is Humanitarian Responses. In light of the dire situation that exists in certain areas of the Palestinian Authority as a result of the lack of infrastructural development and continuing conflict, the Peres Center cooperates with Palestinian partners to provide real-time responses to humanitarian crises, initiating a major project in the field of Medicine and Healthcare, that aims to reduce morbidity and alleviate the mortality rate among Palestinian babies and children.
The Peres Center is able to implement its peacebuilding activities through contributions from governments, corporations, foundations, organizations and private individuals

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:19 pm ET

WANTED WAR CRIMINALS: USED ILLEGAL WEAPONS IN A WAR AGAINST CHILDREN, WOMEN AND CIVILIANS IN GAZA

Anyone who has information about the suspects when they are outside of the Israeli
borders, report immediately to:

The Prosecutor POBox 195192500 Hague Netherlands Fax +31 70 515 8
555
otp.informationdesk@icc-cpi.int

* All calls will be treated in confidence

HELP JUSTICE AND TELL THE WORLD

http://justicenownetwork.blogspot.com/2009/01/wanted-war-criminals.html

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 9:20 pm ET

Mohammed,

And Erdugan is even more respected for having further discusion with Perez and acknowledging the propblem was with the moderator of the discussion.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:24 pm ET

sam
it's not about the meeting; it's about an illegal organization that commits war crimes.period.

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 9:24 pm ET

Sam – You asked me if I was there. I told you no and asked if you were there. The articles that I read are here on the internet. Look them up if you don't believe me. Mo are you speaking about the ones who fired rockets from populated areas knowing there would eventually be a response, those areas that had not one bomb shelter for the civilians? Well this is getting to be old stuff. Over and Over. What about doing that seems right to you?

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:25 pm ET

carlos
May be!!

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:28 pm ET

Carlos
if the problem was with the moderator, what do you call this:

“I know the reason behind raising your voice is because of the guilty psychology,” he said to Peres. “My voice will not be that loud. You must know that. When it comes to killing — you know killing very well. I know how you hit, kill children on the beaches.”

Libra   January 31st, 2009 9:29 pm ET

The Israel Defense Forces says it has "severely reprimanded" an officer for distributing a religious booklet urging soldiers to show no mercy to their enemies.

The army says the booklet was based on the writings of an ultranationalist rabbi identified with the Jewish settler movement in the West Bank.

Some passages compared Palestinians to the biblical Philistines and suggested they had no right to land claimed by Israel. An Israeli rights group has said the passages bordered on "incitement to racism."

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 9:31 pm ET

It seems to me that when people cannot logically or morally win an argument, then they threaten to "report" them and post info to do that reporting. Typical. Some view Israeli actions as self defense. Some see it as killing. I wish the reasons behind all of it had never existed, such as missiles and rockets.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 9:31 pm ET

Mohammed,

You're pretty funny!! The International Criminal Court at The Hague has already made a public statement that it will only consider charges in the Israeli/Palestininian conflict if they are presented to the court by UN Security Council Resolution!

I guess you've missed that minor point.

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 9:35 pm ET

I hope that in future speeches and attempts to work out solutions, the participants are more self restrained and actually accomplish something useful. Name calling is not what it's about.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:38 pm ET

Carlos
Any conversation is a rule-governed and structured event. One of its basic elements is equality at the ethical level. Do you think a conversation would succeed between a person who participates in the mass-slaughter and a politician who is clean.
I remember when the Nobel Prize winner said to mohammed krichane in aljazeera, "why do you show the images of the dead infants?Why? You should not do it".

Is this the kind of persons we should talk to in a forum?

Nona   January 31st, 2009 9:38 pm ET

Interesting how people post all this so-called information, reports, etc. and never provide a source or a link to the information they quote, yet they still expect us to consider it to be reliable information.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 9:40 pm ET

Mohammed,

You need to read all of the article, not just part of it.

See below--- this is why he walked off the the stage!

It's quite clear!

"He then left the stage, complaining that Peres was receiving preferential treatment."

“From now on, Davos is finished for me,” Erdogan said. “I will not come back. You won’t let people talk. You gave him 25 minutes, but you gave me 12 minutes. This is not right.”

harvey   January 31st, 2009 9:42 pm ET

Peres is a great statesman and has proved his commitment to peace time and time again

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 9:44 pm ET

Mo – More name calling? That's a step forward. My opinion of you, personally, remains. I suggest people google things if interested and read all sides. Think for themselves. For some that might be a challenge.

Nona – I have yet to read anything that anyone posts on here. If I want to bother, I look it up for myself and read various souces. How anything is told depends on the view of the person telling it. Some just like simple name calling. Some try to see facts.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:46 pm ET

carlos
sorry, i didn't miss this point. you did because there other legal procedures.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 9:48 pm ET

Nona,

I agree with you... neither Dan not GLeigh provided any sources for their inside information.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:48 pm ET

carlos
the part i copied is revealing, isn't it?

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 9:49 pm ET

From what I read, and you can look it up for yourself, it started off with a speech that was basically a verbal attack on the Israeli defensive in Gaza. A big verbal attack. Peres then came next and began heatedly defending Israel. Then the moderator tried to stop it. Erdogan began tapping him on the arm so talked some but it was all stopped. Probably a good thing. This is the report. I wasn't there. Apparently someone else saw something different.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 9:50 pm ET

GLeigh,

Yes I agree... and having a terrorist speak at Davos and spread lies without allowing anyone to respond back to him is a huge mistake and everyone who respect himself should've left the meeting.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 9:51 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi January 31st, 2009 2138 GMT

Any conversation is a rule-governed and structured event. One of its basic elements is equality at the ethical level.
Is this the kind of persons we should talk to in a forum?

*********************************

Mohammed,

It was Erdugan's choice to participate in the forum. No one forced him.

Are you upset that he was there?? What's your point???

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:53 pm ET

gleigh
i don't know you on the personal level; that's why it would be stupid to use name calling. I use names to qualify your ideology.that's it.

Nona   January 31st, 2009 9:53 pm ET

Sam - they're not the only ones. Neither has Libra or Mohammad. And benyemen is mangling famous quotes left and right.

My comments don't apply to one side or another. Basic rules of evidence dictate that if you make a claim, you back it up with evidence.

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 9:54 pm ET

From the first, this forum seemed to begin on attack mode. It was a mistake. I hope in future forums, if there any, that it will begin in a different manner, one that seeks peaceful answers. When my daughter doesn't get her way, she stomps off too. There was a lot of stomping that day it sounds like.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 9:56 pm ET

carlos
are you blind? i made my point before.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 9:57 pm ET

GLeigh,

If you allow a terrorist to spread lies at a meeting such as Davos without a response you will not get anything accomplished either.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 10:02 pm ET

Nona
since you always advance evidence when arguing in favor of the rightness of your viewpoint and the wrongness of ours concerning the war in gazza, could you give us evidence that hamas fighters were hiding behind women?

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 10:02 pm ET

Spreading lies? I think the whole world pretty much knows that Gaza was firing on Israel and Israel responded, not meekly, and there's not many ways to twist that up. You can accuse, seek sympathy, or blame, but not lie about it. It is what it is.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 10:03 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi January 31st, 2009 2146 GMT

carlos
sorry, i didn’t miss this point. you did because there other legal procedures.

Mohammed;

I responed to your post which was specific to the ICC at the Hague, nothing more!!

So, it's quite obvious you did miss something. Sorry!

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 10:07 pm ET

GLEIGH
In the next forums, israelis should be left alone arguing and arguing again and again because any decent politician will have to pay the price in any subsequent elections if he might think that discussions will lead to something fruitful with you.
Nona
Evidence: The negociations since Oslo have led to one result: more colonies, more prisoners, more drama.

The claim: conversation with occupiers is a waste of time.
Example: Abbas.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 10:09 pm ET

Mohammed,

Here is one piece of evidence of the criminality and terrorist behavior of Hamas'

If you want more, you should make the effort to inform youself through your own investigative sources.

Cremonesi, a correspondent for Italys’ Corriere della sera, interviewed Gazans who echoed Israels’ insistence of how Hamas gunmen used civilians as human shields. One Gazan recalled civilians in Gaza shouting at Hamas and Islamic Jihad men, "Go away, go away from here! Do you want the Israelis to kill us all? Do you want our children to die under their bombs? Take your guns and missiles with you."
"Traitors, collaborators with Israel, spies of Fatah, cowards! The soldiers of the holy war will punish you. And in any case you will all die, like us. Fighting the Zionist Jews we are all destined for paradise. Do you not wish to die with us?" the religious fanatics of Hamas reportedly responded.
Other Palestinians told Cremonesi of Hamas operatives donning paramedic uniforms and commandeering ambulances. A woman identified as Um Abdullah, 48, spoke of Hamas using UN buildings as launch pads for rockets. Cremonesi reported that he had difficultly gathering evidence as the local population was terrified of Hamas.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 10:10 pm ET

GLeigh,

I think only your world that knows that.... the rest of the World as I know it accuses an occupying power of attacking innocent unarmed civilians and kill babies.... Come one... there are war crimes cases filed against Israeli's all over the world.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 10:11 pm ET

CARLOS
I feel sorry for you when it comes to the international law. Relax,; i will not embarrass you more.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 10:14 pm ET

Carlos,

Occupations in the history of the world allways accused the resistence of the peoples its occupying of terrorism. That does not make them really terrorists. A state that uses military to kill babies, women and unarmed civilians is the terrorist in the eyes of the whole world.

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 10:16 pm ET

Sam – I think they are accusing the wrong people of war crimes. I can't blame them for being afraid, honestly, of the more violent people. That's my opinion. I saw an Israeli soldier was killed by a bomb the other morning. Someone must be armed. I see shooting and bombs. Why are innocent unarmed civilians and babies in this at all? How did they get in the mix?

Sam   January 31st, 2009 10:17 pm ET

Carlos,

Come on you guys.... you cannot find any journalist to agree with you except for Cremonesi.... you and others keep mentioning that name as if he is an authority.... on the other hand.... all the news agency... International organizations says the opposite.... War crime cases are being filed all over the world and you still live in denial.

Wake up man.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 10:19 pm ET

GLeigh,

1300 civilians murdered in Gaza by Israel and you talk about one Israeli soldier killed?

Wow... what planet do you live on?

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 10:21 pm ET

Sam – It seems odd to me that anyone that mentions "war crimes" in response to Israeli actions has not been fired upon or threatened to be wiped off the map. Their perspective would probably change.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 10:22 pm ET

Here is a report by an Israeli Peace organization talks about how Israel lied about all the previous agreements and continued building settlements on the West Bank:

http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/peace.asp?pi=61&fld=495&docid=3497

Despite Promises – Land Confiscation Continues Throughout 2008 – January 2009

Hagit Ofran

Report about West Bank land confiscation in 2008
Olmert: "Israel no longer confiscates land in the West Bank, clear and simple."
(Prime Minister at press conference on March 17, 2008)

Official Declarations
Israel has on many different occasions, over the last years, declared that it would no longer confiscate land from Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.
Former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declared in December 2003: "Israel will keep all of its promises regarding construction in the settlements. There will be no construction beyond the existing construction lines, no land confiscation for construction, no special economic incentives and no construction of new settlements." (Sharon at Herzliya Conference, December 18, 2003).
Officially spokespeople reiterated again and again that even if there was some sporadic construction in the settlements, the land confiscation had stopped.
Israel declared it would not seize new lands; any further construction in the settlements would only take place on land Israel had already confiscated in the past.

Confiscations Discovered by Peace Now
In 2008 Peace Now’ in depth investigation has discovered that in the last year alone there were at least 4 confiscations of new lands, of total area of 275 dunams.

1. Beitar Illit - on November 11, 2008 the Civil Administration issued a State Lands Declaration Order for an area of approx 23 dunams of land, belonging to the village of Hussan in the Bethlehem area, near the settlement of Beitar Illit.
Fifteen years ago an Israeli gas station was built on this private land of the residents of Hussan, preventing its owners from continuing to use it. The current declaration aims to retroactively legalize the confiscation originally enacted force and against the law. The declaration order also includes a large area near the gas station, apparently for the purpose of expansion and development.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 10:23 pm ET

carlos
do you have any idea about the density of the cities in gazza?
Well, what about using the artillery in them?
Concerning the italian reporter, what is the evidence you advance that what he says is true or may be he is a mafiosi who belongs to the berlusconi band?
I can even go further and say that if what is said is true , it would have many explanations. one of them is the pressure on one fighter (he is a person after all).
you take one case and you jump to conclusions.
this will not work with us.
finally, i agree that fatah people are traitors. how would you qualify a person who defends fatah while abbas is drinking wine and exchanging hugs with olmert, who kills civilians with phosphorous shells?

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 10:24 pm ET

i think yall should just shut up about everything and be nice to everyone which is what all good religions should teach. i personally think that religion is just a money scheme from the last couple thousand years - her son

GLeigh   January 31st, 2009 10:28 pm ET

Sorry. I was on the phone and he wrote. Tomorrow is the Super Bowl party and the phone is going now. My son hates the violence, but I fussed at him for writing. Not good. I hope everyone attempts to work this out. The young people do hate the violence. It effects them, on many levels. Peace.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 10:28 pm ET

carlos
what about the other organizations who were there?
ONLY CREMONISI SAW THE REALITY. THIS IS CRAZY.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 10:29 pm ET

Sam,

Too bad the whole world, doesn't see things through your eyes. Too bad that the the UN, EU, Japan, the US, ..... on and on agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization. I know it must be hard for you to accept that. But that is the view of "the whole world" !!!

PA, Saudi's, Egypt, Jordan all spoke out against the actions of Hamas and blamed them for the recent conflict in Gaza!

Sorry you lack the ability to accept the fact that there are people in the world who see things differently than you! But that's the way it is.

There is a very simple solution to the plight of the Palestinians, they simply need to come together and make the right choices! The rest of the world is waiting to see what they will do!

Sam   January 31st, 2009 10:33 pm ET

http://www.thecommentfactory.com/shimon-peres-is-a-war-criminal-and-his-potential-knighthood-is-a-travesty-593

It’s no exaggeration to say Mr. Peres’ contributions to the Zionist project in Palestine and the sufferings of the Palestinians and Arabs have not stopped once since the Nakba, the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 1947-1949. His record includes his role in searching for talented officers to join the Haganah terrorist militias — Ben Gurion’s military gang and the predecessor of the Israeli army — which has led to acts of terrorism, killing and forced expulsion against the Palestinians since 1947. Peres became a member of the Haganah’s high command in May 1947 where he was responsible for manpower and arms purchases and production. So to call Peres “Israel’s Dove of Peace” is the reverse of reality.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 10:35 pm ET

Mohammed,

Do you have a comprehension problem??? No matter what I say to you it won't matter, your simply blind to reality.

If you want more examples, you should make the effort to inform youself through your own investigative sources.

I can't help some who does not have the ability to help thereself.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 10:41 pm ET

Carlos,

Obviously you are naive and you lack some world history.... but as
I stated before resistance to occupations throughout the world were identified by the occupiers colonial powers and their supporters as terrorists. Later on when they gain their independence and freedom they became heros.

Just look at the US terror organizations list and see how it has changed over the years.... Its just a matter of time when Hamas become a player on the political arena. Blair and others have already called for involving them.

You cannot sit with your friends and supporters and resolve a conflict.... you have to sit with your enemies. Otherwise the conflict will never be resolved.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 10:50 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi

Yes I fully understand the density of Gaza. I took the time to check it out long ago.

Which brings up a good point!

One thing puzzled me throughout this recent conflict. Hamas continued to hide among the population, launch rockets from the rooftops of the homes, schools and Mosques. Yet the civilians allowed and provided for this, willingly or unwilling– ???They claimed to have no place to go.
The fact is 1/3 of the Gaza Strip is uninhabited arable farmland. Why was it that the population did not leave the urban areas and go to the farm lands??? Why was it that the UN and the ICRC, if they were truly so concerned for the welfare of the civilian population, did not establish refugee camps- tent cities- in the farmlands in the Gaza strip??? They do this all the time in African countries in order to provide a safe haven for those seeking refuge and fleeing violent conflict. They provide huge tent cities for refugees. The UN and ICRC made no effort whatsoever to provide safe haven for these people.
Wonder why that is?? Maybe it’s because that would leave the militants unprotected??? No Shields?? Some sources claim it's because of Hamas' control of the UN and ICRC in Gaza! What’s wrong with this picture??

As far as me vouching for the accuracy of this reporter-- give me break, it's no different than any other reporter. It's their job to be objective and unbiased. It's simply one person who has claimed to have first hand knowledge of the situation.

and for you to somehow try to excuse someone's action such as this " can even go further and say that if what is said is true , it would have many explanations. one of them is the pressure on one fighter (he is a person after all).
you take one case and you jump to conclusions."

Get real-- there is absolutely no acceptable excuse for anyone to do what this reporter claims-–none!!!

But, you'll try to excuse it!!!!!

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 10:54 pm ET

sam
when ex-president jimmy carter said that any peaceful solution in the region should include hamas, the zionists became nuts and started their usual systematic attacks by taking the credibility off the person through using their already identified strategies like either or fallacy.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 10:57 pm ET

Mohammed,

Thats their tactics... you can even see it here on this blog.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 11:00 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi

Is that all you can say????

1) We don't care what others think?

2) The leaders of the neighboring Arab states don't count! They should not have an opinion!

3) GIVE US SOLUTIONS!

Trust me-- you won't be giving me anything, because I'm not there and I don't want it!

Grow up, open your eyes and figure it out for yourself. The rest of the world is not going to cater to your ignorance and continued expectaions of state supplied welfare!

It's been 60 years and you're still doing the same ignorant stuff that started the problem! No one else is going to fix it for you because you don't want to hear what anyone else has to say!

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 11:01 pm ET

carlos
whom are you fooling here?
Israelis bombarded even the UNRWA schools and they have used bombs that will have their effects next months.
anyway, since you are intelligent, where should they hide in gazza for weeks?
DO YOU THINK THE WORLD IS STUPID?
EVEN HOSPITALS WERE TARGETTED.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 11:04 pm ET

Oh by the way Nona,

That information was released by an Israeli Human Rights organization.... Not by Palestinians or any other Arab.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 11:05 pm ET

Carlos,

Do you think all the Human Rights organizations are ganging up against Israel now?

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 11:08 pm ET

Sam January 31st, 2009 2241 GMT

Obviously you are naive and you lack some world history

You cannot sit with your friends and supporters and resolve a conflict…. you have to sit with your enemies. Otherwise the conflict will never be resolved.

Sam,

I probably do lack some "world history according to Sam" ! Ha!!!

However, currently the rest of the world is waiting on the Palestinians to decide who's in charge!!!! Waiting for them to speak with one voice! Waiting for Hamas to renounce violence! Waighting for Hamas ro recognize the State of Israel and their right to exist. Waiting for Hams to agree to accept all previous agreements between the Israel and the PA.

The ball is in the court of the Palestinians. They simply need to decided among themselves if they want to play ball.

mohammed gharbawi   January 31st, 2009 11:11 pm ET

CARLOS
May be we are ignorant because you destroy our schools, but one thing for sure : we will never give up fight.
Algerians did it again and again and now they are free. are they stupid according to the logic of einstein?
IN ADDITION TO THIS/
1- yes, we have a just cause and we intend to defend it; we dont care about the part of the world that supports the killing of infants. our enemy is israel and we should focus on it.
2- yes, those dogs dont count for us. do you have any problem with that? You say you are a democracy (see how many have been killed for a usual election!!!!!!), why dont you try to spread it in the nearby countries?
3-if growing up is letting you humiliate us, then i prefer to be a kid.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 11:12 pm ET

Carlos,

I think your world is waiting... I have not heard anyone saying that except Israel and its supporters.... But, the rest of the world is just behind the Palestinians people and their human rights.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 11:14 pm ET

Sam January 31st, 2009 2305 GMT

Carlos,

Do you think all the Human Rights organizations are ganging up against Israel now?

Sam,

Certainly- but that's their purpose in life! If they had nothing to complain about they wouldn't have a job! Right now, Israel is a prime target. If they weren't making a lot of noise what would they be doing???

Libra   January 31st, 2009 11:18 pm ET

Israel often acknowledges — with “regret” — the high civilian tolls of its war; sometimes it goes as far as apologizing for such unintended “mistakes.” The Israeli government however is adamant that it will continue to carry out such attacks; that it’s those who “hide among the civilian population” which deserve the blame, not Israel; that neither Hezbollah nor Palestinian resistance groups seem to care much for the life of Israeli civilians, while Israel does care for Palestinian and Lebanese civilians. In fact, and ironically, according to various Israeli politicians and media pundits, one of Israel’s objectives is to liberate its neighbors from the suffocating grip of terrorists.

The “unintended mistakes” theory, promulgated by Israel’s apologists — read the Bush administration, among others — is utterly inconsistent with claims promoted by Israel and its apologists that Jewish state has the “most moral army in the world”, and that Israel uses the most advanced war technology to avoid harming civilians. These allegations cannot all be accurate, all at once. If Israel is indeed very “moral”, then why does its army continue to repeat the same “unintended mistakes”, over and over again, for decades? Is it possible that the killing and wounding of tens of thousands of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians as a result of those “unintended mistakes” didn’t induce the very moral army to reexamine its tactics and adopt a decisive change in military policy? Wouldn’t that be the “moral” thing to do? (Note that the small village of Qana was bombed by the Israeli air force in 1996, as civilians were seeking shelter in a UN compound, killing over 100 people, including many children and UN peacekeepers.)

The second claim, that Israel strives to obtain high-tech (American) weapon technology to minimize civilian casualties, is also fraudulent. Once again, the numbers indicate the precise antithesis; denoting that either the “fifth strongest army in the world” is so horribly inept, that most of its military strikes result in blunders, or that the killing of civilians is in reality part and parcel of Israel’s military strategy. This latter assertion is the true objective.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 11:22 pm ET

Carlos,

Even Israeli Human Rights organizations and Israeli Human Rights attorneys... they all have too much time on their hand and nothing to do.... wow.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 11:22 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi

Who do you think I am???? What makes you think I live in a democracy??? You assume way too much!!!

You said-- "anyway, since you are intelligent, where should they hide in gazza for weeks?"

Obviously you have comprehension problems. I have already expained this to you. But, I'll try one more time! Do you really have any anwers to these questions ar do simply believe that everyone that fails to agree with you is stupid?

The fact is 1/3 of the Gaza Strip is uninhabited arable farmland. Why was it that the population did not leave the urban areas and go to the farm lands??? Why was it that the UN and the ICRC, if they were truly so concerned for the welfare of the civilian population, did not establish refugee camps— tent cities— in the farmlands in the Gaza strip??? They do this all the time in African countries in order to provide a safe haven for those seeking refuge and fleeing violent conflict. They provide huge tent cities for refugees. The UN and ICRC made no effort whatsoever to provide safe haven for these people.
Wonder why that is?? Maybe it’s because that would leave the militants unprotected??? No Shields?? Some sources claim it’s because of Hamas’ control of the UN and ICRC in Gaza! What’s wrong with this picture??

Can you explain this???? Or is the rest of the world simply stupid?

Sam   January 31st, 2009 11:24 pm ET

Carlos,

You expect the whole population vacate thier homes and go sit in the empty land?

You gotta be kidding.

Libra   January 31st, 2009 11:29 pm ET

@Carlos

For your information, the recent Israeli attack on Gaza was a 24-hour a day raining of bombs from air, sea and ground. Including attacks on UNWRA and Red Cross workers. Can you come up with a plan of how in God's name would they have been able to set up these desert tents while the bombs whwre showering down on them?

moses   January 31st, 2009 11:31 pm ET

carlos
if our rockets are a threat to you, why dont you hide in 50 percent of israel , i mean shelters and rest there forever.

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 11:31 pm ET

If I am a Palestinian I will not accept Gaza and the west bank as a future Palestinian state
Israel is keen on saying that the UN created Israel according to the 1947partition.
I will ask for the 1947 partition plan of the UN.

why should the Palestinians be in a hurry? in ten twenty years they will be the Majority in occupied Palestine.they have resisted for 60 years they can do the same for the next sixty years.

Israel will have two options.
1 the Algerian option settlers pack and leave.
2 the S African option one man one vote.
the future is on the side of the Palestinians dont rush things brothers.

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 11:38 pm ET

Sam,

The conflict is with Israel, right??

So the Palestinians either choose to address the issue with Israel or not. No one else will do this for them. Nor will the Palestinians permit anyone to speak for them.

So again, the ball is in the hands of the Palestinians. They need to choose to play or pass!

Sam   January 31st, 2009 11:40 pm ET

Solomon,

Amen. :)

Sam   January 31st, 2009 11:42 pm ET

Carlos,

Yes the conflict is with the occupiers (Israel)... All what Palestinians have to do is resist.... Israel have to beg if they want to play.

moses   January 31st, 2009 11:43 pm ET

carlos
if what i say shows to you that i have comprehension problems, then you should have a processing problem.
by the way mohammed gharabawi has been censored to let carlos get his message across.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 11:44 pm ET

By the way Solomon,

Israelis do know that it will eventually come to that point thats why they all have purchased land all over europe and they all have dual citizenship. So, its just a matter of time before they pack and leave or accept to live with the Palestinians in peace.

moses   January 31st, 2009 11:47 pm ET

sam
you said some of your messages did not show up. i think mohammed has been censored too. the us is a democracy too.

Sam   January 31st, 2009 11:49 pm ET

moses,

I agree.... Israel is a democracy as well. LMAOROTF

I.B. Wright   January 31st, 2009 11:50 pm ET

Libra- Good points . Anyone who looks at this with an objective eye can see through the Israeli propaganda. How many times did the UN tell the IDF their bombs were getting a little too close to their position on southern Lebanon and asked them to stop before Israel finally hit them, killing 12. Israel called it an accident even though they were warned several times to stop. If that was an isolated incident, one might buy it but as you point out, history keeps repeating itself. Israel thinks it's immune to UN retaliation thanks to the U.S.'s position and support on the Security Council but sooner or later that will disappear. They justify killing children in schools because they claim there were terrorists in the vicinity. Well, I personally think it is disgusting because there is no justification for deliberately bombing a school full of children, regardless of how many terrorists (if any) were in it. It's almost laughable to hear people ranting that the IDF never targets innocent women and children but Hamas does. Really?

moses   January 31st, 2009 11:53 pm ET

carlos
you ignore history. may be your father was burnt in germany before telling it to you.

Solomon   January 31st, 2009 11:57 pm ET

Sam.

1947 plan is 60% for Jews and 40% for Palestinians.
I know that the Arabs refused it at the time.
and Israel is refusing to give back the occupied west bank and Gaza.
so if Israel can change her mind according to the circumstances the Palestinians Arabs should do the Same.
the partition plan should be what the Palestinian ask for.
or as i say not to rush things .

Carlos   January 31st, 2009 11:59 pm ET

Sam, Libra,

It's like I stated. Neither UNWRA not the ICRC made any attempt to make accomodations for the civilians outside of the urban areas as they have done untold numbers of times in African countries-- they simply never tried at all! This kind of effort in African countries of conflict has never been considered stupid. these people had sense enought ot leave their villages and areas of conflict and "go sit in the open fields"-- because that's where the UN and the ICRC was!!!!

I simply question the motivation for them to remain in the midst of the conflict.

Sam-– I seriously don't think that Israel is in such a predicament that they feel the need to "beg" the Palestinians to play. If the Palstinians choose to "pass", the Israelis can continue respond to every breach peace as they see fit. Unfortuantely, the ones who will pay the price are the ones who are forced to stand between the terrorists and the IDF.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 12:00 am ET

Break the Silence : Holocaust in Gaza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnZPOVHwKoU&feature=related

Bill   February 1st, 2009 12:00 am ET

I see the terrorist supporters are back with their outright lies and their pitiful excuses. It's OK for us to be violent and destructive and to attack Israeli civilians because Israel is on the land that we lost when we attacked them and lost in 1967. Boohoohoo

England didn't get its colonies back from America after it lost them during the Revolutionary War. After 60 years of murder, destruction, and terrorism, these terrorist supporters have learned nothing.

The rest of the world will move on, grow, learn, and evolve. The Palestinians and Islamic terrorists will just end up killing themselves by fighting among themselves and attacking others for made up causes that boil down to their own ignorance and arrogance. Then they will spend eternity in hell asking themselves why they constantly chose evil when they were given so many opportunities for good. Such is their choice.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 12:02 am ET

Carlos,

See the whole world is against you.... UN, UNRWA, ICRC, all the human rights organizations.... everyone is wrong.... you are the only one who is right.... NOT.

moses   February 1st, 2009 12:02 am ET

carlos
ypu are probably right. palestinians have to chose. but you too. you should chose where to die.
this is not an extremist view and ill prove it to you sinse you fail to understand, idiot.
the so called "israel" will face two dramatic problems:
1-water.
2- they will be outnumbered by palestinians.
In the case of water, we will rely on our brothers.
in the case of opulation, we are superior because sex for us is like oxygen.

Nona   February 1st, 2009 12:04 am ET

Solomon: why should the Palestinians be in a hurry? in ten twenty years they will be the Majority in occupied Palestine.they have resisted for 60 years they can do the same for the next sixty years.

You hit the nail on the head. The Palestinians (or their proxies, the leaders of the Arab world) have CHOSEN to sit right where they are for the last 60 years and they're content to do it for 60 more. Or whatever.

When you choose to stay in a situation, you don't get to whine about how repressed you are how you're such a "victim." You're making a choice. Suck it up and live with the consequences or make a different choice.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 12:04 am ET

Bill,

Israel is the one who started the 1967... it looks like you need to go back to read some history books.

Unless you really enjoy living in denial. Its up to you... the ball is in your court.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 12:06 am ET

Nona,

Its really impressive how you ignore some of the comments directed to you... and you choose to reply to ones that were not directed to you.

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 12:12 am ET

Obviously, the State of Israel has absolutely no connection with either Jews or Judaism. Furthermore, Torah-true Jews did not participate in the founding of the State, and for decades, we have announced our disapproval and disassociation from the State of Israel at every opportunity

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/news/currentarticle.cfm?id=156

Libra   February 1st, 2009 12:14 am ET

The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated pieces of property in the world. The presence of militants within a civilian population does not, under international law, deprive that population of their protected status, and hence any assault upon that population under the guise of targeting militants is, in fact, a war crime.

Members of Hamas are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Dozens of these elected leaders have been kidnapped and held in Israeli prisons without charge. Others have been targeted for assassination, such as Nizar Rayan, a top Hamas official. To kill Rayan, Israel targeted a residential apartment building. The strike not only killed Rayan but two of his wives and four of his children, along with six others. There is no justification for such an attack under international law. This was a war crime.

Lie:
Israel is not responsible for civilian deaths because it warned the Palestinians of Gaza to flee areas that might be targeted???

Israel claims it sent radio and telephone text messages to residents of Gaza warning them to flee from the coming bombardment. But the people of Gaza have nowhere to flee to. They are trapped within the Gaza Strip. It is by Israeli design that they cannot escape across the border. It is by Israeli design that they have no food, water, or fuel by which to survive. It is by Israeli design that hospitals in Gaza have no electricity and few medical supplies with which to treat the injured and save lives. And Israel has bombed vast areas of Gaza, targeting civilian infrastructure and other sites with protected status under international law. No place is safe within the Gaza Strip.

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 12:14 am ET

moses January 31st, 2009 2343 GMT

carlos
if what i say shows to you that i have comprehension problems, then you should have a processing problem.

Moses,

I've not addressed any posts to you-- you must be paranoid or something.

But please, don't assume that I am Israeli or Jewish-- I am neither.

And if there is something in history you feel I have confused, please enlighten me!

Sam   February 1st, 2009 12:15 am ET

That is very conveniet Nona.... you can go back up and read my comments to you.... in reply to your Human Shields links.

moses   February 1st, 2009 12:15 am ET

Bill
sorry ,we attacked you in 1967?

Ok! let's assume we attacked you; when someone attacks another , i think ,according to your logic, he gives it back because we cannot take a land with its population forever.
that's why i always say:
its the occupation stupid.

moses   February 1st, 2009 12:17 am ET

carlos
im not a human being either.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 12:19 am ET

Moses,

What Bill said is not true.... You have to check on every statement these liars make.... Israel was first to attack in 1967 according to all the history books.

Nona   February 1st, 2009 12:20 am ET

The truth hurts the poor Palestinians for sure, Solomon.

Sacrificed on the bloody altar of Arab pride, reduced to being the pawns of corrupt Arab kings and dictators for 60 years. Ouch.

Say what you want about the Jews, but they sure don't leave their brethern to rot like spoiled meat for 60 years, then whine about how unfair it is while at the same time barring their doors to them and stealing the foreign aid intended for them.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 12:21 am ET

Listen to my congressman speaking on the issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htZwoFYqgGM&feature=related

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 12:22 am ET

"live with the consequences or make a different choice"
Nona
we have already made a choice be sure about that.
the choice is to defeat the Occupation and the settler state.

.

Nona   February 1st, 2009 12:25 am ET

Sorry Sam - I went back to check as your requested but I don't even see my links anymore, so I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about.

Is this the comment you want me to respond to?

"Oh by the way Nona,

That information was released by an Israeli Human Rights organization…. Not by Palestinians or any other Arab."

If not, repeat the question or tell me what time it posted so I can find it.

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 12:25 am ET

Nona.

we will give you two choices. you have to pick one fast, time is not on your side.

1 the Algerian option.
2 the S African option.

Nona   February 1st, 2009 12:27 am ET

Thanks, Solomon.

I choose a two-state solution with neighbors who help each other and live in peace.

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 12:28 am ET

Libra February 1st, 2009 014 GMT

Lie:
Israel is not responsible for civilian deaths because it warned the Palestinians of Gaza to flee areas that might be targeted???

Libra--

How is this a lie? It's well documented fact in both westrern media andArab media!

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 12:30 am ET

Nona.
two state solution is dead.
it will be one man one vote no future for settlers in Palestine.

moses   February 1st, 2009 12:30 am ET

nona
is true our brothers should not let us down for 60 years. well, may be you mean the kings and presidents that the western democracies have put there.
ok, we dont care about this; all we cae about is eliminate you fromthe map with the help of our supporters all around the globe.
the world hates you. dont bet on politicians.

Nona   February 1st, 2009 12:31 am ET

Solomon: Nona
we have already made a choice be sure about that.
the choice is to defeat the Occupation and the settler state.

And how's that working out for you guys?

I suppose it's easy for you to make that choice, sitting in a comfy chair in Lebanon in front of a computer. Maybe the people who actually have to live with the consequences of your coise should have a say.

moses   February 1st, 2009 12:34 am ET

carlos
either you are not 18 , or you suffer from an irreparable brain damage. go to sleep nasty boy.

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 12:38 am ET

Nona.
remember we did that in Lebanon.
we told you to leave but you decide to stay. you know what happened to your Israeli defeated forces in Lebanon.
the same thing will happen in Palestine time is not an issue.

I know that you are going to say I am an American.
yes you are with a dual citizenship but you prefer the Israeli right Nona.

Nona   February 1st, 2009 12:45 am ET

I don't have dual citizenship, Solomon. That's not even a rational comment.

Come on. You are a worthy adversary and one I happen to respect. You're too smart to resort to such silliness. You can hold your own by using your knowledge and convictions. You don't have to resort to cheap shots and personal fabrications about the pro-Israel people who post here like some of your idiot colleagues do.

And for the record, I am pro-Israel, but I am also pro-Palestinian. The Palestinian people deserve better from everybody - from the Israelis and the Arabs. I hope they get their homeland and live peacefully with all their neighbors, including the Jewish state. There is probably nothing I wish for more.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 12:48 am ET

Nona,

What would you say to those Israeli Soldiers who Refused To Serve In Palestine?

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 12:50 am ET

soloman,

you and your buddies on here are really funny- how you adress everyone as they sre the occupiers, regardless of who they are or where they come from or where they live. It just goes to show how paranoid you are about everyone!

Libra   February 1st, 2009 1:09 am ET

carlos

It was documented, right. But still a lie that Israel is not responsible.

1) Where are the civilians(70,000) suppose to hide under constant attack, even as UN buildings under attack, no cessation of bombardment to put up those paper tents you refer to.

2) Even if civilians are warned, they are not responsible for the actions of enemy targets or actions(Hamas). Collective punishment is a war crime.

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 1:28 am ET

Libra,

those paper tents have saved the lives of untold millions of Africans seeking refuge from invading forces.

My point is- there was simply no effort made to provide this kind of alternative protection that has been so common in dealing with conflicts in Africa.

there was no discussions about it, nothing-- not a word!!! I just find it very strange that the organizations that know so very well how to do this, made no efforts at all.

1/3 of Gaza is uninhabited farmland, but neither the UNWRA nor the ICRC had the forthought to make an effort to get the population to move from the urban areas where they were caught in the middle????

Something is just not right with that whole picture!!!

If you knew the IDF was coming, and you also knew that there was safety in the farmland because the UN and ICRC was there-– what would you do????

Except-– the UN and ICRC was not there!!!!! where were they????

Nona   February 1st, 2009 1:30 am ET

Hamas cares about its people so much that it invests more in building shelters for its rockets than shelters from its people who are supposedly so threatened by "Israeli aggression."

Israel: bomb shelter on every corner.
Gaza: hundreds of miles of tunnels for rockets; not a single bomb shelter for its citizens.

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 1:45 am ET

Nona---

But there are bunkers for the Hamas leadership--- underneath the Shiffa Hospital in Gaza City!!

There's not a safer place in all of the Gaza Stip!

Nona   February 1st, 2009 1:48 am ET

Sam: <i<Nona, What would you say to those Israeli Soldiers who Refused To Serve In Palestine?

Nothing, Sam. That's between them and their country.

Franky   February 1st, 2009 2:14 am ET

Some pretty serious conversations going on over there, huh? Our world leaders know what is best for their country and the world, there's just a lot of frustration and irritation among the world, especially in sensitive times like these. They are our neighbors, regardless of who's rigth or wrong, they will do what's best for the world, just as long communication and support lead the way, at least I believe so.

Take care guys...

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 2:24 am ET

Libra.

it just happen that most Americans and Europeans are decent enough at least to say that there is an occupation.
most Israeli deny that there is an occupation.

to me any one that say there is no occupation my answer to him will be there is no Israel.
if you are an American or from anywhere and you support Israel that is fine with me and you have my respect. but if you deny that there is an occupation then to me you are no different than a Jewish settler who is stealing Palestinian land.

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 2:25 am ET

sorry the post is meant for carlos.

Nona   February 1st, 2009 2:38 am ET

Well, I'm an American, and I don't think most Americans would agree that there is an occupation. A lot would, but not most.

And the 911 celebrations in the West Bank and Gaza didn't do much to endear Americans to the Palestinian cause, even if they do consider the West Bank and Gaza to be "occupied."

Latest poll of American opinion of Operation Cast Lead: politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/24/majority-of-americans-support-israel-during-crisis-says-poll/

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 2:47 am ET

Solomon,

I simply find it ridiculous that you throw the entire world- other than your own Arab population into one bag an address them as occupiers!

I'm neither Jewish, no do I live in Israel, nor am I an American, nor have I ever expressed to you or anyone that there is no occupation. It's like I said before-- seems like you and your brothers are in a state of paranoia and think the enire non- Arab world is "out to get you"!

I simply have a different perspective on the situation than you. I honestly believe the conflict can be resolved. Whereas, I get the distinct impression from most people on these posts who are Palestinian supporters, that there really is no solution!

You said yourself– "a 2 state solution is dead". This shows no flexibility and provides for no future negotians on a possible solution.

You know as well as I do, Israel will never come to the table if this is the position of the Palestinians. The UN and the those member nations will have no reason to promote future negotians either. they simply will not accept that position as a starting point for discussions!

Nona   February 1st, 2009 2:50 am ET

Well said, Carlos.

There is a solution that can suit everybody and it will only be born out of a desire for peace.

If one side has no desire for peace, then both sides are doomed to a fate of pointless violence.

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 3:08 am ET

Carlos.

I did not address you in this blog. you are the one that is attacking me.

as for the two state solution yes it is dead.Israel made sure that it will not happen. by Implanting over four hundred thousand thieves in the west bank and Jerusalem there is no way that there will be a two state solution.in my view the only solution now is a one state for Jews and Palestinians.
it might not be what Israel has planned but this is reality now.
if you have any other suggestions let us hear it..

talk is cheap action is what counts.

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 3:18 am ET

Carlos. is this the two state solution you are talking about?

Asked why there are so many checkpoints, Dr. Barghouti said, "I think the main goal is to fragment the West Bank. Maybe a little bit of them can be justified because they say it's for security. But I think the vast majority of them are basically to block the movement of people from one place to another."

Here's how they block Barghouti: he was born in Jerusalem, grew up in Jerusalem and worked in a hospital there for 14 years. Four years ago he moved to a town just 10 miles away, but now, because he no longer lives in Jerusalem, he can't get back in – ever.

He says he can't get a permit to go. "I asked for a permit to go to Jerusalem during the last year, the last years about 16 times. And 16 times they were rejected. Like most Palestinians, I don't have a permit to go to the city I was born in, to the city I used to work in, to the city where my sister lives."

What he's up against are scores of Israeli settlements dominating the lowlands like crusader fortresses. Many are little cities, and none of them existed 40 years ago. The Israelis always take the high ground, sometimes the hills, and sometimes the homes. And sometimes Arabs are occupied inside their own homes.

One house for example is the highest house on the highest hill overlooking the town of Nablus. 60 Minutes learned that Israeli soldiers often corral the four families who live there and take over the house to monitor movement down below.

Simon and the 60 Minutes team went to an apartment owned by a Mr. Nassif. That morning, Israeli soldiers had apparently entered the apartment, without notice, and remained there when Simon knocked on the door.

"We cannot speak with you, there are soldiers," Nassif told Simon. "We are in prison here."

Asked what was happening, Nassif says, "They are keeping us here and the soldiers are upstairs, we cannot move. We cannot speak with you."

Nassif said he couldn't leave the house and didn't know how long he'd have to stay in place. Asked if they were paying him any money, he told Simon, "You are kidding?"

Abdul Nassif, a bank manager said he had to get to his bank to open the safe, but one of the soldiers wouldn't let him go. He told 60 Minutes whenever the soldiers come they wake everybody up, and herd them into a kitchen for hours while soldiers sleep in their beds. They can't leave or use the phone, or let 60 Minutes in.

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 3:30 am ET

Solomon,

Excuse me, but you should look back at your posts!!!!

"Solomon February 1st, 2009 225 GMT

sorry the post is meant for carlos."

Am I dreaming- or what?????

and no one is attacking you-– I've simply voiced an observation based upon posts from you and others who share the same ideology!

And who are the 400,000 implanted theives? Do you mean the jews who occupy the settlements?

This is by design, don't you see this??? this is their bargaining chip to secure the 2 state solution-– this is what they will give up in order to secure a settlement with the Palestinians-- don't you see this???

they will force the removal of the settlers when the Plestinians agree to the 2 state solution! Just as they forced the removal of the jews from Gaza!

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 3:36 am ET

Carlos.

Jews in Gaza were 7000 compare that to over 400.000 in the west bank.
do you think it is possible?

I personally dont think so.

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 3:38 am ET

Carlos.
is this a country that is looking for peace.

The wholesale destruction of farms, greenhouses, dairy parlours, livestock, chicken coops and orchards has damaged food production, which was already hit by the blockade.

Buildings heavily damaged during Israel's Operation Cast Lead included much of its agricultural infrastructure. The Ministry of Agriculture was targeted, the agriculture faculty at al-Azhar university in Beit Hanoun largely destroyed, and the offices of the Palestinian Agricultural Relief Committees in Zaitoun – which provides cheap food for the poor – ransacked and vandalised by soldiers who left abusive graffiti.

Although international and local officials are still gathering figures, they believe that scores, perhaps hundreds, of wells and water sources have been damaged and several hundred greenhouses have been levelled, as well as severe damage inflicted on 60,000-75,000 dunums of Gaza's 175,000 dunums (44,000 acres) of farmable land.

As well as the physical damage done by Israeli bulldozers, bombing and shelling, land has been contaminated by munitions, including white phosphorous, burst sewerage pipes, animal carcasses and even asbestos used in roofing. In many places, the damage is extreme. In Jabal al-Rayas, once a thriving farming community, every building has been knocked down, and even the cattle killed and left to lie rotting in the fields.

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 3:53 am ET

Carlos.

I am from Lebanon. we have suffered from Israeli occupation for over twenty years. we did not suffer as much as the Palestinians but we know what it means to be under foreign occupation .

Israel is not a country that is looking for peace.Israel is a country that flourish with war peace will be deadly for Israel.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 3:55 am ET

Israel is not looking for Peace.... Thats not how you make peace with your neighbors.... If my neighbor was blocking all my doorways not allowing me to leave my home I would do something about it. And he is not going to like what i am going to do.... :)

GLeigh   February 1st, 2009 3:58 am ET

Good luck all. I keep hoping to read that someone has a perfect solution I guess. Hearing both can't hurt. There have been wrongs done by both and both are very resentful. That's why one state isn't a good answer. I think two states with outside, unbiased monitors and maybe a tall wall between them is a better idea. Probably someone would start shooting at the wall though. Later.

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 4:04 am ET

Solomon,

You never know until you sit down the table and have a serious discussion-- so far this has not happened!!!

From what I know of President Obamas' envoy to the Middle East, Sen. George Mitchell, I believe he will deal firmly and fairly with those involved in this conflict. Sen. Mitchell had a most profound statement at his State Department announcement by President Obama-
Sen. Mitchell- " I have never seen a conflict that could not be solved. Conflicts are made by people, conflicts are sustained by people, conflicts can resolved by people."

Please do not discount or take lightly the efforts of the free world to assist in the resolution of the problem between the Palestinians and the Israelis. The support for a reasonable solution is not something that will go on forever without end. Help needs to embraced when it is offered.

Nona   February 1st, 2009 4:09 am ET

Solomon.

I know it's frustrating for you. I know it infuriates you. I know you really care.

Please do not give up on peace as a real option and a real possibility.

In the end, the Palestinians and the Israelis DO want the same things: a good life for their children, freedom to worship, economic opportunities, safe homes, and neighbors who are also friends.

In the horror of the last 60 years, it's easy for all sides to forget that they're not as different as they think they are.

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 4:09 am ET

Nona– GLeigh-- I agree, you look alike!!

My mistake!!

Solomon   February 1st, 2009 4:12 am ET

Carlos.

meetings have been going on for 15 years.
the only thing that happened is the Implanted thieves have grown two fold since then..

and a wall of shame as high as the Berlin wall was built on Palestinian land.
the west bank look like a swiss cheese now.

Carlos. nice talking to you hope to continue another time .

good morning and good evening to all.

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 4:24 am ET

Solomon,

I make no excuses for the destruction caused by the Iraelis.

I'm just not sure how to express to you how I feel about the Israelis' right to make certain their own security.

Hamas has much to be accountable for in this situation, as do the Israelis. Did the Israelis overstep their bounds in the amount of devastation they caused- probably so!!! Were they provoked into a response that could have been avoided- yes!

Solomon-- I know there are Christians and Muslims in Lebanon-- are there Jews also??? Do you mind to tellme your faith???

Nona   February 1st, 2009 4:28 am ET

Good night, Solomon. I enjoyed talking to you tonight.

May you awake to a peaceful Lebanon in the morning.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 6:15 am ET

Carlos,

The security of the european Jews should not be on the account of the security of the Palestinians and on the Palestinians land. I do not wish to see harm on any of them or thair families but becuase of what they have done to the Palestinians I wish that their futur days will be filled by horror more horrible than what they have shown to the Palestinians. I wish to one Israeli family to loose one child or more for every Palestinian family who lost one or more of its children. Only then the european jews who migrated to Palestine and settled in a Palestinian home might realize what they have done and will move back to europe where they came from and try to find their security there.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 7:15 am ET

Carlos,

Its not my land... I am not Palestinian.... but those Israelis who wished this to happen to the Palestinians do not deserve any better. Did you hear Erdogan how hey said some of those Army Generals told him that they feel happiness when their tanks and weapons shoot at Palestinian childrens? They are the sick puppies who do not deserve a place in the civilized world. Listen to the Israeli soldiers who refused to serve in Palestine and learn from them.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 7:23 am ET

Carlos,

Listen to what happened in Venezuela yesterday.... All this becuase what happend in Gaza by the Israelis... The Jews there were told this never happened in the past.... You reap what you sow.

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 8:05 am ET

Sam,

Please don't assume that the agressions against the Palestinians are a result of my doing--they are not--.

Sam- Are you a Palestinian,--– or are you Lebanese??? Just for my own information!!!!

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 8:20 am ET

Sam,

If you hang your hopes on the actions of Chaves, you need to make peace with your maker-- because you're screwed!!! He has sold you and his own people down the river!! There's simply no hope for anyone who follows his policy!

Mike   February 1st, 2009 9:25 am ET

Peres and Erdogan:
Of course I don't agree with anything any jewish official might say about the Gaza Strip because it is another Israeli fraud like almost anything else they do in the middle east.
Mike
Canada

Fawad Ali   February 1st, 2009 9:34 am ET

GLeigh: ".....Your post about atheists and liberals caught my ear. I’m not atheist. I do think there is a God so can’t really go there. Not sure what lthe term iberal means or support as a whole either. I know same sex marriages. Well, I have ......."

Was pointing at Turks and Europeans ........personally I think there is nothing wrong for being a Godless- unlike being a murderer (of innocent people in Gaza)

Liberal Americans unlike Neo conservatives and some Republicans, architect of Iraq war and keepers of blind policy on Israeli-Palestinian issue

Sam   February 1st, 2009 11:38 am ET

Carlos,

No i am not... and I was saying that they are of your doing.... did I say that?

Sam   February 1st, 2009 11:40 am ET

Carlos,

I am a human rights activist period. A human being how cannot accept seeing the killing we saw in Gaza happening in our century and the super power is turning a blind eye on it.

Su Zan   February 1st, 2009 1:41 pm ET

Turkey military has killed a great number of Kurds for their uprising and Erdogan has continually surpressed Christianity. How can one blame Israel for defending themselves. As of now, the Hamas are still shelling Israel thus breaking the cease fire. It shows they are a bully who cannot be trusted to keep their words.

If yr neighbour continuously throws bombs at you, won't you try to stop them? Why is it right for Hamas to throw bombs and not Israel? If there were more Hamas than Israelis killed, its because the Hamas did not build bunkers to shelter their people. Instead, coward Hamas hide behind their citizens when they fire their bombs. Those money for bombs could be used instead to build Gaza and improve the life of their lot.

mohammed gharbawi   February 1st, 2009 1:53 pm ET

"the dove of peace" is a black hawk..

WANTED

mohammed gharbawi   February 1st, 2009 2:03 pm ET

People in the arab world admire chavez because they dont trust their leaders anymore. chavez may be a populist polotician, but he has done something that the regular guy in the arab world used to qualify as a dream. you know, every simple step for them is a victory. this shows the amount of hatred and despair that they feel when it comes to the zionist occupation.
it's high time this occupation stopped.

mohammed gharbawi   February 1st, 2009 2:11 pm ET

su zan
as of now israel still maitains its total blockade of gazza.
erdogan is free to do what it takes inside his country, not in an occupied land by force.
this may seem a tiny detail for you; but for us it is the essence of the conflict.

besides, hamas is not your neighbour; it represents a people under occupation. read the international law before posting your lies here.

its stupid again. people died in gazza because of your heavy artillery and f16.
by the way, you expect people to build shelters while they are now as we speak desperately looking for a piece of bread.
shame on occupation and occupation in the 21st century.

benyemen   February 1st, 2009 4:42 pm ET

GOOOOOOOOOOOD EVENINNNNNNG OCCUPIEEEEEEEED PALESTINNNNNNNNNNE.

benyemen   February 1st, 2009 4:52 pm ET

THE ARABS, AFRICAN AND SOME ASIANS SHOULD LOOK ON THE OTHER SIDE OF FACTS, YES WE HAVE BEEN ROBBED BY OCCUPATION, OR COLONISATION BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED BETTER THAN WHEN WE ARE DOING THE DEVELOPMENT OURSELVES.

LOOK AT ALL ARABIC, AFRICAN AND SOME ASIANS COUNTRIES WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN AND WHAT THEY HAVE BECOME AFTER LIBERATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO I SUGGEST THAT WE MAKE CONTRACTS WITH OUR COLONIZORS AND OUR OCCUPIERS TO RUN OUR COUNTRIES FOR US AND WE SIT AND RIP THE FRUITS AS WE DO NOW, NO THINKING OR INNOVATING. AND INSTEAD OF CALLING THEM OCCUPIERS OR COLONISORS WE CALL THEM EXPERTS..............WHAT DO YOU THINK THIRD WORLD?

Fawad Ali   February 1st, 2009 5:02 pm ET

Su Zan,

“Turkey military has killed a great number of Kurds for their uprising and Erdogan has continually suppressed Christianity…….”

agree, Turks are not the beacon of light, but they are right on this one…if Israelis just open their eyes even they will reject what IDF has done ‘killing-spree against civilians’……not even 1% of Hamas is struck by those white-phosphorous-filled bombs.

For more than 3 weeks F16 were just pummeling against unarmed civilian targets

…..in 21st century such acts were not in the wildest imagination of anyone but IDF made it happened – hammering up mountains of flesh and bones(of children and women)……

I don't think any human has guts to defend what IDF has done already

benyemen   February 1st, 2009 5:35 pm ET

FATEH AND HAMAS ARE RESISTANCE FIGHTERS WITH DIFFERENT IDEOLOGIES :

ONE (FATEH) IS STATE WITHOUT RELEGION INTERFERENCE

AND

THE OTHER (HAMAS) IS STATE BASED ON RELIGION DOCTRINE (SHARIA) ISLAMIC LAW.

ONE (FATEH) IS MORE ON POLITICAL SOLUTION (REASON) NOT ENOUGH HELP OR POWER TO OVERCOME THE ISSUE BY POWER.

THE OTHER (HAMAS) ON WARING SOLUTION (REASON) WHAT WAS TAKEN BY FORCE RETURNS BUT BY FORCE.

BUT LETS NOT FORGET BOTH THEY HAVE ONE TARGET IN COMMON.........EXPEL THE OCCUPIERS FROM PALESTINE.

harvey   February 1st, 2009 7:12 pm ET

Frankly I am fed up with the compaqrisons some of you are making about the holocaust and Gaza. It is a subject I know something about as my grandmother was the sole survivor of her family from that regime.

Of course Mohammed in his search for a genuine dialogue and peace has threatened me with the oven. Something that I do not reciprocate despite his bloodthirstiness and rabid threats.

To quote David Harris...

Your invocation of the Holocaust to describe what's taken place in Gaza is, frankly, nothing short of obscene.

Your claim that the grandchildren of the survivors are doing to the Palestinians exactly what was done to them goes beyond any norm of decency, much less honesty.

Approve or disapprove of the Israeli military operation, but there is no basis whatsoever for such a comparison.

When Israel entered Gaza in a war of self-defense in 1967, the population was 360,000. After Israel withdrew totally from Gaza in 2005, it was estimated at 1.4 million.

Would that the Jewish population under Nazi rule had quadrupled!

When Israel entered Gaza in 1967, life expectancy for women was 46. When it left Gaza, it was 73.

Shall we even bother to discuss life expectancy for Jews under Nazi occupation?

The Second World War in Europe lasted from September 1, 1939 to May 8, 1945 – 68 months in all. That means an average monthly extermination rate of nearly 90,000 Jews.

Compare that to the total number of victims in Gaza over three weeks – roughly guesstimated at more or less 1,000 – and recall that the majority were armed fighters committed to Israel's destruction, who used civilians, including children, as human shields, mosques as arms depots, and hospitals as sanctuaries.

Believe me, if the "grandchildren of the Holocaust survivors" had wanted to do exactly what the Nazis did to their grandparents, they would have unleashed their full air, land, and sea power. They would have thrown the Israel Defense Forces' ethical guidelines to the wind, kicked out the UN and Red Cross personnel on the ground, stopped humanitarian transports of food, fuel, and medicine, prevented media reporting, and left absolutely nothing – and no one – standing.

Unless, of course, they needed slave labor, in which case they would have carted off the able-bodied to work in Auschwitz replicas until they dropped. Or material for ghoulish medical experimentation, in which case, in the spirit of Mengele, they would have kept Palestinian twins alive temporarily.

But Israel didn't do any of these things. It's a peace-seeking democracy dedicated to the rule of law – unlike so many of the countries whose horrific sins you blithely choose to overlook.

What are we to make of your selective moral outrage and rank hypocrisy?

harvey   February 1st, 2009 7:13 pm ET

Frankly I am fed up with the comparisons some of you are making about the holocaust and Gaza. It is a subject I know something about as my grandmother was the sole survivor of her family from that regime.

Of course Mohammed in his search for a genuine dialogue and peace has threatened me with the oven. Something that I do not reciprocate despite his bloodthirstiness and rabid threats.

To quote David Harris...

Your invocation of the Holocaust to describe what's taken place in Gaza is, frankly, nothing short of obscene.

Your claim that the grandchildren of the survivors are doing to the Palestinians exactly what was done to them goes beyond any norm of decency, much less honesty.

Approve or disapprove of the Israeli military operation, but there is no basis whatsoever for such a comparison.

When Israel entered Gaza in a war of self-defense in 1967, the population was 360,000. After Israel withdrew totally from Gaza in 2005, it was estimated at 1.4 million.

Would that the Jewish population under Nazi rule had quadrupled!

When Israel entered Gaza in 1967, life expectancy for women was 46. When it left Gaza, it was 73.

Shall we even bother to discuss life expectancy for Jews under Nazi occupation?

The Second World War in Europe lasted from September 1, 1939 to May 8, 1945 – 68 months in all. That means an average monthly extermination rate of nearly 90,000 Jews.

Compare that to the total number of victims in Gaza over three weeks – roughly guesstimated at more or less 1,000 – and recall that the majority were armed fighters committed to Israel's destruction, who used civilians, including children, as human shields, mosques as arms depots, and hospitals as sanctuaries.

Believe me, if the "grandchildren of the Holocaust survivors" had wanted to do exactly what the Nazis did to their grandparents, they would have unleashed their full air, land, and sea power. They would have thrown the Israel Defense Forces' ethical guidelines to the wind, kicked out the UN and Red Cross personnel on the ground, stopped humanitarian transports of food, fuel, and medicine, prevented media reporting, and left absolutely nothing – and no one – standing.

Unless, of course, they needed slave labor, in which case they would have carted off the able-bodied to work in Auschwitz replicas until they dropped. Or material for ghoulish medical experimentation, in which case, in the spirit of Mengele, they would have kept Palestinian twins alive temporarily.

But Israel didn't do any of these things. It's a peace-seeking democracy dedicated to the rule of law – unlike so many of the countries whose horrific sins you blithely choose to overlook.

What are we to make of your selective moral outrage and rank hypocrisy?

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 8:33 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi February 1st, 2009 1411 GMT

its stupid again. people died in gazza because of your heavy artillery and f16.
by the way, you expect people to build shelters while they are now as we speak desperately looking for a piece of bread.
shame on occupation and occupation in the 21st century.

Now Mohammed,

there you go again. Thinking like a true Hamas-- The bombing is over so now it's time to build the bomb shelters- Duh!!!

But then again, maybe this was your plan all along. Continue to antagonize Israel with rocket barrages until they get so pi$$ed off that they drop the hammer on all of Gaza. Then you can whine and cry to all the world and scream about war crimes.

Yes, just like a true Hamas!

But, you probably never thought that the rest of the world would look at you you and say-- why did you start this conflict with Israel? Even your Arab brothers claim that it's your fault!

Now, you better go finish that bomb shelter because the next round is coming shortly, thanks to your brothers who fired those rockets today!

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 8:45 pm ET

Sam,

Since you are a human rights activist. Maybe you can do some good for the Palestinian civilians in Gaza. Work to convince them that they need to put distance bewtween themselves and Hamas and the other terror groups running wild in the Gaza strip causing the conflict with Israel. Your group should be able to explain to the civilians it's for their own safety that they leave the places where Hamas is. The ICRC and UNRWA can provide for them in the unpopulated areas of the strip. This will keep them safe and provide for Hamas wish to have a direct fight with the IDF- this way no civilians are caught in the middle!

Nona   February 1st, 2009 8:48 pm ET

I've never met a "humanitarian" who advocated violence, much less eye-for-an-eye retailation. I don't think there is such a thing.

harvey   February 1st, 2009 8:52 pm ET

Hamas tells us Israelis they are at war with us.
Hamas tells us Israelis that they do not rcognise our right to exist.
Hamas tells us Israelis it has the right to bomb us with impunity.
Hamas tells us Israelis that it is the elected government of Gaza,

Hamas tell us Israelis that it is the official policy of Hamas to use children, women, schools, mosques, hospitals and other civilian institutions and areas as shields to protect its combatants from legitimate Israeli military actions. In addition to the video evidence showing Hamas fighters deliberately placing their rockets adjacent to UN schools, mosques and to residential areas, there are the express statements of officially-elected Hamas leaders both before and during the fighting. Consider the following public statement delivered by a Hamas legislator, transmitted on Hamas television and widely circulated by video. The legislator's name is Fathi Hammad and here is what he said:

[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life.'"

They are allowed to rain rockets on us, while expecting us to run water to them, gas, electricity and all the nece
necessities to sustain life....yet they seek to bring death on us....paradoxical.

And it has nothing to do with occupation...there have been no Israelis or Jews in Gaza since we pulled out in 2005. Truth is Hamas prefer to try to destroy our state rather than build their own.

harvey   February 1st, 2009 9:08 pm ET

Oh and Sam...

Its not us Israelis who don't accept to live in peace with the palestinians. Its Hamas who don't recognise our right to exist. It is them who don't accept to live in peace with us.

Oh and Sam to quote David Harris

An observer of such acute sensitivity as yourself I am sure you did not hold your tongue while Afghan girls attempting to go to school have been doused with acid by those who wish to deny young women access to education, reminiscent of the five years of Taliban rule.

The children of Sderot, the Israeli town near the Gaza border, have been in desperate need of just such a spokesperson as you for the past eight years.

After all, their town has been in the crosshairs of literally thousands of missiles and mortars fired from Gaza. Those Israeli children live with all the signs of trauma, knowing that, with only 15 seconds warning, they could be hit at any time in their schools, their parks, or their beds. Yet,for some reason, those children and their parents have yet to hear you speak out for them. What a pity!

And the children of Iran could use your help as well. According to human rights groups, Iran has no compunction about executing children or those who were children when their crimes were allegedly committed.

I quote David Harris

Oh, and by the way Sam, your compassionate help would also undoubtedly be welcomed by others under the gun in Iran, including women's rights activists, union organizers, student protesters, independent journalists, reformist politicians, and religious minorities. And let's not forget, once again, the children of Israel, who, according to the Iranian president, don't have a right to live. Yeah Mr Human Rights Activist will you demonstrate against he Iranian president after he has breached our human rights (and probably those of our neighbors in Gaza) by nuking us all as he has vowed to do.

I don't mind you standing for human rights, but can you please be even handed rather than hypocritical. And lastly your statement about Israeli generals....proof please....

harvey   February 1st, 2009 9:20 pm ET

Well its late here in Israel and seeing as all the IZRAELI haters have seem to have scuttled off with their tails in between their legs...I shall say good night.

Wish all those of you who genuinely seek peace Shalom ,and may we find it...and to all the haters of Jews and of our homeland Israel, I pray (to him that guardeth Israel that does not slumber or sleep) that your eyes will be opened and you can put aside hate and war and together we can walk forward in peace. Amen.

moses   February 1st, 2009 9:40 pm ET

Israel's policy:

LET ME COLONIZE YOU.
DONT COMPLAIN.
LET ME MAKE YOU STARVE.
DONT REACT.
WHETHER YOU REACT OR NOT, I'LL USE DISPROPORTIONATE FORCE.

THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE.

WANTED

moses   February 1st, 2009 9:42 pm ET

HARVEY
We will surely find peace if israel decides one day to give it to us.

moses   February 1st, 2009 9:47 pm ET

carlos
did israel open the passages for necessities?. this is not a favor; it is a requirement according to the international law as gazza is under occupation.

what do you expect from an occupied population that starves? FLOWERS?

Do you call this justice according to the western system of values?

Isn't this a form of collective punishment?

Answer these questions if you happen to have answers.

moses   February 1st, 2009 9:52 pm ET

CArlos
hamas is a movement of liberation that has objectives. the main objective is to oblige israel to withdraw from the occupied territory.
Whether the movement is islamist or not is not an issue for us, palestinians since we have the same political goal.

The fact that i think like hamas is an honor as we are fighters for freedom, not killers that use internationally banned weapons to consolidate what you have stolen in 1948.

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 10:15 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi

Yes, al Jazeera just reported a little while ago that there are still trucks being allowed through the crossings into Gaza. But they said that they expect them to be clode soon in preparation for Israels' response to today's rocket fire from Gaza into Israel.

Collective punishment, no it's considered precautionary measures to assure there are no banned items being admitted to the terrorists in Gaza! The rules which govern the border crossings were agreed to by the PA and Israel as a part of the Oslo Accord. This covers the crossing from Egypt as well.

If there was a western territory or area from which terrorists were launching rockets and mortars into neighboring towns, I'm certain that the location would be physically isolated in order to prevent it if it was necessary.

But, you always seem to ignore the fact that this situation in Gaza was created by your Egyptian brothers, not the Israelis!!!

And once again, your memory is failing you!!!!! I am not a jew non do I live in Israel--So I have stolen nothing from you.

Mohammed, you and your brothers are just filled with paranoia. You think that the entire rest of the world is out to get you, not matter who they are or where they come from or where they live! It's really sad that all of your Arab brothers have deserted you and left you to fend for youselves for the past 60 years! I'm sure this is the sorce of your paranoia and insecurity.

Have you finished your bomb shelter yet??

Sam   February 1st, 2009 10:24 pm ET

Why zionists always try to divert the discussion to some other Human right abuses somewhere else in the world?

We know there are issues to discuss in other places in the world when it comes to Human Rights abuses.... But this blog is discussing the Israeli abuses in Gaza. Get that through your head guys. If that hurts you inside then thats fine I feel sorry for you but go to another blog where you can discuss Darfur and continue living in denial. None is forcing you to come here to this blog. I am not saying that you are not welcome here... anyone is but please stick to the subject. Everyone on this planet knows that Israel has abused the Palestinians in Gaza over and over in so many different ways.... so lets get on with this discussion.

Sam   February 1st, 2009 10:33 pm ET

Oh and Harvey,

If Israhell cares about the Israeli children then it would give the Palestinian children an equal treatment then you might have peace.

moses   February 1st, 2009 10:34 pm ET

carlos
define "terrorists"; this is a relative term. for me all israelis are terrorists.

moses   February 1st, 2009 10:51 pm ET

carlos
trucks from egypt , not israel.

besieging gazza is collective punishment: kids can't have medicine because israel punishes everybody.right?

AGAIN, rockets are a result of hunger and despair. you besiege and you wait fro us to die in humiliation ; who are you? THE ANCIENT PHARAOS?

EGYPT did not create this situation; gazza has always been inhabited by palestinians. why do we have to say that we are palestinians while we are egyptians. are we that stupid?

WHAT DO YOU WANT THE EGYPTIANS TO DO? THEY SHOULD ELIMINATE THE OLD MAN FIRST AND THIS IS NOT OUR PROBLEM.
you occupy us; we have the right to live and have all the necessities, right?

Whether you are a jew or not is not my problem; i answer you at the ideological level. grow up man.

if you call resistance paranoia, then im honored.

my brothers are with us body and soul. they insult their kings and presidents day and night. did you see the immense demonstrations in fes, morocco, . they want israelis and arab to be sued in the criminal court. i hope i m reporting to you the real image of the arab street.

yeah and the issue of insecurity is important to mention. israel, from its artificial creation, lives in an incomparable security; you know why? BECAUSE YOU HAVE STOLEN STH THAT DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU.

we dont build shelters because we believe in martyrdom and we adamently believe in the just cause that we have. we have only one land and we dont intend to desert it because of a stupid international conspiracy. we are here and we will stay here. die , criminal, out of disgust.

Carlos   February 1st, 2009 11:13 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi

1) Sorry-- but I saw trucks crossing from Israel on Al Jazeera

2) The Egyptians put you in Gaza in 1948. They created the prison where you reside and ruled over it until 1967. But then, why should I expect you to know that?? You've never had any proper education.

3) I've stolen nothing from you. I am not Jewish nor do I live in Israel. This seems to be result of your schizophrenic paranoia. You repeatedly think I am someone who has stolen something from you. I live in the EU-- I have nothing of yours. I've stolen nothing from you or your people

4) If you don't feel the need for shelter or protection and want to be martyrd-– step away from your women, children and elderly when you fight the IDF. I'm certain they will oblige you!

mooshy   February 1st, 2009 11:49 pm ET

carlos is right when he said that israel has the right to defend its occupied land and that hamas fighters should come and fight f16 face to face.

Daniel Rosaupan   February 2nd, 2009 2:41 am ET

I am just reminded of a bible passage that says "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sinned against". President Erdogan's behavior was uncalled for. He should learn to respect the discretion of UN authorities. UN has more reasons to be hysterical than the Turkish President because it was them that who was hit by the Israeli bombs. President Erdogan must have maintained his cool temper for this is how a civilized person must behave. To behave otherwise means you are still uncivilized just like the terrorist Hamas who believes that might is right and deliberately put the lives of their people at risk by placing their military equipment at the urban centers. Dan was ryt. The massacre of the Armenians must first be acknowlege by the Turkish President before condemning the UN and Israel. He who asks apology must learn to apologize.

Daniel Rosaupan   February 2nd, 2009 8:33 am ET

With all due respect to our Muslim brothers, I just don't understand why our Muslim brothers always project themselves as persecuted where the truth of the matter is they are the persecutors. They justify violence by making themselves believe that they are deprive of their rights. They have deceived themselves on their own lies. They seem to forget that the Middle East was a Christian and Jewish continent. It became a Muslim country through the use of sword. And now that they are being hit tremendously by Israel, the Muslim communities all over the world are angry. I appeal to you to revisit the history that we may understand why this is happening at the present. I hope the Muslim world will have the courage to admit the atrocities that they have done both to the Jews and Christians just like what Pope John Paul II did.

Libra   February 2nd, 2009 9:13 am ET

Daniel

Whatever the Muslims, even so just, did 1400 years ago is old news. Let's talk about here and now in this century of intelligence, democracy and technology. Israel is in no way excluded in your view of "the use of the sword". Except now, the Jews are using phosphorous bombs. Since the Muslims, as you acknowledge, spread Islam through the lands with the use of the sword, I think they did a mighty good job at it considering their "tactics", for the Muslims only fought against "fighters", not civilians. And the Muslims fought on land with horses as thier tanks. As for Israel, the world is witness to their unjust masacres of civilians in Palestine in an unjust war. Even with weapons as little as "rocks", the Palestinian cause will conquer their enemies. What the Muslims did to the Jews in early history is a response to the persecutions of the Jews to Muslims. And tactics were in no means in comparisons to how the Jews fight today with Muslims. So, don't complain how Muslims fought, won and spread even in thier low numbers, they always fought "fair", something we certainly can give absolutely no credit to the Jews. Finally, as before, the Muslims are still being persecuted by the Jews, and their land has been invaded by Jews. But this time, the Jews of Israel had to wait until they masacred some Palestinians and threw them out of their homes and imported Jews from the north, because of their low numbers, for their invasion. History repeats itself and since the beginning of history until now, Muslims are being persecuted by the Jews.

Libra   February 2nd, 2009 9:19 am ET

With all due respect............

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 10:07 am ET

do any leader in the world has guts and balls to tell the truth and defend the justice and peace for the region, other then Turks..?

make no mistakes... Turkey is not a "tent state"..

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 10:24 am ET

I see many comments about Turkey and Kurds and Armenians and massacres and crap..

to all wishful thinkers and paid propagandist liers

there has never been any genoside against armenians living in Ottoman empire.. Some of them has been deported to Iraq and Syria that time due to their unfaithful backstabbing alliance with attacking russians.. Ottomans have deported some Armenians to those lands..and it was during WWI. If it were an Armenian genoside, there would not be any armenians left ( even in governmental power ) in the western states of the Ottomans.. But many of them lived and still living with us... as our well respected citizens..

Killed kurds are those seperatist terorists attacking Turkish military..There are millions of Kurds living side by side with Turks in western cities.. they are even presented in the parlament..Many kurds are in governmental power..

Turkey is one of the biggest military power in the region. But we do not shoot innocent people, children or women... we shoot only who shoot first.. and we shoot well..

Turks are and has always been Just and Fair .... and the rule is justice for justice, blood for blood... so simple..

benyemen   February 2nd, 2009 10:31 am ET

QUESTION

WHY HAMAS IS DENIED WEAPONS TO RESIST AND JIHADIS (HOLY WAR FIGHTERS) TO FIGHT WITH THEM TO END THE OCCUPATION BY ALL ARAB AND MUSLIM COUNTRIES.

OUR MUSLIM RELIGION STATES THAT IF A (SHIBR) I.E A SPACE BETWEEN YOUR BIG FINGER AND THIRD (MIDDLE) FINGER IS OCCUPIED (JIHAD) HOLY WAR IS (WAJEB) A MUST TO ALL MUSLIMS TO LIBERATE IT.

benyemen   February 2nd, 2009 10:39 am ET

QUESTION

DO WE HAVE TO WAIT FOR OUR ARAB AND MUSLIM COUNTRIES LEADERS TO TAKE ACTION?

IF NOT.

CAN MUSLIMS TAKE ACTIONS ON THEIR OWN? AND START MARCHING TOWARDS ISRAEL WITH WHAT THEY POSSES OF PERSONAL ARMS.

WILL ISRAEL SHELL MILLIONS OF MARCHERS?

OR

WILL ISRAEL GIVE UP AND CONSIDER PEACE?

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 10:41 am ET

this unjust war in ME is NOT a religious one...

it is not between jews and muslims...or muslims and christians...

it is between Israel government and Arabs..

let us do not defocus the facts...

it is all about aggression and occupation of Israeli government..

benyemen   February 2nd, 2009 10:45 am ET

JUST WONDERING IS THIS WORLD RUNNING AS IT WAS MEANT TO

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 10:54 am ET

there is no arab unity... there are even no arab countries...

there are well controlled arabic tribal states... whose governments are paid and controlled by US, UK and Israel..directly or indirectly...

the voice of the arab people is not heard... even their paid and controlled governments do not let arab people speak loud..

There is no democracy in the region... US, UK and Israel do not want any democracy to prevail in Arab nations... because the democracy is the voice of people ( vox populi ).. if western countries want democracy in the region, they should respect the free vote and voice of the people of gaza who voted for Hamas as governing rule ( not military power )... they do not want democracy in the region that is why they did not gave any chance to Hamas to act in politics.. Israel blocaded gaza for years.. letting people suffocate... US and EU put Hamas in Terror lists... how respectful to the voice of the people...

if you put even a simple cat on the corner, no way to escape, it becomes a lion to survive... hamas rockets are the cause of Israels aggression and blockade..

Turkey is the only true democracy in the region... that is why we have guts and balls to get on the stage of davos and tell the world the slamming truth..

we do not spare our voice and power when it comes to justice and humanity...

What is sad is the suppressed voice of arab people... we are feeling sorry for them... they are doomed to loose...

their true survival is to rise up... and ask for democracy...

benyemen   February 2nd, 2009 10:55 am ET

IT IS A MUSLIM LAND SO MUSLIM DOCTRINE APPLIES TO ALL FOLLOWERS OF ISLAM.

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 11:03 am ET

Palestinians !... annex ( back ) to Turks.. and live in peace and welfare forever... be our citizens... let us join again... and see how we can protect you and your rights...

benyemen   February 2nd, 2009 11:05 am ET

SOMEONE SAID (I THINK BERNSHAW) : EITHER THE HISTORY BOOKS LIE ABOUT ARABS, OR THE PRESENT ARABS ARE NOT ARABS).

I TEND TO GO WITH HIS SECOND PHRASE.

FORGET ARABS IF THEY HAVE REACHED SUCH A HUMILIATING STAGE.

ISLAM CAME FOR ALL PEOPLE NOT ARABS ONLY. AND LET STAND UP AS MUSLIMS AS OUR GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHERS DID, FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD ARABS, TURKS, PERSIANS, INDIANS, CHINESE, MOGULS, AFRICANS, EUROPEANS, ASIANS, AMERICANS ETC.....

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 11:05 am ET

what is Muslim Land? which one you mean.?

miriam   February 2nd, 2009 11:12 am ET

Benyemen,

I assume Muslim land includes all countries from Spain to India. You're just obsessed with Israel since it is Jewish.

After all, these countries all existed and had populations before the birth of Islam when there were no Muslim lands but they had been Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Zoroastrian etc.

It's the preoccupation.

benyemen   February 2nd, 2009 11:14 am ET

IF TURKS CAN RETAIN ISLAM AND MUSLIMS TO THEIR POST THE PROPHET TIMES, ALL MUSLIMS SHOULD BE GRATEFUL AND HAND OVER THE RUNNING OF THEIR COUNTRIES TO THE MOST SCHOLARS OF THEM OR OTHERS FOR THIS MATTER.

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 11:19 am ET

I am sure the obsession is within Jewish people... they seem to overreact when it comes to their right of existence.. is there any hidden complex of inferiority amongst them? why do they always state that they existed there for thousends of years? this does not give them to steal land of other people by force... or does it?

it is today we live in... and todays rules rule..

an occupation is an occupation.. pre- or post- makes no difference..

Sam   February 2nd, 2009 11:21 am ET

The Turk,

I agree with you... I admire your President and your Prime Minister... :)

benyemen   February 2nd, 2009 11:27 am ET

JEWS HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE AND EXIST WHEREVER THEY WISH INCLUDING IN ALL THE MIDDLE EAST COUNTRIES, AS THEY WERE BEFORE EVEN ISLAM CAME, AND THEY HAVE RIGHT TO PURCHASE LAND AND BUILD WHATEVER THEY WISH UPON THEM AS PER THE RULE OF ANY LAND THEY LIVE ON.

SORRY I HAVE TO GO, WILL BE BACK TO CHECK YOUR REPLIES.

Sam   February 2nd, 2009 11:28 am ET

The Turk,

"this unjust war in ME is NOT a religious one…

it is not between jews and muslims…or muslims and christians…

it is between Israel government and Arabs.. "

Its really between Israel (the occupier) and Palestinians Muslims and Christians (the occupied) The Arabs and Muslims are coming to the aid of their brothers and sisters Palestinians Muslims and Christians against the occupiers.

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 11:30 am ET

there are many turks who are not fan of our PM Erdogan...for his local politics...

but now many ( me too ) respect his just and fair act on the stage... to spell out loud the unfair and unjust propaganda of Israel..

we have never been a sheep who obeys the shepperd..we have always been the lone wolf..

Sos   February 2nd, 2009 11:31 am ET

benyemen,

There are Jews in the ME, the richest man on Bahrain is a jew and i think the Bahraini ambassador to the US is a jew lady

Sam   February 2nd, 2009 11:54 am ET

Sos,

There are jews all over the middle east who are very wealthy as well as some who are not as wealthy.... they lives in peace with the rest of the muslim and christian populations. Only after Israel was established they started lobbying the Arab countries to allow their Jews to migrate to Israel and after they were allowed to do so then the Israel started crying wolf again and lied stating that the Jews were prosecuted and now they call them refugees and want compensation.

What an irony.... LOL

Kelly   February 2nd, 2009 12:05 pm ET

Sam. It is well documented that Jews are persecuted thru out the arab world and in muslim country and have been for centuries. it's in UN documents, the goverment records of arab countries, news articles from old arab papers etc. just because your government and your mullah and your madrassa deny it and teach you otherwise doesn't mean it it's not true. it just means you've been taught lies and your'e not smart enough to look into the truth.

read something.

Sam   February 2nd, 2009 12:06 pm ET

The murderers are not just killing the innocent civilian Palestinians but killing the animals, the trees and whatever they can get their hand on.... it only shows how ruthless they are and full of hate to the Palestinians.

Sam   February 2nd, 2009 12:10 pm ET

Kelly,

There are madrassa's in my country the US?...

Wow I did not know that... I am glad you brought it to my attention.

When the Jews were prosecuted in Germany they fled to Muslim countries to seek refuge becuase they know that under Muslim rule got their Golden Age. This what history well documented... so I do not know what documents you are referring to.

Sam   February 2nd, 2009 12:11 pm ET

Kelly,

You do not have madrassas in Israel?

Kelly   February 2nd, 2009 12:21 pm ET

Sam, yes, there are madrassas in the US. As an American, this is news to you?

I assumed you got your information your madrassa, but apparently it came from your Klavern.

I don't live in Israel, but if you have questions about it, how bout taking my earlier advice.? Read something.

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 12:26 pm ET

Sam.

Please see below...I have listed the sources for you. You just make wild comments with abseloutely no proofs....

FACT
On the eve of Israel’s disengagementfrom the Gaza Stripin August 2005, Middle East envoy James Wolfensohn brokered a deal to purchase greenhousesbuilt by Jewish settlers in the hope of providing employment and export income to the Palestinian people and boost the fledgling economy. Wolfensohn and a number of other donors, including several American Jews, bought the greenhouses, which averaged more than $75 million in total crop output annually, and gave them to the Palestinian Authority.155

. Wolfensohn and a number of other donors, including several American Jews, bought the greenhouses, which averaged more than $75 million in total crop output annually, and gave them to the Palestinian Authority.155

Almost immediately after Israel’s withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, many greenhouses were ransacked and looted. In September 2005, looters in Neve Dekalim, the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza, walked away with irrigation hoses, water pumps, and plastic sheeting, often while Palestinian policemen watched.156

Despite pleas from the Palestinian Prime Minister to leave the structures intact, the security situation around the greenhouses worsened. In 2006, roving gunmen destroyed greenhouses in the former settlement of Morag, and dozens of armed militiamen ransacked more than 50 acres of greenhouse space in the former settlement of Gush Katif.157 Witnesses said the militants used bulldozers to demolish the buildings’ frames, and then destroyed or stole whatever equipment they could find inside, including irrigation computers.158

The Palestinian Company for Economic Development, the organization in charge of running the greenhouses, complained that hundreds of greenhouses and other agricultural installations were destroyed. In an appeal to the Palestinian Authority leadership, the company said, “These greenhouses and other installations and projects provide a source of income for over 4,500 families. We are very disturbed by the recurring attacks and thefts. Such actions jeopardize the largest agricultural project carried by the Palestinian Authority after the Israeli withdrawal.”159

In addition to rendering the greenhouses useless for their intended purpose of building up the PA economy, Hamas has also established terrorist training centers on some of the lands of the evacuated settlements. Abu Abdullah, a senior member of Hamas’ military wing, said the two former settlements of Eli Sinai and Dagit are now advanced training zones.160

Nearly 70% of the greenhouses have been completely destroyed, most recently by Palestinians who dismantled some of the remaining greenhouses to sell to Egyptians after the Gaza-Egypt border was breached in January 2008.161 The treatment of the greenhouses is an example of how, contrary to Palestinian propaganda blaming Israel, the economic troubles in the Gaza Strip are largely self-inflicted.

Notes

155Jonathan Pearlman, “Fruitless Enterprise,” The Jerusalem Report, (August 7, 2006).
156Lara Sukhtian, “Palestinians loot greenhouses; Pumps, hoses taken; Abbas appeals for order,” The Boston Globe, (September 14, 2005).
157Khaled Abu Toameh, “Gaza: Gunmen raze Morag hothouses,” Jerusalem Post, (May 14, 2006).
158Arnon Regular, “Palestinian militants ransack former Gush Katif greenhouses,” Ha’aretz, (October 2, 2006).
159Khaled Abu Toameh, “Gaza: Gunmen raze Morag hothouses,” Jerusalem Post, (May 14, 2006).
160Aaron Klein, “Ex-Jewish cities now for Hamas terror training,” World Net Daily, (March 20, 2007).
161Will Rasmussen, “Gaza's greenhouses become hot property in Egypt,” Reuters, (January 31, 2008).

Source: Myths & Facts Online - A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict by Mitchell G. Bard.

By the way. Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with more trees than in the previous century.

Kelly   February 2nd, 2009 12:27 pm ET

Yes Sam, I know what a 4.0 GPA is.

It means you did the work somebody told you to do perfectly.

Congratulations.

Sam   February 2nd, 2009 12:34 pm ET

Thank you Kelly.... Now its your turn to go and do that.

Later

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 12:39 pm ET

Sam,

You refer to Jews fleeing the "Prosecution", I think you mean "Persecution" of the Nazis to Muslim countries and that this fact is well documented. Please provide your documentation...
You seem awfully good at the wild sweeping statements and awfully bad at providing proof to substantiate them....unless of course you are making up your facts as you go along to suit your arguments....

Kelly   February 2nd, 2009 12:48 pm ET

I'll pass Sam. I think for myself. Any sheep can follow orders.

Mensa agrees. That's why it admitted me based on critical thinking skills and not just on test scores.

Harvey, good point about "persecution" versus "prosecution." So much for the "education" it takes to earn a 4.0 GPA.

Kelly   February 2nd, 2009 12:52 pm ET

Oh yeah, I almost forgot ...

I had 4.0 GPAs in high school, college and grad school.

BFD.

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 12:53 pm ET

Sam,

Please also see below on Fathi Hamad Hamas official...so much for not using women, children and elders to hide behind.

Hamas tell us Israelis that it is the official policy of Hamas to use children, women, schools, mosques, hospitals and other civilian institutions and areas as shields to protect its combatants from legitimate Israeli military actions. In addition to the video evidence showing Hamas fighters deliberately placing their rockets adjacent to UN schools, mosques and to residential areas, there are the express statements of officially-elected Hamas leaders both before and during the fighting. Consider the following public statement delivered by a Hamas legislator, transmitted on Hamas television and widely circulated by video. The legislator’s name is Fathi Hammad and here is what he said:

[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: ‘We desire death like you desire life.’”

Sos   February 2nd, 2009 1:50 pm ET

Kelly,

In iraq there are some properties still kept and houses too,- i seen some myself – you maybe heard of the synagogue still in Baghdad, in fact many Iraqis Jews wanted to go back to Iraq and many took pictures with them back to Israel.

Its not hard to know by google that some of the most famous actress in Egypt is a jew , or you better go you utube you will find some.

I am sorry but I dont believe in the jew been persecuted and oppressed in the middle east .

I think jews are smart wherever they go but again the the late pop talked very highly of the harmony that exist in the Levant and some part of the ME among followers .

If you visit Dubai you will not believe how nice the Arabs are and how hospitable they are !!

Sos   February 2nd, 2009 2:01 pm ET

Sam,

Why the Jews didn't stay in spain but they choose to flee with the Muslims and still live in Morocco?

Can anybody answer me !

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 2:55 pm ET

SOS

1492 Jews expelled from Spain after undergoing persecution from inquisition. The Jews did not choose to leave but were forcibly expelled.

I am sure the Arabs in Dubai are lovely people. Sadly they won't let me in to sample their hospitality as I have an Israeli passport. Apparently you can get in if your jewish, but only on a clean passport from a country other than Israel with no stamps from Israel.

Not too rosy and happy as you make out

Please see below on Jewish persecution in Iraq.

State sanctioned persecution of jews in IRAQFrom Research conducted at the UNHCR Archives in Geneva) arab iraq In refugees Israel jews persecution.

Please see below on Jewish persecution in Morroco

Jews Kicked out of Arab Land Part 2THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN MOROCCO PRIOR TO 1948 ... Indeed the greatest persecution by the Arabs towards the Jews was in Fez, Morocco, nothing was worse ...
http://www.hsje.org/Jews%20Kicked%20out%20of%20Arab%20Lands... – 25k – Cached – Similar pages
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2962515/State-sanctioned-persecution-of-jews-in-IRAQ – 89k -

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 3:05 pm ET

Libra

Ok-- here and now!!!!

Why do the Muslims choose to attack the women and childrenand elderly civilian population of Israel???

You claim the Muslims always fought "fair"!!! What is fair??? Give me a break, in an armed conflict the objective is to prevail. You use the means which is necessary. How dare you complain because the Israelis have more capabilities. If your Muslim brothers actually supprted you in your efforts, you would have more than "rocks" at your disposal! But no, your Arab brothers have all deserted you and your cause, I'm sure for good reason.

It's time to stop the whining and crying because of the decisions made by the UN and Great Britain, the authortitatve governing power as a result of WWII.

If you feel their decision was unjust-- Take it up with them!!

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 3:18 pm ET

The Turk

Just because there are still Armenians in existence does not mean that genoicide did not occur!!!

There are still Jews, but genocide did occur in WWII !!!

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 3:34 pm ET

benyemen

Why is Hamas denied weapons???---

They're not!!! They make their own and they get supplied from Iran!!!

Is that not good enought??? Then maybe they should pick better friends!

Do you need to wait on the Arab countries to take action??

Of course not!!! Isn't this what Hamas is doing??? March on!!! Feel free to take action!!! If you wait on the Arab countries to assist you-- it will never happen!

I'm sure the Israelis will simply comply to your wishes.

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 3:45 pm ET

Shimon Peres far from being a war criminal is a championof peace..He is an idealist…please read what he stands for....

The Peres Center for Peace http://www.peres-center.org

Our mission is to build an infrastructure of peace and reconciliation by and for the people of the Middle East that promotes socio-economic development, while advancing cooperation and mutual understanding.

The Peres Center for Peace is an independent, non-profit, non-partisan, non-governmental organization founded in 1996 by President of Israel and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Mr. Shimon Peres, with the aim of furthering his vision in which people of the Middle East region work together to build peace through socio-economic cooperation and development, and people-to-people interaction. The first Director General of the Peres Center was Ambassador Uri Savir, who, together with Shimon Peres, established the organization and currently serves as President.
Through extensive communication and interaction with Arab partners, the Peres Center has come to understand that sustainable peace and stability can only be developed in the Middle East region through the elevation of social and economic capacities. Accordingly, the peacebuilding activities of the Peres Center focus on common Arab and Israeli social, economic, developmental, cultural and educational interests, with an emphasis on nurturing Palestinian-Israeli relations. The Peres Center designs and facilitates tangible peacebuilding projects that address these interests, utilizing cross-border, regional and international partnerships to bring these initiatives to fruition.

The Peres Center’s peacebuilding activities are based on five main pillars:

The first pillar is People-to-People Dialogue and Interaction. The cumbersome machinery of governments together with their shifting policies cannot always fulfill peacebuilding aspirations, and therefore, civil society cooperation is the foundation upon which future peace must be established. The Peres Center has launched a wide array of different programs which engage civil society leaders through common platforms, empowering them to serve as “agents of change” in their respective communities. In this vein, the Peres Center has initiated various activities in the fields of Education, Academia, Politics, Healthcare, Community Leadership, Sport and Professional Exchange.

The second pillar is Capacity-Building through Cooperation. The Peres Center undertakes a concerted effort to increase the capacities of various sectors in the Palestinian Authority, Jordan and Egypt through interaction with their Israeli counterparts, in the belief that it is in Israel’s interest to be surrounded by neighbors with strong and viable economies and stable societies. Such activities support these sectors en-route to expanding and prospering, whilst simultaneously creating opportunities for cross-border relations and partnerships. In this vein, the Peres Center has initiated numerous projects in the fields of Agriculture, Medicine and Healthcare, and Information Technology.

The third pillar is Nurturing a Culture of Peace in the Region’s Youth. Recognizing that today’s youth are tomorrow’s leaders, and that the “next” generation must embrace peace as a central objective, the Peres Center has initiated challenging and creative programs designed to change mindsets and alter the negative stereotypes that have evolved, in fields such as Sport, Education and Culture, and Information Technology.

The fourth pillar is Business and Economic Cooperation. As the Palestinian and Israeli private sectors are intertwined and interdependent, strong and viable economies serve to benefit both sides, and contribute to thriving societies and systems. The Peres Center designs and implements joint programs and activities that facilitate cross-border partnerships and contribute to the development of each independent economy, on both a micro and macro level. In this vein, the Peres Center has initiated various projects in the field of Business & Economics.

The fifth pillar is Humanitarian Responses. In light of the dire situation that exists in certain areas of the Palestinian Authority as a result of the lack of infrastructural development and continuing conflict, the Peres Center cooperates with Palestinian partners to provide real-time responses to humanitarian crises, initiating a major project in the field of Medicine and Healthcare, that aims to reduce morbidity and alleviate the mortality rate among Palestinian babies and children.
The Peres Center is able to implement its peacebuilding activities through contributions from governments, corporations, foundations, organizations and private individuals

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 3:49 pm ET

The Turk February 2nd, 2009 1054 GMT

there is no arab unity… there are even no arab countries…

there are well controlled arabic tribal states… whose governments are paid and controlled by US, UK and Israel..directly or indirectly…

*************************************************

Oh please!!!!!

Why is it always someone elses' fault!!!

OH***** "there's no Arab unity becaue of the US and UK and Israel"******* oh oh oh - whine and cry!!!!!

Get over it! Are the Arabs not capable of making their own decisions? Are the Arabs not capable of choosing their own friends??

If you don't approve of the policies of the Arabs-– change it-- but quit whining about it!

Isn't it about time you accept responsibilty for the present state of the Arab world instead of trying to blame the rest of the world for all of your misfortunes and stay of disarray??

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 4:00 pm ET

This is the link to the Davos debate. I am sure it has been posted anyways....but it is interesting to note that the rules of the debate were set out and agreed to.

Peres was fantastic......

This made interesting viewing.

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 4:13 pm ET

carlos...

there has not been a genoside... no one on earth to prove it..

it is all propogandist lies.

and carlos... please read a least bit of history... ok?

whining and crying does not happen here.. these are the facts...

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 4:13 pm ET

Kelly,

2 days ago Sam was claiming to a Peace Activist-- then a little later he started spewing a rant of hatred and destruction against the children and civilians of Israel. If you look back up through the posts, i'm sure you'll find it. He's a typical radical who assumes that anyone who shows support of Israel is an Israeli. They just can't seem to grasp the fact that there are people throughout the world who support the Israelis. They simply don't understand how someone could possibly have a perspective in life that is different from theirs!

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 4:14 pm ET

harvey ? are you Peres' public affairs officer? are you well paid?

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 4:24 pm ET

No Turk,

I work as a volunteer. See below. If you visit the Peres web site you will have a better understanding of what we do...

This was my previous answer to one of your pals re what I do. Its not paid work...but we believe in what we do.

We love soccer. We try to encourage Palestinian kids and Israeli kids to play soccer together. We believe that if the kids see eachother as people as opposed to stereotypes we can start to build peace from relationships. We mix the teams up. After about half an hour the kids have forgotten about Arab and Jew…
Small beginnings. We managed to send some kids to a summer peace camp in the USA a few years ago. That was a great experience.
Thats what we need to do. Instead of looking for differences and hatred look for commonality and things we share.
Its difficult and unfortunately the extremists on both sides hijack the agenda. But both sides, mine and the Palestinian side need to come to the realisation that both of us are wrong AND both of us are right. Both sides have made terrible mistakes…but we must find a way forward together and sadly it is not simple….but if there is a will and a willing partner we can do it.

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 4:28 pm ET

1- Iran sends Machine Guns for Hamas == USA sends Laser guided missiles for Israel...
2- Hamas makes homemade rockets == Israel buys White Phosporus bombs
3- Hamas sends rockets to Israel == Israel sends Bombs to Gaza schools
4- Hamas is backed by Gazan people == Israel is backed by US and EU
5- Hamas is voted by People == Israel jails them
6- Hamas == Israel

there is no right / wrong in this equation... if hamas is terorist so is Israel, if Israel is legit so is Hamas...

they have equal rights to exist... if one is to wiped out so is the other..

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 4:30 pm ET

I see that Hamas has sent missiles into Israel, again. The cease-fire won't last. One creates war, Hamas. One wants it to end.

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 4:32 pm ET

no harvey, for me there is no difference between Peres and Halid Meshal..... they represent their peoples rights to exist.. and both are using weapons... they are equal

Nona   February 2nd, 2009 4:33 pm ET

Wow, SOS. One synagogue in Baghdad is all ya got?

Jews prospered for 1200 years in Iraq before the Muslim conquest in 634 AD. In the 9th Century AD, Iraqi Jews were forced to wear yellow patches (as did several Arab countries under their dhimma laws - an idea later adopted by the Nazis). They were also subjected to heavy special taxes and residency restrictions. In 1333, all the synogogues of Baghdad were destroyed. In 1776, there was a massacre of Jews in Basra.

In 1908, H.E. Wilkie Young, the British vice consul in Mosul, wrote that the "attitude of the Iraqi Moslems toward the Christians and Jews is that of master towards slaves whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place."

In 1933, Assyrians were massacred in Iraq and shortly afterward, mobs of Iraqis threw nitric acid on Jews in the street and bombed synogogues. These events were widely reported in many newspapers throughout the world, including the New York Times.

In 1941, there was a massacre of Iraqi Jews with police openly participating in the attack. Approximately 600 Iraqi Jews were murdered. Among the sources verifying and recording these attacks were Abd al-Razzaq al-Hasani, who wrote "History of the Ministries of Iraq;" Abdullah al-Qassab, an Iraqi government official at the time; and Ali Khalid al-Hijazi, who was the Baghdad Chief of Policy.

Arab documents chronicle a systematic attempt by the Iraqi government to destroy the Iraqi Jewish community from WWII on. When Iraq joined the Arab war against Israel's independence, Iraqi Jews – who previously were allowed some degree of travel, with restrictions – were forbidden to travel at all. In 1950, Iraq enacted a law that allowed Jews to leave Iraq for good, but they had to leave all their assets and possessions behind and surrender their Iraqi citizenship. Source: Iraqi Official Gazette No. 2938, March 10, 1951.

Around that same time, Zionism became a capital crime. Jews were publicly hanged in the center of Baghdad, and Jews were stripped of their money and assets through bribes, extortion and confiscation whether they were Zionists or not.

There were more than 130,000 Jews in Iraq in 1947; about 100,000 of them lived in or near Baghdad. And in 2009, you're seriously pointing to Baghdad's ONE synogogue as evidence of how great Iraq treats its Jews.

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 4:39 pm ET

Thanks Turk....

The only sentiment I concur with is that we both agree that the Palestinian kids and the Israeli kids have equal rights to exist. Indeed that is a fundamental pillar of the Peres foundation. Just we believe in promoting life for everyone not blowing each other up.

I think I'll stick to my volunteer work getting kids to play soccer and to try to promote better understanding and to build a better future...

Your way and your understanding just perpetuates hatred and violence. But then you don't live here. So easy for you to scream for more blood from the sidelines. Its not your children's lives that are at stake.

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 4:40 pm ET

Nona... interesting view...

""It is one of the many paradoxes of the Islamic Republic of Iran that this most virulent anti-Israeli country supports by far the largest Jewish population of any Muslim country.

While Jewish communities in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Morocco and Algeria have all but vanished, Iran is home to 25,000 – some here say 35,000 – Jews. The Jewish population is less than half the number that lived here before the Islamic revolution of 1979. But the Jews have tried to compensate for their diminishing numbers by adopting a new religious fervor.

"The funny thing is that before the Islamic revolution, you would see maybe 20 old men in the synagogue," whispers Nahit Eliyason, 48, as she climbs over four other women to find one of the few vacant seats. "Now the place is full. You can barely find a seat." Parvis Yashaya, a film producer who heads Tehran's Jewish community, adds: "We are smaller, but we are stronger in some ways."

Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues, many of them with Hebrew schools. It has two kosher restaurants, and a Jewish hospital, an old-age home and a cemetery. There is a Jewish representative in the Iranian parliament. There is a Jewish library with 20,000 titles, its reading room decorated with a photograph of the Ayatollah Khomeini.

Khomeini protection

Iran's Jewish community is confronted by contradictions. Many of the prayers uttered in synagogue, for instance, refer to the desire to see Jerusalem again. Yet there is no postal service or telephone contact with Israel, and any Iranian who dares travel to Israel faces imprisonment and passport confiscation. "We are Jews, not Zionists. We are a religious community, not a political one," Yashaya said.

Before the revolution, Jews were well-represented among Iran's business elite, holding key posts in the oil industry, banking and law, as well as in the traditional bazaar. The wave of anti-Israeli sentiment that swept Iran during the revolution, as well as large-scale confiscations of private wealth, sent thousands of the more affluent Jews fleeing to the United States or Israel. Those remaining lived in fear of pogroms, or massacres.

But Khomeini met with the Jewish community upon his return from exile in Paris and issued a "fatwa" decreeing that the Jews were to be protected. Similar edicts also protect Iran's tiny Christian minority.

Just as it radically transformed Muslim society, the revolution changed the Jews. Families that had been secular in the 1970s started keeping kosher and strictly observing rules against driving on Shabbat. They stopped going to restaurants, cafes and cinemas – many such establishments were closed down – and the synagogue perforce became the focal point of their social lives. ""

quoted in : http://www.sephardicstudies.org/iran.html

there are many thousends in Turkey too mostly rich and powerful community...

I think... the only Jews in danger are in Israel... I ask you why?

is it because they are jews? or is it because their government is Israel.?

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 4:45 pm ET

harvey..

where do you read hatred and blood seek in my postings?

is it because I backed up Gazan people ?
do you mean If someone is supporting Gazans and their choice of government ( hamas ) is seeking blood and hatred.?

how blindfolded view you have...

All I say is that if Israeli kids should have right to live so as the Gazan kids...

better ask your government for more democracy so that you may have really peace seeking officials other then formet terorists or mossad agents or less ex-military ministers...

your government should have less military people for peace seeking... otherwise they keep seeking bloodshed..

The Turk   February 2nd, 2009 4:54 pm ET

real solution to peace in the regions is more democracy...

democracy for Israel, democracy for Palestine...

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 4:59 pm ET

This is a blog from a girl who now lives in Israel. She wanted to go back to Turkey to get married in the synagogue there...

She refers to the sign that you bought everybodys attention to on this blog.

Describing a "climate of fear" in her former hometown, the Turkish immigrant said she will most likely cancel her wedding plans. Frankly, I'm scared to have my wedding there now," she said.
"On the one hand, yeah, it's my dream, but on the other hand, the situation there has simply gotten out of control

"Every day it gets worse," Sheila continued. "My parents told me that a shopkeeper near one of the Jewish neighborhoods, where my grandparents live, put a sign in the window of his store that said, 'No Jews allowed, but dogs are welcome.'

"Even when my parents go to buy a phone card to call me, they get harassed by the shopkeepers the minute they say they're trying to make a call to Israel."

Seems like Turkey ain't too safe a place to be a Jew right now....

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 5:01 pm ET

The Turk

You make me laugh!!!!!

I know plenty of history, I simply don't subscribe to your version!! I know, that's difficult for you to understand. How can anyone possibly a different view than yours, right??? Sorry, but most everyone does!

Nona   February 2nd, 2009 5:19 pm ET

Interesting article, Turk. I'm glad you posted it. I haven't seen it before, and I appreciate your providing the source.

Iran and Turkey indeed are historically more tolerant of Jews.

It's been pointed out on this blog repeatedly that all Palestinians are not Hamas; I think it's also been woefully underacknowledged here that all Jews are not Zionists, despite the active participation of a number of non-Zionist Jews here, such as Rod and American Jew. So I have a couple of comments on the following statements you make:

1. "I think… the only Jews in danger are in Israel… I ask you why?"

This week a synogogue in Venezuala (of all places!) was attacked. And you'll remember that one in Turkey was bombed in 2003. A Jewish organization was targeted in the Mumbai seige; a Jewish community center was attacked in Seattle in 2006. And as the article you posted points out, "the Jewish communities in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Morocco and Algeria have all but vanished." Well, why did they vanish? Because they were treated so well? So I don't really understand how you can claim only Jews in Israel are in danger. Clearly, that's not the case.

2. "is it because they are jews? or is it because their government is Israel.?

Are you seriously suggesting that Israel is the government of all Jews? It's really a silly statement. All Jews are not Zionists, so how would the "government" of all Jews be Israel? Is Mecca the government of all Muslims?

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 5:19 pm ET

The Turk January 16th, 2009 2324 GMT

Couple of days ago, many Turkish Hotels, Restorants and other businesses displayed signs expressing a very common reaction of a normal human being ;

” Dogs and Israelis may NOT enter”

The Turkish prime minister Erdogan warned them that this is a wrong doing…

after governments warning about this mistake, the businesses changed their signs ;

“Even Dogs may enter, Israelis NOT”

you know, even animals have rights…

The Turk January 16th, 2009 2329 GMT

dan no-man,

we have at least more dogs that 350000, and we can pay for them to enjoy our hotels then Israelis,

no worries,

This is what you sid back on Jan 16th. Seems to be full of hatred towards the (what a surprise) Jews.

Of course Turk you believe in promoting peace and love not hate.

Are you teaching your kids that jews are no better than dogs? How liberal. Who does that remind me of. Oh yes the Nazis. But according to the Turk school of propoganda the Holocaust never happened. Us Jews just had difficulties remembering our telephone numbers and had to get them tatooed on our arms, right? Do you also believe that Tinkerbell is real? And Elvis and Princess Diana were seen in Walmart a week ago buying some Pringles?

I stick to my soccer for peace.....you stick to your holocaust denial and hatred...I'll stick to my getting kids (both Arab and Jew) to play together.

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 5:35 pm ET

The Turk February 2nd, 2009 1628 GMT

there is no right / wrong in this equation… if hamas is terorist so is Israel, if Israel is legit so is Hamas…

they have equal rights to exist… if one is to wiped out so is the other..

*************************************************

Turk,

Please don't assume all things are equal in the world, they are not.

Just because the world views Hamas as a terrorist organization this in no way means the world views Israel as the same. They simply don't!

Just because the State of Israel was created by the UN does not mean that Hamas is considered equal-- they're not!

Terrorist organizations, such as Hamas do not have the right to exist. Look at Jordan and Egypt- Hamas has no right to exist in either country!

Just because Israel has chosen freinds and allies that support them in a fashion that provides for their security, you shouldn't whine and cry because Hamas has been shunned by their Arab brothers. This is not the fault of Israel. It is the fault of Hamas and their policies and actions.

Just because Hamas is elected by the people of Palestine, this does not exempt them from being criminals and terrorists that should be imprisoned. Election does not provide for absolvement of crimes!

Sorry about your luck-- until the Palestinians can come together and agree to speak with one voice, renounce violence and recognize Israels' right to exist and honor all previous agreements between Israel and the PA-- they're simply stuck in a quagmire of destruction-- by their own choice!!!

The Palestinian people have the power and the authority to obtain a peaceful solution. They simply need to choose to do so!

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 5:49 pm ET

The Turk February 2nd, 2009 1632 GMT

no harvey, for me there is no difference between Peres and Halid Meshal….. they represent their peoples rights to exist.. and both are using weapons… they are equal
**********************************************************

Turk--Equal- except for the fact the Khaled Meshaal has been expelled from Jordan, his followers banned from existance in Egypt and prohibited from access to the Palestinian territories because he preaches death, destruction and terroism aganist Israel.

So, I hardly can view him as being an equal to Peres, and neither does the rest of the world.

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 5:49 pm ET

Turk??????

You seem to have done an Erdogan on us and scuttled away with your tail in between your legs....?????He lost the debate too.

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 5:56 pm ET

Hi Nona,

Are you there???

Am being sent out to States in March to visit a camp where we may be able to send some of our kids. Camp in the South.....

CS   February 2nd, 2009 6:05 pm ET

Harvey. This is what I man about how people should not beleive everything they read/see/hear. Why, if these people feared for their lives, would they tell people that they were trying to call Israel? Is telling your buisiness a prerequisite for buying a phone card? I mean if I were living in a hostile enviornment, I would communicate with "hostile" people as little as possible, If I was outnumbered.

benyemen   February 2nd, 2009 6:06 pm ET

CARLOS WROTE:

February 2nd, 2009 1534 GMT

benyemen

Why is Hamas denied weapons???———

They’re not!!! They make their own and they get supplied from Iran!!!

Is that not good enought??? Then maybe they should pick better friends!

Do you need to wait on the Arab countries to take action??

Of course not!!! Isn’t this what Hamas is doing??? March on!!! Feel free to take action!!! If you wait on the Arab countries to assist you—- it will never happen!

I’m sure the Israelis will simply comply to your wishes.

FROM YOUR ANSWERS I KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

1) ALMOST EVERYONE IS CONTROLLING HAMAS NOT TO HAVE FOOD, MEDICINE ALBEIT WEAPONS – SO YOU LIE.
2) IF IRAN CAN SUPPLY THEM WEAPONS, THERE WOULDN'T BE ISRAEL TODAY, LIGHT WEAPONS THEY GET FROM ISRAEL SOLDIERS. ANOTHER LIE.
3)THEY MAKE THEIR OWN – ITS TRUE BUT NOT ENOUGH AND POWERFUL TO FACE ISRAEL ARMY WITH.
4)BETTER FRIENDS ARE THEIR MUSLIM BRETHREN ALL OVER THE WORLD YES, THEY SHOULD CALL FOR JIHAD (HOLY WAR)
5)YES YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT ARAB GOVERNMENTS MIGHT NOT LIFT A FINGER BUT OUR HOPE IS ON ARAB ORDINARY MUSLIMS.
6) THEN WE WILL NOT NEED IT TO COMPLY, BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NO ISRAHELL.

THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT CARLOS

CS   February 2nd, 2009 6:08 pm ET

I beleive that people/countries around the world are starting to close doors to Israel, and frown upon their behavior lately. And rightfully so. It is obvious that the Israeli leadership is willing to show no respect to leaders of other nations in the region. They act as if they're superior, and can do and say what they want, when they want. They may be in for a rude awakening if they keep it up.

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 6:15 pm ET

CS

Hi. Hope you are ok.

It was the turk who brought our attention originally to the dogs welcome sign, Israelis not" in Turkey. That story has since been authenticated. You can read the blog I refer to for yourself if you want. Go to http://www.jpost.com

And maybe I am naive but I do believe it...maybe these people were just going about their ordinary lives. The blog states that they wanted to buy a phone card not that they told the shopkeeper that they wanted to buy a phone card to call Israel. The point that the girl is making is that Jews do not feel safe in Turkey right now and that signs such as the one Turk refers to don't add to thier feelings of security in the place they live.

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 6:20 pm ET

And sorry CS which of our leaders has been disrespectul? Peres was respectful to everyone at Davos. Did you watch? I posted the link.

And to whom have they been disrespectful?

Nona   February 2nd, 2009 6:34 pm ET

CS, if you've ever bought a phone card in a country besides the USA, and if your intention when buying that phone card is to make calls outside of the country where you're purchasing it, then you know that often you have to specificy WHERE you are calling in order to buy the right kind of card.

benyemen   February 2nd, 2009 6:36 pm ET

ALGERIA HAVE BEEN OCCUPIED FOR 130 YEARS,

THE ALGERIANS DIDN'T SAY IT'S A LOSING BATTLE AGAINST FRANCE WHEN THERE WERE OVER 2 MILLION FRENCH SETTLERS IN ALGERIA THEY LOST OVER 1.5 MILLION MARTYRS BUT WON THEIR COUNTRY FROM THE OCCUPIERS.

THE BLACKS IN SOUTH AFRICA DIDN'T SAY IT'S A LOSING BATTLE WITH THE WHITE SETTLERS THEY FOUGHT AND WON THEIR COUNTRY FROM WHITE SETTLERS.

AND IMAGINE SOUTH AFRICA IN SIZE, DEVELOPMENT, INDUSTRIAL, WEALTH, ETC........COMPARED TO ISRAEL.

Nona   February 2nd, 2009 6:37 pm ET

Hey there, Harvey! Good to see you! I'd love to talk to you about your trip off the blog. Can I get your email through Linda?

harvey   February 2nd, 2009 6:41 pm ET

Hi Nona,

I don't think Linda has my e mail....but if she has access to it you are more than welcome.

Very interested in putting a program together for my teens re understanding and learning about the Civil Rights movement....thought you would have some great input re suggesting speakers and best way to present.

benyemen   February 2nd, 2009 6:46 pm ET

WHOA....NONA THERE IS NO STOPPING (THERE IS ALWAYS A LIE FOR EVERY CLAIM EVEN A PHONE CARD PURCHASE) WHERE IN THE WORLD SOMEONE WILL ASK YOU TO DECLARE WHERE DO YOU NEED TO CALL BEFORE I SELL YOU THIS CARD?

Author Jack Bernstein stated:
“I am well aware of the tactics YOU, my Zionist brethren, use to quiet anyone who attempts to expose any of your subversive acts. If the person is gentile, you cry “you’re anti-Semitic,” which is nothing more than a smokescreen to hide your actions. But if a Jew is the person doing the exposing, you resort to other tactics:
First, you ignore the charges, hoping the information will not be given widespread distribution. It the information starts reacting too many people, you ridicule the information and the person giving the information. If that doesn’t work, your next step is character assassination. If the author or speaker hasn’t been involved in sufficient scandal, you are adept at fabricating a scandal against the person or persons. If none of these are effective, you are known to resort to physical attacks. But NEVER do you try to prove the information wrong. ” (from The Life Of An American Jew in Racist-Marxist Israel. By Jack Bernstein, 1984)

Nona   February 2nd, 2009 6:51 pm ET

Yes, there are countries where you DO have to specify where you are calling even though you can deny it all you want.

Have you ever been stuck with a phone card that won't call where you want to call? I have a number of times in a number of countries. So have people I've traveled with. It's very frustrating!

Oh, and Benyomin, quoting hate-based literature doesn't really add to your credibility.

Sam   February 2nd, 2009 7:15 pm ET

Harvey,

did you know that all those involved in the Civil Rights movements are against what Israel is doing to the Palestinians?

benyemen   February 2nd, 2009 7:22 pm ET

I AM HONORED BY THE SELECTED FOR ME NICK NAME, AND AS EXPECTED AND MENTIONED BY YOUR OWN JACK BERNSTEIN YOU ARE NON–SHAMEFUL LIARS, BUT WHEN SOMEONE CALLS YOU A LIAR MAYBE YOU FEEL PROMOTED AND NOT DEGRADED.

STILL I CANN'T COMPREHEND THE FACT, HOW CHEAP ARE YOU.

Author Jack Bernstein stated:
“I am well aware of the tactics YOU, my Zionist brethren, use to quiet anyone who attempts to expose any of your subversive acts. If the person is gentile, you cry “you’re anti-Semitic,” which is nothing more than a smokescreen to hide your actions. But if a Jew is the person doing the exposing, you resort to other tactics:
First, you ignore the charges, hoping the information will not be given widespread distribution. It the information starts reacting too many people, you ridicule the information and the person giving the information. If that doesn’t work, your next step is character assassination. If the author or speaker hasn’t been involved in sufficient scandal, you are adept at fabricating a scandal against the person or persons. If none of these are effective, you are known to resort to physical attacks. But NEVER do you try to prove the information wrong. ” (from The Life Of An American Jew in Racist-Marxist Israel. By Jack Bernstein, 1984)

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 8:23 pm ET

benyemen,

You're Welcome!

Good luck in your of endeavors in biting the ankles of the pit bull.

I hope it works well for you!

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 8:39 pm ET

benyemen February 2nd, 2009 1846 GMT

Methods used by the typical radical Islamic terrorist supporter when being exposed as a fraud:

First, you ignore the charges, hoping the information will not be given widespread distribution. It the information starts reacting too many people, you ridicule the information and the person giving the information. If that doesn’t work, your next step is character assassination. If the author or speaker hasn’t been involved in sufficient scandal, you are adept at fabricating a scandal against the person or persons. If none of these are effective, you are known to resort to physical attacks. But NEVER do you try to prove the information wrong.

Truly amazing!!

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 8:45 pm ET

benyemen-

She's talking about a prepaid phone card!!! Not a "sim" card for a cell phone!

CS   February 2nd, 2009 9:16 pm ET

Now this is exactly what I'm talking about. A couple of weeks ago, we were talking about Palestine and Israel. Many supporters of a free Palestine, were trying to argue the point that Palestinians are denied food, clean water, electricity, medical attention, and basic living needs. I have mentioned a woman at an airport, who was stripped, made to remove her sanitary napkin, and stripped of all her feminine products, and forced to board the plain bloodied, and humiliated. Many other terrible things have been done at the hands of this tyrranical Israeli govt.
None of you blindly obediant supporters of oppression (Israel), had any sympothy then! Now you are all WHINING...about someones feelings being hurt by a sign. How ironic. How pathetic. To Nona and Harvey: The specifics on what SOME shop owners' policies on selling phone cards is REALLY minor, in comparison to the way Israel goes around the ME stomping around, making a mess of things.

CS   February 2nd, 2009 9:19 pm ET

And another thing. This is what I mean about the biased media...

If it were an Islamic person making an offensive statement to a western, or Israeli leader, there would be headlines of grandure. "These people are unreasonable, they're sponsors of terror.." blah blah blah. The whole thing is shameful.

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 9:32 pm ET

CS February 2nd, 2009 2119 GMT

And another thing. This is what I mean about the biased media…

CS,

Why is it that the media coverage is so biased??? Why is it that the Arab world fails to have their voices heard? Or, may better question- Why is it that the rest of the world fails to listen to the plight of the oppressed Arabs???

I'm serious-– I'm not joking with these questions.

How is it that the collective Arab world continues to fail in it's ability to gain the respect it so desperately wants from the rest of the world?? Why??

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 9:36 pm ET

Interesting conversations. Every media probably has some bias, no offense CNN, which is why it's good to read many of them – none Arab or Israeli if studying this issue.. CS – the poor woman on the plane. I disagree about the offensive statement part though – most of us are pretty thick skinned in most parts of the world. The shoe throwing incident was not a biggie here. Being bombed or threatened offends us, oddly. Also, and no offense benyemen, but quoting articles or books or web sites is not the best. Everyone has an opinion, like noses. Who cares?

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 9:44 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy!

How are you guys??? The fireworks missed you guys last night I see!

They hit you tunnel did they??

mooshy   February 2nd, 2009 9:44 pm ET

carlos i miss you

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 9:47 pm ET

And another benyemen – you talk about your "Arab brothers." I think many feel the way that I do – we are people brothers (and sisters). If one is killed then the world is poorer for it despite their country or government or religion. I think that many of your Arab brothers have sad hearts at all the violence just like me. I'm not there, but I've had Muslim friends. I'm not saying that people in Gaza should not complain. I hope someone listens. I just don't think missiles are the best way to get everyone listening. People in Gaza deserve dignity just like every other person in the world. Now I've seen people here, in the U.S., ignorant ones, and I know they are everywhere. But, now the missiles are hitting Israel and Israel is firing back and that is a repeat. Can we move on to solutions to make folks happy?

mooshy   February 2nd, 2009 10:03 pm ET

Israel is a democracy. people are wrong to say to israelis what to do.
they know what to do .period.
palestine is israel and israel is palestine.

are you happy carlos.

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 10:05 pm ET

mooshy you do remind me of Akiva. Did Akiva leave, permanently?

mooshy   February 2nd, 2009 10:07 pm ET

carlos
uor not an israeli and you are not even an american and you defend our case. israel loves you and greets you.

mooshy   February 2nd, 2009 10:12 pm ET

gleigh
i think i told you before to look for a life. solve your problems or die. i think your prozak is finished old lady.

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 10:14 pm ET

Am I now a death frog? Old joke. Still remember it.

mooshy   February 2nd, 2009 10:18 pm ET

carlos
you need to consult more references if you want us to respect you. you rely on your intuition and this is bad in a political forum.
a political forum presupposes that you are either involved in decision-making position, an authority in the field, or you are a reputable researcher with a Ph.D..
If you can't be subsumed under any one of these categories, leave because i ll make you a joke of you here.

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 10:21 pm ET

Carlos – you are being "subsumed" – whatever that means. Ouch. It must mean something bad....not sure.

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 10:28 pm ET

GLeigh

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy are all the same person---one leaves and the other shows up and responds to the posts addressed to other one-–

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 10:30 pm ET

lolol mooshy – you love twisting. I said I was married 23 years. I'm fifty the hubby is 53 and almost 54. What would I do with a kiddie almost my oldest child's age. Probably fuss at him to clean something or at him for eating greasy foods. I hope the children this age do have a good future, mine in particular. I think that's probably wrong to care about mine more, but it's a mom deal. Inborn.

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 10:34 pm ET

Carlos – that sounds weird to me. But, I'm an open minded person in general. I know they switch names. I don't really care. I have one name on my one blog, the first one. Doesn't matter.

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 10:34 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy,

Trust me, I have no desire to earn nor would I put any value on your respect! Your respect is worthless and your views are morally bankrupt!

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 10:36 pm ET

Sweet to warn me Carlos. I kinda got it long ago. I can live peacefully with myself. I hope others do the same. Some shouldn't. No offense, just fact. Nona, I am always amazed reading your posts and learn so much. It sounded like you needed a rest. I'm just a mom so not so good at blogging.

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 10:38 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy,

Please define "subsumed"!!

LOL!!!

mooshy   February 2nd, 2009 10:41 pm ET

israel has the right to kill civilians. nobody says the opposite.

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 10:44 pm ET

Carlos – do death frogs get subsumed? If so, I need to warn Linda. Sorry but all of this seems funny to me. Mooshy, that is about as ridiculous as it comes. Israel tries to warn and help them and still stop missiles. Hard stuff. I still think men should find a battlefield somewhere.

mooshy   February 2nd, 2009 10:49 pm ET

carlos
what is your highest degree? Really?

mooshy   February 2nd, 2009 10:53 pm ET

carlos and gleigh

Quick definitions (subsume)

▸ verb: contain or include ("This new system subsumes the old one")
▸ verb: consider (an instance of something) as part of a general rule or principle

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 10:56 pm ET

lolol mooshy. He must answer or be subsumed. We need the professor, my Palestinian Christian Brother, to help Carlos. Carlos I have no degree. I went to college for fun so have 141 hours but got tired of my professors. I did proofread their papers though. I hope you have a string of initials after your name though. My hubby does. I'm always impressed.

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 11:00 pm ET

mooshy – news flash. No one here uses subsumed. Archaic. Ye need to catch up.

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 11:02 pm ET

I'm going to go look up that word. BRB. Never heard it before in my life, and I listen to words.

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 11:13 pm ET

I finally found our 2700 page dictionary and the word subsumed! Wow! It means to be classified under a general category. No wonder I never heard it. I'm American. None of us think in general categories very much. We do our own thing mostly. Weird word. No one here uses it. I don't really want to be subsumed! Scary stuff!

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 11:14 pm ET

Carlos – Beward – you might be subsumed!!!

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 11:15 pm ET

Subsume and consume are very much alike. I don't like either personally. I think for myself. Always have.

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 11:20 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy February 2nd, 2009 2249 GMT

carlos
what is your highest degree? Really?

You're funny!!!!!! This is the same question mohammed gharbawi asked me yesterday then he left and moses showed up !!!!!!!!

What a hoot!!!!!!

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 11:24 pm ET

Sorry-– i got subsumed and almost couldn't find my way back!!!!

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 11:25 pm ET

Carlos – this is serious. Stop laughing. I've made myself so you have to also. Otherwise, you will be subsumed.

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 11:31 pm ET

GLeigh

wait, just a few minutes and either moses or mohammed gharbawi will show up and mooshy has already disappeared!

Carlos   February 2nd, 2009 11:46 pm ET

GLeigh,

Seriously, I've this happen several days, right around 23:00-23:30 GMT, I think CNN runs some kind of a query on the blogs for those who've been booted. And whichever of those 3 clowns is logged on disappears and one of the other 2 shows up a few minutes later. But none of the 3 are ever on line at the same time.

GLeigh   February 2nd, 2009 11:49 pm ET

Carlos – I don't care. Anyone who makes up their minds about world affairs based on a blog can't be that bright anyway. Let them say whatever under whatever name. I do think being a professor, a Rabbi, and doc takes imagination. I liked the shoe statue though, art, so I'm a little different anyway. My ribs hurt. I laughed toooo hard. My hubby told me to be nice though. I'm trying.

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 12:21 am ET

Well my funny bone got subsumed with humor, but I need to get subsumed with house work stuff. As always, it was enlightening. That is from Buddha by the way. Night Carlos.

Debra   February 3rd, 2009 12:38 am ET

The US is going to send 15,000 more troops to Afghanistan. I wish the US would just bring all the soldiers home. We aren't wanted in all these foreign countries. Americans over there are being kidnapped. What a waste of time the US is spending over there, let alone the money. If what we did was appreciated it would be different. Let all of them fend for themselves. Truth be known, if US troops would leave from over there, the fighting would stop. But, what do I know!!!! Right! Just my opinion! Thanks

Daniel Rosaupan   February 3rd, 2009 12:45 am ET

Libra

That is another lie. Muslims do not fight fairly. Look at Hamas, they are putting their rockets at civilian centers. Is that how you define good and fair strategy fighting? I beg to disagree. Second, Arab countries became a Muslim country by forced conversions otherwise they will be beheaded just like what happen to Constantinople what is now Turkey. Is that fair fighting? I beg to disagree.

On the other hand, I do not subscribe either to the violence made by Israel. What I am trying to say is we must not allow ourselves to be carried out by our emotions to walkout in a dialogue just like in Davos. That will be a terrible mistake. We must be civilized in dealing with other people especially when we disagree. We may not be given an equal opportunity but there are remedies to it. We must exhaust all peaceful means to resolve conflict

Nona   February 3rd, 2009 1:08 am ET

Two more ignorant comments by CS that I just have to respond to:

To Nona and Harvey: The specifics on what SOME shop owners’ policies on selling phone cards is REALLY minor, in comparison to the way Israel goes around the ME stomping around, making a mess of things.

1. YOU are the one who brought up the whole phone card thing. Our comments about phone cards are in response to YOU making an issue out of it. Interesting how once your ignorant assumptions are corrected, it's a "REALLY minor" point" and you turn it around as if Harvey and I made an issue of it.

2. The specifics have nothing to do with shop owners' policies on selling phone cars. The specifics have to do with how the phone cards are produced and the restrictions on where they can be used. Duh.

Travel. You need to get out more.

I have mentioned a woman at an airport, who was stripped ... forced to board the plain bloodied, and humiliated ... Now you are all WHINING…about someones feelings being hurt by a sign.

1. Indeed, I said during that discussion that what happened to that woman was awful, but I understood why Israel has to take such aggressive precautions. Go back and reread.

2. More importantly, there is a HUGE difference between an indignity committed upon one individual person and descrimination against an entire class of people based on religion. It's why in the USA we have a Civil Rights Act and a special class of crimes called "hate crimes." I expected you to make the connection, but once again I overestimated you.

Nona   February 3rd, 2009 1:12 am ET

P.S. To CS -

If the signs in the shops said "Dogs welcome but blacks aren't," or "Dogs welcome but Mexicans aren't," I suspect you'd have a completely different opinion on the matter. But as long as it's just Jews who are the target, you bend over backwards to justify it. BRILLIANT!

Sos   February 3rd, 2009 2:27 am ET

harvey, Nona,

OK OK then why Jews where ever the go they get persecuted gaze chambered, slaughtered, murdered & butchered?

The whole world is wrong and jews are right ? this is the bottom line it seems !

One place of worship, you cant expect a one hundred, when there is only few jews in Iraq, but gain even the small shed of light, is better than total blackout! and i mentioned that in the context of having many properties and houses with surrounded lands still kept for the jew in Baghdad, this is really an irony , the presence of this shows that iraq is a multicultural and way beyond our expectation.

Yes there are some jews who work and live in Dubai, but they are Americans and they really doing very well!! where ever the jew go money will follow , for me its the other way round , just joking .

There are Moroccan jews and Tunisian jews as well, who still live there , they made a choice it seems to prefer Arabs than any thing else, against all the bad things that you claim happened to them.

Try to love the ME its full of wonderful things and the culture here is everything, there are wonderful Arabs who are the best of neighbors and many religious Muslims who value and live by reasoning , the science of the logic is there book.

Nona, you too need to travel but without perception this is the value added advantage .

Choukran Jazilan – Thank you

Professor   February 3rd, 2009 10:26 am ET

Sos,

I agree with you... I've traveled a lot and seen how the jews live in the middle east but what this group of zionist bloggers wants the world to believe otherwise in order to serve their agenda. They wants us to believe they wants peace but i have not seen one of them condemning the mudering of innocent Palestinian women and children by the Israeli war machine. Which tells me they want peace only for the Israeli and not for the Palestinians too.

Professor   February 3rd, 2009 10:33 am ET

Nona,

That should tell you something.... Its the Israeli war machine that will allowing this to become acceptable.

If the Palestinian were having a normal life then all of us here now who are against the Israeli zionist actions would be in defence of the Jews who are being discriminated against.

But right now its the other way around. The Israeli zionist agenda that needs to be stopped.

I know not all Jews are Israeli zionists I work with a lot of jewish organizations so i am well aware of the differences.

benyemen   February 3rd, 2009 10:58 am ET

GOOOOOOOOD AFTERNOOOOOOOON OCCUPIEEEEEED PALESTINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNE

NO COUNTRY IN THIS WORLD WAS BASED ON FAITH EXCEPT OF ISRAEL, WHY IS THAT?

IS IT BECAUSE THEY ARE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE?

OR THEY HAVE TO UNITE IN A PLACE CALLED THE PROMISED LAND?

WHAT I KNOW IS JEWS, CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS, OTHER FAITHS ARE BORN AS PER THEIR PARENTS RELIGION THEY HAVE NO CHOICE THERE AND THEN, BUT MAY CONVERT TO WHATEVER RELIGION THEY FIND LOGIG AS PER EACH INDIVIDUAL REASONING.

SECOND THEY ARE BORN AS PER THEIR ONE OF THE PARENT NATIONALITY OR PER THE COUNTRY THEY ARE BORN AT.

SO IF A JEW WAS BORN IN ZIMBABWE WILL BE A ZIMBABWEAN JEW

AND IF A CHRISTIAN WAS BORN IN EGYPT WILL BE AN EGYPTIAN CHRISTIAN.

AND IF A MUSLIM WAS BORN IN FRANCE WILL BE A FRENCH MUSLIM.

THERE IS NO JEW ZIMBABWEAN, OR CHRISTIAN EGYPT OR MUSLIM FRENCH.

SO WHY DOES THE ZIONISTS JEWS ONLY WANTS JEW ISRAEL.

OR IS IT FOR THE MUSLIM ARMIES TO GET THEM ALL UNITED IN ONE PLACE WHEN THEY COME FOR THEM. SO THAT THEY DON'T GET TROUBLE FOLLOWING THEM ALL OVER THE WORLD??

I WONDER???

Professor   February 3rd, 2009 11:17 am ET

Benyemen,

Its really not about Jews are a religious group. Zionism is a political movement and has nothing to do with the Jews as a religious group. Becuase they are willing to murder, if they can, any religious jew who stands in their way of accomplishing their goals. For them the end justify the means. As you know to the civilized world that is unacceptable becuase the end does not justify the means. Thats why we see them now murdering hundreds of innocent women and children without feeling any guilt over it.

CS   February 3rd, 2009 2:03 pm ET

Gleigh said something that got my attention earlier. I know she's not here, but oh well.

She complains of missiles hitting Israel. Now, as I have stated numerous times...I disagree with the way Hamas does things, but I do not disagree with the fact that they will not kneel down to a tyrranacle govt who opresses them on the other hand. But still, they operate in a poor manner, noetheless.

This brings me to my point. When Israel Goes around, bombing Syria, Lebanon, Iraq (Israel & US), Nobody is on the Cnn blogsite crying about it. Most of us outside the Arab world don't even hear about it, and if we do, it is reported to us in a way that makes the Arabs seem like they deserved whatever they got. Why is it ok for Israel to have INITIATED bombings, and incursions into all the aforementioned countries, with no retaliation? Why does GLeigh, and others like her always want to justify THE SAME ACTIONS ISRAEL TAKES, BUT CONDEMN ARAB NATIONS?

In the case of Syria, and Iraq, Israel bombed them with the Intel, not proof, but the belief that they had bad intentions, or powerful weapons.
This is equivalent to me walking down the street, and seeing someone suspicious, and attacking them, because they LOOK suspicious. Then when the local cops/media arrive, they make it seem as if he got attacked, it was his fault, and should change his appearance. Meanwhile the perpetrator of the crime is given a reward. This crap with Israel/U.S. over the last 20 years has can be likened to the twilight zone of old.

CS   February 3rd, 2009 2:13 pm ET

Although Benyemen and I have disagreed heavily in the past, we have agreed on some things as well. His last post brings me back to what I beleive, and Professor has said in here before. I disagree that Israel should be solely for the Israelis. Culture and religion are different, but in some ways intertwined. I do think that ONE good solution to the Israeli/Palestinian problem, would be to remove ALL boarders between Israel/Palestine, and allow one another to live in close proximity, and roam about as they wish. This is the way things were before the U.N. got involved, and helped create all this animosity. I beleive this would (over time) heal some old wounds between both sides, and decrease tensions between Israel and other Arab states.

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 2:24 pm ET

CS – I will be the first, respectfully, to admit that I don't know in detail all the history of this issue. It gets complicated and I've not bothered a lot. Lots of finger pointing and accusations. I can't imagine making one state. As a mom, would I feel comfortable letting my three babies out to play with a Palestinian neighbor next door? And vice versa? No way. Too much violence. Keep them apart.

About the missiles. I just know what happened in the U.S. People, CEO's and janitors went to work one day, from many parts of the world, to the Twin Towers. I had a relative in the Pentagon, and her husband. They got out alive. Someone who no one knew crashed planes to kill people. Very cruel. The cruelty of men amazes me. I saw people "happy" about it. Well, that helped me understand a little how Israel must feel. It's not great always being attacked.

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 2:32 pm ET

CS – I have always worried about the people of Gaza. I've fussed at Hamas for involving them.

harvey   February 3rd, 2009 2:55 pm ET

CS,

Just a couple of points.....

First of all I agree that in a Utopian world it would be lovely to remove all borders and let everybody "roam around". The USA doesn't do it with Mexico yet, Northern Ireland doesn't do it with Eire yet, South Africa doesn't do it with Zimbabwe yet....And certainly Kuwait doesn't do it with Iraq etc, etc, etc. I think Syria would quite like to do it with Lebanon but the Lebanese aren't so agreeable. Are you suggesting this utopia just for Israel or is this your vision for world wide peace?

However as an Israeli I would love to see this freedom of movement to eventually happen. First though I would like us (the Palestinians and Israelis) to live in our own secure borders, recognising each others right to exist, in peace for about 50 years or so. I suggest we cooperate re trade agreements much as the EU did. Once we have established that we can live in peace over 50 years or so, then maybe we can do away with the borders.

Secondly, Israel is not just for the Israelis. Please see below article on refugees from Darfur that Israel has taken in

Darfur refugee looks forward to his future in Israel – ISRAEL21c
A long, dangerous journey from persecution in Sudan has finally come to an end, after Darfur refugee Ismail Ahmad was issued an Israeli ID card. Now he plans to open a computer ...

http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enDispWho=Articles^l2011&enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDi... · Cached page

"What this does is give us a feeling that we have a future," said Ismail Ahmad, showing his freshly issued Israeli ID card.

Forty-two-year-old Ahmad is one of hundreds of Darfur refugees recently granted temporary resident status by the Israeli government.

The Darfur refugees, fleeing persecution in Sudan, entered Israel by making a perilous journey across the Egypt-Israel border. Their new status makes it legal for them to work in Israel and will enable them to obtain medical coverage.

"This is what we were waiting for, it opens up opportunities for us," Ahmad told ISRAEL21c.

In actual fact Israel is home to us Jews. Whether we are from Ethiopia, England, Russia, Yemen, Syria, Germany etc etc....Its the one place where we don't need to worry about being persecuted by the country playing host to us. basically 'cos its our country. One small place the approximate size of New Jersey where we are in control of our own destiny.

And frankly you can condemn us, you can sit on the sidelines, you can spout as much rhetoric as you want, but we ain't going nowhere. This small scrap of land is ours and though we are willing to make terretorial concessions to gain peace and though we wish with all our hearts for a two state solution...we ain't gonna put our destiny in anybody else's hands. Israel is the home for the Jews, just like England is the home for th English and Turkey is the home for the Turks...if you want to condemn all nationalism as racist go ahead, but just to confirm jewish nationalism (zionism) as racist seems, well rather racist.

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 2:59 pm ET

CS – one land. How would that work, as a parent knowing the violence. You send your children out to play in the backyard. You are Jewish or Palestinian and the person next door is the opposite. How safe do you feel? I've read some on here who deny the Holocaust so how in touch with reality is that... I have fussed about the deaths in Gaza, many times if you read back. I have fussed at Hamas for hiding missiles and bombs in populated areas. I have fussed at the civilians not having bomb shelters. I have fussed at the world for letting this drag on and get to this point.

CS   February 3rd, 2009 3:09 pm ET

Harvey. You're talking like you stole Palestine like 500yrs/ago. Israel has only been a nation for 60yrs. That is why I beleive that Palestinians (some) are still bitter about the whole thing.
And all this tough talk is unnecessary "we aint goin nowhere"
I'm not impressed. Israel was'nt talking so tuff to the Germans.
England is for English and blah blah blah. All you're saying to me is that you rightfully stole this land, and you "aint goin nowhere"
Well, that is for God to decide. Don't go gettin to big for your britches...you see what God has done in the past when you lost your way. Rather...when the Israelites, the true people who belong in Jerusalem. Most of the people in Israel now are Edomites. Europeans. Just because you're a jew, does not make you an Israelite.

Bill   February 3rd, 2009 3:10 pm ET

Turkey's leader said on Tuesday that criticism of Israel does not amount to anti-Semitism, and that his country guarantees the rights and safety of its Jewish population.

Erdogan has been a harsh critic of Israel because of the civilian death toll during Operation Cast Lead, which ended nearly two weeks ago. Last week, he angrily walked out of a forum attended by the President Shimon Peres in Davos, Switzerland.

But in his comments on Tuesday, Erdogan said that the country had no history of anti-Semitism, and described the act as a "crime against humanity."

A statement from the Jewish community said that it welcomed Erdogan's condemnation of anti-Semitism, but expressed concern about what it called harshly anti-Semitic rhetoric on some television programs.

harvey   February 3rd, 2009 3:12 pm ET

Actually CS you made the poin for me beautifully yestaerday when you were talking about Jews living in Turkey being outnumbered.

CS February 2nd, 2009 1805 GMT

Harvey. ...

I mean if I were living in a hostile enviornment, I would communicate with “hostile” people as little as possible, If I was outnumbered

Thank you CS. You see you would not want to live in a hostile country as a minority being outnumbered keeping a low profile in order not to antagonise the natives. You wouldn't want to be subject to the controls of a foreign government.

Well nor do us Jews. We want our own state. And we do not dent the Palestinians theirs either. Read the Peres organisation link. I sent it to you.

I just want my kids to grow up free and proud and be in control of their own destiny....I will work with anybody who wants peace. But if anybody tries to hurt us or destroy us, we will defend ourselves. You may not like what I am saying but that is how it is.

harvey   February 3rd, 2009 3:39 pm ET

CS

I really don't care about impressing you or not. Whether you approve or you don't is not important. I live here. I get to vote next week not you. I am very grateful that you are so interested in my country and in your views...but at the end of the day we are here....and we ain't going nowhere. That obviously upsets you, but that's fine too!

Again read the lnk about the Peres organisation that I sent you. It explains exactly how I feel about promoting two people's rights to exist.

And what do you mean about Israel wasn't talking so tough to the Germans? What are you implying? If you are saying that the Germans wiped many of us out, you are correct. But that just illustrates my point that at the time we did not have a country of our own. But please do explain your reference to the Germans....

Oh and by the way. Thpose of us who live here are Israelis. Proud Israelis, proud jews, proud of the country that we have built in the last 60 years.....and we certainly don't need the approval of CS to enjoy the fruits of our achievments. Sorry, the State of Israel doesn't need for CS to be impressed. But you are welcome to come help me run a soccer game between arab and jewish kids to try and promote better understanding and peace between our peoples.

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 3:50 pm ET

What is an Edomite? Never heard that before. Learning. I try not to be a racist person.

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 3:53 pm ET

Are they the ones who left Darfur and fled to Israel so they wouldn't be exterminated?

harvey   February 3rd, 2009 4:02 pm ET

Hi G Leigh

According to jewish tradition Issac had 2 sons, Esau and Jacob.

The descendants of Esau were the Edomites, (Europeans). Jewish tradition believes that the Roman Empire epitomises the might of the Edomites.

The descendants of Jacob were us Jews. The Israelites. The ones who were slaves in Egypt, Crossed the Red Sea. Kindom of David. First temple, second temple etc.

Basically CS is trying to cast doubt on the legitmacy of us Jews being here in Israel.

My point is simple. We can all argue abpout rights or wrongs, legimate claims or otherwise. who owns the land who doesn't....al lacademic and irrelevant. CS has the luxury to distort the facts as he sees fit. It don't matter....Here and now is what counts. Two people can live side by side, we have to find a way to do so. We are here. Palestinians are here....peace together. Not easy. But as your President would say, YES WE CAN!!!!!!!!!

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 4:06 pm ET

People still read stuff from the Roman Empire? I have to force my son to read stuff from 1776. Oh well. I believe we can too. I always have hope that people can co-exist together, peacefully. I've not seen a lot of it. There is a dog across the street who growls at my dog all the time. My dog growls back. They both know there own yards. Perhaps people will learn.

CS   February 3rd, 2009 4:14 pm ET

Well Harvey. Just as you say my opinion is not hinged upon What goes on in Israel. The same goes for you.

And your violin story about feeling outnumbered falls on deaf ears. As a "minority" in a country who hates anybody of a different race than their own, I really could give a damn about your petty sentiment. There are a great many racist comments, situations that I face on a daily basis. I choose to move forward. In 2009, can you tell me of racist things that occur towards people of color in America? Can you tell me of the signs with animals on them at Mccain's rallies, that compared them to Obama? Can you tell me of the many terrible things that still happen today in America toward brown skinned people?

No. You can't. Because the media has to coddle PPOOOORR Israel every time someones feelings get hurt. Please. Once again...not impressed. And I really think it's comical that you have to reassure yoyrself every time you talk "we ain't goin nowhere." It does'nt bother me at all. Say what you will. You vote in your elections. I have voted in mine. Other than that, unless you're a high level diplomat, I really think you think a little too much of yourself.

Sam   February 3rd, 2009 4:14 pm ET

Hey guys,

just check the UN maps for who owned what in 1947:

domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/vMaps

It will clearly proves that the Palestinians owned most of the land.

harvey   February 3rd, 2009 4:15 pm ET

Yeah G Leigh...

We can co-exist in peace...it will happen. Please the lord soon. But we need good men and women on both sides to lead us there.. We need to put aside the hatred and the hostility...if the kids in a soccer game can do it, the politicians around the table should be able to too.

harvey   February 3rd, 2009 4:16 pm ET

Thanks Sam and tell us who accepted Partition and who didn't....as you seem in the mood to educate us all.

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 4:20 pm ET

CS – Did the Nazis coddle the Jewish people in WW II, according to your version? We've all read how the Holocaust didn't really happen, according to some but there is some evidence to the contrary. Decades of it in fact. I think Harvey has a point about racists things. Perhaps he's experienced, or had ancestors who experienced such things. History does repeat itself, Might be a different skin color or religion and degree. The WW II was very extreme of course – unless you don't think it happened at all.

harvey   February 3rd, 2009 4:21 pm ET

Please see below Sam....Us Jews accepted partition, the Arab nations did not. And actually if you look at the map of Palestine in British mandate time you will see that most of old PALESTINE IS NOW JORDAN!!!!!

In 1948, the Day Israel was born, it was attacked on all fronts by the armies of five nations, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq.
Three years after the Holocaust murdered one third of the Jewish people
Israel's neighbours tried to murder the Jewish state.
Since then, from that day to this, Israel has lived with war or the threat of war, terror or the threat of terror.
Yet Israel has sought peace.
In 1948, under Ben Gurion.
In 1967 after the six day war.
In 1991 at Madrid.
In 1993 on the White House Lawn.
In 1998, at Wye Valley.
In 2000 at Camp David.
In 2001 at Taba.

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 4:25 pm ET

Harvey – children and animals seem capable of peace and co-existing. Men do not. Odd. Makes me wonder when we actually grow up and loose our reasoning abilities.

Fawad Ali   February 3rd, 2009 4:25 pm ET

Few minutes ago Middle East envoy was holding a news conference with Secretary of State. We all have heard President Obama telling him not to dictate but move on as a good listener. Looks like Mr. Mitchell has super-amplified President Obama’s sentiments, it was like he just got back from vocations. Totally relax, No worries …… not giving a Damn…….

If that's how Timothy Geithner or some other Obama's economic team members react to economic crisis, they would have been crucified by now

Sam   February 3rd, 2009 4:28 pm ET

Harvey,

Making up lies as you go to confuse the reader does not work... Lie after lie on this page was saying Palestine was almost empty.... the Jews were majority.... Now you want to blame it on who did not accept the division.... Let me explain to you.... United Nation has no right under its charter to take Palestinian land and give it to someone else to establish a racist (jewish only) state. So, its obvious the Palestinians would not accpet it. And yes the Jews immigrants from europe would in a heart beat... who would not accept a land give it to him for free?

Sam   February 3rd, 2009 4:30 pm ET

GLeigh,

is a Harvey a woman? or an animal?

Fawad Ali   February 3rd, 2009 4:31 pm ET

Few minutes ago Middle East envoy was holding a news conference with Secretary of State. We all have heard President Obama telling him not to dictate but move on as a good listener. Looks like Mr. Mitchell has super-amplified President Obama’s sentiments, it was like he just got back from vacations. Totally relax, No worries …… not giving a Damn…….

If that’s how Timothy Geithner or some other Obama’s economic team members react to economic crisis, they would have been crucified by now.

And not even his single appearance is captured while he was on tour

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 4:37 pm ET

Sam – He's a plant and you are an idiot.

harvey   February 3rd, 2009 4:42 pm ET

Sam...

There you go again insulting and name calling. Anybody would think you were frightened of debate. You can call me what you want. But me and a load of other Israelis are here now. And as I said we ain't going nowhere. So are the Palestinians. Theyr'e here too. So either we learn to live together in peace or we just continue this endless cycle of violence. My vote goes towards the peace path. Thats why I put my enegy into getting kids (Arab and jew) to play soccer together. Personally I would rather teach the kids to play together and therefore to live together in the here and now rather than to destroy each other on the misdeeds of the past.

You obviously feel differently. But you are welcome to join us in our pursuit of peace anytime you have a change of heart.

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 4:42 pm ET

Well we female people are doing lunch. Females are much more responsible and restrained. Ever notice that? Perhaps though you will get to shoot a missile or something soon.

Sam   February 3rd, 2009 4:55 pm ET

Harvey,

I was not insulting anyone... I was just trying understand who i am talking to because GLeigh's comment was confusing.... so now i know i am talking to a plant who wants peace... nice meeting you Harvey.

harvey   February 3rd, 2009 5:03 pm ET

Nice to meet you too!

Much love and peace. MORE HOUMOS LESS HAMAS.

Harvey the peaceful plant

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 6:13 pm ET

benyemen

So, how do you explain the fact that 20% of the citizens of Israel are Palestinian Arabs??? Yes, citizens. with full rights of citizens and seats in Parliament!

Please explain!

CS   February 3rd, 2009 6:18 pm ET

WWWOOOAAHH!! Everybody pause. GLeigh, the one who ACTS like a saint, and condemns those who rant, has just called someone and idiot. Now this is completely unbecoming of a ... lady? I noticed how responsible and restrained Condi Rice was, as she did all Bushs' dirty work and lies. What a good example of how..."responsible" women are.

harvey   February 3rd, 2009 6:26 pm ET

CS

Prince Charles is happy to spend time talking to his plants....I

think G Leigh just got upset on my behalf that despite my name being one normally attributed to a guy (I have yet to meet a girl called Harvey) Sam resorted to insultingly asking whether I was an animal or a woman...

If it makes Sam lean towards peace I am very happy to be known as Harvey the peaceful plant....I've been called lots worse things on this blog.

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 6:48 pm ET

benyemen

So, how do you explain the fact that 20% of the citizens of Israel are Palestinian Arabs??? Yes, citizens with full rights and seats in Parliament!

Please explain!

GLeigh   February 3rd, 2009 6:54 pm ET

CS – You must have people on this blog confused. I assure you that no one in this time is going to nominate me for sainthood. It's difficult, but I'll live with it. And, I was using great restraint in calling Sam an idiot. I was thinking much, much worse. I figure if the "shoe" fits, wear it.

Harvey, my man, are you feeling okay?? You look a little green around the gills. Maybe you should take something.

Hi Carlos. Watch out and don't be subsumed.

Well, guys until another day. Take care. Peace.

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 7:03 pm ET

Sam February 3rd, 2009 1614 GMT

Hey guys,

just check the UN maps for who owned what in 1947:

***********************************************

Mr. Peace Activist,

Take it up with the UN. The UN and the governing authority, Great Britain ageed on and issued UN Resolution 181.

So, take it up with them!

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 7:14 pm ET

CS,

This is the way things were before the U.N. got involved, and helped create all this animosity

"Take down the borders and let everyone roam free!"

CS,

You're kidding, right!

1) I think this is the first time I've seen a Palestinian sympathizer admit that it was the UN who "took" the land and not the Israelis!

2) Western Europe has only opened its' borders in recent years! And Europe isn't filled with radicals who believe in wearing suicide vests and launching rockets at their neighbors.

The borders between the US, Mexico and Canada are controlled.

Every sovereign state has the right to control their borders!

It would be nice, but it won't happen in the near future!

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 7:19 pm ET

CS February 2nd, 2009 2119 GMT

And another thing. This is what I mean about the biased media…

CS,

Why is it that the media coverage is so biased??? Why is it that the Arab world fails to have their voices heard? Or, may better question— Why is it that the rest of the world fails to listen to the plight of the oppressed Arabs???

I’m serious—– I’m not joking with these questions.

How is it that the collective Arab world continues to fail in it’s ability to gain the respect it so desperately wants from the rest of the world?? Why??

******************************************************

CS,

You failed respond to my questions yesterdy. Since you've had time to think about it-– do have any answers or opinions??

CS   February 3rd, 2009 7:26 pm ET

Carlos makes a good point. The U.S. allows immigrants to enter from Canada, and Mexico, pretty much anywhere, if they go through the proper chanels to citizenship (unless you're a politicians gardener or nany, or of course some big shot athlete). On the other hand, just cause I'm an American does'nt mean I think our way is best, and should be the international model. But I beleive that in light of recent interference from U.N., and the history of violence thereafter, Palestinians should be allowed to reclaim the land they were pushed off 60yrs ago (land which some Palestinians still ACTUALLY have deeds and papers to) AND Israelis should be able to flourish as well.

But you see, if things were done to level the playing field, than "higher societies" would have nobody to look down their noses at. There will always be a society where one must overpower the other, it's called civilization. I call itthe hypocracy of democracy.

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 7:26 pm ET

Sam The Peace Activist February 3rd, 2009 1628 GMT

"United Nation has no right under its charter to take Palestinian land and give it to someone else to establish a racist (jewish only) state."

Sam The Peace Activist,

Sorry to disagree!

You should should take the time to read the UN Charter and educate yourself! Specifically where it covers "land under mandate subsequent to WWII".

That way you won't look so foolish when you post things on a public blog!

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 7:38 pm ET

CS

Sorry you were confused by my statement-– "The borders between the US, Mexico and Canada are controlled."

Please let me clarify!-- The borders are contolled by US Immigration. Only those with appropriate documentation are permitted to enter the country. US Immigration policy dictates who can qualify for entry. Every sovriegn state has the right to establish the rules governing immigaration.

My point is:

Your comment about opening the borders of Israel and letting everyone roam free is totally absurd!

That is not even the case between the Canada, The US and Mexico !

CS   February 3rd, 2009 7:42 pm ET

Carlos. To answer your question of why the Arab world fails to gain respect...I truely don't know. I know what I suspect, but to be fair, I am not at the top of the food chain, so I don't know for sure.

I truely beleive that the media is controlled by the leaders of nations. Why else would obsurd explanations be made by the media on behalf of some entity who is SUPPOSEDLY not connected to the media?
As a kid, I knew there was something wrong with all the assasinations that I read about from the Kennedy's to Malcolm X.
I thought that it was a little coincidental that the good princess D. was "accidentally" killed, in light of her love for a Musilim gent. All the terrible reporting done on the recent Gaza crisis. The way the Afghanistan war was forgotten, to give Bush's illegal Iraq war the coverage. The powers that be know the power of the media, and the television. They know they can get masses of people to believe what THEY want them to, just by putting it on TV. I had a woman try to tell me that Greek mythology was to be taken as actual events, because of what she once saw in a movie. People are sheep. I call them sheeple. They eat whatever is put before them. No questions asked.
And those of us who question authority, who ask questions about what is given by the powers that be, we are made out to be trouble makers.

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 7:44 pm ET

CS,

Those "Palestinians should be allowed to reclaim the land they were pushed off 60yrs ago (land which some Palestinians still ACTUALLY have deeds and papers to)"

And what governing authority would have or did create and issue these deeds and papers to the Palestininas????

Great Britain???? Who??

CS   February 3rd, 2009 7:48 pm ET

As an American, I can tell you, that if you're important, if you're going to make money, or entertainment, if you're going to be productive, and not make too much noise, you can come in. Not legitimately, but tell that to the huge immigrant population here. Are you aware of draft dodgers? People who left here to flea to Canada to avoid Vietnam?
Everything is relative my friend.

CS   February 3rd, 2009 7:54 pm ET

Carlos. Are you not aware that in 1948, the Palestinians were forced off their land by the U.N. and European Jews with the help of the U.S?
People once lived there. They were called Palestinioans. Before Israel was born on the map, just 60 short years ago, Palestinians were evicted from the land they had previously inhabited for over 1200 years. It was the U.N. who screwed things up. Istead of giving out food rations to Palestine, they should be giving them real help.

give a boy a fish, and he is full today. Teach a boy to fish, and he eats for a lifetime.

CS   February 3rd, 2009 8:00 pm ET

Anyway. This is supposed to be about relations between Israel and Turkey. Besides, talking about the past will get us nowhere, even thogh we all know what really happened. I try to stay on the topic of the day, but every now and again, I get sucked into one of these debates about who was where first, and it is unproductive. The truth should be told, but a solution to good Islamic/Semite relations is not through arguing over passed offenses. Would an appology, and amends be a good start? Yes. Will we eversee Israel admitt wrongdoing or mistakes? Probably not. Not this bunch anyway. Maybe in the future.

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 8:04 pm ET

CS,

So, there is no need to blame the Jews or the Israelis for receiving favoritism in the news media.

If the Arab countries expect to be treated with respect they need to earn it. Or, they need to assert control or dominance over the media. The issue most people spout off about is the fact that most news media is owned by Jews. Well, whose fault is that for the Arabs being left out in the cold?? It's no ones fault but their own! The Arabs certainly have the wealth by which to dominate the media, take control. But for some reason, they've simply chosen not. They've never made the effort to establish a presence in the media. Whereas the jews have made huge inroads to infiltrate US politics through lobbying, AIPPAC- The Arabs have done nothing! Yet they'll whine and cry because their voices are not heard. Well, I'm sorry, but they simply spend all of their efforts fighting among themselves that they fail to come forward and speak with one voice. The Palestinian factions are killing each other and arguing between themselves and connot come to agreement on who is in control! Give me a break, thes rest of the world is waiting on them to decide who should be the negotiating authority to move forward with peace process. The Arab League can't agree on anything among themselves. What a joke!

The rest of the world will show them repect and listen to them when they decide to speak with one authoritatve voice.

They need not whine and cry because the media is biased--they need to do something about it!

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 8:27 pm ET

CS,

I'm fully aware of history!

Your statement-Those “Palestinians should be allowed to reclaim the land they were pushed off 60yrs ago (land which some Palestinians still ACTUALLY have deeds and papers to)”--- I simply wanted to know------what governing authority would have or did create and issue these deeds and papers to the Palestininas????

Great Britain???? Who??

Great Britain was the governing authority who developed the plan in Resolution 181 in conjunction with the UN.

It looks to me like the land was tranferred according to international laws at the time.

Since you live in the US, I think you have such rules or laws called "immenent domain", or something like that. That gives the government the power and authority to take possesion of private property for the betterment of the state or country. This is quite similar to what ocurred as a result of the UN and Great Britains' decision.

Sam   February 3rd, 2009 10:24 pm ET

Carlos,

Your comparing this to "immenent domain" is absured. That how immenent domain work? Left Palestinians living in refugee camps for the past 60 years? Without any compensation from the so caled government who did that to them?

We are going to form a new government and we are going to take your land and give it to the Palestinian refugees under this laws how would you feel about that?

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 11:00 pm ET

NEWS FLASH

HAMAS AND THE UN LIED.......

The United Nations today reversed its stance on one of the most contentious and bloody incidents of the recent Israel Defense Forces operation in Gaza, saying that an IDF mortar strike that killed 43 people on January 6 did not hit one of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency schools after all.

It seems that the UN has been under pressure to put the record straight after doubts arose that the school had actually been targeted. Maxwell Gaylord, the UN humanitarian coordinator in Jerusalem, said Monday that the IDF mortar shells fell in the street near the compound, and not on the compound itself.

Gaylord said that the UN "would like to clarify that the shelling and all of the fatalities took place outside and not inside the school."

UNRWA, an agency whose sole purpose is to work with Palestinian refugees, said in response Tuesday that it had maintained from the day of attack that the wounded were inside of the school compound. UNRWA said that the source of the mistake in recent weeks had originated with a separate branch of the United Nations.

Amazing what comes out when the details are investigated!!

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 11:29 pm ET

Sam--

How does it work????

Once agin-Your statement—Those “Palestinians should be allowed to reclaim the land they were pushed off 60yrs ago (land which some Palestinians still ACTUALLY have deeds and papers to)”——- I simply wanted to know——————what governing authority would have or did create and issue these deeds and papers to the Palestinians????

Great Britain???? Who?? Since I have asked this twice before with no anwer, I guess I should take as -- you don't have one!

From what I have read of the UN Charter and Resolution 181, the governing powers at the time acted according to the authority they had according to international law!

Additionally-- it wasn't Israel who rounded up the Palestininans, created the refugee camps and imprisoned them-- I was the Egyptians, the Jordainians, the Syrians and the Lebanese. So if there is anyone to blame for them being where they are, it certainly isn't the Israelis.

UN Resolution 181 provided for the creation of and Arab State-– what happened to it???

John Hutchins   February 3rd, 2009 11:40 pm ET

The Hamas group and the PLO are not getting along. Looks like the PLO wants to create peace and in a peaceful way, not by violence as Hamas and its supporters like. As long as Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and supporters of Jihad against Israel are pushing Hamas and the other militant factions against Israel, peace will never come to the poor Palestinian people. The Palestinian people should be just as angry towards Hamas and other militant factions and their supporters as they are against Israel. Hamas really isn't a factor anymore, but all the support against Israel is. Israel needs to not even worry about Hamas because they can not harm Israel at all except for lobbing rockets and suicide bombers. They kill a few here and there, but really are not a threat. But boy, are they dumb, to keep antagonizing Israel. They know that Israel is going to respond, that is why they do it. But in the end the only thing that results is Palestinian civilians getting killed, their homes destroyed, and their livelihoods destroyed. We can sit here all day long and say its the occupation stupid, or it is because Israel is suppressing so many Palestinians, etc, etc, etc. But none of these excuses will cause the Palestinians and the Israelis to live side by side in peace. Lets quit giving the excuses of why not and start giving the reasons of getting peace now between all humans. Quit living in the past and start living for a peaceful future without judging anything that has happened in the past.

Carlos   February 3rd, 2009 11:48 pm ET

Sam, The Human Rights Activist !!!

Sorry-- my mistake on the previous post. I mistook your response as one from CS.

But, he didn't seem to be able to explain his claims from a previous post. So, I just believe he that he can't.

But if you know what he was talking about, feel free to explain!

Sam   February 4th, 2009 12:08 am ET

Carlos,

I am not a Palestinian nor do I live or lived in the past in Palestine nor my parents are Palestinians.... I have stated that many times.... and still everyone talks to me as i am one... I would be honored belive me to be one but i am not. I never owned a house there nor do I have title or a deed for one. I know several of my friends here in the US who are Palestinians and have showed me the title/deed to their home and or land. So, yes I know they exist I've seen them in my eyes and held them in my hands. The issuing authorities were Palestinian municipalities.

If I took my neighbor car and gave it to you.... do you think my neighbor would not have the right to go to you and take his car back? If he has the title? Try that in the US and see what happens. :)

Sam   February 4th, 2009 12:15 am ET

John,

Are you blind or an idiot?

Hamas just came into existence few years ago.... The Palestinians have been suffering under the Israeli occupation for 60 years.... Israhell will always try to find someone to blame for not giving the Palestinians their rights.... becuase Israhell does not want to admit its mistakes and take responsibility.

Sam   February 4th, 2009 12:23 am ET

John and Carlos,

Check out what this Jewish MP is saying and tell me what do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 12:46 am ET

Sam, The Human Rights Activist

Where did I ever refer to you as a Palestinian???

You are too funny!!!

You actually try to make some kind of claim that you are an appointed authority like the United Nations and The UK who has the authority make decsions based on property rights! Please can't you do any better than that.

If you choose to believe that the neither the UN nor the The UK, being the Governing Authority of the Palsetinian Territories, did not have the legal right to do so, then so be it. But the rest of the world, other than the Palestinians accept it.

FYI-– there never has been a Palestinian Governmental Authority- ever! So your claim is absolute BS!! --IF your friends actually have any such documents, they ONLY could have been issued by The United Kingdom-– and your freinds would have to be really really old!! And these papers would have become null and void as a result of UN Resolution 181!

Sam   February 4th, 2009 1:02 am ET

Carlos,

you were asking me about my title or deed that means you were saying that I am a Palestinian.

I have not appointed myself to anything.

The UK was an occupying power of a land that does not belong to it... do it cannot give it away to anyone legally.

Just like the US would not have legally a right to give Iraq now to the Kurds and kick out the rest of the Iraqis out of it.

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 1:02 am ET

Sam The Human Rights Activist,

FYI -– Hamas was founded in 1987-– 22 years ago! But what does that have to do with anything???

The Palestinians have not been under Israeli occupation for 60 years- Starting in 1948 they were occupied by Egypt and Jordan. It wasn't until 1967 that the Israeli's took Gaza from Egypt and the West Bank from Jordan.

You need to study your history before start spouting off about stuff!!

But I can see your nothing more than the typical radical sympathizer that just resorts to name calling when faced with the truth which is different than you accept it to be.

Face it- the UN and Great Britain made a decision in 1947 about the future of the Palestinian Territories. Israel accepted the decision and created the State of Israel. The Arab population didn't accept the decision and the results have -- No State of Palestine!!!

It has nothing to do with -"Israhell will always try to find someone to blame for not giving the Palestinians their rights"

Whose fault is that???? You keep spewing that it's Israels' fault!! Once again, go take a history course

Sam   February 4th, 2009 1:05 am ET

Carlos,

do you own a house right now? Do you have a title or a deed in your hand?

Sam   February 4th, 2009 1:13 am ET

Carlos,

How can Israhell accepts the decision of UN and UK in 1947 when there was not an entity called Israhell at that time?

I think you need to go back and study some history.

Palestine was for the Palestinians in 1947 it did not belong to UK nor to UN to give it away. UK was an occupier and when they leave the land they have to leave it to its rightful owner and not pass it one with the Belfor promise to the European Immigrant Jews to establish a homeland for them on Palestine. UN certainly did not own the land either to give it away. And no one will accept a UN decision to take their land and give it to someone else... but if that happes to me I will be fighting who is occupying my land and not the UN who gave it away.

Sam   February 4th, 2009 1:17 am ET

Carlos,

so I am a typical radical sympathizer?.... I thought you do not resort to name calling?.... but i guess you are just like the rest of the zionists.

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 1:21 am ET

Sam,

No, I previously posted to you and said that was a mistake-- It should have been posted to CS.

The British Mandate of Palestine drafted by the League of Nations after WWI provided for Great Britain to take possesion of the Palestinian Territories-- making Great Britain the authoritative governing power.

The UN Charter specifically address the situation of "territories under mandate subsequent to WWII". If you take the time to read the UN Charter and UN Resolution 181, you will find it is quite clear by what authority the UN, it's member nations and Great Britain did what they did with UN Resolution 181.

Your claim about Iraq is just simply lame-- there is no US claim to Iraq as a possession, nor has there ever been.

Sam   February 4th, 2009 1:32 am ET

Carlos,

And who the fuck gave the League of Nations to take someone's land and make it someone else's possession just like that. You can keep going around and around but your claims are still not making any sense. No one can take someone property and give it to someone else.... Thats called steeling in all the books.

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 1:33 am ET

Sam,

Yes I do own a home and the documents are issued by the governmental agency of a soverign state– The Republic of Portugal.

Palestine has never been a soveriegn state, country or republic-ever!!! It has never been anything more than a territory under possession. It was apart of the Ottoman Empire before being awarded to the United Kindom under the British Mandate of Palestine as a result of WWI.

Read up on the British Mandate of Palestine. It may help clear up your confusion.

You and I can argue this all night long, but fact is in the eyes of international law, the League of Nations and then the UN-- the decisions were made and this is where we are!

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 1:37 am ET

Sam,

War is hell- especially when you loose!

Like I said-–You and I can argue this all night long, but fact is in the eyes of international law, the League of Nations and then the UN—- the decisions were made and this is where we are!

The Palestinians simply need to work toward accepting what they were originally given in UN Resolution 181-- an Arab State! Because the Israelis aren't going anywhere!

Sam   February 4th, 2009 1:48 am ET

Carlos,

you can dream that all what you want.... but the fact is all occupations in the history are gone with the wind.... And this one is going just like the rest of them. Its just a matter of time. Israel came and gone before and it will go to no return this last time. I know the population of Israel know this fact thats why they all carry dual citizenships and they own properties in europe and the US getting ready for that moment. Justice is coming to the Palestinians.

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 1:58 am ET

Sam,

You're smokin' something!

I'm sure Hamas and there rockets are just going to kick a$$.

Every time since 1948, that the Palestinians have tried to do anything, they've ended up on the losing end of the stick and have less now than they were given in 1948. The should just quit before they get farther behind. None of the Arab brothers will support them! Iran just gives them those NFG rockets so that the Hamas can continue to bite the ankles of the Pit Bull until the Pit Bull decides to slam the hammer on the head of Hamas. No one else is going to help them-- Syria is scared to touch it. No one else will go near it- that's been quite obvious. Hamas is simply on their own-- and they simply have no power to do anything!

GLeigh   February 4th, 2009 2:28 am ET

Sam – When you asked Harvey if he was a woman or an animal, you instantly got on my list. Not that it matters in the least. Just so you know. I'm a very direct person. Today I went a few places. Nice men opened doors for me. I thanked them. My husband asked my opinion on a few things. My son, in another state, called to ask which job offer he should take because he graduates college on May 16th and has to decide. We talked about it awhile. I had friends over, but they understood. Some people are respectful. Some people are just violent.

GLeigh   February 4th, 2009 2:33 am ET

You can shoot rockets, and I do not excuse them because they "home made" all you want. Israel is a country. It has a right to exist. I hope Gaza people have a good life and factories and produce and support themselves. Build a factory instead of a bomb. It actually works out pretty good.

GLeigh   February 4th, 2009 2:35 am ET

Being productive, feeding the needy, hoping mankind is allowed to live peacefully and not be ruled by fear. If you want world respect – go for it. It takes work, not playing around with bombs.

GLeigh   February 4th, 2009 2:36 am ET

Years of work. Not days or months or a couple of years. Want to know how to get respect? Work for it.

John Hutchins   February 4th, 2009 3:19 am ET

Sam, you are a fricken idiot for asking if I am blind or an idiot. Sam go dig a hole and hide behind your wife and then blame me for trying to beat the crap out of you. Sound Familiar? Your attitude is the exact same as Hamas. Like I said, forget the past, work for the future. If you keep bringing up the past, nothing is going to change. You ideas are all washed up, they are non relevant. Only thing that is relevant is peace! Taking pot shots at somebody just creates response. Response gives people the excuse to blame, but it sure is funny nobody wants to take the reins and quit all the violence and make concessions to live in peace. Hamas keeps the violence going. Believe it or not! It isn't the occupation stupid!

GLeigh   February 4th, 2009 3:38 am ET

The Arab countries have been empowered with much oil to run their factories – China should be so lucky. I hope everyone feels lucky because we all have something to contribute. The U.S. farms about six percent of its land, I only know a couple of farmers, but we feed ourselves and about that many other people. We just need to learn to accept each others' strengths and become creators and producers instead of destroyers.

Debra   February 4th, 2009 6:44 am ET

John Hutchins and GLeigh, I couldn't have said it any better. You both are so right. I do think if less attention was given to Hamas and what they were doing, would eventually fade away. The media is giving them what they want. I feel sorry for the people living in Gaza. I just hope one day soon all this conflict will stop. Pray for peace!

benyemen   February 4th, 2009 8:03 am ET

CARLOS,

THE ARABS YOU TALK ABOUT IN ASRAEL ARE THERE TO PROVE ISRAEL IS THE ONLY DEMOCRATIC STATE IN THE REGION, BUT IN ACTUAL THEY CANNOT MOVE A FEATHER, ALSO SEE A POST FROM YOUR OWN:

HARVEY WROTE:
February 3rd, 2009 1455 GMT
In actual fact Israel is home to us Jews. Whether we are from Ethiopia, England, Russia, Yemen, Syria, Germany etc etc….Its the one place where we don’t need to worry about being persecuted by the country playing host to us. basically ‘cos its our country. One small place the approximate size of New Jersey where we are in control of our own destiny.

And frankly you can condemn us, you can sit on the sidelines, you can spout as much rhetoric as you want, but we ain’t going nowhere. This small scrap of land is ours and though we are willing to make terretorial concessions to gain peace and though we wish with all our hearts for a two state solution…we ain’t gonna put our destiny in anybody else’s hands. Israel is the home for the Jews, just like England is the home for th English and Turkey is the home for the Turks…if you want to condemn all nationalism as racist go ahead, but just to confirm jewish nationalism (zionism) as racist seems, well rather racist.

CARLOS ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO AGREE WITH YOU 100% ABOUT YOUR COMMENT BELOW:

CARLOS WROTE:
February 3rd, 2009 2004 GMT

CS,

So, there is no need to blame the Jews or the Israelis for receiving favoritism in the news media.

If the Arab countries expect to be treated with respect they need to earn it. Or, they need to assert control or dominance over the media. The issue most people spout off about is the fact that most news media is owned by Jews. Well, whose fault is that for the Arabs being left out in the cold?? It’s no ones fault but their own! The Arabs certainly have the wealth by which to dominate the media, take control. But for some reason, they’ve simply chosen not. They’ve never made the effort to establish a presence in the media. Whereas the jews have made huge inroads to infiltrate US politics through lobbying, AIPPAC— The Arabs have done nothing! Yet they’ll whine and cry because their voices are not heard. Well, I’m sorry, but they simply spend all of their efforts fighting among themselves that they fail to come forward and speak with one voice. The Palestinian factions are killing each other and arguing between themselves and connot come to agreement on who is in control! Give me a break, thes rest of the world is waiting on them to decide who should be the negotiating authority to move forward with peace process. The Arab League can’t agree on anything among themselves. What a joke!

The rest of the world will show them repect and listen to them when they decide to speak with one authoritatve voice.

They need not whine and cry because the media is biased—-they need to do something about it!

AS FOR LAND OWNERSHIP YOU DISCUSS WITH SAM ABOUT READ THE FOLLOWING WISE MEN COMMENTS BELOW:

“We consider ourselves to be comrades in arms to the Palestinian Arabs in their struggle for the liberation of Palestine. There is not a single citizen in South Africa who is not ready to stand by his Palestinian brothers in their legitimate fight against the Zionist racists.” — Nelson Mandela

“I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical consideration, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain — especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state.” — Albert Einstein, 1932.

“My sympathies are all with the Jews…But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me…Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.” — Gandhi, 1938

ANOTHER PERSONAL QUESTION CARLOS ARE YOU A PORTUGAL JEW? PORTUGAL CHRISTIAN? OR JUST A JEW OR A CHRISTIAN.

benyemen   February 4th, 2009 8:39 am ET

ALL BLOGGERS,

CARLOS SAID HAMAS SHOULD LEARN HOW TO SELECT FRIENDS.

TELL ME WHO IS YOUR FRIEND AND I WILL TELL YOU WHO YOU ARE.

IF YOU BEFRIEND A CROOK, YOU WILL END UP A CROOK.
IF YOU BEFRIEND A HOOKER, YOU WILL END UP A HOOKER.
IF YOU BEFRIEND A SCHOLAR, YOU WILL END UP A SCHOLAR.

ISRAEL BEFRIENDED AMERICA, SO THEY BECAME ARROGANT, POWERFUL, TAKING UNITERAL DECISIONS, EITHER THE WORLD SHOULD BE WITH THEM OR AGAINST THEM, OCCUPING OTHER PEOPLES COUNTRIES, CHANGING GOVERNMENTS AND PRESIDENTS OF ANY COUNTRY, LABELING WHO IS AGAINST THEIR INTERESTS TERRORISTS, UNDEMOCRATIC, ANTISEMETIC ETC...JUST LIKE PAST AND BUSHES AMERICA. (HOPING OBAMA'S AMERICA WILL BE DIFFERENT). ALTHOUGH I SUSPECT SUCH SUDDEN CHANGE OR AT LEAST EARLY CHANGE.

HAMAS BEFRIENDED IRAN (UNFORTUNATELY VERY RECENTLY), SO THEY ARE TERRORIST, UNBINDING TO UN BODIES RESOLUTIONS, UNBINDING TO NUCLEAR'S BODY ORGANISATION FOR SEARCHES OF THEIR NUCLEAR FACILITIES, A ROGUE STATE, AN AXIS OF EVIL, RESISTANCE FORCES BACKER, AND WEAPONS SUPPLIER, NUCLEAR POWER SEEKER, SATTELITE LAUNCHER...SO THEY WILL BECOME JUST LIKE IRAN.....

IS THE ABOVE LOGIC?

benyemen   February 4th, 2009 8:51 am ET

OOOPS SORRY PEOPLE,

I FORGOT ANOTHER IMPORTANT EXAMPLE OF FRIENDS.

BEFRIEND SHEIKH OSAMA BENLADIN AND YOU ARE A TERRORIST MUSLIM, EXTREMIST MUSLIM, BAD MUSLIM PERSON, COWARD MUSLIM, IDEOLOGY MUSLIM, ALGAEDA MEMBER JUST LIKE SHEIKH OSAMA BEN LADIN IS PER AMERICA AND WHO ARE WITH THEM STANDARDS.

benyemen   February 4th, 2009 9:13 am ET

PROFESSOR, OR ANYONE...

DOESN'T THE TALMUD OR TORAH OR WHATEVER IT IS CALLED (THE JEWISH RELIGION BOOK) STATE OR SPECIFY THAT "THE END GOAL OR TARGET JUSTIFY THE MEANS USED TO REACH IT".

benyemen   February 4th, 2009 9:26 am ET

DEAR OCCUPIERS....

ALGERIA HAVE BEEN OCCUPIED FOR 130 YEARS,

THE ALGERIANS DIDN’T SAY IT’S A LOSING BATTLE AGAINST FRANCE WHEN THERE WERE OVER 2 MILLION FRENCH SETTLERS IN ALGERIA THEY LOST OVER 1.5 MILLION MARTYRS BUT WON THEIR COUNTRY FROM THE OCCUPIERS.

THE BLACKS IN SOUTH AFRICA DIDN’T SAY IT’S A LOSING BATTLE WITH THE WHITE SETTLERS THEY FOUGHT AND WON THEIR COUNTRY FROM WHITE SETTLERS.

AND IMAGINE SOUTH AFRICA IN SIZE, DEVELOPMENT, INDUSTRIAL, WEALTH, ETC……..COMPARED TO ISRAEL

harvey   February 4th, 2009 9:47 am ET

Just logged on, Good morning. Peace to everybody.

Benyemen, the torah does not state anywhere that "the ends justify the means". When you quote, please quote accurately and please proide your source. Succinct points would help as well rather than just rantings....

Thanks

Sam   February 4th, 2009 9:47 am ET

Before Hamas came into existence Israhell has been systimatically killing Palestinians and destroying their home and farms that is well documents.

I Hamas to stop firing rockets.... then what?..... Israhell will continue its systimatic abuse.... who are you going to blame then?

Sam   February 4th, 2009 9:57 am ET

Benyemen,

I do not you can find the phrase "The End Justify the means" but its certainly the teachings of the Talmud.

harvey   February 4th, 2009 10:04 am ET

Sam,

Please provide your sources. Just beciase you say something is well documented it doesn't mean it is.

Just a few facts for you....

Since 196 in Gaza when the israelis won the land from Egypt, the population was 360,000. After Israel withdrew totally from Gaza in 2005, it was estimated at 1.4 million.

Would that the Jewish population under Nazi rule had quadrupled!

When Israel entered Gaza in 1967, life expectancy for women was 46. When it left Gaza, it was 73.

So if we wanted to systematically wipe out the Palestinians we did a pretty crappy job.

And for your information, all we want is for the Palestinians to start building their own state in Gaza. Thats why we withdrew in 2005. Border crossings were open.

Truth is hamas find it easier to blame Israel rather than build its own country and look after its people.

.

Sam   February 4th, 2009 10:07 am ET

Benyemen,

As long as there is resistence to the occupation... then occupation cannot last for ever. Only when you forget the resistance then occupation will continue.

For an Obama or any human being to resolve the issue for the Palestinian is an insanity... Only the Palestinian resistance can solve the Palestinian problem. It would help to get the Arab neighbors support but the Palestinians have to rely on themselves to get it done.

I have not seen it done in the history of the Palestinian resistance until just now. I think the Palestinians refugees realized that finally and said enough is enough. I think they are doing a tremendous job.

harvey   February 4th, 2009 10:09 am ET

Sam and Benyemen,

There is as much basis for you guys telling everybody that the end justifies the means is from the torak or talmud as me saying that the tale of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves is the second chapter in the Koran.

You guys are speaking nonsense...please if you are going to quote, do it accurately. Otherwise its just drivel....

Sam   February 4th, 2009 10:12 am ET

Harvey,

Are you blind to the Israeli Human Rights organizations who documented all the Israeli abuse to the Palestinians over the years? If you cannot read their reports then you do not belong here... Go check out Rabbis for Human Rights and B'Tslem and Peace now website for a start and when you are done I will give you some more.

I can give you a source after source but if you do not want to read them then you are just wasting my time.

harvey   February 4th, 2009 10:14 am ET

Hamas is doing a fine job kneecapping and bullying its own people. Mind you Fatah are at it as well.
So much for "tremendous job"....
Please see below from yesterday's news. Sources Associated Press

Gaza hospital medics walk out to protest abduction, shooting of doctor

By The Associated Press

Medics at a northern Gaza Strip hospital walked off their jobs for a few hours Saturday to protest the kidnapping and kneecapping of a doctor by Palestinian militants, the first physician targeted in months of deadly infighting.

Dr. Fayez al-Barrawi, a known Hamas supporter, was blindfolded, handcuffed and shot six times in the legs, including a kneecap, and then tossed on the street Thursday.

Hamas has said Fatah militants were behind the kidnapping. Al-Barrawi worked at Beit Hanoun hospital in the northern Gaza Strip, close to the border with Israel.

Advertisement

Hundreds of Hamas and Fatah supporters have been kidnapped in recent months by rival gunmen. The treatment of the hostages, who are usually released after a few hours, has become increasingly harsh, and captives are often shot in the legs.

It is the first time a doctor was seized. However, militants often fire on paramedics and ambulances during gun battles.

"We strongly condemn that medical officials should be the victims of security chaos," said hospital director Jamil Suleiman, in a statement faxed to The Associated Press.

Medical institutions are often unwilling parties to the conflict. Hospitals in areas of militant strongholds often only treat parties from one side of the conflict, to ensure tensions do not break out in the hospital itself.

Militants have also used hospital rooftops and grounds as firing points, prompting their rivals to fire upon hospitals, threatening staff and patients.

Sam   February 4th, 2009 10:15 am ET

Arabs living in Israel cannot vote.... so thats for your so called democracy....

Sam   February 4th, 2009 10:18 am ET

Harvey,

I would suggest you go back and read your own comment sources... it looks like you cut and paste without reading it yourself first.... LOL

harvey   February 4th, 2009 10:22 am ET

Sam,

I've told you before we can swap human rights atrocity stories all day.
Where do we go from here is crucial question.
I believe in working towards a 2 state solution. Maybe thats because I live here.
And have you read the link i sent you regarding the Peres organisation and the work that is donne there? Lets concentrate onn building bridges. I prefer to teach children (Arabs and Jews) how to play soccer together, it would seem you prefer to encourage them to blow eachother up.

benyemen   February 4th, 2009 10:23 am ET

HARVEY YOU SAY:

HARVEY WROTE:
February 4th, 2009 947 GMT

Benyemen, the torah does not state anywhere that “the ends justify the means”. THANKS.

SAM YOU SAY:

SAM WROTE:
February 4th, 2009 957 GMT

Benyemen,
I do not you can find the phrase “The End Justify the means” but its certainly the teachings of the Talmud. THANKS.

NOW I AM REALLY CONFUSED ARE THE TWO BOOKS MENTIONED TORAH AND TALMUD BOTH JEWISH RELIGION BOOKS? AND THEY HAVE DIFFERENT TEACHINGS OR WHAT?

harvey   February 4th, 2009 10:28 am ET

Wrong again Sam LOL

Please see below. Are you just too lazy to check your facts before you spout?

Arab citizens can vote in Israel

Arab citizens of Israel – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[13] However, as permanent residents, they are entitled to vote in .... As a result, the number of Arabs in Israel is calculated as 1413300 people or ..... to the State of Israel is often fraught with tension and can be regarded in the ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel – 416k – Cached – Similar pages

harvey   February 4th, 2009 10:32 am ET

Benyemen,

Torah is essentially the Five Books of Moses. Guess that belongs to everyone. But it is basis of Jewish Faith
Talmud is a book interpreting text of Torah written by the Rabbis and teachers of the Jews...in a nutshell!!!!

Hope this helps

benyemen   February 4th, 2009 10:35 am ET

HARVEY

I HEARD THAT "THE END JUSTIFY THE MEANS" QUOTE, IT WAS FROM A JEWISH RELIGION BOOK TEACHINGS AND POSTED IT HERE AS A QUESTION NOT AS A FACT, WANTING TO VERIFY, SEE MY SENTENCE ABOVE ABOUT THE ISSUE.

benyemen   February 4th, 2009 10:44 am ET

HARVEY

THANKS FOR CLEARING ABOUT THE BOOKS QUESTION, NOW WHAT I UNDERSTAND IS THAT IT WAS NOT IN MOSES'S FIVE BOOKS WHICH IS ALSO ALLAH'S BOOKS TO THE JEWS.

BUT IN TALMUD WHICH IS THE ENTERPRETATION OF THE SAID FIVE BOOKS BY RABBIS, WHOM IN MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THEY HAVE JUST ADDED IT.

benyemen   February 4th, 2009 10:54 am ET

HARVEY OUT OF RESPECT TO SOME OF YOUR VIEWS (EXCEPT) OF STAYING PUT IN WHAT YOU CALL ISRAEL.

I WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS YOU AS COACH HARVEY, I THINK THAT'S WHAT YOU DO? (I MEAN COACHING JEWS AND ARABS CHILDREN PLAYING SOCCER) WHAT DO YOU THINK?

benyemen   February 4th, 2009 11:00 am ET

ALSO YOU CAN ADDRESS ME AS YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY "SON OF YEMEN". ALTHOUGH MY NAME TO YOU IS BENJAMIN,(WE PRONOUNCE IT (BENYEMEN) IS THAT THE TRANSLATION OF BENJAMIN? SON OF YEMEN?

benyemen   February 4th, 2009 11:04 am ET

WILL BE BACK

I THINK I GOT SOMEHOW ADDICTED TO THIS BLOG

harvey   February 4th, 2009 2:06 pm ET

Benyemen,

I have never referred to you as "son of yemen", but if that's what you would like, no problem.

If you want to address me as Coach Harvey, that's fine too.

With respect the Talmud was finished many hundreds of years ago, so there have been no additions....

There are of course many different rabbis who interpret both the talmud and the torah differently. Perhaps this is what you are referring to.

Please accept though that the situation right now is that us Jews are here and so are the Palestinians. It would be great if we could just live together side by side in peace and help one another as opposed to trying to destroy one another....

Take care

Peace

GLeigh   February 4th, 2009 2:33 pm ET

Harvey – Thanks for dealing with my plant comment so well. Sorry though. When Sam asked about woman or animal, I got a little hacked off. Guess my sainthood isn't going to happen. Since I'm Baptists and we don't do the saint thing, not a real biggie.

harvey   February 4th, 2009 3:04 pm ET

G Leigh,

Thank you. Appreciate it. You are very kind and I always enjoy reading your posts.....if ever you come to Israel you are welcome to stay with us...

GLeigh   February 4th, 2009 3:12 pm ET

I have a relative, mother-in-law, soon going to Jordan and Israel on a trip. Not sure when. Can't keep up with that woman and she is 86. I'll tell her to look you – kidding. Her favorite country is Peru. She's gone many places, but there a lot. She was there when 911 happened eating lunch. People in the restaurant knew she was American and brought her a TV. She says they are the nicest people on earth. I don't travel much, if I can avoid it. Been to a few places. I would love to visit the holy land though.

SearchForNuance   February 4th, 2009 3:12 pm ET

The fact the Peres would reach out to Erdogan – rather than vice-versa – shows what a consummate statesman he is. Erdogan, on the other hand, resorted to thuggish intimidation.

The shrewd Erdogan understood well that his diatribe would garner him support at home, but in reality, Erdogan, or Turkey for that matter, is in no position to criticize Israel. In its conflict with Kurdish separatists, Turkey has killed many more Kurds than Israelis have killed Palestinians. And while Israel attempts to respect human life in conflict, Turkey has shown little consideration for international law in its campaign against the PKK.

GLeigh   February 4th, 2009 3:16 pm ET

Harvey – I'm southern. In Australia had pancakes and asked the waiter for butter. He looked blank and asked – what? I repeated myself. He was too polite to say anything but still looked blank. Finally my northern husband said, "butter." He said ohhhhh – I thought she was asking for batter, pancake batter. Couldn't figure it out. lolol

GLeigh   February 4th, 2009 3:25 pm ET

I do realize, on some level, that the people of Gaza are in a bad place. Their land looks like Swiss cheese, or so I've been told. That is not good. Hard decisions need to be made. Israel people might have to really compromise to makes thing more fair though I think a one state place will never work. I do think that much of the problems are generated by fear. I hear terrible stories about how this religion wants to rule the world, like Hitler, and all that stuff. Then 911 happened. That was really scary.

If we can over killing each other, then fear of each other, then working on tough answers to make everyone happy though not thrilled because not everyone can get their way, perhaps humans can produce and have long and happy, peaceful lifestyles. We need to listen more to the quiet people, not the loud ones who shout and want their way all the time. The quiet people think and want to progress. I am not condemning Hamas. No one made me judge of the world. Perhaps it took Hamas to get the world to pay attention to the plight of Gaza. Too bad Darfur has had such suffering. I hope kind people, religions, beliefs, and good people finally are noticed. Those that are bad should be ignored, whatever country or race.

harvey   February 4th, 2009 3:38 pm ET

G Leigh,

I think what you are saying is wise and fair.

I know and have written that us Israelis are not 100% right all the time. Of course we have made mistakes whether by accident, or design.We ain't perfect. But I think as a people we are willing to go that extra mile for peace....Both of us and the Palestinians have to take a long hard look at ourselves, acknowledge that both of us do not have the divine right on being right and move forward to find peace. There is a middle way. Screaming loudly though that we are right and you are wrong will get us nowhere. Finding the most extremist Jews to quote and then telling us that this is official policy is stupid and ignorant. Same as me stating that all Moslems are terrorists, they aren't...I believe that Palestinian parents ultimately want the same opportunities for their kids as us Israeli parents want for ours. Trick is to get everybody concentrated on moving forward rather than being fixated on alleged rights and wrongs of the past.

GLeigh   February 4th, 2009 3:47 pm ET

Harvey – I hope it works out. It took me decades, but I finally believe that there are just people who are evil and want violence and destruction, sadly. I hope they are not listened to – but history has shown that sometimes they are followed. Such beliefs are really hard for me, but as a female who has been confronted (attacked), and overcome, I have seen it. I do think that President Obama, who I had grave reservations about, is trying to move forward. He seems fair. He seems to want the best for everyone and admit s when other circumstances complicate things too much to make them the best such as in his cabinet choices. He seems willing to think, as hard and as complicated as the world can be. I am much more impressed today then I was when he was inaugurated. Perhaps he and his people can do something to help. If that is possible. No one will ever accuse me of being even partially African American. That has always seemed a very strange way though to judge someone's soul.

harvey   February 4th, 2009 3:52 pm ET

No problem Benyemen, no offence taken. I really don't mind being a coach or a plant or even a beautiful shop front window (just some of the nicer things I have been called on this blog). I would rather we hurl names at eachother than bullets.....Truth is us Jews and the Arabs are descended from two brothers, good if we could all start behaving a bit more brotherly towards eachother.

Peace

GLeigh   February 4th, 2009 4:09 pm ET

Harvey – when I head that Gitmo might be closed and some, a few or whatever, of the "terrorists" moved to American prisons though some are afraid of the terrorist scare people – I looked over at my husband. I said – OMG, the gangs, He laughed though he looked pained. America needs to clean up its own violent people.

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 6:36 pm ET

hello everybody
and death to zionists, kids' killers.

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 6:43 pm ET

Israel New Nazis
Dr. Hajo G. Meyer, a Nazi holocaust (Auschwitz) survivor, compared recent actions of Israel to those of Nazi, and has come up with a way to describe the Zionists as the New Nazi. He explained, he is not trying to draw parallel to holocaust.

To him, it is becoming harder and harder not to draw these actions as those of Nazis. Another MP of House of Commons, the only Jewish MP, Sir Gerald Kaufman, who has been criticizing Israel on her actions also commented in the house yesterday saying.

"Is it not an incontrovertible fact that Olmert, Livni and Barak are mass murderers and war criminals?” and Hajo said, “Kaufman is right. Every effort must now be made to bring Israel's leaders to trial.”

Source: http://www.presstv.ir

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 6:48 pm ET

benyemen,

No I'm not Jewish and do not subscribe to any relgious following. I simply have my own thoughts on spirituality. I just fail to see how some people can follow a doctrine of violence and hatred in the name of any religion!

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 6:50 pm ET

READ THIS FUNNY ARTICLE THAT SHOWS THE IDEOLOGICAL LINK BETWEEN ZIONISM AND NEO-NAZIS.

German neo-Nazis: We're pro-Israel, condemn anti-Semitism

By Ofer Aderet, Haaretz Correspondent

Tags: Nazis, Zionism, Germany

Nazis against anti-Semitism? As bizarre as that sounds, a group of Germans which calls itself "National Socialists For Israel" launched its Web site in support of Israel.

"Stop the hatred of the Jewish people," the Web site reads. "The Jews are a healthy, strong nation."

The organization – whose members have yet to reveal themselves to the public – claims that Israel's right to exist is anchored in the principles of social Darwinism, the same principles which the Nazis adopted prior to the Second World War.
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"Israel earned the right to live among the nations [after emerging] from unending wars," the group writes on the site. "Israel also has a right to exist. This nation also has culture... The nation of Israel is appreciated... It is our duty, as neo-Nazis, to defend this supreme success. Not just for the German people and the European cultural sphere, but also, especially, for Israel."

As such, "Nazis for Israel" also leveled criticism at their colleagues in the neo-Nazi National Democratic Party (NPD), calling them "politicos, cowards, and reactionaries."

"Show us proof of a Jewish plot to dominate the world," they wrote in a rare manifesto which was posted on their Web site.

These unusual statements on the internet compliment the group's other public campaigns, including the dissemination of bumper stickers. One of the stickers features a picture of Reinhard Heydrich, the senior Nazi official who chaired the Wansee Conference where the Final Solution was hatched. Underneath the photo reads: "As a Nazi, I'm a Zionist."

Another sticker shows a photo of Israel Defense Forces soldiers during the Second Lebanon War under the heading: "2,000 years of struggling to survive – respect to those worthy of it."

In terms of the group's attitude towards the Holocaust, the organization says: "We must view what is referred to as 'the Holocaust' within the context of acts of self-defense undertaken by nations under threat." It added, however, "that there is no justification for it." Instead, the Nazis ought to have supported the Zionist cause, the group states.

The group claims it held its first meeting of activists in Berlin last month. It said the meeting touched on issues ranging from "solidarity with Israel, anti-Semitism, capitalism, and Islam."

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 6:51 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi

Olá mohammed!

did you bring moses and mooshy with you??

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 6:52 pm ET

SO? YOU JUSTIFY HATRED AND VIOLENCE IN THE NAME OF POLITICS, RIGHT?

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 6:53 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi

Olá mohammed!

did you bring moses and mooshy with you??
*************************************************************************
Am I obliged to?

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 6:55 pm ET

CARLOS
What do you think about the ideological affinity between zionism and neo-nazis?

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 6:57 pm ET

Harvey,

a few days ago Sam, on this blog, claimed to me that he was a HumanRights Activists!! What a hoot!! A few posts later he was preaching death to the children of Israelis in response to the recent actions in Gaza!

Some people are simply warped!

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 6:57 pm ET

MAY BE YOU NEED SOME HELP FROM THE ZIONIST CRIMINAL BAND .

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 7:00 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, mooshy, moses

Like you said- funny article! There's idiots everywhere!

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 7:01 pm ET

CARLOS
Do you have a good salary in tnis blog? THEY TOLD ME THE MOSSAD PROVIDES GOOD SALARIES TO "PEOPLE" LIKE YOU.

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 7:03 pm ET

CARLOS GLEIGH LINDA

I HAVE ALWAYS SAID THAT NAZIS AND ZIONISTS ARE THE SAME.

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 7:08 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy

Here's the help you're getting from your brothers in Egypt!!! You can thank Hamas and Iran for their help in the situation!

What a hoot!

Egypt announced Wednesday, Feb. 4, that as of Thursday, its only border crossing with Gaza at Rafah would be closed down for all traffic,signaled the breakdown of those negotiations. Cairo gave people who entered Gaza through Rafah and wished to leave 24 hours to do so. Egypt also discontinued all humanitarian operations for the Gaza population, including care for the war wounded and sick.

Egypt finally resolved to segregate the Gaza Strip Tuesday night after discovering that Hamas was under orders from Tehran to keep the truce talks dragging on aimlessly together with daily missile and mortar fire against Israel.

CS   February 4th, 2009 7:12 pm ET

Is it true that in Israel, Arabs do not have the right to vote?

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 7:13 pm ET

WANTED FOR CRIMES AGAAIST HUMANITY.

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 7:19 pm ET

CS

No, it's not true. They have the same voting rights as any other citizen. In fact there are Arabs who hold seats in the Israeli Parliament.

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 7:22 pm ET

CARLOS
WHO HELPS YOU IN THINKING? DO YOU DO IT ALONE?

AS I TOLD YOU DAYS AGO, you suffer from real pocessing problems. you read ,but your memory fails to store. lol

i am one of the strong opponents to Mubarak and the egyptian regime.
this is not a debatable issue; we know the camps.

***************************************************************************

You can thank Hamas and Iran for their help in the situation!
************************************************************************
i dont get your point, but if you mean that we should not rely on iran, then you must be dumb.
***************************************************************************

Egypt finally resolved to segregate the Gaza Strip Tuesday night after discovering that Hamas was under orders from Tehran to keep the truce talks dragging on aimlessly together with daily missile and mortar fire against Israel.
************************************************************************
give us your sources, please.
anyway, we will stop missiles when you stop making us starve. do you have any problem with that?

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 7:25 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy

CARLOS
Do you have a good salary in tnis blog? THEY TOLD ME THE MOSSAD PROVIDES GOOD SALARIES TO “PEOPLE” LIKE YOU.

/////////////////////////////////////

Appears to me that you believe a lot of stupid sh$$t!

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 7:27 pm ET

CS

No, it’s not true. They have the same voting rights as any other citizen. In fact there are Arabs who hold seats in the Israeli Parliament.
*************************************************************************
yeah, this sis true. people in the parliament like Azmi Beshare who is now out of palestine because he freely expresses himself.
i told you before that you live in a demoncracy.

mohammed gharbawi   February 4th, 2009 7:32 pm ET

carlos
your discourse lacks evidence, my friend.

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 7:38 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy

More help from your Hamas friends!

Wednesday, Christopher Guinness, spokesman of the UN Relief and Works Agency, UNWRA, complained that Hamas police raided its warehouse in Gaza City and made off with 3,500 blankets and nearly 500 food packages that were to have been distributed to poor Gaza families. UNWRA demanded their immediate return.

AP

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 7:42 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy

More help on the way!!!

Cypriot-flagged Monchegorsk renamed Iran Hedayt held at Limassol since last week was carrying 10 containers of Iranian rockets and other weapons for rearming Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Cyprus has reported to the UN Security Council Sanctions Committee on its findings in two inspections of the vessel but has not published them.

The US navy stopped the suspect ship in the Red Sea last month and allowed to continue through the Suez Canal to the Mediterranean. Neither the US Navy nor Egypt seized the cargo.

Israel warned Nicosia that the cargo aboard, concealed in welded steel containers, contravened UN Security Council Resolution 1747 which forbids Iran to export arms under international sanctions and violates Israel's terms for accepting a Gaza ceasefire in its 22-day operation. Cyprus now awaits UN instructions.

AP

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 7:54 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy

You're too funny!

Who told you that Arab citizens of Israel are not permitted to vote???

they have the same voting rights as any other citizen– Jewish or Christian

Currentlt there are 12 Arab members of the Knesset.

Any fool can look that up and find out.

Just because you refuse to accept it doem't make it a lie!

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 8:04 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy

More humanitarian assisstance compliments of your dear friends Hamas!!

Armed Hamas policemen broke into a warehouse in Gaza City and confiscated thousands of blankets and hundreds of food packages intended for UNWRA refugees, an official from the relief and human development agency said on Wednesday.

"They took it under gunpoint," said Ging from the UNRWA headquarters in Gaza City. "My staff had resisted earlier the confiscation of the convoy, as they are absolutely instructed to do…Compliments to them for that, but unfortunately, later, they came and took it by gunpoint."

He added: "We expect to get the aid back. This aid is for the refugees, not for anybody else, not for any political parties. This aid was donated to us, through us, for the refugees, and we have to have integrity for the aid effort here in Gaza."

Responding to the theft, Welfare and Social Services Minister Isaac Herzog, who overlooks humanitarian aid in the Gaza Strip, said the incident was "further proof that Hamas is continuing to make life miserable for the population of Gaza and will use any means to intensify its suffering."

During Operation Cast Lead, Herzog said in a statement released Wednesday afternoon, "Hamas leaders worried about their own welfare and security while totally neglecting the
population."

An IDF official said the army noticed the trend already during Operation Cast Lead last month when despite the fighting, Israel transferred close to 80 trucks a day to the Strip.

Wednesday marked the first time that the UN admitted that such a theft had occurred.

Nuaf Atar, a Fatah operative captured during the operation, told the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) that Hamas government officials "took over" humanitarian aid Israel allowed in to the Gaza Strip and sold it when it was supposed to be distributed for free.

Ahmad Kurd, the Hamas official in charge of the ministry, did not deny the seizure of the aid Wednesday, charging the UN was giving the aid to local groups with ties to Hamas opponents.

AP

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 8:42 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi, moses, mooshy

Your Arab brothers in Egypt continue to blame Hamas and Iran for the death and destruction in Gaza and plight of the innocent Palestinian people.

Nice friends you've chosen!

When will you wake up???

"Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak condemned Hamas and Iran in a speech Wednesday, and hinted that Hamas was responsible for the fighting in Gaza.

Why did the resistance factions object to our attempts to prolong the ceasefire? And why did they not heed our warnings that their positions constitute an open invitation for an Israeli assault? Was this planned and deliberate? For whose benefit?" Mubarak said.

Hinting at Hamas Politburo Chief Khaled Mashaal, Mubarak said, "For how long will Arab blood be shed, only to listen to those who admit their mistakes later, because they didn't calculate Israel's response correctly; and to those who wave resistance slogans over the corpses of casualties, the ruins, and the destruction?"

"The resistance does not entail slogans that disparage the lives of casualties and that deal in the blood of the injured or the suffering of innocent civilians," he added.

Continuing his onslaught against Mashaal, the Egyptian president said, "I have stressed this before and I will say it again, the resistance must face the cost-benefit test. It must be responsible towards the nations that judge it on the merits of the benefits it has brought for their problems alongside the casualties, the pain, and the destruction it has caused."

Directing his attention to Iran, Mubarak said, "The recent crisis has exposed an attempt to exploit the Israeli aggression in order to impose a new reality on the Palestinian and Arab arena – a new reality that will stack the cards in favor of a well-known regional force, Iran, for the benefit of its plans and agenda."

He said the aim of the Islamic Republic's involvement in the conflict was "to take away the Palestinian Authority's legitimacy in order to bestow it on the factions and Hamas."

Mubarak said the proof of this was Hamas' proposal to establish an alternative authority to the PLO.

"The aim was the widening of the rift between the West Bank and Gaza. Otherwise, why are they now discussing a new Authority for the Palestinian people?" he asked.

Carlos   February 4th, 2009 8:48 pm ET

WASHINGTON – Israel did not violate the laws of war during its recent Gaza operation, a new US study says, while praising the IDF's "impressive improvements" since the war against Hizbullah in 2006.

Israel "deliberately used decisive force to enhance regional deterrence and demonstrate that it had restored its military edge," wrote Anthony H. Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "These, however, are legitimate military objectives in spite of their very real humanitarian costs."

GLeigh   February 5th, 2009 2:37 am ET

Hi Mo and Carlos. So how do two separate lands connect. In my world anything that takes more than an hour is a burden. Making a rocket – no way. Some factory does it. The world moves fast and furious and you had better keep up. Then you have folks who like the older ways. That's a real struggle I'm sure. In the end, people have to tolerate each other.

GLeigh   February 5th, 2009 3:17 am ET

Hi Mo and Carlos. All of this is challenging. I hope President Obama can be of help, and his team.


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