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CRIME AND JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Urgent Nationwide Manhunt For Serial Bomber; 10th Potential Explosive Found, How Many More?; CNN Hero Brad Ludden: "Adventure Can Be Healing" Aired 6-7p ET

Aired October 25, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[18:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, a nationwide manhunt for a sick and twisted bomber.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By definition is a serial bomber, yes, and a terrorist.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was he hell-bent on mass murder?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I held my breath and I hoped that it was a one-off situation. And then frankly, I knew we were off to the races.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eight targets, ten bombs, all look the same.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do suspect there will be more.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But hundreds of ways to track down who did it.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will find those responsible, and we will bring them to justice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The tiny clues that pack a powerful punch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s more and more evidence on every package.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From DNA to hair and clothing fibers, to the possibility the bomber just may have had a pet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whether there`s a hair, whether there`s sweat, whether there`s spit --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They always think it`s the perfect crime.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fingerprints with that tape --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But America`s last bomber was tracked in 18 days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had to be delivered there by hand.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So how long will it be before this one is hauled in and locked up?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is clearly an effort to terrorize people politically.

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: We are fine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I ain`t scared.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And is anyone else still on the hit list?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoever did this is really intent on committing an evil act, but also is multiplying risk too fast.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will bring these perpetrators to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening everyone, I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is "Crime and Justice." And tonight the hunt for

what could have been a mass murderer is on. Someone who thought they could get away with a deadly wave of deliveries to eight American leaders, and

someone who has no idea what is coming now. Because thankfully none of those deliveries detonated, which means each one is still chock full of

clues.

From the misspelled labels and the American flag stamps to the prints and the skin cells that might have been left behind. Tonight all ten

suspicious packages are intact and in the hands of the sharpest investigators this country has to offer. And under the kind of microscopes

the sender probably can`t spell.

And we know what investigators are looking for. Down to the tiniest fragment of evidence that will help them track down the terrorist. Joining

me tonight, I`ve got an incredible team of those who know forensics to a key securities and explosives consultant and retired ATF explosives

investigator, Anthony May. Jimmie Oxley, is co-Director for the center for excellence in explosives. Professor Francis of Jacksonville State

University, Joseph Scott Morgan is with us, he is a certified death investigator. CNN senior law enforcement analyst and former FBI assistant

Director, Tom Fuentes is here. Forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober. And CNN HLN legal analysts Joey Jackson, as well as CNN legal analyst Paul

Callan here, not only to dissect what they`re doing to find this person, but what will happen to that person once he or she or they are found.

I want to begin with you, Tom Fuentes. To the most important question, and that is, do you think they actually have someone at this early stage who is

now being watched and watched carefully every step of the way, or is it too early?

TOM FUENTES, CNN`S SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST AND FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: I think it might be too early, Ashleigh, for that. They`re

going to keep going through all these devices. I don`t even think they`re in possession of every single device, the ones that were just found today

still need to be brought down there, but until they`ve had a chance to look at every device and see if there`s any DNA or other fingerprints, other

material that was recoverable separate from the components of the bomb that might be on file, someone that is already had their fingerprints on file,

let`s say, until they get to that point, I think it`s a little premature to say that they have a suspect in mind.

BANFIELD: So fascinatingly, all 10 of those packages have that return address, Debbie Wassermann Schultz, spell wrong, important to note. But

they all have that return address. Would that lead investigators to naturally say that is a commonality, that is someone who clearly has it in

for Debbie Wassermann Schultz, perhaps we should begin at the offices of Debbie Wasserman Schultz in Florida and find all of the malcontents who

have created problems for her in the past? Tom?

[18:05:06] FUENTES: Oh, for me, OK. Well, you know, if you start with that, you remember last year when Congressman Scalise was shot at the

Republican softball game practice, it was by a Bernie Sanders supporter. So, if you want to look at some of the potential enemies of Debbie

Wassermann Schultz, you could start with supporters of Bernie Sanders who felt that she helped cheat him out of the nomination for the Democratic

Party Presidential candidate. So there`s a lot of ways to look at who could be her enemy.

BANFIELD: Yes, I would assume there are a lot of eyes on people who don`t know right now. There are eyes on them. If I can, I want to go to Joseph

Scott Morgan for a moment. Because Joe, while there is so much political discussion around what`s been happening and the 10 targets all being

targets of you know, Democratic opportunity, let`s say that, also people who have been critical of President Obama -- or of President Trump, there

is also the commonality of the packages.

Every single one of the 10 is almost identical. Right down to the tape that looks to be used to put those labels on, the envelopes, the stamps,

and little known to most people, there is a wealth of forensic evidence that is naked to the eye, but not naked to investigators. Start with the

stamps and the adhesive tape. What could be lurking beneath them?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes, Ash, thanks for having me this evening. Absolutely, the stamps and

the tape in particular have adhesive backing on them. So one of the things that I would think that first comes to mind for me are little bits of fiber

that are picked up that can kind of paint a picture about the environment that the individual that constructed these things was in dwelling. You may

have skin cells that are left behind by placement. You might have hair.

And even if we begin to think about things within their environment, say like pets, if they have cats, dogs, that sort of thing, even a guinea pig,

those fibers would be picked up. Not to mention clothing fibers. Things like natural fibers and synthetic fibers that are adherent. We look at

this through this lens and try to break it down into the simplest terms that we possibly can. Also along the surfaces of these packages and the

exterior of the tape, for instance, we can have things, say, for instance, if you`ll notice on a couple of these images that you see, we have what

appears to be black electrical tape.

That is a nonporous surface. And now this thing would have passed through a couple of people`s hands, potentially, but there might be the possibility

that latent prints exist in that environment as well. So, you know, that is just a starting place. And again, just as our colleague was saying just

a moment ago, all of these have not made it to the lab yet. So there`s a virtual plethora of information to sort through, but it is an evidence-rich

environment.

BANFIELD: And let`s just say for a moment that someone has watched the program "Forensic Files" enough to know that latent prints are a dead give-

away, especially when 10 packages may share the same prints. And so maybe this person handled those packages with gloves. It is a little difficult

to pull the tape off the roll and to pull stamps of the roll when you are wearing gloves.

MORGAN: Yes, it is.

BANFIELD: So potentially the fingerprints may not be on the package, but maybe stuck to the adhesive of the tape. That is something that you call,

I think, plastic prints?

MORGAN: Well, yes, but traditionally plastic prints are referred to as -- say, for instance, you place your hand -- folks at home will hand, you

leave a print let us say for instance in a sticky substance like a pool of oil or maybe glue, or people might think of something like silly putty or

Play-doh. That is actually like a plastic print. If you have this adherent backing on the back of it, when you`re peeling this thing off, you

actually can leave the image of your print behind. Remember, the prints left behind, we have friction ridges on the ends of our fingers, and that

leaves the impression.

BANFIELD: I want to bring in Anthony May and Jimmie Oxley if I can. Anthony, I will begin with you, what we know so far about the actual pipe

bombs themselves is that they are small, they are considered to be rudimentary, but operational, they contain shards of glass, and then there

is this sticker that you can see -- that looks like sort of a crude ISIS image, like an ISIS flag image. I`m going to go to the components first.

And also on the CNN-delivered bomb, there was a digital timing device. Walk me through what some of those components tell you if you`re

investigating this and trying to find the sender.

ANTHONY MAY, SECURITY AND EXPLOSIVES CONSULTANT: Well, Ashleigh, good afternoon. The components of the devices are all similar, the 10. That

basically will help lead and identify the perpetrator eventually. Now as far as the components themselves, PVC pipe is standard. We`ve seen that a

lot in devices throughout the country along with galvanized pipe.

[18:10:00] They contain the filler. Which is -- could be some kind of a hazardous material, energetic explosives that has yet to be identified.

And then it contains some wiring and the one from Santa Ana, I believe it was a digital timing device on the outside of the pipe. Now a timing

device is not normal, or not usually found in a mailed package. Because the idea is mailed bombs, letter bombs, are designed to get a particular

target. And there`s no way you can guarantee that your target will be accessible at the appropriate time.

So it`s kind of unusual that there is a digital clock to this thing. So, you know -- just looking at the x-rays, from the devices, it`s quite clear

that there is a substance inside which the bomb squads are concerned about. However, the x-ray also reveals some other good intelligence about this

device that allows them to handle it safely and remove it from the site.

BANFIELD: OK, so you just hit upon something I think is fascinating. And Jimmie, I`m going to bring this to you, but the fact that all ten of these

explosive devices, a, did not explode, thank god, in the hands of a courier or a mail handler or someone`s executive assistant or someone just walking

beside that courier on the sidewalk or the mail carrier. None of these exploded. And we are told all are intact. When they were taken away to

secure locations they were not detonated. They could be kept intact, which I can only imagine Jimmy, for someone in your business means a wealth of

information. Forensic information, tracking information. Am I wrong?

JIMMIE OXLEY, EXPLOSIVE RESEARCH SPECIALIST, UNIVERSITY OF RHODE ISLAND: You are correct. It is, indeed, as you put it, a wealth of information.

You`ve already had Tom talk about all the things you could be on the package, and Jay referred to the fingerprints, the DNA evidence. I will

say, had the pipe exploded, you still might have had all of those. As a person who has made 130 pipe bombs and sent them off on purpose for

research, you don`t begin to obliterate everything. You have all kinds of evidence left. In fact, I collect the fragments, take a look at them, and

analyze them. So no matter what, there is lots of evidence when a device is initiated. The question, of course, why are we so lucky that 10

devices, and 10 non-detonations?

BANFIELD: So, Tom Fuentes, weigh in on the flag, on that image of the ISIS flag. Some have said, don`t read too much into that, it`s a crude likeness

that can be googled and printed off and sent off as a red herring. Others have said, it`s simply domestic terrorism any way you slice it, but what

would investigators see in that flag?

FUENTES: Just what you`ve said, Ashleigh. They`d see both sides of that. Maybe it`s an ISIS supporter, maybe it`s not. Maybe it`s just something

put in there as a joke. You know, they don`t know. Probably at this point, until they learn more about the devices, how they were put together,

if there`s a signature method of manufacture or assembly of the explosives, I think they`re just going to take that as one more piece of information

that may or may not be relevant.

BANFIELD: Jimmy, real quickly on the notion that the glass shards were found, to our knowledge, inside the pipe, as opposed to affixed somehow to

the outside, any of the projectiles I`m told in many of the bombs are more effective when they are on the outside, therefore, they have sort of more

trajectory if the bomb explodes. Is that incorrect? Or is there something to that from an investigative nature when you`re trying to find the person

who did it?

OXLEY: Well --

BANFIELD: Jimmy, I`m going to jump in we`ve got a bad signal with you right now. So while we get you re-established, if it`s OK, Anthony, would

you mind fielding that question, just the notion the projectiles are all inside the actual device and not sort of an easier explosive trajectory by

being affixed to the outside?

MAY: Absolutely, I`ll be more than happy to answer that. Basically, typically what you see when shrapnel is added to a device, it is added for

anti-personnel, it`s typically added on the outside. Now that doesn`t mean that we`ve never seen it put on the inside. That is not true as well,

because I have, I`ve recovered devices that have had shrapnel inside, but what`s going to happen here is that takes up some of the space for the

explosive material. You`ve got less explosive material if it`s inside the pipe. And the explosive material has to disrupt the container and project

the fragments of the container as well as the shrapnel at the same time. So you`re losing some energy there. It`s not -- a bomb builder that knows

what he is doing probably would have put it to the outside.

[18:15:20] BANFIELD: All right. I want you to hold that thought for a moment. Because there`s something sort of fascinating that I think a lot

of people, if you don`t spend a budget of time in a courtroom watching criminal trials and evidence, you may not know just how specific the

everyday products you buy at home, how specific they actually are when you get down to the microscopic level. Like a piece of paper in your printer.

Right? Looks like a million others, right?

Sometimes there are products like this that have little striations in them. When they`re flying through the machines on which they`re manufactured.

And sometimes those striations are so unique, you can trace them to the lot. And then you can trace that lot to the store. I mean, you can trace

that store to the point of sale. And then you can trace that point of sale to the person who bought it. So how about all those bomb components? Can

you do that? That is next.

[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Responding officers identified a device that appeared to be a live explosive device.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: PVC ping, explosive powder, glass, active shrapnel, a digital clock linked to a battery, put in a manila envelope with those six

American flag stamps.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We see an extraordinarily clear pattern.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a lot of forensic value in the devices right now, because none of these things have really gone off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have fairly intact devices that are able to provide a lot of clues.

(END VIDEO ban CLIP)

BANFIELD: A lot. A lot of clues. Clues that we can start unpacking even before tonight. Because even as the FBI experts begin to test all ten

packages, even as all 10 devices are being carefully dismantled, we know just enough details to start connecting the dots to get a sense of what the

sender wanted and whether mass murder was really the intention. Paul Callan and Joey Jackson, I have sat on enough sets with you and discussed

enough murder cases with you do know that you have seen these things play out before, and if you`re an average Joe in a living room, you`re not going

to know the stuff that you know, or you know, or the FBI knows. Start with the printer ink. What do you know of cases that have actually zeroed in on

ink from a printer?

PAUL CALLAN. CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, a lot of people would be surprised to know that there`s a science to actually dating inks that you use on

pieces of paper. Obviously this is of great interest to the IRS if you`ve been back dating receipts to try to show you deserve a deduction. The IRS

can come in and say, that ink, according to our chemical analysis, wasn`t produced until 1980 and you`re trying to collect a deduction for before

that.

BANFIELD: Ink has a signature?

CALLAN: Absolutely. And it comes up frequently in cases where the date that something happens is an issue.

BANFIELD: Does the cartridge of ink that you buy have a signature?

CALLAN: Well, the cartridge will have a signature by the company, of course, that manufactured it. But you can then do a sub-analysis of the

ink itself to determine and also now, --

BANFIELD: So put the picture up, while you are saying it, I want to put the picture up of those packages and the specific addresses that are boldly

printed. Lots of ink was used on these addresses. Up in the return address and the delivery address. I mean, every piece of paper looks the

same, all the printing, all the fonts, everything looks the same.

CALLAN: And that really had an impression with me, because when you look at a font and you look at how it`s printed out, that can also give you a

hint of, yes, the cartridge that was used, but possibly the printer that made the letter. And then you can look and say, when was that printer

sold? And where was that printer sold? That is a very, very substantial clue that can be created by the lettering itself.

BANFIELD: This feels so new, it feels like it`s not even in the most recent episode of "Forensic Files." Honestly to be able to track someone

through the ink you printed. It gets better. The products you buy. Look at these envelopes. Do you think someone just had 10 of these envelopes

Joey, lying around the house?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN PRIMETIME JUSTICE GUEST SHOW HOST: Look, even if they did, they would have had to purchase it at some point. So that is where

the plot thickens. Paul addressed the issue of the actual ink. But you have to put the ink on something, and you`re referencing the actual

envelope. When you buy the envelope, apparently there are, you can really track it down to the striations on the particular envelope, and in fact,

envelopes have fingerprints in and of themselves. And so there was a case, that you and I were just talking about it, the Melanie McGuire case, they

call it the suitcase murder. And just by analogy I`m using this. So she chopped up her husband`s body, put him in suitcases, but she put the body

parts in a component bag.

BANFIELD: Garbage bag.

JACKSON: Garbage bags. As a result of the garbage bags, investigators were able to trace the garbage bags, they were able to identify the

striations on the garbage bags, trace the lot to where the garbage bags were purchased, trace where the garbage bags were sold, and they traced

them to under her sink. And so they matched the particular bags there. So it gives a lot of hope with respect to bringing this person to justice that

the envelopes themselves, in addition to the ink that Paul Callan was speaking of, give us clues to unearth who this person is.

[18:25:09] BANFIELD: So, the idea here goes further. If they can find the lot that these envelopes or even the tape that rolled off of the roll, if

they can find the product striations from the manufacturing equipment in these particular 10 -- thank god there`s ten. Thank god. If they can find

those striations, match them to the lot, match the lot to the store, match the store to the time of purchase, and get those surveillance cameras to

watch the same time, 10 person -- ten times the same person going through those surveillance, you`ve got your guy. Jimmy, jump in on this with me,

if you will. Does any of this sound far-fetched to you? Or does this sound pretty much like the map that they`re going to use to track this

bomber down?

OXLEY: I think there`s easier clues than the ones that you are outlining. Those are certainly possible, but first of all, you would go for

fingerprints and DNA. Those might very well -- you`d go for the easy stuff first.

BANFIELD: Sure, and if that is not there, you have to start getting a little more refined, yes?

OXLEY: Absolutely. And then to look at the clock, for example, the timers. Those type of components are a little more distinctive to find.

And of course, I`m waiting to hear what the filler was. We`ve heard nothing about that yet. Nor have we heard what the initiation system was.

Those are usually quite strong clues for where the device originated. And as you`ve already had guests point out, there are cameras in most locations

that you know who did the purchase.

BANFIELD: Anthony, jump in, if you will. I have been fascinated, and I hate to say relieved, but definitely relieved that everyone who handled

these 10 packages, unbeknownst to them, they`re OK tonight. They have no idea, potentially, that they were handling a rudimentary, but operational

explosive device. Which leads to the question, how did none of these devices explode in transit? They`re jostled through equipment, they are

thrown onto conveyor belts, they are flung into bins, they are thrown onto doorsteps, popped into mail boxes. I mean, the trucks and the potholes

they go over. How is it not one of these actually detonated before it got to the intended destination?

MAY: Well, Ashleigh, that is interesting. And the only way to answer that is by taking a look at the x-ray and following the wires. As we`ve already

pointed out, there`s a timer on the outside, there`s a bunch of wires. Somebody asked a question about the initiator. There`s been some

speculation based on an x-ray that the initiator is actually a hot bridge wire. Well, if that in fact is the case, there`s not enough power source

in that device to function a hot bridge wire.

Those two button batteries is only there to function that digital timer, and I don`t see any other batteries to function anything else, any other

type of switch. Now whether that is an intentional design by the bomber or a mistake by the bomber remains to be seen, but we have been lucky that

these 10 devices have not gone off and it`s given us a wealth of information.

BANFIELD: All right, hold that thought for a moment. There is also this notion, as we show those pictures, many times you see the packages in a

couple of the pictures you`ve actually seen the device itself. Whether it`s the one there to John Brennan, CNN, on the bottom right-hand side, or

you see those two images right there the middle bottom. But you also see those x-ray shots of what was the device looked like, but the one question

that hasn`t been answered yet, how much damage might these have done? We have seen bombers before injure people. We have seen bombers kill people.

What would these devices have done had they been successful? We`re going to let you know next.

[18:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Responding officers identified a device that appeared to be a live explosive device.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): PVC piping, explosive powder, glass, active shrapnel, a digital clock linked to a battery, put in an envelope

with those six American flag stamps --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): We see an extraordinarily clear pattern.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): There is a lot of forensic value because none of these things have really gone off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You have fairly intact devices that are going to be able to provide a lot of clues.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CRIME AND JUSTICE SHOW HOST, HLN: It`s not just about the forensics. The manhunt for the serial bomber behind all of this week`s

packages won`t just come down to the clues he left behind, it will come down to the steps that he took as well.

[18:35:03] The kind of killer`s breadcrumb trail that could start to emerge very soon, thanks to a simple skill we do every day, we track a

delivery.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: It appears that some of the packages were "couriered." They were dropped off. These are residences that have multiple

video cameras, security cameras. So the video, the security camera footage, is being analyzed right now to see what we can find out, because that is

one of the major leads that they`re following. And again, every package, more possibility for DNA, more possibility for fingerprints, et cetera.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: My panel is back with me. I have some of the most skilled people in law enforcement to answer the most important questions. How will we find

this person and how fast? Tom Fuentes, to you. The idea of security cameras. You can`t walk a New York block anywhere in this country without

being caught somewhere on camera.

So my assumption is, is that there is a fan-out right now and a collection of real-time video in all of the places, particularly in Opa-Locka, Florida

where now we`re learning that potentially these packages may all have been sent from, and real eyes in real-time will be scanning for the same person

10 different types, correct?

TOM FUENTES, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That`s true, Ashleigh. You probably have dozens of cameras, maybe more, in the vicinity of the

Soros home, the Clinton home, the Obama home, all of the postal service facilities, the Time Warner building exterior, then into the mail room.

So there would be many, many videos that investigators will be analyzing. If you`ll recall the Boston marathon bombing, look at -- by the third day

after the bombing, the tremendous video pictures of the two bombers waking down the sidewalk in Boston with their knapsacks and baseball hats on.

BANFIELD: We`re living "The Truman Show," honestly. With the same person 10 different times, it`s just a little too coincidental if he or she shows

up in 10 different images. Hold for one second. Jimmie, many of us obviously in this building were very concerned yesterday during the

evacuation.

This is a massive, massive double tower. And that`s hard in New York to see two towers being evacuated. Many of us wondered, how powerful could that

one mail bomb, letter bomb have been? How much damage, how much death could it actually have effectuated?

JIMMIE OXLEY, EXPLOSIVES RESEARCH SPECIALIST, UNIVERSITY OF RHODE ISLAND (via telephone): Not very much. It was a very small device. It`s intended

to be a single-person device, somewhat. So the person who opened it and triggered it would have been hurt, maybe anybody in a three-foot radius

would have been hurt.

BANFIELD: Yeah, typically, it`s not the intended target. The idiot who sent this has maybe no clue that those intended targets all have handlers

and security and mail assistants and executive assistants. So, typically, it is the most innocent who can be affected by these things and have been

in the past.

So, to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, about the dynamics of the actual bomb. Inside those bombs were glass shards. And to many of the average Joe out

there, they just look like pieces of broken glass. To someone like you, they look completely different, and they`re traceable. How?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yeah, you know, if there`s shards of glass, we have to assume that they were obviously broken

prior to the construction of this bomb. So one of the things that happens is that we`re looking for glass fracture patterns. It`s important for us to

understand that the glass has to originate and, you know, lots us pass by glass items every day, we don`t think about it.

But let`s think about this, for instance. What type of glass is it? Does it come out of a standard windowpane? Did they get it as a safety glass out of

a car? Or is it an old whiskey bottle that has been fractured and cracked? This is important. If the origin, if that glass, the point of origin still

has remnant back at the scene, you can take those fragments that are there and potentially match them up with point of origin.

BANFIELD: Match them up.

MORGAN: Yeah.

BANFIELD: So two other issues I need you to hit if you can in 30 seconds and that is that there are tear patterns on the tape that was used. They

rip it off in a certain pattern.

MORGAN: Right.

BANFIELD: And wires are cut with some device potentially in the home or office of the perpetrator. And how do you actually track that?

MORGAN: Yeah, actually, just like with the glass, we`re thinking about the tearing of the tape. This again is a fracture pattern that goes back to the

tape. This has been used in countless cases over and over again where you actually match up these torn pieces end to end.

[18:39:57] Now back to the wires, where they`ve been crimped and cut and all that sort of thing, that can go back to a specific tool mark that`s

used in order to attach these wires. So that is a specific point of individualization, as we refer to it in forensic science, that can tie back

to an individual.

BANFIELD: Everything you touch leaves some kind of a fingerprint, and it`s not just literal.

MORGAN: Right.

BANFIELD: It`s remarkable. There are so many microscopic crime-fighting tools out there today. Joe, hold your thoughts for a moment. We are getting

so good. We are getting so good at tracking people who think they know better. Because the amount of time it takes to find them is getting shorter

and shorter and shorter.

U.S. Law enforcement has a very long history of tracking down serial bombers. So up next, we`re going to take a look at the lessons learned from

the Ted Kaczynski investigation, and how that is and may just work as an application in this case.

[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: The clues may come from the packages. The clues may come from the pipe bombs or maybe the delivery service or surveillance. But any crime

expert will tell you that some clues come from the past.

As a tragic and targeted as this week`s deliveries seem to be, the person behind them is not the first to send deadly bombs. We`ve seen this behavior

before. The Oklahoma City bomber to the Unabomber, which means we have found a way to hunt these people down.

May panel is still with me. I`m joined also by Dr. Daniel Bober, a forensic pathologist. Dr. Bober, I want to go to you on this because I want to get

your thoughts right off the bat. You`ve seen the 10 packages. You`ve seen the similarities. Do you think we`re dealing with one person or more?

DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: I think it`s probably going to end up being one person. But what`s interesting is, and you touched upon it

earlier, was this person`s motivation to kill? Or was it simply to create fear and chaos? And I think that`s the biggest question we have to answer

because the person clearly has some level of technical sophistication, but not a lot.

And so if you look at bombers from the past like Eric Rudolph or Ted Kaczynski, they all had an ax to grind, they all had anger for some reason.

The question is whether this person was actually intending to kill or were they just simply trying to create fear and chaos? I think that for me is

the biggest question as a forensic psychiatrist.

BANFIELD: You touched on a few of the ones from history. These ones definitely intended to kill and did so. I just want to go over a couple

because I am so interested in the fact that most, if not all, I may be wrong, but are men, they just tend to be men who do this.

BOBER: Yes.

BANFIELD: Theodore Kaczynski, Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, it took us 17 years to find him, but we did. Eric Rudolph, it took us five years to find

him, but we did. Walter Leroy Moody, it took us less than a year, just over six months to find him, but we did. Mark Conditt, just earlier this year,

it took us 18 days to find him, but we did. And he blew himself up. And then there was Timothy McVeigh. We all know what he did. And he was caught

the same day.

So it is entirely possible that we are getting faster and faster at tracking these people and will be this time around. Many of them are anti-

government. What do you make of that, Dr. Bober?

BOBER: Well, I don`t think it`s surprising that this person has some kind of extremist ideology. But we may be able to see the technical trigger. The

question is what is the emotional trigger? What is it? Is it the negative rhetoric? Is it the vitriol that`s being spewed out now every day that put

this person over the edge? It very well might be and that`s something we need to look at as a society.

BANFIELD: Let me ask you, Paul Callan, would this be a federal crime and a state crime? We`ve seen that before.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, absolutely. Every state where some aspect of this criminal act occurred, they could bring a charge. There`s a

federal charge, though, that definitely screams out and that`s use of a weapon of mass destruction. That was used in the Boston marathon case and

there were 30 counts in that indictment, 30 convictions, and it also calls for either life or the death penalty.

BANFIELD: And with death, that often results in a negotiation for life, as did so many of those cases. Very quickly, 30 seconds left. It is hateful

what this person did.

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, CNN AND HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah.

BANFIELD: But is it a hate crime?

JACKSON: Well, you know what, it`s not going to much matter. It will matter with regard to his motivations, with regard to his intent. But in

terms of punishment, Ashleigh, it`s not going to make a bit of difference. He`s facing life and that`s whether as a state or federal prosecution. Most

assuredly, it will be a federal prosecution.

BANFIELD: And I am here to say that -- we`ve had this conversation before we went to air. I think it`s going to happen before the week is out. I

really do. I feel like there`s --

JACKSON: I hope you`re right.

BANFIELD: -- too much forensic evidence, 10 times over, and maybe we`re not done yet, maybe there will be additional pieces of evidence that show

up to others on the hit list, if there are. God, I hope not. God forbid any mail carrier, courier or innocent person ends up hurt by all of this.

Anthony May (ph), Jimmie Oxley, Joseph Scott Morgan, Tom Fuentes, Dr. Daniel Bober, Joey Jackson and Paul Callan, thank you all, especially since

this is our final show. It`s been lovely to have you all and your incredible expertise weighing in on this.

[18:50:01] JACKSON: We love you, Ash.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Thank you so much. Something else that --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re the greatest.

BANFIELD: Oh, god bless you. You know, I have been so proud to work with the CNN family and HLN family for the lat seven years and there`s a really

good reason. Everybody here is amazing. But also there is this. Every fall, we`ve been honoring 10 ordinary people who make an extraordinary

difference. But what happens after we shine the spotlight on their work?

For 2016 top 10 hero, Brad Ludden, it means extending his mission of bringing healing adventures to young adults with cancer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD LUDDEN, CNN HERO: In 2016, CNN Heroes featured us on an international stage and since then we`ve been approached by a bunch of different patient

advocacy groups inquiring us whether or not our programs would apply to their population. Those conversations led us to believe that young adults

with MS could benefit from this type of adventure-based healing.

We`re excited to pilot our first program for young adults with MS. I`m pretty overwhelmed with how far the organization has come. I`m just so

humbled by it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And we are humbled by the heroes. But who will be this year`s top 10 CNN Heroes? You can find out this Thursday, November 1st, when

they`re revealed live on CNN "New Day."

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Finally tonight, I`d like to take a moment to thank you for being part of our "Crime & Justice" family. For the past two years, you`ve

welcomed our team. There have been 22 of them that you haven`t been seeing behind the scenes, but they are the most talented and hardworking

investigative journalists in the business.

You`ve welcomed them into your home and we have done what we do best, drilling down to dig out the facts, tell the inside stories of some of the

most mysterious and frankly some of the most outrageous crimes, seeking justice for those who might not have been able to seek help for themselves.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Tonight, he may just be America`s latest serial killer.

An amber alert for a young girl who disappeared from her church.

Some crime are so heinous, there isn`t enough justice in the world.

The offender made the mess. Why won`t you own that and not blame the victim? You did it, you molested an 11-year-old. That`s what you did!

O.J. Simpson has been granted parole after nearly nine years in prison. P.

The scene of the largest mass shooting in United States modern history.

That breaking news out of Parkland, Florida in Broward County where at least 14 people were taken to local hospitals, but the number of dead is

still being tallied.

Jessica Boynton was hanging on for life in her bedroom closet.

The cops set up this whole fake murder scene and then videotaped her when they fake told her her husband was dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She doesn`t know this is taped. Good acting.

I saw the coin.

It doesn`t matter that there`s someone going by. He still so brazenly got a look.

A man is accused of making his way into a romantic rival`s home dressed as a meter reader. Look at the video.

But when Katrina went to collect that jackpot, the casino said no dice.

They said that the New York Gaming Commission is real clear about look, if there`s a malfunction, there`s a malfunction.

What`s been going on in the O.R.?

He lied to all of us. Why are we to suspect for a moment he`s not going to lie to the police about his beautiful wife, Shanann, who couldn`t have said

anything but loving things towards him and more loving things towards those little baby girls that he said she strangled. He says, the liar. The liar

says!

What exactly was your beef that you had a bad day with Aziz0 Ansari, but if you just had an unpleasant sexual experience, you should have gone home.

You have chiselled away at a movement that I along with all my sisters in the workplace have been dreaming of for decades.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: That`s why I love working here.

JACKSON: The best in the business right here.

BANFIELD: You get to do all these things. You get to say all these things. You get to, you know, speak up for those who maybe aren`t speaking up for

themselves. And by the way, in case you didn`t notice, Paul Callan and Joey Jackson started everything with me seven years ago.

JACKSON: We did. We started with Ashleigh, absolutely.

BANFIELD: Which is why you are my legal analysts tonight for the final show, and I thank you.

JACKSON: You are --

CALLAN: Our pleasure, and you`re a TV lawyer that I learned a lot of law from. I have to tell you that.

[19:00:00] You really are.

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: You need to go back to school.

JACKSON: Law, life --

BANFIELD: Thank you, guys.

JACKSON: Just incredible -- incredible human being.

BANFIELD: I got to wrap it there.

JACKSON: We love you. We really do.

BANFIELD: I got to wrap it there, and I got to wrap it all up. We are done. And thank you so much for being a part of his. I appreciate every

moment and good luck to all my colleague from living behind at CNN and AON. Next hour of Crime and Justice starts right now.

Tonight, a nationwide manhunt for a sick and twisted bomber.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My definition is a serial bomber, yes and a terrorist.

BANFIED: Was he hell bent on mass murder?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I held my breath and I hoped that it was a one-off situation. And then, frankly, I knew we were off to the races.

BANFIED: Eight targets, ten bombs, all look the same.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do suspect there will be more.

BANFIED: But hundreds of ways to track down who did it.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We will find those responsible and we will bring them to justice.

BANFIED: The tiny clues that pack a powerful punch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s more and more evidence on every package.

BANFIED: From DNA to hair and clothing fibers, to the possibility the bomber just may have had a pet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whether there`s a hair, whether there`s sweat, whether there`s spit.

BANFIED: They always think it the perfect crime.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fingerprints with that tape.

BANFIED: But America`s last bomber was tracked in 18 days.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had to be delivered there by hand.

BANFIED: So how long will it be before this one is hauled in and locked up?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is clearly an effort to terrorize people politically.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are fine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ain`t scared.

BANFIED: And is anyone else still on the hit list?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoever did this is really intent on committing an evil act but also is multiplying risks too fast.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will bring these perpetrators to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIED: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is "Crime and Justice" and tonight, the hunt for what could have a mass murderer is

on. Someone who thought he can get away with a deadly wave of deliveries to eight American leaders and someone who has no idea what is coming now.

Because thankfully, none of those bombs detonated, which means each one is chock full of clues, from the misspelled labels and American flag stamps to

the prints and the skin cells that might have been left behind.

Tonight all ten suspicious packages are in tact and in the hands of the sharpest investigators this country has to offer. And under the kind of

microscopes, this fender probably can`t spell. And we know what investigators are looking for down to the tiniest fragment of evidence that

will help them track down the terrorist.

Joining me tonight, I`ve go an incredible team of those who know forensics to a key, securities and seposed of consultant and a retired ATF Explosive

Investigator Anythony May. Jamie Oxley is co-director for the center for excellence in explosives. Professor of forensics at Jacksonville State

University, Joseph Scott Morgan is with us. He`s a certified death investigator.

CNN Senior Police Enforment Anaylst and former FBI, Assistant Director Tom Fuentes is here, forensic Dr. Daniel Bober and CNN and HLN, legal analyses

Joey Jackson as well as CNN legal analyst Paul Callun. Not only to direst what they`re doing to find this person, but what ill happen to that person

once he or she or they have found.

I want to begin with your Tom Fuente. So the most important question and that is, do you think tey actually have someone at this early stage who is

now being watched and watch carefully every step of the way or is it too early?

TOM FUENTES, SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think it might be too early, Ashleigh, for that. They`re going to keep going through all these

devices. I don`t think they`re in possession of every single device. The ones that were just found today still need to be brought down there. But

until they`ve had a chance to look at every device and see if there`s any DNA or other fingerprints, other material that was recoverable separate

from the components of the bomb that might be on file, someone that`s already had their fingerprints on file, let`s say, until they get to that

point, it`s a little premature to say they have a suspect in mind.

So fascinatingly all ten of those package have that return address, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, spelled wrong, important to note. But they all have

that return address. Wopuld that lead investigators to naturally say that`s a commonality, that is somebody who clearly has it in for Debbie

Wasserman Schultz. Perhaps we should begin at the offices of Debbie Wasserman Schultz in Florida and find all the mall malcontents who have

caused problems for her in the past. Tom?

FUENTES: Oh, for me. OK.

BANFIED: Yes.

FUENTES: Well you know if you - if you start with that, you remember last year when Congressman Scalise was shot at the republican softball game

practice, it was by a Bernie Sanders Supporter. So if you want to look at the potential enemies of

Debbie Wasserman Schultz, you could start looking at Bernie Sanders who felt that she helped cheat him out of the nomination a democratic priority

financial candidate.

So there`s a lot of ways to look at who could be her enemy.

BANFIED: Yeah, I would assume there are a lot of eyes on people who don`t know. Right now, there are eyes on them. If I can, I want to go to Joseph

Scott Morgan for a moment. Because Joe, while there is so much political discussion around what`s been happening and the ten targets all being

targets of democratic opportunity, let`s say that, also people who have been critical of President Trump. There is also the commonality of the

packages. Every single one of the ten is almost identical, right down to the tape that looks to be used to put those labels on, the envelopes, the

stamps and little known to most people, there is a wealth of forensic evidence that is naked to the eye but not to the investigators.

Start with the stamps and adhesive tape. What could be lurking beneath of them?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes, Ash, thanks for having me this evening. Yeah, absolutely. These - the stumps and the tape

in particular have adhesive backing on them. So one of the things that I would think that first comes to mind for me are little bits of fiber that

are picked up that can kind of paint a picture about the environment that the individual that constructed these things was in dwelling. You might

have skin cells that are left behind by the - by placement. You might have hair, an even if we begin to think about thngs within environment say like

pets, if they have cats, dogs, that`s where thing. Are you like guinea pig.

Those fibers would be picked up not to mentioned clothing fibers, things like natural fibers, and synthetic fibers that are adherent. We look at

this through this lens and try to break it down into the simplest terms that we possibly can. Also along the surfaces of this packages and

exterior of the tape. For instance and we can have things say for instance on the, if you`ll notice on a couple of these images that you see, we have

what appears to be black electrical tape. That`s a non-porous surface. And now, this thing would have pass through a couple of people`s hands

potentially, but we - there might be the possibility that latent prints exist in that environment as well. So, you know, that`s just a starting

place. Again, just as our colleague was saying just a moment ago, all of these have not made it to the lab yet, so there`s a virtual plethora of

information to sort through, but it is an evidence-rich environment.

BANFIED: And let`s just say for a moment that someone has watched the program "forensic files" enough to know that latent prints are a dead

giveaway, especially when ten packages may have the same prints. So maybe that person handled those packages with gloves.

MORGAN: Yes it is. It`s -

BANFIED: So potentially the finger prints may not be on the package, but maybe subtract to the adhesive of the tape. That`s something that you call

I think plastic prints.

MORGAN: Well yes, but traditionally plastic prints are referred to as - say for instance your place your hand and I`ll give folks at home will

understand. You leave a print say, for instance, in a sticky substance in a pool of oil or maybe glue or people might think of something like silly

putty or play-doh. That`s actually like a plastic print. If you have this adherent backing on the back of it, when you peel it off, you actually can

leave the omage of your prints behind. Remember, the prints left behind. We have friction ridges on the end of our fingers and that leaves the

impression.

BANFIED: I want to bring in Anthony May and Jimmy Oxley, if I can. Anthony, I`ll begin with you. What we know so far about the actual pipe

bombs themselves is that they are small. They are considered to be rudimentary but operational. They contained shards of glass, and then there

is this sticker that you can see that looks like sort of a crude ISIS image, like an ISIS flag image. I`m going to go to the components first.

And also on the CNN delivered bomb there was a digital timing device. Walk me through what some of those components tell you if you`re investigating

this and trying to find the sender.

ANTHONY MAY, SECURITY AND EXPLOSIVES CONSULTANT: Well, Ashleigh, good afternoon. The components of the devices are all similar to the ten. So

that that will help lead and identify the perpetrator eventually. Now, as far as the components themselves, PVC pipe is standard, we`ve seen that a

lot throughout the country along with galvanized pipe. They contain the filler, which could be some kind of a hazardous material, energetic

explosive that has yet to be identified. Then it contains some wiring and the one from CNN I believe was a digital timing device on the outside of

the pipe.

Now, a timing device is not normal or not usually found in a mailed package because the idea is mailed bombs, letter bombs, are designed to get a

particular target and there`s no way you can guarantee that your target will be accessible at the appropriate time. So it`s kind of unusual that

there is a digital clock to this thing.

So, you know, just looking at the x-rays from the devices, it`s quite clear that there is a substance inside which the bomb squads are concerned about.

However, the x-ray also reveals some other good intelligence about this device. It allows them to handle it safely and remove it from the site.

BANFIED: OK, so you just hit upon something I think is fascinating. And Jimmy, I`m going to bring this to you, but the fact that all ten of these

explosive devices, a, did not explode thank god in the hands of a courier or mail handler or someone`s executive assistant or someone just walking

besides that courier on the sidewalk or the mail carrier, none of these exploded and we are told all are in tact. When they were taken away to

secure locations, they were not detonated, they can be kept in tact, which I can only mean for someone in your business means a wealth of information,

forensic was in information, tracking information. Am I wrong?

JIMMIE OXLEY, EXPLOSIVES RESEARCH SPECIALIST, UNIVERSITY OF RHODE ISLAND: You are correct that it`s - it is indeed as you called a wealth of

information. You`ve already had tom talk about all the things you could see on the package and jay referred to the fingerprint and the DNA evidence. I

will say had the pipe exploded, you still might have had all of those. As a person who has made 130 pipe bombs and set them off on purpose for

research, if you don`t begin to obliterate everything. You have all kinds of evidence left. In fact, I collect the frags and take a look at them and

analyze them. So no matter what there is lots of evidence when a device is initiated. The question of course goes why are we so lucky, ten devices and

ten non-detonations.

BANFIED: So Tom Fuentes, way in on the flag, on that image of the ISIS flag. Some have said, don`t read too much of that. It`s an image that could

be Googled and printed off and set off as a red hearing. Others have said, its what would investigators see in that flag?

FUENTES: J just what you`ve said, Ashleigh. They`d see both sides of that. Maybe it`s an isis supporter, maybe it`s not. Maybe it`s something put in

there as a joke. They don`t know. probably at this point until they learn more about the devices, how they were put together, if there`s a signature

method of manufacture or assembly of the explosives, I think they`re just going to take that as one more piece of information that may or may not be

relevant.

BANFIED: Jimmie, real quickly on the notion that the glass shards were found, to our knowledge, inside the pipe as opposed to affixed somehow to

the outside, any of the projectiles I`m told in many of the bombs are more effective on the outside, therefore they have more trajectory if the bomb

explodes. Is that incorrect or is there something to that from an investigative nature when you`re trying to find the person who did it?

(INAUDIBLE)

BANFIED: You know, Jimmie, I`m going to jump in. we`ve got a bad signal with you right now so while we get you reestablished. If it`s okay,

Anthony, would you mind fielding that question, just the notion that the projectiles are all inside the actual device and not sort of the easier -

sort of easier explosive trajectory by (INAUDIBLE) the outside?

ANTHONY MAY, SECURITY AND EXPLOSIVES CONSULTANT: Absolutely. I`d be more than happy to answer that. Basically, typically what you see when shrapnel

is added to device, it`s typically added transact personnel, but it`s typically added on the outside. Now, that doesn`t mean that we`ve never

seen it put inside. That`s not true because I have. I`ve recovered devices that have had shrapnel inside. But what`s going to happen here is that

takes up some of the space for the explosive material so you`ve got less explosive material if it`s inside the pipe, and the exposed material has to

disrupt the container and project the fragments of the container as well as the shrapnel at the same time. So you`re losing some energy there. It`s not

a bomb builder that knows what he`s doing probably would have put it to the outside.

BANFIELD: All right. I want you to hold that thought for a moment because there`s something sort of fascinating that if you don`t spend a bunch of

time in a courtroom watching criminal trials and evidence, you may not know just how specific the every day products you buy at home, how specific they

actually are when you get down to the microscopic level. Like a piece of paper in your printer, right? Looks like a million others, right?

Sometimes there are products like this that have little striations in them when they`re flying through the machines on which they`re manufactured, and

sometimes those striations are so unique you can trace them to the lot.

And then you can trace that lot to the store and then you can trace that store to the point of sale, and then you can trace that point of sale to

the person who bought it. So how about all those bomb components? Can you do that? That`s next

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDEINTIFIED MALE: Responding officers identified the device to be geared to be a live explosive device.

UNIDEINTIFIED FEMALE: PVC piping, explosive powder, glass after sharnel, a digital clock linked to a battery. Put in a manila envelope with those six

American flags stamped

UNIDEINTIFIED MALE: And we see an extraordinary clear pattern.

UNIDEINTIFIED MALE: There is a lot of forensic value in the devices because none of the things have gone off.

UNIDEINTIFIED MALE: You have fairly intact devices that are going to be able to provide a lot of clues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: A lot, a lot of clues. Clues that we can start unpacking even before tonight. Because even as the FBI experts begin to unpack all ten

packages, even as all 10 devices are being carefully dismantled we know just enough details to start connecting the dots to get a sense of what the

sender wanted and whether mass murder was really the intention. Paul Callan and Joey Jackson, I have sat on enough sets with you and discussed enough

murder cases with you to know that you have seen these things play out before.

And if you`re an average Joe in a living room, you`re not going to know the stuff that you know, you know or the FBI knows. Start with the printer ink.

What do you know about cases that have zeroed in on ink from a printer?

PAUL CALLAN: Well a lot of people would be surprised to know there`s a science to actually dating inks that you use on pieces of paper. Obviously

there is of great interest to the IRS if you`ve been back dating receipts to show you deserve a deduction. The IRS can say that inning according to

chemical analysis wasn`t produced until 1980 and you`re trying to collect a deduction for before that.

BANFIELD: Unbelievable. Ink has a signature.

CALLAN: Absolutely. And it comes frequently in cases where the date that something happened is issue.

BANFIELD: Does the cartridge of ink that you buy have a signature?

CALLAN: Well, the cartridge will have a signature by the company of course that manufactured it. But you can then do a sub analysis of the ink itself

to determine and also now --

BANFIELD: So put the picture up while you`re saying this - put the picture of those packages and the specific addresses boldly printed. Lots of ink

was used on these addresses up the return address and delivery address. I mean every piece of paper looks the same, all the printing, all the font

everything.

CALLAN: And really had an impression with me because when you look at a font and how it`s printed out, that can give you a hint of, yes, the

cartridge that was used but possibly the printer that made the letter. Then can you look and say when was that printer sold and where was that

print are sold? That a very, very substantial clue that can be created by the lettering itself.

BANFIELD: This feels so new. It feels like it`s not in the most recent episodes of Forensic Files honestly. To be able track someone to the ink

you printed. But there`s something even -- it gets better. The products you buy. Look at these envelopes. Do you think someone had 10 of these

envelopes Joey lying around the house?

JACKSON: Even if they did, they would have had to purchase it at some point. So that`s where the plot thickens. Paul addressed the issue of the

actual the ink. But you have to put the ink on something. And you`re just referencing as we see the actual envelope.

So when you buy the envelope, apparently there are - you know you can really track it down to the striations on the particular envelope. And in

fact envelopes have fingerprints in it of themselves. So here was a case and you and I were talking about it, the Melanie McGuire case. They

called the suitcase murder. And just by analogy I`m using that. So she chopped up her husband`s body, put them in suitcases but she put the body

parts in a component bag.

BANFIELD: Garbage bag.

JACKSON: The garbage bags and as a result of the garbage bags the investigators were able to trace the garbage bag. They were able to

identify the striations on the garbage bags, trace the lot to where the garbage bag were purchased.

Trace where garbage bags were sold and traced them to under her sink. And so the particular bags there. And it gives a lot of hope with bringing the

person to justice, that the envelopes themselves in addition to the ink that Paul Callen give us clues to unearth who this person is.

BANFIELD: So the idea goes further. if they can find the lot that these envelopes or even the tape that rolled off of the roll, if they can find

the product striations from the manufacturing equipment in these particular 10 -- and thank god there`s 10, thank God -- if they can find those

striations, match them to the lot, match the lot to the store, match the store to the time of purchase and get those surveillance cameras to watch

the same time 10 person - 10 times the same person going through those surveillance, well, you`ve got your guy. Jimmy, jump in on this with me if

you will. does any of this sound far fetched to you or does this sound pretty much like the map they`re going to use to track this bomber down?

OXLEY: I think there`s easier clues than the ones you are outlining. Those are certainly possible. But first of all, you would go for fingerprint and

DNA. Those might very well -- you`d go for the easy stuff first.

BANFIELD: Sure, and if that`s not there you have to start getting a little more refined, yes?

OXLEY: Absolutely and then to look at the clock or the time wrist that were -- those type of components are a little more distinctive to find.

And of course I`m pushed as a chemist, I`m waiting to hear what the filler was. We`ve heard nothing about that yet, nor have we heard what the

initiation system was. Those are usually quite strong clues for where the device originated. And as you`ve had guests already point out, there are

cameras in most locations to know who made the purchase.

BANFIELD: Anthony, jump in, if you will. I have been fascinated and I hate to say relieved but definitely relieved that everyone who handled

these 10 packages, unbeknownst to them, they`re OK tonight. They had no idea potentially they were handling a rudimentary but operational explosive

device which leads to the question how did none of these devices explode in transit?

They`re jostled through equipment. They`re thrown on conveyor belts. They`re flung into bins. They`re throw unto doorsteps, popped into

mailboxes. I mean the trucks and the potholes they go over, how is it not one of these actually detonated before it got to the intended destination.

MAY: Well, Ashleigh, that is interesting. The only way to answer that is by taking a look at the x-ray and following the wires. As we`ve already

pointed out, there`s a timer on the outside, there`s a bunch of wires. Somebody asked about the initiator.

There`s been some speculation based on an x-ray that the initiator is actually a hot bridge wire . Well if that if that is the case, there`s not

enough power source in that device to function a hot bridge wire. Those two button batteries is only there to function that digital timers and I don`t

see any other batteries to function anything else, any other type of switch. Now, whether that`s an intentional design by the bomber or a

mistake by the bomber remains to see. but we have been lucky that these 10 devices have not gone off and it`s given as you wealth of information.

BANFIELD: All right. hold that thought for a moment. there is also this notion as we show those pictures, many times up see the packages in a

couple of the pictures you`ve actually seen the device itself, whether it`s the one there to John Brennan, CNN, on the bottom right-hand side or you

see those two images in the middle bottom. But you also see those x-ray shots of what the device looked like.

But the one question that hasn`t been answered yet, how much damage might these have done. We have seen bombers before injure people. We have seen

bombers kill people. What would these devices have done had they been successful? We`re going to let you know next.

[19:30:] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) `

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Responding officers identified a device that appeared to be a live explosive device.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: PVC piping, explosive powder, glass to act as shrapnel, a digital clock linked to a battery, putting a manila envelope

with those six American flag stamps.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We see an extraordinarily clear pattern.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a lot of forensic value in the devices right now because none of these things have really got off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have fairly-intact devices that are going to be able to provide a lot of clues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: It`s not just about the forensics. The manhunt for the serial bomber behind all of this week`s packages won`t just

come down to the clues he left behind. It`ll come down to the steps that he took as well, a kind of killer`s breadcrumb trail that could start to

emerge very soon thanks to simple skills we do every day, we track a delivery.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:34:53] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears that some of the packages were "couriered," they were dropped off. These are residences that have

multiple video cameras, security cameras. So, the video -- the security camera footage is being analyzed right now to see what we can find out.

Because that is one of the major leads that they`re following. And again, every package, more possibility for DNA, more possibility for fingerprints,

et cetera.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: My panel is back with me, and I have some of the most skilled people in law enforcement to answer the most important questions, how will

we find this person and how fast? Tom Fuentes, to you, the idea of security cameras, you can`t walk a New York block anywhere in this country

without being caught somewhere on camera. So, my assumption is that there is a fan out right now and a collection of realtime video in all of the

places, and particularly Opa-locka, Florida, where now we`re learning that potentially these packages may all have been sent from. And real eyes in

real time we`ll be scanning for the same person 10 different times, correct?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, that`s true, Ashleigh. And you probably have dozens of cameras, maybe more in the vicinity of the

Soros home, the Clinton home, the Obama home, all of the postal service facilities, the Time Warner building, exterior and then into the mail room.

So, there would be many, many videos that investigators will be analyzing. If you recall the Boston Marathon Bombing, look at by the third day after

the bombing, the tremendous video pictures of the two bombers walking down the sidewalk in Boston with their knapsacks and baseball hats on. So, that

could --

BANFIELD: I mean, we`re living in Truman Show. It`s -- honestly, with the same person 10 different times, it`s just a little too coincidental if he

or she shows up in 10 different images. Hold for one second. Jimmie, many of us obviously in this building, were very concerned yesterday during the

evacuation. This is a massive, massive double tower, and that`s hard in New York to see two towers being evacuated. Many of us wondered how

powerful could that one mail bomb, letter bomb have been, how much damage, how much death could it actually effectuated?

JIMMIE OXLEY, EXPLOSIVES RESEARCH SPECIALIST, UNIVERSITY OF RHODE ISLAND (via telephone): Not very much. It was a very small device. It`s

intended to be a single person device, somewhat. So, the person who opened it and triggered it would have been hurt, many anybody in a three-foot

radius would have been hurt.

BANFIELD: Yes, and typically, it`s not the intended target. The idiot who sent this has maybe no clue that those intended targets all have handlers

and security and mail assistants and executive assistants. So, typically, it is the most innocent who can be affected by these things and have been

in the past. So to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, about the dynamics of the actual bomb, inside those bombs were glass shards. And to many of the --

you know, the average Joe out there, they just look like pieces of broken glass, but to someone like you, they look completely different and they`re

traceable. How?

JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes. You know, if there`s shards of glass, we have to assume that they were obviously broken

prior to the construction of this bomb. So, one of the things that happens is that we`re looking for glass fracture patterns. It`s important for us

to understand that the glass has to originate. And, you know, lots of us pass by glass items every day. We don`t think about it. But let`s think

about this for instance, what type of glass is it? Does it come out of a standard window pane, did they get it -- is it safety glass out of a car or

is it an old whiskey bottle that has been fractured and cracked? This is important. If the origin -- if that glass, the point of origin still has

remnant back at the scene, you can take those fragments that are there and potentially match them up --

BANFIELD: Match them up.

MORGAN: -- with the point of origin. Yes.

BANFIELD: So, I have two other issues I need you to hit if you can in 30 seconds, and that is that there are tear patterns on the tape that was

used. They rip it off in a certain pattern and wires are cut with some device potentially in the home or office of the -- of the perpetrator. And

how do you actually track that?

MORGAN: Yes. Actually, just like with the glass, we`re thinking about the tearing of the tape. This again is a fracture pattern that goes back to

the tape. This has been used in countless cases over and over again where you actually match up these torn pieces end to end. Now, back to the

wires, where they`ve been crimped and cut and all that sort of thing, that can go back to a specific tool mark that`s used in order to attach these

wires. So that is a specific point of individualization, that`s we refer to it in forensic science that can tie back to an individual.

BANFIELD: Everything you touch leaves some kind of a fingerprint and it`s not just literal.

MORGAN: You`re right.

BANFIELD: It`s remarkable, there are just so many microscopic crime fighting tools out there today.

MORGAN: Yes.

[19:40:03] BANFIELD: Joe, hold your thoughts for a moment. We are getting so good -- we are so good at tracking people who think they know better,

because the amount of time it takes to find them is getting shorter and shorter and shorter. U.S. law enforcement has a very long history of

tracking down serial bombers. So, up next, we`re going to take a look at the lessons learned from the Ted Kaczynski investigation and how that is

and may just work as an application in this case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:45:20] BANFIELD: The clues may come from the packages, the clues may come from the pipe bombs or maybe the delivery service or surveillance, but

any crime expert will tell you that some clues come from the past. As a tragic and targeted as this week`s deliveries seem to be, the person behind

them is not the first to send deadly bombs. We`ve seen this behavior before, the Oklahoma City bomber to the Unabomber, which means we have

found a way to hunt these people down. My panel is still with me, and I`m joined also by Dr. Daniel Bober, a forensic pathologist. Dr. Bober, I want

to go to you on this because I want to get your thoughts right off the bat. You`ve seen the 10 packages, you`ve seen the similarities. Do you think

we`re dealing with one person or more?

DR. DANIEL BOBER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: I think it`s probably going to -- going to end up being one person, but what`s interesting is, and you

touched upon it earlier is, was this person`s motivation to kill or was it simply to create fear and chaos? And I think that`s the biggest question

we have to answer, because the person clearly has some level of technical sophistication but not a lot. And so, if you look at bombers from the past

like Eric Rudolph or Ted Kaczynski, they all had an ax to grind, they all had anger for some reason. But the question is whether this person was

intending to kill or were they just simply trying to create fear and chaos? And I think that, for me, is the biggest question as a forensic

psychiatrist.

BANFIELD: So, you touched on a few of the ones from history and these ones definitely intended to kill and did so. I just want to go over a couple

because I`m so interested in the fact that most, if not all, I may be wrong, but are men. They just tend to be men who do this. Theodore

Kaczynski, Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber took us 17 years to find him, but we did. Eric Rudolph, it took us five years to find him, but we did.

Walter Leroy Moody, it took us less than a year, just over six months to find him, but we did. Mark Conditt, that`s just earlier this year, it took

us 18 days to find him, but we did and he blew himself up. And then there was Timothy McVeigh, and he was caught the same day. So, it is entirely

possible that we are getting faster and faster at tracking these people and will be this time around. Many of them are anti-government. What do you

have make of that, Dr. Bober?

BOBER: Well, I don`t think it`s surprising that this person has some kind of extremist ideology. But we may be able to see the technical trigger,

but the question is what is the emotional trigger? What is it -- is it the negative rhetoric? Is it the vitriol that`s being spewed out now every day

that put this person over the edge? It very well might be, and that`s something we need to look at as a society.

BANFIELD: Let me ask you, Paul Callan, would this be a federal crime and a state crime? We`ve seen that before.

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Oh, absolutely. Every state where some aspect of this criminal act occurred, they could bring a charge. There`s a

federal charge, though, that definitely screams out, and that`s use of a weapon of mass destruction. That was used in the Boston Marathon case, and

there were 30 counts in that indictment, 30 convictions, and it also calls for either life or the death penalty.

BANFIELD: And with death, that often results in a negotiation for life as so many of those cases. Very quickly, 30 seconds left, it is hateful what

this person did. But is it a hate crime?

JOEY JACKSON, HLN & CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know what, it`s not going to much matter. It will matter with regard to his motivations, with regard

to his intent, but in terms of punishment, Ashleigh, it`s not going to make a bit of difference. He`s facing life, and that`s whether it`s a state or

federal prosecution. Most assuredly, it`ll be a federal prosecution.

BANFIELD: And I am here to say that I -- we`ve had this conversation before we went to air, I think it`s going to happen before the week is out,

I really do. I feel like there`s just --

JACKSON: I hope you`re right.

BANFIELD: -- too much forensic evidence, 10 times over, and maybe we`re not done yet. Maybe there will be additional pieces of evidence that show

up, you know, to others on the hit list, if there are. God, I hope not, and God forbid, any mail carrier or courier or innocent person ends up hurt

by all of this. Anthony May (ph), Jimmie Oxley, Joseph Scott Morgan, Tom Fuentes, Dr. Daniel Bober, Joey Jackson, and Paul Callan, thank you all.

Especially, since this is our final show. It`s been lovely to have you all and your incredible expertise weighing in on this.

JACKSON: We love you, ash.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Ashleigh. And good luck, Ashleigh.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Ash, we love you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you so much.

BANFIELD: Thank you so much. Something else that --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re the greatest.

BANFIELD: Oh, God bless you. Well, you know, I have been so proud to work with the CNN family and the HLN family for the last seven years, and

there`s a really good reason. Everybody here is amazing, but also there`s this, every fall, we`ve been honoring 10 ordinary people who make an

extraordinary difference. But what happens after we shine the spotlight on their work?

[19:50:08] For 2016 top 10 hero, Brad Ludden, it means expanding his mission of brining healing, adventures to young adults with cancer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD LUDDEN, CNN HERO: In 2016, CNN Heroes featured us on an international stage, and since then, we`ve been approached by a bunch of different

patient advocacy groups, inquiring as to whether or not our programs would apply to their populations. Those conversations led us to believe that

young adults within us could benefit from this type of adventure-based healing.

We`re excited to pilot our first program for young adults with M.S. I`m pretty overwhelmed with far the organization has come. I`m just so humbled

by it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And we are humbled by the heroes. But who will be this year`s top 10 CNN Heroes? You can find out this Thursday, November the 1st, when

they`re revealed live on CNN "NEWDAY."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Finally tonight, I`d like to take a moment to thank you for being part of our CRIME & JUSTICE family. For the past two years, you`ve

welcomed our team, there have been 22 of them that you haven`t been seeing behind the scenes but they are the most talented and hardworking

investigative journalist in the business. You`ve welcomed them into your home and we have done what we do best, drilling down to dig out the facts,

tell the inside stories of some of the most mysterious and frankly some of the most outrageous crimes. Seeking justice for those who might not have

been able to speak out for themselves.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Tonight, he may just be America`s latest serial killer. An amber alert for a young girl who disappeared from her church. Some crimes

were so heinous, there isn`t enough justice in the world. The offender made the mess. Why won`t you own that? Why do you blame the victim? You

did it. You molested an 11-year-old. You know, that`s what you did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why don`t we get back to the subject in hand?

BANFIELD: O.J. Simpson has been granted parole after nearly nine years in prison. It`s the scene of the largest mass shooting in United States`

modern history. That breaking news out of Parkland, Florida in Broward County where at least 14 people taken to local hospitals but the number of

dead is still being tallied. Jessica (INAUDIBLE) was hanging on for life in her bedroom closet. The cop set up this whole fake murder scene and

then videotaped her when they fake told her, her husband was dead. She doesn`t know this is fake. Good acting. I saw the coin. It doesn`t

matter that there`s someone going by, he still so brazenly got a look. A man is accused of making his way into a romantic rival`s home dressed as a

meter reader. Look at the video.

But when Katrina went to go and collect that jackpot, the casino said no dice. They say that the New York Gaming Commission is real clear about --

look, if there`s a malfunction, there`s a malfunction. What`s been going on in the O.R.? He lied to all of us. Why are we to suspect for a moment

he`s not going to lie to the police about his beautiful wife Shanann who couldn`t have said anything but loving things towards him and more loving

things towards those little baby girls that he says she strangled? He says. The liar, the liar says. What exactly was your beef that you had a

bad date with Aziz Ansari? But if you just had an unpleasant sexual experience, you should have gone home. You have chiselled away at a

movement that I along with all of my sisters in the workplace have been dreaming of for decades.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: That`s why I love working here.

JACKSON: The best in the business right here.

BANFIELD: You get to do all these things.

CALLAN: The absolute best. The absolute best.

BANFIELD: You can just say all of these things, you get to, you know, speak up for those who maybe aren`t speaking up for themselves. And by the

way, in case you didn`t notice, Paul Callan and Joey Jackson started everything with me seven years ago.

JACKSON: We did. We started with Ashleigh.

CALLAN: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: My CNN set, which is why you are my legal analysts tonight for the final show, and I thank you.

JACKSON: You are amazing.

CALLAN: My pleasure. And you`re a T.V. lawyer that I learned a lot of law from. I`ll have to tell you that, you really are.

BANFIELD: You need to go back to school.

JACKSON: Law, law, life, humanity, pleasantness, just incredible, incredible human being.

BANFIELD: I got to wrap it there.

JACKSON: We love you.

BANFIELD: And I want to thank all of my colleagues here at CNN and HLN for seven fantastic years, and I wish you all the successes.

END