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Inside the Middle East
January 11, 2009
Posted: 2236 GMT

RAFAH BORDER CROSSING, Egypt (CNN) - It's golden hour - those last few moments of warm sunlight before dusk . Two pairs of Israeli F-16 fighters are wheeling overhead on repeated bombing runs over southern Gaza.

CNN's Karl Penhaul talks with Jawad Harb via Skype.
CNN's Karl Penhaul talks with Jawad Harb via Skype.

With western media banned from Gaza, we're watching from a rooftop on the Egyptian side of the border. It looks like a movie.

But Jawad Harb brings me back to earth- thanks to his laptop and an internet connection that is remarkably still up.

Harb is a Palestinian aid worker for CARE International. He's hunkered down with his wife and six children at his home in Rafah on the Gaza side. My rooftop and his home are perhaps just one kilometer apart.

After a day of trying, I manage to raise him on Skype. He's fired up his generator for a few moments with the dribble of fuel he has left.

We Skype as the bombs rain down. The tools of civilization – voice and video over internet - propel me closer to the barbarity and fear of war - right into Jawad Harb's front room.

I hear the fighter-bombers first. At near-supersonic speeds, Harb hears them seconds later. He hears the bombs explode first at the end of his street. I hear the blast seconds later as the shock wave washes over the border.

I can see the flash and plume of smoke clearly through a camera lens. Harb and his family are too scared to go outside. He calculates the distance of the explosion from his home by how much his house shakes.

All you can hear is the horrible sound of bombing, the house is shaking and the panic and the screaming from the children," he tells me.

"Everybody fears these bombings will fall on our houses and they will die in the demolition of the houses. And then there's the sound of the children crying and asking if they're going to die," he explains.

It's a war that's stripping fathers of their ability to protect their families. Harb cannot honestly tell his kids they're not going to die. Instead he tries to distract them.

I get my six children in one room and they snuggle around me like birds and I tell them stories like my mother used to tell me when I was a child. I tell them this war will come to an end soon and there will be no more killing and peace," he says.

It's a time-honored trick. This is the "Arabian Nights" Gaza-style. Each night a new story to stave off the threat of death.

"It's exactly like the Arabian nights, just like you say. One of my children asked me ‘dad why can't Ali Baba come and say the war will end in Gaza'. All he hopes for is a magic way to put an end to this violent war going on in Gaza," Harb says.

But there's no "Open Sesame", no magic word to stop the fighting and stop the bombs. And Harb says his kids have stopped believing in make-believe.

"It's hard to convince them. Another tomorrow comes and they hear the bombings and about kids being killed and about homes being demolished," he says, his voice crackling electronically over the Skype internet connection.

Our videochat goes on. Harb explains he and his family sleep in their clothes. They haven't had heating for days. When the bombing starts they open their windows. They don't want the blast waves to shatter the glass.

He also tells me their food is running desperately low.

"We rushed out to try to buy some food. We managed to get some macaroni and rice and three or four boxes of cheese," he said. "We have enough for two days but I don't know what will happen on the third day."

When the outlook is so grim just how do you say good-bye? "Stay safe, say hi to the family," I offer up, before running out of commonplaces reserved for better days.

We hang up, as more explosions rock the night.

Posted by: ,
Filed under: Gaza •Israel


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Professor   January 11th, 2009 10:41 pm ET

Long live Palestine.... Down with the occupation..... Death to the occupiers....

ahmed   January 11th, 2009 10:57 pm ET

Look when I read all these comments it tills me no wisdom at all present in the world and from my knowledge of history and the natural development, beside, Israel is like a small island in the Islamic world, so its long term survival is a real question thought history of the Islamic role Jews were protected and given there rights, a vivid example was in Spain under Islamic role when Muslim were defeated in Spain not only Muslims were tortured but also Jews were brutally tortured so they flee to morocco for the safety under Muslim role ……
I believe that Israel a state is the gravest mistake ever done by Jews so they have no more friends when history takes its natural course and who knows the next super power nation will be ….
Even with what is happening know this will make Hamas stronger and Israel will loss again …..When you under estimate your opponent you loose …. Every thing is clear
Israel wants to bring Mr. Burgothy who is in Israeli prison to power as a Palestinian leader as lots of observers predicted so he will look as a national hero, it is bitty that the west and Israel play same games … just to a waken the Giant…WE WILL SEE WHO WILL LAUGH AT THE END

Barham   January 11th, 2009 11:19 pm ET

""When the outlook is so grim just how do you say good-bye? “Stay safe, say hi to the family,” I offer up, before running out of commonplaces reserved for better days.

We hang up, as more explosions rock the night.""

This is how they are living there now, and some of us here happily defending the killing of Palestinians to continue.

American Jew   January 11th, 2009 11:43 pm ET

Sorry to see your extremist view, Barhm

There won't be anyone to laugh at this rate, Ahmed.

Moderation, folks...

Hunk   January 11th, 2009 11:43 pm ET

Barham,

I called a random number on Gaza and was able to speak but I really didn't know how to end the call .

Rod   January 11th, 2009 11:45 pm ET

Times article:

Israel’s bombardment of Gaza is not self-defence – it’s a war crime

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5488380.ece

Israel’s bombardment of Gaza is not self-defence – it’s a war crime
ISRAEL has sought to justify its military attacks on Gaza by stating that it amounts to an act of “self-defence” as recognised by Article 51, United Nations Charter. We categorically reject this contention.

The rocket attacks on Israel by Hamas deplorable as they are, do not, in terms of scale and effect amount to an armed attack entitling Israel to rely on self-defence. Under international law self-defence is an act of last resort and is subject to the customary rules of proportionality and necessity.

The killing of almost 800 Palestinians, mostly civilians, and more than 3,000 injuries, accompanied by the destruction of schools, mosques, houses, UN compounds and government buildings, which Israel has a responsibility to protect under the Fourth Geneva Convention, is not commensurate to the deaths caused by Hamas rocket fire.

For 18 months Israel had imposed an unlawful blockade on the coastal strip that brought Gazan society to the brink of collapse. In the three years after Israel’s redeployment from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. And yet in 2005-8, according to the UN, the Israeli army killed about 1,250 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children. Throughout this time the Gaza Strip remained occupied territory under international law because Israel maintained effective control over it.

Israel’s actions amount to aggression, not self-defence, not least because its assault on Gaza was unnecessary. Israel could have agreed to renew the truce with Hamas. Instead it killed 225 Palestinians on the first day of its attack. As things stand, its invasion and bombardment of Gaza amounts to collective punishment of Gaza’s 1.5m inhabitants contrary to international humanitarian and human rights law. In addition, the blockade of humanitarian relief, the destruction of civilian infrastructure, and preventing access to basic necessities such as food and fuel, are prima facie war crimes.

We condemn the firing of rockets by Hamas into Israel and suicide bombings which are also contrary to international humanitarian law and are war crimes. Israel has a right to take reasonable and proportionate means to protect its civilian population from such attacks. However, the manner and scale of its operations in Gaza amount to an act of aggression and is contrary to international law, notwithstanding the rocket attacks by Hamas.

Ian Brownlie QC, Blackstone Chambers

Mark Muller QC, Bar Human Rights Committee of England and Wales

Michael Mansfield QC and Joel Bennathan QC, Tooks Chambers

Sir Geoffrey Bindman, University College, London

Professor Richard Falk, Princeton University

Professor M Cherif Bassiouni, DePaul University, Chicago

Professor Christine Chinkin, LSE

Professor John B Quigley, Ohio State University

Professor Iain Scobbie and Victor Kattan, School of Oriental and African Studies

Professor Vera Gowlland-Debbas, Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies, Geneva

Professor Said Mahmoudi, Stockholm University

Professor Max du Plessis, University of KwaZulu-Natal, Durban

Professor Bill Bowring, Birkbeck College

Professor Joshua Castellino, Middlesex University

Professor Thomas Skouteris and Professor Michael Kagan, American University of Cairo

Professor Javaid Rehman, Brunel University

Daniel Machover, Chairman, Lawyers for Palestinian Human Rights

Dr Phoebe Okawa, Queen Mary University

John Strawson, University of East London

Dr Nisrine Abiad, British Institute of International and Comparative Law

Dr Michael Kearney, University of York

Dr Shane Darcy, National University of Ireland, Galway

Dr Michelle Burgis, University of St Andrews

Dr Niaz Shah, University of Hull

Liz Davies, Chair, Haldane Society of Socialist Lawyer

Prof Michael Lynk, The University of Western Ontario

Steve Kamlish QC and Michael Topolski QC, Tooks Chambers

Rod   January 11th, 2009 11:47 pm ET

American Jew,
I agree with you we need moderation now and I ask everyone to what what they are saying please it does not help anyones issue. so be sensitive to others so the others are sensitive to you

Akiva   January 11th, 2009 11:50 pm ET

there is still war in gaza its not over :(

troops are walking in there now :(

but we all know .... israel did lie at us ... did lie at us stright face!
all this pain there is no excuse!
nothing will bring back what is lost!

if i think about i can only cry!
endles pain to all this people in gaza!

how will israel excuse this how will israel legitimate this?

because of rockets?
where did this ockets come from ?
Gaza? Iran? Egypt? ...
they did all come from israel it self!
israel did seed the pain over Gaza with a occupation of Gaza ... with a illegal embargo over gaza ... all this rockets out of gaza come from israel it self!
maybe they did not fire them ... but israel did deny all rights of Gaza ... and these rockets were the answer
that did israel win?
peace in gaza? ... hate around the world?

nothing can bring back what is lost!

are these israelians now proud about theyr history?
do they have peace now?

troops are going now to gaza ... and the isralian women are crying in fear to loose theyr men
is that peace?

what did hapen in gaza?
genocide after a occupation ... after an ileal embargo ... that was a holocaust!
there is no excuse!
that hapened in Gaza?
humanity? human rights? international law?
cruelity... pain over pain .... white phosphours against any law!
nazi methods! fascism at al this Gazans.. lies at all of us!
how will israel bring peace now?
how they will change reality now?

israel have to face the international court of justice!
israel have to stop now imeadiatly !
israel cant bing back what is lost never!
no sorry no excuse no legitimation

the best what israel can do is give land to Gaza ... stoping all lies stoping all illegal embargos .. stoping the occupation
face the true ... face that they are nazis!

israel must go to the international court of justice!
israel should give land to the Gazans ....
and this will never bring back what is lost!
israel should pay to all the injured Gazans for life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
they cant legitimate or excuse this ever !

it is hell

israel....
still choosen by god?
choosen for what?
choosen by god to seed pain?
choosen by god to go into hell?

thre is no excuse ver no legitimation for all what happened!
is this peace now ?
humanity?
international law?

no way !

israel ... god have choosen you to go at http://www.icj-cij.org/ !
THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE!

American Jew   January 11th, 2009 11:51 pm ET

Thanks for posting the letter above, Rod

American Jew   January 11th, 2009 11:58 pm ET

Which site shall it be folks?

Wheel chair Warrior #2–otherwise known as a more moderate voice for humanity–is tired tonight and I just want to stay in one blog…

Rod   January 12th, 2009 12:05 am ET

American Jew tell the others to come here just do it os B and DP doe not come lol

Rod   January 12th, 2009 12:08 am ET

How Many Divisions?
Uri Avnery

http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

War – every war – is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one’s country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.
The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions.
An example of this process surrounds the most shocking atrocity of this war so far: the shelling of the UN Fakhura school in Jabaliya refugee camp.
Immediately after the incident became known throughout the world, the army “revealed” that Hamas fighters had been firing mortars from near the school entrance. As proof they released an aerial photo which indeed showed the school and the mortar. But within a short time the official army liar had to admit that the photo was more than a year old. In brief: a falsification.

Read the whore article American Jew Very interesting one.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:12 am ET

ok Rod

Rod   January 12th, 2009 12:15 am ET

Robert Fisk: Why do they hate the West so much, we will ask

"Have we forgotten the 17,500 dead – almost all civilians, most of them children and women – in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon; the 1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in the Sabra-Chatila massacre; the 1996 Qana massacre of 106 Lebanese civilian refugees, more than half of them children, at a UN base; the massacre of the Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by the Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter crew; the 1,000 dead of that same 2006 bombardment and Lebanese invasion, almost all of them civilians?"

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-why-do-they-hate-the-west-so-much-we-will-ask-1230046.html

The problem now we have to add Gaza 2008/2009 Very sad. we do not even know the numbers. I wonder if we will ever know

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 12:21 am ET

Rod,

Thanks for the Avnery post. I especially like

"War – every war – is the realm of lies. Whether called propaganda or psychological warfare, everybody accepts that it is right to lie for one’s country. Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor.

The trouble is that propaganda is most convincing for the propagandist himself. And after you convince yourself that a lie is the truth and falsification reality, you can no longer make rational decisions."

Rod   January 12th, 2009 12:22 am ET

Robert Fisk’s World: Wherever I go, I hear the same tired Middle East comparisons
On both sides of the Atlantic the experience has been weirdly repetitive
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fiskrsquos-world-wherever-i-go-i-hear-the-same-tired-middle-east-comparisons-1297595.html

"In Ireland, my favourite journalistic justification for this bloodbath came from my old mate Kevin Myers. "The death toll from Gaza is, of course, shocking, dreadful, unspeakable," he mourned. "Though it does not compare with the death toll amongst Israelis if Hamas had its way." Get it? The massacre in Gaza is justified because Hamas would have done the same if they could, even though they didn't do it because they couldn't. It took Fintan O'Toole, The Irish Times's resident philosopher-in-chief, to speak the unspeakable. "When does the mandate of victimhood expire?" he asked. "At what point does the Nazi genocide of Europe's Jews cease to excuse the state of Israel from the demands of international law and of common humanity?" "

Rod   January 12th, 2009 12:26 am ET

Lynne,
you are welcome. I likes it a lot this is why I posted that one
when i saw this "Anyone who speaks the truth runs the risk of being branded a traitor" I thought of my friend "American Jew" because he was Branded a traitor by the Blind pro Israeli Propagandists.
Very Sad!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:27 am ET

Im here–got a phone call.

Is this where we agree to be now?

Please confirm

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 12:28 am ET

Affirmative for me!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:29 am ET

Rod?

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 12:29 am ET

the pro Israel gang comes from germany!!!!!!!!!!
and california!!!!!!!!!!!!!

they did spread lies and had no chance with it!

they are so fool ... and full of hate
the german gang is maybe a nazi gang who was forcing the antisemitism
and the california gang are wired jews full of hate

be aware if you follow blindly!!!!!!!!!!!

Rod   January 12th, 2009 12:30 am ET

yes i am here

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:30 am ET

I closed out of theother one, so here I stay for a bit

samy   January 12th, 2009 12:31 am ET

It is like to hold a population in a big prison and then start bombing it with F16 and artillery and internationally banned gaz. This is the situation. they revenge their past in germany. this is as if a child used to be beaten in childhood; when he grows he starts beating people for no reason.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:31 am ET

Rod, you do post great stuff, yes!

Rod   January 12th, 2009 12:33 am ET

going to eat something will be back

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 12:33 am ET

yes Rod is very peace full and he did never follow blindly... he is a real person :D

i did enjoy all his liks and postings :D

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:34 am ET

Please Akiva, I am oriinally from CA, there are many Jews from A who are against this war.

Do not make blanket statements about either side.

samy   January 12th, 2009 12:34 am ET

however, I notice that cnn has started to be objective by focussing a bit on palestinians who used to be treated as persona nongrata before.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 12:35 am ET

Akiva,

Watch out! If I didn't know you better, I would be insulted. My mama's family is in Germany. I learned tolerance from both my mama and my paternal half-Irish grandma.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 12:38 am ET

American Jew
i think you are also interessted in peace...
but i also saw that the pro israel gang did trap you alot!
and there were more then one gang ... a german gang for sure and a calfornia gang also for sure
proooooofed
and the CA gang i dont tell you about them too much
but one thing is sure they are jews and second they are fuuuuuul of hate !

but i also had an eye at you and saw your not really involved to this gang :)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:39 am ET

I have a funny story to tell.

When I lived in Israel, I was on a bus sitting next to an Israeli settler.

Like Akiva–but from the opposite view–he did not think highly of CA folks either.

He said, and I quote,
"Oh California–sniff–the land of fruits and Nuts!"

I glared at him and said, "I LIKE California, where I was born!"

And he shut up the rest of the trip.

I guess my glare terrified him, the way my computer glare terrifies Dan Perman–LOL

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 12:41 am ET

Samy,

Quite interesting post if I correctly take you to mean that an abused child knows no other way except inflicting abuse on others.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:42 am ET

Very true, Samy.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:43 am ET

From my POV, I think FEAR and CONTROL are at the crux of the matter with this situation.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 12:43 am ET

Lynne
100% here was a german gang ... they did play pro israel ... maybe jews maybe german neo-nazis who did sed hate aginst jews
i dont say all people are involved ... but they did trap may people here with fake facts and psych low level shit

they gave me so much informaion that i was able to find them at other sites ... i will not discover where ... but what i saw was schocking at the claifornia side and was so simple dumb at the german side !

i dont say your in that gang
actualy i dont know and dont hink your really in this gang
and not all posters here are in any gang that is sure !

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 12:44 am ET

AJ,

I'm laughing! Here in Tejas we call CA the granolaland – fruit, flakes, and nuts. And they have some choice descriptions for Tejas. But I LOVE CA!

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 12:47 am ET

AJ,

You are so right - fear and control. BTW, did you read the Peel Commission Report we were discussing the other night (along with that of the Anglo-American Committee)?

I found a link to the text, if you want it.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:48 am ET

I no longer live there–went thru one earthquake–enough for me, so I live elsewhere now-anywhere and everywhere USA

CA is now too crowded and too expensive but yes I still love to visit!

Barham   January 12th, 2009 12:48 am ET

American Jew,
Maybe you misunderstood me, i was only commenting on the last lines of the entry article, it has a depth of meaning, read it if you like, and also im calling to end this war by being unpleased of who is defending the bombing. i dont know its an extremist view.

Hunk,
Maybe its not good to tell them take care because its not actually in their hand now, but we can still wish them happy dreams, the only thing they can offer now.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 12:49 am ET

Akiva,

Like a said, I "know" you. I took no offense. And yes, one must take care to stay out of the "low-fliers" line of fire 8)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:50 am ET

Yes, I do have it.

The book I have, 'One Country" talks exrensively about it.

They shoulda gone that way originally...

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 12:51 am ET

The slogan for Hamas is "God is it's target, the prophet is it's model,

the Qu'ran it's constitution: Jihad is it's path and death for the sake of

God is the loftiest of its wish's". Hamas states that its objective is to

support the oppressed and wronged and " to bring about justice, and

defeat injustice, in word and deed". Hamas believes that " the land of

Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (trust) cosecrated for future Muslim

generations untill Judgement Day", and as such, the land cannot be

negotiated away by any political leader. Hamas' covenent states

that "so called peaceful solutions and International confrences" are

" in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistence

Movement", stating "there is no solution for the Palestinian question

exept through Jihad".

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:53 am ET

Hi Barham,
I was reacting to the words you wrote "...happily defending the killing of Palestinians to continue."

Useless words...

Hope   January 12th, 2009 12:53 am ET

Wow.. Thank you Karl Penhaul for revealing to us, an up close encounter..the daily despair of one Gaza's family ..I have to admit, we are pretty "news sheltered" here in the US, when it comes to the human suffering inflicted on the Palestinian people. May their spirit rise above the smoky cloud of evil, and be free and triumphal of Israel's brutal 60 years occupation.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 12:54 am ET

Email can really create bigger communication problems than intended

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 12:54 am ET

Ah AJ,

Should have ... could have ... would have.

Missed opportunities do have a way of coming back and biting you in the rear, wouldn't you say, as well as contributing to the misery of a whole lot of people.

The question is, now that we've looked back, how do we use that knowledge to look forward? How do we convince others that are so full of hate that there are other solutions, when they are so unwilling to give an inch to gain a mile?

samy   January 12th, 2009 12:55 am ET

I think that israel is doing a serious mistake now. It has rejected thearab peace initiative (land occupied after 1967 and the return of refugees / full normalization with all arab countries). this is a historical offer from arabs. with the damage it has done nowand the black image it has exhibited to the world it will become very difficult to tell the world what it is best at, namely it is a victim. Now, a spalestinians have become victims of the victim, this strategy of sympathy that israel used to exploit will become null and void. Even the US SUFFERS NOW ECONOMICALLY AND NEEDS HELP. Israel should have realized that it had to fit inits direct envirnoment and stop being pain in the neck for the west.

samy   January 12th, 2009 12:58 am ET

ok

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 12:59 am ET

Sammy Israel is not a pain in the neck for the West. Israel is Americas friend.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 12:59 am ET

Thank you guys for your nice comments about me and my posts. I feel Humbled.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 1:01 am ET

Nick,

Hi!

And you are so pessimistic! The majority of Muslims, or at least the ones I know personally all over the world, do not agree with what you just posted.

If you think about it, " the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (trust) cosecrated for future Muslim generations untill Judgement Day”, and as such, the land cannot be negotiated away by any political leader" is akin to Zionists claims that Jews are God's chosen people, and as such are entitled to all of the land of milk and honey.

It is a crock, and I'm beginning to form the opinion that all forms of organized religion is a very bad thing for humankind.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 1:02 am ET

Hamas is a slight, very slight discomfort in the neck of the US not Israel

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 1:04 am ET

Hi Rod,

Did you have a good dinner?

samy   January 12th, 2009 1:04 am ET

Nick
take this canada from this name. Canada cannot tolerate israelis who kill infants and little girls to take the name of their country. Speak for yourself and go to ghaza to participate in htis crime against the humanity , to use the words of the Human Rights Watch spokesman.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 1:04 am ET

I can think of one, you know the one with 72 virgins promised if you blow yourself to bits taking out with you non-Islamic innocent people.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 1:06 am ET

until now i did read the bible and the quran
and in somewas i think i have no to read this jewish book

i did read the bible i thoght much things in the western world is based on the bible so to understand the world i got interesstet in the bible and did read it

then i got interessted in the east culture and i thoght i have to read th quran o understand them ... i fount that the quran is not so bad as any people in the west world thing

now after what happened in the world i think i also will keep a eye at this jewish book ... maybe i will understand why so much things whent wrong ?

if someno here have a good link for me with original stuff about the jewish book i am interessted... hopefull not such a propaganda online shit as many did post hre in the last time ;)

and after all i did read until now ... i was nevr religious or so .... just interessted :)

-------–
Lynne
you did never act offensive ... offnse is never good ... defense is ok ... if it will not end in a holocaust as actualy in israel... dont lt us spectaculate is that was offensive or defensive :(

but if i can say you one thing ... sure you know it allready but i wanna say it :D

allways keep yur eyes open ... never let people blind you ... inform allways yourself .. proof things ... and if not dont take it as fact....
keep as you are ... with love and peace you will gain love and peace
with the opposide you wil gain the opposide
i am happy that you are a thinking about things :)
keep thinking and keep peacefull
so your wellcome ;)

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 1:08 am ET

now look what happen ... netanyaho is speaking .... :D

Rod   January 12th, 2009 1:08 am ET

from Uri Avnery's article
I feel it talks about many of us here and around the world who condemn these atrocities:

"A person without imagination, like Barak (his election slogan: “Not a Nice Guy, but a Leader”) cannot imagine how decent people around the world react to actions like the killing of whole extended families, the destruction of houses over the heads of their inhabitants, the rows of boys and girls in white shrouds ready for burial, the reports about people bleeding to death over days because ambulances are not allowed to reach them, the killing of doctors and medics on their way to save lives, the killing of UN drivers bringing in food. The pictures of the hospitals, with the dead, the dying and the injured lying together on the floor for lack of space, have shocked the world. No argument has any force next to an image of a wounded little girl lying on the floor, twisting with pain and crying out: “Mama! Mama!” "

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 1:10 am ET

Nick,

I am a US citizen, and I can honestly say that Israel's gov't is not a friend of the US. The people of Israel may be, but the Israel's gov't is only using my country for it's own agenda. The friendship is unilateral.

Canada is the US' friend, on the other hand, but does not kiss our ...

samy   January 12th, 2009 1:10 am ET

Nick
never mix between human rights and religion. Human rights are universal while religion is a matter of culture and/or choice, but I think you don't realize that. I feel sorry for you.Sometimes ignorance kills.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:11 am ET

Sites to check out:

Jon Stewart commentary (Comedy Central)

http://www.thankyoujonstewart.com/

IDF PR War article, SF Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/10/MNGU156LEQ.DTL&tsp=1

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 1:11 am ET

Sammy
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada, the European Union, the United States, Japan, and Israel. And are banned in Jordon. Austrailia and the United Kindon only list the Military as a terrorist organization. The United States and the European Union have implemented restrictive measures against Hamas on a International level.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:12 am ET

Sites to check out:

Jon Stewart commentary (Comedy Central)

http://www.thankyoujonstewart.com/

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:12 am ET

IDF PR War article, SF Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/10/MNGU156LEQ.DTL&tsp=1

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 1:12 am ET

Rod,

Well, at least Barak is not lying in his election slogan 8)

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 1:13 am ET

You may call me ignorent go ahead but in this case you are, I'm not making this up. This is my countries official documentation on the subject.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:14 am ET

Has anyone noticed when you post a site–or rather more than one site–in one email, they moderate you?'

Big Brother is watching us!!

Joan   January 12th, 2009 1:15 am ET

Nick,

What's your position on the Hamas stuff you posted? It may be their charter / doctrine or whatever. But why would anyone take their word as worth anything.

samy   January 12th, 2009 1:15 am ET

You dont get it. Im talking about the innocent people that your IDF kills. Im not addressing a political issue here. Gaza is not a state, it is just a small area where people live. To punish a bunch of militants, you have to kill 900 civilian and wound 4000. this is absurd.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:17 am ET

Lynne,
What you wrote in response to Nick is excellent

In my opinion, Nick, you see this in too black and white terms

Joan   January 12th, 2009 1:17 am ET

I do not know why anyone gets away with using religion to justify anything. Any religion that does not denounce violence in their name can't be real. I guess that's why I don't belong to any religion.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 1:20 am ET

Joan
If Osama says he's gonna blow the nuclear power plant up tommorow in Chicago should we just not beieve him cause he's a terrorist and they lie sometimes? And not take any higher alert level?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:21 am ET

It is a human issue now, not an extremist religion issue.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:22 am ET

Yes, Joan, I agree

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 1:23 am ET

AJ,

I loved the Jon Stewart video!!! A bit of laughter amid so much sadness!

Yes, I have noticed the "disappearing" posts. Maybe "they" are paying us per piece. I think CPB's should now unionize!

Joan   January 12th, 2009 1:23 am ET

NIck,
Of course not, but what's your point?

samy   January 12th, 2009 1:23 am ET

There is one thing for sure : it seems to me that israel lives an existential crisis. It has not been able to reach ghaza cities with all this bombing; it could not achieve any objective in this war (the declared and the undeclared ones); it embarrasses the US that tries to give it time to finish the massacre and achieve at least one objective. It is fighting with ordinary men; what if it were Iran? And above all, the international community has seen the real ugly face that it has hidden for so long under the victim slogan.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 1:24 am ET

I has a good dinner thank you Lynne.

Lynne regarding your comment on religion. Islam never claimed that the land in palestine is an exclusive islamic land. Thats why there were 24%Christians at the time of the Ottoman Empire. there were many jews at that time. There is a clear evidence that the conflict is not an islamic-jewish conflict as the pro- israeli propagandist like to present it to be. The truth is that the numbers of Christians Now is less than 2%.
I really have a problem with the ignorance of the Christians rights in Israel and occupied Territories. The christian palestinians are conveniently not mentioned.
this is an article:
PALESTINIAN CHRISTLANS: CHALLENGES AND HOPES
Bernard Sabella
http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/sabella.htm

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 1:25 am ET

I'm against Hamas
I just wanted to post this so everyone stops expecting America or anyone to help, and complaining that thier not on these blogs. If an American plane was hijacked by Islamic terrorists or any terrorists for that matter, they would rather blow it out of the sky before negotiating with them, think about that.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 1:25 am ET

Certainly this crisis right now is a human issue, but it is the result of extremist religious issues, or at least ostensibly.I'm not convinced that's the real reason.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 1:26 am ET

one filled with Americans aswell

Michael   January 12th, 2009 1:26 am ET

Why instead of the Israeli army attacking the whole of GAZA don't they give the people on the Israeli side of the border a 100 or so rockets a day to shoot into GAZA as they wish.

Then the world or the UN can't say anything about it. And the retaliation is fair.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:27 am ET

LOL Lynne, I STILL haven't seen a paycheck, let's strike!!

Eric Gallion   January 12th, 2009 1:27 am ET

I find myself increasingly unable to deal with the extent of the tragedy. Just want to say that this is not in Israel's long term interests in peace.
ALso – a couple great articles, one from wall street journal, one from salon referencing Bill Moyers commentary on PBS:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/10/moyers/index.html?source=newsletter

Joan   January 12th, 2009 1:29 am ET

Nick.

Good.I can't see how anyone could agree with Hamas. It's too bad the Gazans have dug themselves into such a hole by electing Hamas. I know they didn't all vote for HAmas, and I do sympathize with all who didn't and any who regret doing so.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 1:30 am ET

Nick,

Do you really think the US would blow the plane out of the sky without even trying to negotiate ?

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 1:32 am ET

Joan
in the next election Hamas is going to win in both Gaza and the west bank.

samy   January 12th, 2009 1:33 am ET

Nick
How old are you? I need to know if you want me to continue. I have some doubts about you. sorry, im intuitive especially withthese 70 virgins you mentioned. Either you are not of age or you are retarded.lol

Professor   January 12th, 2009 1:34 am ET

Joan,

this is not an emotional reaction…. the Palestinians have tried non-violent way to fight their occupation by they still got shot at by Israeli forces… Families still lost children when the children took on the stones to fight back their oppressors… And when you have the superpower giving a green light to Israel to do as it pleases…. billion of dollars, the latest technology and weapons are given to Israel…. What else do you expect from the Palestinians to do? No matter what they did they got killed anyways…. so they better take some Israeli’s with them…. I guess thats what they are thinking…. If you talk to old and young civilian Gazan they tell you they want this fight to continue until they either win their freedom or death… becuase its better than the life they have been living.

Remember who said give me liberty or give me death?

Joan   January 12th, 2009 1:34 am ET

Solomon,

That would be a real tragedy, becasue Hamas clearly do not care about the Palestinian people.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 1:36 am ET

Ya ,
America stands by their motto as to not negotiate with terrorists by any means. If we were too start paying ransoms, it would start to become a whole lot more popular. It's the price we pay for Freedom.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 1:36 am ET

Joan,

How do you know that Hamas does or does not care about the Palestinians?

Do you have someone inside Hamas who is telling you this?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:37 am ET

i CANNOT AGREE WITH hAMAS EXTREMIST VIEWS NOR zIONIST EXTREMIST VIEWS.

As I have said before:

"The mythological idealogy of Zionism and the idealogy of extremists like Hamas MUST die out to make way for the human reality (humanity) of social justice, peace and equality for the Palestinian and Israel people."

Idealogy is death to all, whose ever it belongs too. Idealogy whether religious or secular is a huge problem.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 1:38 am ET

Rod,

I hope that I am interpreting your post correctly. I know that Islam never claimed the land in Palestine as theirs. What I quoted was from one of Nick's earlier posts concerning what Hamas believed, and why believe either claim if two different holy books gave two different peoples the right to control (AJ, love it) the land and the people.

I am familiar with the demographics of Israel/Palestine since the turn of the century (curiosity kills the cat!) According to a review of UNSCRs since 1967, many resolutions call for Israel to cease (and this is my words and interpretation) artificially manipulating the demographics of the occupied Palestinian territories. (Yes, the word occupied and occupying force is used many times).

What I do know is that everyone seemed to get along before the massive immigrations. I also know that Sharia conveys certain rights to "non-believers" and charges believers with certain responsibilities. Or at least did in the past.

See what any form of extremism does? Unfortunately, people tend to listen to extremism, whether to follow or to accuse.

I'm off to read your Sabella link now.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 1:38 am ET

Joan
was it a tragedy when Israel elected a terrorist prime Minister that was wanted dead or alive?

samy   January 12th, 2009 1:39 am ET

joan
Hamas does not expect sympathy from the west. With the harm done by the IDF? The whole arab world sympathesizes with it and despise their dictetors. Isn't that enough?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:40 am ET

Joan,
By their actions, the Israelis do not care about the Palestinians either

...it works both ways

samy   January 12th, 2009 1:41 am ET

prof
nice question

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 1:41 am ET

Nick canada.
you said you are a Canadian now you are talking as an American what are you Canadian or American?

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 1:41 am ET

Hi Solomon,

I still want that dance 8)

Professor   January 12th, 2009 1:42 am ET

Nick-Canada is just a false human being he is not American Nor Canadian.... he just a pig.

samy   January 12th, 2009 1:42 am ET

joan
Why do we have to bear your ignorance in all blogs day and night. Have mercy on yourself.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 1:43 am ET

Second to American Jew

samy   January 12th, 2009 1:45 am ET

Nick must be in ashelter in sedrot trying to relax by blogging in his laptop near his mama.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 1:45 am ET

Hi Lynne.
sure but you have to teach me. and I will teach you a Lebanese dance/

Joan   January 12th, 2009 1:47 am ET

Professor,

You said they have tries non-violent action to fight their occupation. What have they tried? And if it didn't work, why didn't they try somethng else. There are more than 2 choices. The choice is not violent vs. non-violent. It is works vs. doesn't work.

And, again, it's the objective/strategy that's wrong. Why 'fight the occupation', why not 'build a life'. When they have built themselves into a prosperous nation or group, maybe they can get their land back. I am not taking sides on the land issue. I just don't think anyone is getting anywhere this way. Why live in misery fighting a futile cause when you could improve your lives now and maybe revisit the ' cause' later.

Hamas also has the wrong objective. They will not get rid of Israel any time in our lifetimes. So why spend all their money, people's lives. and energy trying. Why not build up their nation and then maybe they can revisit the cause.

And please don't tell they can't do anything because of the blockade. That's only recent. Yes, they have to open their borders, but they are not seriously trying to do that.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:50 am ET

Professor, Are you here?

If so, there are some 'terrorists' quotes from Zionists like Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir, et al that are worse than what you previously posted.

Golda, may her memory be a blessing (to some, at least) at one time stated the Palestinians are not a people.

The Zionists pre and post 1948 were pretty awful, but now they are considered heroes.

Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder

Religious interpretations are in the eye of the beholder

History, too and ESPECIALLY, is in the eye of the beholder.

I try to see both sides...and all sides are guilty and mirrors of each other at one time or another

samy   January 12th, 2009 1:51 am ET

ok since there are peole like nick and joan here who need to study really hard to keep abreat with normal people, Ill leave. Bye.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 1:51 am ET

Joan.
.what nation should the Palestinian build?

Professor   January 12th, 2009 1:52 am ET

Joan,

Any occupation in the history was won over by fighting it back... The racist Israeli occupation is the worst in the history...

Would you accept to live as a non-human being under a racist occupation?

Professor   January 12th, 2009 1:55 am ET

AJ,

yes I am here.... do you have that quote of Golda?

I know she was aweful but I do not have that quote of her... but I have heard that being repeated by other Jews... rabbis....

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 1:55 am ET

Rod,

Thanks for the Sabella link. I have it book marked. I must reread - pretty interesting.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 1:57 am ET

Professor,

How could anyone who cares about their people act the way Hamas is acting ?

AJ,

I agree that the Israelis don't care about the Palestinians, and they should stop what they are doing, but, it is not their job to care about the PAlestinians. THey do not claim to represent them.

Solomon,

The Israelis don't need help, so I don't concern myself with them.

Samy,

'Hamas does not expect sympathy from the west. With the harm done by the IDF? The whole arab world sympathesizes with it and despise their dictetors. Isn’t that enough?'

Hasn't that a;ways been the case. What's different now???

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 1:59 am ET

Joan,

it really is not simple. You ask good questions and there is s much more here than meets the eye.

As I have 'studied' this conflict over many years, there is still so many pieces of the puzzle missing for me.

It is extremely frustrating!

It is so important to look at the parallel histories...from both perspectives!

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 2:00 am ET

I read this today I like to share it with you.

January 1, 2009
Dear Mr. President,
I did not vote for you in the Presidential Election because I am Malaysian.
But I consider myself one of your constituents because what you do or say will affect me and my country as well.
I welcome your promise for change. Certainly your country, the United States of America needs a lot of changes.
That is because America and Americans have become the most hated people in the world. Even Europeans dislike your arrogance. Yet you were once admired and liked because you freed a lot of countries from conquest and subjugation.
It is the custom on New Year's day for people to make resolutions. You must have listed your good resolutions already. But may I politely suggest that you also resolve to do the following in pursuit of Change.
1) Stop killing people. The United States is too fond of killing people in order to achieve its objectives. You call it war, but today's wars are not about professional soldiers fighting and killing each other. It is about killing people, ordinary innocent people by the hundreds of thousands. Whole countries will be devastated.
War is primitive, the cavemen's way of dealing with a problem. Stop your arms build up and your planning for future wars.
2) Stop indiscriminate support of Israeli killers with your money and your weapons. The planes and the bombs killing the people of Gaza are from you.
3) Stop applying sanctions against countries which cannot do the same against you.
In Iraq your sanctions killed 500,000 children through depriving them of medicine and food. Others were born deformed.
What have you achieved with this cruelty? Nothing except the hatred of the victims and right-thinking people.
4) Stop your scientists and researchers from inventing new and more diabolical weapons to kill more people more efficiently.
5) Stop your arms manufacturers from producing them. Stop your sales of arms to the world. It is blood money that you earn. It is un-Christian.
6) Stop trying to democratize all the countries of the world. Democracy may work for the United States but it does not always work for other countries.
Don't kill people because they are not democratic. Your crusade to democratize countries has killed more people than the authoritarian Governments which you overthrew. And you have not succeeded anyway.
7) Stop the casinos which you call financial institutions. Stop hedge funds, derivatives and currency trading. Stop banks from lending non-existent money by the billions.
Regulate and supervise your banks. Jail the miscreants who made profits from abusing the system.
8) Sign the Kyoto Protocol and other international agreements.
9) Show respect for the United Nations.
I have many other resolutions for change which I think you should consider and undertake.
But I think you have enough on your plate for this 2009th year of the Christian Era.
If you can do only a few of what I suggest, you will be remembered by the world as a great leader. Then the United States will again be the most admired nation. Your embassies will be able to take down the high fences and razor-wire coils that surround them.
May I wish you a Happy New Year and a great Presidency.
Yours Sincerely,
Dr. Mahathir bin Mohamad
(Former Prime Minister of Malaysia)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 2:01 am ET

I lived in Israel for two years, but my awareness was raised AFTER I left.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 2:01 am ET

Joan

Palestine is a own state why they shall join israel?
because you like it?
did you hear about democraty
people elect and we accept it !!!!!!!!!!
if they elect and we dont like it .... we make peace as israel?
occupie a state a country and then put a illegal embargo over it?
so that they must suffer?
and then we wonder why there come stones which turn to rockets????

thats stupid
Gaza have to join nothing because israel say it !!!!!!!!!!!
israel have to accept gaza!!!!!!!!!!
and after all this pain and illegal war israel have to pay gaza!!!!!!!!!!!

Professor   January 12th, 2009 2:01 am ET

Joan,

You are talking about Hamas and their people as if they are two different things....

These Hamas members are a large segment of the Palestinian people.....

Its like you are saying the Republican Party did not care about the Americans when Bush started his war on Iraq....

Rod   January 12th, 2009 2:02 am ET

Lynne,
I knew these were not your words. I was just making comments about the claim that it is Islamic aggression against Jews.
What impresses me is that you are so well informed.
and yes "Sharia conveys certain rights to “non-believers” and charges believers with certain responsibilities." Islam calls Christians and Jews Brothers of the book (if I remember the exact translation) same for many other minorities.
Actually some claim that Israel's Establishment of Hamas was to serve the purpose of making the conflict a religious issue.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 2:02 am ET

Joan.
and I dont the Palestinians need your help.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 2:03 am ET

Professor,

Please don't try to use history to justify things. History is just facts and events , good and bad. If everything just followed history, we'd all be living in caves.

No, I would not like to live as a non-human being. Are you saying that all Palestinians have lived as non-humans for ?? years??

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 2:03 am ET

898 death and 45% women and children ???
join israel???
are ou crazy???????

was it noth enough ??
give gaza free ... dont force a world war 3

send the head of netanyaho to gaza and tha half of israel to pay the pain ...
and the half of the jewish bank to pay the medicine !!!!!!!!!!

Joan   January 12th, 2009 2:06 am ET

Solomon.

Maybe nation was the wrong word. How about they build lives in Gaza, and on the west bank ?

Professor   January 12th, 2009 2:06 am ET

Joan,

Have you seen the wall Israel building around the Palestinians?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 2:06 am ET

I lived well there, and yes, when one actually lives there, it is very scary–on all sides

There was much I did not see.

But I did notice how in Israel media, Arabs never had a name or face...never.

I got scared and I was NO WHERE near any of the conflict–it was like living in a bubble in Herzliya.

But day and night, those war jets flew overhead, spnic booms, IDFsoldiers everywhere

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 2:06 am ET

Hi Solomon,

I have a better idea ... you teach me your Lebanese dance.

I have been furthering my education this afternoon with some research. What a beautiful, resilient country your is! I was amazed to find that there are as many UNSCRs concerning Israel and Lebanon as there were about Israel and the occupied Arab territories. Yes, the UNSC called the Palestinian territories occupied in all the resolutions starting with 242 up until the resolutions starting in 2001. Interesting that this coincides with the Bush Jr. admin.

So what words of wisdom do you have for us tonight?

Professor   January 12th, 2009 2:08 am ET

Joan,

how would you like to live in Gaza and have half of your family in the West Bank and you cannot go from one side to the other becuase of that wall?

What kind of life is that?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 2:09 am ET

demolition of Palestinian homes–constant–since 1948.
Deir Yassin and other Palestinian villages

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 2:10 am ET

Nick-Canada,

You also forget that Mashal was poisoned by the Mossad on the street of Amman, and it was King Hussein of Jordan who equated the whole peace process to the death of a 'Single Jordanian" who was Mashaal himself, it was the intervention of Clinton who demanded that Israel give the counter injunction to save his life.

Jordan at that time chose to ask for the release of Yassin the crippled man who was on Israeli prison for ten of years to be released , otherwise the king could have asked for any thing he wants but he chose to release him instead, I think that Hussien seen that Hamas will come to power and myabe wanted them to be part of the "peace process"

This is one more act of terror from Israel. for Jordan its was a very bad decision to expel them from Jordan under the present king Abdulallah.

Now they are in Syria and its good fro them.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 2:10 am ET

Solomon,

I like the letter to Obama that you posted.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 2:11 am ET

How can you build a life when Israel will not give a Palstinian a permit to build a house and if he builds a house anyways an Israeli bulldozer will level the house on its occupants heads...?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 2:12 am ET

Anyhow, I was in Israel from 1990-1992.

A pretty 'peaceful' lull at that time, but still...

Professor   January 12th, 2009 2:13 am ET

Joan,

You are talking as if you lived in a vacum.... When did you start getting involved in this conflict?

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 2:14 am ET

"Please don’t try to use history to justify things"

Joan.

that is the most sensible thing I have read from you.

Why then the Jews used history to uproot the Palestinians?

Joan   January 12th, 2009 2:14 am ET

Akiva,

I do not understand what you are saying. I don't like Isreal, but other than that I can't respond.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 2:14 am ET

Rod,

"Actually some claim that Israel’s Establishment of Hamas was to serve the purpose of making the conflict a religious issue."

Hmm, interesting. I could see how you could kill 2 birds with one stone, so to speak. Hamas to fight the PLO, and Hamas the terrorists bent on destroying Israel to get extremist Christian support in the US. Political pressure and $$ - wow! After all, it says (and I believe it is Exodus, but don't quote me - haven't read the Book in a long time) that the Hebrews are God's chosen and were given the land of milk and honey.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 2:18 am ET

Solomon,

I'm with Joan - that was a great letter.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 2:18 am ET

Professor,

I WOULD say that bush didn't care about the American people when hestarted the Iraq war. Strategicaly, it was a very stupid thing to do. Maybe he thought he cared, but obviously, he didn't think right.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 2:19 am ET

Zionism is a racist ideology..... Israel is a racist state....

I am ending my shift here with these two comments....

have a good one everybody.... except those who are supporting Israel... have a horrible terrible one.... ;)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 2:19 am ET

It is VERY complex.

I had a friend who was an Israeli Arab–they have a different 'PC' name now–uhh, is it Palestinian Israeli?–anyhow an Arab citizen of Israel.

It was like the 1950s US south! Everywhere he went, he had to show his Identity–the identity card imprisons all in Israel, if you ask me!

He was treated like a 2nd class citizen everyhere he went..and he wasa citizen.

Its a very different world for all over there!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 2:19 am ET

"given the land of milk and honey"

T make its natives as cheap labor for the boat riders coming from across the ocean and to turn it into a shooting ground on the name of the chosen....

Professor

How many were there with Moses PBUH when he crossed the sea ... its true that they were around 200 to 300.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 2:20 am ET

Joan,
I really suggest that you watch this video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589&ei=BdMbScX5OafcqAOF1NHGBw&q=occupation+101
An excellent resource to understanding the conflict.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 2:21 am ET

isael did lie all the time ...
israel did tell the west world that hamas are in a religois war
israel did never say that they did poisen in to the gaza water
did never say that the embargo over gaza was illegal
did never say that they kill civilians

and what is true?
was it a religious war?
was it humanity to poisen the water?
was it legal to put a embargo over gaza?
did they not kill civilians

898death 45% children and women!!!!!!!!!!!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 2:22 am ET

Just check out both historical perspectives–it is not black and white on either side.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 2:22 am ET

see you said Bush.... you did not say the Republican Party....

Well Hamas fighters are a wing a faction from Hamas the party....

So who are you going to blame?...

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 2:23 am ET

yeah i agree with the Prof ... a terrible night to all israelian nazis!!!!!

Joan   January 12th, 2009 2:25 am ET

Professor,
I do not live in a vacuum. You canot live in this world without being aware and having a position on the middle-east conflict. However, I will admit that in my younger years, I usually tuned out when there was news of mid-east conflict. Why, becasue it's not news, it's the status quo., and, it just goes on and on and on. When you are busy building yourlife, you don't expend enery on futility.

I listen more now because I'm retired and have more time.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 2:28 am ET

AJ,

I heard, though I don't know for fact since I've never had one, that those identity cards also have on them whether you are Jewish or non-Jewish. Do you know whether this is true?

I have a question to pose, gang. Suppose, after 911, instead of Shrub Jr. declaring you are with us or against us, the US had gone to the Muslim nations and asked for justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law, as well as taking Iran up on the offers to assist finding the people that committed the crime?

Do you think that the US' image would have improved to the extent that if we had requested, Muslim nations' could have convinced Hamas to stop the rockets?

Professor   January 12th, 2009 2:29 am ET

While you were busy building your life..... Palestinian have been loosing their lives.... their homes.... their families.... their farms....

Its the occupation Joan....

And without ridding of it the Palestinians will not have a life.

Long Live Palestine.... Down with the Occupation..... Death to the Israeli Defeated Forces.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 2:30 am ET

Lynne,

Yes it is two birds (probably more ) with one stone.

American Jew.
I hosted an Arab Israeli Family in September.
when I was taking them to the airport to drop his wife because she was leaving earlier. He was telling her what to do when she enters Israel and how the security will investigate her and what to do when they hold her for questioning. he was telling her they will try to get on your nerves and do not let them ...etc

In my mind I was thinking this is another form of terror. so I asked him do you guys have to go through that every time you travel? they responded "yes" every time on our way in and our way out.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 2:31 am ET

a funny cartoon in a Lebanese newspaper.

the Israeli soldier is shouting at the UN soldier saying dont be an anti
semite. http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=alakhbar&meta=&btnG=Google+Search

Professor   January 12th, 2009 2:31 am ET

Lynne,

It is true... even car license plate are marked so you can tell who is who.... certain license plates are not allowed on certain roads.... its a horrible life.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 2:32 am ET

Professor,

Okay, the Republicans, Bush, anyone who agreed with the war – none of them were thinking ahead, or really thinking of America's best interests. But I do think that Bush wanted the war, and he is commander-in-chief.

Rod   January 12th, 2009 2:36 am ET

Ok guys. I will leave now. Glad that you all have a very productive discussion.

Q & A on Hostilities between Israel and Hamas

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/31/q-hostilities-between-israel-and-hamas

I will leave you with this from Uri Avnery:

"So it went with the other atrocities. Every baby metamorphosed, in the act of dying, into a Hamas terrorist. Every bombed mosque instantly became a Hamas base, every apartment building an arms cache, every school a terror command post, every civilian government building a “symbol of Hamas rule”. Thus the Israeli army retained its purity as the “most moral army in the world”."

you all take care

Joan   January 12th, 2009 2:37 am ET

AJ,

You keep telling me it is complicated. Have you ever heard the expression "Beyond knowledge is simplicity", or to paraphrase, if you know what you're talking about then you can simplify it. If you tell me you think it is complicated, you are telling me you do not realy understand it.

I am not suggesting that the solution is simple. But we have to deal with reality today.

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 2:37 am ET

I have a question to pose, gang. Suppose, after 911, instead of Shrub Jr. declaring you are with us or against us, the US had gone to the Muslim nations and asked for justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law, as well as taking Iran up on the offers to assist finding the people that committed the crime?

Do you think that the US’ image would have improved to the extent that if we had requested, Muslim nations’ could have convinced Hamas to stop the rockets?

Possibly. It certainly couldn't have hurt could it?.....
Look at what most see now, and add in the question as it would have been...I don't think we'd have so much...misunderstandings.
But that would be nixed I think as I think about OUR role and the US's own policals on the scene. I think it wouldv'e taken more scholorly men to make that call. AND the US ....we do certainly indeed have a shortage of that in office.

racasel   January 12th, 2009 2:38 am ET

Should we ask Israel to let Hamas kill 800 of their citizen so it will be balanced.?.. where were you guys when Hamas were killing Israelites and even their fellow Palestinians? Why were you not saying anyting then?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 2:38 am ET

Yes, Lynne to your question...all ID cards id as Jew, Muslim, etc. It imprisons ALL-even Jews!

And yes on the searches going into and leaving Israel.

I, myself have gone thru it–and I am Jewish!

A non-Jewish friend of mine went through it–strip searches, folks–when he entered Israel from India, He is not even politically active, and he went througn a 4 hour, grueling, dehumanizing, search.

The 'searches' are designed to humiliate, more than anything!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 2:39 am ET

Oh, and intimidate, too.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 2:45 am ET

Sarah.

(1)not one of those Muslim countries is ruled by Islamic law.

(2)non of these terrorists were sent by any Government.

(3)about hamas rockets why dont you ask Israel to stop killing children and stop stealing palestinian land.

(4) if you hate Muslims can you keep that hate to your self instead of showing your Ignorance.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 2:45 am ET

Joan, I am not at all trying to be condescending.

Just sharing my experiences and observations.

I agree with what you say on one level, but going deeper is another thing.

It is simple and it is not simple.

The problem is the human aspect in the equation–the human condition definitely complicates simple things!

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 2:46 am ET

usa did support this war with weapons and money .... thats more woerse then a drugdealer
they sell weapons to kill

bush .... den haag

israel is doing a holocaust
den haag
pay for it on earth and in hell

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 2:49 am ET

UGH, I need a break. Keep up the dialogue all.

Maybe I'll check back later.

As Debs has expressed

Shalom v' Salaam

oldtimer   January 12th, 2009 2:51 am ET

So the Israeli genocide venture into Gaza has almost met it's goal. How nice, i'm thinking that these Israeli's need to face the world court for crimes against humanity.

Hope   January 12th, 2009 2:51 am ET

Song for Gaza...

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 2:53 am ET

Sarah,

I always thought that my gov't missed a great opportunity amid all the carnage to build bridges. Having lived in countries that have large Muslim populations, I thought that this would be the best route to take. As you said, it couldn't have hurt, and may have even been viewed as a sign of respect.

To be honest, I expected a 911 long before 2001, judging from my travels and some extremist rhetoric I was hearing. No one could have stopped what happened. But the US had a very golden opportunity then to prevent what is happening now. Too bad that there was more interest in defense subcontrators, engineering firms, and a few very well-placed politicians (which will remain nameless 8) ) making a whole lot of money off 911.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 2:54 am ET

Well, I have to go now, time to sleep. Mohammed, you're not here, but you'll be glad that I;m following your advice. NOt becasue you suggested it, but becasue I really do need to sleep.

I thought we were talking about the people of Gaza, but now we are onta the terrible life of Arab Israeli's. In any case, I can't believe that anyone in that area has a good life now.

And when they run out of arguments, people keep saying 'it's the occupation'. Sorry, tht's a broken record. Try something else.

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 2:56 am ET

Solomon,

Did you see my post about US actions after 911? As a Muslim, what is your take on my idea? Or am I way off base?

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 3:01 am ET

Solomon

I think you misunderstood where I was coming from?

I think about US involvement with in the middle ease since the Ottoman fell and also a little of brit involvement.
I was sort of leading in that direction, that instead of the US using or demanding per say alot of allegience from ME leaders, then When there was a real issue of need in a more global world of 1+2+3=1.....persay While the US is guilty of arogance, sometimes I think ME leaders are guilty of poor leadership.
Uh um, My husband is of Palestinian Decent, which makes my children so.......
While, I may not know them, those in Gaza, and the west bank and Jeruselum. the extended family...they do exist and they are family.

Salamalaykum

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 3:02 am ET

"justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law,"

Sarah.

that sentence tell me all about you.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 3:05 am ET

AJ,

I can'tleave without one more comment.

I don't agree that it is the human condition that makesit complicated. The human condition is bad but that is relatively easy to fix. I think it is the human (or, not so human ) attitudes that make it dificult (not necessarily complicated).

Professor,

You have gone in a circle back to the occupation. But you still have not defined the area. How can you argue about something you can't define ?

Audrey June   January 12th, 2009 3:06 am ET

Mr. Obama:

I watched you in the year 2004 and cried when I listened to your speech about the United States of America. I was surprised that you were running for President of the United States of America, but hey I was pulling for you – you spoke with such eloquence, grace and sincerity; I watched faithfully when you announced your candidacy in Springfield, Illinois, I cried again. I watched when you were vilified by the press for Reverend Wright – I cried for you again, that people in your own Country could sabotage you the way they were; but you came through, you delivered that wonderful “race” speech in Pennsylvania – yes I copied it, yes I listened to it at least three times on the Internet, yes I discussed it with people at my work and made them aware of your sincerity for the oppressed and down-trodden, and yes, I cried all throughout the speech, and I cried every time I listened to it (my husband thought we could keep the paper tissue factories in business as long as you were running – because I was always crying); I followed your campaign through all the heartbreak and the wins; and I cried for you; I listened to them vilify your wife; and I cried for you again; (I think she is quite beautiful and that yellow outfit she wore on Letterman was wonderful);

You are now the President-Elect of the United States of America – your victory speech was stupendous; yes, I cried again. I contacted my son in Ohio to see if he could get me some inaugural tickets to your inauguration (I live on Vancouver Island – furthest West Island in Canada) and I was prepared to pay my own expenses, fly down, get a hotel and enjoy the festivities; I cried, because he didn’t know how to obtain those kinds of tickets; but that’s o.k. because my husband (good man that he is and non-political) has created a DVD with your wonderful pictures on it and has it all ready to record all your events on January 20th, 2009;

Unfortunately, in the last 16 days, Israel has run amuck again and as per normal (some of us actually read history and other news) and is out there killing Palestinians with the blessing of the United States of America; and I am crying because you said that “Israel has a right to defend itself”. Well Mr. Obama, the Palestinians also have a right to defend themselves; they are in an Occupied concentration camp, controlled completely by Israel. Now, you being the champion of human rights and the oppressed, I was expecting some support for the Palestinian people as were a lot of people in the rest of the World – but you have become silent or you repeat “there can only be one President at a time in the United States”. That last statement I agree with, however, can you not speak as an individual of the atrocities that are being committed against the Palestinian people. We, the people, around the World and in the United States spoke out, wrote letters and defended you when you were being vilified – can you not defend the Palestinians – we, the people of the World will support you if you do and please so I can stop crying.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 3:07 am ET

asent it .... hmmm ... this german guy which did ask if USA is crazy to do a war because of theroy ... i think it was this german leader joshka fischer or what ever his name was

did bush let his people suffer in a war because of theory????
bush go nuthouse!!!!!!!

so is a theory war better then a "religious" war which is forced by USA with no religious reason?

nuuuuttttthouseee!!!!!!!!!!!

8years ... are americans masocists?

what a comedy????

Bill   January 12th, 2009 3:08 am ET

I just read an interesting atricle:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424929369&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

It seems Iran is warning the Islamic terrorists of Hamas not to accept any ceasefire. If the Hamas Islamic terrorists accept a ceasefire, Iran will cut off their weapons and money.

It seems that Iran is willing to fight to the last drop of Palestinian blood. Iran is just using the Palestinians as cannon fodder to take a gullible world's attention off of their plans to create nuclear weapons.

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 3:08 am ET

Lynne,

Yes, I think it was just a matter of time also. It was bombed before...
also, the going ons in the me and other places...

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 3:10 am ET

January 12th, 2009 302 GMT

“justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law,”

Sarah.

that sentence tell me all about you.

using the COMMENT box, and forgot to put more space between the "quoted Comment" and mine.
MINE was the last commented paragraph. :(

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 3:12 am ET

Solomon,

“justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law,”

That was from me. This is the question I asked was this:

have a question to pose, gang. Suppose, after 911, instead of Shrub Jr. declaring you are with us or against us, the US had gone to the Muslim nations and asked for justice afforded non-believers under Islamic law, as well as taking Iran up on the offers to assist finding the people that committed the crime?

Do you think that the US’ image would have improved to the extent that if we had requested, Muslim nations could have convinced Hamas to stop the rockets?

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 3:12 am ET

I'm the believer in as long as you believe what you believe and don't harm me or mine and leave me to believe what I believe all is well. AnD I won't bother you with I believe...

It's the way a true believer is, no?

Lynne   January 12th, 2009 3:19 am ET

Solomon,

Love your cartoon. I am so ignorant - is that arabic the words are written in? I really must learn the language before I leave this world.

Maybe you can help me pronounce the name of my mare. Her registered name is Bahie Waahimah. I was told it translates to beautiful fantasy. Is this correct?

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 3:22 am ET

Bill

iran told his people to not go at war in gaza!!!!
iran did not allow them to support the hamas and did the people not let out of the country!!

this ....
whyle israel was planing a attak against Iran and is still ponting at iran
this while usa did plan a attak at iran .... but found that it is better not to do a war with iran

mohammad   January 12th, 2009 3:26 am ET

the Israel officials say that hamas fired rockets to Israel during the last 8 years and Israel did not do any thing ....
that is a lie ....during the last 8 years
during the time between 29/09/2000 to 01/08/2006
1670 civil victim in Gaza by the IDF.
421 children in Gaza.
290 militants Assassinated 202 civilians not targeted .
that is why hamas was firing the rockets.....the mighty rockets that killed ......14 .
the rockets that was taking as a bridge to make this Holocaust in Gaza

Bill   January 12th, 2009 3:26 am ET

Akiva

What is your point? Read the article.

Damian   January 12th, 2009 3:27 am ET

**THIS IS THE TRUTH!!!***
Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel's part for whatever reason, the following two sentences really say it all:

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.

If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 3:27 am ET

bill.

I wouldn't believe that one hundred percent.
as Press tv has stated that Israel will suffer worse defeat than in lebanon.

on another note:
Why is it so upsetting for people that IRAN support any country?
Should they ask permission first before trade agreements, talks, diplomacy are even?
honestly, just waite. just waite until what comes around goes around. How;s that dish?

earle,florida   January 12th, 2009 3:31 am ET

This is what war creates,when it embarks to disengage mankinds rationale, and consciousness from consequences calculating ramdom religious philosophies! The dark-side of hedonism masked by a algorhythm design to hold "God Ransom",outside the relm of reality,...are the" Devil's Tool's"! Wisdom is a rare commodity in today's world!

oldtimer   January 12th, 2009 3:31 am ET

So the Military finally thinks that maybe they have murdered enough children and woman, so they can now call their mission a success. Must be nice to have no conscience or guilt at what they are doing. This is no more then shooting fish in a barrell. But i guess they must be cowards deep down. Hezbollah kicked their ass in the last little war they started.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 3:43 am ET

Sarah -

So far it seems that Israel is kicking the behinds of the Islamic terrorists in Gaza. The fact that these war criminal cowards are hiding behind women and children to maximize civilian casualties is sad and shows how much Islamic terrorists care about life, especially Muslim life.

Iran is supporting worldwide Islamic terrorism. That, by itself, is pretty disturbing. I agree that all the hate that they are paying for will come back to haunt them. I hope soon.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 3:45 am ET

IDF explains white phosphours at civilians
and now they explain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

youtube.com/watch?v=BiR62yXICyE

Den Haaaaag
nuthouse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 3:45 am ET

Egypt sees progress in ceasefire talks with Hamas

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424930097&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 3:48 am ET

CNN

youtube.com/watch?v=BiR62yXICyE

whats that??????????????????
you dont bring it up?????????????

whats about international law??????
not interesssting?
censoring?
did IDF get this weapons by USA???????????????

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 3:48 am ET

Bill,

"Israel is kicking the behinds of the Islamic terrorists in Gaza"

827 children s is exemplary of the bravery if vs Cowardly.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 3:50 am ET

Hunk – Are you saying that 827 children are Islamic terrorists? That is disturbing, indeed. I hadn't heard that.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 3:54 am ET

Bill,

No comment

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 4:02 am ET

Cartoonist

Says this :

Israel has the reich to defend itself

On the background the Nazi regime and flag flying behind on a red background.

I tried to post the link but CNN will not show it.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 4:07 am ET

Here's a cartoon that CNN can show:

http://today.excite.com/toonedview/id/2.html

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 4:07 am ET

hunk ... post the link
take http away
sptlit the link ... put space between letters thants

jim   January 12th, 2009 4:08 am ET

everyone in this forum, contact your senator and representative and tell them its time to eliminate all aid for economic and miliatry to israel.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 4:14 am ET

Israel has the reich to defend itself
On the background the Nazi regime and flag flying behind on a red background.
I tried to post the link but CNN will not show it.
Itself www. mahjoob. com/en/archives/ view.php? cartoonid=2603&Y=2009&M=01

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 4:16 am ET

Bill,

Honestly.... Israel is doing HORRIBLE.
They have around 30 injured and how many killed?
With what kinds of weapons? What kind of strategy, planning etc?
pffftt... they may have won but only temorarily and only to keep up moral for the cause....what ever that is,
we can all agree that Hamas is not finished by far. Look the protests...you don't think those of the mind set are possible extremists? How about the kids injured/disfigured and say...what kind of life can I have now? They will be the ones most suceptable to suicide programming(shudder)

and again....the tide is coming. most, if not all just don't see it. Even I can only put up with seeing it for so long...and I CAN TURN IF OFF!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 4:18 am ET

Akiva,

Remove the space or click from the website on "political cartoon" and press previous till you reach the cartoon.

His name is Emad Hajaj he is a Palestinian and for me he is the best. but too much mockery that make me don't know to laugh or cry.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:19 am ET

Yup, we can always turn it off, but the Gazans cannot.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:20 am ET

24/7 for them, non-stop.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:23 am ET

Hi AJ
Hi All

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 4:24 am ET

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/2009111155618728529.html

Bill   January 12th, 2009 4:25 am ET

jim –

I've actually done the opposite. I've contacted my representatives asking for them to support Israel with everything they need to defend themselves against Islamic terrorist aggression.

I would imagine that you would feel differently had you survived the bombing of the World Trade Center or had rockets fired at your house for the last 8 years. Israel has a duty to protect itself and its citizens from constant Islamic terrorist aggression. The US government has the same duty to its citizens.

The more Islamic terrorists that we fight and kill in the Middle East, the fewer we need to fight here on American soil.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:25 am ET

Just heard from friend...900 Gazans dead...Operation may be "extended 20 more days...until Israel achieves its objectives."

And what the hell are those objectives??

Israel says, "Be patient..." For what ...????...900++ MORE DEATHS????

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:27 am ET

Any regulars here??

Rod, Lynne, someone, !!

ground me out here, this is crazy nuts, the world is insane!!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:29 am ET

Linda!

Fellow wheel chair warrior!

Hello from #2

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:29 am ET

AJ,
they have been saying for a few days that they are going into phase 3. I hope it looks better than phase 2

Bill,
I wrote my government officials also, and so did A J.
I think we have something to say, and I hope they listen

Do any of you know if Dan went to the NYC protests today? I guess it was a big ta do

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:30 am ET

What the hell is phase 3 ?

And what the hell are theit objectives, the world be hanged??!!

shah   January 12th, 2009 4:30 am ET

israel denies the use of white phosphorus.
israel denies violating the international law.
israel denies the killing of innocent civilians.
israel denies violating egyptian air space.
and the denial will go on...
While the world is witnessing the annihilation of palestinians in gaza, we are sistematically being deceived by the information we get.
How sad !!

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 4:31 am ET

the objectives are genocide
and now acctualy clean gaz ... hide every thing what point on a dirty war
now they must clean all white phosphorous rest
kill everyone who can speak about that
and theymust hide all the deth bodies
thats about objektives
they have to fake now facts and fool us as ever
IDF the Israel Death Force

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:31 am ET

A J!
#1 here and ready for duty!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:32 am ET

I salute you, #1!!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:32 am ET

Evidently Phase 3 is what they are calling, sending the ground troops in to fight, gun to gun, basically.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:34 am ET

I cannot stay here if the majority is for this

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:37 am ET

It looks like a lot of our friends were on earlier, but a lot of new people too. It looks like it got really nasty.
I have been on reading for about an hour. Then when I saw you, I said something. I'm not stooping to that, you know?

Bill   January 12th, 2009 4:38 am ET

Sarah -

I see it differently. Given the scope of the conflict, the amount of Israel's losses is minimal. I know that every Israeli life is precious and I grieve for those lost and injured. But Israel is doing the right thing. Hamas has been dealt a serious blow. Since Hamas would rather have all the Palestinians in Gaza die before stopping their aggression, Israel will need to fight until Hamas is destroyed. I see this as a sad but necessary thing, like cancer surgery.

Some Palestinians will certainly become suicide bombers. Some will stop and think about whether the additional suffering they cause will further their agenda. Some of this is inevitable from a society that poisons the minds of its very young children with racism, hate, and intolerance. Until they stop this practice, their children will always be at war with somebody. This is something that we can not fix. Only the Muslims can change they way they treat their children.

Palestinians are beginning to see that Hamas has ruined their chances at getting their own homeland. Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians and what did they do to it? They dug up sewer pipes to make Kassam rockets to fire at Israeli civilians. They ruined the land and turned it into a hellish Islamic terrorist encampment. They elected a violent Islamic terrorist government who took complete control in a coup. Their elected government wants to completely destroy Israel.

Israel is unlikely to make the same mistake twice. Giving land to the Palestinians has turned into a horrible mistake that should not be repeated.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:40 am ET

Linda, I hear ya, it gets overwhelming

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:42 am ET

I spent a lot of time in my greenhouse, today just trying to relax. Sometimes I feel as though I can not even breathe.
Did you do anything interesting today?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:43 am ET

Spent too much time in here, I'm afraid.

Greenhouse sounds like a great place to atch your breath!

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 4:43 am ET

Bill

israel is doing the right thing???
how dumb????
if ll hmas are deth you must atomize your self
the whole world will wipe israel
cant you see how may people allready hate you around the world???
its not the question if israel will die!!!
the only question is the question of time!!!

and all your soldiers who go in now there and see wht they have done ... they will find peace in a nightmare!!!!!!!

you will see

be proud of what you have done ... be proud!!!
go to helll!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:46 am ET

There's no changing minds, whatever 'side' one is on.

Wonder why I am doing this?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:47 am ET

Get info out, but

...does it make a difference?

Does it matter?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:48 am ET

I was hoping to get onto here and see respectful discussions, intelligent information, and check on Dan and see if he was in that mess in NYC. Like I said earlier, I'm about to through in the towel, on this blog and humanity

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:50 am ET

Every night at about this time, I look at the clock and know that it is morning in Gaza, and I wonder what it looks like there today. :(

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:50 am ET

I bet Dan did go...

Bill   January 12th, 2009 4:51 am ET

Akiva -

The Jews have received death threats for thousands of years. They are still here and stronger than ever. Most of those threatening the Jews are long gone. What does that tell you?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:52 am ET

I don't even think it is changing anyone's mind, most won't even look at the other side of the argument, or concede a point that has been maken, even when it is proven. I just don't know what is happening to humanity.
My motto is: Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning how to dance in the rain", It's raining a lot lately. I'm tired

Nona   January 12th, 2009 4:52 am ET

Greetings friends and all lovers of peace.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 4:53 am ET

Greetings Nona!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:53 am ET

Nona!
I'm so glad to see you. :)

Nona   January 12th, 2009 4:55 am ET

Hello Linda, Bill, AJ and all! I am glad to see you all!

Bill   January 12th, 2009 4:55 am ET

Linda -

I guess a fanatic is someone who won't change their mind and won't change the subject.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:56 am ET

Well, you are right, Linda.

I think I have done all I can do today.

Hi Nona.

Wishing all a good night!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:56 am ET

AJ,
I'm worried for Dan because he was so upset after what some people said to him about the ovens. I am hoping he did not go, I don't want him to get hurt or arrested. He is very passionate, and this is so close to his heart, I feel so bad for him. He has really come under attack.

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 4:56 am ET

Bill

it tells me that your a stupid nazi

Nona   January 12th, 2009 4:57 am ET

Did you guys see the discussion tonight on "DL Hughley Makes the News?" It's the first time I've ever watched that show and got something out of it. They had a good conversation with a rabbi and a Muslim woman and they were all agreeing! Really good discussion.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:57 am ET

Aj
don't go yet, our friends are showing up now, look :) it's nona and Bill!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 4:59 am ET

Hate to see you go as I come in AJ. Hope we'll catch up soon. Good nite but feel free to stay! :)

Bill   January 12th, 2009 4:59 am ET

Nona -

What did they agree on?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 4:59 am ET

I missed it Nona, I was watching Huckabee, he had Ann Coulter on there and she has said things about him in the past, so he was confronting her. It wasn't as interesting as I thought it would be.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 4:59 am ET

Ovens and Nazis is a bad bad way to take the conversation, I agree.

It hurts me when Dan accuses me of being a fake Jew because I don't agree with him.

The world hurts too much

Hurt begets hurt it seems

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:01 am ET

Akiva, PLEASE don't call names
Stay away from Nazi.

People do not agree here, but let's not go there, ok?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:02 am ET

I am sorry he said that, he was the one who hurt my feelings too. But he was under such attack, I just had to move on.
I think everyone is just raw emotions and stressed, not to say that is an excuse. They should have more self control. Fighting doe not solve anything.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:03 am ET

Nona, I saw it last night!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:03 am ET

What did they say guys? I missed it

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:05 am ET

Bill - Nazi has just become a word thrown out by the ignorant who can't make an intelligent and rational argument based on facts.

On DL Hughley, they were just talking about the respective cultures of their religions and some of the East-West divide in mentality. The Muslim lady was talking about how in Arab cultures there is a tribal mentality where even if you know your people are wrong, you never admit it because you risk alienating not only your family & friends but your self identity. Hughley was comparing the whole thing to growing up in a gang culture. Then the rabbi was explaining some of the realities of Hamas as opposed to the Palestinian people. It was nice to see a rational discussion.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:06 am ET

At least we are not in the M.E.

We might be killing each other...emotions are a lot more raw there!

The conversation was very good on DL

I am sure it p.o'd many Jewss and Muslims on both sides.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:06 am ET

What were your thoughts, AJ?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:07 am ET

Wow, I hate I missed it!

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 5:07 am ET

Bill,

While there may be in your view small numbers for Israelis. I think this is the last straw. The camel is broken and the good will of Arab western Allies in the region are under strain. They cannot surely hope to satisfy their people by ignoring the issue with Alot of the previous wars refugees. While, yes, some numbers can be absorbed, there are those with...while are moderates, l think that it is a short fuse.
It doesn't matter for the most part what concessions Israel gives the Palestinians/hamas. They, in my view made a big miss step. Knowing that as Current matters stand in US less and less people are willing to support blindly Israeli cause or ME for that matter. Most would just rather leave the whole mess to the people it belongs to, whether it's a defeatist thought or not.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:09 am ET

Linda,\
You have not necessarily missed it.

What part of country are you in?

Late showing after Larry King

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:10 am ET

DL Hughly breaks the News

It will be on at the bottom of the hour.

Brian   January 12th, 2009 5:11 am ET

I would like to make it easy for everyone. Imagine a person (isra..) who have entered to a house and forced its weak occupiers (pales..) off. He definitely knew that the house is not him but decided to live in that house for ever. The legitimate occupiers decided to not give up, to do their best to get their house back. Now, will this person feel SAFE and have a normal and natural life? Won't he do EVERYTHING (legitimate self defense against terror!) to keep the house. Can you imagine how aggressive would he be ?....

It's not a matter of a islamist or communist movement ..religion has nothing to do here. Israel called Arafat terrirost though he was everything except religious..hey stop Lying at us. I understand that you're doing your best to connect the Palestinian tragedy to the war against terror and I firmly believe that after Gaza carnage no one will believe you for a second!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:11 am ET

The Rabbi and Muslim that is.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:12 am ET

Linda – also some links to video of DL's show on CNN.com but I looked and this one isn't up yet.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:12 am ET

DL comes on at top of the hour.

The discussion with the 2 is half way thru show...

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:13 am ET

Sarah,
I agree that a lot of people are so tired of the ME conflict, that they may want to leave it to them. Although there are arguments on both sides, I don't see the other Arab countries coming to the defense of Hamas either. I see that each country has hidden motives. Unfortunately, I think they will fight it out, and then the dust will settle. Just like so many times before. what a mess.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:14 am ET

Great, thanks guys.

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 5:14 am ET

DL hughly, I thought would be a good one. especially when we need it but i didn't get the hang of it. Everytime I turned it on it was making a joke out of race...not in a good way. I think there comes a point when race comentary that is supposed to make one laugh becomes degrading, for those speaking so and those it's aimed at.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:15 am ET

Nice to meet you Sarah. I think Americans increasingly understand that Hamas is basically the al-Qaeda cell whose mission is to wipe Israel off the map and will continue to support Israel. I think they'll also continue to sympathize with the Palestinian people and advocate for their own state.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:16 am ET

Nona,
Have you seen Rod since the other night? He was looking for you yesterday.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:16 am ET

I thought it was very interesting.

I have seen these 2 people before.

She is Iranian American. She has a few books out...she is quite ccontroversial. Immigrated to USA when she was a child

The Rabbi has had a show called Shalom in the Home on cable

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:16 am ET

Hi Brandon,

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:17 am ET

Hi Brandon!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:18 am ET

Nona,he apologized to you, didn't he?

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:18 am ET

Yes I did, Linda. He pounded on me as soon as he saw me with an apology. It was very sweet and I think all of you guys know how much I appreciated that. I really really did.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:18 am ET

Yes, it will be on in 45 min. If it is the Iranian American women that I am thinking of, I think she is very intelligent and provokes a lot of thought.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:19 am ET

Hello Brandon!

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 5:19 am ET

yes, linda, there are so many hidden motives between the west and ME leaders that it honestly reminds me of the spy novels based on the French revolution and in old England btween kings and queens.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:19 am ET

Ooops! I meant "pounced" not "pounded"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There can be a huge difference between a "c" and a "d" I supposed! LOL!!!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:20 am ET

Good Nona,
I had a very stern word with him as soon as I saw him, and he said he was on looking for you, he knew he was wrong.
I told him that it would take a big man to do that, and I knew he could be one. I 'm glad he did. :)

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:21 am ET

Great comparison, Sarah!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:21 am ET

Thank you Linda. Rod is a big man - I always thought he was and was kinda devastated when he thought I was so small minded.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 5:21 am ET

Sarah -

I think the Arab nations are getting fed up with an Iranian sponsored terror camps in their midst. I hear more and more encouraging news from Egypt. They are getting pretty sick of Hamas and Hizbollah. Arab support for Iranian terrorism is weakening. To save face, many Arab governments are going through the motions to condemn Israel for defending itself against the constant Islamic terrorist aggression. But most of them realize that the destruction of Hamas is in their best interests.

I don't think a lot of Americans blindly support Israel. I think a lot of Americans support Israel for logical reasons. We both value life, truth, justice, security, and peace. When attacked, we take the fight to the enemy. In times of peace, you couldn't have a better friend.

Some Americans, no doubt, want to leave the Mid-East alone to self-destruct. That is not in our interest either. The more we fight Islamic terrorism in its homeland, the less we need to have war in our homeland.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:22 am ET

Politicians are so removed–it is about money and votes for them.

I think one loses a lot of morals when they get enmeshed in politics...personal opinion.

I could not do it, I am afraid..

Brian   January 12th, 2009 5:24 am ET

Nona ..you really made me laugh !!

"Hamas is basically the al-Qaeda cell?!" ...what a silly joke..anyway and after all, all resistance movement are considered as al-Qaeda cells for the israeli propaganda..

AGAIN !
stop Lying at us. I understand that you’re doing your best to connect the Palestinian tragedy to the war against terror and I firmly believe that after Gaza carnage no one will believe you for a second!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:24 am ET

LOSS OS MORALS, I couldn't agree more!

Tell me, do any of you think BB will get elected in Feb.?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:26 am ET

I dont agree Bill, it is not entirely Islamic issue, it is a Zionist issue, too.

Idealogies whatever side is a very big part of it.

It is both sides....ALL sides...Arab politicians, USA politicians, a lonnnggg laundry list.

All are culpable.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:27 am ET

My resolute opinion!
:)

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:27 am ET

I agree, Bill.

Politics is basically the business of back-rubbing and self-preservation. In many ways, it cripples the capacity for true leadership. When true leadership can emerge from politics, it's rare but it's like a gift from heaven. I think good leaders don't please everybody and sometimes even hurt some people, but they leave the world better than they found it. Good leaders have to make some terribly difficult decisions, and that kinda cripples incentive to be a good leader for anybody with an eye on an election.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:28 am ET

What do you mean it's a Zionist issue, AJ?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:30 am ET

I could write a book, Nona, and many have. But not tonight.

Too tired.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:32 am ET

Lets just say there are definitely 2 parallell histories of the last 60 years. BOTH sides need to be heard...

that is the very short of it

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:32 am ET

Fair enough - but be prepared to see the question from me again when you're better rested, my friend!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:32 am ET

AJ
Do you feel well enough to explain to me, since you are jewish, the difference between Jewish issue and Zionist issue?
If you can't save it for tomorrow :)

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:33 am ET

What about BB? Does anyone think he will get elected again?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:33 am ET

No problem, friend!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 5:34 am ET

Translated Article from Arabic Newspaper today

Before over 5 years, mohammad Al Dowery- Iraq UN rep- said on the UN apologizing to his students for teaching them the international law and said , there is no international law I am sorry to my students and waved him face from the camera and cried Baghdad.

Which international law while "Ayoub" was swimming on his mother blood for four days, which international law when the Un humanitarian "RELIEF" for refugees school is hit when it's for refugees at their own land and the school is housing refugees from the 11 days massacres ,which international law when you have a corrupted police man still patrolling the world.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:37 am ET

Hmmm...good question...

Let us just say there are pro, anti, post, et zionists
And there are many many Jews with diverse–and very strong –opinions in the Jewish world.

Ive said it before:

2 jews
3 opinions
We are a very multi faceted bunch

Bill   January 12th, 2009 5:38 am ET

AJ -

I respect your opinion. Yes, there are extremists on both sides and no side is without blame.

But I don't think that both sides are equally to blame. In my opinion, Israel has bent over backwards trying to promote peace. It went through a painful process to remove all of its citizens from Gaza to give it to the Palestinians. What the Palestinians did to it is history.

The Palestinians seem to think it is their God given right to attack Israel and they don't understand why there are consequences for their actions. Hello? I believe that when the Palestinians stop their constant attacks, there will be no war around Israel. If they can control themselves for an extended period of time, then maybe trust can develop. Then maybe there can be peace.

Nona -

Thanks

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:40 am ET

From my POV, Zionism is what keeps Jews from talking to each other within the community!

Look Zionism up in wikipedia, a good description of all POVs, historical background, etc

Even I have trouble understanding the full dynamic, but it is at the core of our own internal war, in my opinion.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:42 am ET

I see Zionism as very problematic, but I am NOT anti Israeli people, I am anti the Zionist idealogy

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:42 am ET

Thanks, AJ!
What do you think of BB? Will they elect him again?
I wish Benny was here so I could ask him. He would know the word on the street

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:43 am ET

Bill, from what I've read of your posts, you and I see 100% eye to eye.

I like also how your arguments are intellectually based on fact. I don't really see you resorting to name calling and insults when I read your comments. Emotions run high on this topic, but when you have the facts, you can let them do the talking. If people refuse to listen, well, there always will be those people.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:44 am ET

AJ,
Some of my Jewish friends seem to feel the same way. I does seem very complicated, that is why it confuses me.
Thanks for your answer ;)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:45 am ET

I res[ectfully disagree, Bill.

You have a right to your opinion,

There are two histories of a 60 year conflict, good to look at both sides, as distatsteful as it may be to you..

I have and it has been extremely painful for me as a Jew, but most necessary.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:46 am ET

I'm glad that all of us here tonight, are the people with respect for one another, and have intelligent conversations. I can learn a lot with this type of setting.

Bill   January 12th, 2009 5:49 am ET

Nona -

Thanks. Sometimes I have not been "gentle" in my remarks, but I try to take the example of you, Linda, Lynne, AJ, et. al., and take the high road.

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:50 am ET

I have also explored the facts on both sides and all'I can say is, there are very different ideas about the 'facts'–on both sides, folks

That is why it is now a HUMAN issue affecting both sides from my perspective and there ya go...my perspetive

racasel   January 12th, 2009 5:50 am ET

All who believe in muslim, watch this web link video.

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:51 am ET

Me too, Linda!

Personally, AJ, I think the history is becoming increasingly irrelevant. Linda (I think???) was saying the other day, "Start the history with the Neanderthals," and I kind of agree. A muddled, disputed history doesn't change the facts on the ground today, and the facts on the ground today are what the foundations of peace should be built on, not whose land was whose when at whatever point in time. JMO – I am increasingly of the opinion that you can't unravel conflicting histories and find some kind of answer that yields peace as the net result.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:51 am ET

I have lost it a few times, Bill. But I try to remember that we are all human beings here. Thank you for the complement.

CAN SOMEONE ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT BiBi?

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:52 am ET

Read thru tonights posts, you will get a little of my background and experience of living in Israel.

I hope itwill also help you understand ME better as a Jew, and human beibg...

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:52 am ET

I hear ya, Bill. My fuse has been known to get a little short too!

Bill   January 12th, 2009 5:52 am ET

AJ -

Which part(s) do you disagree with? Do you think that Israel wants constant war? Do you think that Israel's response to Islamic terrorist attacks is unjustified? What do you think Israel should do when their civilian population is bombarded by thousands of rockets and mortars?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:53 am ET

Yes, it was me Nona. You said it much better :)

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:56 am ET

I enjoy reading all of your posts, AJ. And I think we have a lot of insight about you, as you do about me. Although I am not Jewish, I think we see things very similar. I don't think it is a question of WHAT you are, but WHO you are.
I like each and every one of you here tonight.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:56 am ET

Linda, you were cracking me up that night!

WARRIOR!!!!!

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 5:56 am ET

On BB, you will need to ask Dan and Beny.

South Africa did it

Ireland did it

Annd they are stiil doing it

I hope that Israel and Palestine can do it too–in my lifetime!!

Gary   January 12th, 2009 5:57 am ET

Did the fathr tell his screaming children’s that those horrible noises were just another rocket sent over to Israel with the hope that kills a Jew or an Israeli child for th past 8 years or more?
The truth is that your children are very used to this environment and you have raised them to believe that is ok to attack other civil populations as long as they are Jews but you forgot to tell them that you reap what you sow and you Palestinians have NOT sown peace. It is different when you are only looking with a narrow minded view isn't it. A few weeks of bombs going the other way might balance things out a bit.

Brandon   January 12th, 2009 5:57 am ET

POLITICS..POLITICS..POLITICIANS...

Guys, im an economist...an economic problem needs an economic solution...not a political one... any concern based in religion and its aspects must have a religious approach...for every problem there's a solution..

THE LAW OF SUPPLY AND DEMAND...

I'LL APPLY IT ON HOW I UNDERSTANDS IT...
( IN THESE ISRAEL-GAZA CONFLICT )....

THERE ARE NO WARS IF THERE ARE NO COUNTRIES THAT SUPPORT AND SUPPLY ANY ARMAMENTs IN BOTH SIDES...

HAMAS DEMANDS FOR ROCKETS AND COUNTRIES WHO SUPPORT HAMAS SUPPLY THEM WITH SUCH..

ISRAEL DEMANDS FOR MODERN WEAPONRY AND COUNTRIES WHO SUPPORT ISRAEL SUPPLY THEM WITH SUCH..

IMAGINE, IF THOSE COUNTRIES STOPS PRODUCING SUCH WEAPONS..
NO WARS...NO CONFLICTS...NO KILLINGS...

THOUGH, LETS FACE THE REALITY THAT POLITICS ARE HERE LONG BEFORE WE ARE BORN...AND POLITICS ARE HERE TO STAY...WETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT...
.....SAD BUT TRUE....

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:57 am ET

Nona,
I was just in the mood!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 5:58 am ET

Brandon,
I'm married to an Economist. That is why I understand your way of thinking. :)

American Jew   January 12th, 2009 6:00 am ET

Warrior #2 signing off here.

Nona, ask me that question above next time as my neck is killing me!!

I am not ignoring you, I promise

Linda, DL is now coming on!! Check it out!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:01 am ET

Brandon,
I'm going to come to your house and steal your CAPS LOCK button! :)

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:02 am ET

AJ
Yes, I have it on, good night, get some rest!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:02 am ET

Warrior #1 Salutes YOU!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:03 am ET

Will do. Feel better, AJ.

Veronica Smith   January 12th, 2009 6:03 am ET

Sick of so much hypocrisy, can this father tell me what kind of explanation he gave to his children when everyday rockets were fired by the Palestinians into Israel. Did he tell his screaming children that those horrible noises were just another rocket sent over to Israel with the hope that it kills a Jew or an Israeli child?
The truth is that your children are very used to this environment and you have raised them to believe that it is ok to attack civil population as long as they are Jews but you forgot to tell them that you reap what you sow and Palestinians have NOT sown peace.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:08 am ET

What's the deal with Dan? I saw the conversation in the thread but couldn't entirely follow.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:09 am ET

Brandon, Linda is the great Western Imperialist oppressor of people who write in all caps.

Just so ya know.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:11 am ET

Well, there were protest in NYC, that turned violent today. I was hoping he was one the blog, because I am afraid that he may have gone to the protest and after the day he had her earlier, I'm worried.
He was really being attacked from all sides, and some horrible things were said to him. So I hope he did NOT go to the protests. I would hate for him to have been in the middle of it.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:12 am ET

And don't forget, The WARRIOR

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:18 am ET

I thought the Palestinians at the rally in NY were attacking each other. I didn't think it was a clash between pro-Hamas and pro-Israeli protesters.

dominique   January 12th, 2009 6:18 am ET

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

Best historical explanation I found for this conflict....
Was surprised of how little I knew...
Little long but completely worth it...

Bill   January 12th, 2009 6:18 am ET

Press report from the violence in NY today:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479189,00.html

It seems the pro-Palestinian protestors were vastly outnumbered by the Israeli supporters. I think this is a good sign.

Damien Blackley   January 12th, 2009 6:20 am ET

When Israel calls a halt and withdraws from the Gaza, who will be the winner?

Israel will claim victory if no rockets are fired.

Hamas will claim victory if can fire just one rocket.

Neither. Without a peace accord the only winner is the status quo.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:20 am ET

thanks Bill!, for the link!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 6:20 am ET

In response to Video by racasel,

This is Islam debate

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:21 am ET

Dominique, I've watched part of it. Meh.

Are you getting royalties on that video?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:23 am ET

I'm not sure there is going to be a WINNER here. How will they measure winning? I'm sure they will both claim victory, but what will that really mean?

Bill   January 12th, 2009 6:23 am ET

This report says the violence was at the pro-Palestinian protest:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/01/11/gaza.rally.new.york/

It seems that the protests that turn violent across the world tend to be the pro-Palestinian ones.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:23 am ET

Bill, I was in Atlanta today and went to the rally in front of the CNN headquarters. Pro-Hamas were on one side of the street, pro-Israel was on the other.

The Pro-Israel outnumbered pro-Hamas by I bet at least 4-1.

Will be interesting to see if CNN noticed.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:24 am ET

Nona,
I agree, that has been posted here, 3 million times. Whew

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:25 am ET

Bye Brandon,
Remember, CAPS LOCK OFF :)
Sweet Dreams!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:26 am ET

Nona,
That is so interesting, what happened? I have not seen anything about a rally in Atlanta

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:27 am ET

Clayton,
Do you think using that type of language or having your caps lock on will make your point valid?

racasel   January 12th, 2009 6:28 am ET

that video was done by your fellow middle easter lady who is well educated. I don't know what language she speaks but it must be something muslims or arabs understand. that is probably the difference between hamas or hesbollah and the rest of the world and is the root of the problem, one is "educated" and they are not.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:29 am ET

Well Clayton,
I'm neither Israeli, nor Jewish, nor a pig. So what does that say about you?

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:30 am ET

Goodnight, Brandon!

Please don't leave the keys to the asylum with the lunatics!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:31 am ET

Well, Nona
Looks like the crazies are coming out

clayton   January 12th, 2009 6:31 am ET

Linda,LIER YOU ARE PIG LIKE BRANDON

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:32 am ET

Oink, Oink

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 6:32 am ET

Jew Versus Non-Jew in New York Finance

The Jewish problem in the United States is essentially a city problem. It is characteristic of the Jew to gather in numbers, not where land is open nor where raw materials are found, but where the greatest number of people abide. This is a noteworthy fact when considered alongside the Jews’ claim that the Gentiles have ostracized them; the Jews congregate in their greatest numbers in those places and among those people where they complain they are least wanted. The explanation most frequently given is this; the genius of the Jew is to live off people; not off land, nor off the production of commodities from raw material, but off people. Let other people till the soil; the Jew, if he can, will live off the tiller. Let other people toil at trades and manufacture; the Jew will exploit the fruits of their work. That is his peculiar genius. If this genius be described as parasitic, the term would seem to be justified by a certain fitness.

In no other city of the United States can the Jewish Problem be studied with greater profit than in the city of New York. There are more Jews in New York than in all Palestine. The communal register of the Jewish Kehillah (or Kahal) of New York sets the population at about 1,527,778. “The next largest Jewish community in the world, that of the city of Warsaw, is estimated to have been between 300,000 and 330,000 Jews, about one-fifth as many as we estimate for New York.” (Communal Register, 1917-1918.) “If we accept the estimate of the number of Jews in the world as about 14,000,000, one Jew out of every ten resides in New York.”

As a population, the Jews exert more power in New York than they have ever exerted during the Christian Era in any place, with the exception of the present Russia. The Jewish Revolution in Russia was manned from New York. The present government of Russia was transported almost as a unit from the lower East Side of New York. The New York Ghetto has long since overflowed the lower East Side. Brownsville, Brooklyn, is a Jewish town, with its own language, theaters and press. The upper East Side of New York is practically in large sections a Jewish Ghetto. The prosperous West Side and the middle class section of the city north of Central Park are practically Jewish.

With the exception of one great department store and a few lesser ones, all the large department stores in New York are Jewish. Men and women’s ready-to-wear apparel, laundries, furriers, the general run of shopkeeping is practically monopolized by Jews. The legal profession is predominantly Jewish. It is estimated that of the 27,000 news stands that control the distribution of New York’s reading matter, 25,000 are in the hands of Jews. There are 360 synagogues on the East Side of New York alone.

The New York Kehillah is a very powerful organization, whose membership strength is not accurately known. It may be described as the Jewish government of that city. It was organized in 1908 as the result of a statement by General Bingham, then police commissioner of New York, that the Jewish population, which then amounted to 600,000, contributed 50 per cent of the criminals of the city. The Kehillah is the bar before which the authorities must answer for statements or acts touching the Jewish community. Its power is very great and its methods far reaching.

Politically, while the rest of the country is entertained with the fiction that Tammany Hall rules the politics of New York, the fact is rarely published that the Jews rule Tammany.

But it is not the possession of power that constitutes an indictment of any people, it is their use or misuse of it. And if the fact of power is established, no misuse of it being found, the fact has a commendatory side. If the Jews who flock to New York become American, and if they do not work ceaselessly to twist Americanism into something else; if they strengthen the principles and traditions of America, and do not cease to vitiate the one and abolish the other, the judgement upon them must be one of friendship.

However, to establish the fact of Jewish power, one need not remain in the ghetto, nor in the mercantile districts. There are higher fields awaiting survey.

In Wall Street, the Jewish element is both numerous and powerful, as might be expected of a race which from early days has played an important part in the financial operations of the world.

This is not to say, however, that Jewish influence in American financial affairs is paramount. At one time it threatened to be, but American financiers have always been silently aware of the International Jewish Financier, and have endeavored quietly to block his game. Time and again the contest seemed to turn in favor of the Jew, but when the widespread secret wrestlings of the two powers have been suspended for a moment, it has been found that American finance has maintained its superiority, if only in a slight degree. The Rothschilds were the first to be beaten on American soil; the story of their hidden hand in American finance, politics and diplomacy is a voluminous one; but even their finesse did not avail against the sterling worth of American Business—not “American business” as it has come to be known, now that thousands of Jews are scattered about the world, representing themselves to be “American business men” although they can scarcely speak English!—but American Business as represented by the combination of American ability and American conscience. If the reputation of American business has suffered, it is because something other than American methods have been used under the American name.

In the New York financial district, Jewish finance makes itself felt through its private banking institutions. As distinct from the great trust companies and banks of deposit, the private banker utilizes his own capital and that of his partners and associates.

Jewish finance differs radically from non-Jewish finance in the fact that Jewish bankers are essentially money-lenders. They may underwrite great flotations of bond and stock issues for railroad and industrial companies, governments and municipalities, but these securities are immediately sold to the public. There is a quick money turnover. The public carries the bonds; the Jewish financier gets his money. The Jewish banker himself rarely has a permanent interest in the corporations he finances. Non-Jewish bankers usually feel obligated to retain a connection with the enterprises they have financed, in order to assure the investors a proper administration of funds; they feel obligated to contribute to the success of the investments which they handle for other people.

The Jewish banker keeps his capital liquid. The cash is always in his coffers. This is essential to his position as one who deals in money. And when the inevitable day of financial stress arrives, he profits greatly by the higher value then placed on liquid capital.

Far and away the leading Jewish banking house in Wall Street is that of Kuhn, Loeb & Company. The head of this great firm was the late Jacob Schiff, whose associates were his son Mortimer, Otto H. Kahn, Paul M. Warburg, and others, who have taken prominent parts both in public life and giant financial operations. Other private Jewish banking houses may be named as follows: Speyer & Company; J. and W. Seligman & Company; Lazard Freres; Ladenburg, Thalmann & Company; Hallgarten & Company; Knauth, Nachod & Kuhne; Goldman, Sachs & Company, as well as others of relatively less prominence. These firms enjoy a high reputation for financial integrity. They are cautious bankers, skillful in their operations, and sometimes brilliant in their financial strategy.

There is much control of industry, from the financial side, represented by Jewish power in Wall Street, and they have gained a monopoly of many metal markets. Large, prosperous Jewish brokerage houses are on every hand. The further one goes down the line of speculative operations, the more of the Jewish race one finds to be active in the work of company promotions and the marketing of oil and mining stocks.

Yet one amazing fact stands out from the mass: there is not, at this writing, a Jewish bank president on Wall Street; that is, a president of a bank of public deposit. Of all the great banks of public deposit and corporation finance, the enormous trust companies whose individual resources often run up to $400,000,000 and whose combined resources approximate many billions, not one of them has Jewish management or Jewish officers.

Why is this so? Why have the powerful banking families of Wall Street surrounded themselves so carefully with non-Jewish associates? Why has this great dividing line been drawn between members of the Jewish and non-Jewish races in the financial district that manages the financial resources of the nation?

Why? The answer to the question is in the custody of the stronger and sounder financial heads of Wall Street.

Only here and there will one discover a Jewish director in the boards of some of the lesser banking institutions.

The situation may be due merely to a shrewd analysis of the public mind. Rightly or wrongly the public prefers not to confide its money to an institution under Jewish control. It is true that in certain uptown sections of New York there are a few banks of a local character which are completely under Jewish management. But even the Jews prefer to deposit their money in banks which are free of Jewish control.

The situation may also be the effect of the unfortunate experience which the public has had with Jewish management of banks in the past. Several large failures have served to impress upon the public mind a certain peculiarity which attached to the Jewish element in those failures. The public has not forgotten, among others, the failure of Joseph G. Robin, whose real name was Robonovitch. He was an Odessa Jew. In an incredibly short space of time he built up four large banking institutions in which public money was deposited. He wrecked them all. His failure was most sensational and caused untold suffering. Robonovitch’s career illustrated very vividly the extent of the gifts and energies of the Jew from Russia, his wonderful faculty for building up large concerns through chicanery, and his cowardice and duplicity in the hour of defeat. This banking career ended in a felon’s cell.

However, one fact of importance, a fact that should be reassuring to the general public, is that the men to whom is entrusted the crucial task of putting to work and keeping at work the financial resources of the United States have hedged themselves about with a non-Jewish wall of great and long standing.

The effort of Jewish interests to gain control of the Stock Exchange is also an interesting story, and although the record shows a steady Jewish gain toward the end they desire, it is slow; but there are indications that the relentless persistence for which the Jew is noted, will prevail in the end—that is, if stock gambling continues to prove an alluring source of wealth.

When the Jews gain control of the Stock Exchange they will, for the first time, possess the power to wrest public banking control from the non-Jewish group.

There is a silent resistance to Jews on the Stock Exchange also, in virtue of an unwritten law, just as there is in the banking world of Wall Street, and the story of the counter-resistance calls for an historian.

It is related by Sereno S. Pratt that in 1792 there was a little office at No. 22 Wall Street for the public sale of stocks. A number of men, engaged in the business of buying and selling, were accustomed to meet near a large buttonwood tree which stood near 68 Wall Street. In 1817, the New York Stock Exchange, about as present constituted, was organized.

The Stock Exchange is private institution. It is practically a commission club in private hands. It is not incorporated.

Its membership is strictly limited to 1,100 men.

There are only two ways by which an outsider can become owner of seat on the Exchange—by obtaining it from the executor of a deceased member, or by purchasing from a retiring or bankrupt member.

These memberships or seats cost at present more than $100,000. About ten years ago a seat could be bought for $77,000.

The Stock Exchange is ruled by a Governing Committee of 40 members. For many years no Jew was elected to this Committee. Of recent years, an occasional Jewish broker has succeeded in being admitted to this upper group, but not often. This position, however, has not been the main objective of Jewish traders. When they secure a sufficient number of seats on the Exchange, they will take care of the matter of control in their own well-known way.

The two barriers which at present operate to prevent a large inroad of Jews are these: first, a silent resistance on the part of the other members against the admission of Jews, a resistance which is said to date from the earliest formation of this famous trading institution. And, second, the restrictions which are placed by the constitution of the Stock Exchange itself on all applications for membership.

The Governing Committee of 40 has a Committee on Admissions which comprises 15 members and which considers all applications for membership. As the membership is fixed at 1,100 and as no new seats are ever sold, a new member can gain entrance only through the transfer of an existing seat. But even such a transfer is under the strict control of the Committee of Admissions, to whose scrutiny the name of the applicant must be submitted, and whose two-thirds approval is necessary to his being seated.

But one outstanding characteristic of the Jewish race is its persistence. What it cannot attain this generation, it will attain next. Defeat it today, it does not remain defeated; its conquerors die, but Jewry goes on, never forgiving, never forgetting, never deviating from its ancient aim of world control in one form or another. So, though it would seem impossible that Jewish membership in the Stock Exchange could increase under these conditions, the plain fact is that it has increased. Slowly but surely the Jews are gaining numerical power on the floor of the Exchange. And they are doing it with a subtlety that is amazing.

How do they do it? In the first place, no Jewish member ever transfers his seat to a non-Jew. In times of market dullness, when the prices of seats drop and the demand is not so keen as usual, Jewish bidders offer, invariably, the highest sums to the seller. Then, in the case of the bankruptcy of a non-Jewish member, the receiver is almost compelled by the demand of creditors to accept the highest bid for the transfer of his membership; and, of course, a Jew is always at hand to make the bid as high as necessary. These are the two principal methods by which Jewish membership in the Exchange is being increased.

Another method, however, is more insidious than all the others combined. It is based on the rather common practice of adopting non-Jewish names or professing some phase of the Christian faith. The “changed name,” or, as Jews know it, “the cover name,” is a very potent part of the policy of concealment. In an advertisement, on business stationery, at the head of a magazine or newspaper article, such names as Smith, Adams, Robin, serve as a “blind.” The stage is flooded with Jewish actors and actresses, but their names are very distinguished Anglo-Saxon. Jewish papers often print jokes based on this habit of changing names. For long-distance dealing, or any business that is carried on “unsight and unseen,” the name-veil is very useful. On this account, many Gentiles would be surprised to learn the extent to which they are involved with Jews, whose names give no indication of Jewishness. And this very system, an old American name, coupled with membership in some Christian sect (preferably one of the newer sects), has accounted for some memberships in the Stock Exchange which probably would not otherwise exist.

It is interesting to tabulate the growth of Jewish membership as shown by the old directories of the Exchange.

In the year 1872, with a total of 1,009 members there were 60 Jews.

In 1873, with a total of 1,006 members, the Jewish membership decreased to 49.

In 1890, with membership limited to 1,100 there were 87 Jews.

In 1893, with the same limit of membership, there were 106 Jews.

At the present time, still with the same rigid limitation of membership, there are 276 Jewish members.

It is said that the Jewish membership is really somewhat larger than the last figures indicate, owing to the fact that some of the Jewish members bear non-Jewish names and have adopted some phase of the Christian faith and have cut themselves off, outwardly at least, from the Jewish community.

The figures show, therefore, that Jewish membership increased from 5 7/8 per cent of the total in 1872 to 25 per cent in 1919.

In its reference to the Stock Exchange under the head of “Finance,” the Jewish Encyclopedia states that Jewish membership is “only 128,” “a little more than 10 per cent.” The date of these Jewish statistics is not given. The article quoted has, however, an argumentative as well as informative purpose. The statement concerning the 10 per cent membership on the Exchange is made to call attention to the fact that “Jews form at least 20 per cent of the whole population of New York, and much more than that percentage of the business section.” The Jewish population of New York City has since increased to 25 per cent of the whole, and the membership on the Stock Exchange has increased to the same point.

But it has taken 47 years for the Jews to gain that 25 per cent membership. Their control of the Exchange, at the given rate of progress, is only a question of time.

In spite of these details, it is probably a fact that the Jewish speculators in the New York financial district greatly outnumber the non-Jewish speculators. Speculation and gambling are known historically as special propensities of the Jewish race. While many Jews patronize non-Jewish firms, the great mass of them follow in the speculative path of the leaders of their race. In Europe, where their financial control is more firmly fixed and of longer standing than here, it is rarely that the Jews are caught in speculative failure. They are sometimes found in speculative scandals, but seldom in any scandal involving losses to themselves. As a rule they dabble in “Jewish” securities, and in Wall Street one hears many stories concerning the victories or defeats of “the Jewish following.”

Some of the biggest Jewish sensations which ever occurred in the United States, sensations which disclosed by their lurid light the interlocking of Jewish finance, politics and racial objectives, have been brought to light by occurrences in Wall Street. It is probably the nature of these disclosures which accounts for the strong and silent anti-Jewish resistance which characterizes straight American finance.

Meanwhile, to leave the exalted sphere of Wall Street, banking and brokerage activities, let us descend to the street level of the Curb Market in Broad Street. Here the Jewish brokers flourish in their oil, mining and stock promotion offices. They are so numerous as to give a Semitic cast to the vicinity, as if it were a quarter in a foreign city. It is true that these concerns are frequently operated under non-Jewish names, but that is merely part of the Jew’s consciousness that, in financial matters, whether rightly or wrongly, he is under suspicion. Gentile names carry with them no such handicap.

Going still further down the line, in shadier lanes, in semi-hidden offices, may be seen numerous members of the Jewish race who are identified with no established market which deals with securities. These are the true parasites of the Wall Street environment, they are the camp followers without status. Their work is that of fraudulent stock promotion, and they enter upon it with a zeal and an energy which nothing can dismay. Their purpose is to make money without labor, to get money without giving value, and in this they are immensely successful. It is amazing the number of these men who make immense fortunes; it is equally amazing the continuous crop of unwary, poorly informed, and unsuspecting Gentiles who send their money from all parts of the United States for the worthless bits of paper in which these Jewish parasites deal. It is a most heartless business; it has not even brilliance in its deviltry. It is the old-time shell game in other terms. The operations of these men are mostly conducted by mail or telephone. They deal in “sucker lists,” and they circulate “market letters” by which, under the pretense of giving disinterested advice to investors, they seek to boom their own shady game. These “market letters” are, of course, innocuous to those who are informed and who can read their fraudulent import between the lines, but they are dangerous to the honest but uninformed minds of tens of thousands of thrifty people.

Pursued by detective agencies, watched constantly by the government secret service, exposed by the newspapers, placed on trial in the courts, convicted and sentenced to terms in prison, this type of Jewish swindler is undeterred. Where other men would regard exposure as a lifelong shame, this type regards it simply as a trifling interruption, as a sailor would regard an accidental tumble overboard.

There are lower depths still, where bald theft and violence prevail. The persons most found there are the henchmen of the lower type of speculators. The stories of criminality in Wall Street, a numerous and startling list, involving sometimes the high, but mostly the low, and all marked with a peculiar racial and groupal cast, have at times challenged the attention of the whole world, but as is usually the case with the general publication of such stories, the fundamental explanatory facts are omitted.

But it will be seen, as the story of actual conditions in Wall Street and its financial environs is unrolled, that there are always the two elements—Jewish and non-Jewish. It is perhaps the only non-Jewish coalition in America, this silent resistance which American finance is making to Semitic control. It is, in a sense, unnatural to the American mind, but has been forced as a defensive against the strong offensive operations of the Semitic coalition. If there is ever in the United States a strong non-Jewish combination, it will be the direct result of the ancient Jewish coalition against non-Jews. The condition in the United States at this moment, with regard to the financial question, is this: The Jewish coalition goes lower, but it does not yet go higher than non-Jewish control. It is struggling to go higher, but has thus far been estopped. It is believed that when the people are made aware of what is transpiring, it will be forever estopped.

Why Jews are in New York

The International Jew
— The World’s Foremost Problem

As readers of former articles will remember, the attack upon Capital represented by the disorderly forces who operate under the forged banner of “Progress,” is an attack against Gentile capital only. The only financial managers attacked in the United States are Gentile managers. In England also, the same attack is made. Readers of the newspapers know what strenuous efforts are being made in that country to wreck railroad and coal mine administration by a constant series of strikes. But what readers of newspapers are not told is that the railroad and coal mines are still in Gentile hands, and that the Bolshevist-led strike is a Jewish financial weapon to wreck these forms of Gentile business, that they may easily fall into Jewish hands.

dominique   January 12th, 2009 6:34 am ET

Nona,
No royalties, just surprised that there has been less than 500 people who watched it...
If you have another one, would love to see it...

Bill   January 12th, 2009 6:35 am ET

Nona -

It's good to hear that the pro-Israeli protests are getting so large.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:39 am ET

It was interesting, Linda. Very peaceful. An absolute mob scene on the pro-Israel side. We were trying to work our way from one end of the crowd to the other, but couldn't. It was just a sea of people. But it was very peaceful. Pro-Hamas shouting their slogans and raising their signs on their side of the street; Pro-Israel doing the same thing on theirs. Lots of Israelis telling their personal stories of terror attacks and rockets on their homes and cities and the people they've lost, the injuries they've endured.

Atlanta police all over the place and really great, smiling at the demonstrators and being as supportive as they could be while remaining professional. At least they were to the pro-Israel demonstrators, I assume they treated pro-Hamas as kindly. At one point my friend and I climbed on a wall to see how far the crowd went and they politely asked us to get off the wall! We did, and that was the end of it, but they could have been real jerks at us for being on the wall if they wanted to be.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:40 am ET

Dominique,
I am also surprised to hear that less than 500 people have watched it.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:41 am ET

CNN blogs need an ignore button so you can skip the posts of habitual dumb asses. I've turned my imaginary one on.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:42 am ET

Nona,
Is is nice to know that it was a peaceful protest. That gives me hope!

Bill   January 12th, 2009 6:43 am ET

Nona, Linda -

It looks like the gene pool could use some chlorine. It seems like someone with a couple of extra chomosomes has invaded this space...

Well, gotta work in the moning.

It's been a pleasure. Goodnight!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:43 am ET

Nona
:)
Note to self: It is illegal to stab someone for being stupid!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:44 am ET

Night Bill,
I'll work on some Gene Therapy!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:46 am ET

I like this one, Dominique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0NSRCGnhQI

I think it's very important that Palestinians are treated fairly and with respect and dignity. They deserve that, no question about it. But supporting Hamas is the same thing as supporting al-Qaeda or the Taliban, and if those groups are (heaven forbid) ever in charge of Canada or Mexico, I hope the USA is just as diligent about taking them out as Israel is being with Hamas.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:47 am ET

Night, Bill! Hope to see you soon!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:49 am ET

Have either of you seen the 15 seconds one? If you haven't, I highly recommend it.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:52 am ET

Yes, I have seen that one, Linda. It is excellent!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:53 am ET

Dominique - I was just re-reading the thread and I hope you do not think my habitual dumb ass comment was directed at you. I assure you: IT WAS NOT!

Linda   January 12th, 2009 6:53 am ET

I think it says a lot. I cried the first 3 times I watched it.

dominique   January 12th, 2009 6:56 am ET

it s a good one nona,but starts "in the middle of the movie'

Was hoping for a more historical one that gives reasons or tries to find explanations... Not just those guys are bad, look what they did , what they said....

If you find another one looking for answers and trying to understand either side instead of just blaming let me know...

This one somehow provided an extra piece of the puzzle that I did not know about...

Think you cannot find a solution when your starting point is that the others are bad (they do bad things, but might be reasons, explanations – again not that it justifies anything...,,,, whatever side you stand on

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 6:57 am ET

Speaking of America, i found this Video very interesting

If Americans Knew What Israel Is Doing! VIDEO WAS CENSORED!

Nona   January 12th, 2009 6:59 am ET

Have you read "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters, Dominique? I highly recommend it.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 7:00 am ET

Hunk,
Thanks for the video, you know I always like to see both sides of all of this.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 7:01 am ET

I have not read it Nona. I will have to get it.

dominique   January 12th, 2009 7:03 am ET

Nona,
No I have not read it..... Is it a book, or an article?

Linda   January 12th, 2009 7:05 am ET

Nona, Just ordered it from amazon :)

Nona   January 12th, 2009 7:06 am ET

It's excellent, Linda. What I like about it is that it's written by a really credible journalist with no real agenda and has impeccable documentation and sourcing. She pretty much unravels the UN paper trail, documents all the way back before the Balfour Agreement, etc. It's just a good historical documentation and the conclusions they led her to.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 7:06 am ET

It's a book, Dominique. It's smaller than it looks - it's thick but a lot of it is appendices and bibliography.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 7:07 am ET

It looks very interesting. Thanks for the info. I can't wait to get it and read it.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 7:10 am ET

Well,
I must get off of here! Big day tomorrow, but I will try to return if I am feeling up to it.
All of you have a great night and sleep well! :)

Nona   January 12th, 2009 7:10 am ET

Let me know what you think if you read it, guys. I think I'm gonna hit the sack too. I'm exhausted.

Linda   January 12th, 2009 7:12 am ET

Great to see you again, Nona. I'll catch up with you later.
Night ALL!

Marlon T. Lacsamana   January 12th, 2009 7:12 am ET

Gaza and Palestine are conquered land, and conquered lands produces heroes and martyrs.

cubfan   January 12th, 2009 7:17 am ET

I bring great news from the front in Gaza! The New York Times is reporting Hamas is losing its will to fight and the resistance is deteriorating quickly. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/12/world/middleeast/12mideast.html?_r=1&ref=world
Israel was right all along to pursue a crushing defeat of Hamas and embarrassing the cowardly Hamas leadership hiding like rats in Damascus.
It is great to see Hamas was all talk and the fighters want to live and not die like fools on the battlefield. This war and defeat of Hamas in Gaza is the beginning of a new future for the people of Israel and all of the Palestinians who are choosing life over martyrdom. Hamas and the Influence Iran held over the Palestinian people is finished, peace and prosperity will soon reign for all the people of the Middle East.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 7:42 am ET

I never met a single Israeli either face by face or through the Cyberspace who consider himself a Mideastern, as if his Israel is on other planet and not part of the middle-east .... its really funny and hilarious and sometime quite very stupid.

Ashley   January 12th, 2009 7:47 am ET

There is this google video which help you understand this conflict a little better called "Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land". Please watch this and pass it on to those who you think are also misinformed.

THIS INDEPENDENT VIEDO HAS OPENED MY EYES about this conflict. I AM FEELING VERY BETRAYED. WE DESERVE TO KNOW THE WHOLE TRUTH !!!

Ashley   January 12th, 2009 7:49 am ET

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565

HERE IS THE LINK.

cubfan   January 12th, 2009 8:31 am ET

Hunk you are a Moron

Bill   January 12th, 2009 8:38 am ET

i couldn't sleep. I was reading and came across this link. It's a video about Hamas from an Arab's prespective. It really sums up what Hamas is to the Palestinian people.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 8:46 am ET

'Stray mortar' hit UN Gaza school

Israeli defence officials are now saying one of the deadliest recent incidents in Gaza, when a UN school was bombed, was caused by a stray mortar.

The attack killed about 40 Palestinian civilians sheltering at the Fakhura school in Jabaliya on Tuesday.

Initially, Israeli officials accused Hamas of firing from the school and using civilians as "human shields".

Read the full story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7823204.stm

Abba   January 12th, 2009 8:48 am ET

Ashley – I just looked at that video and it is propaganda at it's best.
I live here and it has taken different scenes out of context ... like that buldozer scene in the beginning is actually a settlement being torn down, I remember it when it happened.

Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in Peace and a two state solution, but with a partner who wants the same.

I have been living in Israel for 10 years and this is what I have come to:

1. Yes the treatment of the Palestinians (jordanians really ,but thats whole other story) has been historically horrifying. This was mainly until Oslo for no reason. After Oslo, when the Israeli's started to strive for real peace, factions within the Palestinian people simpley could not accept changing from what they have come due to the oppression they saw over previous years.

Leaders who are persistent in extreme violence and terror to acheive their goals, all of Israel, are what is causing the continued hardships.

I can't tell you how many times the check points have gone down, easing movement, and money has been sent, just to see it answered with a bus bombing or shooting attacks. Unforturnately, the fact remains; There are palestinians that just want to live in peace in their own land that are paying the price for the extremists that won't put aside the armed resistance.

I could go on and on, but this is enough for now.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 8:49 am ET

cubfan,

The link from BBC shows how is a Moron.

Check it out .

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 8:55 am ET

The slogan for Hamas is "God is it's target, the prophet is it's model, the Qu'ran it's constitution: Jihad is it's path and death for the sake of God is the loftiest of it's wishes". Hamas states that its objective is to support the oppressed and wronged and "to bring about justice, and defeat injustice, in word and deed". Hamas believes that "the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (trust) consecrated for future Muslim generations untill Judgement Day", and as such , the land cannot be negotiated away by any political leader. Hamas' Covenent states that "so called peaceful solutions and International confrences" are "in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistence Movement", stating "there is no solution for the Palestinian question exept through Jihad".

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 8:55 am ET

it is a shame of "civilized"(!) world to allow such massacre..

What pity is that US and Israel is seeding endless hatred and violence which will last for generations... how pity for the people of the area..

Brian   January 12th, 2009 8:56 am ET

Contrary to common perception, Jewish anti-Zionism is not restricted exclusively to the well know Jewish anti-Zionist movements such as Satmar and Neturei Karta.

There are in fact many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called "State of Israel" is that of the unadulterated Torah position that any form of Zionism is heresy and that the existence of the so-called "State of Israel" is illegitimate.

No one has had to create any antagonism between our Torah and Zionism because such antagonism exists by virtue of the essence of Judaism itself, which can never tolerate the heresy of Zionism.

Zionism is wrong from the Torah viewpoint, not because many of its adherents are lax in practice or even anti-religious, but because its fundamental principle conflicts with the Torah.

Unfortunately, due to many undesirable factors, the view of Torah-true Jewry has been concealed from the general public...

ben   January 12th, 2009 8:58 am ET

Hunk:

They don't belong to the middle-east, because they actually are not middle-easterns, they are europeans, africans, asians and i dont know where they have been wondering. But the main thing to them is that they are the chosen people or race just like the aryans, full of hate, racism, cruelty, lies, every thing bad in all aspects of humanity.

They cannot argue and they cannot answer without a lie. see about the fakhura school story.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 9:00 am ET

Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada, the United States, the European Union, Japan and Israel. Hamas is banned in Jordon. Austrailia and the United Kingdom list only the military wing a terrorist organization. The United States and the European Union both implemented restrictive measures against Hamas on an International level.

shairoz   January 12th, 2009 9:01 am ET

Palestinians were in Palestine since 700 A.D. A group of dispersed Jews comes and decides to kick everybody out – although, people were coexisting peacefully before – and reenact their Nazi Holocaust experiences....only it was for a righteous cause .....now for the last 60 years, the indigenous people and their descendants keep fighting back for their rights, and American and Israeli policy makers condone genocide & ethnic cleansing.....something evil about this. Truth hurts doesn't it when it doesn't agree with our egos.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/ref-nakba.html

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 9:04 am ET

Ben,

They filled the whole blog with that carp, this will bring them to haag that's why they covering it with other lies and more bullshit.

We want to see that justice is served

ben   January 12th, 2009 9:11 am ET

yes nick, any objections? and thats all muslims stand and not slogan. even if abbas reaches any agreement after aver 30 years of negotiations it will be only periodically, until we get more powerful and we will resume our stand.

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 9:15 am ET

Ben
So what your saying is you support this kind of talk (Hamas) or am I mistaken?

Nick-Canada   January 12th, 2009 9:16 am ET

I stand against Hamas

ben   January 12th, 2009 9:23 am ET

Nick:
I thought some bloggers here suggested you remove Canada from your name because you don't represent the country.

Dont forget also PLO was a terrosist organisation and listed by the above mentioned countries and more, but when they accepted negotiations their leader Yaser Arafat was given a noble prize.

So my friend don't believe what the western states double standards and interpretation or definition of any given word.

Hoping you do the homework yourself of finding the truth.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 9:35 am ET

Have any one ever heard of any one blaming the Satan for all the bad things happening around him .... we will blame only incidents , a car crash, luck.

The Satan here is Israel that is brining the whole world to a one sided story, we should curse the devil and the Satan which form Israel, a whole school with its refugees in the land of refugees made for refugees bombed by three shells and the fire was not from within the school, in the coming days you will all know that there were no firing from any where.... don't be surprised its something the Satan cant mastermind that , only Israel the master of all evil.

ben   January 12th, 2009 9:40 am ET

Nick:
I am pro Hamas

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 9:44 am ET

For those who seem amnesiac about history and some clear facts :

From religion point of view, Islam has never been a real enemy to Christianity and Jewish until Napoleon Boneparte' s Egyptian attack. Until that time, Islam thought that these religions were the very same massage of the very same God, and respected as such.

There are plenty of references in Kur'an to the sons of Israel and son of Mary ( Jesus ) as messengers of the very same religion. Muslim people treated Christians and Jews with some respect that these were the people of the "message". The word "infidel" was not for those Christians and Jews since they were also the followers of the same message. Infidel is for those who do not believe.

The word Jihad referenced in Kur'an is the act of spreading the "message" to those who had no knowledge of God ( this action expels Christianity and Jewish by definition since they were also the followers of the message on a different way).

From Islam point of view, the conflicts between islamic powers and christian powers were based on the land not belief. On the contrary, Christian crusades ( also Jihad ) were against the believers of Islam from very beginning.

Until 16th century, Christian communities were not supposed to be powerful enough to be an enemy ( was a mistake by Islamic powers of that time ). Christians were expanding their science, military technology, wealth and land. The race was already lost by Muslims. But it was to late.

During 16th century, the attack of Egypt from Napoleon has unlighted the Islamic powers that the christian powers in Europe became too powerful and aggressive to cope with.. It was time to descend..a very late realization of a thousand year hate..

Conflict of a thousand year..which does not suit 21st century..

we understand today that the "crusades" are still ongoing..

ben   January 12th, 2009 9:53 am ET

Hunk:

The satan goes to school in Israel

miriam   January 12th, 2009 9:56 am ET

Hunk,

the IDF denies that explanation. Just because the bbc may be gullible and only interested in believing what terrorists have to say (freedom of expression etc) it doesn't mean that what they report is true.

The 'neutral' aid organizations are not neutral. UNRWA is run mostly by Palestinian locals, from all factions, including Hamas.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 10:01 am ET

miriam,

Its not rumors its the BBC, the same channel that brought to the world the lthe concentration camp in former Yugoslavia which shocked the world.

In the beginning the defeated IDF said they are at the roof top of the school and now you accept that was a big lie and say its was from outside the compound , tomorrow there will be no firing taking place at all.

Will you take the word of a criminal , even cough red handed they will deny all charges, are you insane, the UN spokesperson denied any firing from the school and was made a lair by the IDF and up to now and tomorrow they will keep denying …. this will bring them to the international criminal court for crime against humanity , its a very serious charge, guess who is going to press charge the UN itself.

Tomorrow is never late

ben   January 12th, 2009 10:09 am ET

Hunk ,

Miriam is just a sample of those who lie and belives their lie, she is the satan kids teacher in our occupied land

miriam   January 12th, 2009 10:09 am ET

Hunk,

I replied to you on the previous blog.

The IDF has said that it is investigating and knows that soldiers were responding to Hamas fire.It is still investigating and does not reveal its findings until the report is complete.

Anything you have heard to the contrary is false.

The UNRWA spokesman relies on his information from his employees on the ground, which includes Hamas members.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 10:18 am ET

happy dreams Miriam, sleep well...

miriam   January 12th, 2009 10:23 am ET

At least happy dreams mean a clear conscience!

ben   January 12th, 2009 10:24 am ET

The occuping force said a lot before admiting that it was an error that they hit the school by mistake, now miriam says we still investigate and don't you people believe what we have seen, heard because its false,
so i suggest we appoint miriam to go there and tell us what happened actually because unrwa is run by hamas members.

does this zionist have a limit to their pathetic lies? i wonder???

William   January 12th, 2009 10:24 am ET

Maybe this war will teach Hamas to quit sending rockets into Israel.

For all the talk of Israels response, everyone has to remember that Hamas has been asking for it.

When the idiots stop their agression towards Israel, Im sure Israel would happily stop retaliating.

William   January 12th, 2009 10:27 am ET

Also – anyone who refers to Israel as "the occupation" needs to get over it. They are a member of the UN for crying out loud. Israel is a county, just as valid as any other, with every right to respond to attack.

miriam   January 12th, 2009 10:29 am ET

The IDF has not admitted anything other than that it was responding to Hamas fire originating from somewhere in the vicinity of the school. Full-stop. Period.

It is still investigating.

Anything else is not true.

ben   January 12th, 2009 10:29 am ET

conscience LOL do you people have that, or another lie

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 10:32 am ET

mariam,

You are so bathetic liar and its really astonishing that you call yourself a Mariam, you good to be on AliBaba story hidden on the olive jars among the 40 thieves.

miriam   January 12th, 2009 10:34 am ET

Plenty. That's why we look after each other.And others.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 10:34 am ET

oh yes.. clear conscience of wishful thinking...

At least we do not and will NEVER sleep for the sake of innocent children being blown by Evil' s hi-tech weapons arsenal..

We will always keep our mind and eyes open on the guilds of war criminals..

We will always be after them..to bring them to Justice..

They will never feel safe nor will have happy dreams..

War criminals and baby killers do not deserve resting in peace either..

may take generations by generations , but at the end the Justice will prevail..

as said thousands years ago "super omnia vincit veritas" – "truth conquers all"

Johann From South Africa   January 12th, 2009 10:36 am ET

What type of nation murder innocent women and children? (sic)

ben   January 12th, 2009 10:37 am ET

yes yes yes liar they didn't admit believe that lie

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 10:38 am ET

we should not try to tell the "truth" to a mossad agent anyways..

miriam   January 12th, 2009 10:41 am ET

"Truth conquers above all".

I hope it does.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 10:42 am ET

and one of the real reasons of US & ISRAELI invasion of Gaza :

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11680

guess what... off-shore natural gas reserves of course..

Johann From South Africa   January 12th, 2009 10:43 am ET

i read a report earlier that israel requested permission and certain assistance from the usa to attack iran! What's up with them?(Israel) Are they trying to pick a fight with everyone?
Israel reminds me of that small kid at school that always looked for trouble with the other kids and once provoked a fight, runs to his big brother (USA)

miriam   January 12th, 2009 10:46 am ET

The Turk,

No, it's the gold. That's why Hamas has been digging under every house in Gaza!!!!!

ben   January 12th, 2009 10:48 am ET

Miriam read this people of conscious souls what they say about you:

“We consider ourselves to be comrades in arms to the Palestinian Arabs in their struggle for the liberation of Palestine. There is not a single citizen in South Africa who is not ready to stand by his Palestinian brothers in their legitimate fight against the Zionist racists.” — Nelson Mandela

“I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical consideration, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain — especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state.” — Albert Einstein, 1932.

“My sympathies are all with the Jews…But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me…Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.” — Gandhi, 1938

Sunantha   January 12th, 2009 10:51 am ET

Though I live far away from the battle field, I share the fear of the children and the despair of the parents who don't even have any choices to protect their children. I wish this stupid battle and bomb stop immediately. I don't understand who will gain when lots of people are suffering. Hope 'no more war' and people live in peace.

esther   January 12th, 2009 10:51 am ET

That.s the problem with Midle East you always talk with simplified speeches like winners and loosers, always using words like revenge, anger, death and this is a situation too complex for that simplification...

PEACE is all what you need. In Latinamerica jewish and arabs live in peace respecting each other, even with all the problems we have in this crazy region, different religions can live peacefully here, no arabs or jewish trying to kill each other.

The key is to learn that everybody has rights to live keeping their religion, traditions and opinions as long as everybody respect each other and nobody harm inocents.

No Hamas killing people, No Hezbollah killing people and No Iraeli Army killing people... Nobody has right to destroy another community just because religion or ethnic reasons and this apply equal to Israel Army and Hamas and Hezbollah... So lets be rational and stop the violence both sides.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 10:51 am ET

you are right .. it is a war crime to dig wholes under houses...

"the clear conscience" tells us so it is..

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 10:51 am ET

I just heard that the brave Hamas fighters who have joined their brothers in hell have been given 72 unfired rockets each. They couldn't find anymore virgins, especially little boys. The demand was too high. I hear they share the fire with their hero Adolf Hitler.

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/musnazi.html

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 10:58 am ET

Jonas?

do have news and info connection from Hell?...

Do you have any relations to the top management of Hell?

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 11:00 am ET

The Turk,
Yes, his name is Mohammed. Direct line.

Carlos   January 12th, 2009 11:01 am ET

What is happening in Gaza is an height pf BARBARIANISM. I am myslef a jew based in Argentina. I feel ashamed of this barbarious acts by the strongest nation with the best and latest ammunitions. Whom they are killing? Helpless and Homeless people.

I think we have frgotte the Holocaust. We are good learners and stuents. We have learned from Germans and are doing the same. Shame on our people.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 11:05 am ET

"War criminals and baby killers do not deserve resting in peace either.."

the murderer of shalheet paz, the 10 months old baby girl in her fathers arms, murdered by a palestinian sharpshooter terrorist

the murderers of the pregnant mother and her four daughters by headshots, murdered by palestinian terrorists

the mob, including palestinian policemen, who lynched and then mutilated the bodies of the two reserve soldiers who made a wrong turn in ramallah

those who sent the disco bomber who murdered 23 young boys and girls, those who sent the suicide bomber to natanya where he murdered 21 people who had gathered for a religious holiday, those who sent the suicide bomber to haifa, where he murdered innocent patrons of a restaurant, including arabs!!!

etc etc etc

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 11:09 am ET

لا حول ولا قوة الا بالله

ben   January 12th, 2009 11:10 am ET

Jonas

its typical zionist response to curse, when they have no more lies to spread, or having no answers to questions or comments directed to like the Albert Einstein's above.

And i suggest before speaking or telling any thing about your master Mr. Adolph Hitler you should bow.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 11:11 am ET

a suicide bomber arrives in paradise and is confronted with his 72 virgins

he complains to the keeper that all are extremely ugly

the keeper explains: " why do you think they are still virgins?"

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 11:11 am ET

Oh Jonas, you have been tricked by Hell's top manager...

Mohammed, Jesus and Moses are by Gods side sitting and cursing on you..

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 11:13 am ET

Ben
Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer!

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 11:14 am ET

Mohammad Al Adura , was murdered when he was on his father lab.by the same Army of cowards and Ayoub swam on his mother blood for four days and this on this war.... your crime is louder and more vicious.

Its your style to claim not to kill Christ ... ask Gibson.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 11:14 am ET

"The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann's best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures."

Adolf Eichmann`s deputy Dieter Wisliceny in his Nuremberg Trials testimony.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 11:18 am ET

The boad carrying medical supplies and doctors is getting ready to leave Lebanon now heading back to Gaza in another attempt to break the Israeli blockade on Gaza. Pray for them to arrive safely.

Professor   January 12th, 2009 11:19 am ET

Oh and I forgot to mention

Its the occupation stupids...

Professor   January 12th, 2009 11:22 am ET

The Nazi Israeli Forces are still digging their graves deeper in hell.

ben   January 12th, 2009 11:22 am ET

there comes the big satan teacher dan perman, so what the zionists are doing now its a revenge to the mentioned killings above?

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 11:22 am ET

The Turk,
Our information is diffinitely not the same. My connections tell me that there is only God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. No mention of Mohammed. Unless, of course, you phone the other number where you will find Adolf and a whole array of Islamic extremists.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 11:23 am ET

Professor,

Do you have an idea on how many one where there with Moses Peace be upon him when he opened the sea. any figure ...

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 11:24 am ET

hunk,

you do not inform youself well

a french court recently found that there are great doubts about the version shown on french TV and later all over.

so try not to spread false allegations, will you?

Bossman   January 12th, 2009 11:25 am ET

I really dont understand what kind of war is this.. IDF dont kill militants but civilians, mostly women and children.. The millitants rockets takes more than 4 munites before its fires... so just imagine even if the person is taking a 4 munites walk. How long will he walk.. ?They will destroy the whole of GAZA without achieving their ultimate goal.. Let the IDF come out clear and say we are killing your people as a punishment for the rockets , Because nobody see this as a war.. Why should they stop and allow medical aid and continue to kill the same sick and crippled who have been treated... I think only God knows why this disastrous situation is going on i GAZA. Its true they are disturbing ISRAEL with attacks, but the situation can be solved by some kind of talks.. Moslems or arabs in europe are quite different though some are problematics but we dont need them more up here. Too much refugee and the bad ones plan terror against humanity which is not fair.. LET THERE BE PEACEFUL RELATIONS....

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 11:28 am ET

i am honored to be called a teacher

i am also happy to note that ben agrees the perpetrators of these heinous crimes must be punished, thaks ben for your support on this matter

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 11:28 am ET

Poor.

There are hundreds millions of real human beings watching and cursing on Israeli war criminals. There are enough people immune to that Israels poisonous PR propaganda.

We understand thoroughly pro-Israeli feelings of guilt and anger. It is the same feeling of convicted standing in front of the court of Justice.

Unfortunately, there you have no place among the humanist communities.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 11:31 am ET

Dan perman,

Couldn't understand you, false allegation and french TV .... have you dialed the correct number ?

ben   January 12th, 2009 11:32 am ET

Jonas:

Do you think Nelson Mandela, Albert Einstein and Gandhi are stupid to say what they have said??

because after that blog you started cursing!!!

miriam   January 12th, 2009 11:33 am ET

Ben,

Einstein was a Zionist. You obviously don't understand the quote here.
He supported the Balfour declaration and had reservations about the idea of dividing up the British Mandate.

This quote refers to his discomfort with the idea that a Jewish state would have to exist in defined borders and need to have an army to defend herself. His ideal was for a Jewish homeland where Jews could live in peace with her Arab neighbours and with no need to have borders that needed defending.

He supported Israel when it was founded and reluctantly turned down the offer to become president, citing his lack of inter-personary skills.

He bequeathed his will to the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 11:34 am ET

22.5.2008

French broadcaster France2 lost its case and a large portion of its credibility yesterday when its appeals court called their Al-Dura story a hoax and reversed a lower-court ruling on a defamation case. Philippe Karsenty was vindicated in his criticism of France2 when he called their video of a supposed murder of a Palestinian child by Israeli soldiers staged for propaganda purposes. As PJM’s Richard Landes notes, the entire unedited footage of France2 contained a long series of laughably staged “injuries”, prompting him to refer to France2 as “Pallywood”:
The French court of appeals, presided over by the redoubtable Madame Laurence Trébucq, has reversed the decision of a lower court — the (in)famous “Chambre 17″ that specializes in verbal crimes had found Philippe Karsenty guilty of defaming France2 after Karsenty, in a 2004 article, claimed (as have many familiar with the dossier), that the scene was staged. The unexpected reversal by the court of appeals represents the first major European breach of the blanket of silence that has greeted any effort of critics to call into question France2’s presentation of the Al Dura footage as actual news.
The Muhammad al Durah affair represents one of the most revealing and distressing cases in the mainstream media’s coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict. On September 30, 2000, France2’s Middle East correspondent, Charles Enderlin, ran footage of what looked like a boy and his father, together hiding behind a barrel, “the target of fire coming from the Israeli position.” According to this report, the boy was killed and the father badly wounded. The footage went around the world instantly, provoking outrage and violence against both Israel and Jewish communities in the Arab world and in Europe.
France2 compounded these violations of journalistic ethics by attempting to block any criticism. Ridiculing the proponents of the “staged hypothesis” as conspiracy theorists on the order of 9-11 truthers or holocaust deniers, France2 sued independent French citizens who had the nerve to criticize them for their journalistic incompetence. …
France2’s legal maneuver backfired when they were called to show the court the raw footage of their Palestinian cameraman, Talal abu Rahmah, whose camera work and testimony lie at the heart of the accusation against the Israeli army. They found themselves forced to cut the most embarrassing scenes before showing the footage to the court, and to explain to the court why the remaining footage had so many suspicious

miriam   January 12th, 2009 11:37 am ET

The same France2 that last week admitted using false footage for a supposed attack by Israel in Gaza.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 11:40 am ET

Professor? Professor?, Professor?
Nazis? Please my supporter of the brave Hamas fighters, the facts are not in your favor. As the Palestinians people were great supporters of the anti-Christ Adolf Hitler, don't you think that it is a bit rich of you to call Jews by that term? Perhaps your forefathers could explain the term "Nazism" to you. They embraced it with open arms.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 11:40 am ET

continued

had so many suspicious scenes.
The reversal and the resultant implosion of France2’s credibility shows the lengths that some will go to paint the Israelis as the source of all woe in the region. Instead of reporting objective truth, the “journalists” at France2 decided to propagate lies as a means of telling the narrative they prefer. They couldn’t actually find examples of Israeli soldiers deliberately killing unarmed children, but France2 believed that they did, so they staged it and passed it off as truth. And unfortunately, they found many people who believed them despite the many inconsistencies in the video — such as the child moving after his supposed death and the lack of blood in the scene, rather odd for a gut shot.
The reversal upholds an important principle for freedom of speech — the freedom of criticism. Karsenty dared to criticize France2 for their hoax, and the broadcaster decided to wage a campaign of intimidation against him rather than attempt to defend its propaganda. They succeeded in the lower court and could have forced Karsenty into silence. Instead, Karsenty persevered and eventually forced France2 to release all of its footage, a step they had resisted from the first. That showed the depth of dishonesty not just for the team that created the al-Dura hoax, but for the entire organization that deliberately hid the truth and tried to silence Karsenty through legal action.

shairoz   January 12th, 2009 11:42 am ET

This suicide rhetoric is so lame – especially since it is coming from non-muslims...and lamer still when it comes from ignorant muslims. I suggest that if you want to comment on details of another's religion that you do your homework from proper sources.

It's bizarre that an unqualified laymen would try and do an assessment or commentary on details of scripture. Get off it, because it undermines your credibility. And to clarify what you clearly choose to misunderstand and propagate:

Islam (Submission) condemns suicide as much as it condemns oppression and aggression against others. While the Muslims (Submitters) are commanded to stand for their rights and defend themselves, their properties and their freedom they are told to first resort to peace advocate tolerance and disregard the ignorant. The following verses from the Quran show how the Quran describes suicide, such an important issue in our life that was made the center of the conflict in the Middle East lately.

(2:195) You shall spend in the cause of GOD; do not throw yourselves with your own hands into destruction. You shall be charitable; GOD loves the charitable.

(4:29) O you who believe, do not consume each others' properties illicitly – only mutually acceptable transactions are permitted. You shall not kill yourselves. GOD is Merciful towards you.

(4:30) Anyone who commits these transgressions, maliciously and deliberately, we will condemn him to Hell. This is easy for GOD to do.

Suicide bombing by young uninformed Muslim youths has been carried out almost routinely as a mean of revenge in the Middle East conflict. It is mainly done to avenge their oppression, occupation and loss of freedom they have been experiencing all their life. It is carried out by the youth who lost all the hope to a peaceful settlement as they witnessed their families, loved ones, neighbors, and the innocent bystanders die or tortured at the hand of a merciless occupying force. Despite these intolerable situation no permission can be found in Islam to avenge by suicide bombing or by targeting the innocent civilians. These young desperate Muslim youth have been taught what is NOT in the Quran, and what was never promised by God in the Holy book.

As the verses quoted above show, suicide in any form is condemned by God, no excuse given under any circumstances. The Quran does not promise Heaven (Paradise) to those who commit suicide but rather warn of condemnation to Hell. The promise of paradise or of virgin wives in Heaven for those suicide bombers and those who kill the innocent civilians has no basis in Islam and cannot be found anywhere in the Quran. These fabrications taught to these poor desperate Muslim youths originated probably from the man made books of Hadiths and Sunna that were condemned by God and by the prophet Muhammad himself who told his followers to follow ONLY the Quran.

Suicide is a state of disbelief and loss of faith that is condemned by God throughout the Quran. In the Quran, God commands the believers never to despair or lose hope and instead work for a brighter future.

(12:87) "....................... None despairs of GOD's grace except the disbelieving people.

http://www.submission.org/jihad/suicide.html

ben   January 12th, 2009 11:44 am ET

Jonas

Is Mosses not with them, only God, Jessus & Holy Ghost, you stupid.

Maybe with the others, what do you think? stupid infidel.

Dan

yes you are a great teacher of Satan, i am greatful you are how honoured .

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 11:45 am ET

dan perman,

Its was never confirmed ... its doubtful ... but any suspicion is for the defendant .... .

john germany   January 12th, 2009 11:53 am ET

Whatever one´s affiliation, my heart aches for the people of Gaza. "The turbid ebb and flow of human misery", in a poet´s eye. This same poet then writes..... "for the world, which seems to lie before us like a land of dreams, so various so beautiful so new – hath really neither joy, nor hope, nor love, nor light, nor certitude, nor peace....nor help for pain." The clash of ignorant armies continues.... What a sorry state is humankind.

CS   January 12th, 2009 11:53 am ET

Oh God help the children, Dan Perman is allowed to brainwash children. Here comes another generation of Islamophobes.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikum_olam/2006/9/23/shooting-spree-at-florida-mosque/

This will show the coverage of one of many islamic mosques targeted by racist groups. So I'm not surprised to see so many people expressing their hatred for islamic people. After all.. they have brown skin, and the european jews in israel have pale skin. It's no surprise to me at all that so many Americans would support Israel, even though they broke the cease fire first. And even though they; force Palestine to get minimal amounts of aide and defence suppliments from underground tunnels because they have blockaded ports surrounding Gaza for the last year; Americans will still find a reason to support Israel. Some even try to use the Bible. Some people are actually dumb enough to misinterpret the Holy Bible enough to support evil deeds. It does not matter who is doing it. Do any of you think Christ would condone this behavior from Israel today. Because I don't. Meanwhile, the Jews don't care why you support them, as long as you do. In fact. They sit back and laugh! Why? Because they refer to non Jews as Goyim. This means human cattle. It means that Everyone in the rest of the world are either soul-less, or the spawn of satan. So just keep being blind obediants. Your government thanks you, and Israel thanks you.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 11:59 am ET

Jonas,

What does your God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost, commented about "Inquisition : the honorable ways of successful removal of devil from Body and Soul of the 27 million Christians" ?

Do they support it ?

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 12:00 pm ET

Nona, sorry I missed you, Nice to meet you too.

ben   January 12th, 2009 12:01 pm ET

Miriam

Even you lie on something written crystal clear by a zionist??? what do you think you know english than an english man?? or is it another definition of stupid liar.

by the way how about you translate Nelson Mandela and Gandhi comments for us to understand??

Dan Perman, Miriam

Maybe France 2 is operated by pro Hamas members?

You know even calling you liars will be unfair to you, because you have overpassed its meaning.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 12:01 pm ET

Ben,
Normally, I would let you drown in the depths of your own ignorance, but your brainless response and obvious lack of knowledge of the Christian faith wants me to respond. God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost is the Trinity. Three-in-one, One-in-three. Understand? Moses is not God. I don't use the word stupid lightly, but boy, are you stupid or what?

miriam   January 12th, 2009 12:01 pm ET

CS

If you spent any time in the Middle East, you'd know that not all Arabs or Muslims are 'dark-skinned.' Nor are all European Jews 'pale-skinned'.

Goy, singular for goyim, means 'nation'. It was used refering to the Jewish nation before being used to refer to any other nation.

More lies.

Sarah   January 12th, 2009 12:04 pm ET

goodmorning everyone.

CS   January 12th, 2009 12:05 pm ET

Jonas. Do you beleive that Governments represent their people anymore? If you do, I just ask you to take a look at president Bush's approval ratings among The American public. Throughout history, the powers that be have done what they wanted to...not what was best for the people. Like the hebrew leaders of the days of my savior, Jesus Christ. They ordered the slaying of the one who performed miracles right before them. I mean I have to go on faith, but those murderers had proof of it all, and they still killed the son of the living God. The people did not want this, just as I'm sure the people of Palestine don't want war.
And I know..you're going to come back with "THEN WHY DID THEY VOTE FOR HAMAS?" My answer to this is simple. They would rather fight for their freedom, than beg for it. Those people are, and have been being opressed by a NAZI regim since 1948. I know Hamas is not the most diplomatic group...But at least they will fight for their rights instead of begging for them.

miriam   January 12th, 2009 12:06 pm ET

Ben,

I'm not the one lying. You wanted an explanation and you got it. It's the truth and you can twist it as much as you want, but you can't change it.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 12:08 pm ET

Jonas,

what is interesting is that Jesus become God in 325 AD after the declaration of Constantin the Emperor ( who was Sun-God follower at that time ) in Nikea Consul.. very interesting..

ben   January 12th, 2009 12:15 pm ET

CHRIST killers:

There is a scriptural basis for the "Jews killed Jesus" claim:

Now it was the governor's custom at the Feast to release a prisoner chosen by the crowd. At that time they had a notorious prisoner, called Barabbas.

So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, "Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him.

While Pilate was sitting on the judge's seat, his wife sent him this message: "Don't have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him."

But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.

"Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the governor. "Barabbas," they answered.

"What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked. They all answered, "Crucify him!"

"Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!"

When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"

All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children".

CS   January 12th, 2009 12:16 pm ET

Miriam. Technically, Goy means Gentile, or non-Jew. But as I have grown up boardering a city that is predominantly Hacedic, my many previous encounters with collegues, friends and just every day dealings have confirmed that Gentiles were as "cattle" to them. Not significant, less than, not fovored by God, etc, etc. Which is funny to me, because, in the books of Kings, and Chronicles, it seems that your people have really angered God..what with all the worshipping of baal, and Sodam and Gomorrah, and the whole..constantly forsaking God thing.

Elie Raymond   January 12th, 2009 12:18 pm ET

Sorry to hear about your and your families plight just as I am sorry to hear the families running for sheler every time a KASSAM is on its way
Hope that yours and our suffering end soon

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 12:18 pm ET

The Turk,
Wow, do we have to go that far back? I'm not sure what the official stance of the Pope is, but I, as a descendant of the persecuted Christians, certainly don't think that I would support it. As I'm not a Catholic, I don't know how their inner circles work.

blood is red   January 12th, 2009 12:20 pm ET

Palestinians are sinking in a sea of misery and world turn out to be colorblind with pink sunglasses made in USA supplied by Israel!

nernd   January 12th, 2009 12:23 pm ET

I am German of jewish decent and I have to ask with all the media coverage and all the demonstrating, who was demonstrating and where was the media in all the time rocketrs hit Israel?? Where where all the demosntrates when Hamas declared that Isreal has no right to excist? when a president of a nation, Iran, declares Israel shoud be wiped off the map? this lunatic has possibly nuclear weapons soon.
No media no demonstration than, only now when israel rightfully defends itself, it is exremly bad for the normal people, but they support Hamas. remember when Germany was liberated from a war criminal and bombs fell on Germany, not all Germans where Nazis, but most of them stayed quieter in the years of terror, should the than Allied forces not have attacked Germany? In such a case the result would have been devastating.
I think most people are loosing a little focus here, Hamas is a terror network, the US is fighting a war in Irak, the Nato is figthing a war in Afganistan against Terror, why is Isreal not permitted to defend itself??
I hope peace will come, the price is high, but Hamas has to except Israel to achieve peace.
I shall pray for Israel and its people, but also for the innocent in Gaza and that they will see Hamas for what it is

CS   January 12th, 2009 12:23 pm ET

Who was it who assisted Judas, in the capture of Christ? Why was Christ even placed under arrest?
When Jesus went into the temple and tuned the tables of the money changers over, and called them what they were "HYPOCRITES!", this, and the fact that the hebrew leaders were very vain, and insisted that their ways of worshiping and living were more devine than the Christ himself.

CS   January 12th, 2009 12:25 pm ET

Blood. Nicely put.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 12:30 pm ET

Well Jonas, you have much to say about Mohammed then Jesus...?

( remember your curses above? )

You are not Catholic Christian... but a Christian right..?

and you have much "knowledge" of Mohammed then Jesus?... very interesting..

I was raised as muslim ( now a-theist ) .. read every sacred book.. old testament, new testament, torah, kur'an... even heretic gospels ( gospel of Judas as well ) ... just to open my eyes on the truth...

And I feel so deeply sorry for your blind and foolish ignorance and darkness about facts and truth...

I am deeply condemning your poisonous, disrespectful, low, satanic ( which I dont believe exists either ) dark thoughts about others beliefs..

shame on you..

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 12:32 pm ET

Ben,
As Miriam said, believe what you like! I'm sure that if I had the inclination to find "interesting" facts about Islam, there would be no shortage. One very interesting fact is that many more innocent men, women and children have been murdered by Muslims, in the name of their God, than by all the other religions combined. And to make matters worse, many of the murdered were Muslims.

ben   January 12th, 2009 12:38 pm ET

Jonas

So who is stupid the one who believes in one God or three Gods in one?? No i don't understand Trinity one in three and three in one, maybe Moses was a God too? what do you know?

Miriam

still on denial, girl have they done a good work on you, poor little thing, see how a liar defines goyim.

Turk

Thanks for your input to Jonas the Infidel.

CS:

You are going nowhere (end of road) with MIRIAM THE (LIAR) ZIONIST

anonymous   January 12th, 2009 12:39 pm ET

perhaps we should all be asking ourselves why it is that hamas places themselves and their activities smack in the middle of civilians in places such as schools, mosques, etc. why do they hide behind the women and children who they are claiming are being killed in this war? if the terrorist leaders really cared about innocent victims, they would not be launching terrorist in such close proximity to civilians!

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 12:47 pm ET

Jonas,

you are so wishfully thinking, ignorant and wrong..

islam ordered the message be transfered to "infidels" ( means non-believers of the message, christians and hebrew ARE believers. )

Real enmity between islam and Christianity started after 16th century after being brutally attacked by Napoleon in Egypt..

Real enmity between Christians and Islam started at 7th century ...

see the difference ?

and besides... if you calculate the sum of deaths on behalf of religion , please sum up :

Inka and Indians by Spanish in S.America... ( millions? )
Indians in N. America ( tens of millions )
Japan by US ( two test bombs were enough for a million )
Jews, Muslims, Roma by Inquisitors in Europe( tens of millions )
Africans by Europeans ( 15th to 20th century )( hundreds of millions )

ohh I forgot to name Weapons of Mass Destructions ( WMD ) made-in-US can not be scaled by defensive Weapons of Self Destructions ( WSD )

bernd   January 12th, 2009 12:53 pm ET

lets forget three gods or one etc, fact remains, Hamas, Alquiada Iran etc all are terrorist organisations and they have vowed to kill jews and all those who do not conform in the ways of there thinking. I refuse to let anybody tell me how to live and what to do, this includes all relions, religion is a personal choice and should stay personal and if you choose to live by it , fine, but do not impose on others or start a war because of your religion. Fact remains Hamas attacked Isael and it does not accept the state of Isreal, now its time for Isreal to defend itself.

Fawad Ali   January 12th, 2009 12:55 pm ET

Lately, I am not doing much commenting, neither CNN and rest of the media is covering the Gaza conflict with the zest they had demonstrated in the beginning, anyway, these are the updated facts

Israelis are using Chemicals to kill as many as possible…….. White phosphorus

Americans did that too, but we have seen American public condemned the people who authorized the use- Rumsfeld is considered as one of the most nefarious name

And now (for the last few weeks) Israel has crossed the threshold of brutality and it’s time to enforce a change in Israel and a policy toward Israel……

The reality is: Israel is ruled by people who are willing to do anything just to fulfill their appetite of Killing Palestinians and grabbing their land and forcing them to live in unbearable situation.

Of course Americans have provided Israel with an opportunity to make life hell in Palestinians territories and only Americans can stop Israelis

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 12:56 pm ET

The Turk,
As you are an atheist, I cannot take anything you say seriously. All I know is that your curses are meaningless. And please understand, I don't believe in the prophet Mohammed, I'm a Christian. My religion and the Muslim religion are fundamentally different. We don't believe in the same God. So, I cannot be disrespectful to someone or something that doesn't exist. Also remember, there are at least 6 billion people in the world who also don't believe in the Islamic faith. Also remember, 95% of the 6 billion people will always choose the Jews above the Muslims as the Jews don't call us infidels and they are not forcing their religion down our throats. However, infidel, in my book is a compliment, proves that I'm not a Muslim. Muslims will have to learn that their religion is not the only one in the world and that they must live with others.

mohammed gharbawi   January 12th, 2009 12:58 pm ET

hi jonas

ben   January 12th, 2009 12:58 pm ET

So...now we know that

JONAS THE( INFIDEL) NON-CHRISTIAN, AND MIRIAM THE (LIAR) ZIONIST.

Are saying every innocent man, woman and child killed in this world its done by Muslims in the name of their God, and most of the killed are Muslims....whom are we blogging here with?

bernd   January 12th, 2009 12:59 pm ET

@ali
and of course the terrorist acts around the world Trade Center NY, Bali Spain etc. one could go on, have been comitte by the tooth fairy??? just think about this before spreading stories like you do in your last comment, I only agree with one thing, the war in Irak was unjust.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 1:01 pm ET

hunk, cs,ben

you are pathetic

your propaganda lies will get you nowhere

and for the record

i don't give a sh*t of what you think

Deborah Al-Qanai   January 12th, 2009 1:03 pm ET

I am from the United States and am embarrassed with what is happening in Gaza. I like alot of Americans do not stand with Israel in what they are doing to the people of Gaza. I am appalled now with Israel bombing with chemicals and all I can think about are the poor people with their skin peeling off. God forgive them for what they are doing! I as a human being ask God to bless them with conviction of sin and repent and turn back for mankind sake. I have written a letter to President Bush, U.N., and CNN in support of the people of Gaza. I think if more people of the world speak up and write to their governments something may be done. Enshallah!

Fawad Ali   January 12th, 2009 1:03 pm ET

Jonas,

lets limit the argument to the crisis at hand 'Israel's brutality against human beings'

oferdesade   January 12th, 2009 1:07 pm ET

looking for golda quotes:

"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."

I challenge any reader to show me one instance of Arab mass condemnation of the killing of Jewish children as there already is in Israel for the deaths caused in Gaza – even at present, in the midst of a battle that seems to have a wider-than-usual consensus within a nation known for its inability to foster a consensus (there's even a joke: ask 2 jews, get 3 answers).

the killing of children is inexcusable – even if, as in the case of the IDF, it's inadvertent.
the mere targeting of children, even when using ineffective scuds, is fiendish.
hiding behind a child and letting him/her be killed in your stead is the act of a coward who should eternally burn in hell.

i somehow doubt even the most downtrodden of gazites would argue.

dan perman   January 12th, 2009 1:07 pm ET

fawad ali

i forgot you

you are even worse

sbaa   January 12th, 2009 1:09 pm ET

oh my god why all this whyyyyyyyyyy , we can live in peace but we dont want why !!! money – positions – rotten wht else etc etc

mohammed gharbawi   January 12th, 2009 1:10 pm ET

you still debate

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1:13 pm ET

Jonas,

there are 1.100 billion( ref: The World Almanac (1997)) muslims in the world..( makes almost % 20 )

Believing to other faith does not give you right to curse any other belief system.. If you do, You are accepting "counter-curse".

Actualy, If you would dare to read about Islam , you would easyly see that it is ( somehow ) based on the same principals and facts of Christianity then Jewish...

You may choose to be Christian or Muslim by personal acceptance, but you are only "born" to be Jewish... What is different and more racist here is not Christianity and Islam, by definition.

besides, what is in Gaza happening, is much beyond beliefs.. it is now in the level of humanity and animal-ity..

it is all up to you to choose "your" right..

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1:14 pm ET

Jonas """as the Jews don’t call us infidels and they are not forcing their religion down our throats."""

Who is trying to force their religion down your throats!! China is an atheist state by majority and no one trying to force his religion upon their throat!! This is about ""occupation"" expelling Palestinians, and racist discrimination by Jews against Palestinians. not about religion differences and bad guys as you like to imagine it, to protect your biased morality. and extremism is in the eye of th beholder, did you ever heard what Zionists say??

Barry Greene   January 12th, 2009 1:17 pm ET

to ALL you sanctimonious dingbats
"just a few "rockets...EVER BEEN UNDER constant rocket barrages,indescriminate explosions,Hamas has had every opportunity to stop this and elected to continue -for years
NONE of you have a semblance of what you wrote about
Get the facts,digest them,and THEN comment

bernd   January 12th, 2009 1:18 pm ET

et al
it is about terroist acts, not religion, no religion advocates the killing of people, simple but a fraction of muslims have taken the Koran and use it for their weapon and unfotunatly there are many stupid people in this world they will beleave such propaganda, even today with all the media, 60 million germans beleaved one man an its fanatic reasons to start a war which cost the lives of millions of people and the part destruction of Europe, fanatics of all walks of life or religion are not good for this world

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1:19 pm ET

Dan perman, """i don’t give a sh*t of what you think"""

Dont you own anything better to say to protect your lost morality and lame cause else than this?!!!

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1:21 pm ET

it is all about occupation , proven by United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, 1967... and it is all about trick-lies of Israel and its PR activities to blind-fold ignorant western voters to get maximum support to their crimes.

ben   January 12th, 2009 1:22 pm ET

Dan the (Honorable) Satan Teacher,
Miriam the (Liar) Zionist,
Jonas the (Infidel) Non-Christian,

We don't care if you don't give a sh*t of what we think, actually it was not expected from such people as you, so keep cursing when you have nonsense replies, or you have no further lies.

mohammed gharbawi   January 12th, 2009 1:22 pm ET

ok

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1:24 pm ET

Barry Greene,

Do you know that Israel killed –6000– Palestinians in the last 8 years alone!! try Google facts, before you are brainwashed by propaganda of innocent Israel! did we ever heard your sound before about the 6000 Palestinians killed by Israel?

mohammed gharbawi   January 12th, 2009 1:30 pm ET

Dan
is this a forum for insults. Look for a decent job. You are surely jobless. Let people debate and profit form this stimulating experience. Or may be youll ask us about the jewish pregnant woman who was ****** and killed.

Angry Nubian   January 12th, 2009 1:36 pm ET

Akiva,

Very interesting synopsis about a "chosen people".

Check the BBC or do an internet search about a PAST TV series/program called the "Lost tribes of Israel". This is what the director said who himself is a Jew "There are no chosen people"

Again the lost tribes of Israel reside in all parts of the world including mostly Africa, IraqIran, the Caribbean and other parts of the world.

If these European countries had gone and brought these lost tribe back to Israel the outcome would have been different with total PEACE- PEACE- PEACE without question.

The Eurpean Isrealis found it convenient to bring a few of the REAL Ethiopian Jews back to Israel and even then they had to prove they were Jewish.

How arrogant are these war mongers? Mind you some of the most peacefyul human beings in the world reside in Israel. They are the ones who the blessed peacemakes. Biblical verse "Blessed are the peace makers for they shall inherit the earth"

The British and other powers that be wanted a state with people looking like them (white) and that is what happened.

Even though I do believe the holocaust occured, Israel is using the holocaust as a guilt trip on the US, Canada and other European countries to get away with getting aid and symphathy and murdering brown skin people.who had nothing to do with the holocaust.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1:37 pm ET

a question @ all here...

who wants here the peace between Israelis and Palestinians? ( what ever the way )

Fidel   January 12th, 2009 1:38 pm ET

I do not understand the Medie ; when the barrel of petrol goes up 40$ ..itis because of ISRAEL Gaza conflict......Today it is below 38$

Is it also Because of ISRAEL?

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1:39 pm ET

I want it, once and for all... now..

Ephraim   January 12th, 2009 1:41 pm ET

After eight years, the Arabs finally get a taste of their own medicine, and now they're confused and bewildered that someone finally stood up to them.

We'll never submit to the Islamic Apartheid system. We'll never surrender our freedom to our Arab tormentors. Long live Israel!

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1:42 pm ET

I want peace, with equal rights on both side, including the right to return for Palestinians.

Glen Rico   January 12th, 2009 1:45 pm ET

I just want to write a short comment to everybody reading. So much efforts, so much protests, so much anger and hate against Israel for what it is happening in Gaza, but no words about the hundreds of thousands starving, mistreated and dieing in Zimbabwe. No voice raising against Mugabe. UN what are you doing to solve this problem?
Two UN aid workers were killed in Gaza and immediately the aid was stopped because Israel was hold responsible for this fact.
But when in Somalia 2 UN aid workers were also killed by the militia, the UN did not stop any aid to Somalia. Is this a matter of two weights and two measures, or is it because it is Israel the problem.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 1:47 pm ET

The Turk,
I'm tired of curses. I don't believe in them.
Ben.
Correction. I'm JONAS (CHRISTIAN). I don't think that you read my posting very well. Your assumptions are wrong!
Barham,
China has many problems with Islamic extremists in the country. They have killed and captured many in the last years. Yes, China is an atheistic state, but there are millions of Muslims, Christians, Buddhists and Hindus in China.
To make a long story short, I believe that Hamas is to blame for the death of the women and children in Gaza. I also believe that they are using the woman and children as human shields. I also believe that given the record of Muslim extremists, like Hamas, they don't care about the right to life, including that of moderate Muslims.
CS
I’m proudly an infidel, although someone on this blog told me that Muslims don’t call Christians infidels.

The Turk   January 12th, 2009 1:49 pm ET

You are right Glen Rico,

We must unite to fight peacefully for peace against all kinds of suppression, occupation and suffering, and shout out loud.

ben   January 12th, 2009 1:52 pm ET

Anonymous:

Gaza is 40km long x 10k wide, where do you want them to go? And who is telling you they are in schools or in mosques? the ZIONISTS?

Bernd

Lets forget the three into one Gods, and the definition of terrorist given by the west double standards of Iran, Hamas, Al Gaeda, Muslims, and Islam doesnt force its religion to anyone, but force out occupiers from their land. So tell your fruitcake friends to go back where they came from, or face extintion in Palestine or any other Muslim land. And preach your beliefs to your own people.

Oferdesade:

We are not democratic...remember.. plus we don't have a Golda heart? go find you something else to quote or comment on.

Barry Green:

Hamas will resist all occupiers and will not beg for its independence, go and read about the end of occupiers thru out history.

End of story O C C U P I E R S will be thrown out now or latter. stupids.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1:53 pm ET

Jonas. ARE YOU SERIOUS? So called Christians are responsible for far more death and destruction, than any other religious group. Which is quite a feat considering that other religions have been here for longer. Since I deal in facts (which is why some of you get angry and speak in bold print, like I'm supposed to be impressed), let's look at history. Starting with the crusades. Then let's look at what Columbus did (murder rape and enslave brown Indians from two continents and several Islands), look at apartheid, look at what happened to the Native American Indian, look at the African slave trade, look at Englands opression of Scotland, Ireland, India, .. hell' everybody, look at Hiroshima/Nagasaki, look at vietnam, look at Iraq (two wars that did not need to be faught), look at KKK/skinheads, and other so-called Christian groups, OH! let's not forget Hitler, who also claimed to be a Christian, Stalin...I mean the list goes on and on. So called-Christians/Catholics, have gone on a millenium long reign of terror, worldwide. You speak of the Muslims fighting over their own land from pre-biblical times, but at least they stay in theri own neighborhood for the most part. And Israel is a close second. Let's look at what has been going on in Lebanon, Their support for the Iraq war, the expulsion of Palestinians from their own land in 1948, and as of late, the Nazi's are talking about Iran.
Let me tell you. Messing with Iran is a whole different ball game than These other small nations. Iran is a true opponent, and has resources and allies. This is exactly why Israel/U.S. approaches Iran so tenderly, because they are true bullies (cowards) The U.S. wants another Vietnam, as much as Israel wants another Lebanon.
But back to your foolish notion that Muslims are responsible for the most carnage...I only spoke of wars, and crimes against humanity. I did'nt get into the manufacture of Nukes, chemical warfare, biological warfare, the creation of certain viruses, and the systematic destruction of our planet.

Before you speak, you should think.

bernd   January 12th, 2009 1:55 pm ET

true statements of a supporter of terroism, shameful and it does not deserve comments as it speaks for itself

Deborah Al-Qanai   January 12th, 2009 1:55 pm ET

Yes I too believe Israel is is using the holocaust as a guilt trip but many Christians believe that God told the Jews to go to that land but not to abuse of their power and force their ways on others of other faiths. 'Jews, Muslims and Christians need to live in peace and stop forcing each other with their own ways. Respect for one another and repent for thinking one is better than the other. I mean i don't think God would look down on mankind and think that we all are very God fearing people nor a very good example for those without faith.

CS   January 12th, 2009 1:57 pm ET

Nubian. I agree. But getting a European Jew or supporter of Israel to admitt that they are nothing more than the stealers of birthwrites of true Israelites, is like getting a murderer to admitt to a crime, in which the prosecution has no murder weapon. They just wont do it. However...fight the power!

Barham   January 12th, 2009 1:59 pm ET

Jonas,
Again you like to imagine this is about religion, well again it is about Y occupied X land no matter what the F their religion is! do i have to repeat it another time? and im telling you this as Palestinians atheist who is been expelled of his land by Israelis.

Do you know also that many Palestinians Christians where expelled also by Israelis in the 1948 occupation. the percentage of Christians used to be around 18% in inside Palestine land, now inside Israel there almost no Christian minority.

CS   January 12th, 2009 2:00 pm ET

Debora Al-Qanani. I have some strong views, as I am sure some others do as well, on both sides of the spectrum. However, what you just said was beautiful, and true.

Just Human   January 12th, 2009 2:01 pm ET

Just my thoughts:
Fear drives us all.
Fear for phisical or emotional pain/harm to us and our loved ones.
Fear leads to "What if" thoughts based on (passed) "knowledge" and trying to predict the future generating negative feelings en depleting our "mental"energie. Fear stops us living in its tracks and keeps us, in our minds, in the past en possible future both of wich are not the present.
Control comes from fear and fear is used to control
There is not "my land" or "your land", just land. It's fear of, for example not heaving enough resources for us and our loved ones for the future, that makes it suddenly "My land".
Violence is often driven from fear.
Hamas, it's statements and actions are a by-product of fear. Fear that lead to violence.
Israel's actions and rhetoric are basted on fear ( example holocaust and hama's ) and lead to violance.
I believe that if you know your fears, where they come from, you can control your anger. Accept pain, and all emotions as part of your life because it's never been ment to be easy. It's making the right dissisions in difficult moments, not based on fear, that will make you grow spiritualy.
Stop living in fear and begin living now. But most importantly help eachother not to fear. "Loved-ones" should be, as impossible as it sounds, all man kind, not just the ones we like.
All easier said than done.. I know, but still....

..and that for an atheist or Infidel... :) Excuse my English

malek   January 12th, 2009 2:07 pm ET

Can't we all get along?

Deborah Al-Qanai   January 12th, 2009 2:08 pm ET

Well I am leaving this blog and wish for PEACE for us all. May God help us all here on planet Earth and wake us up to what really needs to happen here!

CS   January 12th, 2009 2:09 pm ET

Bernd, was the systematic erratication of the Native American Indian not "using the bible " for an excuse to destroy a whole race of people?
I mean after the "pilgrims" got here, and almost strved, the Indians helped them survive and flourish. To what avail? To be called savages, and made to either convert to Christianity, be slaughtered, and the few remaining get to live in concentration camps...I mean reservations. When the Europeans enslaved Africans, and made them convert to their view of "Christianity", was that not Christians using the bible as a "weapon"

HYPOCRITE!

Joan   January 12th, 2009 2:12 pm ET

It seems to me that if everyone could agree to live in peace, then so much progress could be made for everyone. This war is terrible and it must stop, on all sides.

Hurling insults and bombs doesn't accomplish anything. Although I'd rather have insults than bombs.

CS   January 12th, 2009 2:14 pm ET

It's amazing how people twist things. When Americans/Israelis/English do things it's "liberating Iraq, and terrorists need to be stopped, and WMD's and the Indians are savages, and Africanc = 2/3 of a man, and women are'nt smart enough to vote." But when Isalamic countries do things it's "Terror" WOW! This, I like to call, "The hypocracy of our democracy"

Barham   January 12th, 2009 2:15 pm ET

I agree with you Joan

CS   January 12th, 2009 2:16 pm ET

Joan, when you refer to "hurling bombs" Who do you mean?

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 2:18 pm ET

mohammed gharbawi

Ben
Turk
Cs

I am with Mohammad, lets focus on the cause "AL QADIAH",

There are Arabs among us who are represent the mosaic ... i call on you all for unity .... brothers and sisters.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 2:18 pm ET

Glen Rico,
You are wasting your time! I asked the same questions two weeks ago and got some very superficial replies. I asked about Darfur, where hundreds of thousands of people (mostly Muslims) have been shot, starved, bombed and raped by the Islamic terrorists. I asked about Nigeria and Morocco where thousands of Christians have been murdered by Islamists. I asked about Zimbabwe where thousands are starving to death and dying of cholera.
Nothing, my brother. Nobody cares. The world only concentrates on Gaza. You see, Palestine is more popular with the politicians. It's ok to murder thousands of the people in Darfur, oppressed by the Islamists, because African lives are cheap.
Also, most of these CNN blogs about the ME are populated by Muslim extremists and their supporters. They only want to insult and attack Israel, driven by their inborn hatred of the Jews. They avoid, very cunningly, the subject of Islamic atrocities like the plague.
You’ll get no sympathy here!

ben   January 12th, 2009 2:24 pm ET

CS

Very well put lesson to Jonas....but do you think it will go thru his square head....I doubt..

END OCCUPATION NOW.....

The Turk.

I am for ending of occupation and peace will come without any effort and thats from 1948 occupation, nothing less ACCEPTABLE.

CS   January 12th, 2009 2:24 pm ET

Because if someone tried to starve me and my countrymen, family, broke a cease fire agreement by killing my soldiers, and invading my country 2x during a cease fire, cut electricity which leads to water pumps not working, and many other terrorist acts..I, like many others would be very angry. Where was the U.S./U.N when these things happened? Why di we only hear about it after the fighting starts, and the Islamic country is already painted the agressor. Why is Palestine expected to starve, and beg for equal treatment? Why, when a U.N trucker was bringing supplies to Gaza, was he killed by Israeli fire, and why was this covered so lightly by the mainstream media? Hypocrites, hypocrites, hypocrites!

Zaid   January 12th, 2009 2:25 pm ET

Something to add to debate; to be carefully erad and understood !:

This war on the people of Gaza isn’t really about rockets. Nor is it about “restoring Israel’s deterrence,” as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defence Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opinion/08khalidi.html?em

fred   January 12th, 2009 2:25 pm ET

i blame HAMAS for all of this with their suicide by cop attitude. They
have the death of the innocence on their hands as well.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 2:26 pm ET

It just amazes me to see that Israel (god's chosen people) would think that what they are doing is right. do they think they will kill 1.5 million people and remain the white lamb in the eyes of the world. I think not. the extinction on 1.5 million people can never be justified. to invade a land where all the people have are a few rockets, is not an equal fight. What have they accomplished by this invasion...nothing except kill civilians and enrage folks. Is this the way they expect to accomplish peace by being a bully. But life has been something of a paradox because the underdog always manages to be triumphant.

Joan   January 12th, 2009 2:28 pm ET

Barham,

I mean anyone who is using any kind of deadly weapon.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 2:29 pm ET

I wish the world leaders would, somehow, force Hamas to stop firing on Israel and not hide weapons in populated areas. I wish the Israeli soldiers could go back home. I wish unbiased world peacekeepers would go in, put a thirty foot wall between the two and watch both sides. The people of Gaza deserve peace. I also wish the slaughter in Darfur would stop. I see protestors, now, but where have they been while hundreds of thousands have been tortured and kills. Is is fear or indifference?? If Israel couldn't or wouldn't defend itself, it would probably have the same fate.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 2:30 pm ET

Glen Rico,

Why the UN aid workers should be harmed, the 4th Geneva convention guarantee their safety same for the press and should never be touched but should assisted, to reach to the wounded.

CS   January 12th, 2009 2:33 pm ET

Ben, I was kind of depressed thi morning until i read your response.
I am still laughing as I write this:) And you are right. Maybe we thinkers and apposers of genocide, should band together, and stop trying to reach the opressors, as it is futile. Hunk is right again.
As I said before. They will never admitt to their wrong doing. They already think they're God's gift anyway. I hate no particular groups. Ithink good and bad exists in all cultures. But that's the difference between us and them. They will simply not repent. They are, as the Bible calls them "stiff necked." I am a Christian, but am happy to call Muslim and Jew alike, my brothers, if they are good men or at least aspire to be so. We should probably try to engage the terrorist type as little as we must. Although...it is hard to stand by as someone lies.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 2:34 pm ET

In a war zone, it's impossible to be completely safe. Hamas continues to fire, from what I hear on the news, during the three hour cease fires so Israel fires back. The press argues they should be there – they know the risks. They realize there are risks.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 2:36 pm ET

CS

you speak truth and live by facts. I respect you.

CS   January 12th, 2009 2:39 pm ET

GLeigh. Do you also wish for Israel to stop move the blockades, so that Palestine can get their supplies. As I heard on NPR this moring, there would be no need for tunnels, if there were no blockade.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 2:39 pm ET

In many countries, we try though it doesn't always happen, to respect and be tolerant of all cultures and religions. Everyone has equal rights, even women. Some cultures don't believe this way or teach their children this way. That's their right. But those who want culture acceptance and equal rights need to be aware of it. The people of Dalfur have the right to peace. So do the people of Gaza.

Calli   January 12th, 2009 2:39 pm ET

So-called "Christian," was 911 a good day for you?

Christian my ass. Jesus was a Jew and believed in Israel's right to exist. Unlike you and Hamas.

Enjoy life under Sharia.

CS   January 12th, 2009 2:41 pm ET

When I say terrorist...of course I mean the Israeli government.

Barham   January 12th, 2009 2:43 pm ET

Jonas said """Morocco where thousands of Christians have been murdered by Islamists."""

Are you true? from where you bring this information? please provide reference!! are they now bombing the Christians civilians in Morocco using artillery shells? please tell so i will defend them, in what blog they are talking about killing Christians Morocco? how many died? from where you have this information? again do you know that 6000 Palestinians killed by Israel in the last 8 years? did you try to defend them before?

And this blog about what is happening in Gaza now, so we talk about Gaza, isnt this how blogs work? not? please educate me. again what is your point here? you want us to stop talking about the killing happening now in Gaza? why?

Deborah Al-Qanai   January 12th, 2009 2:43 pm ET

CS I am a minority and do have American Indian blood too but if you study the American Indians their loosing was a win for their people today. Yes the American Indians lost alot with those that came to America but when they stopped fighting and were put on those "concentration camps or reservations" as you call them God blessed them with gold, uranium and oil. American Indians don't pay taxes, go to colleges for free, etc.. Yes, I hate what my forefathers from europe did to the Indians but I guess that's what was written and leave it to God to be the judge. As far as the Black Americans are concerned too they were abused but just look where they are now. They too suffered severely but later blessed too. As much as I hate to admit it, it was written and allowed and ask God to be the judge and in the end those ancestors down the line were blessed for the injustices that they endured. May God have mercy and bless the people of Gaza and not let them suffer any longer.

CS   January 12th, 2009 2:43 pm ET

Christian who is just. Likewise. Now let us continue to send the stinging blow of truth upon the backside of liars:)

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 2:44 pm ET

911 was not a good day for anyone,but for some like Calli, it was probably the first day their eyes were opened to the political situation of the world.

RG   January 12th, 2009 2:46 pm ET

Doesn’t any one see beyond their Moslem Ego and pride and instead off only rallying against Israel also try and save lives!!!!
Does anyone really expect any independent state to stand by while a bordering state fires rockets into civilian populations???? What would Saudi do if Jordan shot missiles day after day into their cities? What would Assad do if missiles were shot by Hizbalah from Lebanon into Damascus? Does anyone want to take a wild guess?
Now if you really want to save lives, start rallying against the Hamass and pressurize them to realize that they are not a fare fight for Israel, Put their Ego aside stop shooting missiles and agree to negotiate!!! That’s all it will take.
The fact that everyone is protesting against Israel is only motivation the Hamass to continue this ridiculous war. and by participating in this "Tail wind" for the Hamass is directly responsible for more civilian deaths.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 2:47 pm ET

I wonder if the i same injustices that have been bestowed upon the Palestinians by Israel for decades were bestowed upon us Americans would we just sit and smile and behave, or would we fight back and make noise and chaos however we could in order for the world to hear our voice and see plight

RG   January 12th, 2009 2:47 pm ET

Doesn’t any one see beyond their Moslem Ego and pride and instead off only rallying against Israel also try and save lives!!!!
Does anyone really expect any independent state to stand by while a bordering state fires rockets into civilian populations???? What would Saudi do if Jordan shot missiles day after day into their cities? What would Assad do if missiles were shot by Hizbalah from Lebanon into Damascus? Does anyone want to take a wild guess?
Now if you really want to save lives, start rallying against the Hamass and pressurize them to realize that they are not a fare fight for Israel, Put their Ego aside stop shooting missiles and agree to negotiate!!! That’s all it will take.
The fact that everyone is protesting against Israel is only motivation the Hamass to continue this ridiculous war. And everyone participating in this "Tail wind" is directly responsible for more civilian deaths.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 2:49 pm ET

A song for Gaza

We will not go down (Song for Gaza)

Calli   January 12th, 2009 2:49 pm ET

Christian makes uninformed and incorrect assumptions about me just like he does about Hamas and Israel.

I guess being ignorant is an excuse for bearing false witness in his brand of "Christianity."

Yeah, Christ would be reeeeeaally proud of this one. I'll pray for his soul anyway.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 2:51 pm ET

This is my understanding of Hamas's message...and our response.

What Hamas have said in word and deed is:
We will kill you if you stay
And we will kill you if you leave.
We will kill you if you retaliate
And we will kill you if you don’t retaliate.
What can Israel do but to seek to end the terror
That threatens and is meant to threaten its very existence?

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 2:52 pm ET

CS History has shown that Hamas should not have weapons or they will fire them at Israel. Over 11,000 over an eight year period. Even other Arab nations wanted them to stop. So, I do think Irael and Gaza should be separated, not allowed to glance at each other. I do think the people of Gaza should be allowed to export stuff they produce, support themselves, but not import weapons because they will shoot at Israel again. This is what started all of this to begin with. It Hamas had not been shooting at Israel, the people of Gaza would not be hurt and the young adult soldiers would be home with their families.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 2:53 pm ET

Calli

I agree being ignorant is an excuse for bearing false witness in your brand of "Christianity"

Abbas Naqvi   January 12th, 2009 2:53 pm ET

Between this struggle for real estate, the only real gains are human casualties.

Evidently, there is no hope for the occupants of the occupied territory.

The only lesson to learn here is that the oppressor hates the victim more than the victim hates the oppressor.

Calli   January 12th, 2009 2:54 pm ET

If 911 wasn't a good day for you, then you don't support Hamas. You can be supportive of the Palestinian people, but you cannot support Hamas any mroe than you support al quaida, the taliban and other radical extemist muslims who want to take over the world and bring it under sharia. Hamas is just their cell and is charged with pushing israel into the sea and exterminating all Jews.

There's a difference between supporting the Palestiniana people and supporting hamas. I'm sure it's a big freakin riddle for u. Try to figure it out.

Calli   January 12th, 2009 2:57 pm ET

Oh, and by the way, 911 WAS a good day for Hamas. They were celebrating and dancing in the streets and passing out candy.

Guess some people missed that minor fact.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 2:57 pm ET

Doesn't Hamas have a charter?? What does it say? What are their words and goals? Is it for world peace?

CS   January 12th, 2009 2:57 pm ET

Deborah. I am of partially the same linneage(with respect to the Native American part) I agree that the few that are left (and I mean FEW) do alright on casino reservation and such, HOWEVER. After being nearly whiped out, the remainder of Full blooded Native Americans had alcohol pushed on them. They were force from the way of life known to their ancestors for centuries.
And I could not disagree more about your comment on African Americans. How easy do you think it is for an African American to find out of his/her origins? And just because a few have done well, look at the poverty level, and what is done to keep AA in this position. I'm not saying it's impossible to succeed, because look at our president elect. But the bar of success is set way higher for AA than for whites here. Like Chris Rock said. He lives in a community in Jersey. A few other BIG named AA stars live in the community, yet, his neigbor is a dentist. Not a heart surgeon, or brain surgeon, a dentist. That's the difference. We must not accept what is given us, just because. Just because things have gotten better, does'nt mean they're yet right.
And God has let the Israelites suffer, until they came back to him, then he restored them, and they sinned again, but were restred again, and so on. But I don't think that God wants us to say "well things are OK for me, and that should be enough"

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 2:59 pm ET

Christian who is just,

I do respect you and see the light of your words.

May God -Allah- the almighty God bliss you

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 3:01 pm ET

exterminating all Jews with short range rockets....hehehe.... learn the history of the region maybe they you would be sympathetic for the Palestinians and less blindly supportive of Israel.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 3:02 pm ET

I really do not want to go into whether the Hamas supporters danced in the streets on 9/11.

But I would point out the following:

Every gesture of goodwill undertaken by Israel has been seized on by its enemies
as a sign of weakness. Every Israeli effort towards peace has led without exception to an increase in violence against Israel. The Oslo Peace Process led directly to the first Palestinian suicide attacks in Israel.

Taba: the most generous offer Israel ever made to the Palestinians, led directly to the most concerted set of terrorist attacks against any nation in modern history.

The Gaza Withdrawal, the most painful act Israel has ever had to undertake, led
within less than a year to 1000 Kassam rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets
including schoolchildren.

Nevertheless, please note, we must all pursue peace....we will not stop believing that we can leave our children a better world.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 3:03 pm ET

How far back do we go to find resentment and hate? Who should we point fingers at and blame? It does no good. Romans made slaves of Jews. Germany exterminated them. The Vikings killed many English. The English went after the Scots. Most learn to get over it and live peacefully eventually. I have one religion, but study many, Buddha and Native American writings in particular. To get a full view of God, it seems a good idea to me. Beyond all that, Hamas needs to stop firing at Israel and let the people of Gaza have peace. What are the charters of Hamas? Their writings? Anyone know? What is it, exactly, they want?

CS   January 12th, 2009 3:03 pm ET

GLeigh. I already heard you make this say about the dancung in the streets. This coverage was celebration of a soccer game win. But you don't expect a media retraction do you. When was the last time you saw one of those by the way?
And to respond to your comment about Hamas" charter. I don't care about superficial things like this. But the fact that you do shows how malleable your brain is. The TV has done a job on you. I'm sure the U.S. has plenty of "charters, pledges, and other such superficial sayings, but we still invaded Iraq, and killed over 300,00 civilians for no aparent reason. Iraq never attacked us in it's entire history. Nor did they ever have WMDs. But I'll bet you can justify that...Charter breach.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 3:06 pm ET

GLeigh,

Are you looming still on a shade of gray .... can i see your color once you have decided ...

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 3:07 pm ET

I was once blind, because I do believe the Jews are God's chosen people,but that doesn't give them the right to do as they please. I opened a book and educated myself about that region and soon enough the ignorance that blinded me was gone, I pray that the rest of you "Christians" will do the same. And not be so easily swayed by the propagandized word of "terrorist"

Calli   January 12th, 2009 3:09 pm ET

Read the Hamas charter, genius. Just can't they exterminate Jews with short range rockets doesn't mean that it's not their goal. They say so very clearly in their charter. Read it. It says emphatically that there is not such thing as a peaceful solution. Their words, not mine.

When your done reading the Hamas charter, go to youtube and search "hamas TV." Watch some of their shows that they air on their network, expecially the children's shows.

I highly recommend the children's program about the Hamas child who goes to Washington, assassinating Bush and turning the White House into a mosque. He is a brave an heroic Hamas child.

If that doesn't float your boat, there's always good old-fashioned discourse by sane and rational Hamas clerics, where you can hear for calls of exterminiation of the Jews described as a "beautiful blessing." I'll make it easy for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsvqcp4aWF8

Continue to sympathize with the Palestinians like any decent human being would do, but don't delude yourself into thinking Hamas is your great pal OR theirs if you're actually a Christian.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 3:12 pm ET

CS – I never wrote anything about "dancing in the streets." You confused your posters. When people say something, I expect them to mean it. When they write it in a document, I take it even more seriously. This isn't an old document back hundreds of years that doesn't relate.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 3:13 pm ET

Guys,

I just want you all to read this prayer by the Chief Rabbi of Great Britain which he read at the rally in London in support of Israel which apparently was attaended by over 30,000 people, Hindus and Christians as well as Jews.

Prayer on behalf of all involved in this terrible conflict:

Listen to this, our prayer on their behalf.
Grant peace to all your children, Jew, Christian and Muslim alike.
Help us live together, respecting one another.
Help us cherish life.
Help us to use the powers You gave us, to heal, to mend, to build.
We ask of You, Almighty God, just one thing:
You who make peace in high places,
Help us make peace down here on earth.

Amen to that!

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 3:14 pm ET

I'm not trying to take sides. For those whose goal is peace for the people of Israel and Gaza, I'm trying to figure out how that might be accomplished so the dying might stop. For some, peace is not the goal. Wiping Israel off the map is the goal. That does cause a problem in the peace process.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 3:14 pm ET

Yes when people say something I expect they mean it to and when they write it in a document, i take it even more seriously. Just like the WMDs in Iraq right.

CS   January 12th, 2009 3:14 pm ET

Calli. You can't blame Al Qaida for not wanting the U.S. for being in it's country. They did'nt even exist until after we invaded their country. If some other country invaded yours, would you ban together, and fight for your family, your home, and your right to exist, or would you just do everything the occupying force said? By the way, was'nt it the Taliban that perpetrated 9/11? Were not the attackers of Saudi origin? (15/19 of them) Chase Bin Laden, yes. Exterminate every muslim you see. NO!

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 3:18 pm ET

Saddam was a cruel dictator. Hopefully the government of Iraq is creating something new, kinder. I don't know what is right and wrong in all of that mess, but I do know they no longer have a cruel dictator. There are a thousand wars we could debate. I'm worried about the citizens of Gaza and Israel. In Israel there are concrete arches over the schools so if a Hamas missile hits one, the children might survive. Peace for all would be good.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 3:18 pm ET

CS

Are you suggesting that Israel wants to exterminate every Muslim???

CS   January 12th, 2009 3:18 pm ET

Harvey. That was very much needed. Thank you for posting it. I just wish, that more religious leaders would remain impartial, and not add any bias to their messages. Here in the states, church leaders do everything they can to manipulate peoples minds to justify bad behavior.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 3:20 pm ET

harvey,

Can you have a better Idea other than justifying the killing , today 4100 wounded and over 800 killed , 40% of them are children and women s that's more than 1900 civilians , the 61 Arab doctors arrived last night and will recount the dead's and the wounded and will release the new figures.

Some time the justification will become unmoral and a crime on on itself, don't sell your soul to your IDF lies.

mohammad   January 12th, 2009 3:20 pm ET

Damian
if israel stop dealing with arabs like thy are non humans ..there well be no violance ...
if israel stop occupy the arab lands there well be no violance .
if israel let the refugees come back according to the dissisions of the UN there well be no violance .

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 3:21 pm ET

see the problem all stems from the fact that when you don't understand something you vilify it. Muslims are not bad people as someone said earlier. their is good and bad in every culture,but when you want to treat someone like they don't exist or matter because you have no interest in knowing who they are or what they stand for and have you own perceived thoughts about them then you have made a mistake. America and Israel are both guilty of that and has done a great job of brain washing their people so that the majority has no idea what Islam or for that matter what any other religion is about

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 3:23 pm ET

Perhaps even if Hamas continues firing on Israel and continues hiding those weapons among the populated areas of their country, the Israeli soldiers should leave. Hopefully their hearts are kinder. I know Hamas rockets kill Israeli people, but I don't know if Hamas will ever stop.

Hunk   January 12th, 2009 3:25 pm ET

RG,

I posted this for the "8 years" slogan ....

Where were the people including you for the last 60 years, when Palestinians were left without home and suffering under a very sever condition just because they want a place under the sun.

The only exit, is to end the “occupation” and recognize the Palestinians right to exist as they have recognized your right to exist.

The Palestinians wanted to renew the ceasefire in return of lifting of the blockade which was enforced for 3 years, why Israel kept the mass punishment regime and caged the Gazans and when Israel break the ceasefire we never hear of any demonstration.

The justification of killing of so much people will never counter an image of a small child crying Mama , Mama .

Enough bloodshed and enough justification of the killing of people in whatever name.

Here is a link CNN Confirms Israel Broke Ceasefire First

Why only god knows ….

harvey   January 12th, 2009 3:29 pm ET

CS

I should say that the Chief rabbi of Great Britain is not impartial. He was addressing a rally in support of Israel.

Just because we are forced to defend ourselves it does not mean that we must lose our humanity.

Friends, let me tell you what is wrong with terror. It is not just that it murders the innocent: the young, the old, the defenceless, the uninvolved. It is that it murders innocence itself. It turns virtue into weakness, decency into vulnerability.

This is all so terribly sad and needless. By some divine practical joke God has decreed that the descendants of Abraham's son's, Ishmael and Isaac are to be neighbours. As one of the descendants of Isaac, I'm just waiting for the folks next door and praying that they will become neighbourly and stop trying to kill my children and worse forcing my children to turn into killers of their children.

CS   January 12th, 2009 3:29 pm ET

Harvey. I'm was talking briefly about the U.S., but I do believe that the Israeli government (for the most part) wants to opress islamic nations at all costs. Even if it means extermination, yes. Please understand that I do not think in absolute terms. And I do believe that the leaders of men will be the end of men. Idon't believe that the people of ANY nation are responsible for it's fate. Example..if it were up to me, we would have never been to Iraq the second time. But I can bet that some poor Iraqi child, who has lost both parents at the hands of a U.S. bomb or bullet, still hates all Americans. And...can you blame him? If you want to create an army of determined adversaries, do what the U.S. and Israel do. Opress them a while. I guarantee you, if many of us on this site right now were face with losing our loved ones, our homes, and our land...if we saw some of the terrible things of war..such as possibly a child of ours hurt, because of some political nonsense....Harbey..please beleive that this would make a universal soldier out of us. Ready to kill as many of the enemy as we could. How would you feel if these terrible things were visited upon you if they (God forbid) already have not. If you have children, and or/wife/husband...it's hard to believe that people could lose them to this type of opression, and not want absolute..cold served revenge.

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 3:30 pm ET

Hunk – the goal is to find peace for everyone, hopefully. Neither side is perfect. I agree. World leaders should have stepped in long ago, not Jewish, not Arab, and separated Israel and Gaza and had a two state solution. That was turned down. Why that was turned down depends on who you listen to and how far back you go, as in most things.

mohammad   January 12th, 2009 3:32 pm ET

GLeigh
hamas rokets killed only 14 ppl during 8 years .....
with all respict 4 the humans live but during the 8 years the IDF killed almost 1700 non fighters only in gaza ..
..that is before this problem .
israel did not stop targiting the ppl in palastinian earias even during the ceas fire .

sarah   January 12th, 2009 3:33 pm ET

I think hamas and any other "organization" could be stopped if it was given room to breath.
Analysis of the last years war has pretty much been agreed upon that they are more numerous now than before. Why? another poster put it well about war, generally people lose what clarity they would normally have, from soldiers to civilians. From an outside view alot of Arabs feel attacked for being arab. Doesn't matter what religion they are it's still a perceived threat. also as another put it....christian-. The west has been great at the prapaganda whether intentional or not that all arabs are muslims and there for a potential threat.
If there were more westerners involved in these talks that the Arab leaders, from clerics to philosophers to doctors on up, i think better communication and understanding would create a temperance or buffer if you will. Understanding does not mean acceptance or being a push over.

ben   January 12th, 2009 3:34 pm ET

OK GUYS MOVE TO THE NEXT TOPIC MR. PEANUT HEAD BUSH IS SAYING COUNTRIES STOP SENDING WEAPONS TO GAZA, YOU ARE MAKING ANOTHER HOLOCAST ON THE CHOSEN PEOPLE I WORSHIP

HUNK,

I AM READY FOR THE "GADIAH" OR "CAUSE" LETS START IN THE NEXT TOPIC PAGE

GLeigh   January 12th, 2009 3:35 pm ET

People is Gaza and people in Israel are always battling in the streets. Sending off rockets into civilian areas is different, not great. I know the Israeli people are not innocent. Neither are the ones in Gaza. Separate them. Hunt for solutions to the problems. Make neutral world leaders monitor the peace and keep them separate.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 3:36 pm ET

sarah is clearly a thinker... keep the words of wisdom coming

sarah   January 12th, 2009 3:37 pm ET

to continue,

It's called living up to or living down to expectations.
Russia is Belligerent.

So they are.

N. K causes problems for S.K. So it does.

America, is the protector of the world....So it is.

America is the terrorist creator of the world....so it is.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 3:41 pm ET

CS the sceanario you paint is a realistic one I admit. Sadly it is the scenario that we in Israel live with.

All of us have to go into the army here. Israel is such a tiny country that sadly all of us have come into contact with terror and victims of terror and have lost loved ones.

Yet we must not lose our humanity and hope. Our only way forward is to find a peaceful solution and move forward. Our only way forward is to believe in the prayer that I posted written by the Chief rabbi of Great Britain.

We may fight now, but we fight NOT to eliminate another people. We fight because at this moment in time we have no choice.

Yet even as we fight we can pray that all of us (and our kids) will not succumb to the blood lust and hate....

Rabin shook the hand of Arafat. Begin shook the hand of Sadat. Hussein made peace. If you are a realist living here in Israel you have to believe in miracles!!!!Me and the vast majority of Israelis are praying that our boys come home safe and that all the kids on both sides are soon living without fear of rockets and bombs.

Categorically, we do not wish to exterminate Moslems.

Jonas   January 12th, 2009 3:42 pm ET

Calli,
These Muslim extremists know all the excuses in the book. Everything is good and right as long it is committed in the name of Islam, even killing their own brothers and sisters. They preach peace and when you accept it, they stab you in the back. Very old Arab custom! They band together like thieves in the night, they make evil plans and laugh at each others lame jokes. They insult Christians and Jews. They talk loud and make empty boasts which they actually believe. They think that Allah will protect them. Be careful of the Muslim extremists, they are the worlds worst. But most of all, Hamas could have stopped the killing of the women and children two weeks ago. All they had to do was stop their pathetic rockets. Their entire beings are put together of lies.

CS   January 12th, 2009 3:46 pm ET

Harvey. I am not Islamic or Jewish. But I can see opression for what it is. I WILL NOT close my eyes to how we (the world) got here. Israel began the opression in 1948 with the help of the U.N, which broke it's own charters and rules to create the nation now known as Israel. Israel has stoped Palestine from getting food, medical equipment, and water, and petrol. This was during the cease fire. A neutral body (one with an actual pair of stones) needs to step in when things like this are done.
With response to what you said about Palestinian s stopping trying to kill your children. I wish no ill will to uninvolved parties...especially children..of ANY race/religion. Even if they are taught to hate Palestinians. But a level of fairness needs to be upheld. The same treatment for everyone. If Israel breaks a cease fire (which they did, the media just refuses to give sufficient coverage of these events which occurred in July and November of 08) they should be exposed, and punished. Just like, if Palestine does this...well, we all know they will be held to task even if they fart.
And another thing. Something needs to be done to uphold these cease fires/treaties in the event that a crazy individual (from either side) decides to start something. Wars should not be started because a small group of idiots do something crazy. You're trying to tell me that the SEALs, and covert operations could not slowly but surely take out groups like the Taliban, without haveg to carpet bomb towns and cities, and wage full scale war? I don't believe it. Just like I don't believe everthing that FOX tells me. Fox comes on, and tells people that muslims hate us because we're free, and damn if idiots don't believe it. I could'nt be that we invade their countries for no damn reason at all.

hindu indian   January 12th, 2009 3:49 pm ET

all that israel asks for is for hamas to stop sending rockets into israel.once they agree i am sure all this attack by the israeli army will stop.

sarah   January 12th, 2009 3:49 pm ET

CS,

I agree. And that is where the ARAB league should come in. They would be the ones to get this region together and start creating homogeneity. instead as if they are on separate continents.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 3:54 pm ET

great comment CS

sarah   January 12th, 2009 3:57 pm ET

but then now that I think on it. I think i just had a Sci-Fi experience. What would happen if there was Asia, New Europe(eu), Old europe, ME, North and south America(there is talk about the NAU)? would that then create a situation of battle for supremacy?

sarah   January 12th, 2009 4:00 pm ET

sorry, I got off track for a moment there.

I was happy to see/read this morning on US media a report on what types of weapons the Israelis are using, and how it's creating so many civilian casualties. mainly a report on the WP.

Eman   January 12th, 2009 4:03 pm ET

Is the people of Isreal heart so black? How can they sit back and allow this to happen? You suffered the Holucast and yet you are doing the same to the palestinian. I dont care if your Jewish, Muslim, Christian, or any other religion. All i want to know How can you sit back and see innocent children dying!!!! Jews wanted everyone to symphatize with them because of the Holucast....well its ashame your doing the same to innocent people of Palestine. Try living their life and you will understand their suffering. Holucast survivors were misplaced well the same with palestinian. I hate what israel is doing to Palestinian people and I will never symphatize with the Jews for what happen during the Holucast because they are no different than Hitler. Brothers and sisters will remember this day and revenge thier loved ones. Noone is to blame when this happens but Isreal

harvey   January 12th, 2009 4:05 pm ET

CS

I really don't want to get into this...but

1. Israel accepted partition in "48 the Arab States did not.
2. Egypt is a Moslem country. There is a border right there with Gaza. Why hasn't the oil wealth of the Arab nations flowed in through theat portal over the years. Why not have all the supplies needed come flooding through? Why has the arab world not helped its bretheren?
3. I really resent you telling me that we teach our children to hate the Palestinians. The vast majority of us do not. If our dream of peace is to flourish the contrary must occur.
4. I would be more than happy for an independent peace keeping force to go in. Unnaceptable to Egypt and Hamas.As for braeking of cease fire I am not sure that you can be 100% certain that it is us?
5. This ain't some Bruce Willis, Chuck Norris movie where you can send in the dirty dozen or kosher kilos to take out the bad guys.....
6. As for media bias, it seems that our side and the other side are consistently unhappy with the way the facts and our arguments are being presented.
Finally as I have consistently said. Scratch at the old scabs of history for the wrongs or the rights of who should be here. Fact is we are both here now and somehow there must be a way we can go forward together peacefully. As far as I see it majority of us Israelis would be well in favor.

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 4:07 pm ET

Jonas.

your posts shows your Ignorance and hate towards Muslims I am sure you never met one you never read one book about Islam.
Is it a surprise that you are so hateful toward Muslims it is people like you who create Misery and Genocide in this world..I am sure you are teaching your children this hate.I am sure your house is full of hate.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 4:12 pm ET

Guys,

Take care have to run....
shalom Y'all.
CS we'll get back to debate later. meanwhile take care!

Akiva   January 12th, 2009 4:12 pm ET

uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA

CS   January 12th, 2009 4:12 pm ET

Well, I have to go. To Harvey: It was nice talking to you. We seem to have understood each others plight. I wish there was more of this kind of dialect in here, and less hateful ignorant misinformed talk. But, one day at a time.

To Sarah, Christian Who Is Just, Ben, Mohammed, and Hunk.
It's nice to have dialect with some people who want to fight the opression of the the Palestinian people. I'll talk to you again soon.

In closing for now..I would like to remind everyone that Bill Clinton had
both sides ready to sign the treaty. Unfortunately, he was the outgoing president, and the incoming...well, you know him. But we were close.
Close to a juncture inhistory where we can have Muslims, and Jews who live in peace, and are able to prosper, and not worry about their childrens future. I used to think that the sons and daughters of Isaac and Ismael would hate eachother forever. This is even stated in the Bible, to a degree. But sometimes I wonder if God tests us this way, in order to see if we will love eachother the way that kin should. As both religions spawned from the same father, Abraham. Beacuse it was written that the brothers would be set against each other, does it mean that we don't have the power...the free will to stop that? And more importantly..just because it was written, is this what the God of the world wants?

Talk to you soon.

Christian who is just   January 12th, 2009 4:17 pm ET

in agreement with CS

Chris Pavano   January 12th, 2009 4:21 pm ET

If Hammas waterboards Isreali soilders they took prisoners to find out something that might save hundreds of lives of their own people is that torture or is only legal when Isreal and America do it

sarah   January 12th, 2009 4:21 pm ET

Bye.

sarah   January 12th, 2009 4:24 pm ET

January 12th, 2009 1621 GMT

If Hammas waterboards Isreali soilders they took prisoners to find out something that might save hundreds of lives of their own people is that torture or is only legal when Isreal and America do it
---------------------------
That's a horrible question but in some way spot on.
Of course I don't know what type of crime it would be as Hamas, is not officially a gov't. or is it? Is it a terrorist group or isn't?

(slap forehead) I'm confused

Chris Pavano   January 12th, 2009 4:31 pm ET

If Hammas stops firing rockets does the Palestinian people go free
or is it back to jail.
Isreal is just like America we rounded up the Indians and held them until they died off. Isreal did the same thing taking land that belongs to someone else.Only proplem the Palestinians wont die off it's just the opposit they are like rabbitts plus China is siding with Hammas what know Isreal is running out of time in fact I think it's to late for them.
America supported Serbia until the Germans armed Croatia and we can't be on the looing side will we drop Isreal the same way after all Serbia and Isreal have close ties.Both are war criminals and both should be treated as in that maner

sarah   January 12th, 2009 4:31 pm ET

The worst thing about this.

IF HAMAS is a terrorist org, on scale of Al Qaida/taliban etc....then wtf is the west doing? Why are they only in Afghan and Iraq? Why has there been no discussion of going into the area to eradicate them?..

oh how the political winds turn.

I wouldn't be suprized if Israel is the US scapegoat in this. So, while i disagree with Zionist on principal....who is worse, the Zionists or Hamas. see Zionists are NOT Jews for the most part. Just as could be said about Hamas not being muslim.

So who is playing whom?

sarah   January 12th, 2009 4:34 pm ET

DID i just open a can of worms?

Angry Nubian   January 12th, 2009 4:40 pm ET

Deborah Al-Qanai,

Good points but do not forget that history is always written by the winners.

Taiking about "black Americans" the real and true history of the black man will never be told until we see the "true bible" and not the King James edition or that used bty the MORMONS.

The British still has a price to pay for their crimes of slavery. Ask how many blacks, young and women in particular were thrown over board for sharks when the ships were too full to carry on . The Atlantic ocean is full of the ghosts of these innocent slaves.

Again, though they were not the framers, America has a price to pay but the British has a bigger price including others even some Arab and yes African countries still have a big price to pay for these ungodly deeds.

Also a British documentary producer whose name escapes me Attenborough????once said regarding Egypt, Ethiopia, Italy and Greece and the black or African race and about their business savvy, their talents in trading, education and medicine and the working relationships they forged with the Greeks, Italians and others.

He said "Africans were held in high esteem and regards and everything was fine and working until the British came" You can check this out if you so choose

Look, the British were the framers of racism and they take it every where they go. The British were bullies and they were the ones who forced America into the slave trade.

They made an ultimatum to America "you do it or else" because of the power of the British.

CS   January 12th, 2009 4:41 pm ET

Ok. I was juuust about to leave, but let's clear some things up.
1. Why would Palestine and "Arab states " accept the removal of themselves from their own land, to which they have owned for the previous 1200 tyears?

2. You have proven your racist nature. Just because Egypt and Palestine share a boarder does not mean it is the shares the same culture/ideals. The U.S. shares a boarder with Mexico, but I assure you..two different places.

3. If the "vast" civilian population of Israel wanted peace, why were settlement communities being built on Palestinian land as of late. It's bad enough they were forced to give their best, most recourceful land away in 1948, now you have to encroach even more?
4. Nobody's talkin about Hollywood or none of that other garbage you're talking about. But you show your naivetay by thinking that the only way to resolve a conflict is through all out war. With the technological advances they have these days, you're telling me that they can't find Bin Laden without sending all forces...including the National guard? They have already had Bin Laden in their sights, but let him escape anyway. But that's another story.

5.If you google Haaretz, and who broke cease fire first, you'll see that even an israeli media source has broken the news that Israel has broken the ceas fire first, which caused a Palestinian response, then Palestine went back to the orders of the cease fire, only for CNN's Rick Sanchez to expose the second incursion into Palestine in November of 08' That aside from the blockades. But as I said..insufficient media coverage.

6. I pray that the majority of Israel can convince it's leaders to treat Palestine with respect, then maybe there will be peace. If they choose not, can you blame Palestine for retaliating? As I stated earlier..The every day people are not responsible for the decisions of it's leadership.

Glenn   January 12th, 2009 4:55 pm ET

I have been reading the posts here for the last 2 hours, and I need to voice out my thoughts as well.

I have lived in the Middle East (Dubai for that matter), and this war has to stop. Hamas needs to stop firing useless rockets to Israel, but at the same time, Israel needs to release the blockade on Gaza, and give 100% ownership of Gaza to Palestine.

I have seen a lot of comments earlier stating that Israel gave Gaza to Palestine 2 years ago, but that is not the absolute truth. The absolute truth is that Gaza belonged to Palestine in the first place, but up to now Israel has controled the borders and air space, making Gaza 1 huge prison. For example, going to the West Bank from Gaza requires permits from the Israeli Gov't which takes hours (this was before this Dec-Jan conflict started).

The facts are as follows:

Shelter – The entire civilian population in the Gaza strip remains vulnerable, with no safe haven, no bomb shelters, and with closed borders making it one of the rare conflicts where "civilians have no place to flee".

Fuel and Electricity – Imagine our situation where we would have daily blackouts, and it escalates into an issue where we were required to buy home generators powered by petrol. In Gaza, there is only one power plant, and it is down. Backup generators do not work because there are no fuel going inside Gaza. As of Jan 4, they have experienced 24 hours blackouts, causing 90% of the telephone networks to go down, and have no means to heat or cook because of lack of fuel. As of Jan 7, most of the civilians in Gaza continues to live without electricity.

Water – Due to Israeli blockades, there has been a shortage of chlorine for water treatment, increasing the risk of water diseases. Include also the destruction of water wells leaving tens of thousands of people without water. Sewerage pipelines were also damaged, causing sewer waters to pour into the streets. 70% of the 1.5 million people in Gaza have no access to drinking water.

Health – Weakened by the eighteen-month Blockade of the Gaza Strip, as of 31 December the central drug store reported that 105 drugs and 255 medical supplies of the essential drug and supplies list are still unavailable, and approximately 20 percent of the ambulances were grounded due to lack of spare parts.

Journalists – Journalists have been prohibited by Israel to enter Gaza to report, which is not acceptable. "It's not being monitored, because it's not being reported, then almost inevitably the loss of lives, the abuse of people's human rights, is going to be greater than it would be if it was being properly reported in a way that we would usually expect."

2008 is supposedly a year of disappointments, with the financial crisis affecting all life around the world. 2009 should not be remembered as the Gaza-Israel conflict. The world leaders should pressure for the cease-fire as soon as possible, and allow aid workers to reach the needy.

And lastly, I am not pro-Hamas nor pro-Israel. I am against Hamas for the ideology that they convey, but I am also against Israel for the attack on Gaza. 900 dead people does not make the operation succesful; it makes it a mistake. What have we learned from the past wars? I am pro-peace, and religion has nothing to do with it.

Den   January 12th, 2009 4:57 pm ET

> the majority of Israel can convince it’s leaders to treat Palestine with respect, then maybe there will be peace.

Like in 2005 after withdrawal?

> can you blame Palestine for retaliating?

In my eyes, firing Quassams and Grads is (a) stupid and (b) asking for trouble. As long as that happens, I can't support Gaza side, regardless or any kind of embargo from Israel.

Daren   January 12th, 2009 5:01 pm ET

Whatever it is, be it the jews or the muslims claiming one another is the enemy.

Do the rest of the world a favour.

You people just keep those problems to your side of the world.

racasel   January 12th, 2009 5:10 pm ET

Video of an analysis of a middle eastern woman about the muslims and why they will never accept anybody unless they are muslims too.

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak

racasel   January 12th, 2009 5:14 pm ET

When the jews are eliminated, who will the muslims take on next? the budhist? catholics? Hindi?, protestants?, mormons? ????

bilal TEXAS   January 12th, 2009 5:17 pm ET

answers can be found in the greatest documentary of all times
"OCCUPATION 101" look for it on google and spend a few minutes watching it that way you can know the truth for yourselves.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 5:26 pm ET

1. India and Pakistan accepted partition. So precedent exists in the world.
2. Why am I racist by thinking that Egypt a moslem country has a duty of care to its moslem neighbour? Egypt as an Arb nation has far more in common with Gaza than usJews. Fine if you want to blame the Israelis for the "siege" conveniently ignoring the only reason why access into our country became restricted was because of suicide bombings. But if you only blame Israel for the siege and you don't bame Egypt conrolling the Arab gateway, then with respaet it is you who is being racist.
3. We showed how willing we were to look for peace by dismantling our settlements.

Every gesture of goodwill undertaken by Israel has been seized on by its enemies
as a sign of weakness. Every Israeli effort towards peace has led without exception to an increase in violence against Israel. The Oslo Peace Process led directly to the first Palestinian suicide attacks in Israel.

Taba: the most generous offer Israel ever made to the Palestinians, led directly to the most concerted set of terrorist attacks against any nation in modern history.

The Gaza Withdrawal, the most painful act Israel has ever had to undertake, led
within less than a year to 1000 Kassam rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets
including schoolchildren.

We do not want more territory.We give it up for the promise of peace. We just need a partner.

5. With respect to haaretz, I view them the same way you view Fox.
7.With regard to war....we have put up with the rockets for 8 years.

What Hamas have said in word and deed is:
We will kill you if you stay
And we will kill you if you leave.
We will kill you if you retaliate
And we will kill you if you don’t retaliate.
What can Israel do but to seek to end the terror
That threatens and is meant to threaten its very existence?

We have no choice but to fight. All very well for you to judge but you don't live in Sderot.
8. I repeat the prayer that the Chief Rabbi of Great Britain made yesterday which I am fully in agreement with:

Listen to this, our prayer on their behalf.
Grant peace to all your children, Jew, Christian and Muslim alike.
Help us live together, respecting one another.
Help us cherish life.
Help us to use the powers You gave us, to heal, to mend, to build.
We ask of You, Almighty God, just one thing:
You who make peace in high places,
Help us make peace down here on earth.

Amen to that!

CS   January 12th, 2009 5:26 pm ET

racist...i mean racasel, if you pick up a book every once in a while you'll see that Jews and Muslims lived together in Palestine prior to the forcefull takeover in 1948. Prior to 1948, in the first part of the century, there were about 1million Muslims there, and 100 thousand Jews. These numbers were so, because this was in fact the land of Palestine, but they still allowed Jews to settle there, and relative peace insued until 1948 when the U.N. decided to declare Palestine the new Israel. If it were Germany who perpetrated the events of the Holocaust, then why is not Israel in East Germany somewhere? It would seem only fair to give the land of those who committed the crime to the Jews? Why bother the Palestinians? Can you answer that. Don't come back with some off the wall generalization...just answer that question.

CS   January 12th, 2009 5:34 pm ET

Now Harvey. Just when I started to think you were okay, your true side comes out. But I still have faith. I will not be like some, who say that all Jews are bad. Just because you don't want to recognize your countries bad behavior, does not mean that other Jews will overlook it.
For example: If you go to http://www.ifamericansknew.com and look under the history dropdown, you will see the history of this conflict.
And I am happy to say that it was in fact, written by an Jewish professor. And he has my respect, because it's hard to admitt wrongdoin if your a part of it.

Tony Larue   January 12th, 2009 5:37 pm ET

Darren

Shame on you! The Middle East problems are our problems I want you to know. How cannot it not be our problem when we see Gazans including innocent children, and the elderly being blown to bits by bombs and rockets?

It is evil to have human beings in such a small place then tell them to go somewhere because they are in the cross fire knowning full well that they are going to be killed. Where do they have to go???????

How can we sit by when people cannot go about their daily lives in Israel because of rockets?

Change governments get fresh reasonable non-warring leaders who can have meaningful dialogue faces and stop the recycling of leaders whose only goal is to put a good face on for an election.

harvey   January 12th, 2009 5:41 pm ET

CS

We can go back and forth playing ping pong on who has the rightful claim to the land.We can both produce valid arguments and both of us have countless times, never accepted by the other party...so fruitless to even go there.

Thats not the issue now.
The issue now is two peoples are here and how are we going to live together and break the cycle of violence?

Lets stop the blame game...as to who did what to who and what should have been done and its all someone else's fault.

The future is what we should concentrate on....

spiraling down   January 12th, 2009 5:52 pm ET

All the whining and crying will not change the fact that both sides have made zero progress in the cease fire talks. All Israel has to do is stand down. All Hamas (the speaking government for Gaza) has to do is agree to stop firing rockets into Israel.
Since neither is willing to do something that requires common sense more Palestinians will die.
Since the rest of the Arab world, the Governments of Islamic Republics, have done nothing tangible for Gaza, I can only assume that they have had enough of the tribulations in Gaza and moved on with their lives.
Farewell Gaza, good riddance.

Nona   January 12th, 2009 5:58 pm ET

Hi Harvey! Good to see your beautiful voice of reason shining through again! I love the beautiful prayer you posted above and believe it expresses the wishes of many Christians and Jews around the world. I just have a quick sec before I have to run but wanted you to know ...

I was in Atlanta yesterday and went to the Support Israel rally in front of the CNN headquarters. There were thousands of pro-Israel supporters there - it far outnumbered the pro-Hamas demonstration on the other side of the street. The Support Israel side was a massive sea of people - I couldn't even work myself from one end of the crowd to the other, there were so many people. CNN doesn't seem to have noticed this huge ralley taking place at its front door, but please know Israel definitely has the support of the American people in eradicating radical Islamic terrorists who refuse to let the people of Israel live in peace.

May we ALL put our heads on our pillows tonight knowing we and our children are safe from those who wish to destroy us, regardless of their nationality and regardless of their religion! Peace for Israel! Peace for the Palestinian people! Peace for all! Have a great day! Bye!

harvey   January 12th, 2009 5:58 pm ET

Sorry guys,

Really have to run now....

CS Loke you I almost feel we got somwhere tonight.

Everbody take care!

harvey   January 12th, 2009 6:04 pm ET

Hi Nona...

Take care....Just wanted to say a personal hi and goodbye.
Great that you went to the rally. Us here in Israel really appreciate the support.

Will leave CS and the gang to you.

Thank you and God bless!

Isreal Lover   January 12th, 2009 6:23 pm ET

I am not Jewish or Christian and I'm not a fan of any other organized religious group in the world. If that means I am going to burn in hell when I die, (if the heaven/hell concept exists in every religion?), I'm taking my chances because I've survived this long without religion. I support Isreal in its right to exist as a state and its right to self-defence.
Also, I support Isreal because I know for certain that it is the only true ally that the U.S./Canada has amongst the ME countries, Iran, Syria and North Korea. I embrace the Jewish people simply because I am 100% certain that Isreal will not attack the U.S. or Canada and I know that a Jewish terrorist will not try to blow up me or my country. I have never been afraid of anyone Jewish or anything Isreali but I am deeply offended and disturbed by the militant Islamists and the extreme hate shown by them in their demonstrations against Isreal around the world.

The picture in Gaza is not pretty but it is a war zone and I think it is terrible that so many lives are being lost because of the Hamas terrorists. Shifa Hospital is being used by them as a base to operate out of and they even have an underground bunker there. It is well documented that Hamas is stealing aid and killing Palestinians who are not supportive of them. Isreal refuses to bomb this hospital because the civilians in there obviously but in a war zone every target is fair game. No other country in the world would have used the restraint and caution that Isreal has shown to date.

When are the Hamas leaders going to come out of hiding and agree to a cease fire? They are using the Palestinian civilians as pawns for their own agenda in this fight and the other Arab states have a lot to answer for also, especially Egypt and Syria for aiding Hamas to smuggle in their arms for the last 8 years. In fact, over the last 60 years the other Arab states seem to have done very little to help the Palestinians and continue to keep them in refugee camps and use them for cheap labour (eg. Jordan) and impose all sorts of restrictions on them. Isreal is not the only guilty party in this conflict.

racasel   January 12th, 2009 6:44 pm ET

Watch this video and understand the muslims. with english sub-title.

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak

Debs   January 12th, 2009 7:04 pm ET

Dan, Beny, Solomon,

Where are you guys??

I cant comment anymore as there is no one on hear making any sensible comments. Too much propoganda and hate.

Too many people commenting and dont really know what is really going on.

Ive tried a couple of times to put my to cents worth in............

Solomon, still waiting for my reply......

brodeur786   January 12th, 2009 7:22 pm ET

The only way to truly understand what is happening in Gaza is to go there. Go with a tour guide and they will show exactly which parts of Israel were Palestine 50 years ago. The Israeli government allowed and directed their forces to tear down the houses of innocent Palestinian families, and after this they built their own settlements.

Hamas has, and always will try and get back that land, that their parents and grandparents were forced out of, and often killed for. The two sides have been going at it for a while, and Israel is just using Hamas as an excuse for ethnic cleansing.

Some Zionists believe that Masjid Al-Aqsa stands on the land which is where the Temple of Solomon once stood. Read the following instances and you'll hopefully understand that Israel is at fault here.

http://tagtag.com/aqsa/attacks_on_masjid...

Stop watching CNN and all of the ******** articles online. If you really want to know what's going on, and you truly care, go there and see what's happening first-hand.

Israel is NOT acting in self-defense, they have been the offender for the better part of 6 decades. Nobody has noticed because in the bigger scheme of things they have been subtle and haved moved slowly........at times they accelerated whatever it is that they attempt to accomplish.....but rather patiently.......until now.

John   January 12th, 2009 7:30 pm ET

War is hell. Hamas needs to quick shooting rockets and recognizes Israel's right to exist. Hamas's credo is to destroy Israel. How do you have peace with Hamas on your border. One can argue about proportionality, but this is mainly Hamas's doing. The Palestinians will never have peace with Israel with Hamas in control

Isreal Lover   January 12th, 2009 7:32 pm ET

Racasel,
Good video ... I have seen it before but can't remember the lady's name. I tend to agree with her, although I don't really know about the passages of the Koran she is talking about. Interesting, the older guy at the end wouldn't debate further with her?

Brian   January 12th, 2009 7:45 pm ET

if the arabs would put down the gunds there would be peace, if israel would put the guns down there would be no israel. The arabs have over 99% of the mid east land almost 100% of the mideast oil and petro dollars and they still are not happy.
The arabs have enough land and money to settle everyone very nicely if they choose. Why dont they try tht and see what would happen?
give peace a chance, use the peto mega dollars to give the poor arabs a future and hope. The rich arabs kindoms have enought moeny and land to do this is they choose

give peace a chance

racasel   January 12th, 2009 7:59 pm ET

Israel lover
I was surprised as well that it came from aljazeera. I think the name of the lady is shown at the start of the video.

Meir, Holon, Israel   January 12th, 2009 8:01 pm ET

To all of you how call us nazi's etc, etc.

Where are you when since 1948 the Islam world tries to destroy us and to create a second hollocaust.

The UN charter clearly states that all nation shall live in peace and unafraid of agression, Why don't you require the UN to expell Iran, who clearly calls for the destruction of Israel and its people. A UN in which 30% of all countries are principally against the existence of Israel.

You were at home, making plans for your next vacation.

Let me tel you: Our army is the most humane in the world, we even distributed thousands of leaflets before bombing civilian areas. Dit your army do that in Irak, Afganistan. Look at what the Russians did in Grozny, or Nato in ex-Jugoslavie. I don't remember one single example in which Allied forces in WW II cared about civilians
We let humanitarian aid enter, knowing that Hamas would use these hours to setup rockets to be launched into Israel, not caring where they shall fall, they even prefer civilian targets. In all those accidents thousends and thousends died.

You were at home, making plans for your next vacation.

We do not occupy a single square meter of Arab soil, or you should maybe also return Washington, DC to its (in your eyes) legal owners, the indian tribe who lived there before you came there to settle and create your great country, which I respect sincerely for the democracy and freedom it brought to the world.

We are willing to give up some of these areas in order to live in peace with our Arab neighbors, that is why we left Gaza in 2005. Leaving behind a working infrastructure (mainly agriculture) so that they might have a running start. In one week they destroyed all that and starting a new infrastructure: Manufacturing rokets to kill Israeli's.

You were at home, making plans for your next vacation.

So when you spout your anti-Israeli venom, we Israeli's don't care. After 2000 years of being led like sheep to Christian and Muslim slaugtherhouses we have taken up arms again to defend ourselves.
That in these conflicts we succeed much more in "hurting" them, they can blame only themselves.
A Mormon historicus, Max I. Dimont wrote in his book: "Jews, God and history" said: It is not a wonder that the Romans defeated the Jewish revolt but is is a wonder that the Jews nearly defeated the Roman Empire. So we have turned back to the sword, not because we like it, but we have learned tthe hard way hat only by defending ourselves we can survive. We learned this from you, Christians, Muslims, etc. This is the way of this world. I did not create it, I don't like it, but so be it.
Where were you when we Jews were taught this by the "Goyim"???

You were at home, making plans for your next vacation.

Sick with empathy   January 12th, 2009 8:09 pm ET

so many women and children dead,
so many non hamas civilians dead,
soon Israel will have Gaza covered in the blood of innocents

Hamas is wrong for shooting rockets, They should be held responsible. But does that justify the annihilation of a whole society of people who do not have any say so in what their government does. Even though they were elected, We as Americans have elected leaders that did not act according to our wishes as a country. Just as we have no say so in what our government does they could not have known that this was the direction their government was headed.
Israel is killing everyone, not just those who threaten them. I believe in protecting innocent people, but not at the price of killing thousands of innocents for a few guilty. Especially when the ratio of Israelis dead to Gazan's dead is grossly different.
The people in Gaza now are blocked in from all sides awaiting death with their families in their arms.
Doesn't Israel remember this similarity in their own history, the Nazi's did the same to them forcing them to watch their families die for no reason other than political policies and religious difference. Where is the compassion, where is the empathy. Children are heard crying in the streets. Mothers clutch their dead children in their arms waiting to be next. Hamas will not stop until everyone in Gaza is dead, neither will Israel. There is no difference between them now. Except to Israel the protection an innocent citizen of Israel is more important than protecting and an innocent citizen of Gaza. Why is that? What makes a citizen of Gaza worth less? Is it Religion?
Everyone in Gaza is dying slowly of hunger, injuries, lack of health care, No electricity, and casualties of war. It would be more merciful to drop an atomic bomb and spare them the suffrage of watching each other die slowly.
The is no longer a clear understanding of who the terrorist is anymore!!

Solomon   January 12th, 2009 8:35 pm ET

racasel.

I watched this debate live on Aljazeera. one thing they are not showing here is her opponents reply she was told by him that she is Ignorant about Islam because she is not a Muslim actually she could not answer most of the Questions by her opponent. her Family disowned her some family members said that she ran away because she was a prostitute.

Serge   January 12th, 2009 8:44 pm ET

A Tough Choice for Israel

Israel does not have much time before its military superiority and its reliance on US support starts to weaken. Cracks in this alliance are already appearing. Israel faces a near unanimous condemnation from the international community. Its PR war to justify the current incursion makes a failing grade. It is trying to hide its Achilles’ heals by hitting Gaza even harder. Israel is acutely aware that it has no chance of winning a political conflict in a battlefield. In fact it has lost this round already. In the end its formidable weaponry and unbridled US support would be the main reason for its downfall. It will prevent Israel from seeking true peace instead of impose one. The landscape in the Middle East and around the world is changing but not in Israel’s favor. After the Gaza dust settles, Israel would be advised to invest in an honest and lasting peace by agreeing to return to pre-1967 boundaries. Failing to do so will make Israel face a very uncertain future. Here is why.
1. Israel is of no strategic importance to the United States. Its current relationship is shaped out guilt from time gone by. Future generations of US leaders will be reluctant to frame their foreign policy on past conjectures. Israel may not be able to enjoy US protection for long.
2. The turmoil of the Middle East and US policy of unconditional Israeli support is hurting US image even among its allies. US cannot continue to be seen as dishonest broker.
3. With the wide use of the Internet media Americans can now see unfiltered news that paint the Mid-East situated in very different light than their own TV sets.
4. Iraq war has made American wary of politicians. They are now looking for a change in foreign policy that does not drag US in proxy wars for others.
5. US plans to invest heavily in renewable energy and more secure Canadian oil sands for its future needs. This move will free the US of its heavy reliance on Arab oil and will weaken the need for a strong Israel-US alliance.
6. The power shift from the West to the East with the rise of China and India will leave the US relatively weaker. This will play against Israeli interest.
7. Iran is gaining strength and could become nuclear rival neutralizing Israel’s current advantage. Continuing Palestine-Israel hostilities could one day ignite the entire Middle East and beyond.
8. Israel’s current incursion into Gaza in the long run will strengthen Hamas’ popularity among Arab populace
9. US will likely broker a deal with the Talibans in Afghanistan. This will be seen as victory by forces against Israel.
10. Although less likely Arab states will get their act together to pose a common front to Israel.
11. Israel’s continued defiance of UN will weaken the international body if it hasn’t done already. This would ultimately harm Israel.
12. Israel has very few friends to lean on and even less in the Middle East region. It risks losing the remaining support due to its uncompromising attitude.
13. Many corrupt Mid-East Sheikhdoms will give way to more emancipated rulers that may not sit idle while Palestinians languish in Israel’s Warsaw-like ghettos.

CS   January 12th, 2009 8:45 pm ET

AAAHHH. Finally, someone from the region comes out with it. THANK YOU GLENN!!!. Maybe Hamas is stupid for firing missiles into Israel. I DO think that Palestine has run out of patience waiting for the U.N. to intercede, thus giving Hamas an argument. I think Hamas just want to fight...period. However, Israel gives them a very good reason to fight. Just agreeing on paper to leave Gaza, but still opressing them from behind the scenes, and with the help of other nations is unacceptable.
The U.S./Israel?Britain, and others are hypocrites. Israel bombs Palestine with American made ammunition. Nobody says that America is "Aiding TerrORISTS" When Egypt allows the tunnels to stay open, why are they not called allies instead of "harberers of terrosist"

CS   January 12th, 2009 9:04 pm ET

I think that there is a way to fix this problem. In 1948, the U.S. and U.N. got Israel on it's feet. In fact, to this day, the artillary used by Israel comes from The U.S. In its 60 short years, Israel has become a flourishing democracy, and powerful nation. Not because they're "Gods's people" or any kind of misconception, but because it was nourished, and given training wheels by other governments.
Regardless of how I, and others feel about Palestine ( they're horribly opressed and raped country), the same should be done for them. If they were given a chance at

1. Freedom from opression from Israel, no blockades, no control of water/imports by Israel. COMPLETE independance from Israeli interference.

2. Infrastructure. If they were given funding, and engineering help with electricity plants (Water turbines/wind/and ro solar), they could have an economy that works. People could have jobs, and the energy could be clean, and nobody would have to be concerned about nuclear plants.

3. More infrastructure. Roads (paved that is), bridges.

4. Education. We all know that educated nations tend to flourish.

5. Defense (non-nukes initially of course). If the people had a strong enough military to protect from outside influence in the region, they would not have to rely on groups like Hamas to fight for them.

I'm no great leader of nations, or any sized group for that matter, but it has been done for other nations, including Israel. Why not Palestine. It has been too long.

I might also add that if these things happened, and the people had something to hold onto, something to leave to their children, hope for their children, and dignity for it's elders, and frankly, something productive to do for the age group in the middle...People would not allow groups like Hamas/Al Quaida to bully them. They would be frowned upon in the community, right before having a firm ass kicking by the local authorities/guard. Same as here. If things get out of hand, we have agencies to intervene.

Anita   January 12th, 2009 9:05 pm ET

Israel, I cannot judge for fighting back and I cannot judge you on how far you've taken this but the death toll is extreme. However, I do know, he is watching you cleanse your body in all this blood as he watched someone else cleanse their body in Israel's blood. Oh, Israel remember his Judgement is the Word.

Glenn   January 12th, 2009 9:10 pm ET

Don't be fooled by Israel's claims that they are winning... There are no winners in any conflict, may it be a family dispute, LA eastside/westside, cross-border conflicts. This war will bite us all in the rear; I am thinking that the future generations of Palestinians will remember how they were attacked, children and elderly killed/injured, schools, mosques, hospitals destroyed. All other facts like Hamas firing rockets to Israel will be null, and the fighting cycle will rinse and repeat.

The cease-fire must happen NOW. Aid must be given to the needy, and leaders must SIT and TALK, get a comprimise and have extremist groups accountable for any wrongdoing.

Freedom, Peace, Acceptance will not happen overnight; but we should TRY and SET AN EXAMPLE for the future generations. This must also be applicable to the other continents as well.

ONE WORLD y'all. When is the better time than now?

Isreal Lover   January 12th, 2009 9:16 pm ET

To Sick WIth Empathy, The few guilty in Gaza number some 20,000 Hamas miltant crazies who have terrorized the ordinary Palestinians for the last 8 years. Also, they took control of the Fatah/Abbas factions there in a bloody takeover, killing many of them. The Palestinians did elect Hamas and must take some responsibilty for that choice, even if in reality they probably didn't dare voice real opposition.

Would Hamas agree to a cease fire for a couple of days to let all the civilians (women, children, unarmed men) leave Gaza .... would Egypt or some area outside Gaza strip be willing to take these people temporarily? Then Isreal/Hamas could finish the fight by themselves.
Why don't utra rich Gulf Arab states fly in a few planes to evacuate these people? They easily have the money, transport and areas in the Gulf to house them temporarily. So far, Hamas doesn't want to agree to anything?

CS   January 12th, 2009 9:24 pm ET

RIGHT ON GLENN!!
To Israel lover. Don't be so quick to place the blame on Palestine. I can see you are a true Supporter of Israel because you give examples of things to do for everyone in the region, except for Israel. Israel has i'ts part in this. They are far from innocent. (govt wise). And to the supporters of Israel. Not long ago, Jews were being killed by the masses, the same way Muslims are being killed by the masses today. So tell me what makes you different from those who blindliy supported The LUNE called Hitler. He too, said that a group of people were the cause of all the world's trouble. He too said that the Nazi's were "chosen" to be the master race. What makes you any different?
I see nothing at all.

Rouz from California   January 12th, 2009 9:26 pm ET

I think all of it would be settled if the rightful owners of the land were occupying it.... That means that Israel wouldn't exist I guess, maybe... Maybe it would and it would be smaller. Unfortunately,

Israel is about to silence the Arab voice in Israel's government. That doesn't seem very democratic, especially since 20% of the population is Arab.

In the mean time, how does anyone justify dropping bombs on Gaza? The only answer would be ethnic cleansing. They are fish in a barrel. Their borders and economy was cut off so any reserves they had were low. An instant humanitarian crisis was surely going to develope. Can anyone sit there and tell me Israeli military intel didn't know about it?

You cannot justify killing an innocent civillian to save a soldiers life. These bombs are wrong and unjustifiable. It deeply disturbs me that anyone can stand behind the use of these weapons of mass destruction.

It is not about whose land it is now, right now it is about stopping this criminal act. I don't care whose side you are on, if you do not act or support a stop to this, we will all pay for it.

Tony Larue   January 12th, 2009 9:33 pm ET

Serge,

Wow, what a thought provoking and powerful commentory. I sincerely hope the powers that be in Israel and it's citizens take note.

You cannot kill all the people in Gaza and destroy their infrastucture and expect business as usual. There is a new day a dawning folks and we'll all be better for it.. Sege, I am counting on you and the world who is not anti-Israel but have to face the facts. Please give Brother Obama all the help he needs to make the much needed changes.

This sad destruction of Gaza maybe the straw that broke the camel's back. My only fear is the problems Mr. Obama will get by making much needed changes in Middle East policy.

The US has no more billions for aid to Israel and they know it and it is starting to show.

Finally, if israel decides to hit Iran goodbye Israel and it will be their own fault. My fear is they will do it either before Obama takes office or there after. I DO NOT TRUST ISRAEL AND NEITHER SHOULD YOU!

sadman   January 12th, 2009 9:33 pm ET

This is a sad situation and so sad I am.
In order to better understand this horrible situation I went to learn a bit of a history.
I truely recommand all readers to do so.
It will increase your ability to write a talkback which is a bit more connected to reality.
Here is the link:

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
What Really Happened In The Middle East – Terrorism Awareness Project

Serge   January 12th, 2009 9:40 pm ET

ISRAEL MUST WITHDRAW TO ITS LEGAL PRE-1967 BOARDERS. PALESTINIANS HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO CONTINUE THEIR STRUGGLE TO GET ISRAEL OUT OF THE LAND THAT WAS CARVED OUT FOR THEIR HOMELAND.

ISRAEL, STOP ACTING LIKE A SPOILED KID AND GET THE HELL OUT OF THEIR LAND. GIVE UP WHAT IS NOT YOUR. STOP MISLEADING THE WORLD AND FEEDING TERRORISM.

NO ONE WILL GIVE A DAMN WHAT ISRAEL DOES WITHIN ITS LEGAL BOARDERS AND NOT AN INCH MORE. HAMAS WILL HAVE NO SUPPORT OR REASON TO LOB ROCKETS AT YOU. YOU CAN'T KILL THEM ALL. I KNOW YOU ARE TRYING.

HAMAS HAS A MORAL RIGHT TO HIT ITS OPPRESSOR. DO YOU GET IT ISRAEL. WILL YOU WITHDRAW TO YOUR RIGHTFUL BOARDERS. LET ME GUESS – YOU WON'T. YOU WILL USE ANY EXCUSE UNDER THE SUN TO KEEP STOLEN LAND UNTIL YOUR LIFE BECOMES UNBEARABLE. THAT MAY HAPPEN SOONER THAN YOU THINK.

IS THIS A ROCKET SCIENCE?

Isreal Lover   January 12th, 2009 9:42 pm ET

Correction: Too many people to evacuate quickly. Instead, lets take Hamas and Isreali military to the Empty Quarter desert and let them fight it out. Winner, takes all.

This conflict reminds me of a never-ending ugly divorce. He said/she said and on it goes.

Calli   January 12th, 2009 9:46 pm ET

What makes supporters of Israel different from "those who blindly supported the LUNE called Hitler?"

Well, for starters, Hitler and his armies were NOT doing their dirty work to defend their citizens against 11,000 rockets launced at their civilians (and counting).

There's more, but I won't bother. You cannot see the difference. Always a pity when men gouge out their own eyes and then complain that they can't see.

Glenn   January 12th, 2009 10:20 pm ET

"Well, for starters, Hitler and his armies were NOT doing their dirty work to defend their citizens against 11,000 rockets launced at their civilians (and counting).

There’s more, but I won’t bother. You cannot see the difference. Always a pity when men gouge out their own eyes and then complain that they can’t see."

The Palestinian will always argue that it would not have happened if their land has not been occupied forcefully. And the Israelis will counter-argue that they are merely defending their land. And the Palestinians will counter-counter-argue that they are merely defending theirs as well.. so on... blah blah blah.. yada yada yada.

Stop arguing and provide solutions... Both sides are being hard headed and not looking at logic – Innocent civilians from both sides are affected and dying.

Damien Blackley   January 12th, 2009 10:38 pm ET

Had Israel attack Iran, would it still exist?

The facts are that Iran would not attack Israel, this would simply give the Americans an excuse to do to Iran what Israel is doing in Gaza. Punish the Innocent.

It is better for Israel to give the Palestinians there independence and make peace with their neighbors now . Why, because there is every indication that Iraq will have a similar regime to Iran. Look at who is fast becoming the dominant religious party in Iraq.

Remeber the Iranian Revolution.

Degi   January 12th, 2009 11:21 pm ET

YOU NEED TO WAKE UP AMERICA!
YOU ARE WORSE THAN NORTH KOREA, your goverment is controlled by isreal and jews who control everything, your media your army your president. YOU THINK YOU HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH and FREEDOM OF EVERYTHING, but you DONT. Numorous freelance journalists have been silenced or killed, websites shut down, but there are still ppl who want to let out the truth.

WAR IN IRAQ was for one purpose only: oil and strengthening of Isreal. Even theories taht 911 was an inside job to get support on AL-Quada (which strongly opposed Isreal force on Gaza), and Iraq (lies about WMD's). The thousands dead in Iraq are 100% america's fault.

WAR ON GAZA: the cease fire was broken in november when isreal gunemen attacked and killed 6 palestines, which resulted in rockets starting to fire from Hamas. If this was Russia attacking Georgia the USA would be flying in straight away, but oh wait Isreal controls USA so americans cant do squat.

FUTURE WAR ON IRAN: Iran is a part of the nuclear treaty and has the right to build civilian nuclear facilites, and its a violation of international law that the US even mentioned force on Iran. and your media has mistranslated and blocked what the president of iran was saying during that 60m interview.

AND YOU AMERICANS WONDER WHERE THE HATE IS COMING FROM, its directed at your blindess and stupidity, being controlled by power hungry jews.

Seriously look for media other than the now isreal controlled main stream media you watch on tv and cnn etc. I wont be surprised if this is deleted in 5 mins.

Seriously WAKE UP, YOU ARE THE ONES BLIND, not the world.

Isreal Lover   January 12th, 2009 11:24 pm ET

Serge – A Tough Choice for Israel
After the Gaza dust settles, Israel would be advised to invest in an honest and lasting peace by agreeing to return to pre-1967 boundaries. Failing to do so will make Israel face a very uncertain future. Here is why.

1. Absolutely disagree. Isreal is of great strategic importance to the United States because of Iran. Further, the rich Gulf Arab countries pay for U.S. military protection because of Iran. e.g. Kuwait paid for the U.S. to defend it from Iraq in the first Gulf War. Do you know how much money is tied up between the U.S. and Saudi, UAE, Qatar and how big the U.S. military bases are in the region, along with the U.S. navy in the Arabian Gulf. Isreal is and always will be the only true U.S. ally in the ME region and the U.S. cannot afford to lose their help.

2. The turmoil of the Middle East and US policy of unconditional Israeli support is hurting US image even among its allies. US cannot continue to be seen as dishonest broker.

Quite frankly, the US image is being hurt in Europe and I don't really think we care too damn much. In fact Britain and its weird PM Brown and his current gov't need a reality check the way things are going over there. How many other countries in the world are honest brokers? China, North Korea, Iran? Give me a break!

3. With the wide use of the Internet media Americans can now see unfiltered news that paint the Mid-East situated in very different light than their own TV sets.

Yeah, you got this right. In Canada we now have the "thought police". Human Rights Comm. which censor our newspapers big time but they can't censor the internet so gov'ts. can't hide their scandals as much anymore.

4. Iraq war has made American wary of politicians. They are now looking for a change in foreign policy that does not drag US in proxy wars for others.

True, they cannot afford the money another proxy war like Iraq but I'm not sure if Democrats are going to bring about this change in short term. Be interesting to see what Obama slam dama does. Hopefully H. Clinton will be tougher than Rice also? Otherwise, Dems will be gone in 4 years.

5. US plans to invest heavily in renewable energy and more secure Canadian oil sands for its future needs. This move will free the US of its heavy reliance on Arab oil and will weaken the need for a strong Israel-US alliance.

Well, we'll just see how much Canada wants to give the US of our oil sands. lol Actually, China has invested heavily in them also. The problem is development of these oil sands to meet US needs is quite a few years off (something to do with the extraction process?) Anyway, the Gulf Arab States will still want US military protection. Not kidding the Sunis will not under any circumstances want Shite Iran or Iraq to control them.

6. The power shift from the West to the East with the rise of China and India will leave the US relatively weaker. This will play against Israeli interest.

I believe India will be in alliance with the West because of threat of Pakistan and Afghanistan. China growth is phenomenol and it needs world oil supplies badly so will have to be careful. Also, China does not want conflict with Japan or North Korea.

7. Iran is gaining strength and could become nuclear rival neutralizing Israel’s current advantage. Continuing Palestine-Israel hostilities could one day ignite the entire Middle East and beyond.

Iran will likely have nuclear capability by the end of 2011 and that has the US very worried. Isreal took out Syria's secret nuclear reactor in Sept./2007. This will help delay a little bit. North Korea and China engineers are working on extending the range of the Scud missiles now. The Russians play both sides. Syria and Iran refuse to give up their alliance. Conflict is coming and the U.S. needs Isreal to help in this because they have better intelligence and better experience in covert ops. in the area.

8. Israel’s current incursion into Gaza in the long run will strengthen Hamas’ popularity among Arab populace

I don't know, I hope not because Hamas, Hizbollah, Taliban do not represent majority of Muslims. I don't think militant Islam serves anybody. Egypt and Jordan depend on a lot of U.S. aid also.

9. US will likely broker a deal with the Talibans in Afghanistan. This will be seen as victory by forces against Israel.

They might have to. This is a difficult country. So many tribes and nobody has ever won there yet, not the Russians, not U.S. Canada is pulling out in 2011 so don't know if present gov't will be strong enough to stay in power there.

10. Although less likely Arab states will get their act together to pose a common front to Israel.

Too, many and they all have their own interests at heart. In fact right now, they are remaining strangely silent for the most part in the Gaza conflict because they don't want the Iranian inflence to expand in ME. The rich Gulf States restrict their immigration to the max. to protect their own native populations.

11. Israel’s continued defiance of UN will weaken the international body if it hasn’t done already. This would ultimately harm Israel.

Nobody respects the UN and it is just a big beaucratic, inefficient entity. The US pays the most in funding it (22%) so has the most influence. Japan is second. The UN needs reorganization or disolving or something. It has repeatedly targeted Isreal unfairly. Esp. that UNHRC full of members states who lack any human rights policy in their own countries. e.g. Saudi, China, African regimes – at least 15 to 20 of them don't have any HR and are not democracies. It's a joke.

12. Israel has very few friends to lean on and even less in the Middle East region. It risks losing the remaining support due to its uncompromising attitude.

Isreal has always been more aligned with US, West. Europe anyway. The objective of ME region has been primarily to destroy Isreal since it became a state but it has survived against formidable odds. I don't know much about Isreali politics over there. It's far away from N. America.

13. Many corrupt Mid-East Sheikhdoms will give way to more emancipated rulers that may not sit idle while Palestinians languish in Israel’s Warsaw-like ghettos.

I tell you Dubai is pretty emancipated already. Qatar, UAE, Oman, Kuwait want to align themselves with the US long term because they need this alliance. Even the Saudi Royals don't want to cut ties with US. Too much money invested with each other. That means they have to tolerate Isreal or at best ignore that Isreal comes with the US alliance.
They won't admit it but they like our western lifestyle too much also. Ha, ha.
I don't think Isreal really wants to keep Palestinians in ghettos, they just want to live in peace and have said so many times over.

Maybe, I am just too gullible or niave. Pls. excuse spelling mistakes.

TIm   January 12th, 2009 11:34 pm ET

Israel is in violation of several international agreements, including the agreements in Oslo about settlements in the west bank, and are alos in direct violation of the UN resolution 181 which states that the country of palestine be evenly partioned, but Israel invaded and took most of the original terriorty alloted to the palestinians in 1947, and then again in 1967 Isreal stole more land including the GOlan hieghts from Syria. Isreal must stop its terroristic actions, and Hamas must be taken out of power because they are a joke too. They need to put down the weapons and begin peaceful demonstartions i know they ahvent worked in the past, but they must try its the only way to stop the occupation and attoricties in gaza

CS   January 12th, 2009 11:37 pm ET

Israel lover. YOU ARE RETARDED. Do you know how silly, barbaric, and schoolyardish you sound, talking about "fight it out" and "winner takes all"? The next thing you'll be saying "two men enter, one man leaves" This is the type of immature, cowboy diplomacy that leads to genocide, with nothing changed at the end of it all. Just because Hamas does things the wrong way, does not mean all of Palestine should suffer.

Hany   January 12th, 2009 11:45 pm ET

Nick,

I am a practicing Muslim born and raised in America. I agree with many of the posts here regarding this situation being a humanitarian issue rather than a religious issue. If it were Europeans being murdered i'd be equally angry with the acts of genocide, much like those in darfur, sudan. I do however want to address your comments on the practices of Muslims and Jihad. Jihad itself in the Islamic faith means sacrifice. Now this can be any sacrifice. It could be temptation of food during fasting or even abstaining from sexual/adulterous temptation.

As a practicing Muslim i just really want to point out that the argument of the 72 virgins as a reward in heaven is considered by majority of Muslim Scholars as a weakly credilble source in historical teachings and documents. So the vast majority of practicing Muslims do no actually believe that this will be the reward for giving one's life (not counting the extremists perspectives) and it is not even mentioned in the Qur'an.

Something that is mentioned in the Qur'an is that: to murder a person, would be as if you killed all of humanity. Islam is a peaceful religion, just like Christianity, and Judaism are in essence peaceful religions. However, its the actions of a few (like the israeli gov.) and people that hijacked the planes in 9/11, and individuals like Timothy McVeigh (oklahoma city bombings) who tarnish our views of these religions.

In sum... Please don't go around quoting things regarding Religion if you have not devoted your life to studying it, and do not have credible sources, just speculation and regurgitation of what you hear in the media.

Sorry for the long message.

waleed   January 12th, 2009 11:51 pm ET

how funny that CNN and fox and all the other u.s media saying that Israel is not allowing western media into Gaza, who are you kidding ' there's no way that your Jewish friends would allow you to show these horrific pictures of children bodies burned by the white phosphoric agent that Israel is using on them ' this inhuman act against Innocent civilians and calling sefl-defense. in all my life I have never seen anything like this, and we have the odecity to call ourselves humans..my heaven not even anialms do this to one another and on a much pathtic note ' some claim that ' God is on their side' logic can only beg the question ' what kind of a God is that?

CS   January 12th, 2009 11:59 pm ET

Degi. I agree 100%, and I am American. I agree that we should be listening to NPR, or researching what the news says. My father told me from childhood age, not to beleive most of what the newspaper/TV says. I see why. Some people need direction. They need to be told what to do, how to live, what to eat, what to spend money on, how to think even. In fact, most people depend on the powers that be to give them this direction, without even noticing that they are dependent on the system. If you them to wake up, and to question authority, not to research, they will probably call you a trouble maker, or conspiracy theorist. I say you're free. The syststem has no hold on your mind. That is good.
To add to what you said, I think Americans need to be a little less cold, toward other nations regarding war. No wars have been faught here since our civil war over 100 yrs ago, which is why I believe that people say dumb things like, "we should just nuke all those people"
"let them kill each other" "just keep that stuff over there" It enrages me every time I hear it, because, it is almost like they think their kids are the only ones who feel pain, or matter at all. Very terrible. But not surprising that most here would support a nation who opresses another. That's what the country was founded on. In fact, the country is only different now in that the opression of our citizens is on a financial level, and not as much as race as it once was. Although race IS still a problem. There are many great things about my country too though. Which is why I believe people are so blind to the suffering of others.

Robert G   January 13th, 2009 12:30 am ET

And what about the victims in southern Israel who live their lives in fear of Hamas rockets. Where is the sympathy for them? i am deeply saddened by the condition of life imposed upon the innocent citizens of gaza but their government has put them in this situation.

Isreal Lover   January 13th, 2009 1:41 am ET

To CS – My cowboy mentality is no more retarded than some of the other posts on here. Look at the 8 or 10 year war between Iraq and Iran. I've seen the graveyards of all the martyrs – in Ishfahan, Tehran etc over there. Tens of Thousands of graves of young boys sacrificed at the front lines many under 10 years old. Remember Chemical Ali of Iraq gasing the villages of the Kurds in N. Iraq? Where the f–k was the UN then? or the International community? North Korea – 2 million people starved/executed since mid-1990's. How many deaths in Iraq since 2003 Gulf War – 500,000? I haven't looked it up. Rawanda, Sudan/Darfur ongoing, Zimbabwe ongoing, etc. Afghanistan also.

Anyway, I'm tired so signing off here. Interesting blogg everyone.

Sophia   January 13th, 2009 2:11 am ET

There were two rally's in manhattan yesterday. One of them pro-israel, the other Pro-Palestinian (and i intentionally say palestinian, not palestine, bc there is no palestine).

One of them became violent – let's guess which one that was? Is it too obvious?

Hamas knows it cannot fight the Israeli army alone. It is simply instigating Israel into combat, bc like western countries, Israel values the lives of its citizens and was not going continue to allow rockets to be fired at it citizens without recourse. And despite the # of Palestinians who have been killed, Hamas keeps fighting a losing battle. Bc they are massive cowards / murderers who have nothing but the death or their own children and women to propagate their cause -The elimination of a jewish state.

Fellow westerners, i would love to admire your liberal minded, empower the underdog views – but you are truly naive and probably to lazy to go beyond your superficial reactions to the news and actually do some research. Hamas has fired over 10,000 rockets into southern Israel since 2000. If they were so concerned with the welfare of their children and their woman – who might i remind you are "honorably" killed for even kissing a guy who is not her husband, they perhaps they could have invested that money in bomb shelters or greenhouses, or factories, or a decent secular education for their children. But they didn't, and they won't ever. Bc to Hamas and all fundamentalist islamists, death is more powerful message, whether inflicted on others or on their own children. We jews prefer to win nobel prizes, and invent things like communication devices, or become surgeons and cardiologists.

And btw, what about Arab brotherhood. Where are your Arab brothers, Hamas? Israel is surrounded by them, why aren't they stepping in to help your dying mothers and children? why not? BC even they, who too disdain israel, even THEY recognize you brought this upon yourself. EVEN the WESTBANK is quiet! So this isn't even he "Palestinian" plight, and might i add that over20% of the israeli population, citizenship, population IS palestinian, this is strictly the plight of the Gazans, who elected Hamas as their government.

Tell me you anti-semites (bc anti israeli sentiment is really just anti-semitism), do you the one thing that unites the Arab world? Their hate for israel. If israel did not exist, they would all jsut kill eachother the way are doing in Iraq.

Maybe Israel will be destroyed one day, but we will never again go like sheep to the slaughter. If you threaten our existence, god damn it we will fight.

Lastly, before we regard the eye witness accounts of the IRC, lets remember that the IRC went into Therezen in 1944 and reported back that the conditions were just fine.

this IS a war of self defense. And do not kid yourselves, we could easily push you into the sea. We choose not to.

Linda   January 13th, 2009 2:18 am ET

Isreal Lover,
Great insight. I would also like those questions answered!

Linda   January 13th, 2009 2:29 am ET

Hi Sophia,
Were you in NYC during the protests yesterday?

Sophia   January 13th, 2009 2:38 am ET

on the right side :)

blood is red   January 13th, 2009 2:41 am ET

By Stephen R. Kaufman, M.D.
http://www.christianveg.com

Part 20: Violence in the Hebrew Scriptures

Violence is a central theme of the Hebrew Scriptures, with over 1000 passages discussing violence or threats of violence. (See Raymond Schwager, Must There Be Scapegoats?) Rarely, God is violently destructive for no apparent reason. Uncommonly, God angrily takes out revenge for evildoing. Much more frequently, God hands over evildoers to violent humans, who do the punishing for God. An example of God turning over evildoers to violent humans is Ezekiel 21:31, which describes God’s wrath against the Ammonites: “And I will pour out my indignation upon you; I will blow upon you with the fire of my wrath; and I will deliver you into the hands of brutal men, skillful to destroy.” One might see this as divine retribution, but one may also read this passage as illustrating the effects of mimetic violence.

The Hebrews, hating their enemies, believed that their own violence was ordained by God–sacred acts of retribution and justice. It is certainly possible that God is indeed bent on violence and revenge. I think that one may also, reasonably, adopt a Girardian approach and conclude that the ancient Hebrew’s own written account of conflicts attributes their own vengeful violence to the will of God.

It is remarkable that, in about 70 passages of the Hebrew Scriptures, people are punished by the effects of their own sinfulness. For example, the writer of Proverbs observes, “He who digs a pit will fall into it; and a stone will come back upon him who starts it rolling.” (26-27) Similarly, the Psalmist writes, “He makes a pit, digging it out, and falls into the hole which he has made. His mischief returns upon his own head, and on his own pate his violence descends.” (7:15-16) From a Girardian perspective, this is a profound insight. These passages assert that our violence is not the solution to injustice but rather the cause of discord and misery that ultimately hurts everyone.

How are the Hebrew Scriptures different from the justifications for violence seen among other people? The answer is that the picture is ambiguous. The ancient Hebrews were starting to recognize the process of victimization. Perhaps their experience as slaves in Egypt made them more sensitive to the predicament of the scapegoated victim. Whatever the cause, the Psalmist’s lamentations articulate well the victim’s perspective. About 100 of the 150 psalms relate the writer’s anguish at being a victim. He is, for example, “despised” and “hated without cause” and his tormenters are “numerous” and “deceitful.” However, like other ancient people, he often dreams of revenge (for example Psalm 137: “O daughter of Babylon, you devastator! Happy shall be he who requites you with what you have done to us! Happy shall be he who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!”). The ancient Hebrews often sought mimetic, reciprocal violence, even if the victims of revenge were innocent children, but at the same time they were starting to recognize the scapegoating mechanism, the process of victimization, and the hazards of mimetic violence.
U.S. foreign policy shapes events in every corner of the globe. Nowhere is this truer than in the Middle East, a region of recurring instability and enormous strategic importance.
The U.S. national interest should be the primary object of American foreign policy. For the past several decades, however, and especially since the Six Day War in 1967, the centerpiece of U.S. Middle East policy has been its relationship with Israel. The combination of unwavering U.S. support for Israel and the related effort to spread democracy throughout the region has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardized U.S. security.
This situation has no equal in American political history. Why has the United States been willing to set aside its own security in order to advance the interests of another state? One might assume that the bond between the two countries is based on shared strategic interests or compelling moral imperatives. As we show below, however, neither of those explanations can account for the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the United States provides to Israel.

Instead, the overall thrust of U.S. policy in the region is due almost entirely to U.S. domestic politics, and especially to the activities of the “Israel Lobby.” Other special interest groups have managed to skew U.S. foreign policy in directions they favored, but no lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical.

Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War II. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars.2 Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America’s foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year.

Moreover, the United States has provided Israel with nearly $3 billion to develop weapons systems like the Lavi aircraft that the Pentagon did not want or need, while giving Israel access to top-drawer U.S. weaponry like Blackhawk helicopters and F-16 jets. Finally, the United States gives Israel access to intelligence that it denies its NATO allies and has turned a blind eye towards Israel’s acquisition of nuclear weapons.6

In addition, Washington provides Israel with consistent diplomatic support. Since 1982, the United States has vetoed 32 United Nations Security Council resolutions that were critical of Israel, a number greater than the combined total of vetoes cast by all the other Security Council members.7 It also blocks Arab states’ efforts to put Israel’s nuclear arsenal on the International Atomic Energy Agency’s agenda.
Moreover, the United States has provided Israel with nearly $3 billion to develop weapons systems like the Lavi aircraft that the Pentagon did not want or need, while giving Israel access to top-drawer U.S. weaponry like Blackhawk helicopters and F-16 jets. Finally, the United States gives Israel access to intelligence that it denies its NATO allies and has turned a blind eye towards Israel’s acquisition of nuclear weapons.6

In addition, Washington provides Israel with consistent diplomatic support. Since 1982, the United States has vetoed 32 United Nations Security Council resolutions that were critical of Israel, a number greater than the combined total of vetoes cast by all the other Security Council members.7 It also blocks Arab states’ efforts to put Israel’s nuclear arsenal on the International Atomic Energy Agency’s agenda.

Today, Israel is the strongest military power in the Middle East. Its conventional forces are far superior to its neighbors and it is the only state in the region with nuclear weapons. Egypt and Jordan signed peace treaties with Israel and Saudi Arabia has offered to do so as well. Syria has lost its Soviet patron, Iraq has been decimated by three disastrous wars, and Iran is hundreds of miles away. The Palestinians barely have effective police, let alone a military that could threaten Israel. According to a 2005 assessment by Tel Aviv University’s prestigious Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies, “the strategic balance decidedly favors Israel, which has continued to widen the qualitative gap between its own military capability and deterrence powers and those of its neighbors
American backing is often justified by the claim that Israel is a fellow-democracy surrounded by hostile dictatorships. This rationale sounds convincing, but it cannot account for the current level of U.S. support. After all, there are many democracies around the world, but none receives the lavish support that Israel does. The United States has overthrown democratic governments in the past and supported dictators when this was thought to advance U.S. interests, and it has good relations with a number of dictatorships today. Thus, being democratic neither justifies nor explains America’s support for Israel.

Israel’s democratic status is also undermined by its refusal to grant the Palestinians a viable state of their own. Israel controls the lives of about 3.8 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, while colonizing lands on which the Palestinians have long dwelt. Israel is formally democratic, but the millions of Palestinians that it controls are denied full political rights and the “shared democracy” rationale is correspondingly weakened.

Linda   January 13th, 2009 2:42 am ET

I was wondering what really happened by someone who was there.

Nona was at one in Atlanta, in front of CNN headquarters. About 4-1 in favor of Israel. But of course they did not run that on TV.

I heard rumors, but don't know what really happened in NYC. How was it?
Right side :)

blood is red   January 13th, 2009 2:45 am ET

The Five Dancing Israelis
Arrested On 9-11

As the world watched in disbelief and asked the question…

…Mossad operatives were seen dancing with joy.

A Mossad surveillance team made quite a public spectacle of themselves on 9-11.
The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards. (1)

Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming “middle-eastern” men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery. (2)
“They were like happy, you know … They didn’t look shocked to me” said a witness. (3)
[T]hey were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. (4)

Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact (5). Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot. (6)

“It looked like they’re hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park.” (7)

On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.

The Attack

After surveilling USS Liberty for more than nine hours with almost hourly aircraft overflights and radar tracking, the air and naval forces of Israel attacked our ship in international waters without warning. USS Liberty was identified as a US naval ship by Israeli reconnaissance aircraft nine hours before the attack and continuously tracked by Israeli radar and aircraft thereafter. Sailing in international waters at less than five knots, with no offensive armament, our ship was not a military threat to anyone.

The Israeli forces attacked without warning and without attempting to contact us. Thirty four Americans were killed in the attack and another 174 were wounded. The ship, a $40-million dollar state-of-the-art signals intelligence platform, was later declared unsalvageable and sold for scrap.

The Cover Up

Despite a near-universal consensus that the Israeli attack was made with full knowledge that USS Liberty was a US Navy ship, the Johnson administration began an immediate cover-up of this fact. Though administration officers continued individually to characterize the attack as deliberate, the Johnson administration never sought the prosecution of the guilty parties or otherwise attempted to seek justice for the victims. They concealed and altered evidence in their effort to downplay the attack. Though they never formally accepted the Israeli explanation that it was an accident, they never pressed for a full investigation either. They simply allowed those responsible literally to get away with murder.

By Rebecca Dana and Peter Carlson
Washington Post Staff Writers

“THE JEWS, I find are very, very selfish,” President Harry S. Truman wrote in a 1947 diary that was recently discovered on the shelves of the Truman Library in Independence, Mo., and released by the National Archives yesterday.

Written sporadically during a turbulent year of Truman’s presidency, the diary contains about 5,500 words on topics ranging from the death of his mother to comic banter with a British aristocrat. But the most surprising comments were Truman’s remarks on Jews, written on July 21, 1947, after the president had a conversation with Henry Morganthau [sic. Morgenthau], his Jewish treasury secretary. Morganthau called to talk about a Jewish ship in Palestine — possibly the Exodus, the legendary ship carrying 4,500 Jewish refugees who were refused entry into Palestine by the British, then rulers of that land.

“He’d no business, whatever to call me,” Truman wrote. “The Jews have no sense of proportion nor do they have any judgement (sic) on world affairs. Henry brought a thousand Jews to New York on a supposedly temporary basis and they stayed.”
Truman then went into a rant about Jews:

“The Jews, I find, are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog. Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I’ve found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes.”
Yesterday, those comments startled scholars because Truman is known as a president who acted to help Jews in postwar Europe and who supported recognition of Israel in 1948, when his State Department opposed it.

Sophia   January 13th, 2009 2:47 am ET

modern islam practices bloodshed today. but this is obvious. we've evolved. you guys are stuck in 1492.

Sophia   January 13th, 2009 2:52 am ET

blood is red – of course you would choose that name.

Bill   January 13th, 2009 3:34 am ET

Sophia -

Good for you! Too few westerners are willing to do their homework and find out what they are protesting for/against. They are too easily manipulated by pictures of war, which the Gazans started (repeatedly). They have been fooled by the Islamic terrorist propaganda machine where they create as many civilian casualties as possible and them blame it on those who are defending themselves against Islamic terrorist aggression. Hamas absolutely wants Palestinian and Israeli civilians to die. Israel absolutely wants them to live. It is quite apparent by actions on both sides.

The Gazans sold their souls to the devil (Islamic terrorism) and now the devil is calling in the chips. Maybe the surviving Palestinians will learn from this horrible mistake. Based on previous history, I doubt it.

Linda   January 13th, 2009 3:48 am ET

When you poke a bull in the ass, he just might gore you!

Debs   January 13th, 2009 4:04 am ET

Hello Linda and Sophia,

There is no "right side".

I was reading your comments regarding protests.

Palestinians need, and must have their homeland. No human should be without a homeland.

They need a change of politics as their current political parties dont show any care for them.

Israeli's also need their homeland. I may not agree with how Israel is going about her defence strategy as it seems to be more civilians being killed than Hamas. This killing of civilians being killed should not be happening.

Their needs to be a mutual respect between both people. Both peoples have every right to exist.

Open dialogue needs to be open and continued no matter what. Humanity to both sides needs to be shown,

Salam and Shalom to all.

Debs   January 13th, 2009 4:10 am ET

Bill,

Do you know the real truth?

Gazans are being held hostage by Hamas and Israel. These people are being caught in the middle.

Civilians are being killed by Israeli bombs whle being forced to be human sheilds.

Hamas is not an ambassador or representative of Islam.
Also, Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank are a mix of Christian and Muslim. Both communities co habit togrther and are bearing the brunt of everything.

Please, show a little humanity to both Palestine and Israel. If more humanity was shown instead of hate and intolerance there could be a peaceful resolution.

Xavier   January 13th, 2009 4:24 am ET

The Arab world doesn't want peace. They want victory. They never have shown any interest in peace.

Glenn   January 13th, 2009 5:21 am ET

"modern islam practices bloodshed today. but this is obvious. we’ve evolved. you guys are stuck in 1492."

Sophia, I am a Roman Catholic living in the Middle East almost half my life. I am surrounded by Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Aethist. I will be the first to say that what you proclaim is false.

It is the ideology of Islamist extremist that are tarnishing their religion, and that's it. I seem to remember a couple of decades ago when a majority of Americans believed that African-American were second class citizens; these were also extremists who lost.

I am against protests (may it be Pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine) which ends up being violent. Calling names "Death to Israelis" or "Islamic Terrorists" will not solve anything, and people must stop labeling and get right down to the honest truth... Civilians are dying, it is is all our responsibility to ensure that their lives are saved for the sake of humanity... Hamas must accept the blame, and so does Israel.

Truth Seaker   January 13th, 2009 5:33 am ET

It is trully sickening to see innocent people die in Gaza, it should end now. Hate is the fuel that is the cause of many problems in the world, but my question to the people that demand israel to stop immedietly is what makes the blood of people in the Gaza more red than that of those in Sderot, Eshkelon etc. Casualties from the constant missle attacks over the past years arent as high as those in the current offensive op, but who are you people living in comfortable homes to tell Israel not to defend their own. I put you to task examnie history: those who say that Israel shouldn't be a state, why? After being kicked out of Israel and sent to Euroupe and Arab countries Jews suffered constantly. The Crusades, expulsions, pogroms, massacres and then came the Holocaust. (To those that deny it, your a joke the historical record of it is so evident its pathetic and sick to deny it. And shame on England and all others that took it out of their ciriculum, you are trully a sad people) The Jewish people had every right to return home, and if i may, how Israel has become much more advanced and sucessful than they've ever been. And to he who says the Arabs treated Jews well, you clearly were only brainwashed and not taught factual history. It is true that duing periods of history Jews were tolerated but eventually they had to abandon all their valuable and escape. This was only after massacres and riots. Now families in Israel have been bombarded by thousands of rockets prior to their offensive. I ask you to imagine what it is like to be in pre-school and have to cope psychologically with constant missile attacks, and thats aside from those who are killed or see others killed. Should Israel tolerate their people living in bomb shelters, NO. And once the necessary offensive began can Israel be put at fault Hamas using human shields? Hamas has done more harm then good for the unfortunate people that elected them. Where is the pressure from the world for the human shields to end? Why do people think that Israel must sit still while Hamas and the PLO ask for land and promise peace, then shortly after use the land they were given to attack Israelis, using that land. if charted out it wiuld be clear that giving land and making treaties has done no good for Israel. Hamas must promise to end the missile attacks only then can Israel stop their op.

If Hamas tries to use another cease fire to re-arm then next time will the world recognize their ignorance?
To all those whether pro-Israel or pro-Hamas, stop being immature and bickering.
Whoever wants a cease-fire offer an alternative that will ensure that Israelis won't regret ending their op, and have to watch as her people are attacked yet again?

Steve Canada   January 13th, 2009 6:25 am ET

CNN journalist Karl Penhaul has biased views on the conflict

He is clearly pro-Palestinian and his reports clearly show it

He should be replaced since he's brewing with antisemitism

Kick out Karl Penhaul

Truth Seaker   January 13th, 2009 6:29 am ET

Blood is red. You dont understand Judaism, or its scriptures, or at least the author of that article doesnt. After reding in a translated language , with out understanding the dependance of the bible on oral law he, writes blondly. though their is some truth in their the article is an illustration of ignorance. What he should research is what percent of: Palestinians, Muslims in the Middle East, then Muslims worldwide, beleive that the Quoran does not preach violence against the Jews. I wish the numbers were higher but sadly their is constant speeches by Islamic leaders explaining why the Jews must die.
And in regards to what is actually done by Israelis today: when was the last time their was a prisoner exchange where Israel did not give at least ten times the amount of criminals for a prisoner of theirs? 1000;1
that seems to prove how much Israel values thelife of their own citizens something Hamas opposes by using human shields.

and the junk about Israel forcing Hamas to fire missiles, come on, when they use force you say they had to but when Israel does, its a war crime and like i said just because they arent capable of firing effectively they intend to kill as many people as possible when firing. and to tell Israael to let themselves be fired at just because "not that many people are dieing" is a protrayol of your lack of sensitivity for Israeli citizens.

Sophia   January 13th, 2009 1:24 pm ET

Truth seaker – You make excellent, well written arguments.

Bossman   January 13th, 2009 3:02 pm ET

Thats is very good of Isræl... Gaza have a big land now. all they need to do is to clear the rubbles and turn the vas land site to a golf park, amusement park, and build more hotels there.. they can also create new jobs to reduce the recent economic headache.... Bush and family can sleep in these hotels for holidays

sadman   January 13th, 2009 3:09 pm ET

Sophia, Linda, Truth seaker,
I must say your arguments are for more reasonable and logical to me than other people who post their opinions here.
You may find the following site interesting, it really gives a great deal of historical information, making some of the other comments here irrelevant.
Here it is:

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
What Really Happened In The Middle East – Terrorism Awareness Project

Tony Larue   January 13th, 2009 4:13 pm ET

I felt compelled to submit this. Since I could not copy and paste this article, I had to type it word for word from the US TODAY page hope they are no spelling errors and if so they are mine and not the original writer’s spelling errors. Thank You

Not all of us get the USA TODAY so I hope I am doing the right thing here by posting this letter for all my fellow bloggers to see.

Taken from USA TODAY January 12, 2009 edition (Letters)

“Israel must change tactics”

Israel’s so-called justification for it’s latest bombing and invasion of the Gaza Strip is that israel has a right to defend itself against rockets attacks from across the border.

But there is no comparison between the wild scatter shots from Gaza and Israel’s devasating bombing campaign on this densely populated area.

True, the Hamas rocketeers are madmen. Out of blind rage, they pelt the Israeli Goliath with stones, knowning that Goliath will in turn clobber them and everyone around them with boulders.

Nevertheless, the ultimate resposibility for this decades-old blood feud lies with Israel, and only Israel has the power to turn it around.

The Hamas madmen have been driven mad by generations of living with Goliath’s boot on their neck. Say what you like about Israel’s right to exist. The fact remains that if drive people out of their ancestral land, pen them up in refugee camps, impoverish them and continue to build “settlements” on land that mainly recognize as belongng to the Palestinians, they will hate you and fight back.,

Richard Hoff
Writer

joey   January 13th, 2009 4:56 pm ET

Are we forgetting the 3000s and more of peopple killed in New York, and how the peopple in Gaza where dancing and celebrating during the falling of the Twin Towers?
I feel sorry for them, but they had a choice, and they elected a Terror org. to ruled them.

fair play   January 13th, 2009 5:05 pm ET

keep in mind the only two religions that respect christ is islam and christianity... we believe he is the messiah, his mother was a blessed and God fearing woman,and he was hated by the jews who blasphemed against him and his mother, so we also believe he will return. where does that leave israel and jews?you all are th anti christ followers pave ur way for him.I see untiy coming between christians and muslims...note the people in palestine are the direct descendants of jesus christ..do ur research.dis is what u do to them?and many christians live there in peace with the muslims, they have churches there etc....wait He shall come and O Israel you shall pay! we will not be fooled with the rocket game,u broke the treaty, this was even confirmed on cnn.so time will tell

purple   January 13th, 2009 5:16 pm ET

israel has no friend & no allies. it has only enemies & slaves. the USA & , canada & europe are its slaves and the rest of the world are its enemies. better be a free enemy than a slave ally.

M Ariely   January 13th, 2009 7:05 pm ET

I don’t like at all my following comment
It counts death, rapes,crimes against humanity.
However because the triple moral standards I have to post it.
Acceptable Moral standard for Muslims:
1:Since 1948 more than 16500000 Muslim people killed by Muslims
Examples: (a long macabre list is available)
Bangladesh: 3000000+
Iraq: 2500000+
Iran: 1000000+
Sudan: 3500000+
Algeria: 1200000+
Yemen 250000+
Lebanon: 170000+
More than 20000 women in Bangladesh and countless number is Sudan HAVE BEEN RAPED including phase mutilation
Gas weapons used by Iraq and Egypt
Entire families and villages killed by sword in Algeria
DID THE WORLD MANISFESTED, BLAMED, ACT TO STOP THIS ONGOING MASS ANTIHUMANITARIEN ACTS?
2; NATO in Balkans,Afganistan,Iraq airplanes bobbed from high altitude killing many civilians.
They didn't put their ground forces in danger in order to spare casualties
Russia in Chechnya and Caucuses destroy entire cities and villages including the civilians
WHAT THE WORLD ACTUALY DID TO CHANGE NATO AND RUSSIA WAR MORALS?
3:Compare the total Arab casualties in wars starting 1948 and terror against the defending Israel?
(Including Arabs armies solders ,terrorists and civilians) and Muslims killed by Muslims
And in all the wars Israel defend itself against the Arab aggression
In many cases Israel is putting in danger their solders including reserve solders fathers of children and not using the power that according to war lows is entitled to use
THE ABOVE MACABRE SHORT COMMENT CLEARLY EMPEHSISES THE TRIPLE STANDART
1 FOR MUSLEMS

Brian   January 13th, 2009 8:48 pm ET

you are mising a very important fact.
if hamas would agree that Israel has a right to be a country and if the arabs would put the weapons down there would be no fighting.
A very easy experiment, have hamas put down the weaponsand then have the rich arab countryries use some of the trillians of petro dollars to give the people of gaza a better education, bettr jobs, and housing and see what happens.

Israel does not want gaza, israel wants a boarder partner that would recongnize that Israel has a right to be there. Would you want to live next to a country that vows to wipe you off the map?
Get real all there posts are written with hate.
peace is very easy. Israel has the right to live in the less then 1% of all the land in the mideast. The arabs states have the rights to all the other 99%. The arabs have almost 100% of all the petro dollars. Simple why cant the arabs agree to this?
Give peace a chance, agree to put down the weapons , end the hate, we owe it to our children.
As i said before If the Arabs would put down there weapons there would be peace if Israel would put down the weapons there would be no Israel.

Eric Gallion   January 13th, 2009 9:50 pm ET

There is only one remaining solution for two peoples who each claim the same land: Share it.

The two-state solution is dead, and has been for some time. Israel will never give up the settlements (think small cities) that would be necessary to have a viable Palestinian state. Israel will never give up total control of the region. What the people in the region need is peace – they don't need their own, exclusive state.

Israel/Palestine needs to become one, secular democratic state, where no religious or ethnic group is given preferential treatment over another, where all groups share equally in the benefits of the state, and with guarantees such that no group will be able to manipulate the democratic process so that they can suppress and discriminate against the minority.

This would be difficult, but probably not more than the present attempts at a two state solution have been shown to be. South Africa was able to transition from a situation at least as bad.

Two great books on the subject: "The One State Solution", by Virginia Tilley, and "One Country", by Ali Abunimah. Check them out.

Thought I'd throw this out there again – sorry if you've seen it before. Think its better than some of the tripe out there, but who am I.

Chris Pavano   January 13th, 2009 10:48 pm ET

I don't knowif a cease fire will work now because the conflict has spreed to bosnia were at least 3,000 jews have been arested and over there that means most likly they are died.Muslims have vowed to kill one jew for every palestinian kill by Isreal.If something is not done
the war between croatia and serbia will restart and the muslims the serbs and the croats all blame america for what happened.We have troops on the ground over there.Time to stop the ethnic cleansing
that serbia did and their allies Isreal

Pat   January 13th, 2009 11:38 pm ET

Sadman, Sophia, Linda, Truth seaker,
Your arguments leave nothing unsaid really. Thank you for eloquently writing what I think and could never have done myself.
The terrorism video posted by sadman is very interesting!
It's late here in Europe so I'm off! Goodnight, Gute Nacht, Bonne nuit and Laila tov

Hunk   January 14th, 2009 12:00 am ET

Occupation 101, most of commentators are Jews and westerners talking of facts.

No disturbing scene , a real eye opener ...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589&ei=BdMbScX5OafcqAOF1NHGBw&q=occupation+101

Anne K   January 14th, 2009 1:07 am ET

A LETTER FROM MY COUSIN MICHELLE WHO LIVES IN ISRAEL
Share
Today at 3:23pm
Unlike me, Michelle adds no colorful theatrics to her words. Here is a first hand account of what is "really" going on there.

> First of all I want to thank you all for your thoughts and support.
> I sit each day at the computer determined to write, but the words
> never come. Yesterday when they were reporting on CNN that Israel had
> hit an UNRWA school killing 40 innocent women and children, I just sat
> there in shock. And then we saw the footage on Israel television
> showing the snipers and rockets shooting from the building...why
> wasn't that shown on CNN and why was it also not mentioned that the
> majority of people in the school were Hamas and what were they doing
> with arms in an UNRWA building?
> When they talk of humanitarian rights, why is it not mentioned that
> the Hamas keep their women and children in the buildings that they
> hide in and where they hide their ammunitions? The food and oil is
> being held by Hamas. There is a border with Egypt, but you don't see
> them helping the innocent residents of Gaza.
> They talk of the occupation....We left Gaza years ago. The fact that
> they did nothing to develop their country, with all the financial help
> world wide, but continued to depend on Israel for food, electricity
> and work is never questioned by the world. Only when we stopped
> giving services, because our homes were being shot at and tunnels were
> being dug to kidnap Israelis and bring in arms were we criticized. No
> other country in the world would let their country be bombed
> constantly for so many years and not retaliate. Few countries would
> notify the residents by phone, radio and pamphlets to clear the area
> because the air force was going to bomb the area....in order to save
> lives
> It infuriates me that our humanitarism is questioned and theirs is
> not. Hamas uses their civilians to hide behind, they keep the food,
> money, oil for themselves. It's true that we have more power. The
> difference is that we only use it when we have no choice.
> We have Yaakov's family staying with us from a kibbutz on the Gaza
> border. In all the years I have never seen them so drained and
> nervous. They have lived for the past years with constant qassam's
> falling all around them. The sirens are a daily accurance.....where
> has the world been until now? When Hamas dug a tunnel into Israel to
> kidnap soldiers...where was the world? Our soldier, Shalit, has been
> in captivity for 3 years. The red cross hasn't even been able to
> contact him...where is the world?
> When Humanitarianism is questioned... it should be of Hamas, not us.
> Gaza is a country run by terrorists and must be handled so. If
> other's think differently, let THEM go and change things.
> Let's pray for peace
> Michelle

Serge O.   January 14th, 2009 1:11 am ET

Author: M. Ariely ????

I will certainly agree that you have done your homework. I am not certain how this debate got to this point. Are you suggesting a) that Israel has the moral right to kill just as many or b) that international community does not give a damn when killing happens elsewhere and therefore Israel should carryout its killing unabated and disregard UN as legitimate body.

May you didn't intend to but you missed 6,000,000 Jews that were killed by Nazis (I believe Nazis were Muslims. Right?) and another 54,000,000 (Christian on Christian/atheists) deaths during the 2nd WW. You would have blamed that on Hamas, but sorry, Hamas wasn’t born then.

Macabre? Most definitely. No country has moral high ground. History is of full of criminals. Americans did it to Indians, Spaniards killed the Incas. On and on it goes to this today. The question is, is it right? Will Gaza massacre bring peace to Israel? I don’t believe so. Israel knows that it can gain peace tomorrow if it wants. All it has to do is get back to pre-1967 boarders. Instead it wants Hamas to stop the rockets, languish in abject poverty, and accept occupation and so that Israel can live in peace. Did I say fat chance? If the situations were reversed, you my friend will lobb even bigger rockets at your oppressor and so would I. Peace will only come when Israel runs out lame and flimsy excuses such as Hamas’ call for Israel’s destruction or lobbing home-made rockets to fight oppression. Knowing what they know now, many Nations around the world (including the US in private discussions) see Israel as an unending bad dream and wish it would fade away. Sad but true.

Hamas rockets have killed 12 Israelis in the past 8 years. I don’t condone that nor do I condone 70 years of repression by Israel using every chapter in the book to scuttle successive peace efforts. Israel will NEVER opt for peace. Peace has too high a price to pay for all its illegal settlements and its thriving war industry fed by conflicts. And above all peace will prevent Israel from playing a “victim card” that helps it con billions from the US.

And yes, you conveniently forgot to include in your macabre list 4,000 Palestinian that Israel killed during the same 8-year period. In first 90 seconds Israel killed 36 Gazans – three times the amount the so-called deadly Hamas rockets killed in 8 year. Israel has surpassed the killing speed of Nazis – a record it must be proud of. Why play “World on War” video games when IDF can do the real thing? Seeing real warm blood oozing from the wound of the babies in Gaza must be a lot more thrilling.

I know several Jews who are among the nicest people I have known. Unfortunately they are all in hiding afraid of the paid AIPAC goons.

For the record, the writer is not an Arab, Muslim or Palestinian not that there is anything wrong with that. It surprises me that I haven’t seen very many posts in favor of Gaza killings by people other the paid agents of AIPAC.

The voice of moderation is dead in this troubled young Nation.

Sophia   January 14th, 2009 2:53 am ET

"Serge" – The absurd comparison of Israelis to Nazis is unoriginial, and only reflects poorly on you. More acurrately, you could compare Hamas to Hitler in his last days, when he was refused to let Germany surrender, and shot Berliners who tried to escape, even as berlin was engulfed by the Russian army. Russia and bombarded the city, – assuming of course that civilians were either in bomb shelters or had run away – and as a result killed thousands of civilians.

It is also particularly amusing to me that you would find Israel's lack of a moderate voice troubling. Israel affords Arab women more rights that they have in any Muslim country. Family memebers of mine at the technical university in haifa say that easily half the students in their classes are Palesinian. The beaches are full of half naked young men and women having fun in the sun ( except for when they have to duck cover from a suicide bomber of course ).

This country doesn't sound anything extreme to me, except for the extreme difference in achievements that is has under its belt in comparison to its neighbors.

"fair play" – You are deluded if you think their is brotherhood between christianity and Islam. I'm sure many a muslims vomited in their mouths when reading your posting, just as I did.

Sophia   January 14th, 2009 2:56 am ET

Anne K – thank you

Former IDF soldier.   January 14th, 2009 3:22 am ET

Serge, where have you come up with these crazy ideas!?!?!?! Iv'e seen first hand what the IDF does, I'VE SEEN MY MEN KILLED BECAUSE THEY WERE TRYING TO TREAT A WOUNDED PALESTINIAN CIVILIAN OR WERE TRYING TO CIVILIANS OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE, WHO ARE YOU TO MAKE SUCH A CLAIM THAT THE IDF MASSACRES PALESTINIANS AND IS IN THE MIDST OF EXTERMINATING THE PALISTINIANS???? WHAT DO YOU KNOW OF WAR!!! YOU'VE NEVER HELD YOUR FRIEND DIEING IN YOUR ARMS, YOUV'E NEVER SEEN MEN DIE BECAUSE THEY WENT OUT OF THERE WAY TO DO SOMETHING HUMANE. WHO ARE YOU TO SAY THAT WE ARE NAZI'S??? WE DO EVERYTHING IN OUR POWER TO SAVE CIVILIANS ON THE GROUND AND AIR. I THINK YOU ARE A RADICAL AND NEED TO REVISE YOUR THOUGHTS A LITTLE BIT.

Petra   January 14th, 2009 3:27 am ET

hunk – You are discrediting pro-palestinian viewpoints by participating in this blog. You are clearly just a anti-semite and probably sport an 888 tattoo.

It creeps me out to even think i share the same nationality as you. America is a wonderful country. You represent everything that has ever tarnished our history, or held us back socially.

Yuval   January 14th, 2009 3:45 am ET

At the end, despite what most people think, we are winning. That is the good (Israel) is a western state, educated pepole, trying to live in peace. The evil has no money, no food and they are still saying they love to die. May I ask anyone who support the arabs: Why we are doing so much better than them?

Democracy   January 14th, 2009 4:26 am ET

Do not play with the Bull if you do not want the horns.

Mori Goldlist, Toronto Canada   January 14th, 2009 6:21 am ET

I guess if Israel pulls back now and just decides to lob hundreds of rockets into the Gaza settlements on a nightly basis it would be okay???

Palestinians cheer on the streets when Israelis are bombed in restaurants and schools. I've yet to see a picture of Israelis being joyous over the deaths of Palestinians.

Let me fire rockets around your houses and schools daily for years on end and see if you react.

Yes, there has been a battle for the land for a long time now but look at the fighting... there is a choice to fight like an animal or fight like a human. Guess who fights like what.

America supports Israel, but always needs to keep in mind the reaction of the "moderate" Arab states. The Arab states support the Palestinians and think nothing about offending Israel or America.

If Israel fought like the Palestinians, there would be no Gaza or West Bank ... only a couple of very large holes in the ground that the sands would cover up in a generation.

Get serious, the Palestinians are playing the bleeding heart liberals in America and Eurabia with their pathetic twisting o victim/aggressor.

Mori G
Toronto Canada

david lulasa   January 14th, 2009 8:40 am ET

its true palestinians have lived for so long on the balcony of their house that they are meant to share with israel.and israelis have even been unable to have a view of the horizon coz they cant go to the balcony that is occupied by palestinians(gaza).but its a shame that gazan parents have to use a ladder to go to their balcony..this house should be shared by both this GODs tenants.

creamium boy
THE LAST DAD

tambua,hamisi,kenya.

blood is red   January 14th, 2009 11:06 am ET

Israel doesn’t want a democratic independent Palestinian state without Hamas. If this was possible then not any excuse valid for the Israelis to stop Palestinians asking for their rights and what lawfully belong to them .Also in absolute freedom they will be able to breed like crazy with non stop.
Hamas not want a democratic Palestinian state where people live in peace and prosperity. Because without fear you can’t control people and implement your extreme fanatic policies.
The Arab rulers they hold the power without real and free elections need Israel attacking Palestinians, to keep the mind of their people full of hate and then no one will talk about freedom and democracy challenging the ruling class and the religious fanatics controlling the crowd with promises in heaven.
The Americans want Hamas and other extremists alive and not really dead because if the Middle East issue can resolve then the Israelis not have anymore the excuse that they lives are under threat and they should stop play the sheriff in the region protecting USA interests.
Maybe I am wrong or maybe I am right?

Brian   January 14th, 2009 11:28 am ET

Wanna understand what's going on in Gaza?

Have a look at this. The fog will quickly be lifted.

http://www.elfarra.org/gallery/gaza.htm

Beardog   January 14th, 2009 2:44 pm ET

All of these people condemning Israel thay would they do if terrorist bombed their homes. If the people of Gaza want peace then why don't they tell Israel where the Hamas fighters are!

Gabriel Liberty   January 14th, 2009 2:45 pm ET

Where was all this concern when Hamas was killing around 10k Palestinians over the past 2 years? Why is it OK for Muslims to kill Muslims but right as soon as a Jew kills a Muslim everyone comes out of the closet with there hatred toward the Jews. Most of the Gazians want the Hamas to leave so they can continue the peace talks. They want the PA to come back and take control. Hamas has destroyed the Gaza infrastructure; the power grid, the water supply, the sewage system. When you invest all your finances for weapons and personal gain, this is what happens; 50% unemployment, no water, no food. There was an international blockade to inhibit the smuggling of weapons. This did not stop the transfer of food and other supplies. This is evident by the shear number of rockets Hamas has obtained. You would think if I can get my hands on a rocket I can get my hands on some medicine or food. Israel is liberating the Palestians from a regime that has slaughtered thousands of its own people. Less then 0.02% of the civilian population has been killed in one of the most dense areas in the world. This exemplifies Israel's restraint. War is difficult, but the Israeli soldiers demonstrate moral humanity. This can be seen in the way the Palestians interact with them. You will not see such interaction with the Hamas. They talk to them and they talk back. They are apologetic and caring. Do you see Hamas giving tea or food to there people, no. But you will see Israeli soldiers. I am tired of the hatred for Jews. I'm tired of giving the Palestinians a pass because they are said to be occupied. Israel left Gaza two years ago, Israel left them farms and green houses. What did they do with this? They burned it to the ground and are using it as a launching pad for the rockets. Imagine how much food they could have grown. Imagine how much money they could have made. Why do you think the world spends more money on Palestine then any other group? Arafat alone accumulated 10 billion dollars. If this was evenly distributed it would have given every Palestinian family 50 – 70 thousand dollars. But instead his wife is living in Paris with a 10 million dollar salary for doing nothing except victimizing the people she said she supported. If I was Palestinian I would look at who are my true friends and who are my true enemies. Don't let your hatred cloud the reality.

Mori Goldlist   January 14th, 2009 3:48 pm ET

Hey Blood is Red, Israel is playing sheriff of the middle east?????

How many Israeli soldiers are in Iraq? How many in Afghanistan? How many in Saudi Arabia? How many in India or Pakistan? IF Israel gets a chance to bomb the nuclear reactors in Iran, it will only be in the name of self preservation!

Think again!

RJ   January 14th, 2009 4:18 pm ET

Although I have deep regrets for the loss of life in Gaza, several issues seem to have been forgotten when discussing the current conflict: (1) The Hamas were elected by the Gazan population, and therefore represent them for better or for worse. If the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza are disillusioned with their current ruling faction, they should be able to replace them. The fact that the Hamas is still in place implies that the Gazans still support that terrorist movement and their activities. Thus, the people of Gaza should take responsibility for the Hamas rule in Gaza. (2) When a "proportional response" is expected of Israel, what do they have in mind? Israel wants to put a stop to the missiles and bombardment from Gaza. If the current military effort is still not preventing the shelling, or convincing the terrorists to put an end to the shelling, then apparently the current onslaught has not yet achieved the level of "proportional" response necessary to end the bombing of Israel territory. Obviously, this calls for an even more intense Israeli response in order to create the proper level of persuasion that would put an end to the terrorist shelling. (3) Evidently, the Hamas leadership, especially that in Damascus, considers the current loss of life and human suffering to be acceptable. Otherwise, they would prove their leadership qualities and call a truce, thus ending the suffering of the Gazan population. I wonder if the average Gazan agrees with that assessment that the current situation is acceptable. If not, I would expect a popular uprising or clamor from the local population to end the conflict.

Former IDF soldier.   January 14th, 2009 4:35 pm ET

People in this blog. I've seen this all first hand and all I can say is that as long as Israeli civilians under constant rocket fire and threat of terrorism there can be no peace. The Israeli government will not stand for there country constantly under attack by Hamas and other Militant groups the only way for there to be peace is if Hamas is removed from the picture.

Mori Goldlist   January 14th, 2009 5:00 pm ET

Good one RJ but the problem is that when the bleeding heart liberals of democratic countries are shown even one picture (real or faked) of a child seemingly injured as collateral damage, they go nuts and refuse to even consider the logic behind the suffering (Hamas uses women and children as shield) and scream genocide at the tops of their lungs.

Heard anything about the millions of women and children being massacred in Darfur?...

I haven't. ...

I guess they don't have as many photographers as Hamas has!

Mori
Toronto, Canada

josh hutc   January 14th, 2009 6:45 pm ET

I have feeling to say,"Please children,don`t play with phosphorus bombs,because this is very-very danger for you,so stop playing with these bombs,otherwise you will be felt same as gazan children".

jewish israeli   January 14th, 2009 8:01 pm ET

you should watch the clip "someone throws on you til (thats rocket in hebrew) ". funny, and shows a bit of the life in southern israel.

Isreal Lover   January 14th, 2009 9:07 pm ET

RJ, IDF Soldier,comments above – Situation is more complicated, although I absolutely agree with you about the Gazan victim mentality and that they do need to be responsible and choose peace. You need to realize that the people of Gaza have been living under the terrorist regime of Hamas for 21 years now. That's two generations. Before that it was Yasser Arafat and his PLO which started when (I remember back to the Munich Olypmics) ?

Also, what many people fail to realize is that the Muslim religion is not and has never been separate from state or gov't. as in the West or in Isreal (not since it was formed in 630 A.D. approx.) Take the militant Islam ideolgy of various groups that exist today in every Arab country which embraces death by jihad and mix that in and boom! Any moderate Gazan who opposed Hamas was or has been executed basically. The Hamas militants have dominated everything there by controlling all the money, etc. If you look at their houses that are being bombed, they are nice big palaces compared to the majority of housing. In addition, other Muslim contries in the ME, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Gulf States, etc. have never accepted Isreal as a state, so have always used Palestinians, Gaza/West Bank as pawns to fight against Isreal. Now Iran with their Hizbullah in Lebanon are doing it also. So Gazans, don't have the same mentality of democracy, freedom as we do..many are not well educated, have only known violence and been brainwashed by the ideology of Hamas, lived in poverty since they were born. I think Carl Marx said it best, meaning when there is nothing left for people, "Religion is the opiate of the masses." and nowhere is that more true when it comes to Islamic militants telling their own people to embrace death by becoming martyrs for the cause of Islam.

Take Iran as an example, the Persians, have a very old culture going back 1,000's of years, beautiful art, literature, many are very well educated but look what happend in 1979/80 when the hardliner Shia Iyatollahs kicked the Shah out. Change and freedom is going to be very slow to come there unless a revolution happens, because people have been controlled for so long by their leaders preaching distruction of the Western infidels and Isreal, in particular. They have been saying it for years, except Europe, U.S. haven't believed it. Osama bin Laden, wealthy, educated guy, started telling us in the early '80's and even after 9/11 the moderate, peace-loving Liberal lefties in the U.S. don't get it. Look at Britain, the Netherlands, France, Germany, etc. today and the current demonstrations, riots, previous bomb attacks in the last 8 years. We also have North Korea very much in the picture these days.

Until our Gov'ts smarten up about immigration and figure out how to deal all these things happening in their own countries, we are all targets, Jews all over the world are the first target, and then all the other non-believers of Islam will be executed, or maybe simultaneously. I don't have much faith in Obama because to me so far he hasn't come across as a tough, "don't mess with me" leader and his ideas of "engagement through dialogue" and Clintons "smart diplomacy" approach. What part of the English language don't they understand in statements from Iran, Hamas, Hizbullah, Al Qaeda? Like Archie Bunker said way back when, "How to deal with terrorists on an airplane? Give everybody a gun." Worked on Flight 93 during the N.Y. 9/11 attack which was sacrificed to save others except those passengers didn't even have guns to fight? So, yes, Hamas has got to go completely, not just be weakened, then maybe there will be a chance with the Pal Authority governing Gaza/West Bank or some other more moderate Pal leaders?

That's it, I'm done bitching for now but I still don't know if there are any good solutions in how to deal with complicated situations like Gaza and other areas in the ME.

Have a memory   January 14th, 2009 11:42 pm ET

We must remember the Gaza Strip as well as the West Bank were created under the auspice of "land for peace". The palisinians took the land but have never held up peace. Insead they voted in a terrorist organization to be their leaders, that endorses the practice of hiding amongst it's citizens while launching rockets at non-military targets. They elected a government that uses them as disposable sheilds in an attempt to gain sympathy from the world. It's interesting that article neglects to count the 10s of thousands of Isreali citizens, women & children killed by suicide bombers, rockets and other terrorist attacks. Less than 3,000 people died on 9/11 and we called it an act of war and responded accordingly. The notion that the endless attacks on non-military targets by the palistinians whose long term total far exceeds that of the 9/11 attacks is anything but an act of war is nonsense. Perhaps they underestimated the response, that is not the fault of Isreal. The fact that the palestinian nonmilitary death toll is as low as it is, is testamony that Isreal is in fact doing their best to focus on military targets, the fact that these targets are hidden amongst citizens is the only reason for those deaths and is the fault of hamas, who placed a higher value on hiding than they do on the people they are hiding amongst.

mendy   January 15th, 2009 3:25 am ET

Following Israeli logic the Warsaw Resistance Movement would have been called terrorists.

Debs   January 15th, 2009 3:39 am ET

Former IDF Soldier,

I have been reading your comment and I felt compeled to write back to you.

I am a Red Cross volunteer that has lived and worked in the ME for a while.

Palestine and Israel has always been an issue that I care so much about. Palestinians must have thier land and so does Israel. I am trying so hard to stay neutral as that is really the only way to keep a clear mind and perspective on this. Both sides need to find a way to live together.

This issue must be talked about openly and honestly without propaganda from either side.
The situation between Israel and Palestine is heartbreaking. There has got to be a resolution.

I wrote a few blogs back regarding people on here that were commenting and not knowing the full situation or what war is really like.

I have seen the after effects of war, like you. and you will agree with me that the emotional scars are worse than the physical ones as they never seem to fully heal.

If these people saw injured or traumatised soldiers or injured or traumatised children they would not be so eager to add fuel to fire. Instead they would do their utmost to try and initiate peace.

This conflict has cost so many lives. For the sake of Palestine and Israel lets hope people will come to their senses.

I hope all is well with you. Please always think of peace.

Salam and Shalom to all

history is written by a winner   January 15th, 2009 6:40 am ET

SOPHIA where did you learn history about Germany in world war II?
Nobody forced German people to defence Berlin. You have not been in Germany ever and you have no idea about German culture.
Maybe it is your way of twisting history for Israel benefits maybe you need a better education . I think that Israel can be compared to NAZI with its war crimes.

War Dog   January 15th, 2009 11:40 am ET

Why is the Israeli siege of Gaza different from the Mayor of New Delhi, India throwing a million people out in the streets just to improve the image of the city before some stupid sports games? The difference is the media loves to castigate Israel while not a word is said about the Mayor's sinful act of inhumanity. At least Israel is trying to protect itself; whereas, New Delhi is only trying to improve its image. Who is the criminal here, and where is the MEDIA!

Mori Goldlist   January 15th, 2009 3:24 pm ET

Why on earth should Israel be expected to open their borders to a country that wants to destroy it? How many Arab countries allow Jews to get into their country let alone allow Israeli products in for economic trade?

Do you really expect Israel to continue to supply Gaza with electrical power and food and medical supplies while Gaza keeps lobbing their rockets at Israeli schools and towns and retirement homes?

Why doesn't get all these things and more from Egypt. Gaza isn't even a viable "country"!! It is nothing more than a welfare state living off the UN and European humanitarian aid agencies who ignore the inhuman actions of Gazans doing nothing but trying over and over again to destroy a successful and thriving democracy.

Those tens of thousands of rockets that Gaza has been "donating" to Israel over the past 8 years cost a heck of a lot of dollars... dollars that could have been spent on bettering the lives of their own people instead of destroying their neighbor. Gaza does not have the right to independence when they are nothing but a belligerent welfare state.

Has anyone ever looked at the pictures of what Gaza children look like decked out in uniform, weapons and suicide belts? If the Gaza parents have chosen to donate their children to the war machine, they should not be saddened when the children are successfully sent to their rewards of 70 virgins. What are those children going to do with 70 virgins AND in today's world, just how many virgins are there to go around???

IF you don't want the children to die? Don't teach them war!
IF you want your children as martyrs? Don't use their broken bodies and corpses as propaganda!

angelito   January 15th, 2009 3:42 pm ET

Israel is God's people so no one can defeat them because God is always protecting His people to whom He sent from Egypt to Canaan(Israel)-the Promised Land of the Lord to His people- The Israelites.

If we can recall the battle during King David and other leaders during that time, the Lord instruct them to kill the enemy even Children and some of them will become a slaves.

As what happening now.in Gaza, it is very sad that mostly of the victims are civilians because this is what the terrorist are doing. If you are a good leader you must protect your people as what Israel did not to hide in the civilian crowd and make them as a human shields.

To all the TERRORIST your end is coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anita   January 15th, 2009 8:56 pm ET

Debs, there is so much hate in some people hearts they do not want to know the truth. Therefore asking a person like Bill does he know the truth is a waste of breath.

I wasn't going to post any longer but the profound comments you make are worth reading and weighing. What I posted early about Israel and Hamas wasn't meant to judge or demean Irael or Hama's action. Hell, Black Americans were killed, beaten, jailed, etc. but Martin Luther King never raised a hand and his followers did the same. We are not God, Alah, Mohammed, Jehovah or who ever you wish to call him but I do know that this war will not solve anything.

This is only the beginning. Not President-elect Obama, the U.N. or Israel will be able to stop this one for some time. Whether we are personally affected or not the Middle-east is the old country and what ever happens there affects us all in some way.

So those who think I am an idiot should look in the mirror and see who's looking back, it just may be me.

christine   January 15th, 2009 9:49 pm ET

I don't understand why the US continues to remain ever so silent on Israel's offensive attacks in Gaza. To get back at the Hamas in the expense of killing hundreds of civilians and causing humanitarian havoc is never acceptable. I just don't get why the US always sides with Israel. We need to stop giving them money and artillery. Israel seems to be the one that causes extreme havoc around them. .. first with Lebanon and now in Gaza. It's disgusting.

Isreal Lover   January 16th, 2009 1:01 am ET

Anita, Christine, Debs,

You guys need a reality check and aren't even worth replying to. I hope you are not Cdn/U.S. citizens. Are you just hoping and praying for another 9/11 attack. Well, Isreal is fed up after 8 years of being fired on by rockets filled with sharpnel, and the lastest, phosphorous. Isreal is trying to destroy the weapons manufacturing shops in Gaza that supply them, the only industry that seems to have mushroomed in recent years, along with tunnel digging. You also need to read more current world news to become familiar about how humanitarian the world and some countries are today. Particularily, the very nations that support terrorist activities. If you know how to do some math the 3 week old defensive operation of Isreal has an extremely low percentage of deaths and injured Gazans, out of a 1.5 million extremely densely populated strip of a hell hole that the Palestinians turned it into.

Debs, your Intern'l. Red Crosss, UNRWA, CAIR, operating over in Gaza are aiding and supporting Hamas terrorists and you call yourselves neutral, international organizations. I hope the U.S. cuts funding drastically for Gaza. I'm tired of my tax dollars going to terrorists and will never contribute to Red Cross again.

Also, who gave Palistinians the idea that the land belongs to them ... the terrorist organizations supported by the other Arab states because Islam preaches that Isreal has no right to exist because they are Jewish. There is and never has been a state of Palistine. They were displaced Arabs who were not resettled after 1948 when Egypt, Syria refused to take them. In more recent years, Jordan did give some of them citizenship, but not all for whatever reason. Isreal has every right to reclaim the West Bank and Gaza and should do so after this conflict. I'm quite fed up with Arabs and their right to entitlement and their violent Islamic cult religion.

Former IDF soldier.   January 16th, 2009 3:54 am ET

Well said Israel Lover. I don't understand you people. You call yourself neutral but you claim Israel is wreaking destruction around them because they want to kill civilians!?!?!??! That's Ridiculous!!!! Israel has a right to protect itself and it will with all force necessary to protect its people and all you people who think otherwise can come with me the next time I'm called up for duty and I swear by god I will show you what war really is... What we do to keep our people safe and what we do to keep innocent people out of harms way. And I promise you I will show you how we throw out the garbage. And when I say garbage I mean the militants and terrorists who hide behind civilians and fire rockets at civilians who are no different from the people they hide behind.

eddie   January 16th, 2009 8:31 am ET

anybody there

Samuel   January 16th, 2009 9:28 am ET

when Hamas thugs went on the rampage in Gaza in 2007 ,throwing Fatah loyalists etc. off buildings to their deaths ,blowing up their houses etc where were the critics then?Fascists in the Islamic world have plenty tosay about Israeli,s and Jews .What about Sunni,s and Shias killing each other every day in Iraq ,Afghanistan ,Pakistan Somalia and other countries .Sunni tribal leaders gather for a meeting in Baghdad and get blown up by a demented muslim suicide female bomber.Shia,s in Sadr City get the same treatment .Religious thugs in Afghanistan kill fellow moslems at market places .I suppose the Jews are to blame?Get real or go to hell

Samuel   January 16th, 2009 9:55 am ET

the picture of Karl Penhaul slumped over his laptop talking to a journalist or whoever in Gaza makes one wonder how impartial CNN really is when commenting on the facts as they are and not as they should be. The simple fact is that Gaza actually is part of Egypt ,but the Egyptian government can,t expell th hundreds and thousands of so called Palestinians back to the West bank ( commonly known as Jordan) because of divisions ,disputes ,s ,and factions in the Muslim world.One Arab spokesman says one thing another something completely different.The mere fact that Egypt won,t open Rafah border postsays it all ( reaffirms this idea) in other words they don,t want trouble making Sunni (Hamas thugs upsetting the staus quo of Egyptian /Muslim politics. Ask the buraeucrats there about the Brotherhood( the Muslim one)

Gina   January 16th, 2009 11:16 am ET

It is a DISGRACE what is being allowed to happen to the Palistinians , these people do not even have a way to defend themselves., but the big bad JEWS will still keep killing, taking father's from there families, KILLING CHILDREN!!!!! It makes me SICK that NOT one gov. official has condemed what Israel is doing!!! they are comminting GENOCIDE!!!!

Dina   January 16th, 2009 2:07 pm ET

We are tired of world hypocrisy.

Ask Khaled Meshal, to mercy his people. This morning he said Hamas will not accept Israeli conditions for a cease-fire in Gaza and would continue armed resistance until the offensive ends.

Someone must wake him up and tell him this is the end. He doesn't care about the death of hundreds of Palestinians. His doubtful honor is not letting him accepting the ceasefire.

On the other hand, maybe it's better for Palestinians for this war to be continued. Within a day to two, Israel will take over Gaza, the Hamas leaders will be taken as prisoner and the people of Gaza will be free of Hamas terror.

Front cover   January 16th, 2009 2:31 pm ET

Seriously the introduction to this blog showing two people talking through laptop could be used in some communication show.
Why you can not show hundred of children, women and others killed, wounded , with burnt skin from chemical weapon used by Israel . I think CNN should show a world news using technology not using technology to hide real news up.

Renana Bar   January 16th, 2009 4:47 pm ET

A BRIEF NOTE FROM THE MOTHERS AND FATHERS OF THE CHILDREN OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL:

Every time we encounter the phrase “The Aggressive Israel in Gaza”, it strikes us again and again how the essence of this conflict is being misunderstood.
So let us make one thing clear.

It is not this blurred vague entity which you call “Israel” who is doing everything it’s doing in Gaza.
These were us, the mothers and fathers of the children of the State of Israel who approached our soldiers and told them – go in and destroy them !!!!
Don’t get it wrong, it was our decision to do so – a very hard one, none that you could ever understand, since you never had to face one like this for yourselves.

So hear us out -
We, the mothers and fathers of the children of the State of Israel have decided – to stop sacrifice the lives of our children for the lives of their children, and start sacrifice their children’s lives for the lives of ours.

Sure, we told our soldiers to do their best not to hurt children (although it was their parents who willingly turned their children’s roof into a storage place for missiles and ammunition, and their play ground into a booby-trapped battle field) , but we also told them that this will no longer be their first priority.

For us, the mothers and fathers of the children of the State of Israel, this conflict is not at all about territory, nationality, religion or ideology. What you see these days in Gaza is nothing that concerns any of this.

What you see there is the angry roaring fist of lions and lionesses that we became after suffering years of brutal hostility, and who are now willing to crush anyone who tries to kill our children – to the dust !!!
A basic inner parental instinct that lies within all of us.

So yes, it is us that you see there and nobody else. And therefore, you can now look into our eyes when you say whatever you say.
And we will look into yours and tell you, that from now on, when it comes to our children, it will always be to the dust.

And if time comes, we as parents expect you, the mothers and fathers of the children of the rest of the world to choose the same. Because if for any “humanitarian reason” you won’t – we pity your children…

amanda sager/corbin   January 16th, 2009 5:48 pm ET

Why is that thousands of innocent men, women, and children have to die, or be injured? Although I do agree with Renana Bar when it was stated they will fight to the dust for their children, as any mother would, I still couldn't see myself putting another child's safety at risk. Over what? Is there any good that is to come out of this war? Is this just another statement trying to be made?

Anita   January 16th, 2009 5:50 pm ET

Wow, Israel Lover, you sound like walking death. I hope you don't decide to scrap on bomb and kill a lot of innocent people, whether they be Jew or Palistian.

And, you best believe I am an American born and raised. It's people like you who attacked our soil on 911. It is people like you who walk like man but sound and act like a demon.

Christine, Debs and I have not said one thing for or against Israel or Palistine. Stop drinking it distorts.

Anita   January 16th, 2009 5:57 pm ET

Former IDF soldier, you and Israel blog to fight, not to understand. One track mines with self absorb opinions lead to suicidal bombers. Be careful that you don't lose touch with reality. Being American, my country is hated by almost every other country on earth and we never seek to destroy until we elected to Bush, which is about to change. So be very careful for what you believe is right before thinking it through.

Former IDF soldier.   January 16th, 2009 7:27 pm ET

Anita you should think before you speak.. First of all I am American born and bred, my family has served the United States longer then you or your parents have probably been around. Second of all I love Israel and the US equally, Israel is as much a part of me as Israel so don't b.s. me on how its people like me who screw up the country I have sacrificed for, the only reason I served in the IDF and not in the US Military is because I could not be a religious Jew there and serve my country so therefore I took the next best option and served in the fight on terror with my co-coreligionists. Lastly you may call yourself American but if you truly are one then I am ashamed to call myself one. How can you blame Israel in this conflict?? If your American you's your logic and think about it, Hamas started it 8 years ago when they began launching rockets at the Negev. Israel is just protecting its people as the U.S. is doing in Afghanistan.

Isreal Lover   January 16th, 2009 7:29 pm ET

To Anita: F.Y.I. Her is my first post on this blog:
I chose the name Isreal Lover because my real name on here was already taken. I actually happen to be a 5.2" blonde piece of American/Cdn. fluff but one who thinks a little bit. I just don't subscibe to your unrealistic, Liberal left viewpoint. I wonder what you have to say about all the terrorist acts that have been committed around the world to date. Maybe when you experience one you'll change your tune just like Isreal is doing now or like the one in New York. You can't hide forever in your little idealistic dream world. How do you think you would be living now today, if nations hadn't fought for our free and democratic society that we now have in most parts of the world? I think you have been watching too much of Al Jazeera T.V.

To refresh your memory:

Isreal Lover January 12th, 2009 1823 GMT

I am not Jewish or Christian and I’m not a fan of any other organized religious group in the world. If that means I am going to burn in hell when I die, (if the heaven/hell concept exists in every religion?), I’m taking my chances because I’ve survived this long without religion. I support Isreal in its right to exist as a state and its right to self-defence.
Also, I support Isreal because I know for certain that it is the only true ally that the U.S./Canada has amongst the ME countries, Iran, Syria and North Korea. I embrace the Jewish people simply because I am 100% certain that Isreal will not attack the U.S. or Canada and I know that a Jewish terrorist will not try to blow up me or my country. I have never been afraid of anyone Jewish or anything Isreali but I am deeply offended and disturbed by the militant Islamists and the extreme hate shown by them in their demonstrations against Isreal around the world.

The picture in Gaza is not pretty but it is a war zone and I think it is terrible that so many lives are being lost because of the Hamas terrorists. Shifa Hospital is being used by them as a base to operate out of and they even have an underground bunker there. It is well documented that Hamas is stealing aid and killing Palestinians who are not supportive of them. Isreal refuses to bomb this hospital because the civilians in there obviously but in a war zone every target is fair game. No other country in the world would have used the restraint and caution that Isreal has shown to date.

When are the Hamas leaders going to come out of hiding and agree to a cease fire? They are using the Palestinian civilians as pawns for their own agenda in this fight and the other Arab states have a lot to answer for also, especially Egypt and Syria for aiding Hamas to smuggle in their arms for the last 8 years. In fact, over the last 60 years the other Arab states seem to have done very little to help the Palestinians and continue to keep them in refugee camps and use them for cheap labour (eg. Jordan) and impose all sorts of restrictions on them. Isreal is not the only guilty party in this conflict.

Gabriel Liberty   January 16th, 2009 7:54 pm ET

Anita your lack of understanding is refreshing. You must not have been alive during the Cold War. You must not have been alive in 1999 when Clinton did the bombing of Yugoslavia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_of_the_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia

This would put you at around 9 years old. This might be true based on your comments.

The battle that is being fought is just, support Israel let them finish. For if Israel does not, peace will not continue. Peace is possible, the Westbank is the example now. The country is thriving, they have turned the corner, denounced terrorism and are moving forward to a better life. Hamas has killed 10 times more Palestinians then Israel. The world sat by as they kill without consequence. But the moment the Jewish state protects itself the hate speech grows. All the hatred of the Jews comes out. The moment that the Muslims love there children more then they hate the Jews there will be peace.

Anita   January 16th, 2009 8:01 pm ET

Former IDF soldier, I do not know why you are coming out of left field. You know nothing about my family history as I know nothing about yours.

Cannot fathom how the hell you came up with me disliking or hating Israel for that matter out of my first post on this blog. Whether I am a Jew or not, I am the Israel Lover but I love no country more than I love my own country America.

That's all I have to say. Please do not respond because it seems you're only understanding what you want and looking for a fight. I only wanted to understand others thoughts and opinions. I wasn't looking to start a blog fight.

Be well

Former IDF soldier.   January 16th, 2009 8:20 pm ET

Anita I think you need to get off your high horse. If you look at the history of this blog its clearly been a battle.

nina   January 16th, 2009 9:45 pm ET

Please read this disturbing piece written about the ways in which the Israeli Government is controlling how the situation in Gaza is being covered in Israel - and to think Israel regards itself as a democratic state!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/16/gaza-middleeast1

reader   January 16th, 2009 10:07 pm ET

Anita you are totally right about the soldier . People like he thinks they can do anything and they are beyond a law. The horrible story is that It is a naked true . Nobody can do anything to Israel so everything ends on talking. The peace treaty between Palestine and Israel will be carry out only after Israel ruins Gaza. when Israel gets what it wants that time peace will be singed. That time USA or other countries will say we accomplished the peace. All what they accomplished is letting Israel exterminates Palestinians. Israel will be able to say It accomplished its goal and I am sure they will.

Serge   January 16th, 2009 10:11 pm ET

Re: Former IDF soldier

Israel is waging a war because it believes it can silence Hamas and impose a “made in Israel” peace on Palestinians. Peace that will allow it continue its occupation; retain its settlements, its checkpoints and its policy of repression. Thanks to people like you Israel is becoming ever so bold to carryout it’s suffering on innocent people. Israel believes it has the influence and the power to make the world think it is fight a just cause. Fortunately it isn’t working. Its bloodied hand and troubled soul is in plain view of all to see. Its die-hard supporters like you believe that Israel can never do wrong. Well let me tell you that Israel is doing gravely wrong right now. In the end power will be Israel’s biggest curse. As long it has the power it will never negotiate in honesty and as many other so called powers of the past it will cease to exist. We can call Hamas a terrorist group but it is Israel that is carrying out the terror. We can call Palestinian despicable people but it is Israel that is an occupier. If Israel were to end its occupation and go back 1967 boarders Hamas will have no relevance. You see the truth is Israel needs Hamas more than it needs peace. Hamas provides Israel a perfect cover to bomb, kill and starve. While peace requires Israel to give up the land and illegal settlements Hamas give it the pretext to keep it and serves as target for IDF training. Israel will never remove its illegal settlements unless the price of occupation becomes greater than price of peace. Hamas or some other so-called “terror” group will find a way to inflict pain on its oppressor and the conflict will go on. Hamas justly believes it is fighting the occupation and Israel wants to keep the land given to it by God himself. You can’t go wrong with God on your side.

I dare you Mr. Ex IDF to support the virtues and not the demonic side of Israel. Israel is only party in the conflict that has the power to bring about peace – Palestinians have no power or voice. They have nothing to give in return. They have nothing. Just think what you would do Mr. IDF if places were traded and Hamas was the occupier. Would you not fight? Would you not resist occupation? Don’t give me the useless rhetoric that Hamas is sworn to destroy Israel. Israel knows Hamas has no power to do. Stop the deceit and get out of the illegal land Israel and live in peace. Last night while I sat in a synagogue I could help think that something was going terribly wrong with Israel. It has become so frightened to stand against injustice. Aggression is a sign of hopelessness.

Serge   January 16th, 2009 11:03 pm ET

Re: Renana Bar

You got me wee bit confused Renana. Are you saying that Israel is fighting to make its children safe? And you also expect every father and mother to do the same. Right?

Well, let see Ms bar. In the last 20 days Israel has killed 300 Palestinian children give or take a few. We won't even worry about the maimed, crippled and injured. Now would like Hamas to do the same. Is that what you are suggest?

Renana Bar I don't know which planet you come from. Your logic is wee bit screwed. I don't believe there is a need to kill any child on either side. Israeli children will be safe if Israel goes back to legal 1967 boarders. It may hard for you believe but It all about land and occupation Ms Bar. You see Ms Bar, Palestinians don't want Israeli land – they want Israel to get out of the illegally occupied land. Is it that hard to understand Ms Bar. And yes Ms. Bar I am not a Palestinian, Arab or Muslim not that there is anything wrong with that. I see both sides without any fog in my eyes. So let Tzipi Livni to stop lying to the world and start protecting Israel's kids by not stealing land of others.

Thank you and long live Israel while is trying so hard to eliminate children on the other side. You sure made things clear as mud. Do you work for AIPAC Ms Bar. Just curious?

Isreal Lover   January 17th, 2009 9:36 am ET

Ahhhhh! nice to see you back on here Serge.
Anita: You are far too sensitive. Don't go on some of the other blogs on CNN as there are really nasty insults being hurled back and forth on one I was on today. I mean really bad, even I didn't have the stamina to stay online there for very long. Now, you have attacked me twice on here calling me all sorts of names. All I said to you and Debs etc. is that you need a reality check and to read some history and that I don't agree with your simplistic view of the situation in Gaza. Anyway, I've also been called retarded by someone else on here. That's okay, it's always good to get some objective opinions from others about oneself.

Today, Friday, I am ROTFL (rolling on the floor laughing) just in case some do not know of the cyberspeak abbreviations (not that I know them all either). The best headline of today's news has to be CNN's "Obama says he always thought Bush was a good guy!" Too much, this so funny. The other laugh was "Obama thinks he can keep his Blackberry"

I'm actually beginning to like CNN again, keep it up guys! I wonder what other words of wisdom we'll hear in the coming days from Obama and Hilary, although I do think she is by far the smarter, more experienced politician than Obama who has a resume so long that it can fit on the back of his Visa card. I would also like to thank CNN for letting us blog on here without censoring .... makes life so much more interesting. In Canada the newspapers censor all commentary and have online mediators because the insane gov't run "thought police" don't allow freedom of speech anymore so newspapers don't want to encounter lawsuits. The funny thing is with all the aggressive demonstrators out on the streets lately in cities across Canada in suupport of Gaza, with their slogans of hate against Jews, burning pictures of the Cdn. PM Harper, burning flags, etc. they seem to be able say and do as they like and even get a police escort while demonstrating in Toronto. I don't know why they just don't go back to their own countries if they hate Canada and the U.S. so much.

IDF Soldier, when you read your Isreali history books, you and all the Isreali military must double over laughing. Most Isrealis must laugh until tears roll down. I never thought I would become a fan of military war stategy as I usually stick to romance novels but today I read a brief summary on the Six Day War of 1967 because most Arabs keep refering to land borders before 1967 in connection with this current conflict in Gaza.

As I understand it, the Palestinians want the West Bank, Gaza strip back just because 400,000 were displaced in the Sinai by the 48/49 war which was Isreal's victory and the creation of the state of Isreal. Anyway, Isreal won these parcels of land again in the 1956 war, along with Sharm el Sheikh to ensure access to the Gulf of Aqaba, when they pushed Egypt out of the Sinai, but later withdrew turning them over to UN forces.

The Six Day War has to be one of the most brilliant military battles of all time in history. Tiny little Isreal who was provoked into this war also, out-gunned and out numbered took down four Arab armies sitting on its borders in six days (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria) from June 5 to June 10, 1967. In addition the Arabs spent months building up supplies, war planes, etc. etc. and had backup with armies from Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan. The Arabs lost the war because they didn't know how to fight. First the Egyptians changed their battle plans four times having to move ground troops around. Then the Egyptian air force never even got off the ground, neither did the Syrian, Iraqi planes and Jordan' s planes were wiped out by the evening of the first day of the War. By the end of day three Isreal had blitzed 416 planes.

The ground battles were tougher to win but again, Egypt turned and ran away while claiming a huge victory in the Sinai, Jordan got surrounded and Isreal could have even moved on to Jericho in Jordan but didn't. They even recaptured the Old City of Jerusalem, a battle which they planned at the last minute. By the time Syria entered the war they had the wrong information about huge victories from Egypt, so their airforce was taken out in hours, and their ground troups couldn't organize a defense on the Golan Plateau. They turned and ran away so Isreal had nothing much to fight against and had climed up the very steep rocky escarpment of the Golan for nothing. lol One of the highlights, besides taking Old Jerusalem has to be when Syria tried to capture a water plant on the Jordan River and they drove their tanks into the river where they sank! So all of these Arab nations with their state-of-the-art fighter planes and tanks, guns supplied by Russia, 250,000 (approx.?) ground troups lost the war because they were a bunch incompetent cowards.

My summary above might not be entirely accurate, as I said above, I usually read romance novels.

Isreal didn't steal anybody's land – Arabs, Palestinians get it? I don't think Isreal owes any Arab state or Palestinian one sq. inch of land today. Since when does a country return terroritory won fare and square in war, especially one they didn't start in 1967. The Arabs were "gung ho"for the 1967 war and their goal as stated by Nasser of Egypt was the destruction of Isreal. Ever since the Arabs have been so humiliated and burning up with rage and hate to get back at Isreal. This is why other battles have erupted since then in 73/74, '82, 2006 and on it goes. Today, the Ham-asses are still running away and hiding behind the skirts of their women and kids. Nothing ever changes, the Arabs still haven't learned the strategy of battle, except to use dirty street gang fighting and violence.

The current conflict in Gaza right now has nothing to do with land. The situation that the Palestinians find themselves in is their own fault. There is no occupation of any land by Isreal today. Isreal you are are too kind and have sacrificed too much to develop your country so take every thing back. Flatten Gaza, no apologies to the world. I would suggest that Isreal tell all Arabs to go fuck themselves and then boot their asses into the Gulf waters over there. Let's see how far they can swim before the sharks eat them.

Niels   January 17th, 2009 2:46 pm ET

Hamaz has murdered hundreds of innocent civilians in busses, cafes and shopping malls all over Israel. They use women and children as suicide bombers and claim GOD is on their side without anyone in the media crying out.

The Gazans elected a terrorist organization to lead them. Did they believe that this brilliant move would bring peace with their neighbours?

Hamaz executed and jailed their political opponents from Fatah, just to show the world that they were a serious political party, to be invited to negotiations with the west.

After Israel abandoned its settlemnts in Gaza after 40 years, Hamaz started one of historys biggest arms smuggling ops. Build bunkers for the chosen few and stole property in grand style for the leaders. They used schools, mosques and even hospitals as weapons storage and defense positions. They use the donated money to pay hamas members and familys of suicide bombers.

No civilian protection system was planned, in stead a cynical and cowardly strategy to exploit the western media with pictures of civilian casualties.

Israel has shown that with hard work, discipline and brilliant education systems you can build a beautiful country from almost scrap. Very few palestinians can support themselves without outside help. Support Israels fight and right to defend themselves.

supporte   January 17th, 2009 3:17 pm ET

Israeli Lover you are right . The rest of the world is so affraid of us Jews they will not do anything about killing Palestinians. Lets finish them up, after all we make peace with ruins of Gaza , we make world happy it got a peace. It will not have smallest clue there will be nothing left to peace with. It should make them calm. After while we take care of our next neighbour . The way in reasonable time we get everything we wanted. We have to take care of Iran as well.

Peter Heuscher   January 19th, 2009 2:46 am ET

I really am aware of all the suffering in Gaza – but there is a but !!
The cry now because their houses are gone – they cry because their streets are gone – but did they cry when their leadership launched rockets into Israel. Didn't they vote for Hamas some years ago well knowing that Hamas's goal still is clearly to erradicate Israel from the map ??
People of Gaza – wake up and get your government right,
a government which will be able and willing to make peace with Israel for the benefit of everybody.

Israel had no choice but to track down your Hamas militantsand it's up the the Gaza people to get things right – the Westbank doesn't have the same peoblems – but they are not attaching Israel constantly.

Gilberto Jimenez   January 19th, 2009 2:53 am ET

Israel is wielding it´s legitimate right to defend (51 article united nations) and Hamas is the one that contravene child rights because they use them as human shields in mosques, schools, hospitals where they keep weapons that wants Israel destruction.

bornblue62   January 19th, 2009 11:12 am ET

I am reading all the above posts and have to say the following.

1. I truly feel for the innocent people [on both sides] who get caught up in other peoples problems. It is true that both Jew and Muslim can live together, and this has been shown throughout the years. Not only under Jewish rule, but also under Muslim rule. It is the extremist on both sides who cannot open their hearts to allow their brothers to live in peace. If they are professing fellowship with God; regardless who their personal God is; they must find a way to live together.
2. The people in Gaza need to stand up. Not to Israel, but to the murderous leaders of Hamas. I have always wondered how these leaders can inspire people to become human bombs and say that this is the quickest way to Heaven, but they are not the first ones to line up for the chance at the choice jobs. If you look back in history, on both sides of the religious divide, you will find leaders who believed in what they were doing and in so believing THEY WERE AT THE FRONT OF THE PEOPLE. To all the people of Gaza, search out these leaders. The ones who lead you from the front, not cowering behind the women.
On the Israeli side, follow those who will honestly have dialogue with the real Palestinian people.
3. All of the people on both sides need to realize one thing. It is 'the year of our lord two thousand and nine'. TIME TO COME JOIN THE REST OF US CIVILIZED PEOPLE IN LIVING AND ENJOYING THAT LIFE.

Straight talk   January 19th, 2009 3:46 pm ET

The cowardly hateful Palestinian militants have such high regard for their populace they are willing to volunteer them as human shields.

Palestinians die as a result of the uncaring actions of Hamas, whose actions openly invite the reaction of Israel.

Only once the Palestinian people realize they have been used as pawns and rise against Hamas (and their ilk) can Palestine hope for peace.

Palestinians: control your own, or be prepared for someone else to.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

sophia   January 19th, 2009 7:15 pm ET

dear "history is written a winner" -

most of what we know about the war crimes committed by the Nazis is from footage, documentation and records taken / written / kept by the Nazis themselves. So history, at least in this tremendously ironic case, is not written by the winners.

And you must have a reading comprehension problem b/c what you seem to have read is not what i wrote. try taking a Kaplan or princeton review course. They reach great reading comprehension skills.

As for the "war crimes" being commited by the Israelis. I have not yet seen footage of Israeli soldiers marching palestinians, clad in striped pajamas, into gas chambers, or palestinians being tested on like Guinea pigs... But clearly, you have such footage. why don't share it ?

The TREMEDOUS problem with your argument, is that it isn't really an arguemnt. It's just an attention seekin statement. I will admit that there are legitimate criticisms that could be made about Israel's tactics, currently or historically. I dont' necessarily agree with them, but some are consructive and worth listening to. But when you compare Israelis to Nazis, you lose an intellectual audience. I and i"m sure many others read that comparison and just tune out th erest of your points. You should try doing some research and constructing a real argument. I think that would be more effective.

sophia   January 19th, 2009 7:18 pm ET

correction – meant for " histroy is wrritten BY a winner"

william urie   January 19th, 2009 10:25 pm ET

MANS INHUMANITY TO MAN MAKE COUNTLESS THOUSANDS MOURN THE WORLD OVER...ROBERT BURNS SCOTLAND UK.

Peter   January 20th, 2009 7:57 am ET

Hi Israel Lover

I just have to agree with almost everything you said about the
Arabs. I said to my wife: "flatten Gaza" and let them rebuilt it – who ever is left.
Naturally she was very upset – but as I said previously – they started the rockets time and time again. And now they are whinching about the losses.
And to crazy thing will be, that the west will finance the rebuilding of it all – so that means for Hamas – that they can see themselves as victims. Isn't it a crazy world ???

Samuel   January 20th, 2009 2:04 pm ET

The only white that John Ging and Christopher Gunness can see is 72 virgins floating by on clouds looking for Khaled and Ismail ,to take them to paradise.If this really is the case ,good riddance ,once and for
all.

Samuel   January 20th, 2009 2:15 pm ET

Less than a year ago OPEC members were raking in 4 billion dollars per day with oil at 147 dollars per barrel,The Saudi,s and their Gulf States cronies can only scrape together 1 billion dollars for reconstru
ction in Gaza, which begs the question .Who,s fooling who ?

sivan   February 8th, 2009 12:01 am ET

i really think u all should look from the other side..
i mean, Israel sufford 4 more than 8 years from Hama'sss attacks
there were in israel in these 8 years thouzends of victoms who died and hondreds of houses who've been destroyd becouse of Hamas and family's who are still now grieving on there childeren or brothers or sister
and Israel didn't do a thing 4 these whole 8 yaers!!
and now that there done waiting and hoping for Hamas 2 stop and there returning 2 Hamas what they disorve i think Israel has the right 2 do that and more than that she has to do what she is doing 2 protect herself and 2 show the world that she sufford allready 2 mucht!!!
i hope that after people read this they will think a little more positive about Israel and what risk she is taking and i hope more people will support Israel..

Pat Starr   October 8th, 2012 6:37 pm ET

Am I the only one looking into the business aspect of this situation. As a Dentist in west island I can see there is a huge opportunity to grow and we should let capitalism to roam free.

international phone service cell phones   November 9th, 2012 9:32 pm ET

Hey very nice website!! Man .. Excellent .. Amazing .. I will bookmark your blog and take the feeds also�I'm happy to find so many useful info here in the post, we need develop more strategies in this regard, thanks for sharing. . . . . .


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