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Inside the Middle East
January 8, 2009
Posted: 1903 GMT

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GAZA CITY, Gaza (CNN) - Israeli forces fired on a U.N. aid convoy Thursday in Gaza, killing two aid workers, during a three-hour truce that Israel set up to allow humanitarian aid to reach civilians, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said.

"Since the conflict began 13 days ago, four UNRWA local staff have been killed," according to a statement from Ban's representative referring to the U.N. Relief and Works Agency.

"The U.N. is in close touch with the Israeli authorities about a full investigation of this and other incidents, and about the need for urgent measures to avoid them in the future."

As a result of Thursday's fatal attack on its aid convoy, the U.N. relief agency will suspend activities in Gaza until the Israeli military can guarantee the safety of its staff, said the agency's chief spokesman, Chris Gunness, in Jerusalem.

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Filed under: Gaza •Israel •United Nations


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Ulme   January 8th, 2009 7:14 pm ET

CNN reporters are utterly devoted to counting every bottlerocket that Hamas fires at Israel. I would like to know how many state-of-the-art rockets, misseles, bombs, DIME shells, white phosphorous missiles, etc. that Israel has used to massacre the starving, caged-in people of Gaza from the air, from the ground and from the sea? Why don't we hear any numbers here? Too high to count?

Rod   January 8th, 2009 7:19 pm ET

Sad to see Civilians and Aid workers killed.
Israel should stop this aggression and let Palestinians live.
read this from Uri Avnery

"Some time ago I wrote that the Gaza blockade was a scientific experiment designed to find out how much one can starve a population and turn its life into hell before they break. This experiment was conducted with the generous help of Europe and the US. Up to now, it did not succeed. Hamas became stronger and the range of the Qassams became longer. The present war is a continuation of the experiment by other means."

http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html

Rod   January 8th, 2009 7:24 pm ET

From the article :

"This war is a writing on the wall: Israel is missing the historic chance of making peace with secular Arab nationalism. Tomorrow, It may be faced with a uniformly fundamentalist Arab world, Hamas multiplied by a thousand.
MY TAXI DRIVER in Tel-Aviv the other day was thinking aloud: Why not call up the sons of the ministers and members of the Knesset, form them into a combat unit and send them off to head the coming ground attack on Gaza? "

I see it happening with all the anger in the Arab world seeing children killed like they are nothing.

Hope peace prevails and the massacres stop.

barham   January 8th, 2009 7:30 pm ET

Even humanitarian UN workers are being killed now! and during the TRUCE!!! what a group of terrorists Israeli Defense force is! and anyone defends them is sadly the same as them.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 7:33 pm ET

I don't believe anything that comes out of the UN

Debs   January 8th, 2009 7:37 pm ET

As a Red Cross human rights officer, who has done overseas work, this is unnaceptable.

The investigation needs to be carried out and those guilty should face charges.

All sides are reminded that the intetional or unintentional killing of U.N., Red Cross staff or other aid staff that provide care is illegal. Against International law and againt the Geneva Convtions.

Final Thought.

If this is what is happening to U.N. Aid staff, what is happening to civilians.

Israel has killed far more civilians that Hamas. This is proof that the bombings should never have happened. Gaza is far too compact.

I

barham   January 8th, 2009 7:39 pm ET

Yes, there is one country in the world, it is israel, all else is just a big lie linda! how balanced you are!

cubfan   January 8th, 2009 7:41 pm ET

Rod I have to disagree, Hezbollah only gained more credibility when Israel buckled to UN pressure for cease fire. Only total victory and an unconditional surrender will create an opportunity for Peace between Israel and the Palestinian people of Gaza. One only needs to look back in history to similar situations where a dangerous and evil army was brought to its knees and peace was achieved. The Confederacy in the Civil War, the Nazis, and the Japanese in World War 2 were all forces to accept conditions after an uncompromising military victory. War and the casualties the people of the US, Germany and Japan were forced to endure ultimately created a lasting peace and prosperity for its citizens. War can be a positive for the world if evil is destroyed and Hamas is pure evil.
The UN should stay out of this.

Professor   January 8th, 2009 7:42 pm ET

right.... and remember Israel never does anything wrong... Its people are the chosen people by G-d....

Rod   January 8th, 2009 7:43 pm ET

Linda
I have friends who were on the ground in Gaza and the West bank. and these people have seen all kinds or atrocities. been everywhere
and i trust these people they were an many war zones, natural disaster zones, been targeted by snipers and you name it and

those friends are very fair highly educated and have no agendas.
They told me "The situation is terrible beyond belief", this is before all of this happened, so you can imagine now.

This should stop! the UN is just doing nothing!
They suspend that Aid. they are Handicapped they do not want a cease fire.
Really thinkng now why do we have a UN anyway?

Professor   January 8th, 2009 7:43 pm ET

Oh and Hamas operatives are wearing UN jackets hiding underneath them.... Thats why they were killed.

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 7:44 pm ET

Neither side is spotless. Innocents have been killed by both. Blaming is useless. How do you decide who "owns" a piece of land. Go back 50 years? 100? 2000 years? Beyond that, Gaza should be left alone to live in peace. Israel should be left alone in peace. Teams of neutral country UN workers should monitor to see that Israel and Gaza are totally separated from each other, no contact in any way. Everyone should be productive, support themselves, and leave their neighbors alone.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 7:47 pm ET

barham,
What do you mean, how balanced am I. I did not say anything about either side, I said I don't believe anything that comes out of the UN. Why? because they are biased and they let the people of Gaza suffer.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 7:48 pm ET

Rod, I agree, and I would listen to people there. They are the ones living there, underneath all of this mess. They are the ones that know

barham   January 8th, 2009 7:49 pm ET

Cubfan, so you compare Nazis to Hamas? well the Nazis occupied other nations land, so i see Israelis have more similarity with Nazis than hamas does, sorry my friend but it is just a fact whether you like it or not.

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 7:51 pm ET

debs,

the investigation should be carried out whether it is true taht the hamas leadership are in sheefa hospital in the maternity ward

the investigation should be carried out whether indeed hamas terrorists move in the streets of gaza with babies in their arms

the investigation should be carried out why the red cross nvere visited ANY israeli kidnapped by hizbullah, hamas and what have you

the investigation should be carried out why the red cross told the world that teresienstadt (Terezin) is a perfectly nice place

the investigation should be carried out why hizbulla is running lebanon and not its government

you want afew more investigations to be carried out??

debs, i do not excuse the unfortunate death of the UN workers (there is no proof that they were killed by israel)

but justice for all, also for jews, don't you think so?

Professor   January 8th, 2009 7:52 pm ET

This is the most idiotic comparison cubfan.... Israel is the one using every Nazi tactics against the Palestinians....

Professor   January 8th, 2009 7:55 pm ET

The only investigations need to be done:

IOF shooting at schools...

IOF shooting at ambulances.....

IOF shooting at UN employees.....

IOF shooting at innocent unarmed civilians, babies, children, women and elderly.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 7:56 pm ET

Debs,
Since you have worked for the Red Cross, Can you answer a question for me that I have been wondering about for a long time? Why do the Red Cross send people a bill for services after they help them? I have always wanted to know.

Professor   January 8th, 2009 7:57 pm ET

Yes I agree... justice for all... Jews and Palestinians alike.... on equal grounds.

Anyone who killed a baby should be killed.

So, lets count how many Palestinians killed so far on the hands of Israelis..... and how many Israeli b

Professor   January 8th, 2009 7:58 pm ET

oops....

and how many Israeli babies killed on the hands on Palestinians...

What do you think about that?

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 7:59 pm ET

professor

go and finish highschool before you dare open your filthy mouth

chris   January 8th, 2009 7:59 pm ET

dan,

how can you honestly say that there is no proof that
UN HUMANITARIAN workers were not killed by Israel.
Hamas was probably hiding in the trucks?

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:00 pm ET

Professor,
If you want to count how many Palestinians ahve been killed so far by Israelis and visa versa, how many years are you willing to go back for your count? I don't think the count is the issue, I think the fact that killing is happening is what we need to focus on and stop.

Debs   January 8th, 2009 8:00 pm ET

Hello Dan,

Yes I do agree.

For me war initself is a crime. There shuld never be killing for any land or religion.

I responed to your comment when you mentioned the Israeli soldiers being kidnapped......I cant remeber which blogg though!!!

As an Red Cross human rights officer and volunteer I belive firmly for human rights for all humans. Read my comment on below blogg...

It is bad that this world will still seek methods of destruction to solve its problems. I fear now that the violence has escalated to the point now there will be no chance of any reconciliation.

Dan, its a sorry tragic mess. Arabs Jews your both human being that have red blood, breath the same air, have the same heart. It sensless!!

Shalom and Salam

Professor   January 8th, 2009 8:01 pm ET

See how ethica the IOF are?....

They shoot and Kill UN employees during so called truce...

Annie Tundermann   January 8th, 2009 8:01 pm ET

Speaking as an onlooker, as a European living in the USA, and someone who was against the Iraq war, I am outraged at what is happening in Gaza. I am not taking sides, but in my opinion this Israeli offensive is no better than Hamas in this aggression. It is obvious that it is not an answer to the problem and that the human rights of the Palestinian were already taken away and that they have been living as virtual prisoners within the 'Strip'. If other Arab factions side with the Palestinians in defending themselves, they will have brought it upon themselves.

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:02 pm ET

Chris,

i did not say who killed them. i don't know, nor do you.

remeber muhamad al dura?

a french court recently found in favor of media critic Philippe Karsenty, overturning a lower court decision that he had libeled France 2 and its Jerusalem correspondent Charles Enderlin when he accused them of knowingly misleading the watching world about the death of the Palestinian child Muhammad al-Dura in the Gaza Strip in 2000.

barham   January 8th, 2009 8:02 pm ET

Linda, UN biased to whom as you see it? do you think UN have the power to solve this situation but dont want to? why dont want to? I think as many thing else in the world UN needs much refinement and editing on its rule to be a better more capable entity.

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:03 pm ET

debs

thank you for your sane reply

you are an honest person. i may not always agree with you, but i respect you, unlike some others on this blog.

Thank you for being you

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:03 pm ET

Baram,
Are you serious?

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 8:04 pm ET

You can blame all day long. Solutions are needed for a lasting peace in Israel and Gaza, to keep them separated and safe.

Professor   January 8th, 2009 8:05 pm ET

Linda,

Killing needs to stop immediately....

I agree....

If Israel move back to the 1967 borders and let Palestinians determine their future leadership.... I guarantee you that Hamas will stop.... thats what they told Israel...

For your information.... the West Bank is still under Israeli Occupation... Its the IOF that attacked demonstrators today and yesterday.... The Israeli settlements are still all over the West Bank...

So its not only Gaza.... although Gaza is the one who is under attack right now.

Debs   January 8th, 2009 8:06 pm ET

Linda,

Are you talking about the Red Cross? I think you may have picked something up wrong.

I hace been working for the red cross since I was 19 I was only permitted to do overseas work once I was over 25 because of leaglity, In my work abroad, I have worked in the ME and Africa. Not once have we asked for money from the people we have assisted.

The Red Cross assist people in crisis, we rely soley on public donated money, some local authority donates money.

Please let me reafirm the the red cross NEVER charge money, it would be illegal and against our core fundamentals.

Hope I answered question for yoy :)

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 8:08 pm ET

I still think a large multi-country, neutral countries, peace group that separates and monitors the peace between the two, long term, would be a helpful move. Unless the goal is continued war and death, a long term solution to keep both places safe is needed, not finger pointing or name calling or calling up old wounds.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:09 pm ET

Professor,
What in the world are you talking to me about?

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:09 pm ET

"If Israel move back to the 1967 borders and let Palestinians determine their future leadership…. I guarantee you that Hamas will stop…. thats what they told Israel…"

another lie by the one who wrote this

hamas charter:

Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:

---------------

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

and how about this:

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:11 pm ET

more from the hamas charter:

'The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the

circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over

the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped

for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.'

(Article 32)

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:11 pm ET

Debs, they do send bills to people they help. Maybe not in other countries, but in the United States. My grandfather received one when he was helped. I'll see if I can get a copy.

barham   January 8th, 2009 8:12 pm ET

Linda, yes im serious! you said UN is biased? i dont get it to whom UN is biased? is it biased to HAMAS, or IDF? and why the UN interested to by biased to either of them? what is the interest for the UN to biased as you say? maybe UN also wants a land who knows!

Debs   January 8th, 2009 8:12 pm ET

Hello Dan,

No problem Any questions just ask..

Respect and Shalom

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:13 pm ET

Debs,

i think linda is talkin about ambulance service to and from hospitals

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:15 pm ET

Barham,
If the UN is not biased, then why didn't the UNSC's first proposal say anything about Hamas stopping the rocket fire from Gaza? Why did they not address BOTH sides, not just what they thought Israel is doing wrong?
I don't know why they are biased, but they failed the people of Palestine, and now when a crisis breaks out, they want to pick sides.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:19 pm ET

Dan,
Yes, thank you for clarifying for me, I went back and read my post, and it was not clear.
they do charge for ambulances, among other things.

barham   January 8th, 2009 8:19 pm ET

Dan
I said before and i repeat, I am against Hamas for killing 5 Israelis, so it is about you now, are you against IDF for killing 700 Palestinians? or are you a supporter for killing?

Debs   January 8th, 2009 8:21 pm ET

Linda,

They should not be charging your grandfather any money.. Your grandfather should refuse to pay. It is against the core fundimantals of organization. The American Red Cross have been critisied for doing this.

You need to contact the local community services manager, and explain your situatione and say that the American Red Cross is a part of the Interantional body and remind them of their funadmenatls.

Better yet linda, please go onto your local red cross website ,,,,Amercian Red Cross and print out core fundamentals. one of which is voluntary service and care.

I am diasapponited. They should not be doing this. Please get back on blog and speak to me if you need help. Im always here chatting with other regulars.

Regards

Debs   January 8th, 2009 8:23 pm ET

Dan and Linda,

Yes thats called Pateint transport,

all countries I have worked in Red Cross work including UK never ever charge. There is something not right.

Linda please check this. They should not be charging you any money.

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:23 pm ET

linda, debs

ambulance service, i think, is charged everywhere, certainly the israeli red magen david also charges, e.g. for transporting patients between hospitals or after discharge from a hospital

when an insurance can be recharged, this is always done

Bero   January 8th, 2009 8:24 pm ET

Well, they're doing it! They intend to kill the whole population of Gaza, either from bombs or otherwise and they intend to kill anyone else who happens to be there so that there won't be any witnesses. Will somebody rid the world of this rogue state?

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:24 pm ET

barham

Since when is war a mathematical equation? The basic objective of any warring party is to inflict maximal damage on the enemy while minimizing its own casualties. Was there anything proportional about the British waging war in the Falklands? Or about Iraq's invasion of Kuwait for that matter? Or about Russia's recent war against Georgia? Israel is doing exactly what any other country has done in the past. This is how war works.

Would a British citizen complain that "too few" British soldiers are being killed in Iraq? Probably not.

And on a more elementary note: Palestinian military inferiority is not an indication of moral superiority. Palestinian insistence on resorting to violence despite this military weakness is an indication of poor judgment perhaps – yet it is by no means an indication of moral virtue. Being militarily weak does not make the Palestinians right

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:25 pm ET

Debs,
Thank you for the information. The reason it was such a thorn in his side is because he was also in WW2. They Charged the GI's for doughnuts, coffee, etc. and that made the GI's furious. Now, some people say that the military asked the Red Cross to, to make a profit, but it has always been a controversy.
He did refuse to pay, and my family no longer supports the Red Cross.

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:26 pm ET

bero

oh yeah?

You mean to say that "one of the most powerful armies in the world" has been bombing Gaza for days, deploying massive air power, dropping hundreds of bombs, and ultimately killing a grand total of about a few hundred people or so in the "most crowded place on earth?"

There are two options here: A) The Israeli army is not targeting civilians,
or B) Israeli pilots suck.

I tend to go with option A.

cubfan   January 8th, 2009 8:28 pm ET

barham
I was not comparing Hamas to Nazis, only using World War 2 as an argument for war and its ability to lead to a peace if you let it play out to a final conclusion. The UN should butt out of the Gaza situation and let the IDF bring Hamas to its knees so the people of Gaza can enjoy a peaceful and prosperous future like the people of the South, Germany and Japan achieved after their unconditional surrender. By getting in way the UN has perpetuated a horrible situation for decades and will accomplish nothing but more death for the foreseeable future. Let the IDF win the war and peace and prosperity will be the result.

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:29 pm ET

not a single comment on the hamas charter?

hypocrites

Debs   January 8th, 2009 8:34 pm ET

Linda,

I am deeply disturbed at the Amercian Red Cross for being like that...They are vilolating there oath that we must take and are not true red cross.

I hope that one day you will see that you will be able to see the work we really do.

The Red Cross back home in uk and europ have military hospitals that care for our soldiers, we also provide free postal service for the soldiers and their familes during time of cnflict so they can keep in touch with their families.

Regards

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:37 pm ET

Once again Deb,
I appreciate your information. Please don't think I have hard feelings towards any person working for the Red Cross.
That is wonderful that they do that for the soldiers. One group I support is soldiers angels. They do wonderful things also. I know the Red Cross do some good things, It is just such a sting to a military family. I will consider giving them another chance.

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:39 pm ET

linda, debs

when the discussion becomes civilized, the israel bashers disappear

Debs   January 8th, 2009 8:39 pm ET

Does anyone recognise that Halmas doesnt only terrorise Israeli civilians but Palestinian civilians as well?
cen
Hamas are using sucide bombers too. This is just as bad as The airstrikes. The degree of violence on both sides is sickening.

So anyone who thinks hamas are innocent. their not. They are not true soldiers, they use palestinian civilians as human sheilds.

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:41 pm ET

debs

welcome to the club

we have been saying this for years

Dea   January 8th, 2009 8:42 pm ET

I am outraged that the US response has been so unbalanced towards Israel. Yes, Israel had a right to respond to the initial missiles, but as the war progresses, nothing is being solved. There will be far greater hatred for Israel as an end result, not something they or the US hopes for. The US should be pushing harder for a cease fire and not relentlessly condoning Israel's attacks against terror, following the GWBush et Co. mandate post 9/11. No enduring peace will come while the US continues to support Israel without condition.

Nick-Canada   January 8th, 2009 8:44 pm ET

Hello everyone,
More trouble in the world I see, I still stand for Israel despite these aid worker deaths. There has been a few times where Canadian soldiers
have been killed do to friendly fire from the States, in Afganistan. At a time of war these things happen, it can't always be to the books, in both cases not the brightest move but these things happen, I don't think any less of American forces for this (Canadians killed). In the mayhem and stress's of war you can sometimes think anything that moves is the enemy. All a soldier is thinking about when on the front lines is living to see another day, by any cost.

Nick-Canada   January 8th, 2009 8:45 pm ET

Bravo Debs

Debs   January 8th, 2009 8:45 pm ET

Dan,

This is a terrible mess that needs to have a open discussion which is allows people to talk about real concerns.

Dont let others on blogg annoy you.

Okay, there are times when I agree with you and times I dont but do respect your views.Shaolm

Jim Bryson   January 8th, 2009 8:48 pm ET

The mess in the Mid-East is just that. Isreal only wants the rockets to stop. The ones firing the rockets want a cease fire with no stipulations, which means Isreal stops the attacks and hamas keeps firing rockets. The thing to remember is these homemade rockets have no guidance system. They are just aimed into Isreal and shot. They are not even targeting specific locations. Just a little change in the wind speed or direction can make the rocket miss the intended target by several miles. We sit back and try to get peace in the Mid-East. The Arabs don't want peace. They have been fighting for hundreds of years and are not going to stop. The only way to even start the peace process is to flood the country with peace keepers and punish the people firing the rockets on the spot. As long as Isreal exists in the region, there will be Arabs that are going to attack them.
JB

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:51 pm ET

Nick-
great to see you! did you get your snow shoveled last night?

Dea, why doe everyone keep expecting the United States to do anything different. These wars has gone on for years. Are we suppose to change our position every time someone annoys someone else? Why are we suppose to be the peace makers of the world? And the United States can support anyone they want, with or without conditions.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:53 pm ET

Jim Bryson,
Good insight.

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 8:54 pm ET

debs

thank you

i have seen many wars in israel, and i have heard the stories of my late father who was an inmate in auschwitz and in dachau.

i have never seen so much hate and so many lies as on this blog

i thinkl the media have a great part in it

they do not lie, but they slant the news to their own purposes and agendas

by telling only part of the truth they influence people who have no other way of getting the story, who live thousands of miles from the conflict

and it makes no difference whether we are talking about israel, darfour or cuba

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:54 pm ET

Dan,
You are correct about the bashers. I am proud of all of us who are keeping the conversations civil, not matter what your views are!

Debs   January 8th, 2009 8:56 pm ET

JIM, THANKYOU!!!!

I have said many many times that a peacekeeping force need to be here.

The ones firing the rockets should be the ones punished. The only ones.

Gaza also needs to be allowed be reopned to the world and the infrastruture to heal.

Then the talks on land issuses need to be discussed and a palestinian homeland to be secured.

For the sake of peace for Palestinians like my two friends, for the sake of peace for Israelis, like Beny and Dan on this blog.

Haseeb   January 8th, 2009 8:56 pm ET

it is true that the firing of hamas rockets is completely unacceptable and utterly wrong but that does not mean that whole population has to pay for that.In response to the crude hamas rockets israel is using its entire mordern war machine to slaughter gazans.Hamas rockets have killed 4 izraelis but in response idf has murdered 765 mainly innocent plastinians.
Every coutry has the right to self defence but it should not punish nor mass murder innocents in retaliation.No country would tolerate rockets fired upon but no country would also not tolerate such massive death toll and would go to war ,if able, but unfortunately plastinians cannot because they do not have a powerful army to defend them.
The latest attack shows clearly how double standard U.S policy is in real world.The U.S is ready to overlook the pastinian deaths and attacks on U.N in the light of "israeli right to self defence".This is not self defence it is almost genocide and tradegy is that the world remains silent.No country talks about possible sactions or the utter and clear violation of human rights by israel.
U.S was readily available to criticise russia in geogian war but turns a blind eye to the plight of plastinians who really need a protector.

The recent gaza crisis clearly points towards U.S alliance.It is high time for arabs to rise and drift from U.S as it will never help arabs aganist israel aggression but will help israel aganist arabs.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 8:57 pm ET

Dan,
I am sorry your father was an inmate (for lack of a better word). And there is so much hate on some of these blogs. It makes me wonder, If there is so much hate in people that are sitting in their living rooms, typing on a keyboard, then how will the hate stop in a volatile region? Is is possible?

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 9:00 pm ET

debs

thanks

i ahve said it many times, i will say it again

israel is for the two state solution israel is for peace, but not at any price

if israel cannot live in peace and security and has to fight for survival every few years, is that called a peace?

if the arabs threaten to wipe israel off the map every tuesday and thursday, is that called peace

i think not

Nick-Canada   January 8th, 2009 9:01 pm ET

HeyLinda,
Ya I got the snow shoveled last night, only to discover the same amount back there this morning, thankfully it has come to a stop now. Just a winter wonderland over here!

Linda   January 8th, 2009 9:01 pm ET

Is anyone else as appalled as I am when you see these protesters? How can you come to this country and spread such hatred when you are not allowed to spread it in your own?

Bero   January 8th, 2009 9:06 pm ET

Dan, it's not a question of doing it all in one week. This will be done slowly because if not, it would really be the end of Israel. No, this will continue over many months so that the rest of the world can stomach it. However, I imagine that, as with the Holocaust , there will be survivors and as happened then, the world will get over it.

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 9:07 pm ET

linda

isarel has ten arab members of parliament who hold fiery speeches against the very state they are supposed to serve anywhere in the world as well as in israel proper

have you ever heard of jewish members of arab parliaments (few exist) who criticized their countries?

have you ever heard of demonstrations against the giovernment, as in israel, even now?

that is the difference, no matter how much "professor" and his students call us nazis and other love expressions

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 9:09 pm ET

bero

what the f...k r u talking about?

Nick-Canada   January 8th, 2009 9:10 pm ET

Linda
I'm with you on that one. It should'nt be allowed here but I guess were a free country, freedom of speech, untill of coarse a Christian has anything to say.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 9:11 pm ET

There was a cease fire, so these talks should have already been taking place. Why did the UN drop the ball on this? Now we have this horrible situation, and I think it could have been avoided.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 9:13 pm ET

Nick,
Does freedom of speech mean that anyone can come into our country and have the same rights as the American Citizens? Even people that come to the US legally, but are not citizens, does not have the right to the 2nd amendment, so why do they have a right to our 1st amendment?

Jim Bryson   January 8th, 2009 9:13 pm ET

Hamas leadership is hiding like the cowards they are. They are counting on other cowards to set a rocket launcher in a school yard, between neighborhood houses, shopping centers or a hospital to shoot unguided rockets into Isreal. I can't see why anyone, other than the people firing the rockets, can blame Isreal for striking back. I don't have the answer to stop any of the aggression in the region but I do think it is going to take thousands of peacekeepers to stop the rocket attacks.

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 9:14 pm ET

Dan – I must salute your posts. The facts which you put forth – The "Professor" won't respond to them.

The Charter of Hamas which both you and I have posted excerpts from – the "Professor" ignores it.

The fact that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, the only nation there which allows virtually complete freedom of speech, religion, womens rights, etc – the Professor ignores it.

He talks about the existence of Israel as "occupation" and is a defender of terrorists. He is simply an anti-Semite masquerading as a propagandist on CNN blogs. What a creature he is!

Debs   January 8th, 2009 9:15 pm ET

Professor,

I am still awaiting on response................

You still have not answred me?

Why are you so scared of people who want peace between Israel and Palestine?

A two state solution is the only way. There people though who want to keep the war going.

Thats sad ,these people dont look at the value of life. They want to waste it on hatred and violence??

Is that what you want for the people of Palestine and Israel?

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 9:16 pm ET

The bottom line:
If terrorist Hamas launches rockets from a school – vaporize the school.
If terrorist Hamas launches rockets from a mosque – blow it to holy hell.
If terrorist Hamas launches rockets from a hospital – level the place.
If terrorist Hamas launches rockets from a university – obliterate it.
If terrorist Hamas launches rockets from an apartment building – mushroom cloud the f-ing place.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 9:17 pm ET

Kevin,
That is not nice. :)

Nick-Canada   January 8th, 2009 9:21 pm ET

Linda
No doubt if you are not a citizen, but live in this country I don't feel you should have the same rights, And we should always be able to exercise ours. Its nuts but these non-citizens have toes, ones most are afraid to step on (media). Maby they are showing us these things so we as a people with a voice aswell say something about this and address it, because our leaders are to afraid to, as to not offend anyone in some way. And really get Jihad pushed into motion.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 9:21 pm ET

UNSC breakthrough being reported
Resolution being reported

Rod   January 8th, 2009 9:21 pm ET

Linda,

Hamas will stop firing rockets if the blockade is stopped and the Israeli incursions and assassination are stopped. They said that million times.

The Blockade is NOT there to prevent Hamas from getting weapons because this is not true. Israel and Egypt search everything that goes through the borders passages, and it is virtually impossible to get weapons through. this is with the exception to the tunnels but you cannot get a tank through tunnels. these tunnels are a way for palestinians to survive, they get some food and supplies through the tunnels.

Getting weapons from egypt is not easy cause the government there is controlling everything and egypt has strong intelligence since they are scared of militants in their country get weapons themselves.

Hamas got their weapons mostly from Israel and the US. these were weapons given to the PA when they were controlling gaza. and these are not the kind of weapons that and army can use to fight an army.
few machine guns and RPGs. they do not even have sophisticated armor piercing equipment. or anti aircraft equipment.

The rockets that they make are small shop kind of rockets and are not sophisticated at all simply a metal tube with wings that has some ball bearings in the head (very primitive). they lack precision simply metalic projectiles and this explains their impact.

It seams that trust is an issue. and everyone is asking who came first the egg or the chicken.

Again this massacre will result in more hatred and will not achieve the long term results that will make the state of Israel safe. it will actually result in more extremism on both sides

The only ones who are losing here are the civilians and peace lovers on both sides.

Jim Bryson   January 8th, 2009 9:22 pm ET

Kevin: I agree with you 110%. Also, put some sort of transponder on the journalist that interview these terrorists and send in a laser guided bomb during the interview. Either use the journalists to target the bad guys or kick them out. A lot of the time they are only helping the enmey learn what the good guys are planning to do or actually doing. They hinder efforts of our soldiers

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 9:23 pm ET

Hamas will stop firing rockets if the blockade is stopped and the Israeli incursions and assassination are stopped. They said that million times.

complete lie

Getting weapons from egypt is not easy cause the government there is controlling everything and egypt has strong intelligence since they are scared of militants in their country get weapons themselves.

wrong, there are threehundred tunnels

Linda   January 8th, 2009 9:23 pm ET

Thank you for your insight Nick-Canada

Nick-Canada   January 8th, 2009 9:25 pm ET

It may sound harsh but in the end I'm with Kevin on the matter, it is the bottom line

Debs   January 8th, 2009 9:28 pm ET

Dan,

Im sorry I missed one of you comments back.

Firstly, I am sorry your father was in the concentration camps.

That, so long ago know should stand as a testement t to what happens when the lack of or should I say the lack of willingness to accept other people for their differences. Maybe because
of fear. I do not really know.

The holocaust will forever be rermebered for that. We humans are supposed to learn from mistakes so it does not happen again, but here we are 60 years later an we still look for an excuse to create wars and kill our neighbours because of a different language or different religion.

Maybe if we stood back and looked at each other, took the time to learn from each other then maybe we will realise that we are not that indifferen to each other.

Shalom

Nick-Canada   January 8th, 2009 9:29 pm ET

Your welcome Linda, nice brief chatt'n with ya, got to go now

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 9:29 pm ET

the disinformation campaign waged here is unbelieveable

example:

"Hamas will stop firing rockets if the blockade is stopped "

when the cease fire started last june, the crossings were opened

on the very first day of the ceasefire rockets were fired from gaza

israel closed the crossings

when no rockets were fired, israel opened the crossings

rockets fired=closed crossings

so what is this bull argument of yours, ROD?????????/

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 9:31 pm ET

Dan – quick correction – there are over 500 tunnels. Linda – I know what I said is "not nice" but unfortunately it is the truth. The Hamas terrorists are "not nice." You see, terrorists don't behave rationally. They only understand brute force, as is the case with Al Quaeda, Hamas, and the Mumbai terrorists. It is a dirty job, but someone's got to do it, and I'm the first to say, BRAVO IDF! You see, if Israel doesn't vaporize this scum -this tactic will be coming soon to a theater near you! They will think they can commit acts of terrorism, then when responded to, accept sympathy for their "human shields" succumbing to collateral damage.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 9:31 pm ET

Rod,
I don't know why you wrote all of that to me, but I assume you want a response.

1)
And Israel says they can't open the boarder because of suicide bombers.
2)
What is Egypt searching? They have closed their border to Gaza also. And if they need food and supplies, why aren't they being given them about ground?
3)
It doesn't matter how big the rockets are, they are terrorizing people. The People of Israel can not have a normal life when they have to keep running into a fall out shelter, or a rocket hits next door. They are intended to kill.\
4)

Debs   January 8th, 2009 9:32 pm ET

Kevin,

Those comments are deplorable!

Killing innocent people of any side will should never be accepted.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 9:34 pm ET

*above* not about ground

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 9:36 pm ET

Debs – I'm sorry if you find it deplorable. But let me be very clear:

The failure to understand – or worse, to understand but not to acknowledge – the fundamental difference between deliberately targeting civilians (Hamas) and accidentally killing civilians in the course of self-defense (Israel) reflects moral obtuseness at best and outright bigotry at worst. It encourages those who deliberately employ the murder of civilians as a means toward achieving “moral equality” with their more humane enemies in the court of public opinion.

Debs   January 8th, 2009 9:36 pm ET

Thanks for discussion Dan and Linda..

Got to go now.

Goodnight
Laila Tov

Salam Aleikum

Salam and Shalom to all

Linda   January 8th, 2009 9:37 pm ET

bye Debs

dan perman   January 8th, 2009 9:42 pm ET

bye debs

till next time

Debs   January 8th, 2009 9:44 pm ET

Kevin,

All do respect,
woul
I am talking about the civilians you would be willing to kill without any due care.

This is precisley the attitude and tactics that will cost the lives of many innocent civililans. If you have any humanity how can you advocate such actions?

Let me put it this way, what if your leaders where doing things you didnt agree with but if you spoke out against them they would hurt you and your family. So your stuck in a sranglehold. Now an international force is dropping bombs on your home because of your leaders?

Would you find that fair?

Debs   January 8th, 2009 9:46 pm ET

Good night all

Sleep well

Bero   January 8th, 2009 9:48 pm ET

What I am talking about Dan, is much more than just Gaza. It's about cutting properties in half by a wall, it's having to get up at three o'clock in the morning to get to work at nine o'clock in Israel and all because you happen to be Palestinian, and it's about the lies the Israeli government are telling about the Palestinians, which people in the West are prepared to believe because it's easier. It was also easier for people to turn a blind eye in the 1930's to what was happening in Germany. What I am talking about is that this is genocide and has been for a long time.

Tal   January 8th, 2009 9:48 pm ET

Terror is the cancer of the world, and unfortunately (or not) most terror groups are made of Extreme Islamics supplied by Iran (and that's a fact).

The western world should stop looking at this as Israel's war, because it just isn't, it's a fight against worldwide terror and against Iran who threatens the western constantly and it's a fight for real democracy.

Western world unite against terror, with all means needed! Don't let terror blow up in your face by surprise, do something beforehand. For the last 5-10 years we have seen a gradual increase of terror in western European countries including England, Spain and Germany. Most of them (and that's also a fact) were set by Extremist Islamics organizations that have absolutely no difference with Hamas nor Hezbollah, they just work in a different place. They are all servers of the axis of evil lead by Iran.

STOP TERROR! PEACE IS THE SOLUTION!

Rod   January 8th, 2009 9:49 pm ET

Debs,
I agree with you.
I have seen your question to Professor. I will not talk for him or anyone else
But i will tell you there are so many israelis and so many arabs who want peace. they all agree with the two state solution, but a fully functional palestinian state and not a big prison that is controlled by authorities which have agendas and people have no freedom, no rights and do not control their borders, sea or air.

The establishment of a Fully functional livable and sustainable Palestinian State will be the solution that will result in a long lasting peace other than that nothing will work.

The notion that Muslims and Jews were fighting for thousands of years, and they will continue to fight is not true. this ignores the Christians who lived there forever. Christians were 20% in the British mandate palestins and over 24% in 1880 now they are only 2%. So the Christians are also cleansed and their rights are ignored. No one talks about them. Just curious why not!

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 9:49 pm ET

Debs – how can you say that I am advocating this "without any due care." There is a binary decision – you either blow up the rocket launchers and the people doing it, or you don't.

In terms of costing the lives of "many innocent civilians" – Debs – it would cost the lives of many more innocent civilians if this is not done. You can't sit back and wait for a missile to fall on a kindergarten in Israel and take out hundreds of innocent children.
Now let me address your last comment about them disagreeing with Hamas leadership – they voted Hamas into power. The Hamas charter calls for indiscriminate violence. Hamas literature PROUDLY advocates the use of human shields. So they knew what they were getting into when they voted Hamas in.

Let me put it to you this way:
If I voted for someone that ran on a platform of using me as a human shield, I'd be a fool to expect different treatment when that person was voted into office!

Nona   January 8th, 2009 10:05 pm ET

Kevin, I do not agree with your flaming comments and your incindiary remarks, but whenever you comment using your knowledge and your grasp of the objective facts of the situation, you're dead-on 100% correct. Your last post is a great example.

You have a thorough intellectual grasp of the situation and excellent knowledge about it that really comes through when you push put the anger and emotional stuff to the side.

I mean this as a compliment - I hope my remarks are taken in the spirit intended.

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 10:06 pm ET

Nona – good point, well-spoken, and thank you for the compliment and constructive criticism.

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 10:11 pm ET

Nona – when confronted with flaming Hamas defenders and terrorist apologists such as the anti-Semite masquerading as "Professor" or other propagandists such as "CS" or "Hunk" who propagate lies – it is imperative to shoot them down with facts and truth. Unfortunately, I let emotions get the better of me a few times. However, when confronted with reality and facts, these scoundrels have a perfect track record of running away, unresponsive and unable to justify anything they assert.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 10:14 pm ET

Kevin,
I know how it can be, I lost my cool last night with someone. None of us are perfect.
I just keep trying to do better, and you, my friend, are doing very well.

Rike   January 8th, 2009 10:16 pm ET

Glad one can tell the parents of slain children in Gaza that it was done only accidentally and with moral justification.Do you have children? I think not.

Rike   January 8th, 2009 10:19 pm ET

P.S. Sorry, forgot to say, that´s my answer to Kevin.

Linda   January 8th, 2009 10:22 pm ET

Well, all, I'm out of here. I think I'll get a nap! Whew, I am so busy. Have a great discussion!

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 10:29 pm ET

Let me give a lesson to everyone in Hamas 101.

Its charter, adopted in August 1988, is even more extremist and overtly anti_semitic than the PLO charter. It calls for the "reinstitution of the Muslim state" in "every inch of Palestine" and the raising of the "banner of Allah" over all of Palestine which it described as an "Islamic Waqf." It proclaims that any compromise, even if every Arab and Palestinian leader were to accept it, would be in violation of Islamic law. All peace initiatives or "so called peaceful solutions are contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement." And "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion." It proclaims that neither Jews nor Christians, who it characterized collectively as "the unbelievers" can be trusted, and declares "There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad."
The charter then becomes overtly and crudely anti-Semitic in describing the "Nazism of the Jews" and claiming that "Israel, by virtue of it being Jewish and having a Jewish population, defiled Islam and the Muslims." It falsely claims that "when the Jews occupied Holy Jerusalem in 1967,...they shouted with joy, 'Muhammed is dead, he left daughters behind,'" implying that the Jews want to rape Muslim women and girls. It then invokes the anti_Semitic czarist forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and argues that their "present conduct is the best proof of what is said there (in the Protocols).
The Hamas Charter also blames the Jews for the French and RUssian Revolutions, World Wars I and II, and the creation of the United Nations "in order to rule over the world." Calling the arrival of Jewish refugees in Palestine "this despicable Nazi-Tartar invasion" the charter – in a burst of irrationality exceeding even that which came previously – then casts some of the blame on "the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs and "other secret organizations which act for the interests of Zionism and under its directions strive to demolish societies" and to distribute "drugs and toxics of all kinds in order to facilitate its control and expansion." The Charter ends by demanding that all Muslims resist this Crusade by "Jews, the merchants of war," as they resisted the Christian Crusades. Describing Judaism as a "false and falsified faith," it confidently predicts victory over the "Nazi Zionists."
Then it condemns Egypt for making peace with Israel and condemns the PLO for "adopting secular thought" and advocating secular solutions. Only a purely Islamic state, with no Jews, and all Christian Arabs in a subordinate status, would be acceptable to Hamas.

dominique   January 8th, 2009 10:30 pm ET

?

dominique   January 8th, 2009 10:31 pm ET

Kevin, for the love of god, watch this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

Rod   January 8th, 2009 10:31 pm ET

8 Jan. '09: Army must allow evacuation of wounded and trapped civilians
In the last few hours, B'Tselem learned of civilians who are trapped in the following places in the Gaza Strip, all under the army’s control:

Al-Siafa, northern Gaza Strip (near the ruins of the Dugit settlement). Members of the Abu-Halima family living there told B'Tselem that they left several dead bodies in the area. Additionally, they said two disabled residents unable to walk are alone in two houses in the neighborhood.

A-Zeitun, in the southeast section of Gaza City, there are at least two compounds in which civilians are trapped, and bodies of the dead have not been removed.

Nona   January 8th, 2009 10:32 pm ET

You are right, Kevin. I find that those who sympathize most with the terrorists are thos who tend to behave the most like terrorists on these boards - lots of vitriol and aggression, but not must intellectual substance when asked to deliver facts rather than dogma.

dominique   January 8th, 2009 10:33 pm ET

If we don t know more of the history we will never understand all of is going on there, and we just wont resolve it.

This documentary is the best explaination of the historical reasons of this pb I have seen so far...

Give it the time, watch it and you might see things a bit differently... at least I did

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

Rod   January 8th, 2009 10:33 pm ET

-a-Samuni family compound: yesterday, the Red Cross evacuated fifteen injured persons belonging to the family. An unknown number of bodies remain in the compound. B'Tselem took the telephone testimony of Meysa a-Samuni, 19, who described the chronology of events, in which many members of her family were killed. To read her testimony click here.

-al-Mughrabi family compound: according to a member of the family who was in telephone contact with B'Tselem, some eighty members of the family are trapped in the compound, without food and water. One member of the family has been killed, and his body remains in the compound.

B'Tselem also received reports of civilians trapped in ‘Abd Rabbo, east of Jabalya.
B'Tselem demands that the army immediately allow ambulances to evacuate the dead and wounded and to enable civilians to be freed from areas under its control.

Samer   January 8th, 2009 10:34 pm ET

if this is not war crime then what is? is it not enough that over 700 palestinian were killed? now the other 3000+ have to die for the world to understand that this is not right?

Can not the IDF see or read the RED CROSS, UN, UNRWA, AMBELANCE Signs?

Seriously if this is not a war crime then what is?

dominique   January 8th, 2009 10:35 pm ET

Kevin and Nona,
let me know what you guys think of it, or if you think it s mostly lies, and in that case if you know another one that might more accurately explain these things... But please do not say before you finish watching it...(sorry I know it s a longer one...)

dominique   January 8th, 2009 10:36 pm ET

Really guys, all of you, I would love opinions on this documentary....

Good or bad...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

Rod   January 8th, 2009 10:37 pm ET

Humanitarian Update, January 8, 2009
[Print]

HEALTH
· IDF operations prevent ambulances from safely evacuating the wounded causing the injured to be stranded without medical care.
· Limited resources prevent the chronically ill from being treated.
· Coordination of emergency evacuations delayed or not functioning.
· Hospitals stretched to breaking point: Overflow of wounded cannot be
transferred to external medical centers.
· Distribution of medical supplies in jeopardy

WATER, SEWAGE & ELECTRICITY
· More than half a million people cut off from water supply
· One million people without electricity
· More than 65% of Gaza's electricity supply cut off
· Sewage flooding the streets
· Power plant closed since December 30 (no coordination for repairs)

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 10:37 pm ET

Dominique – Shut up you hypocrite:
The double standards in this world never seize to amaze me. That emotional rubbish is absolutely stunning. I have never seen this hatred spewed against Israel anywhere else! You are outraged, sickened, tormented and I don’t know what else by what you see on the TV and on the internet. You are crying and your hearts are breaking when you see women and children dying in Gaza.
My question is, did you cry one tear about the 800,000 people; yes eight hundred thousand people, who were murdered by Islamists in Darfur. Did you whine and shed one tear, when the Islamists systematically starved thousands of children and their mothers to death? Were you outraged when these Islamist, friends of Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda, gunned down thousands of unarmed men, women and children and left their bodies to rot in the desert? Did you want to protest against the government in Sudan, get people to disinvest in Sudan and their friends? Is it because it happened in Africa? Is it ok for Islamists to murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people but you want to condemn the Israelis for the death of innocent people being used as human shields by your brave Hamas fighters? Is it ok because you didn’t see it on TV? You make me sick!

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 10:41 pm ET

Rod – Samer:
The failure to understand – or worse, to understand but not to acknowledge – the fundamental difference between deliberately targeting civilians (Hamas) and accidentally killing civilians in the course of self-defense (Israel) reflects moral obtuseness at best and outright bigotry at worst. It encourages those who deliberately employ the murder of civilians as a means toward achieving “moral equality” with their more humane enemies in the court of public opinion.
You claim that those in Gaza have no electricity, shelter, food, etc – but they have no shortage of rockets. What those people should do is replace their government with one that actually cares about advancing its people beyond the status of “human shields” – that would be appropriate. If Israel wanted to deliberately target Palestinians in the most densely populated area on Earth – shitloads more would be killed – it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. The fact that a few hundred are dead in a 13 day operation is frankly proof that the opposite is happening.

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 10:42 pm ET

No one wants to defend the Hamas Charter huh? Here it is, in all its "glory" – what I said above is completely verifiable here:

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

And these animals are claiming to be "victimized?"

Rod   January 8th, 2009 10:43 pm ET

Dominique,

Very Very nice and well made video won lots of awards and we never heard of it.

Keep posting it at least the warmongers might be exposed and there Falsification of the truth about the roots of the conflict might be revealed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

Posted it again to support your mission of informing those who do not know.

I am sure it will not change those who have no respect for human life. but it will at least make normal people think

dominique   January 8th, 2009 10:43 pm ET

????? wow, Kevin, I thought we were having a civilized discussion.

Why would I be a hypocrite, do you know me?

I asked for opinion or a documentary that is award winning...

Maybe you are too close minded.... or had your brain washed by some kind of propaganda... You obviously did not watch more than 30 sec of the docum... and obviously already are set...

Well closemindedness never resolved anything...
Why do you talk of Darfour?? has nothing to do with the documentary I sent you....I am appauled by what happenned there.. never denied it...

You are attacking me for no reason... I thnk YOU are the Sick one

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 10:45 pm ET

Yeah Rod – an apologist for Hamas. What a great person you are. Why don't you read the Hamas Charter? You should keep posting it as well so there is no "falsification" of the truth about the roots of the conflict.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Let me give a lesson to everyone in Hamas 101.

Its charter, adopted in August 1988, is even more extremist and overtly anti-Semitic than the PLO charter. It calls for the "reinstitution of the Muslim state" in "every inch of Palestine" and the raising of the "banner of Allah" over all of Palestine which it described as an "Islamic Waqf." It proclaims that any compromise, even if every Arab and Palestinian leader were to accept it, would be in violation of Islamic law. All peace initiatives or "so called peaceful solutions are contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement." And "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion." It proclaims that neither Jews nor Christians, who it characterized collectively as "the unbelievers" can be trusted, and declares "There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad."
The charter then becomes overtly and crudely anti-Semitic in describing the "Nazism of the Jews" and claiming that "Israel, by virtue of it being Jewish and having a Jewish population, defiled Islam and the Muslims." It falsely claims that "when the Jews occupied Holy Jerusalem in 1967,...they shouted with joy, 'Muhammed is dead, he left daughters behind,'" implying that the Jews want to rape Muslim women and girls. It then invokes the anti-Semitic czarist forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and argues that their "present conduct is the best proof of what is said there (in the Protocols)."
The Hamas Charter also blames the Jews for the French and Russian Revolutions, World Wars I and II, and the creation of the United Nations "in order to rule over the world." Calling the arrival of Jewish refugees in Palestine "this despicable Nazi-Tartar invasion" the charter – in a burst of irrationality exceeding even that which came previously – then casts some of the blame on "the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs and "other secret organizations which act for the interests of Zionism and under its directions strive to demolish societies" and to distribute "drugs and toxics of all kinds in order to facilitate its control and expansion." The Charter ends by demanding that all Muslims resist this Crusade by "Jews, the merchants of war," as they resisted the Christian Crusades. Describing Judaism as a "false and falsified faith," it confidently predicts victory over the "Nazi Zionists."
The Charter also condemns Egypt for making peace with Israel and condemns the PLO for "adopting secular thought" and advocating secular solutions. Only a purely Islamic state, with no Jews, and all Christian Arabs in a subordinate status, would be acceptable to Hamas.

Nona   January 8th, 2009 10:47 pm ET

Dominique, what part of Islamic Terrorist regime do you not understand? It is impossible to side with Hamas and to be against al-Qaeda; you cannot side with Hamas and be against the Taliban; you cannot side with Hamas and be against the Iranian ayatollahs. It's the same thing, and they all want to kill you unless you're a Muslim, and then, only if you're the kind of Muslim who meets their standards of worthiness.

That's not to say that the Palestinian people are not worthy of sympathy. Of course they are! Palestinians have suffered greatly. But don't make the naive assumption that supporting Hamas is the same as supporting the Palestinian people.

You do understand that the goal of Hamas is not to find a peaceful solution, but to eliminate and destroy the state of Israel, right?

Article 13 of Hamas Charter - Peaceful Solutions, Initiaves and International Conferences:

Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:
Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow – verse 120).

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors ...

dominique   January 8th, 2009 10:47 pm ET

Ad if you have a historical one to explain and say otherwise, please share...

Or maybe , you want like some to erase that part from history...

By the way, most of the people speaking in that documentary are israelis....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 10:50 pm ET

Dominique – it is irrelevant that the people are Israelis in the documentary. Try to follow this:
It is a fundamental fallacy to conclude that one side of a dispute must be right if some people who are ethnically identified with that side support the other side. For example, the fact that there is a handful of Jewish Holocaust deniers does not mean that the Holocaust did not occur. Nor does the fact that some Italian Jews supported Mussolini in the early 1930s prove that fascism was right. Yet a staple of pro-Palestinian propaganda is the argument that is structured as follows: “See, even a Jew like [fill in the name] believes that Israel is wrong and the Palestinians are right about [fill in the issue].” This argument by “ethnic admission” is both logically and empirically fallacious.

Rod   January 8th, 2009 10:51 pm ET

Kevin,

Were you one of those Israelis or Israel Supporters who wanted to Nuke Gaza?
if you are, that tell much about the regard you have to human life if you are against killings then we can go into an educated discussion.

There are Radicals in Israel and who are far worse than Hamas and their charter is out there.

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 10:52 pm ET

Nona – once again, I compliment you on your excellent response.

dominique   January 8th, 2009 10:52 pm ET

Nona,
It s not about taking sides here.... like the bad muslims, because they share the religion of al qaeda, or even hamas... To tell you the thruth I do not like or support any of them...
Taking sides broadly, is dangerous and stupid... you are like saying all 1.5 billion muslims are bad let s kill them all....who is next....
It brings fight, no way to peace.

Understandings others is the 1st part in the path to piece....

IRA in ireland, was a terrorist organization
Nelson mandella was until recently listed as terrorist by the US...

These people can t all be bad in nature... come on...remove your blinds and try to understand....

dominique   January 8th, 2009 10:55 pm ET

And I am not saying Hamas is right, nor support rockets launching....

Just trying to understand what is going on, not jutifying it....

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 10:55 pm ET

Rod – one can be against killings, but sometimes they are a necessary factor in preventing further deaths. Allow me to elaborate:
It would cost the lives of many more innocent civilians if this is not done. You can’t sit back and wait for a missile to fall on a kindergarten in Israel and take out hundreds of innocent children.
The Hamas charter calls for indiscriminate violence. Hamas literature PROUDLY advocates the use of human shields. War is a bloody endeavor. One can respect human life (unlike Hamas) yet want to end it swiftly and justly.

dominique   January 8th, 2009 10:57 pm ET

Kevin,

You need to forget about sides.....
understand the problem by listenning to everyone with the SAME ATTENTION...

Taking broad sides takes nowhere....

You certainly did not watch the documentary...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

Take the time to watch it and convince me, please...

Nona   January 8th, 2009 10:58 pm ET

Hamas even finds the Rotary Club and Freemasons to be enemies of Palestine:

Hamas Charter, Article 17 – The Role of The Moslem Woman

The Moslem woman has a role no less important than that of the moslem man in the battle of liberation. She is the maker of men. Her role in guiding and educating the new generations is great. The enemies have realised the importance of her role. They consider that if they are able to direct and bring her up they way they wish, far from Islam, they would have won the battle. That is why you find them giving these attempts constant attention through information campaigns, films, and the school curriculum, using for that purpose their lackeys who are infiltrated through Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, which are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. These organizations have ample resources that enable them to play their role in societies for the purpose of achieving the Zionist targets and to deepen the concepts that would serve the enemy. These organizations operate in the absence of Islam and its estrangement among its people. The Islamic peoples should perform their role in confronting the conspiracies of these saboteurs. The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated.

dominique   January 8th, 2009 11:02 pm ET

Same for you nona, give the same attention to both sides then you might understand some more...

Nona   January 8th, 2009 11:03 pm ET

Dominique, I will watch your video. It is over an hour long, and I can't watch it all right this minute, but as soon as I can I will. Then we can discuss.

Nona   January 8th, 2009 11:03 pm ET

Same for you, Dominique. Give the same attention to both sides, OK?

Akiva   January 8th, 2009 11:04 pm ET

Is it true that hamas got a lot more weapons from israel it self then by egypt?
can this be true?
actualy i dont know and am not so sure ... but i think we have to watch out for this!!!!

if it is true how it comes that israel give hiden support to hamas?
is it to force some reasons to do this genocide?
only to occupie this poor weak and hlpless state Gaza?
only go legitimate israelian imperialism?

i ask and i think we should watch out for this!!!

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 11:05 pm ET

Please stop quoting. I've heard of the violence written, but don't really want to read it. It makes me queasy. I cannot understand such a lust for blood. God creates. Destruction destroys.

Rod   January 8th, 2009 11:07 pm ET

Kevin, I am not a "Hamas Apologist" as you say
I am an Ashamed Jew and so you should be.
Otherwise As you painted me with something I can say you are a Racist and Extremist Israeli or a pro-Israeli who loves blood and cannot get enough blood.
Anyway I hope you are not.

the operation that killed over 700 Palestinians and injured over 3500 people mostly civilians is not an operation that i will be proud of and Hope that there are people out there who resent and condemn killing civilians.

I read the Hamas Charter. they are irrelevant, they know and you know they cannot "destroy Israel" .

The problem is with people who are showing the real face of the Israeli Extremism and those who are doing this massacre in Gaza
based on hatred not as they claim self defense.

Akiva   January 8th, 2009 11:10 pm ET

coool
Israel is so correct
israel recpect human rights !!!
israel respect international law!!!!
israel never lie to us!!!!
and israel bomb human aid by different organisations
thats totaly aloved by international human rights!!
thats totaly conform to human rights!!!
totaly clear israel only speak the truth !!!!!!!!

Bero   January 8th, 2009 11:12 pm ET

Would love to know who you are all working for?

Rod   January 8th, 2009 11:14 pm ET

Nona and Others,

Just watch The Video. ( you can watch it over few days which i did).

I do not say you have to change your opinions but think about what people go under occupation then judge for yourself. if you were a palestinian woman or a child, just think.

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 11:14 pm ET

I am sad that so many mourn for the Gaza people, but ignore the hundreds of thousands slaughtered in Darfur. Odd. I am amazed that rockets from Gaza into Israel are okay, let them shoot 11,000 into the USA, but attacking back is not. There would be less blood shed if the soldiers firing those 11,000 faced out on battlefields rather than hiding in urban areas. If Hamas is attacking, sending missiles, how are their articles not important?

Nona   January 8th, 2009 11:18 pm ET

Sorry, GLeigh. I become very alarmed that people equate Hamas with the Palestinian people. The Palestinian people are worthy of sympathy and entitled to live a homeland of their own with dignity and the opportunity to prosper and thrive. So are the Israeli people. But Hamas is a radical Islamic terrorist organization, and there's no question about unless you happen to buy into the legitimacy of suicide attacks and hijackings.

I also become alarmed by people who started paying attention to this 60-year-old quagmire two weeks ago and are suddenly authorities. They see horrible, horrifying, heartbreaking pictures of dead and injured Palestinian children and automatically assume that the brutal and vengeful Jews of Israel and satisfying their thirst for blood against poor innocent victims who did nothing to provoke a military attack. THAT'S UNFAIR TOO.

No single side could possibly bear the sole responsibility for a conflict this bloody and this prolonged - over 60 years now! Even a person who isn't familiar with the intricacies of this conflict can figure that out as long as they have at least a smattering of common sense.

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 11:18 pm ET

Niether side is lilly white. Leave Israel alone. Let Gaza get unbiased UN monitors and stay away from Israel. Does anyone want this – peace? Doesn't sound like it. I think Hamas wanted civilians injured to gain world sympathy. There are men in my family. I'm female. They would protect me, with their lives.

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 11:22 pm ET

Excellent Nona. No one gains here except those wanting to destroy. The people of Gaza deserve the right to a peaceful, happy life. I know the Hamas must terrify them as much as they do Israel, but all people should be able to live, happily. Why not leave Gaza and Israel alone, separate them, and let them live, work, produce, support themselves as all humans have the right to do, and have their children in peace.

Rod   January 8th, 2009 11:23 pm ET

Gleigh
we are against the genocide in Darfur. I am not sure about your numbers though but to me one life to me is too much too many.
you forgot Kongo too ( over Five million people killed) , you forgot Iraq (1.2 Million), you forgot Afghanistan and the list can go on.

But just one comment on Darfur. Darfur became important because there is a competition between the US and China on the area that is rich with oil and natural resources. Again this does not justify the killing.

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 11:24 pm ET

The fanatics of the world mess it up for everyone else. Move on people. Try to play nice together. Israel exists.

Rod   January 8th, 2009 11:26 pm ET

GLeigh
For a better understanding of the conflict watch the video Dominique posts it is an excellent one.
then judge for yourself

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 11:26 pm ET

Rod – I'm in the USA. No one here likes oil much. We have coal out the kazoo and a lot of natural gas and a lot of other stuff. I agree, oil isn't worth it.

Rod   January 8th, 2009 11:27 pm ET

ok guys gotta go
nice talk to you all
Bye

barham   January 8th, 2009 11:27 pm ET

Linda, UN proposals are not proposals written by employees working in UN, any country in the world can write a proposal, and ask for the council to gather and vote for it! so you can right any ever silly thing and send it there, then voting by members is what matters, as you know, you have the right to say what you want, that doesnt include the right to be taken seriously, though the first proposal called for cease fire from both sides as I remember. i just wonder if you are thinking maybe UN is biased with Palestinian because both have a business together? mutual interests maybe? maybe UN is also interested in blowing up the world? hmm that would make sense? And you and Israelis are the only humanitarians in the world for the kills you do casually?

Dan, i know its not about proportionalties and numbers when it comes to lives, a loss in a life is always immeasurable causality, numbers are just given for statistics, but so i rephrase, I'm against Hamas for killing Israelis, are you against IDF for killing Palestinians?

Cubfan, sadly the core of IDF was built by a previous group of terrorists (historical fact) so the only solution they almost can think have for any problem is just killing people, 800 life in a week does not matter to them, no thank you but i personally dont consider acts of terrorism a good solution for problems, do you? and you mentioned USA and Japan, i would be somehow shamed to think that two nuclear bombs on two cities full of civilians was a good solution from your point of view. But for a terrorist it sounds a good solution so you have a point.

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 11:28 pm ET

Rod – Honestly, I don't watch videos. They tend to be one sided, not balanced. Again, neither iside s lilly white. Let both exist, apart from each other.

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 11:33 pm ET

I feel like I've taken a crash course in Israel – Gaza 101. How can these two not agree to let mediators mediate and live in peace without any missiles and bombs? Why not co-exist? Is the goal to destroy only? Gaza should produce, sell to the world market through Egypt and other neighbors and leave Israel alone. That means Hamas. Israel should produce, sell to the world market through the U.S. or whoever, not read any of this stuff, and leave Gaza alone. It's not that tough a deal.

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 11:35 pm ET

Bye Rod. We'll miss ya.

Rod   January 8th, 2009 11:36 pm ET

Gleigh this video is a documentary and very informative the ones in it are mostly Israelis and jews who are university professors, human rights activists and people who have been touched by the atrocities of the occupation. it is not a propaganda video at all.
it is worth watching just as a human it is not to shape an opinion or anything.
anyway it is your decision but when watched it I was much more informed. this is why i suggested that you see it.
I am a jew myself and I wanted to see what happens on the other side.
it is very informative and gives answers to some of the questions you posted and you may have.

Rod   January 8th, 2009 11:38 pm ET

GLeigh,
I will miss you too.
the video my answer your last question. just watch it and then lets talk it will clarify many of the things that are happening and it is really more of a fair Israeli prospective of what is happening than an arab prospective
Yall Take care

mahmoud jboor   January 8th, 2009 11:39 pm ET

israel with military might will not sucseed....two aid worker killed longlive civilizatioh....!!!!! ....upto date : 767 killed almost half children & women !!...Rice what agreat legacy you left behind ,but please dont tell me you will be academic again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Akiva   January 8th, 2009 11:41 pm ET

is israel forcing a new world war?
i don't know?

it seems israel is mor interested in genocide and slaughterin then use precise hightech weapons precise
they spread uncontrolable bombs over Gaza so that it is clear that civilians must die!
they use massdestruction weapons against a fiew hamas!
they can acces satelite pictures to targt the hamas but they cant find them, so its clear that they must bomb all this civilians
we all cant compare israel with hamas which cant acces satelite pictures and still send handmade rockets precisely into israelian buildings!!
this war is very fair !!!
we only must look at the pictures
hamas are so bad they send handmad rockets to israel and do little holes in buildigs, they destroy computers and TVs ... and the poor israelians have to buy new one!!!
thy are so much more woerse then the israelians which bomb whole Gaza with hightech massdestruction weapons and destroy with one bomd multible house to total ruines so that this very rich Gazan's have to go and buy theyr new whole inventory which in most cases not more then a bd ans dome little things more!
israel is so proportional so correct they cant be wrong!!!
because we all know israel is so poor and they have only acces to hightech and satelite and mossad and so on !!!
israel is more then only correct!
they are choosen by God!!!
the god which say killing is bad murderer wil go to hell!!!
there cant be more reasons that we all should support israel as the USA is doing by money and weaponery!

GLeigh   January 8th, 2009 11:43 pm ET

Videos and documentaries can be skewed (filmed) to show a certain side. The meaning of a story depends on how you tell it. History is never totally accurate because it relies upon the teller of it. I read numbers, statistics, percentages mostly. Eight years and over 11,000 missiles tells me something. Not everything. The images of people willing to kill themselves, along with innocent others, tells me the value of human life. Life is valuable to me. My husband wants his desk. I'm leaving so that he can be here. I know this chatter doesn't change anything. Destroyers destroy. I just hope that one day Israel and the Palestinians have peace, together. God is higher than our mundane bickering.

Jonas   January 8th, 2009 11:48 pm ET

What would it take to make people understand that Hamas is an integral part of the international Islamic terrorist network? What would it take for people to understand that all these terrorist groups, including Hamas, are intent on turning the world into an Islamic republic with Sharia Law as the only law? What would it take for people to understand that these Islamic terrorists are not interested in peace and would gladly murder anyone in their quest to obtain their goal? What would it take for people to understand that it is the stated aim of Islamic terrorists to rid the world of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and all other religions that don't bow down to their extremist Islamic beliefs, including moderate Muslims? What would it take for people to understand that there will never be peace in the world until every single Islamic terrorist is wiped from the face of the earth? These people are brainwashed, impossible to reason with and only understand one thing, violence! People are asking why some Arab states are slow in supporting Hamas and the people in Palestine? It because they know that, as moderate Muslims, their own existence is under threat from the Islamic extremists, and that if Israel wiped out Hamas, it would be one less bunch of terrorists to worry about.

American Jew   January 8th, 2009 11:51 pm ET

Hi Folks,
I like to begin my posts with either an Israeli or Palestinian perspective.

This past week has been Israelis. Today, I start with a Palestinian perspective:

I just got hold of this book that presents the revolutionary idea of a one-state solution. This man draws on the post chaos of both Ireland and South Africa.

From the introduction of ‘One Country,’ book by Ali Abunimah, Palestinani-American, and son of 1948 Paestinian refugees (page 10):

“…The fact is that today there two communities (Israeli and Palestinian) who have a right to life, freedom, and absolute equality no matter what happened in the past or continues to happen in the present. If we start from this premise, reconciliation becomes conceivable, even possible."

Its a HUMAN rights issue–on BOTH sides.

American Jew   January 8th, 2009 11:52 pm ET

Have you heard of this book, Rod or anyone?

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 11:53 pm ET

THANK YOU JONAS!!!! Do people expect the United States to have tea-and-biscuits with Al-Quaeda and Osama bin Laden and "agree to co-exist"?

Bill   January 8th, 2009 11:57 pm ET

Until Islam recognizes Israel's right to exist, they will continue to attack Israel. Israel will continue to defend itself, sometimes vigorously, and there will be bloodshed. The conflict can end only when Muslims love their children more that they blindly hate Israel. Today, everything I read shows that Muslims believe in poisoning the minds of their children to hate Christians and Jews, almost from birth. I see no such indoctrination on the side of the Jews and Christians who teach tolerance and understanding.

This is not meant to offend anyone or to take sides. It is just an observation from someone who is not a Jew or a Muslim.

Why do Muslims allow the minds of their children to be poisoned in this way? Don't they love their children? Don't they want them to have the best life possible, not one of perpetual war and conflict?

Why not educate children in respect and tolerance for others who are different? Why not offer them a decent education that allows them to non-violently support the cause of their people? Why not teach them that throwing stones at armed police and soldiers is not a good way to grow up? Why not teach them that suicide bombings and rocket launchings at civilians have never benefited anyone? There is no glory in wasting the life that God has created. Revenge accomplishes nothing more than inciting your enemy to hit you harder next time. Why bother?

We have to break this mindset of teaching evil to children. Even if we can't save our generation, it doesn't mean we need to sacrifice all future generations to follow in our misguided footsteps.Teach peace, love, respect, and tolerance to the children, and the gross evil we see will eventually die out. If we fail in this task, mankind is in trouble.

Kevin   January 8th, 2009 11:58 pm ET

"American Jew" I agree. Israel has always wanted a 2-state peaceful solution. In fact, they have been the only nation in modern history to offer land seized in a defensive war to obtain peace, just as they did with Egypt and Jordan. But Hamas doesn't want peace. Let me quote from their Charter:

It proclaims that any compromise, even if every Arab and Palestinian leader were to accept it, would be in violation of Islamic law. All peace initiatives or "so called peaceful solutions are contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement." And "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion." It proclaims that neither Jews nor Christians, who it characterized collectively as "the unbelievers" can be trusted, and declares "There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad."

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 12:02 am ET

Bill – AMEN!!! The fundamental problem in the way of peace is the fact that the Palestinian leadership places a higher priority on the destruction of Israel than the establishment of a Palestinian state that would coexist peacefully. As Alan Dershowitz has stated in the past, "They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity" – referring to the fact that a peaceful 2-state solution was offered to them in 1937, 1947, and 2000-2001. Unfortunately, each time they simply responded by attacking and declaring more wars on Israel.
They provoke with rockets, bombs, and suicide bombers. Then when Israel responds they cry out for sympathy. It is a tactic that was well-used by Arafat, and now modified by Hamas.

American Jew   January 9th, 2009 12:05 am ET

Kevin,
The Palestinian people are not all Hamas. Please do not make blanket statements about Muslims, Arabs and Palestinians.

One can see extremists teachings in ALL cultures–Jewish, Cristian, and yes in the USA, too, but that does not mean it is the dominant way–anywhere.

American Jew   January 9th, 2009 12:08 am ET

You'll find fundamentalists everywhere. This does not justify the hatred and violence that is happening right now on both sides.

If you ask me, the Israeli govt is being driven by fundamentalist values of its own...

And see what is happening??

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 12:11 am ET

My husband saw the blog and gave me his desk. I agree Bill. That's the problem pretty much in a nutshell. Hate has to stop being taught, but it has for generations and generations and generations....

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 12:13 am ET

American Jew – I never claimed Palestinian people are all Hamas. I'm stating that the Palestinian leadership, from the PLO all the way to Hamas places a higher priority on the destruction of Israel than the establishment of a Palestinian state that would coexist peacefully. Hamas is just more vitriolic and hateful. What about that is a blanket statement about Muslims, Arabs, and Palestinians? The Palestinian people are victims of their own leadership, which is the real tragedy. Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia told Arafat when he walked out and rejected peace in 2000-2001 that he was committing a crime against the Palestinian people.

Bero   January 9th, 2009 12:15 am ET

So, the Cia and the Mossad are trying to win the propanganda war. Good luck to them; they probably will because they are much more powerful than the Palestinians, and the rest of the Arab countries don't really give a damn about the Palestinians. But the outcome of this media war does not change the fact that this is an unequal war and that there is a ratio of 700-1 deaths in this war. Why is it that the weakest are always the terrorists?

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 12:16 am ET

And "American Jew" – you state that the Israeli govt is being "driven by fundamentalist values of its own..."
Well, let's examine that:
Israel’s record on human rights is among the best in the world, especially among nations that have confronted comparable threats. Israel has the only independent judiciary in the entire Middle East and has one of the most highly regarded Supreme Courts in the world. It is the only court in the Middle East from which an Arab or a Muslim can expect justice, as many have in winning dozens of victories against the Israeli government, the Israeli military, and Israeli citizens. I challenge you to name a court in any other Arab or Muslim country that is comparable to the Israeli Supreme Court. Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East and the only country that has virtually unlimited freedom of speech. Its media are generally very critical of its government, Any person in Israel – whether Jewish, Muslim, or Christian – can criticize the Israeli government or its leaders. No citizen of any other Mediterranean state or Muslim state can do that without fear of imprisonment or death. Nor can Palestinians openly criticize their leaders without fear of reprisal. As Arafat famously threatened the Mayor of Bethlehem, after the mayor had proposed a truce that would have halted Palestinian terrorism: “Whoever thinks of stopping the Intifada before it achieves its goal, I will give him 10 bullets in the chest.” Arafat first denied making such a statement, and then when our State Department produced a tape recording, Arafat denied it was a threat. Finally, when Arab translators said it could have no other meaning, Arafat denied that it was directed at the mayor but rather at himself! The mayor of Bethlehem had no difficulty understanding what Arafat was saying – he immediately withdrew his proposal for a truce.
There is more gender, religious, sexual orientation, and ethnic equality in Israel than in any other Mideastern or Muslim country. The rights of women, gays, and others are more fully recognized and implemented in Israel than anywhere in the Arab world.

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 12:20 am ET

Oh – Bero – so Israel should apologize for not having the Hamas rockets kill more Israelis? So they should feel ashamed that a Kassam hasn't killed more innocent Israelis? Is that your definition of proportionality – that only a handful of Israelis have died in the thousands of rockets that have showered into Israeli cities over the last 5 years?

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 12:20 am ET

Bero – I live in the USA. Now is someone sent 11,000 missiles into my country, into my state and town, I would demand that my army do something. If a concrete arch had to built over my kids' school so a missile "might" not kill them, I would really demand it. I saw pictures of that in Israel this morning. Perhaps the people of Gaza are to be pitied. The Hamas, the real enemies, lob missiles at Israel and hide themselves and their weapson in the urban midst of them. Then when Israel does try to destroy the missiles and those same urban people are hurt, the Hamas wants world pity to further their cause. That is a horrible way to use the children of your own country. I can only guess that the people of Gaza are scared of the Hamas. I would be. Maybe.

Nona   January 9th, 2009 12:21 am ET

Jonas, Kevin, Bill - AMEN!

AJ - I for one understand completely that the Palestinian people are not all Hamas. However, this current conflict over the last two weeks is 100% against Hamas and not the Palestinian people. Unfortunately, Hamas if very happy to put the Palestinian people in its crosshairs.

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 12:22 am ET

Bero – one thing we can agree on though, Hamas is the weakest. It is a pretty weak and dreadful characteristic of human nature to use civilians as "human shields" and take pride in that. It is pretty weak to teach children to dream of the day when they can grow up to strap on a suicide bomb and blow themselves up along with others. It is pretty weak to teach the goal of the destruction of Israel.

Yes, I think we can agree on that. Hamas is the weakest. And they are terrorists. Just read their charter (post is above).

Nona   January 9th, 2009 12:23 am ET

Bero, I don't think the weakest are always the terrorists at all.

However, I do think it's the ignorant who are always the loudest.

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 12:23 am ET

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/20091585448204690.html

i quote a comment from there...
"P. J. Casey
United States 05/01/2009

Gaza

The most dependable source of television news in America is BBC. CNN International is very good, but hard to get in the U.S. ........."

is that true?
is US CNN not the same as international CNN?

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 12:25 am ET

Akiva – yes that is true. CNN International is actually a separate network than CNN.

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 12:27 am ET

Nona – you kick ass.

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 12:28 am ET

CNN is on 24/7 here. I listen to the news, but I study numbers and history too. Not a lot. Enough.

Old soldier   January 9th, 2009 12:30 am ET

I shall attempt to keep this as simple as possible. Anyone who thinks this is about them your probably correct. Think on that for a minute before proving my point.

It is obvious a very limited number here have actually been anywhere near combat.

1. Shooting missile's at civilian targets is absolutely wrong from any stand point this must stop.

2. Responding with bigger better weapons killing even more civilian's is at least as bad.

3. Shell a school with women and children in it! Only the morally bankrupt would even consider such an act. The men I served with for over 21 years would have died before committing such an act.

4. Whoever killed the UN workers (UN now says IDF) hell is to nice for you.

5. Solution lets just kill them all. I can give you some names from recent and ancient history that thought this was a good idea also. One group and their methods have even come up here. Thankfully it didn't work out for them and won't now.

This is a neck an neck race to the bottom of the moral trench. Both sides are at the bottom and digging as fast as they can. News flash( missile's fired from Lebanon) lets go try this again in Lebanon after all that worked out so well a couple years ago. I hope some adults show up soon and stop this mess.

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 12:30 am ET

So US media is anyway not objective ... corrupted by israel.. by the world bank controlled by jews... by cash?

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 12:41 am ET

"Old Soldier" – I am compelled to respond to you. I just returned from war. 22 months of it. I have been on the front lines of combat for most of it. I have 2 purple hearts to show for it. Let me make this simple, and I will cut and paste some things that I stated earlier to clarify:

The failure to understand – or worse, to understand but not to acknowledge – the fundamental difference between deliberately targeting civilians (Hamas) and accidentally killing civilians in the course of self-defense (Israel) reflects moral obtuseness at best and outright bigotry at worst. It encourages those who deliberately employ the murder of civilians as a means toward achieving “moral equality” with their more humane enemies in the court of public opinion.

If Israel wanted to deliberately target Palestinians in the most densely populated area on Earth – shitloads more would be killed – it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. The fact that a few hundred are dead in a 13 day operation is frankly proof that the opposite is happening.

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 12:42 am ET

Old Soldier – Back in the old days, and I can go there, number one was probably true. That was before soldiers hid out among women and children. Now you find that for a country to defend itself, the rules are different. They hide themselves and their weapons among the civilians, shoot them, then want sympathy if the civilians are hurt if those weapons are destroyed. I don't know what media and UN workers are doing in the middle of a war zone. War is war. If one was going on, I wouldn't go into it without realizing there was danger. Any soldier knows that during war, mistakenly, a soldier sometimes hits another soldier in his own army mistakenly – friendly fire. It is never safe, no matter how hard the Israel soldiers might try to keep civilians safe. Number three is interesting since one of my main sources of anger has been at the pictures of Israel, with schools with concrete arches over them, in case a missle hits. I guess in eight years of being fired upon, you can do that, build. I would say to number four – stay out of war zones because they are not a hundred percent safe, logically. Number five – all the finger pointing is useless. Let's find peace. Leave Israel alone, everyone. Get neutral country monitors, a lot of them, to safeguard that a long lasting peace is kept between Israel and Gaza. Don't let them even glance at each other. Let them live, produce, sell to the world markets, support themselves, raise their children, and learn to co-exist.

Nona   January 9th, 2009 12:43 am ET

Akiva, are you saying that Arab media is always objective? Is al-Jazeera objective?

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 12:46 am ET

Thank you GLeigh. And unfortunately, Hamas will not allow international monitors to enforce a cease-fire. They want to continue smuggling weapons.

Nona – right on. But why even respond to such tripe as "The World Bank is Controlled By Jews" and other anti-Semitic tirades?

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 12:47 am ET

Akiva – Accusations are easy. Please state your proof to back up this theory.

Nona   January 9th, 2009 12:50 am ET

Kevin - thanks! You totally rock! I am assuming you are American, so thank you for your service and sacrifice for my security - from the bottom of my heart.

Old Soldier, I assume you were are American too, and I also thank you for your service to our country. In response to your post, I pose this question, which I have posed repeatedly for days but never gotten an anwer to:

If Hamas can build miles and miles of tunnels for its weapons and artillary, why can they not build a single bomb shelter for the citizens of Gaza? Why are the arms more worthy of bunker protection than the children and elderly?

Lynne   January 9th, 2009 12:54 am ET

Hi Linda, Nona, AJ,

What's happenin tonight? Any good news???

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 12:55 am ET

Nona – I never thought of that – too outlandish I guess to even consider from them. I just wandered why they were lacking meds and such in Gaza when they had all this artillary. Priorities. Unfortunately, the people of Gaza are probably about as scared of Hamas as the people of Israel. I would be. Go in the tunnel – no way on earth for me....

Old soldier   January 9th, 2009 12:59 am ET

Kevin I thank you for your service to the same uniform I wore.

Let me say this another way BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG, there is no right here.

"fundamental difference between deliberately targeting civilians (Hamas) and accidentally killing civilians in the course of self-defense (Israel) reflects moral obtuseness at best and outright bigotry at worst. "
To this I say ask the families of the dead and wounded on either side and and see what they say about it. Dead is dead, missing parts are missing parts. Sorry Kevin I can't agree that dropping shells on a known shelter of women and children is moral in any way.

"I don’t know what media and UN workers are doing in the middle of a war zone. War is war. If one was going on, I wouldn’t go into it without realizing there was danger. Any soldier knows that during war, mistakenly, a soldier sometimes hits another soldier in his own army mistakenly – friendly fire

They were allowed in by the IDF (a very moral idea) and drove clearly marked vans. That's what they were doing there.

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 1:03 am ET

i ask?

i dont have to proove questions!

if i ask someone can answer me ... and if someone answer he will hopefully proof his answer!

"!" and "?" i hope everyone see the difference!

about the relation between US and world bank we can do oure own estimation! and about the relation between US gov and US media too!

Nona
no i dont say or think that US or Arab media is independent or free
both are maybe in a way cluffed!

but sure i think we have to watch both sides ... or all sides very carefully!!
and we have to fight for objective media! we have to investigate all twice and more of what we get by all sides!
we never should trust blindly!

if we trust blindly we all would do what the germans did to the german press as they begun to hate jews!
so let us not do such a misstake again! no where!

if we watch CNN carefully (CNN international)
there was a guy he told us facts...
he told us that the israelian army told him that hamas hide weapons in schools and that hamas hide in the civil population
he bring us this facts from the israelian army!

is this reporter blindly trusting to the israelian army!
is the israelian army telling us so many facts?

is it true that the israelian army respect international law and human rights as they say while they bomb human aid ?
and do they never tll us what they like?

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:03 am ET

Yes Old Soldier. I know they were in marked vans. This is why Israel didn't want the media in danger to begin with. But, in a war zone you know that things are chaotic. Everyone knows. You have young people, men and women, scared and noise and weapons going off. I agree that no one is lilly white. None are totally innocent. I just think Hamas should stop firing missiles, allow unbiased UN monitors in to safeguard both sides, Israel could go home, and perhaps there would be peace for awhile if Israel was left alone and everyone else was left alone.

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:07 am ET

Akiva – you stated the U.S. news was corrupted and the world bank controlled by Jews. I asked for your proof of this statement. I could say the world bank was controlled by martians. It would sound silly if I had no proof.

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 1:12 am ET

now CNN international say...

they cant be independent!
now they say they cant understand why human aid can get into Gaza but no reporter... and that it is ... in that way ... clear that they are not independent!

thats alarming!!

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 1:12 am ET

this are nazi methods by israel :(

the german press did the same

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:14 am ET

WHY DID
THE UNITED NATIONS
RESOLVE THAT
ZIONISM
IS A FORM OF
RACISM?

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:15 am ET

GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION
NO. 3379 (XXX) OF 10 NOVEMBER 1975
The General Assembly,
Recalling its resolution 1904 (XVIII) of
20 November 1963, proclaiming the
United Nations Declaration on the Elimination
of All Forms of Racial Discrimination,
and in particular its affirmation that
"any doctrine of racial differentiation or
superiority is scientifically false, morally
condemnable (and) socially unjust and
dangerous" and its expression of alarm at
"the manifestations of racial discrimination
still in evidence in some areas in the
world, some of which are imposed by
certain Governments by means of legislative,
administrative or other measures,"
Recalling also that, in its resolution
3151 (XXXVIII) of 14 December 1973,
the General Assembly condemned inter
alia the unholy alliance between South
African racism and zionism,
Taking note of the Declaration of Mexico
on the Equality of Women and their
Contribution to Development and Peace
proclaimed by the World Conference of
the International Women's Year, held at
Mexico City from 19 June to 2 July 1975,
which promulgated the principle that
"international cooperation and peace require
the achievement of national liberation
and independence, the elimination of
colonialism and neo-colonialism, foreign
occupation, zionism, apartheid, and racial
discrimination in all its forms as well as
the recognition of the dignity of peoples
and their rights to self-determination."
Taking note also of resolution 77 (XII)
adopted by the Assembly of Heads of
State and Government of the Organization
of African Unity held in Kampala from
28 July to 1 August 1975 which considered
"that the racist regime in occupied
Palestine and racist regimes in Zimbabwe
and South Africa have a common
imperialist origin, forming a whole and
having the same racist structure and being
organically linked in their policy aimed
at repression of the dignity and integrity
of the human being,"
Taking note also of the Political Declaration
and Strategy to strengthen International
Peace and Security and to intensify
Solidarity and Mutual Assistance among
Non-Aligned Countries, adopted at the
Conference of Ministers for Foreign Affairs
of Non-Aligned Countries held in
Lima, Peru, from 25 to 30 August 1975,
which most severely condemned zionism
as a threat to world peace and security
and called upon all countries to oppose
this racist and imperialist ideology,
1. Determines that zionism is a form
of racism and racial discrimination.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:15 am ET

In 1965 the United Nations, supported by the United States and Israel, passed Resolution
2106 defining racial discrimination as "any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference
based on race, color, descent or national or ethnic origin."
Ten years later, on November 10, 1975, the United Nations applied this definition to
Zionism [Resolution 3379] and concluded that Zionism is "a form of racism and racial discrimination."
On December 10, 1989 U.S. Vice President Danforth Quayle told an audience at Yeshiva
University in New York that he was launching a campaign to repeal Resolution 3379.
A repeal, however, means reexamining the reasons why, back in 1975, most of the
world regarded Zionism as a form of racism and racial discrimination. Some of those reasons
are noted in the list that follows, together with events subsequent to the U.N. Resolution
that relate directly to the question of racism.
1895. Theodor Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, notes in his diary
that the removal of Arabs bodily from Palestine is part of the Zionist plan to "spirit
the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment ... Both the
process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly
and circumspectly." Herzl's Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.
1919. Dr. Chaim Weizmann [first president of Israel] is reported by British Foreign
Minister Lord Curzon to want "a Jewish State, a Jewish nation, a subordinate
population of Arabs etc. ruled by Jews; the Jews in possession of the fat of the
land, and directing the administration." D. Ingrams, Palestine Papers,
1917-1922, p. 58.
1940. Joseph Weitz, director of the Jewish National Fund, the Zionist agency
charged with acquiring Palestinian land, insists, "The only solution is Eretz Israel
[Greater Israel], or at least Western Eretz Israel [all land west of the Jordan
River], without Arabs. There is no room for compromise on this point... We must
not leave a single village, not a single tribe." Machover, Israca, January 5, 1973,
p. 2.
1946. David Ben Gurion [Israel's first Prime Minister] tells an Anglo-American
Committee of Inquiry, "When we say `Jewish independence' or a `Jewish State',
we mean Jewish country, Jewish soil, we mean Jewish labor, we mean Jewish

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:16 am ET

economy, Jewish agriculture, Jewish industry, Jewish sea." The Jewish Case:
Before the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry for Palestine as Presented
by the Jewish Agency for Palestine, p. 66.
May 14,1948. Ben Gurion declares establishment of the State of Israel. In the
fighting that follows 725,000 Palestinian refugees lose their homes, with 394 out
of 475 Palestinian villages eradicated, leading Israeli Defense Minister Moshe
Dayan later to declare, "There is not a single Jewish village in this country that
has not been built on the site of an Arab village." Ha'aretz, April 4, 1967. [A list
of all 394 towns and villages is available upon request from A.M.E.U.]
December 4, 1948. Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt and other prominent Jewish
Americans, writing in The New York Times, protest the visit to America of Menachem
Begin: "Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the
emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the Freedom Party (Herut), a
political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy, and
social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties." [Begin later becomes Prime Minister,
and Herut member, Yitzhak Shamir, is Israel's current Prime Minister.]
1950. Israel enacts Law of Return, granting all Jews anywhere in the world, and
only Jews, the right to immigrate to Israel, on the grounds that they are returning
to their own state. Subsequent Israeli governments must swear to uphold this Basic
Law.
1950. Israel enacts the Development Authority Law, granting the Jewish National
Fund authority over 92% of the land. By means of a "Land Covenant", all this
property, most of it expropriated from Palestinians, now becomes the "inalienable
property" of the Jewish people worldwide, meaning non-Jews can never buy any
of it, never rent any of it, nor even be employed on any of it.
1952. Israel enacts the Citizenship/Jewish Nationality Law, granting every Jew in
the world, and only Jews, the status both of Israeli citizenship and Jewish nationality
as soon as they step foot on Israeli soil. This distinction between citizenship
and nationality, unique to the Zionist state, becomes the legal basis for state
sanctioned discrimination, whereby only Jewish nationals are eligible for many of
the privileges and services provided by the state or by its semi-governmental Zionist
organizations.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:17 am ET

1952. Israel enacts the World Zionist Organization/Jewish Agency (Status) Law,
empowering the Organization/Agency with "the development and settlement of
the country, the absorption of (Jewish) immigrants from the Diaspora and the coordination
of the activities in Israel of Jewish institutions and organizations active
in those fields." This makes hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens of non-
Jewish nationality, most of whom are native Palestinians, ineligible by law for
"nationality" benefits, meaning they cannot work on "national" land, and cannot
participate in "national" housing, educational, or agricultural benefits.
1958. Jewish philosopher Martin Buber tells a New York audience, "When we
[followers of prophetic Judaism] returned to Palestine ... the majority of Jewish
people preferred to learn from Hitler rather than from us." Jewish Newsletter,
June 2, 1958.
June 1967. Israel invades and occupies West Bank, Sinai, and Golan Heights.
By December 245,000 Palestinians flee the West Bank, 11,000 more flee Gaza,
and 116,000 Syrians flee the Golan Heights.
1967. Israel places newly occupied territories under military rule, making native
Palestinians, but not Jews who begin settling there, subject to arbitrary arrest and
imprisonment, deportation and collective punishment. Commenting on the military's
Emergency Regulations, Dr. Israel Shahak, Chairperson of the Israeli
League for Human and Civil Rights, and a survivor of the Bergen-Belsen concentration
camp, observes: "Hitler's legal power was based upon the `Enabling Act',
which was passed quite legally by the Reichstag and which allowed the Fuehrer
and his representatives, in plain language, to do what they wanted, or in legal
language, to issue regulations having the force of law. Exactly the same type of
act was passed by the Knesset [Israel's Parliament] immediately after the 1967
conquest granting the Israeli governor and his representatives the powers of Hitler,
which they use in a Hitlerian manner." Palestine, vol. 12, December 1983.
August 1967. Israel enacts the Agricultural Settlement Law banning Israeli citizens
of non-Jewish nationality from working on Jewish National Fund lands, thus
denying employment to thousands of Palestinians who in the 50's and early 60's
had returned to work on their expropriated lands as agricultural hands, lessees or
sharecroppers.
1970. Israel amends its Law of Return by defining `Jew' to mean a person born of

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:17 am ET

a Jewish mother or one who converts to Judaism and is not a member of another
religion. Law effectively equates `religion' and `Jewish nationality', clearly bringing
it within the definition of racism set forth in U.N. Resolution 2106.
1970. Israel amends the Discharged Soldiers Act of 1949 so that the relatively
small number of Jewish nationals who are exempt from military service can receive
all the benefits tied to military service, such as school, housing, welfare and
job entitlements, benefits denied the 98% of Israeli citizens of non-Jewish nationality,
most of whom are native Palestinians.
November 10, 1975. 72 countries, representing 52% of the earth's population,
condemn Zionism as "a form of racism and racial discrimination." [35 countries
vote against the Resolution and 32 abstain.]
June 19, 1977. A London Sunday Times investigation reports the widespread,
officially condoned systematic use of torture in the occupied territories, including
instances of sexual sadism.
1978-79. Three U.S. State Department cables filed by the American Consulate in
Jerusalem cite evidence that Israel's torture of Palestinian prisoners is a systematic
practice.
March 1985. Denis Goldberg, a Jewish South African sentenced to life imprisonment
for "conspiring to overthrow the apartheid regime," is released through the
intercession of Israeli officials. On arrival in Israel Goldberg says he sees "many
similarities in the oppression of blacks in South Africa and of Palestinians," and
he calls for a total economic boycott of South Africa, singling out Israel as a major
ally of the apartheid regime. Pledging never to stay in Israel, Goldberg moves to
London.
September 1985. U.S. Congressman George Crockett, after visiting the Israeli
West Bank, compares living conditions there with those of South African blacks
and concludes that the West Bank is an instance of apartheid that no one in the
U.S. is talking about. Press Release, September 13, 1985.
April 1988. Poll finds that 65% of Americans, in-cluding 41% of American Jews,
believe that "there is an element of racism involved in the attitude of Israelis towards
Arabs." Los Angeles Times, April 11, 1988.

Nona   January 9th, 2009 1:17 am ET

Akiva, you do realize that there are 6.7 BILLION people in the world, and only 13.2 MILLION are Jewish, right?

That's like 0.2% of the world population.

How on earth could the Jews possibly be as powerful as you claim they are? And who taught on Earth they were so evil? I'm sorry you've been so indoctrinated with such bad information. It's really tragic.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:18 am ET

November 1989. Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Benjamin Netanyahu tells students
at Bar-Ilan University that "Israel should have exploited the repression of
the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to
carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." From the Israeli
Journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.
December 25, 1989. Nobel laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu observes during
Christmas visit to Jerusalem: "I am a black South African, and if I were to change
the names, a description of what is happening in the Gaza Strip and the West
Bank could describe events in South Africa." From Israeli daily Ha'aretz, cited in
Palestine Perspectives, January/February 1990.
December 25, 1989. Israel's High Court of Justice rules that a Jew who converts
to the Jews for Jesus sect is no longer a Jew, hence no longer eligible for Jewish
nationality/citizenship benefits. Ruling confirms Israel's legal discrimination based
on the equation of one's nationality with one's religion.
January 5, 1990. An Israeli High Court Judge declares that, "The essence of a
Jewish state is to give preeminence to Jews as Jews. Anyone who asks, in the
name of democracy, for equality to all its citizens–Jews and Arabs–must be rejected
as one who negates the existence of the Israeli state as the state of the
Jewish people." From Israeli daily Ha'aretz, cited in News From Within, April 3,
1991.
February 1990. The U.S. State Department for the first time in its annual Country
Reports on Human Rights Practices lists a special category on Israel's
"Discrimination Based on Race, Sex, Religion, Language, or Social Status." Over
15 areas of discrimination by Jews against non-Jews are listed. See 1989 Country
Reports on Human Rights Practices.
April 25, 1990. Israel's Minister of Housing, David Levy, admits that his Ministry
secretly provided $1.8 million for Jewish settlers to move into the Christian Quarter
of Jerusalem. Jonathan Blass, spokesperson for the settlers, says that Jews
should be able to move into the Christian Quarter, but non-Jews should be barred
from the Jewish Quarter. The U.S. State Department calls the settlers' move "an
insensitive and provocative action" and Israel's financing of it "deeply disturbing."
The New York Times, April 25, 1990.

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:18 am ET

Akiva – I think it's because Israel is kind hearted, good or bad for them. They allow aide workers in because of compassionate reasons, know that if someone gets hurt that it will look really bad for them. Knowing there is that chance, but doing it anyway. The press is better kept safely out of the war zone – there is no need for them to compassionately help those injured. Perhaps the press should get to go in anway – I would just as soon that they are safe and war zones, by definition, will never be safe.

Old soldier   January 9th, 2009 1:19 am ET

I agree that no one is lilly white. None are totally innocent. I just think Hamas should stop firing missiles

I agree with you 100% here Leigh.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:19 am ET

September 1990. Poll conducted in Israel by Guttman Institute show that 60% of
young Jews prefer a greater land of Israel to human rights, 61% oppose giving
Arabs in the territories equal rights, and 67% support encouraging Palestinians to
emigrate. Factors listed by respondents as injurious to Zionism were: returning
land for peace, mixed residence of Jews and Arabs, and social contacts between
Jews and Arabs. 89% of respondents called themselves Zionists. American Israeli
Civil Liberties Coalition, Spring 1991.
November 1990. Speaking at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders,
Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares: "The past leaders of our movement
left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the [river] Jordan for
future generations, for the mass aliya [immigration], and for the Jewish people, all
or most of whom will be gathered into this country." Jerusalem Domestic Radio
Service, November 18 & 19,1990, as cited in Report on Israeli Settlement,
March 1991.
December 1990. Israeli newspaper reports: "Nearly 2,500 acres of land in the
[West Bank] villages of Husan, Wadi Fukin, and Nahallin have been appropriated
or are in the process of being appropriated for the Betar settlement and its access
roads ... The villages' legal representatives said that all the [Palestinian] residents'
appeals against appropriation are rejected with the argument that it is done
for the villages' benefit. Davar, December 3, 1990.
February 5, 1991. Congressman David R. Obey, Chairman of the House Foreign
Operations Sub-committee, declares that when the Gulf war is over, Americans
"have a right to demand of Israel one very big thing–a recognition of the right and
necessity of the Palestinian people to have their own homeland on a major portion
of the land that constitutes the West Bank and Gaza... Recent talk that the
West Bank and Gaza can now belong to the Israelis for 50 years is dangerous
nonsense and cannot be tolerated by any American government determined to
see to it that the blood of its citizens will never again be shed on Middle Eastern
battlefields." Report on Israeli Settlement, March 1991.
* * *
Over the past 42 years Israel's racial discrimination against non-Jews has penetrated
the most everyday aspects of social interaction. These include:

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:20 am ET

*Israeli citizens are required to carry ID cards on them at all times which specify
whether they are Jewish or non-Jewish.
*Israeli police are required to display identification numbers which are coded to
show if they are Jewish or non-Jewish.
*Police can tell from a driver's license if the bearer is Jewish or non-Jewish: Jews
renews on the 15th of the month, non-Jews on the 1st. N. Dacey, "Democracy"
in Israel, p. 47.
*Non-Jews cannot buy apartments owned by the Jewish National Fund. When a
Palestinian tried to buy one in East Jerusalem, the Chief Rabbi, Mordecai Eliayahu,
pronounced: "It is forbidden to sell apartments in the Land of Israel to Gentiles,"
Ha'aretz 17 January 1986.
*Jews in Israel are forbidden by a religious law, approved by the State, from marrying
non-Jews. Tekiner, Anti-Zionism: Analytical Reflections, p. 74.
*All Jewish elementary schools, secular and religious, have changed the plus
sign in math books to an inverted `T', because the plus sign looked too much like
the Christian cross. Israel Shahak, Al Fajr, October 11-17, 1981.
*For a Jew to hire a non-Jew to work on Jewish owned land is illegal and punishable
by fines.
*Approximately 50% of the non-Jewish sectors in Israel have no legal existence,
which means they are not entitled to a sewage system, electricity, nor connection
with the national water carrier, and any building done in these communities is
considered illegal and subject to demolition. The Other Front, 4 April 1990.
*Non-Jews in Israel, far more than Jews, have their telephones tapped and their
mail "stopped, opened and even destroyed." U.S. State Department's 1989
Country Reports on Human Rights.
*Israel's non-Jewish press is censored more strictly than its Hebrew language
press. U.S. State Department's 1989 Country Reports on Human Rights.
*In occupied Palestine, exclusive of East Jerusalem, automobile license plates
issued to non-Jews are different from those issued to Jews; also non-Jewish operated
taxis are clearly distinguished from Jewish operated taxis. N. Dacey,

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:20 am ET

"Democracy" in Israel, p. 47.
*Israeli rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declares that Jewish blood and a goy's blood are
not the same," inferring that killing isn't murder if the victim is Gentile. Jerusalem
Post, June 19, 1989.
*Israeli Housing Ministry, headed by Ariel Sharon, spends 20% of its money on
projects in the occupied territories, most of it on the 2% of Israeli settlers who also
receive special Government-backed mortgages. New York Times, April 24,
1991.
*Housing Minister Ariel Sharon says he intends to continue building settlements
despite pleas by Secretary of State James A. Baker 3rd to halt further expansion.
New York Times, July 26, 1991.
Israel's discrimination against non-Jews touches all Americans in that Zionism distinguishes
among Americans themselves, saying to some, who happen to be Jewish, that it
will give them automatic citizenship, along with a host of social benefits, while to all other
Americans these rights and benefits are denied precisely because they are non-Jews.
Ultimately, as Jewish philosopher Martin Buber warned in 1961, Israel's racism is suicidal:
Only an internal revolution can have the power to heal our people of their murderous
sickness of causeless hatred. It is bound to bring complete ruin upon us.
Only then will the old and young in our land realize how great was our responsibility
to those miserable Arab refugees in whose towns we have settled Jews who
were brought from afar; whose homes we have inherited, whose fields we now
sow and harvest; the fruit of whose gardens, orchards and vineyards we gather;
and in whose cities that we robbed, we put up houses of education, charity, and
prayer while we babble and rave about being the “people of the book” and the
“light of the nations!” Thud's Ner, January-February 1961.
Opponents of racism, who nonetheless call themselves Zionists, can help clarify the
U.N. Resolution on Zionism and Racism by stating their own position on the above citation.
For further information on the above items, see:

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:21 am ET

Abu-Lughod, I., ed., Transformation of Palestine, Northwest Univ. Press, 2nd ed.,1987,
335 pp. Includes Eskine Childer's classic research on Palestinian refugees of 1947-48. .
International Organization for Elimination of Racial Discrimination, AJAZ, ed., Judaism
or Zionism: What Difference for the Middle East? 1986, Zed Books, 285 pp. Twenty-two
specialists in theology, politics, law and history examine impact of Zionism on Jews, non-
Jews and Middle East politics.
Flapan, S., The Birth of Israel, Pantheon Books, 1987, 277 pp. Noted Jewish scholar
reconstructs actual events behind official myths of Israel's founding.
Lilienthal, A., The Zionist Connection II, North American Press, 1982, 904 pp. Well
documented history of Zionism from Herzl to Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon.
Quigley, J., Palestine and Israel: Challenge to Justice, Duke University Press, 1990,
337 pp. Author is law professor at Ohio State University.
McDowall, D., Palestine & Israel: The Uprising and Beyond, University of California
Press, 1989, 322 pp. Measured assessment both of Jewish-Palestinian conflict and of
prospects for its settlement.
Shahak, I. (Chairman), Israeli League for Human and Civil Rights 1988-89 Report: Human
Rights Violations During the Palestinian Uprising, Tel Aviv, 1989, 87 pp. Contains
eyewitness accounts from the Hebrew press of human rights abuses in occupied Palestine.
Tekiner, et al, eds., Anti-Zionism: Analytical Reflections, Amana Books, 1988, 358 pp.
Includes essays on Christian Zionism in USA and Who Is A Jew? controversy in Israel.
Wright, C. Facts and Fables: The Arab-Israeli Conflict, Kegan Paul International, 1989,
239 pp. Handy reference for most often debated questions on Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 1:21 am ET

Nona
power depend not on how many!
quantity and quality have no relations

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 1:23 am ET

Nona US did drive the world economy into ground

only one country did affect many countries!
thats about quantity and quality

only one country have the power to kill the economy of many countries ;)

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:24 am ET

Akiva – I do recognize a question mark, and wondered why on earth you were using them. Were you asking if Israel controls the United States press and if the Jews controlled the World Bank? I would say no if you asking that as a true question. I thought you were posing it as a possibility, a theory and didn't grasp our punctuation marks.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:28 am ET

GLeigh,

Please allow me to come and kick your ass and because I am very compationate i will transport you in my car to the nearest hospital... I will even pay the hospital bill how is that compation for you?

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 1:29 am ET

its a possibility !
and i are aloved to ask this ... i dont life in china! and i am not chinese anyway so i can ask what i like to ask and know!

it is possible and if you say no you have to proof that

but i see you also dont answer the question and only write what you think!
and thats your right!!!!!!!!!
and i respect that!!!!!!

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:34 am ET

Professor – I would say pretty compassionate if I had been shooting at your children for eight years.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:36 am ET

I saw a terrorist using your backyard to do that.... so get ready i am coming down...

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:37 am ET

Akiva – I have a little trouble understanding you. What is your question?

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:39 am ET

Are you threatening me Professor? I really don't like that.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:43 am ET

Thats exactly the reason why Palestinians don't like what is going on... I think I got you this time... LOL

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 1:46 am ET

GLeigh

http://www.inteldaily.com/?c=119&a=2166
is James Wolfensohn, Paul Wolfowitz orRobert Zoellick jewish?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/wolfowitz-tried-to-censor-world-bank-on-climate-change-461471.html
or
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/06/con06274.html
is bush able to censore?

shall we not think about that?
do you think my question…

“Akiva January 9th, 2009 030 GMT

So US media is anyway not objective … corrupted by israel.. by the world bank controlled by jews… by cash?”

…is not legitime?

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:47 am ET

Hamas, not the Palestinians, are shooting missiles at Israel. No threats, just acts of violence. For eight years. I don't know about the Palestinians, perhaps they are victims of Hamas too. If Hamas threatened to shoot missiles, but had not done it, the young people dying in Israel's army would be home where they belong. Actions are different.

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 1:49 am ET

The Professor has posted some drivelling tripe again that is full of lies and propaganda. He does not address any of the issues raised in my postings,or others' postings but goes straight on to attack Israel. Let me clarify things, once again:

Israel affords all of its ciizens – Jews, Muslims, and Christians far better lives and opportunities than those afforded by any Arab or Muslim nation. It is the only country in modern history to have returned disputed territory captured in a defensive war and crucial to its own self-defense in exchange for peace. Israel has killed far fewer innocent civilians in proportion to the number of its own civilians killed than any country engaged in a comparable war.
Israel was not the only country that gained territory as a result of the failed Arab attack on them. Jordan occupied – indeed annexed – the entire West Bank, while Egypt occupied the Gaza strip. There were no resolutions demanding an end to these “occupations” although they were described as brutal and repressive.If the Arabs accepted the Peel Commission partition proposal, there would have been a Palestinian state. There would have been no Arab “refugee” problem had the Arab states accepted the subsequent UN partition. But instead, having rejected Jewish self-determination in 1937, the Arab world once again rejected it in 1948 and attacked Israel in an effort to destroy the new Jewish state, exterminate the Jewish population, and drive the Jews into the sea. Then again in 1967 it threatened Israel with destruction and annihilation.
People like you understand that if you repeat a big lie often enough people will begin to believe it. It would be terrible if this were true, since criticism of Israel is important, as is criticism of any imperfect democracy.
Indeed the Israeli government’s harshest substantive critics are Israeli’s, both inside and outside he government – and sometimes even in the cabinet itself! No one has ever called them anti-Semitic. The one prominent person I am aware of who equated anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism was Martin Luther King Jr., who responded to a question posed by a student who attacked Zionism by telling the student that attacks on Zionists were often a euphemism for attacking Jews. Certainly denying the Holocaust, or blaiming it on “the Jews” which has been a staple of Palestinian extreist rhetoric, constitutes bigotry.
Even those who believe that singling out Zionists or the Zionist state for criticism is not anti-Semitic must surely acknowledge that there is a difference between mere criticism of Israel and singling it out.
Israel’s record on human rights is among the best in the world, especially among nations that have confronted comparable threats. Israel has the only independent judiciary in the entire Middle East and has one of the most highly regarded Supreme Courts in the world. It is the only court in the Middle East from which an Arab or a Muslim can expect justice, as many havein winning dozens of victories against the Israeli government, the Israeli military, and Israeli citizens. I challenge proponents of a boycott to name a court in any other Arab or Muslim country that is comparable to the Israeli Supreme Court. Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East and the only country that has virtually unlimited freedom of speech. Its media are generally very critical of its government, Any person in Israel – whether Jewish, Muslim, or Christian – can criticize the Israeli government or its leaders. No citizen of any other Mediterranean state or Muslim state can do that without fear of imprisonment or death. Nor can Palestinians openly criticize their leaders without fear of reprisal. As Arafat famously threatened the Mayor of Bethlehem, after the mayor had proposed a truce that would have halted Palestinian terrorism: “Whoever thinks of stopping the Intifada before it achieves its goal, I will give him 10 bullets in the chest.” Arafat first denied making such a statement, and then when our State Department produced a tape recording, Arafat denied it was a threat. Finally, when Arab translators said it could have no other meaning, Arafat denied that it was directed at the mayor but rather at himself! The mayor of Bethlehem had no difficulty understanding what Arafat was saying – he immediately withdrew his proposal for a truce.
There is more gender, religious, sexual orientation, and ethnic equality in Israel than in any other Mideastern or Muslim country. The rights of women, gays, and others are more fully recognized and implemented in Israel than anywhere in the Arab world.


GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:51 am ET

Akiva – I am not going to start reading all the opinions on the World Wide Web. Like....a nose, everyone has one.

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 1:52 am ET

Akiva- if you are going to post, please do it in a manner that is comprehensible. Even your anti-Semitic tirades are unintelligible.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 1:53 am ET

GLeigh,

I guess you missed my point... let me give you the Senario like this again....

Israel (me) told (you) the Palestinian civilian who is living in your home in Gaza.... that a terrorist (Hamas) used your backyard to shoot a rocket at me.... told you to get ready becuase I am coming down to kick your ass (they gave the Palestinian warning right?) I kicked your ass with a baseball bat or something ever bigger (I don't know what that is).... then becuase I am very compassionate.... I drove you down to the hospital... (humanitarian corridor).... I took care of the bill too (ok Israel has not done that yet) but I have more compassion. ;)

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:53 am ET

Professor – Did I mention that I respect Israel because it is more kind and forgiving than I can ever hope to be?

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 1:56 am ET

GLeight

so you trust only in sources by USA?

shall i now search sources out of USA abaot that?
do you think i will find nothing, and do you think i will not find also more official infos?

and a other question...

do you think mossas and CIA did never work together?
and do you think seecrt services never spread disinformations?

but if you dont mind to think about all that
its your right to not think!!!
and that i respect to :)

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:56 am ET

Professor – Did I miss something? Isn't Hamas the elected government of Gaza? Aren't there tunnels built? I would suggest that the population not allow their government to shoot missiles from their populated areas. I would leave those areas. I would get a different government.

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 1:59 am ET

Akiva – Do you think that what you just wrote has nothing to do with the fact that Hamas has been shooting missiles at Israel for eight years, would not accept UN monitoring intervention, and won't stop to save it's own people. In fact, they put their missiles among their own people. Let's try to stay on track here....

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 2:03 am ET

Kevin

if you shout me anti semit...

shall we again talk about from which internet site you got yesterday your anti arabic stuff?

shall we again talk about this jewish site full of hate!
this site with links to pictures of deth childrens at "o r g i s h . c o m"
this site of jews which are in clifornia?
or for sure host theyr site in california?

if you post stuff from jewish hate site as they say for frustrated people...
are you an anti arabic?

and again i say fascism is fascism ... by germans or jews or who ever!
and again i say "h i t l e r" is a jerk!
and again i tell you in my blod is jew
and because of you i hate this blod!

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 2:05 am ET

Akiva – I don't believe you are Jewish. I don't think the Jewish people, or the martians, control the World Bank either. I might be wrong on one or more of those points but doubt it.

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 2:05 am ET

i correct my self or make it more precise
i dont hate the jew blod in me because all jews!
but because jews as you full of hate!

and happily not all jews are as you full of hate
not all jews are as you anti muslim

and i am happy that this other jews give me a reason to not kill my self!

thanks to them !
shame on you again Kevin!

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 2:08 am ET

GLeight i am not jew!
but i have blood of jews in my which had to run because "h i t l e r"
and i say that i hate h i t l e r!

and i say genocide is genocide
and i condemn genocide!
on jews and also all on others !

what you beleve now is your bussins

beleve in the bible if you like which say hate is bad and murderer will go to hell!

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 2:09 am ET

Shame on me Akiva? Akiva, I am not anti-muslim, nor am I "full of hate". Your nonsensical blatherings are simply word-salad. Why don't you read the Hamas Charter if you want to see what "hate" is.

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 2:10 am ET

I don't think the Jewish people are full of hate. I think they want Hamas to stop using their country for target practice. Eight years is a long time to be patient. I think they might be scared too. If someone said their life's goal was to wipe my country off the face of the earth, it would be scary.

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 2:14 am ET

Kevin after the site you posted yesterday i think we have not to talk more about you and hate
or about your anti muslim propaganda at this site for frustrated people!
or about you and hanging around on sites which celebrate deth and stumped girls

i think talking to much about that will bring nothing and i hope you visit also other sites then only such jewish hatesites in california!

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 2:14 am ET

Thank you GLeigh.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 2:16 am ET

GLeigh,

60 years of Palestinian patience is far more than 8 years of Israeli patience...

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 2:17 am ET

Akiva – I do like the Bible. I think many other religions may also be tied into the search for God. I wasn't here when he made the world, so I don't know for a fact which religion(s) he prefers. I do know that he is against killing and hate and trying to wipe people off the face of the earth. That is not the way to search for God in my lowly opinion. In all groups there are good and bad. I hope the good win out in the end.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 2:18 am ET

Oh and no for sure not all the Jewish people are full of hate only those who support Israel blindly.... ;)

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 2:20 am ET

GLeigh

i also not think that all jews are full of hate!!!
else i would not able to life longer
i would not be able to face my self in the mirror again

but also we all know everywhere are extrmists! and people full of hate as people full of love! every where is good and bad
ths excludes not the jews! as it excludes no one !

and we all sure know this CNN blog is also visitet by different extremists
jewish arabic and others!

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 2:24 am ET

Professor

following someone blindly means not that he is automatic a hater!
if someone following a Preist of love i think he is not a hater!

i also not think all israelians are full of hate!

but i think the actual leadership of israel is also not the preist of love!

they say" we have to kill ALL hamas"!
as h i t l e r did to the jews!
and that genocide and never to be supported!

Kevin   January 9th, 2009 2:26 am ET

So Akiva- if I say we need to get rid of all Al Quaeda – would you consider that genocide?

Professor   January 9th, 2009 2:29 am ET

THE UN cease-fire resolution has passed.

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 2:32 am ET

Israel is a country. The Jewish people live in that country and support it. They support their military to keep them safe. That's not called hate, it's called patriotism in my book. I'm certain that some people there do hate just as some in Gaza hate. I don't think everyone does. I do think that blaming is useless. Israel needs peace and left alone. Gaza needs the same. That's why I've been saying place unbiased, multi-country UN peace workers between the two. Let them work to produce useful products, support themselves and leave each other alone. Is that what you want too?? Peace for both??

Professor   January 9th, 2009 2:34 am ET

GLeigh,

That is not true... not all the Jews who live in Israel... nor those who live outside Israel supports Israeli government blindly. I have met a lot of them that do not....

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 2:34 am ET

Will Hamas, the government of Gaza accept that peaceful solution?

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 2:36 am ET

yes !!

we have to find, all and everybody, a way to life together in peace!
we have to, and they too, to sarch a way for co-existence!

else we would not be better then hitler!

and i beleve that w can find a way if we speak all together and begin to respect others!

and i am sure there is a way that also al quaeda will respect others!
but actualy we, or most, are only interesstet in killing!

we, or you, are willing to kill are all from al quaeda. and they have the same will to us!
all or most follow theyr leaders blindly and they are also in much ways extremists!

we have to stop that ... we have to open oure eyes
and we have to respect
respect each other!

happily i am not speaking about all people!... there are also many people today they are willing to search for peace.. willing to speak with others.... and willing to respect others!

KING   January 9th, 2009 2:39 am ET

What about the children.
All wars, it's all ways the children that get killed
Would it be better to get all the politicians who start these wars should get in a room and kill each other.
come on , grow up , this is 2009.
we still fight like the dark ages.
help the women and children , please....
come on george

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 2:43 am ET

Professor – you do love to argue! lol Okay, not each and everyone. Happy?? I don't know why they wouldn't support their own country if they lived there, and if outside of it, like the people who live here, they would support their country here. Muslims here, that I know, have supported their government here. You know, that's really not the point – which government or group to support. The point is learning to search for God and not kill other people the short life span we each are allotted. Doesn't sound that hard, but I guess it is harder than it sounds.

KING   January 9th, 2009 2:43 am ET

well gleigh , isreal is not a country.... that is palestine... the jews are occupied. look at all maps before 1949 it was called palestine.
the jews stole that country. by the way the jews are not human

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 2:48 am ET

King – 50 years ago Israel owned it. A hundred years ago it was Palestine. 2000 years ago, it was Israel but the Romans occupied it. I suggest we give it to the Romans. Actually, Native Americans, very wise people by the way, said that no one "owns" land. We just borrow it for a short time. Land was here before people and will be here after them. Makes sense to me. I guess right now the Israel people are borrowing it.

KING   January 9th, 2009 2:50 am ET

the isrealies are acting like hitler

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 2:50 am ET

The sad part is, I think the Jewish people and the Arab people are brothers. I don't know how all this hate happened, but it's terribly sad. Always family violence is the most violent. Ask any policeman.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 2:53 am ET

GLeigh,

Have you seen any pictures of Ariel Sharon massacres against the Palestinians?.... I am so glad he suffering for the past how long?... on his death bed.... he will suffer alot more when he moves on to the next life...

KING   January 9th, 2009 2:54 am ET

gleigh
what a crock of rubbish
so that if say iran decides to take over isreal and call it say niran
is that what your telling me.
by the way your wrong about the romans

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 2:54 am ET

Perhaps you are right King. I'm no where near that part of the world. My children's biggest worry is what we are having for dinner, not bombs or missiles. That's why I wish a non biased UN monitoring group were the answer. I don't know if it is. I love the Arab people. I don't want the people of Gaza to suffer but to worry about chicken or beef for dinner. Children should feel safe. Everywhere.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 2:56 am ET

GLeigh,

thats right they are both the sons of Abraham.... but the disagreement is Israeli's do not consider Ismail.... as a ligitmate son for Abraham.... Muslims accepts both Issac and Ismail as ligitimate sons from two different mothers. See how stupid the Israelis are?

KING   January 9th, 2009 2:57 am ET

what about the children

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 2:59 am ET

GLeight

with your post...

"The sad part is, I think the Jewish people and the Arab people are brothers. I don’t know how all this hate happened, but it’s terribly sad. Always family violence is the most violent. Ask any policeman."

i totaly agree!!!

but i have not to ask a policeman to know this :))
i can think by my self and get the same result!
and which policeman from whre knows what about midle easy;)
we should try to think a bit alone ;)

but i know what you mean ;) and i agree in that point
we all are in a way brothers...

i am not religious but let us thake a theory of it....

Adam and Eva ... the start of menkind
so maybe we all are brothers and sisters ;)

but who know if this adam and eva story is a fact :))
shall some one proofe it to me :))

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 2:59 am ET

King – I'm saying that land is not as important as world peace and lives. I don't have ALL the answers. Who owns what? I don't know. I don't even care at this point. I want peace. For everyone. Do you have all the answers? Do you know who should have what and who should do what all the time? Did God tell you something that the rest of us missed? This violence will continue until someone or everyone stops it. How do you do that?

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 3:06 am ET

CNN says there are no journalists in Gaza all the time . they did say all the time there is only hama propaganda

and now the ressolution passed and they begin to talk from other reporters in Gaza!

this while there still is war ... until not israel still bombs there!
but now after the ressolution passed CNN talk about reporters in Gaza!

this smells !!!!

Akiva   January 9th, 2009 3:09 am ET

i move a blog up read ya... :)

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 3:09 am ET

Professor – Thanks you for curing my ignorance. I know they were brothers, but didn't know the history. You are such a detail person, and I'm not. Perhaps, one day, this family will re-unite. Maybe not, ever. If it ever happens, I hope they find God. After all the pain, it should be worth it I think. I agree that the Jewish people should accept their brother and vice versa.

Professor   January 9th, 2009 3:12 am ET

GLeigh,

I wish.... but I do not have much hope on the Jews accepting Ismail as a ligitimate brother to Issac and a prophet... :(

Professor   January 9th, 2009 3:14 am ET

On that note... I am going to say good night everybody.... gotta get few things done before going to bed.

GLeigh   January 9th, 2009 3:18 am ET

I'm sorry Professor. I'm pretty old fashioned and set in my ways too. That doesn't make it right though, so I'm learning lessons in my personal life. A big one actually. But – I don't think the answer is hating and trying to kill each other. Not soon, but someday, I hope the two brothers will unite. That would be an awesome power. Perhaps too much for the world at this time. Things move at their own pace. Perhaps it will never happen. Something to reflect upon anyway.

miriam   January 9th, 2009 5:27 am ET

UN claims that Israeli tanks fired on the truck drivers during a truce and the Palestinian Red crescent claims that it evacuated the injured.

Why then are the two injured in hospital in Israel with gun-shot wounds after being evacuated in Israeli ambulances and the footage of them arriving to the hospital was taken before 1300 hours?

You still believe every word that comes out of Gaza?

The three hours is not a truce. It is an humanitarian corridor that Israel has arranged and to which Hamas has no agreement.

Zahua J.   January 9th, 2009 6:15 am ET

Do not believe a single word that Isreal says .. They just want to act innocent when apparently there NOT! They are killing innocent people for no apparent reason! The Palestinian people have nothing to do with this war ..So stop killing innocent Civilians ISREAL!! .FREE GAZA!!

Zahua J.   January 9th, 2009 6:23 am ET

Palestine belongs to Palestinians only!! All Jews dont belong there.. You cant just go into a country and take it over!! Palestine will be free

Zahua J.   January 9th, 2009 6:29 am ET

HOW CAN GAZA KEEP BOMBING ISREAL?!? Isreal is Killing everyone in Gaza and they still believe that? Isreal needs to THINK harder on what they are doing because Isreal Does not know exactly what they are doing!!!!!!!

Kary Ludeman   January 9th, 2009 8:55 am ET

I look thru this blog and can see one thing - don't trust suicidal cowards that wear masks and hide in the ground and hide behind women and chirldren and debase women and push genocide hate and religious murder with such blood thirsty zeal all in the name of religion - they are the ultimate lie. You cannot use logic or common sense with them. There will always be something for them to blow up - even if there were no other unclean "infidels" or "unbelievers" to murder from their evil holes, these PUBAHS continue to kill and sin against their own religion - they have killed countless more of their own without guilt than those they blather about. I mean what is their campaign slogan, huh, is it "Blow yourself up and earn money for your family and secure a spot in heaven?" Great balls of fire, is that their enlistment slogan? Boy, we all know about all the wars that were won with that logic don't we? NOT! No matter what they tell you or their so-called leaders say, how can you trust them? Church and State, huh? Who's kidding who? There would be no state with out some sort of "free" process. Just a bunch of fascist warlords with slaves. They would stab you in the back at the movies or while you were shopping at the mall just to get a 3 minute spot on CNN. You couldn't trust them to "pump gas" at a gas station or they would blow up most of the customers cuz they didn't like the music they were playing on their car radios while they were waiting. Gonna run out of customers eventually and no one left to by the gas (actually not buying their gas sounds like a good idea anyway doesn't it? Personally, I like the idea of good clean WESTERN cold fusion–lightning in a bottle to run my CHEVY–and then we'll see won't we?) The statistics seem to indicate that anytime one of these terrorist wannabee outfits doesn't like the way their neighbor was running his BBQ next door or the color of his neighbors house they would fire a rocket over their white picket fence and blow it up. Nope, you can bet the new boss would be worse than the old one in that case. Freedom under them! Ha! That's a good one, especially for the women. Education has got to be the answer to get the facts to people, all people, all citizens of this world, that the incongruency theory the terrorists are using will continue always .... murder and hate is what they spew as they breed chaos and anarchy .... they have no honor .... what pride could they have? That's why they're called terrorists! They conspire to break international law in order to get any kind of attention and cause more pain and hate so to fill their ranks .... how can you trust anyone like that? They kill with no discrimination and spread terror ... at war with what? who? That's why nations that sponsor this kind of terrorist crap, well, we know who they are and what they stand for. Goodness, it's like MORDOR (Land of Shadow) in the Lord Of The Rings. They keep their people uneducated so they will blame their lot on other free peoples of the world. God golly, let's be more up-beat than that. By the way my religion is freedom and I make mistakes and get ticked-off by others, especially when they blow up innocent people at work in the buildings of other countries that didn't want to get dragged into their bull-s%$t. And.....if Jews are running the world-bank, they're probably FreeMen and won't be swayed by some numb-nuts terrorist and the money would be insured under some sort of LAW and they can count really good, probably got an MBA and wouldn't blow up a shopping mall you pricks! - I would hire them to by my investment banker not you. I would put my money on them, litterally, and not you cuz YOU BLOW CRAP UP and fire rockets at people indiscriminately and terrorists wreck property and and we can't trust terrorists with matches cuz anytime one of them yells "ALLY-ACKBAR" or what ever cuz you'll try to set some innocent person on fire at the grocery store or at the daycare or in school. Heck, you couldn't be trusted to run to the grocery store to bring back a loaf of bread without blowing it up, especially if you thought one of the clerks ripped you off on a six pack of beer or bottle of Johnny Walker Red - oh - that's right, you guys don't drink liquor or get drunk cuz of your religion - we all know that's true don't we? Trust you not to drink but it's ok to blow people up at the market place while they are shopping for their favorite dinner item. Hey, we know the score with you creeps, you threaten and you promise death, there ain't no pot of gold at the end of your rainbow only the promise of more of the same cuz you are a bunch of war-lord wannabees thinking about the next gangland rumble down the street. JUST my opinion. I think HAMAS loves the attention...isn't it pronounced "HAMM-ASS"? Someone earlier in this blog said HAMAS said a million times it will quit firing rockets if Israel would quit it's incurrsions into Gaza and quite it's assasinations. WHAT A CROCK! HAMAS won't acknowlede that the sun comes up in the morning much less that they would quit being a terrorist organization. They will tell you anything they think you will want to hear....I mean look at it .... there are some of these jokers that think the Holocaust never occurred. Their idea of a fun day would be what? Go to the mall and make sure you buy out all the alarm clocks before one of their own "brethren" blows the mall up and get the clocks back to their cave under the church cuz "they're real busy folks just trying to make a point in the name of goodness and humanity?" Let's be real... even if the terrorists are running the country there, they are gonna RUN OUT OF SHOPPING MALLS to blow up pretty soon and no one will be able to buy any more alarm clocks to make bombs with...goodness....what is a good terrorist to do then? An outfit like that wouldn't be able to pump water much less provide services to it's "citizens". Once again, those who wear masks are criminals and cowards - they murder and they use the "dark-side" of human nature to fuel their fire of hate - THEY WEAR MASKS! Get a clue folks, in modern times "terrorism" usually refers to the killing of innocents by a private group in such a way as to create a media spectacle. According to the League of Nations Convention (1937): all criminal acts directed against a State and intended or calculated to create a state of terror in the minds of particular persons or a group of persons or the general public is terrorism. According to the Darul Uloom Deoband Anti-Terrorism Conference (2008) terrorism is: Any action that targets innocents, whether by an individual or by any government and its agencies or by a private organisation anywhere in the world, constitutes, according to Islam, terrorism. Now I may seem to use the term "terrorism" loosely and it is a complex and very subjective issue and I do not want to be misconstrued as taking the issue lightly but, golly, I think it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see which "team" needs to win so that we all are not doomed into eating dirt in the name of some religion that we are being told is really gonna be good for us or especially just because some other PUBAH on the other side of the world doesn't like the color of my hair or that I drink Miller beer. TRUCE? These idiots will never be honost about anything they say they are gonna do or anything they did do....they can't admit to being terrorists cuz that don't sound good to the average person on the streets who's just trying to get some eggs at the local marketplace - UGH, they are BAD. Where does that leave GAZA? Why do the citizens there put up with these HAMAS twits? Oh, that's right, if you disagree with someone from Hamas or Hezbollah they're gonna blow you up and hide guns and munitions in your church. Not to mention you better join their program so you can get in their next attempt with the media to act like the GODFATHER in some movie drama about how their lands were stolen and they are there to right all the wrongs inflicted on them by Zionism (they try to down play the FACT that they have publicaly sworn to wipe out Israel–isn't that genocide?–we shouldn't put up with that crap–you don't see Israel swearing to wipe out Islam do you? Wasn't Israel the one who offered the olive branch and is trying to live in peace?) Man-O-Man, what is Gaza gonna do? Need to get rid of Hamas or that element that's always shooting there frikin' automatic weapons in the air evertime a damn camera is on them like it's some sort of party–geeesh–don't they know the bullets go up in the air and come back down on your own heads when they do that? Idiots. Everytime this crap happens Is we all gonna vote the way they want us to? Don't know right from wrong do they? Hey, lesson to weapons dealers, better watch yer ass cuz you be selling weapons to those peons, they just gonna screw you over too cuz they can't be trusted. NEED TO CLAMP DOWN ON THE WEAPONS OVER THERE. See Ya!

KING   January 9th, 2009 9:24 am ET

the israelies have complained for 60years about how hitler gased,burnt, shot , bombed , etc, etc....
well they are doing the same thing to the palestinians.
doesn't any care about the children and the women.
even before the war did you see how they live!!
water is in the well, the electricity is turned off or on by the israelies.
so many checkpoints . thats how it was in 1940 germany and poland.
they are standing on the throats of the palestinians and they dont have the right food or medical or education.they can shoot the UN aid workers. they have hit the apartments , hospitals, mosques , schools, etc, etc.... why dont they let the journelists to gaza and isreal?

Haseeb   January 9th, 2009 9:45 am ET

King
You are utterly spot on this issue.

Kary Ludeman   January 9th, 2009 11:13 am ET

Hey King & Haseeb, now you admit there was a Holocaust. How convenient when you folks feel like acknowledging that FACT of history when you feel like it. If I remember correctly, didn't Palestine include Palestinians & Hebrews alike, didn't it? I am sure you will correct me if I'm wrong. I do believe that terrosists are hiding weapons in Gaza in apartments , hospitals, mosques , schools, etc, etc. I think bombs are being built by those who force children to build and deliver them when those children should be going to school and playing football. If you hate the Jews so much, why not play them in a football game? Oh, I know, if you didn't agree with a referees call during the game, you would blow the referee up.... I really don't think the U.N. and the media is afraid of Israel. I think Israel is trying to protect them cuz there is a murderous gang of cutthroat thugs using GAZA as a shield. By the way, during a lot of sporting events covered by the media, if some yahoo runs on the field to get attention, the media will turn the cameras away so as not to encourage that type of behavior at games in the future. At least many of the media networks in free countries will do that so as not to encourage disfunctional behavior in the futre, I don't know how they act in some extremist dictatorship…. I think that journelists that go into any country controlled by Islamic Extremists are gonna be fed such a line of crap that ... oh, wait, you already fed us a line of crap didn't you? Spot on dudes, trying to convince us all of Israelie Hitlersl - good golly - what'll you folks come up with next. Wasn't Hamas controlling Gaza? I could've sworn that Hamas over the last year was bragging on how it was a valid political party and it controlled Gaza. It must be in control of the rockets being fired back into Israel then, huh? Guess Hamas is not in control of Gaza anymore are they? Couldn't lay low could they? Got there own country going, that, if it went the other way (the good way) then the rest of the world could've seen it and said it was good and it could've blossomed into an ongoing enterprise BUT NO! Just gotta keep firing the rockets into Israel and blowing stuff up to piss the Israelies off and get them to keep blocking and tighten the noose on what obviously looks to them like a pit of vipers or bug infestation so that they be ready to kick some ass. It's a bummer you can't get all the media in there to get more publicity about how the Israelies are being "Hitler". Like I believe you on that (NOT!). Maybe if Hamas fires more rockets goodness knows where at or what at indiscriminately into civilian centers, then you can keep swaying the media on how benevolent Hamas is. Like there's no checkpoints in Syria, Iran or Saudi Arabia? Goodness, please stop using religion as some sort weapon. Religion is supposed to help and give hope not keep us in the dark and grovelling on our knees because some thug thinks we should pray harder or doesn't like it cuz I shaved my beard. Israel is trying to run a country that has more than just Jews in it - I think you would call Israel a free nation - any free nation has quite a situation if it's got a bunch of religious extremist terrorists running around blowing crap up and shooting rockets hither and thither and using it's own people for cover. You sit there above and are trying to lecture us on how Israel is acting like "Hitler or NAZI's" - what the heck - free people are supposed to beleive what you say? HA ! Are you trying to convince me that Israel doesn't have any idea or that they aren't concerned about their own image in the eyes of the rest of the world, especially in light of how they were treated by the NAZI's during the Holocaust? How dare you ! Truly, you are nuts ! I think Hamas and especially Hezbollah wants a train wreck of a bad situation in Gaza as part of their sick propaganda campaign of death, rape & destruction so they can try and get the rest of the world to blame Israel. Ain't gonna work, media's gonna get tired of it, and these terrorists (that half of them probably aren't even from "Palestine") are gonna force Israel into something the Israelies seem to be very good at and that's protecting themselves and winning wars against those who attack them and try and wipe them out in the name of some religion especially. Make no mistake, many more people are alive in Gaza because the Israelies are battling terrorists there than if this was the same type of uprising in Syria or Lebanon or Iran and those governments were trying to put it down. There is no doubt if it happened in those countries they would probably kill anything that moved in there without discrimination they would kill thousands and thousands and thousands. No one wants killing EXCEPT Islamic extremists who profess to the world that they want to kill and push genocide on the rest of us. My God! Who would have a charter for their organizations that proclaim genocide to the rest of the world? What a suckie outfit! I mean it's in Wikipedia that these terrorist outfits are like this - the jews didn't write Wikipedia and other dictionaries. Where were these noble enterprises when the U.N. sanctioned against them for doing this or that against humanity in the past? Double-spreck isn't it? Islamic extremists where masks. Islamic extremists wheer masks. Islamic extremists where masks. Let that sink in. Who you gonna trust?

Hunk   January 9th, 2009 12:18 pm ET

Kary Ludeman,

you say that terrorist are hiding bombs in schools and mosques .... did u see the hole the Israeli claim is a tunnel .... did they taken inside .... did they show from where its start and where it end ...... its a hole my dear .... u seem to be a smart person ....... my mentor have UR last name and he is the one who told me this ..... its a lie .........nothing more nothing less and as simple as that ... .

Jonas   January 9th, 2009 1:55 pm ET

Hunk,
I have seen many of your postings and they are normally a load of rubbish. What does "my mentor have UR last name" mean. Is it a threat of violence?

Rod   January 9th, 2009 5:29 pm ET

It Appalls me that Americans are paying for this when while going through economic depression.

Did you ask yourself why?

if you really want to stop this massacre go to

http://www.endtheoccupation.org/

Get involved, call your congressmen tell them That you do not want your Tax Money used to kill Children and Women.

Congressmen want more Children and Women killed to be re-elected.

You are paying for this Massacre. Make a statement. Say NO.

Say “NO” to killing and murdering with our money.

Zahua J.   January 9th, 2009 8:04 pm ET

I think Jews are very Ignorent and dont care about anyone but themselves ...They are going to regret everything they are doing.. When God asks them why did they kill all those Children women etc. they wont have an answer to respond they are going to HELL

rider89   January 9th, 2009 9:23 pm ET

Rod said:
>Why not call up the sons of the ministers and members of the >Knesset, form them into a combat unit and send them off to head >the coming ground attack on Gaza? ”

Could you not say the same about the imams who send children to blow themselves up. I often wonder if extreme cowardice is some thing radical islamists are at birth, or does happen after becoming radicalized.

rider89   January 9th, 2009 9:27 pm ET

somewhat amazing to see all the virulent antisemitism remarks on this blog. I know CNN itself is antisemitic (look at all the staged and outright fake "news" they produce), but I was curious if most of the posters are card carrying Nazis or just garden variety terrorists?
just curious...

Linda   January 9th, 2009 10:57 pm ET

rider,
Jump over to one of the other blogs, we are nice there :)

jim   January 10th, 2009 5:22 pm ET

anti semitic? try anti zionist. theres a difference. ever since 1967 israel has been a terrorist, oppressive country. only with the support of the u.s. does it still exist. they have conducted attacks that violated all legal opinion. the attack on the uss liberty which killed american sailors. the 1967 war in which israel has never returned occupied land. the bombing of iraqi nuclear power plant in 1980. countless attacks on lebanon, syria and gaza. israel was created by u.n. mandate and its the last u.n. mandate israel has recognized. israel never lived up to the camp david peace accord which dictated israel return to pre 67 borders but yet they still take our money and weapons. the israli spy jonathan pollard in which israel conducted spying and espionage against the u.s.a. israel refused to sign extradition treaty with the u.s.a thus harboring fugitives wanted by the american judicial system for crimes like fraud, embezzelment, kidnapping and even murder. israel is a country in which american jews can flee to in order to avoid u.s. prosecution and inprissonment. for those of you who think i am a jew hating nazi i can provide info to back up all these facts. i have jewish friends. but i am anti-israel.

Ashley   January 11th, 2009 6:59 am ET

REMINDERS TO ALL:
1- the all purpose anti-semitic lip-sealer has expired.
2- the Muslim-bashing, hate mongering spell has faded
3- the sedation tonic making people believe America=Israel has worn off

WARNING:
THE AVERAGE AMERICAN IS OUT OF ITS COMMA. We need answers for what is happening in Palestine. America DOES NOT SUPPORT ISRAEL in ISRAEL'S WAR CRIMES. STOP THIS GENOCIDE & NOW!

Bo'az   January 11th, 2009 9:12 am ET

I live in Israel.
During the truce that was allowed Hamas has never failed to fire rockerts at us. we have gone to shelters 5 times, some times 3 some times 6 times. even during the first truce.

Hamas has seized control over the supplies, not allowing the people to take food, but this you will not publish!

Hamas has executed last week a 70 years old man who refused to surrnder his son from the rival Fatah faction, but this you will not publish

Israel has warned Hamas that the army would bomb their prison that was used to store rockets. Hamas people fled ignoring ands laughing at Fatah Palestinians held in their jail. the jail was bombed, and Hamas returned opening fire at families and prisoners trying to break out !! Killing two Palestinians and wounding 5, but this you will not publish !

We are fighting the face of evil, the true Satan of this world, and the world media is co-operating with them. There is no way to kill only the people firing rockets. their neighbors will be hurt too. This is war, and the Palestinian Hamas chose it, and are choosing not to end it.
The western world is the most hypocrite could be.

Bo'az   January 11th, 2009 9:39 am ET

Rod and Barham,
The UN agency in Gaza is held by palestinians- some of them Hamas members, and is used for their causes and propaganda in war and in peace.
I live near Gaza, and my house was near to sustain rocket fire.
We hear everything- every bomb, every rocket, every army shell, and during the truce several palestinian rockets were fired over our heads during almost every truce.
NEVER did we hear our army operating during truces.
Moreover, check how Hamas is preventing supplies from it's citizens in order to create and graven a humanitarian crisis.
Hamas has declared in arabic (not english that is quated in western press) that he will fight until the last drop of the palestinian people, but Hamas members themselves are hiding and covering, sending their children out. killing their own people without mercy.

When someone attacks me every day- EVERY DAY- E-V-E-R-Y D-A-Y with rockets and gunfire for years ! I am glad to attack them back, even if they cry out and publish pictures of their dead.
The palestinian people hoped to continue firing at us, and that the world will keep us back from reacting.

Hany, Montreal   January 11th, 2009 2:22 pm ET

” 828 palestinians dead, the dead included 235 children, 92 women, 62 elderly people, four local journalists and 12 medics. Another 3,340 people have been wounded”. That is 50% collateral damage, If all men deserve to die. Think about it for a second

jim   January 11th, 2009 4:07 pm ET

here is an idea to bo'az and all the other israli's tired of gaza resistance. quite the occupation and the blockade of gaza. allow palestinian people to live and prosper just as isralis do and allow the palestinian people to either return to the land israel stolen from them or comphensate them for it. just as german jews wanted to be comphensated for all the property that nazis had taken from them. it seems israli's only respect justice when it enrichens themselfs.

Tony Pate   January 13th, 2009 4:15 am ET

I could not believe the length of which Israels control of US admin and Bush read below.

....Olmert said Bush's agreement "embarrassed" Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice because the resolution was one that she had "cooked up, she organized, she formulated, she maneuvered," according to comments reported by Israel Radio.

"And she was left pretty embarrassed, abstaining on a draft resolution she organized herself," Olmert added.

What should we the American citizen make of this. How will this be handled by Bush administration. Israeli government totally dictates US Middle East policy to their likings coming directly by Israeli PM. WOW this is tough to swallow by the Bush officials to "Shame" one of their own....Condi.

Ashley   January 13th, 2009 9:25 am ET

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565
1) I am still mad at myself for giving Israel all the benefit of doubt before I watched this video.

2) Bo'az I sympathize with you. The problem is that we have not heard from the Palestinians. Israel is a developed country, with a good government and good infrastructure. Gaza is poor and geographically cut off from the world. ISRAEL IS NOT A CIVILIZED NATION. IT IS CONTROLLING MEDIA COVERAGE OF ITS WAR CRIMES.

3) There are 13 (3 civilians) dead on Israel's side and about a 1000 on the Palestinian side. Israel is not letting reporters in on purpose so that no one can here the horrific experience of the Palestinians ho live through this genocide. Look at the force Israel is using- its a WAR CRIME! I can only image what the Palestinians will have to say and trust me even in my conservative imagination it will be FAR more BRUTAL AND HORRIFIC then your note.

4) If someone slaps you would you kill them? I wouldn't! I would ask them why they slapped me! Israel was slapped and Israel is killing not only the ones who slapped Israel but killing their entire family. CRUEL, INHUMANE and CRIMINAL.

5) Peace is also a state of mind. Killing innocent people will not give Israel mental peace. STOP THESE WAR CRIMES!

LOVE & RESPECT, PEACE & FAIRNESS, EQUALITY & JUSTICE are what make life peaceful =)


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