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THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER

Trump Reverses Decision on Complete U.S. Troop Withdrawal From Syria; Impeachment Inquiry Testimony Continues. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired October 14, 2019 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And we start today with our politics lead.

Right now, the woman who spent two years as President Trump's top Russia adviser is nearing her eighth hour testifying behind closed doors in the impeachment inquiry.

Fiona Hill today became the first person who worked in the White House to appear before the Democratic-led committees that are investigating President Trump. Hill left her job days before President Trump called the president of Ukraine and mentioned a favor before bringing up Joe Biden and his son, a call that sparked the Democrats' impeachment inquiry, as CNN's Lauren Fox reports from Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER (voice-over): The impeachment inquiry kicking off today with high-profile testimony from the president's former top adviser Fiona Hill.

Hill is the first person from the White House to testify in the inquiry trying to determine if President Trump pressured Ukraine to investigate his political rival Joe Biden in exchange for military aid.

Democrats hope the closed-door hearing will shed light on what role the president's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, played in influencing Ukraine's government. Hill was no longer serving as President Trump's top Russian adviser at the time of the controversial July 25 call with the Ukrainian president.

But, according to "The New York Times," part of her testimony today is expected to include that Giuliani was running a shadow diplomacy effort in Ukraine.

House Republicans blasting House Intel Committee Chairman Adam Schiff for issuing a subpoena to Hill, despite her willingness to testify.

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): She was going to come. She had agreed to come. She was going to come voluntarily. But he's going to subpoena her, I believe, so he can ask certain questions and, again, keep those secret, except for the certain things that he wants to leak. FOX: One official working on the inquiry tells CNN the subpoena was

necessary because the White House has prevented so many witnesses from testifying.

This as a slew of deadlines for administration officials to hand over documents hits this week, and private hearings are expected to ramp up. On Thursday, Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, is also set to testify under subpoena, where, according to "The Washington Post," he will allegedly tell members the president directed him to send a text message stating there was no quid pro quo when pressed on why the U.S. was withholding nearly $400 million in military aid to Ukraine.

"The Post" also reporting Sondland will testify he had no idea whether the president was telling him the truth.

Deputy Assistant Secretary of State George Kent and the counsel to the State Department, Ulrich Brechbuhl, are also scheduled to appear on Capitol Hill this week, though it's unclear if they will show.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOX: Her testimony, of course, is still ongoing on Capitol Hill, but we do know one detail, Brianna.

Fiona Hill told members in that briefing today that she supported Marie Yovanovitch, the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, and she said -- she shed some details about precisely what happened in her removal from that post over the spring -- Brianna.

KEILAR: That will be very interesting for those Congress -- members of Congress to hear. Lauren Fox, thank you so much on Capitol Hill for us.

All right, let's discuss all of this.

Jeremy Diamond, to you first.

Is the White House worried about this testimony from Fiona Hill?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Look, she certainly is going to be able to provide a lot of key details about what unfolded in the weeks and months before the president's call with the Ukrainian president.

I'm told that she actually stepped down from her position at the White House a few days before that call actually took place. But as far as everything regarding the quid pro quo and questions around that, those exchanges between those three ambassadors that we saw in text messages, Fiona Hill would presumably have been privy to all of those discussions, and certainly have been aware of the extent to which the White House was really pressuring the Ukrainian government to carry out these investigations and what was being withheld as a result.

KEILAR: And, Vivian, according to "The New York Times" -- quote -- "Ms. Hill will testify that, while she was the president's top adviser on Russia and Ukraine, she was cut out of the loop, as Mr. Giuliani and others ran a shadow diplomacy intended to benefit Mr. Trump's political position, according to the person informed about her account."

Does this strengthen Democrats argument for impeachment? Or is this something that gives President Trump just a way to blame his then personal, potentially currently, personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani?

VIVIAN SALAMA, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": I think they're both going to use it to their advantage, frankly.

And I have heard that from a number of officials as well, that, in the spring, especially, they started to catch on to the fact that Giuliani was operating in a way in Ukraine that basically undermined some of the efforts that they were trying to accomplish and some of the just basic diplomacy that they were trying to engage in.

And they were really cut out of the process. We hear that from officials spanning the government, not just someone like Fiona Hill at the NSC.

And so this was obviously a major concern for them. But, at the end of the day., the Republicans, the White House in particular, is going to look at this and say, well, she obviously doesn't know anything, so why should we trust the testimony of someone who alleges that she was cut out of the process? If she was cut out, she may not know.

[16:05:11]

And so both sides are obviously going to try to use this to their advantage.

KEILAR: What do you think about, I mean, this idea of there being a shadow diplomat and shadow diplomacy conducted by Rudy Giuliani in Ukraine? It's pretty stunning.

MARY KATHARINE HAM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it's shady, but actually not that shadowy, because he keeps talking about it.

KEILAR: That's a good point.

HAM: The weird thing about the Trump administration is they just do bad things, and they say it.

(CROSSTALK)

KEILAR: But also knowing now that people have been marginalized as he conducts this.

HAM: But I do think there's a question like as to how much she knows and does not know.

And part of that is that a lot of these depositions are happening in private, and little bits are leaked. And I think -- I do think, in a time when people are very skeptical of the processes of these things, it would help to have as much of this out in public as possible, which is one of the reasons I wish they would just vote to just go ahead and do an official inquiry and do it that way.

Obviously, there's stuff you can't reveal, but I do think with little bits and pieces leaking, it has the same risk as much of the Russia investigation, leaks from that did, to throw people into believing basically Trump's rhetoric about what's going on

KEILAR: Because Democrats are trying to bring along at least some members of the voting public. And yet are they going to be able to do that when they're having these potentially very compelling hearings, but behind closed doors?

NAYYERA HAQ, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: Well, I think it's going to be a multiphase process. Certainly, Speaker Pelosi has managed this in a very measured way, and too quickly for some and not quick enough for others.

I think what's important about Fiona Hill testifying today is that she's a subject matter expert. She's not a Trump loyalists or sycophant, by any means. Her loyalty was to the United States and a policy that was about countering Russia's intervention in Ukraine and Syria.

So she will be able to testify to the actual substance of what should have been done, what should be the diplomacy that continues through the United States history of foreign policy vs. what the Trump administration was trying to do, which I think is ultimately advancing the interests of Russia.

SALAMA: And it's actually interesting that she's testifying about this particular case with the Ukraine phone call, because throughout the beginning of her tenure at the NSC, there was a lot of attention around Fiona Hill because of the president's meetings with Vladimir Putin, the Russian president, because of the fact that she has been a very outspoken critic of Vladimir Putin throughout her career.

And then there she was at the NSC, where she was at holding these meetings with President Trump where we were hearing that, in one case, he may have revealed classified information to the Russians in the Oval Office and other incidents that potentially would have been very alarming for someone with Fiona Hill's background, especially in the things she's written in her books.

And so it's interesting we're hearing from her in this case, and when everybody was hoping to hear from her in those days about her views on the Russia meeting.

KEILAR: Certainly.

OK, so this is -- when you look at this week, it's a busy one, right?

It's a busy week for impeachment. There are four officials, including Hill, who are expected to testify before Congress. Seven people are facing subpoena deadlines to turn over documents. That includes the vice president, the acting defense secretary, the acting budget chief, Energy Secretary Rick Perry, and acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney. Nayyera, I wonder how much -- and maybe this is something you all can weigh in on -- how much could this change by the end of the week and how much do Democrats hope this changes by the end of the week?

HAQ: Well, I think there's -- the day by day, we're suddenly realizing that this is not just a White House issue. This is a whole of government issue and it's a whole of government as run by Donald Trump and his children, and how they have really made this a government for the Trump family and not for the American people or American national security.

Now, if this actually changes the direction of the impeachment inquiry in one week, I don't think so. I think it's going to be a matter of how much information is presented to the public, the public case be made.

This is a matter right now of internally getting all the ducks in the row and trying to see what the narrative is. But what we're hearing does not sound good for Trump and his future legacy.

DIAMOND: And we have seen the rhetoric from this administration already on the impeachment inquiry, right?

And this will be the first week that that rhetoric needs to be or needs to not be matched to action, because this is the first week that you have these document deadlines, these depositions happening since the White House last week sent this letter to Nancy Pelosi, saying, essentially, we're not going to cooperate, this is a sham inquiry, kangaroo court.

These are the words that we have been hearing from this administration. So does Mike Pence provide these documents? Does the defense secretary provides documents?

These will be key metrics to see how the administration is actually matching that rhetoric to action. And also it'll give us a sense of whether this is going to head to the courts and how quickly it will head to the courts, because if they start this week with not meeting these deadlines, as they have already missed them in the past as it relates to the State Department, for example, we could very quickly see this head into the federal courts.

HAQ: This is not just a test, really, of the impeachment process. It's a test of rule of law that we're seeing right now.

KEILAR: Yes, are we rule of law or are we rule of norms, right?

All right, we have much more to discuss.

We have some breaking news. President Trump just released a statement about his decision in Syria. Has he changed his mind about pulling U.S. troops out? And is it too late to change his mind?

[16:10:01]

We will have that next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Breaking news: President Trump announcing moments ago he plans to impose tough economic sanctions against Turkey and redeploy some of the U.S. troops that he promised to pull out of Syria.

Just last week, the president ordered U.S. troops out of Northern Syria, effectively allowing Turkey to move in, and putting U.S. allies the Kurds at risk for a massacre.

[16:15:07]

I want to bring in CNN's Kaitlan Collins. She is live at the White House.

And, Kaitlan, explain to us exactly what the president is planning, and also if there are any concerns it may be too late to effectively reverse course.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes. So, the president had a meeting this morning here at the White House with some of his top advisers, Brianna, on whether or not they were going to move forward on sanctions with against Turkey, something that the president has been threatening for several days now. And he's announcing in his statement that he's going to impose sanctions but he doesn't say, Brianna, that he's done so yet. He just says, soon, he's going to sign an executive order that would do so.

He also announces that they're going to raise the steel tariffs back up 50 percent. That was the number they were at before. The president had later decreased it. And he also says that they are calling off talks the Commerce Department was having with Turkish officials about a potential trade deal with Turkey.

All of that in this lengthy statement from the president that comes as he is been defending his decision to withdraw U.S. troops from Syria, something that he's facing an immense amount of criticism from Republicans over and the question is going to be whether or not this is enough to quiet that criticism.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS (voice-over): As his former top Russia aide testified today, President Trump was behind closed doors renewing his call to reveal the identity of the whistle-blower. That tweet, coming after the House Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff hinted the anonymous official might not be pushed to testify in person in order to shield their identity.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): The primary interest right now is making sure that that person is protected.

COLLINS: The White House announced this morning that Trump wasn't expected to make any public appearances. But his fury over Democrats impeachment probe flared on Twitter, at one point quoting the conservative talk radio host Mark Levin who made this claim. MARK LEVIN, CONSERVATIVE RADIO HOST: Serial murderers get more

process than the Democrats want to give to the president of the United States.

COLLINS: Just as it appeared the president was distancing himself from his chief defender in the impeachment probe, Trump tossed Rudy Giuliani a lifeline.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I stand behind Rudy Giuliani, absolutely.

COLLINS: The two had lunch at his golf course outside of Washington on Saturday in a show of public support, after Trump himself threw the relationship into question.

TRUMP: I know nothing about him being under investigation. As somebody said, I heard a report today. I don't -- I can't imagine it.

COLLINS: Aides say the president will likely continue to lash out as his current and former officials make their way to Capitol Hill, defying a White House pledge not to cooperate with an inquiry they say isn't legitimate.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): The idea that the whistle-blower would be allowed to testify in writing as to hearsay testimony offends every concept of due process.

COLLINS: The same Republicans defending the president on the impeachment inquiry are also the ones criticizing his decision to withdraw U.S. troops from Syria.

GRAHAM: If you think they just threaten Europe, you're wrong. They were radicalized people in our country.

COLLINS: Struggling to defend the move, one Republican tried to blame impeachment.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (D-WY): What the Democrats are doing themselves to try to weaken this president is part of this. There is -- it was not an accident that the Turks chose this moment to roll across the border.

COLLINS: So far, Trump has been unswayed by their criticism, asserting that the same people who got us into the Middle East mess are the people who most want us to stay there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: So, Brianna, we should just be clear, in this statement, the president only says that sanctions are coming soon, not that they've happened yet. So, we're going to wait to see when exactly the sanctions actually go into place. That will likely come as an announcement from Treasury, something we haven't gotten yet. And we should note that on Friday, the Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin briefed reporters, essentially talking about this executive order that was going to give the president the authority to move forward sanctions.

But we should be clear, they haven't happened yet. So far, it's just a statement from the White House.

KEILAR: They haven't happened yet.

All right. Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much.

So, when it comes to the impeachment inquiry, will the White House's seemingly no-strategy strategy hold up as the president keeps taking to Twitter?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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KEILAR: President Trump's Twitter feed offering a window into what is on his mind right now, that would be the impeachment inquiry and Syria.

And there was this interesting description in "The Washington Post," two reporters there describing recent tweets and comments like this. Quote: Like an aging rock star, the president is now reprising many of the greatest hits from his hellion days. They say he has bullied and projected while also depicting himself as a victim.

But this is something -- this is worked for him in the past, this strategy, has it not?

HAM: Yes. But there is a point of diminishing return. And it does work with the base to a certain extent. Although I would point out when it comes to the Syria question, you do have a lot of pushback from Republicans and some from base voters as well who are concerned about this.

So, it is just a question of how long this works and with whom. I think chaos to a certain degree and the sort of the upheaval of the media cycle works for him to some degree but how much?

[16:25:01]

KEILAR: Do you -- what do you guys think? Do you think it's working for him?

SALAMA: I mean, on a day to day basis, it's hard to say that the average person would care about this more than, say, putting food on the table. It's something that gets drowned out for the average American.

Now, when he goes to the rallies, it tends to be a really good and energetic focal point for him. He gets the crowd revved up on this, he calls it a witch hunt, he drops a couple of profanities, and everybody gets going. It's something that he likes to use as part of this sort of, I'm the victim, this is a witch hunt against me, but I've been fighting, delivering on my promises for you, despite all that's going on and it's something that's worked for him, but to an extent.

DIAMOND: It's also an opportunity for Trump to throw out the red meat that his supporters love and this is where he kind of thrives when he is in the fight and you could see the energy levels that he has at these rallies where he's going an hour and a half, two hour rallies.

But at the same time, this is also similar to what we saw during the Mueller investigation, right? Which is when the president sees the walls kind of closing in on him like this, he sometimes acts in the most impulsive ways that we see him act. He also lashes out on twitter in ways that are even dismaying to some of his supporters and certainly in a way that provokes a lot of concerns inside of the White House from his closest advisers.

So, it's kind of a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it allows him to kind of show that he's in the fight and give this aggressive personality that works politically, but on the other hand, it can sometimes trigger some of the very kinds of behavior that he's being investigated over right now.

HAQ: Yes, it could be hellion days of yore, but now he seems like he's under his senility days, and it's an opportunity for Democrats to really show rational, reasonable, process oriented democracy that is inclusive and that focuses on issues and that is a welcome change of pace for particular and a way to draw more people into the process as opposed to the people that Donald Trump is turning away.

KEILAR: Process-oriented democracy.

HAQ: Shocking, I know.

KEILAR: But is that something that grabs the attention of America?

HAQ: I don't think that's the message, right. I don't think the message is process, but the message is, we're calm, we're reasonable, we're looking to help you on the issues that you care about on a day to day basis, and we're doing that with a demeanor of respect for you as Americans and also for the institution of the presidency.

HAM: But I'm not sure that's actually what's happening right now. I would argue that having Schiff, who has proven himself untrustworthy on a couple of very important points running this ship, doesn't make it look as aboveboard as they would like to make it look. I think there is a message to send that is, hey, we're the calm party. Things will not be as chaotic if we're in office. I think that's a good argument.

I'm not sure the one that is being sent at the LGBT town hall where Beto was saying off the wall stuff about how they treat religious Americans. So, I think that's the right message. I'm not sure that's the message they're always sending.

KEILAR: It is -- the House Intel Committee does not operate in a sort of political free -- more political free-zone as it did in other years. It's very true.

As President Trump issues a new statement about Syria, he's now calling for anyone to help. Yes. He says anyone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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