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When China takes control of Hong Kong this July, Tung Chee-Hwa will be the chief executive. CNN's Mike Chinoy spoke with Mr. Tung about his upcoming job, and how Hong Kong could change under Chinese rule.

"A CONVERSATION WITH TUNG CHEE-HWA"

Tung

MIKE CHINOY: This is clearly one of the toughest jobs in the world. You've got to keep the people of Hong Kong happy, you've got to keep the government of China happy, you've got to keep an international community that has billions of dollars invested here, and wants to see Hong Kong's way of life preserved, happy. Why did you take the job and how do you think you're doing in your first couple of months since your appointment?

TUNG CHEE-HWA: It is going to be an enormously challenging job. Why did I take the job? As you know, initially I was a reluctant candidate, but you know I grew up in Hong Kong. Three generations of my family now live here. We are all very proud of what Hong Kong has done over last 50 years, and I want to make sure this continues way beyond 1997.

Under the concept of 'one country two systems' which is enshrined in the Basic Law, our mini-constitution, and also agreed to between Britain and China in the Joint Declaration. Hong Kong will be moving forward with great degree of autonomy and for first time in our recent history, Hong Kong people will be ruling Hong Kong, we will be truly masters of our own house. The fact is, that over that 150 year period, British governors were sent to Hong Kong without any prior consultation with the Hong Kong people. Actually my election as the first Chief Executive by a committee of 400 marked the beginning of a political process where people's voice in Hong Kong will be increasingly heard of.

The fact is that the Basic Law, the mini-constitution, was a document which was finalized after 4 years of consultation with the people of Hong Kong and the people on the mainland. It provides very specifically that during next 10 years, how Hong Kong's political system will evolve, although gradual, but increasingly participative by the people of Hong Kong. It also provides that by end of that 10-year period, by the year 2007, Hong Kong people will have the right to decide for themselves how they want to elect the Chief Executive, how they want to elect the legislature. The ultimate aim in the longer term, is going for universal suffrage. So the political system is actually quite clear and it is very good for us to move forward in this orderly and gradual manner.

CHINOY: I want to come back to question of the evolution of the political system in a minute, but let me ask you first, you talked to a lot of Chinese leaders about Hong Kong, most recently you were at Deng Xiaoping's funeral a few days ago. Are you convinced they really understand how Hong Kong society works, because it is so different in many ways than what the mainland is like.

TUNG: Well I feel very comfortable, I feel very confident they understand. In all my dealings in Beijing, I sense a tremendous amount of commitment to the 'one country two systems' concept. Now let me tell you this, Mike. When China began its reform program in 1978, few people in the world, including myself, could believe China would advance that much in such a short stage of time. How did it happen? Was it by luck? I don't think so. I think that it was the determination and there is still the determination there, there is also a tremendous intellect there, to guide the country forward. And I think the same intellect will be there, the determination will be there, to make sure one country two systems works in Hong Kong.

CHINOY: Yet China is a very different place than Hong Kong. Hong Kong has a long-standing tradition of the rule of law, it has a degree of press and intellectual freedom as well as information that does not really exist on the mainland. Corruption is not a problem here, and it is there. What do you see as biggest challenges to Hong Kong's autonomy? There is a great deal of concern, given how Chinese society works, for all its progress, that some of that could either seep over into Hong Kong, or that China could seek to dominate Hong Kong. What do you see as the biggest challenge to autonomy?

TUNG: I think the most important thing is for us to uphold the autonomy. And the best way to uphold the autonomy is to make sure the Basic Law, the 'one country two systems' concept, works. That is the most important for us. There is a great deal of determination in China to want to make sure this works, and there is great deal of determination in Hong Kong. We want to make sure this works also.

CHINOY: But how do you prevent Chinese organizations, people with clout, people trying to come in and essentially muscle their way in to get a piece of the Hong Kong pie...from doing so?

TUNG: We provide level playing fields for all, whether you are American, you are British, you are Chinese, you are Japanese, these will be the rules of the game. Our decision-making process in the government is very transparent. The rule of law is very clear. Whoever comes, they will be very welcome. But they must play by the rules of the game. I will make sure of that.

CHINOY: And you have no compunction about saying, I don't care who your connections are...

TUNG: I have no worry about that. Because that is what makes Hong Kong successful. Now again, Mike, if I may say so, why is this so important to China, why is this so important to Hong Kong? You know, Chinese leadership today are totally focused on creating wealth for the people, on wanting to make China a united country. The unification is important to the Chinese people. Now a successful transition in Hong Kong will ensure our prosperity. And Hong Kong can then continue to contribute to China's economic development. A successful transition is also a very good example for Taiwan, which will hopefully facilitate the unification of the country. So there is a lot of desire out there to make the transition work. And on top of that, the Beijing leadership is quite committed and quite caring about Hong Kong's people's welfare. So I have no doubt at all that high degree of autonomy will stay.

CHINOY: Mr. Tung, Elsie Leung, the woman you appointed as chief legal officer was quoted other day as saying that after the handover, Hong Kong people might not be allowed to go out in the street and say "Down with Li Peng", the Chinese premier. And the Chinese Foreign Minister Qian Qichen was quoted some months ago as saying that it would no longer be acceptable for Hong Kong journalists to make any personal attacks on Chinese leaders. That's raised some real questions about freedom of the press here. What is your view on this issue?

TUNG: Freedom of the press and freedom of speech is specifically guaranteed under Article 27 of the Basic Law. Freedom of assembly, freedom to demonstrate is also guaranteed. What is important for us to remember is that as a society matures it is sometimes better to offer constructive suggestions or criticism. But what is not good, what is not helpful, is to make slanderous or derogatory remarks, or personal attacks against other people. I don't think it's helpful. It is certainly not in the Chinese culture to be offensive and discourteous to other people. Now, having said that, I also want to draw your attention to the fact that under today's law, it is unlawful to make slanderous or derogatory remarks against the royal family. Now if law is adapted, and I say "if" because it is now being looked at, if that law is adapted, then to make similar remarks against Chinese leaders would be unlawful.

CHINOY: Yet when was the last time anyone in Hong Kong was prosecuted for saying anything about the royal family? Where in China, people who openly criticize the government have gone to jail.

TUNG: China is China, Hong Kong is Hong Kong. There will be laws in Hong Kong; these laws will be upheld.

CHINOY: So if the law says you can't make a slanderous attack against the head of state then somebody who criticizes the head of state in China could, after the first, find themselves....

TUNG: You have to differentiate between derogatory, slanderous, attacks, and constructive criticism. They're quite different.

CHINOY: I understand that, but I think concern here is that if you have these kinds of laws, given the track record in China, which unlike Hong Kong is a much more authoritarian political culture, that this provides an opening for people who simply disagree with the government, or want to make a political criticism, to have that law used against them, to silence them.

TUNG: That is not Hong Kong. We are going to be under one country two systems. We will go forward in our own way. We will have our own laws to uphold.

CHINOY: You have supported and the Chinese government has supported moves to repeal certain clauses in the Hong Kong Bill Of Rights. Can you explain why that was necessary, in your view?

TUNG: I think it is necessary to clarify some of the misconceptions around the world. Firstly, the misconception is that there will be no more Bill of Rights in Hong Kong. This is not true. After 1997, July 1 there will be the Bill of Rights. The argument was about whether the Bill Of Rights will be supreme to other laws of Hong Kong. Now we all know that should not be the case. So amendments will be made to the Bill of Rights to that effect. But the Bill of Rights itself will stay.

Now there was also a lot of discussion about the two other ordinances to which amendments were made to. First is the Public Order Ordinance. Now the amendment was made in 1995. Before the amendment was made, for people to demonstrate on the streets of Hong Kong you had to get police permit. After 1995, you don't need to. I submit the issue is really about balancing the rights of individuals vis a vis the order of our society. But where's the balance? Now I think we the Hong Kong people now we have the opportunity to decide for ourselves how to go about it. The fact is, in America, in Canada, in many cities in the U.K., you need police permission to demonstrate. Now if our conclusion is to ask police permission to demonstrate, it is not a roll back on civil liberty, it is really an issue of balancing between rights and order of our society. And we, the six million people of Hong Kong, we have to decide how to move forward. The other ordinance is about the Society Ordinance. Now the key issue there is whether Hong Kong's political parties shall be entitled or is it lawful to receive funds from overseas political organizations or other interested parties. And my answer is no, because Hong Kong politics should not be influenced by foreign countries. And may I suggest again this is not a question of human rights or rollback on civil liberties.

CHINOY: But on the questions... do you see a law and order problem in Hong Kong now that requires this change? Because the Commissioner Of Police himself has been quoted as saying that on the law and order front, it's not an issue.

TUNG: The Hong Kong people, we must decide for ourselves what is the right thing to do. And I will be consulting all the interested parties as to how we should move forward on these laws. I don't know whether you were here when Japanese consulate was broken into recently. If we had those laws, this wouldn't have happened.

CHINOY: But is that in and of itself enough of a threat, given the negative reaction among so many people and the perception that freedom is in danger and that's a view that's been echoed by even some of your own strong supporters. Is it worth making that gesture, given the negative signals it sends out?

TUNG: We the Hong Kong people must decide for ourselves what is the best way forward. And I will be consulting the people of Hong Kong. The issue is about finding a balance between rights of individuals who want to demonstrate, and the order of a society as a whole. And we've got to move forward on that basis. It is not a question about civil liberties.

CHINOY: Mr. Tung, how do you think the people of Hong Kong ought to view the events of Tiananmen Square in 1989. It was an event that had an enormous impact here, where people went out in the streets to protest, How do you think people should look at it. Should it be taught in the history books?

TUNG: What happened on June 4 is something nobody wanted to happen. But it did happen. I think history should be the judge. But let me say this, In the 7 years since Tiananmen Square, because of the social stability in China, the economic achievements China has made and the improvement of livelihood of Chinese people during those years has been astounding. and this is for the world to see. But let history judge how the events should be.

CHINOY: In the meantime, should the history classes here teach it, and if so, how?

TUNG: I think these are some of the issues we need to review as I move forward.

CHINOY: Do you have a personal opinion?

TUNG: Not at this moment.

CHINOY: Would you encourage the police to grant a permit if people want to stage the commemoration on June 4 of the day of the crackdown that has been held for every year since 1989? That's an issue that people are concerned about here.

TUNG: : Mike, any form of peaceful and lawful demonstration will be permitted in Hong Kong. Article 27 of the Basic Law stipulates that.

CHINOY:- Do you think commemorating Tiananmen will fall under that?

TUNG: Let me tell you. What I think is important is that as we move forward, we have to bear in mind that any peaceful and lawful assembly will be permitted-peaceful and lawful. We need to be sure that the public are not inconvenienced, the order of our society is preserved, and we can move forward.

CHINOY:- What is your view about what is the most appropriate kind of arrangement that should be put in place to elect the first elected legislature of the Special Administrative Region? You have a provisional legislature now. What do you think needs to be done to change existing electoral arrangements to have that vote?

TUNG: Well, I think the first legislature election will be held in 1998. And obviously, we'd like it to be as early as we can. But Mike it is in fact very clearly stipulated in the basic law how the first legislature should be constructed. Twenty will be through directly elected seats, 30 would be through functional constituencies, 10 shall be through election committees. Now, as to how then these individual groups are being chosen, or elected, that is now being debated by the Preparatory Committee. And obviously the SAR Government is looking to it. So, we are well on the way preparing for that election which will happen during the first half of 1998.

CHINOY: Let me get back to a fundamental anxiety that permeates all the discussion, particularly international, about Hong Kong. China, for all its progress, remains an authoritarian state. I was in Beijing covering Deng's funeral the other day. People who went out into Tiananmen Square with a wreath were hustled away by police. The fear is, even with 'one country, two systems' that some of the qualities of the Chinese political system, the control on information, the control on the press and so on, are going to seep in here. Do you acknowledge the legitimacy of that anxiety, and what specifically can you say to people to put their minds at ease?

TUNG: : Mike, you are right. They are some concern. But let me tell you what are the real concerns of the 6.5 million people of Hong Kong. If you read the polls really carefully, the real concern is about housing. We have a spiraling cost of housing, and scarcity of land which has created a problem. We have a problem with mismatch of skills, education. We have problems with providing better for the aged. We have a problem looking after those who are now increasing in number, living under the poverty line. These are some of the problems we have to deal with. These are the REAL problems which people care about.

CHINOY: More than political liberty?

TUNG: Yes. Because if you look at the Post carefully, these are the real issues. Let me tell you Mike, what I'm concerned about. How do we maintain our economic vibrancy? Our inflation has been higher for almost 10 years than most of the Western developed nations. How do we keep our competitiveness? And therefore securing the future for our children and grandchildren? These are the real, real worries, and I will not be detracted from these very very important issues. Because at the end of the day, Mike, I want to see a Hong Kong which is stable, prosperous, compassionate and democratic. And I want to see a Hong Kong which is participating and contributing to the modernization of China- as it becomes a leader amongst the other nations of the world. So these are the real important issues we have to address.

CHINOY: Mr. Tung, I need to stop you there. Thank you very very much for joining me today. I've been speaking to Tung Chee-Hwa, the man who has the historic role of being the first Chief Executive in Hong Kong, after it reverts back to Chinese sovereignty this summer. I'm Mike Chinoy, CNN in Hong Kong.

 
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