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Pelosi and President Trump Violated Constitution, Oath Of Office; President Trump Tweets Impeach Me Fast; Speaker Pelosi, No Choice But To Move Forward With Articles Of Impeachment; Ukrainian Lawmakers Says He Met With Giuliani In Kiev; Prosecutors Picked By Barr To Investigate Russia Probe Finds No Evidence Of Spy Conspiracy; Republican And The Alternate Fact Universe; President's Defenders Backing Debunked Conspiracy Theories And Sticking By Him; Everyone's Angry, The Politics Of Being All Fired Up. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired December 5, 2019 - 22:00   ET





JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: With that, madam speaker, thank you for joining us tonight, we really appreciate it. Thank you to our studio audience for your wonderful questions. Up next is CNN Tonight with Don Lemon. That starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: All right. Jake Tapper, thank you very much. You saw the House speaker. I'm Don Lemon, by the way. You saw the House speaker raising her right hand and saying, taking the oath of office, and saying that's what this is about. On the day -- a very busy day for her -- on the very day she announced that the House will proceed with the articles of impeachment against President Trump, tonight doubling down, saying the president violated the Constitution and his oath of office.

That president -- President Trump, has undermined the integrity of our electoral process, and that if he is not stopped, that he'll continue to do so. Pelosi said that by moving forward with the articles of impeachment, Congress is honoring its oath to defend the Constitution.


Let's talk now, there they are, right in front of us, it was very interesting, it was all about the Constitution, she's saying, it's not about the election. Gloria Borger, Mark Preston, Mia Malika Henderson. Thank you so much for joining us. I thought it is a fascinating town hall, Gloria, a historic day, the House speaker said that she would have no regrets if the exit polls showed that in 2020 after the election, that pursuing impeachment helped to reelect Donald Trump if that did happen. She did say though to one of the questioners, let's hope -- let's not even, you know, fathom that that does happen. But, she didn't want to get ahead of today, does she?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: No, she did and Jake Tapper tried to get her to say whether she personally believes that the House should impeach Trump. And we know from what she said that's probably what she believes, but she stopped short of doing that. And I think that's because she understands this moment. She has said that she is not counting votes among Democrats in the House, she's not what we call whipping this vote, she's letting people vote their conscience.

And she is saying, look, this isn't about politics, it's about the Constitution. We heard a lot of talk tonight about the founding fathers, about their vision. And as she said, that she passed a threshold today, when she said, OK, we need to write these articles of impeachment, but when Jake tried to sort of figure out what might be in those articles, and we have a general idea from listening to the Judiciary Committee, of course, she wouldn't give that away either. She said, you know, it's kind of a group effort to compose these articles. So, she doesn't want to get ahead of her caucus, but we sure know what direction they're headed in.

LEMON: Very serious tone.


LEMON: Very serious tone this evening. Mark Preston, you know, I just want to play this moment, I want you to react to this, from tonight's town hall, reacting -- Nancy Pelosi reacting to the president saying that she had a nervous fit this morning. Watch this.


REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): The president is a master at projecting. When he calls somebody nervous, he's the nervous one. When he suspects somebody's not praying, he's probably not praying. But I do pray for him because he is the president of the United States and I pray that God will open his heart to meeting the needs of people in our country.


LEMON: She did go on -- went on to say what her prayers were for the president, she prayed for his family, she prayed for his safety, she prayed for his health. Is she wrong, Mark?

MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't think she's wrong at all. And in fact she even went on to say that even more reason so to pray for him because he doesn't believe her, meaning that she's taking pity on him.

Look, Nancy Pelosi was put into a very interesting position today where she had to go out and defend her faith. And often you don't see Democrats being put into that position, but she chose to bring that up and to try to put this into context, to try to put everything into context and show that this isn't personal. And when you tie that into how she answered today about how methodically the House is going to go through these impeachment articles, how much effort has gone into it, that this in fact is not a rush to judgment, that she is somebody who has been saying that we need to slow down a little bit, let's make sure we get this right. I think that we heard that not only in her very -- you know, answers

that had to deal with the impeachment, but she also answered that way when she was talking about how she was feeling inside. Now whether or not people believe that, I'll leave that up to them. But it was certainly an interesting way to answer that question, and an interesting, you know, back and forth between two very powerful leaders at this time in our history.

LEMON: Yes. As Gloria mentioned, Nia, she didn't want to talk about specific articles of impeachment tonight. How high are the stakes for Democrats as they consider how broad or how narrow to make those articles?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Yeah, I mean, that's been a big question, right, particularly if you are one of these Democrats in these districts where Trump won in 2016, the so- called front line districts, I think there are 43 of them, in the House. Those folks are some of the ones that tip the balance, right?

There were a lot of Democrats who wanted Trump to be impeached, for the House to move forward with articles of impeachment and investigation right after the Mueller report, right after the Mueller testimony. But Ukraine made it clear, right? That was the difference- maker for not only Nancy Pelosi, a lot of those front line Democrats, and obviously Adam Schiff, but this is something they'll have to be wrestling with. Do they bring in the Mueller report?

LEMON: Right.

HENDERSON: Do they bring in any of the obstruction instances in the Mueller report, part two, 10 or 11 instances of the president interfering, firing James Comey, may be wanting to fire Mueller as well. So, that's a big question. And what was interesting here is, you know, if you think about the Clinton impeachment, it very much was sort of Newt Gingrich versus Bill Clinton.


And here you have a sense that Nancy Pelosi doesn't want to make this about herself, right. She said, the times have found us. That last question, the woman asked about impeachment, this is an historic day, what do you want to be remembered for? She said she wanted to be remembered for other things, the affordable care act.

So this is something, it's up to her caucus, Adam Schiff is obviously an important figure here, Nadler has a role in this as well. So, and she obviously wants to talk about other things that her caucus is doing like those pieces of legislation, she said 400 on the Senate at this point on Mitch McConnell's desk.

LEMON: Yes, it seems that phone call was a turning point for a lot of people. You know, Gloria, how much of this process is being personally driven by the speaker, I would imagine a lot of it, right. Because she is the leader, is she the hidden hand behind this process?

BORGER: I think Nancy Pelosi is someone who listens to people and remember, I was just thinking about this since I was watching the town hall, not just over a year ago people were saying Nancy Pelosi shouldn't be speaker, she couldn't be speaker, why would we have her as speaker.

LEMON: She's too divisive.

BORGER: She's old, yes, she's divisive, she's this, she does not in touch with the younger generation, et cetera, et cetera. And then we have these iterations of her meeting with AOC and now they're friends, right? We thought, oh, they'll never get along. Nancy Pelosi was kind of made for this in a funny way. And she has the gravity and she is a hidden hand in a way that allows people to come to a decision when they're together with her, when the moderates in the House that Nia was talking about, wrote an op-ed and said this Ukraine thing crosses the line, Nancy Pelosi announced, I believe it was within a day or so.


BORGER: That they had to pursue this. And so I think she leads by listening and following. I'm not going to say women do that, but following her caucus.

LEMON: Wait. What are you saying, Gloria!

BORGER: And I think you hear that in the way she has risen to the gravity of the moment.

LEMON: I think, Mark, she's saying, I don't need directions. I know where I'm going.

PRESTON: She certainly does. You know, Don, what's interesting about Nancy Pelosi, to pick up on what Gloria was saying right now, if you go back to day one, she was never pushing for impeachment. She never was.

LEMON: Not at all.

PRESTON: She was always the one, the governor, she was the one meaning slowing it down a little bit, let's be very methodical about it. And by doing so --

LEMON: She thought the best way to do it initially was to vote him out of office.

BORGER: Exactly.

LEMON: But go on.

PRESTON: Understandably so, because of where she is on the political spectrum. But when it comes to the governing of the House and understanding what the political ramifications are for everybody in her caucus, all the Democrats, whether they be liberal or centrists or even more conservative Democrats, the bottom line is she has held together a caucus that was very much divided. And as they head into this impeachment vote, they're going to be united. And that really does say something about her leadership through this. LEMON: Thank you all.

HENDERSON: I thought -- the comment that she doesn't think 2020 is going to be about impeachment I thought was fascinating as well.

LEMON: I got to go Nia. Great. Thank you, I appreciate it, see you guys soon.

BORGER: All right, thanks, Don.

LEMON: President Trump starting his day with a tweet calling on Democrats to impeach him fast and Nancy Pelosi is giving him just what he says he wants. More on that, that's next.



LEMON: So, the president tweeting this morning, of course tweeting, if you're going to impeach me, do it now, fast. Hey, the man wants what he wants, right? One hour after that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says this.


PELOSI: Today I am asking our chairmen to proceed with articles of impeachment.


LEMON: How many times do I have to say it? Be careful what you wish for. And there is this dispatch from the alternative or alternate universe, courtesy of Kellyanne Conway who had an interesting rationalization for the president's tweet.


KELLYANNE CONWAY, WHITE HOUSE COUNSELOR: Maybe he's calling their bluff.


LEMON: Well, if he was, that sure backfired. And the president who started his day calling for Congress to impeach him fast was back to the same old song, calling the whole thing a hoax.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's a hoax. It's a hoax. It's a big fat hoax.


LEMON: Well, that material is just so, so tired. He's going to need more of a defense than that. Once we see exactly what those articles of impeachment will be and start to get answers to another big question looming over all of this, what happens if impeachment moves to the Senate?

Here is the thing. The Senate gets to make the rules. And a lot could change before the trial actually gets under way. But there are some things that we do know. The House votes on managers who act as prosecutors and present evidence in the Senate trial. The chief justice of the Supreme Court, John Roberts, would be sworn in to preside over everything and would then swear in Senators who would then serve as jurors.

Which raises a really interesting question. Will Senators be allowed to speak? As the rules stand right now, and the rules could change though, the answer is no. They could submit questions but like jurors in any courtroom, they cannot speak. And let's face it, there are a lot of Senators who love to speak.


SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Senators will not be allowed to speak which should be good therapy for a number of them.


LEMON: Another big question. Will witnesses testify in person on the Senate floor? Could Republicans call Hunter Biden? Could they call the whistleblower? The Republicans telling CNN's Phil Mattingly, quote, this could go off the rails very quickly. Democrats saying there's every chance someone rolls a hand grenade in to the center of this process. That sounds promising.

And then there's the question of, when exactly the trial will take place. Nothing is set in stone. But Senators are assuming it will start the first week in January and they're predicting it could take anywhere from three to six weeks, which is probably why the 2020 Senate calendar leaves out the month of January.

Senate rules say they must be in session six days a week during the trial, which sure throws a monkey wrench into the campaign plans of Senators vying to run against the president.

So, let's get some perspective on all of this. John Dean is here. John, you know this all too well, this must be deja vu for you. Thank you for joining us. You believe that that House Speaker Nancy Pelosi should have the articles of impeachment drawn up but not send them to the Senate? Can you explain why you're saying that?


JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I tweeted that, because it's one of the thoughts I had. There is big push to get this done quickly. There's also a debate going on between Schumer and Mitch McConnell about what the rules should be and they've been unable to reach agreement. And it looks like Mitch McConnell is inclined to just do it his way and not let Schumer have any play at all. What I think Nancy Pelosi has some real leverage on this. She doesn't have to send articles of impeachment to the Senate. What happens, Don, after there's a vote on the articles, they adopt a

resolution where they select managers and then they decide when they're going to send the managers over to the Senate. So there's a flexibility in the process where she could say, listen, let's just hold these articles here until the Senate gets its act together and that could last right through the campaign as far as her powers. It's not unlike what Mitch McConnell did when he was given a Supreme Court nomination and he didn't want to have a hearing.

LEMON: You mentioned that, you talked about Merrick Garland's SCOTUS nomination. How is it similar? How is it different, I mean, it's -- ?

DEAN: Well, the process has flexibility built into it. Some can see it as an abuse of the process. Some can see it as use of the process. It all comes from your point of view. But I think that we shouldn't forget that if Nancy Pelosi decides she wants to exercise some leverage in this, she's got it and she can tell, you know, the Senate, get your act together, do it fairly, or I'm going to sit on these through the campaign.

LEMON: Interesting. How do you think Republicans would react to that if she did that?

DEAN: They would have a tizzy.


LEMON: Is that an official term, a tizzy?

DEAN: They would say your case is so weak you can't dare bring it to the Senate. They would make all kinds of claims. But the problem is, those would be hanging over a lot of Senators who are running for reelection.

LEMON: Who have their seats up for grabs in 2020.

DEAN: And also it would be hanging over the president.

LEMON: Yes, but what would be the impact of the people -- the Senators whose seats are up for grabs in 2020?

DEAN: Well, I think it could have a -- it could be trouble for them if they don't want to vote for impeachment. A lot of people, when they look at what's in those articles or what will be in those articles, they are going to be horrified and they haven't really focused on this. If you bring these down to the state level and they become state campaign issues, those Senators are going to vote right.

LEMON: Yes. John Dean, I appreciate your time. Thank you, sir.

DEAN: Thank you.

LEMON: Rudy Giuliani trying to prop up a debunked conspiracy theory in Ukraine as an upcoming DOJ report is expected to undercut Attorney General Bill Barr. Seems when the truth is not on your side, you can just, you know, make stuff up. Guess who's here? Anthony Scaramucci, you know all about this, he weighs in, next.





LEMON: Rudy Giuliani, making the rounds in -- wait for it -- Ukraine. As House Democrats move forward with articles of impeachment, the Ukrainian lawmaker posting pictures, that's right, posting pictures on Facebook today, saying he met with the president's personal lawyer in Kiev. Let's discuss now. Anthony Scaramucci is here.

SCARAMUCCI: Good to be here for the holidays.

LEMON: Good to see you. What the hell is going on? I mean, this is a (INAUDIBLE), lawmaker who has pushed debunked conspiracy theories about Ukraine election and the Bidens, went to a school that trains Russian spies. What is Giuliani's thinking?

SCARAMUCCI: So, listen, I mean, there is one play here if they want to preserve President Trump, and that is to use the whole Russian disinformation campaign to try to prop him up and have him maintain power. But I think what you just saw was a real patriot for an hour on your network which basically described what it actually happened and once the articles of impeachment are posted up, Don, I believe that those Republican Senators, I do believe this, many of them will look at that and say, wait a minute, I don't want to be known forever in my family's legacy, is that I backed this traitor who disavowed the American Constitution. I just don't want to be known by that.

And I think her game theory of what is about to happen is going to eventually unfold, he will leave office. He will either resign from office or he will say he's not running for reelection. And so, you know, the mayor, you know, I'm good friends with him, I wish the mayor well, he can do that, they can do the what-about-ism, if they want, which, you know, the Soviet stood for many years trying to keep the Soviet Union together. But it's coming down. You know, you saw over the last week, the president is literally the most hated person in the civilization.

LEMON: Or laughed at.

SCARAMUCCI: Yes. I mean, so he's ridiculed, and you know, he's hated across the globe.

LEMON: I got to get (INAUDIBLE).

SCARAMUCCI: He got maybe 25 to 35 percent of the Americans that are still supporting him, but many of them hate him.

LEMON: Listen, this is really important, because sources are telling CNN that the Attorney General Bill Barr's hand-picked prosecutor told the DOJ inspector general there is no evidence that U.S. Intelligence agencies planted spies in the Trump campaign. That goes against the president and Barr himself. I want you to listen to what Barr said in April. Watch this.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you're not suggesting, though, that spying occurred?

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I don't -- well, uh, I guess you could -- I think there's -- spying did occur.


LEMON: What does it say that Barr's own agency is going against him, the inspector general, and then --

SCARAMUCCI: So, I don't know him. But it looks like he is making a decision that he think he is the last stand, these are the last people, the firewall of what ultimately is Trump's America. And so he's standing there with that level of orthodoxy and he's willing to say and do whatever he thinks is necessary to curve the rule of law to allow that to persist.

But I think what you're learning about our country, which is the most phenomenal thing about the country that there are so many checks and balances inside the system that when you do a system check, you get an inspector general involved, it looks like the system is by and large working the way someone like Fiona Hill would work inside the system.

LEMON: The inspector general's report due out on Monday believed to say that the start of the Russia investigation was legally sound. Anthony, multiple government officials testified there is no evidence that Ukraine tried to meddle in the 2016 election, no evidence of wrongdoing by the Bidens. Why do the president's allies insist in retrofitting reality here?

SCARAMUCCI: Yes, because, again, it's what-about-ism. If we can try hook this to the Ukrainians, we can get the gun off the bird of what happened as it related to Russia, and we can get the gun back on the notion that the president was calling President Zelensky to talk about Ukrainian corruption. So, that's what they're trying to do. It's not going to work.

And I do applaud Senator Graham and Senator Romney yesterday who basically had to admit to everybody that, look, we've looked at the intelligence, we've looked at the information and the stuff about the Ukraine is a nonsense. And so again, it's going to be down to each person, their last name, they'll have to think about their parents, think about their legacy for their children and their grandchildren, and say, wait a minute, I'm going to back this guy, he's now rolling in a barrel off of Niagara Falls, he's a traitor and he's a criminal, and so I'm going to back him for partisan purposes or am I going to do the right thing for the country that Howard Baker and Barry Goldwater did, 48, 47 years ago. That's what's going to happen.

LEMON: Let me ask you, before we ran out of time. Folks in the White House, you've got the Mulvaney's, you've got the Pompeo's, You've got the Barr's, is still there, the only ones, so, I guess who will continue to do what the president says or wants. If you're in the White House and you're the communications Director, and you've got all these people saying, wait for the Durham report, wait for the Horowitz report, and then the Ukraine, you got this conspiracy theory what would you --

SCARAMUCCI: I was only there for 11 day which was 12 days longer that I should have been there, to be honest.

LEMON: I know, but if you were the communications director.

SCARAMUCCI: So, I would have to be honest with the guys. See, that's why I could never have lasted, because, you know, guys like General Kelley, Jim Mattis, they were honest with the guys, so they're all gone. But if you look at them, this is a nightmare and you got to resign or you got to tell people you're not running for reelection, so that you can save your party, because he's not willing to do that. Richard Nixon did that, he's not willing to do that. He wants to bring the whole system down.

LEMON: Thank you. Good to see you.

SCARAMUCCI: All right, good to see you.

LEMON: Rudy Giuliani isn't the only one pushing a counter narrative. How the president's favorite television network is in overdrive trying to create an alternative fact universe. That's next.



LEMON: As impeachment pressure on President Trump ramps up, his defenders are heating up their rhetoric with words like sham, hoax, coup, and a whole lot of debunked conspiracy theories. Are they creating an alternative fact universe for their audience? Here now to discuss, Quin Hillyer. Quin Hillyer is a senior commentary writer for the Washington Examiner. We are so happy to have you here.

Quin, I've got to tell you, I read this scathing piece that you wrote, it's very good, it was an opinion piece you wrote about Senator John Kennedy from my home state of Louisiana. You went to school with him at Loyola in the '90s. And you write, now, though, he has turned into Trump's pet parakeet, repeating whatever outrageous lines the president emits about how Ukraine, not Russia, was the real culprit in systematically interfering in the 2016 elections. What was he like when you knew him and how has Trump changed him?

QUIN HILLYER, SENIOR COMMENTARY WRITER, "WASHINGTON EXAMINER": Well, this was a sort of a graduate seminar course, Loyola Institute of Politics. And John was a heck of a nice guy. But he was an Oxford student. He had been at Oxford. He had been editor of the University of the University of Virginia law review. He was sort of patrician and a little bit preppy, he had a very mild southern accent. But he was certainly not the same heavy accented southern good old boy that he portrays now. It's like a 180-degree difference in personality.

LEMON: So, you think he puts on that accent for a reason? Do you think that's all --

HILLYER: Yes, well, you know, the Senate is full of stuffed shirt. And he's a very smart guy, and he probably figured the way to stand out is by acting as southern as he could. And by being the caricature of the clever, smart, good old boy. And that way he could get national attention. And so that's what he's doing. But I've got to tell you, he doesn't sound or act anything like the guy that was in my institute of politics class.

LEMON: It's part of a much bigger problem in our politics, though, if you're watching the impeachment or any other news about President Trump's behavior on Fox News, there's a whole alternatively reality. I want you to listen to this.



SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: The first phase of the Democrats' impeachment coup attempt, the Schiff show, a disaster.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Schiff report is an abuse because of the Ukraine sham and all the false allegations there.

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX HOST: There was no collusion, Russia didn't hack our democracy. The whole thing was a talking pint -- a ludicrous talking point invented by the Hillary Clinton campaign.

HANNITY: -- the so-called Trump/Ukraine impeachment inquiry report, it's really just a coup report. The report is chock-full of nothing but conspiracy theories, left wing opinions, conjecture, hearsay witnesses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason we're talking about Ukraine is because Joe Biden and his son were involved in something very, very shady.

HANNITY: We have one fact witness said yes, I don't want a quid pro quo.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pelosi and her whacked-out caucus on a vengeful high, they're tripping on a Ukraine hallucinogenic.


LEMON: So Fox is pushing it. But I mean, Republicans for the most part appear to be going along with these lies. Do you agree, and if so, why?

HILLYER: They're not telling the truth. I mean, first of all, to call the whole Russian thing a hoax is absurd. Almost the entire first half of the Mueller report was not about whether or not Donald Trump colluded with Russia. It was about all the horrendously bad things Russia did, systematically, to interfere with our election.

And that was the really important part of the Mueller report. And it is indisputably accurate. And all of our intelligence agencies have said so. For Tucker Carlson and all these people to say that it was all a hoax, that's just a flat-out lie.

And again, for them now to say that there's no new evidence coming out from these impeachment hearings, again, that's a lie. There have been a dozen witnesses adding lots of new evidence. The question is not whether there is evidence. The question is not whether Trump did something inappropriate. The question is, is it inappropriate enough to impeach. But to not even acknowledge that there was some rather inappropriate stuff, is just to literally tell the American people a lie.

LEMON: Do you think people who watch Fox News are more ill-informed than people who don't, because -- at least they are not --

HILLYER: No, I'm not about to say that.

LEMON: But I'm just wondering, because at least they're not listening to the conspiracy theories and they have the possibility of being able to make up their mind without listening to the conspiracy theories night after night.

HILLYER: I'm not here to -

LEMON: Or even on conservative media, I don't want to pick on Fox News, I'm using them as an example of conservative media, people who spout these conspiracy theories. But go on, sorry.

HILLYER: Right. Well, look, I'm a conservative columnist. I've been a movement conservative for more than 40 years. So, I sort of like conservative media. But I just wish that they would tell the truth. I mean, that's what gets me, is I see conservative politicians out there just mouthing the same old words about hoax and swamp and witch hunt. And it's not the truth. Again, you can have a different opinion about whether something is impeachable. But don't deny the facts.

LEMON: 100 percent I agree with you.

HILLYER: And it's very disturbing for somebody like I did who grew up thinking that the number one important thing about people in politics is whether or not they have integrity. And when we lose that, we're on a very bad slippery slope.

LEMON: Well, Quin, I really appreciate your honesty and your candor. And you're welcome to come back any time, and I really enjoyed your piece and I enjoy your writing. And thank you so much. I enjoy your integrity, thank you so much.

HILLYER: Thank you, Don, I appreciate it.

LEMON: Seems like everybody is angry these days. But what role does anger play in our politics?


REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER: Don't mess with me when it comes to words like that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're selling access to the president just like he was.

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You're a damn liar, man.


LEMON: The politics of being all fired up, next.



LEMON: Is it just me or is everybody angry these days?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you hate the president, Madam Speaker?

PELOSI: I don't hate anybody.

BIDEN: You're a damn liar, man. That's not true.

TURLEY: My Republican friends are mad. My Democratic friends are mad.

PELOSI: So don't you accused me of being (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not accused you.

PELOSI: You did. You did.

BIDEN: I dint said, I set up my son to work in an oil company. Isn't that what you said?

TURLEY: My wife is mad. My kids are mad. Even my dog seems mad.

PELOSI: So, don't mess with me when it comes to words like that.

BIDEN: I have two words, straight jack.


LEMON: Wow. That is all, I'm not going to take anymore. Let's discuss. Mitch Landrieu, I feel like I'm watching network, right. Good to see you.


LEMON: Everybody is so angry and frustrated. Reporters who covered Pelosi for decades say they had never seen her that mad. What is happening?


LANDRIEU: Well, we're in a very complicated difficult time. You know, the future of the country is at stake. You know, folks are trying to do what they think is the right thing to do. And everybody is at each other's throats and my expectations is that it's going to get hotter, it's not going to get colder. I just think that's the way it's going to be, I think we are in for a ride for the next year that's going to be rough.

LEMON: I want to play more from that exchange with Nancy Pelosi, watch this.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you hate the president, Madam Speaker?

PELOSI: I don't hate anybody. I was raised in a Catholic house, we don't hate anybody. Not anybody in the world.

I resent you're using the word hate in a sentence that addresses me. I don't hate anyone. I was raised in a way that is full -- heart full of love and always pray for the president. And I still pray for the president. I pray for the president all the time. So, don't mess with me when it comes to words like that.


LEMON: Well, right after that the president attacked her in a tweet. Saying that he had -- that she had a nervous fit. Does her getting angry play into his hands do you think or?

LANDRIEU: No, I don't think so. I think speaker -- well, think about it. Here's Speaker Pelosi doing what she thinks is her duty to make sure that the Republicans stand strong and does what that Republic stands strong, it does what it's supposed to do. While there are 20 Senators who have said irrespective of what they hear, you know, they are not going to do what the law requires them to do and this journalist basically says, what she's doing it because she must hate the President as opposed to doing what her duty is. And that would frustrate you. And I think it's OK to get frustrated, especially, you know, when you're accused of doing something that's not fair or not right. It's OK, as long you are being authentic about it, you're not being (INAUDIBLE), and you are not trying to mislead anybody.

LEMON: Yes. I want to play more from that exchange with Joe Biden that he had with that voter who questioned his age, before bringing up his son Hunter Biden. Watch this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- but you on the other hand sent your son over there. In order to get access for the public for the president. So, you're, you're selling access to the president just like he was.

BIDEN: You're a damn liar, man. That's not true. And no one has ever said that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw it on the TV.

BIDEN: You've seen it on the TV. No, I know you did. (INAUDIBLE)

Let him go. Let him go. The reason I'm running is because I have been around a long time and (INAUDIBLE). And I get things done. That's why I'm running. And you want to check my sheet line. Let's do push-ups together, man. Let's do this run. Whatever you want to do.


No one has said my son has done anything wrong. And I did not in any occasion and no one has ever said it. Not one time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't say you were doing anything wrong.

BIDEN: You said, I set up my son to work in an oil company. Isn't that what you said? Get your words straight, Jack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like you don't have any more backbone than Trump does.


LEMON: Righteous anger. What do you think?

LANDRIEU: Yes. I think so. I think, listen, it's a rough and tumble out there. You are on the campaign trail, you're running into people that has strong opinions about things. I think voters expect you to push back. Now, you know, it's everybody is human and everybody is going to mess up from time to time. But it really is kind of sweet to be questioned. These two people who have done this on occasion to the president who basically every 15 minutes is popping off on a tweet. I mean, it's just kind of a weird situation to be in right now.

LEMON: What do we call it? Indignant, right? I don't know if --

LANDRIEU: Well, I've been -- you know this, when I was mayor of the city, I went through a lot of community meetings and people get after you. And from time to time you have to push back. And I think there's a certain way to do it. There's a certain constructive way to do it. Sometimes we do it in an unconstructive way

LEMON: Well, there's a difference thought, but -- there's a difference between angry though, because -- I think Nancy Pelosi's moments. Let me give her respect. The House speaker moment was more of a how dare you, right. And I don't know if that's necessarily anger. And I think to be honest, finally people are saying that's what they want from Joe Biden. Finally, they want someone -- if you're going to run for president against Donald Trump they want to see someone who can stand up against Donald Trump and beat him. Go on, I'm sorry.

LANDRIEU: Well, I think President Trump, you know, said very early if you hit me, I'm going to hit you back. You know, and I might hit you first. And I don't think that you can bring a knife to a gunfight. And so I do think in some instances, people like to see that level of it. But again, you have to be constructive. I have made mistakes like that and popped off on people and going home and hit myself in the head and said, you know what, that really wasn't a constructive response.

But from time to time my anger and my frustration I think was rightly directed to people that were accusing you of doing things that you didn't do. And I think that's OK. I mean, as long as you're being a fully human and authentic about it. You know, a swing every now and then doesn't hurt.