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CRIME AND JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD
Judy Malinowski`s Last Word; Disturbing Developments; One More Thing; Mystery After Model`s Decomposing Body Found; Two Babies Mysteriously Found Dead Near Home; Apple Store Robbery; Case Of The Dancing FBI Agent. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired July 10, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Body of a beautiful aspiring model and actress is found in a community garden in Florida. Now police are
investigating the death as a homicide. What happened to Jennifer Salcito and why?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I cannot believe it. I`m in shock, in disbelief that these two beautiful little girls are gone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For any parent to lose two children let alone one is nothing more than tragic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know that he killed your daughter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I didn`t know anything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you know she was buried under the home?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it true that this young man actually told investigators that he did there to his mother, because his mother ran off
his girlfriend?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you know she was under the porch?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No comments.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. This is "Crime and Justice."
Tonight the morbid mystery that has rock a small beach town in Florida. That is where a neighbor noticed a strange smell coming from the community
garden and where police would find a dead woman`s body half hidden in the brush. We don`t know exactly how she died, but we do know that she was
Jennifer Salcito, you can see her there, a local aspiring actress and also a beautiful model who wanted to be the next big star according to her
online profile, but Jennifer May have been dead for days by the time she was found. And her death is now being investigated as a homicide.
I want to bring in our panel on this breaking story, Ray Caputo, he is an anchor and he is a reporter for news 96.5 WDBO, and also CNN law
enforcement contributor and former FBI agent and investigator, Steve Moore. And defense attorney, Anahita Sedaghatfar. Ray, let me start with you.
What do we know about this woman? Apparently, what -- her body had been there for days?
RAY CAPUTO, REPORTER, NEWS 96.5 WDBO: A couple days, Rita. That is what they think just based on the decomposition, but she was found the day
before the fourth of July. And she was partially covered in a community garden. Now, for those people who don`t know a community garden, it is
basically what it sounds like. It is a little area in a neighborhood where people grow vegetables and stuff.
And you know, the neighborhood by any stretch of the imagination wasn`t upscale, but it didn`t look like a bad neighborhood. And here is the thing
about Miss Salcito, is that, some people said that they saw her wearing the same clothes, so she was possibly homeless and she perhaps had fallen on
some hard times. You know, we know that she was an aspiring model and actress, but, you know, at the time this all happened, it appeared that she
could have been homeless.
COSBY: You know, Ray, tell us about this profile, because as you point out, we are still trying to get a lot of details on this case, but
apparently she has this explored talent profile, she was an aspiring model, you can see these pictures. An actress, what do we know about her and what
is she sharing on that profile?
CAPUTO: It really humanizes this young lady, because you know she sounds like an ambitious young woman that had dreams. And it said that she was
fun loving, that she, you know, thought that she had what it takes to make it big. She said that she was an excellent actress. She could sing really
well. You know, it is quite sad because a lot of us, you know, when we have big dreams of doing things and the way it seems is that, you know,
right before this happened, things just weren`t panning out for Miss Salcito.
COSBY: What do we know about the neighborhood? Because, you know, we hear about sort of this beautiful area, but yet Delray Beach, I`m sort of
familiar with that area, I know it quite well, but this was more inland, it wasn`t sort of the coastal beautiful area. There is beautiful inland, but
on the outside, you know, you see the beach and all that stuff. This was a little more inside, right, Ray?
CAPUTO: Yes, it was just to the west of like the intercostal water way. You know, it is just north of Boca Raton that is where Delray Beach is
between West Palm and Fort Lauderdale. You know, the neighborhood, you know again, it wasn`t an upscale neighborhood, but, you know, it wasn`t,
you know a slum by any stretch of the imagination. And yes, this little community garden, that it was kind of quaint. You know, there were some
quants houses there, but it was, you know, a little bit inland from the beach. So, you know id big Delray Beach there were sand and sun, but it
was a little more inland than that.
COSBY: You know Steve Moore, when we hear all this and the fact that the body had been there for some days, how hard is that to now piece this
together? Because they believe it was a homicide based on what do you think, Steve?
STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: Well, there were probably visible marks, probably a cause of death was at least in some way indicated
and probably been born out through autopsy. A body that has been decomposing two days is not going to lose a lot of the evidentiary value of
what you find. And so they have more than enough I believe to go on that it is a murder and probably have some things to go on as far as cause of
death. And cause of death will lead you into a specific direction frequently.
[18:05:19] COSBY: You know, Steve, the body was decomposing apparently somebody in this garden that Ray was just talking about, they could smell
the odor of this beautiful girl who had a whole life ahead of her. So heartbreaking, Steve.
MOORE: Yes, it is. And the odor is unmistakable. And it is tragic, but the way you make things as right as you can be, is you go back and you find
out what happened here. And again what is really going to be important is finding a person or persons that she had been seen with in the past -- in
the previous days.
COSBY: You know that is a great point. And everybody, I want you to look at this picture, because authorities are trying to get as many details as
they can trying to figure out who was with this woman, this beautiful woman who wanted to be an actress. She wanted to be a model. You see these
gorgeous pictures here. And they are trying to put together whatever leads they can and trying to figure out who was with her in the days before. One
of the other things Steve that Ray hit on the fact that they said, she was wearing the same clothes often. What does that tell you, Steve Moore?
MOORE: Well, exactly what your other guest said, that she may have been homeless, she may have not -- she may have gone into certain types of
areas, certain types of activities. You know, and you never know until you start doing a background, because what you are doing --.
COSBY: What are you suggesting, Steve Moore? What are you suggesting?
MOORE: I`m saying that people can take on risky lifestyles. When they are in despair, they can take on substance abuse, they can do other things to
make money. Or they can simply have, you know late onset schizophrenia or something. We`ve seen the homeless people around talking to inanimate
objects. I mean, we don`t know what is going to happen, but I can tell you that the police are doing essentially a background investigation on
Jennifer to find out who she was and what she was in the past six months of her life. That will lead them to where they need to go.
COSBY: And Anahita, you know, there are still so many unanswered questions at this time. Where would you lead to, because they do believe it is a
homicide, so I think they know a lot more than that they are telling us, Anahita?
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I agree with you. I agree with you. A lot of times police don`t reveal everything they know, they don`t
want to compromise the investigation, but Steve is right, they want to look at the people she was with, they want to go to her family members, her
boyfriend, her husband. I know that I read a report that her boyfriend lived only a couple blocks away from where her body was found. I`d be
interested to know, had they talked to the boyfriend, did they already say that he is not a suspect. I would assume they have already spoken with
him, we just don`t know because they are not disclosing everything to the media at this point.
COSBY: You know, Anahita, what about social media too? How big of a role do you think that this is going to be and piecing this together, because,
so often and you`ve covered so many of these cases through the years, Anahita, you know, she talks about what she wanted to do. There could be
some leads on there, correct?
SEDAGHATFAR: Right. Social media is huge in every case. They are going to look at her Facebook, her Instagram, her cellphone, her computer to the
extent they can get data from that. They can see who she was in communication with the days before her murder. Who is she talking to, was
she in a fight with anyone, and are there any suspects, anyone out to get her? That in point to be critical in this case.
COSBY: Steve Moore, when authorities were checking the scene, they were wearing surgical masks. Explain that. Was that for the physical evidence,
the odor? It is just so heartbreaking when you hear about this girl who had her whole life ahead, Jennifer Salcito. Somebody who wanted to do
something great with her life and now they don`t know what even happened to her, Steve.
MOORE: Well, you will use suits and protective gear when you are dealing with a crime scene. However when you are using the mask is usually because
the odor is somewhat overpowering. And so I would guess that is what we`re looking for. And again, the key here is Jennifer left behind the best
evidence she could. She left her body behind. Which will tell the medical examiner whether she had been physically assaulted, whether she had been
sexually assaulted and all this things. I mean, you may find the DNA of the last person who was with her on her body. In fact I think that is
probably a good possibility. And so right now they are working it from that angle as well.
COSBY: And you know, Steve that they know a lot more, that the cops have to know a lot more than they are saying. You don`t just say it is a
homicide randomly. Why are they not telling us, Steve?
MOORE: As Anahita said, they don`t want to tip off somebody that they may be on to him or looking at them. I mean, think about it this way, if they
thought that this was a random killing and you possibly had a wild killer out there, they would be saying, oh, single women or homeless people or
whatever, you know, report if you see anything.
[18:10:12] This is really -- you know, this is scary, look behind you. No, they are saying, you know, what we got this one under control. When they
don`t talk, when they don`t tell you what they have got, means they have got something.
COSBY: Absolutely. Anahita, you know how much do you think her profession if you will, she is an aspiring model and aspiring actress, and you talk
about her Facebook, I was looking it up that her Facebook apparently there has not been a post for a number of years on her Facebook, but on this
explore talent, it talked about this profession that she wanted to go into and all these dreams. How much of that is often come to play? You know,
there are a lot of bad characters promising a lot of things in those businesses.
SEDAGHATFAR: That is going to play a big part as well. You are so right about that. She wanted to be an actress, a model, a star. As she said on
her profile. So who was she interacting with? Did she perhaps meet somebody online that promised to help get her into a movie or get her in
the industry? You never know, but they certainly going to be able to determine that based upon her social media footprints.
If not Facebook, was it Instagram, is it a cellphone, is it people that saw her that talked that maybe she told about going and meeting somebody, a
stranger. And like Steve also said, maybe she was desperate for money, desperate times lead to desperate measures. Was she doing something that
was perhaps illegal or not necessarily safe as a way to get money? She was apparently homeless at the time according to some reports.
COSBY: Or somebody who promised her something that they did not deliver too. You know there is a lot of fake promises there. Everybody if you
know any details, please make sure that you call authorities right away so we can get some answers for this beautiful girl`s family and put this to
rest. Thank you very much.
And in Fresno, California, police are looking for a group of young men who stormed into an Apple store and began taking everything that they could get
their hands on. That includes iPhone, Mac books and iPad. Police say the goods are worth more than $27,000. Surveillance video shows four men about
16 to 18 years old snapping up the items just before noon on Saturday while a fifth man waits in a getaway car. The items are tethered to security
alarms, so the thieves had to work to get them loose. The stores have and hands-on policy which gives employees from intervening, but a customer
tried to block the doorway and was knocked down. Police hope that this video that you are seeing here will help bring the suspects to justice.
And in Tampa, Florida, an act of violence at a gas station convenience store may have inadvertently saved the victim`s life. So this is silver
lining to it all. The young man is seen on video trying to buy alcohol early Sunday. The clerk told him that there are no alcohol sales after
3:00 a.m. And the man became aggressive. He refused to leave the store and continued arguing with the clerk. The man then punched the clerk,
knocking him to the floor before fleeing on foot. And a day later police arrested this man that you see here, 25-year-old Chance Smith, he was
charged with battery. Police say that the 63-year-old clerk sustained minor bruising to his eye, but as I said, there is some good news in all of
this. According to local reports, the man went for a cat scan after the incident and found that he has a small benign brain tumor that will now be
treated.
And new developments in the case of a so-called dancing off duty FBI agent. In a court hearing today, a judge amended the agent`s protection order now
allowing him to carry a gun on and off duty in keeping with police policy. Agent Chase Bishop, faces a second degree assault charge after his service
weapon fell on the dance floor and fired a shot when he went to pick it up. Another patron at the Denver bar that night was injured by the bullet. The
D.A.`s office also says that toxicology tests do not warrant any further charges in this case.
Tonight a heartbreaking mystery near Kansas City, Missouri. A toddler and a newborn are found dead in their yard on the fourth of July. There is no
cause of death and police have no idea how they died. So why is their mother behind bars? We have the details straight ahead.
[18:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. We are tracking a tragic mystery in Missouri at this hour, where two little girls were found
lifeless outside their home on the fourth of July. Two year old Ireland Autumn Jane and her sister, Goodknight Berretta June, who had been born
just seven weeks earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERESA BAILEY, GRANDMOTHER: I cannot believe it. I`m in shock, in disbelief that these two beautiful little girls are gone. People should
hold tight to their kids and take care of them and love them. Because you only get one shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:20:00] COSBY: And the person who was supposed to be taking care of those beautiful little girls that night is now behind bars. The girl`s
mom, Jenna Boedecker, but she is not charged with the deaths of her babies. She is charged for domestic violence after allegedly a vicious fight with
their dad the night before the girls died.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPTAIN WILL AKIN, CLAY COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: The children look like they were unharmed, but that is something that we are going to have
continue to investigate. It is a tragic situation where two children have lost their lives and we are going to treat this investigation with the
utmost priority to try to get those answers. Not only for everyone who is watching right now, but also for the family. They need closure as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And with me now to talk about all of this is Max Londberg, he is a reporter for the Kansas City Star. Also certified death investigator and
professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan. And CNN law enforcement contributor, Steve Moore is still with me.
And also our defense attorney, Anahita Sedaghatfar.
Let me start if I could with Max. What do we know? It is so weird when we hear this story Max, and you go, OK, well, the kids are dead, but she is
just charged with domestic assault. Explain why is she being charged with domestic violence?
MAX LONDBERG, REPORTER, THE KANSAS CITY STAR: Sure. Thank you for having me. She is charged with domestic violence from an incident that happened
just about 12 hours before her daughters were found dead. According to police records, she got into an altercation with the father of the children
outside their home. It involved an argument over infidelity. And she allegedly threw a brick at his truck and then rammed his truck with a jeep
patriot. So she is charged with three felonies.
COSBY: She accused him of what? Cheating is what you are saying, so she threw a brick at his car?
LONDBERG: That is the allegation, yes, in police records.
COSBY: And then what happened? So this is the night before. What time was this and what time were these beautiful kids found?
LONDBERG: The alleged altercation occurred about midnight Tuesday the day before the fourth of July. You now, now these children, they were found
unresponsive about 12 hours later, noon, on the fourth of July.
COSBY: So the kids were found by whom and what kind of -- were they dead at the scene? Give us the details on that, Max.
LONDBERG: Sure. The local sheriff`s office, they received a 911 call from a neighbor. The local fire department responded. They pronounced the two
girls dead on the scene. And the mother had earlier gone to the neighbor`s house and told the neighbor that her children weren`t breathing.
COSBY: All right. Let me go to Steve Moore. Because and I want to put up a picture of these two beautiful little girls. It is so heartbreaking, two
very young kids as you can see from the picture. 2-year-old Ireland Autumn Jane and then her sister Goodknight Berretta -- Goodknight Berretta is only
7 weeks old. And Ireland is is two years old, two beautiful little kids. Steve Moore, don`t you think it is a little odd, it is the mom who finds
it, they get in a fight the night before, are those somethings that you are going wait, there is something missing here, Steve?
MOORE: Yes. There is something missing, but maybe not to police here. The reason by the way she is under arrest for domestic violence is because
they don`t want her to leave. That is the best way to hold her until they can finish up the autopsies and determine cause of death. Some of the
things that they are going to be looking at is the possibility that she was angry enough at her husband or at the girl`s father to do harm to his
children. That is on the table. You have to look at that. The other thing is that she possibly did something after the fight with the father of
the children which caused her to be incapable of watching the kids.
COSBY: But Steve, these were her kids, too. I mean that is what is so heartbreaking. It is not just his kids, these were her kids. To kill her
two beautiful daughters too, I mean, that is so sick of a mother to do that if indeed she did.
MOORE: If that is the case. The problem I`d say Rita is what I used to talk to the agents about that work with me, if we thought normally --
people thought normally, we wouldn`t have these kind of crimes. Unbelievably parents kill children frequently. And I hope that this isn`t
the case, but it is something that the police have to take into account.
COSBY: Do you know what I think is interesting, Max Londberg, the reporter there from the Kansas City Star, the mom is held again domestic violence
for now, but the mom is held on what -- it is a pretty high bail or pretty high bond?
[18:25:05] LONDBERG: It is. If memory serves, I believe it is $500,000. And like the person before me said, they may be holding her while they
continue this investigation to determine the cause of death. Or not. It is just too early to say at this time.
COSBY: Anahita, the defense attorney, how do you defend this woman? What just suddenly she walks outside and it is all coincidence that her two kids
are dead?
SEDAGHATFAR: It is tough, but look, the autopsy will be critical here, because --
COSBY: Anahita, it is more than tough. It is almost unbelievable. Anahita that is how far I go.
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree with you to a point, because without the autopsy report, the police can`t charge anybody with anything. They at least need
a cause of death here. Once they get that, the toxicology report, then they can make the decision, things can change, but the police have been
very clear Rita that this woman is not a suspect at this point in the death of her two children. They say, they don`t even suspect any foul play here.
So, I don`t want to jump to conclusions. Certainly she was the last person that was with her young children. I mean it could be that she had
something to do with it, but was this a murder, was this a manslaughter, did they die due to some negligence or did she intentionally try to kill
them. I think it is just way too think for now.
COSBY: Don`t you agree Anahita, the bond is at such a high amount for a domestic violence, yes, she threw a brick at the guy`s car, obviously not a
good thing, but that is a high bond? You know that, don`t fool us. You know that.
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree with you, but it is high because of the felonies that she is being charged with. They can`t set bond based upon a possible
charge for murder or homicide. So the law only looks what the she is being charged with now. And it is high, but that is because again the domestic
violence charges are two felonies in this case.
COSBY: It is also Anahita, you know, it is also because they probably think that there is something else too. Because you know that there is
some movement there, you know that.
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree. She might be a flight risk. That is a possibility.
COSBY: Absolutely. Let`s go to Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph, let`s piece this together, because how do you determine how these two kids die. These
two beautiful little girls, you look at them it is like, it is so heartbreaking, your two year old -- look at these beautiful little faces
and a seven week old. First of all, I don`t know what they were doing outside alone even if you buy mom`s story, but the fact that they both die
suddenly? There is something really fishy here.
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC, JACKSONVILLE STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes, it really make bells and whistles go off for me as a death
investigator, Rita. And there is a couple things that we have to consider here. First off, there is a 12 hour gap that has to be accounted for here.
My hope is that at the scene the police tested, members of the medical examiners staff, tested for postmortem interval, at the scene. That is the
changes that the body goes through after death. 12 hours is a big amount, it is large amount of time going down range from that point in time when
they were last seen alive.
Secondly, these little angels are fragile. We have one child that is essentially a newborn. Seven weeks since birth. It doesn`t take a lot to
kill these children. So I know that the Jackson County medical examiner`s office is covering every inch of this case with a fine tooth comb. They
are going to be looking for trauma that is related to the airway specifically I would think, they will be looking for toxicology results
which sometimes can take up to a week, sometimes depending upon the jurisdiction up to a month.
I would hope that they would fast track these to see if these children were exposed to any kind of agents. And you said a mouthful just a moment ago.
Listen, two apparently healthy children do not just spontaneously die. It is rare to have a child that just keels over dead, but now you have two
siblings that are found dead together. So yes, as an investigator, this really raises my level of suspicion here.
COSBY: Yes, it sure does. Thank you very much, everybody. We`ll continue to keep you posted on this case. Meantime, tonight in Ohio, a murder
victim`s words from beyond the grave helped send her attacker to prison for the rest of his life. Judy Malinowski was 32 years old when she was set on
fire by her ex-boyfriend Michael Pfleger. She survived the attack for almost two years before finally dying from her injuries, but not before
vividly describing the attack from her hospital bed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDY MALINOWSKI, VICTIM: He ran around to me and started pouring gasoline. He started at my head and worked his way down. Some got in my throat as he
did that. It burned really bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After he poured the gasoline on you, what happens next?
MALINOWSKI: He backed away from me for about 30 seconds. And I kept telling him to please help me and stop and I`ll get the stuff to go with you. You
know, why would you do this? And I looked at him and he pulled a lighter out of his pocket and he started walking towards me.
And I just remember crying, begging for help. And he lit me on fire and the look in his eyes were -- his eyes went black, literally, after I was set on
fire. That`s when -- that`s when his eyes just turned black, as I screamed for his help. He did nothing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RITA COSBY, HOST, HLN: So powerful. Her deposition was a judicial first in Ohio. And prosecutors were prepared to play it in court during Slager`s
murder trial. But the day before jury selection was set to begin, he cut a deal, pleading guilty to Judy`s murder and accepting a sentence of life in
prison. And that is exactly the punishment that Judy had told the court that she wanted for him.
And in Alabama, yet another death in the family of a man accused of killing his mother and burying her under the front porch. This time, his brother
who is set to be a witness in the shocking murder case. You got to stay tuned for the story. That`s next.
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: I`m Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. Tonight, another dark death in an Alabama family already haunted by murder. It has been almost a
year since 60-year-old Susan Mayo was found dead, buried under her own front porch in a 55-gallon drum barrel with a shotgun wound to the head.
And police say her own son confessed to killing her within minutes of their arrival.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): They said that you confessed. Did you confess? Did you kill your mother?
NATHANIEL SEBASTIAN, SON OF SUSAN MAYO: No comment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): How did you know she was under the porch?
SEBASTIAN: No comment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You don`t have anything to say in defense of yourself? I mean, they`re calling you a monster. Killed your mother, put
her under the porch?
SEBASTIAN: I love my mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): What happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Why are you being arrested?
SEBASTIAN: No comment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You`re not even bothered by the fact that your mother was found today?
SEBASTIAN: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You`re not bothered by that?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: And that was three months after Susan`s other son first reported her missing. And now, that son is dead too. Police say 21-year-old Edward
Mayo, as you can see him right here, he sadly hung himself at his own house facing a picture of his mom.
Edward won`t see his own brother go to trial for their mom`s murder and he won`t be used to testify against him, though Edward already spoke to a
police who say that he was so terrified to talk about his brother that he chewed off his own fingernail.
And I want to bring in our panel to talk about all of this. Syndicated talk show host Dave Mack, also Captain Paul Burch from the Mobile County
Sheriff`s Office. And also on the phone is Tim Fleming. He is the attorney for Nathaniel Sebastian. And defense attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar is still
with us here. Thank you, Anahita.
Let me go to Dave Mack, if I could. Dave, what do we know about this case? This is so chilling because this guy seems so cold and so distant about
everything.
DAVE MACK, SYNDICATED RADIO HOST (via telephone): What we know is that Nathaniel Sebastian had issues and violent issues with his mother. And I`m
curious to see what Captain Burch has to say about the relationship they believe could have existed between Sebastian and his biological mother, who
he murdered or allegedly murdered.
Now with the death of his younger brother, who also had apparently been abused by this 33-year-old bully. We know that everybody around him seemed
to be terrified of him and including his girlfriend that he blamed his mother for actually running off. That might have been the torch of what led
to the shooting.
COSBY: And Dave, to the fact that he was so scared that he chewed off his own fingernail, let`s me go to Captain Paul Burch. What do we know about
the relationship? Was there some sort of sick twisted sexual relationship between him and his mom?
PAUL BURCH, CAPTAIN, MOBILE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Witnesses have, you know, hinted at that. However, we could never get anyone to absolutely
confirm that that happened. We did try to get that from Edward.
[18:40:00] And he would basically kind of shut down the more we would press about it.
COSBY: Well, he is charged with a number of things as you know, Captain Burch. Walk us through what he has been charged with because there is a
series of things that this guy definitely could face.
BURCH: He has been charged with capital murder, which carries if convicted of such would be a life in prison or eventually death penalty. But he has a
host of charges. The case has not gone to grand jury yet. When it is presented to a grand jury, more charges may come.
COSBY: Tell me, Captain Burch, about the key. Apparently, what, he was hiding a key. And also we know one of the other charges is destruction to
a corpse. We are talking about his mom because apparently it was just a brutal death and then also kept her body in the house for a while before he
decided to put her in a barrel under the porch?
BURCH: It was and actual charge is abuse of a corpse. You know, after she was murdered, she was put in a big five-gallon drum and not necessarily
buried right away. The drum was moved a couple different locations before finally being buried up under the porch.
COSBY: And, what, he had a key in his mouth or something, was hiding the key?
BURCH: Yes. When he was arrested, he had a homemade handcuff key that he had secreted in his mouth and kept it there through a very lengthy
interview and it was discovered at the time he was booked into the jail.
Something else that has happened since was that when we had a hurricane or storm last year, you know, he talked to other inmates about attempting an
escape should they be moved during that event. However, we did not have to evacuate anyone from the jail at that time.
COSBY: Wow. Let me show again. This is the interview where he is sort of talking to reporters. It is also very chilling. And I want to play it again
because you just brought up that he was hiding this key in his mouth. I want to play this because we are all going to watch this to know he has got
a key in his mouth as he was talking to reporters. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): They said that you confessed. Did you confess? Did you kill your mother?
SEBASTIAN: No comment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): How did you know she was under the porch?
SEBASTIAN: No comment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You don`t have anything to say in defense of yourself? I mean, they`re calling you a monster. Killed your mother, put
her under the porch?
SEBASTIAN: I love my mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): What happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Why are you being arrested?
SEBASTIAN: No comment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You`re not even bothered by the fact that your mother was found today?
SEBASTIAN: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): You`re not bothered by that?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: Meanwhile, he had a key in his mouth the whole time. We`re going to have much more on this wild story and a lot of new updates right after the
break.
[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. We are still talking about the Alabama family rocked by a young man`s suicide, nearly a year to
the day after police say his older brother killed their mom, shooting her in the head and burying her under the porch.
But it took three months for police to find Susan Mayo`s body. Three months that older brother, the suspected killer`s son, spent hamming it up for the
local news cameras.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEBASTIAN: I`m horribly depressed. You know, I mean, I got detectives, you know, trying to claim murder when they should be looking for my mother, you
know. This has all been a three-ring circus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Let`s continue with our panel. I want to go back to Dave Mack because, Dave, this guy idolized John Wayne Gacy, right, who is also a
serial killer who put his victims under the house, too, by the way.
MACK (via telephone): John Wayne Gacy is the reason why I am afraid of clowns to this day. He buried 33 young men underneath his house. It was
only after apparently the detectives started doing research on Gacy and that`s when they all of a sudden decided to look under the house.
That`s when Nathaniel Sebastian decided to finally come clean. He actually was in jail up until the day before the arrest on the murder charge because
he was messing with the detectives when they were in there doing a search in the previous months. This guy terrorized the cops --
COSBY: He was arrogant. And then when the cops found it, he basically said, I did it. Explain what he said to the cops because I think that`s
what is so damning about this very sick man.
MACK (via telephone): Bottom line, as soon as they are standing there right by the porch, right by the lattice, he says oh, you got me, she`s
buried under the porch. That was it. He just got to it right away. He knew once they were looking under there, they had everything they needed, they
were going the find her. She was three feet down but they knew exactly what they were looking.
By the way, Rita, if you look on his Facebook page, he has got pictures of himself standing on that porch a day or two before it happened, taking
pictures of the work he was doing on that porch. It`s just creepy.
COSBY: It`s really creepy. Also I want to play a little bit, this is where he is talking about snakes for dinner, just to give us a sense of who this
guy is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[18:50:06] SEBASTIAN: Tonight, snake is what to eat. Tonight, snake is what to eat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: No, thank you. Let`s go to Tim Fleming. He is the attorney for Nathaniel Sebastian, the guy who was talking about snakes for dinner and
everything else. Tim, he said oh, you got me, when authorities show up at the house. His mother is in the barrel under the house. You are the defense
attorney for this guy. You explain this to us.
TIM FLEMING, ATTORNEY FOR NATHANIEL SEBASTIAN (via telephone): First off, you know, this case has been going on for a year and this is the very first
moment I have heard that he has been charged with capital murder and that a shotgun was used. That`s absolute news to me. We didn`t have a preliminary
hearing on those charges. We had a preliminary hearing on murder charges. New ball game.
COSBY: By the way, they should give you that information, correct?
FLEMING (via telephone): But they don`t.
(LAUGHTER)
FLEMING (via telephone): I have to learn about it on a national TV show.
COSBY: But you are still defending a guy who shot his mother and she`s under the porch and said oh, you got me. How are you going to defend this
guy?
FLEMING (via telephone): There is any number of defenses available to this case. There is a lot of background with the mother and the kids. I mean,
she was an incredibly controlling, manipulative woman. That`s one of the reasons at least one or two of her children got out of the house.
COSBY: Wait, Tim, she deserved to be killed? Please don`t tell me that`s where you are going to go as a defense attorney.
FLEMING (via telephone): No, I`m not saying that at all.
COSBY: Don`t you dare go there, Tim.
FLEMING (via telephone): I`m not saying that.
COSBY: Don`t go there.
FLEMING (via telephone): I`m not saying that. Not at all. Not at all. But factors will come out in the trial that can show -- lead a jury to the
conclusion of whether it be an insanity defense or didn`t do it at all, covering for his brother. I mean, anything.
COSBY: Tim, the problem you are going to have -- Tim, the problem you`re going to have and you know this, as an attorney, the problem you`re going
to have with insanity, this is a guy when the cops first came, he was like oh, you are not really looking at the right place, but didn`t tell them
that his mother happens to be under the house that they`re looking for.
So he clearly covered up the evidence. He also apparently put her in this barrel under the house. You got a history of a guy who likes John Wayne
Gacy. I don`t think it`s any coincidence the mother is under the house. And also apparently was killing animals for fun. That`s not fun. That`s a sick
man. And maybe he has some mental illness but it sounds like he also had a lot of premeditation too.
FLEMING (via telephone): I don`t know that he was a fan of John Wayne Gacy. I heard that alleged by the state. That`s something that the state is
going to use to try to whip up emotions and inflame potential jurors, but I have no --
COSBY: Tim, was he Mother Theresa? Are we confusing this guy? Is he Mother Theresa?
FLEMING (via telephone): Of course not. Nobody is. Not you nor I.
COSBY: Yeah. But guess what, I didn`t kill my mother and put her underneath the front porch. And I didn`t talk about snakes for dinner. I
didn`t do all these other things. It is all coincidence, right, Tim?
FLEMING (via telephone): Well, he hasn`t been convicted of any murder yet.
COSBY: Well, he is certainly behind bars for it. How is that? Is that coincidence, too?
FLEMING (via telephone): That`s true. That`s true. You don`t get out on a bond on a capital murder case. But they set the bond so high he can`t get
out on the regular murder charge, aside with all the (ph) other charges.
COSBY: Certainly going to be an interesting case. Tim Fleming --
FLEMING (via telephone): It will be.
COSBY: We will have you back on here. Thank you very much. And everybody, we will be right back.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And one more thing for you tonight. Who doesn`t love a good lip sync battle?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Girls hit you hallelujah. Girls hit you hallelujah. Girls hit you hallelujah. Because uptown funk gonna give it to you. Because
uptown funk gonna give it to you. Because uptown funk gonna give it to you. Saturday night and we in the spot. Don`t believe me just watch. Come
on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And the Norfolk Police Department did their lip sync takedown of "Uptown Funk." It is just one take and it has had more than 19 million
views again, on one take. Pretty incredible. It is just one of the hundreds of videos out there from police departments and sheriff offices across the
country that are making it hard for us to get anything done today.
[19:00:01] And by the way, in the the last story, one of the reporters said it was capital murder. It was just murder that he was actually charged
with.
And the next hour of "Crime and Justice" starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This stunned community is still nervous that a grisly murder could happen so close to home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An eerie feeling knowing you know what was I doing while this woman was being murdered in, you know, pretty much my backyard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 26-year-old Catherine Cunningham who was found decapitated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These two beautiful little girls are gone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For any parent to lose two children, let alone one, is nothing more than tragic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know that he killed your daughter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I didn`t know anything.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you know she was buried underneath the home?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did you know she was underneath the porch?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No comment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have anything to say in defense of yourself? I mean, they are calling a monster. You killed your mother and put her under
the porch.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love my mother.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: And good evening, everybody. I am Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield.
And this is the second hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE.
Tonight, a suspected killer is on the lamb. The Washington man accused of decapitating his girlfriend with, get this, a samurai sword. Locals found
Katherine Cunningham`s body back in March on a remote piece of property on an island by a bunker that was chock full of weapons. But investigators
think she had been killed weeks before that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID GUSTAFSON, NEIGHBOR: An eerie feeling knowing you know what was I doing when this woman was being murdered in, you know, pretty much my
backyard. I`m never going to forget, you know, what happened behind my house. I mean that`s never going to go away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: But Katherine`s boyfriend went away. Police saying he stole her car to flee south before abandoning it in northern California. Now,
tonight they are still hunting him down. But they have now charged Jacob Gonzalez with Katherine`s murder because of something else that he left
behind.
And joining me now to talk about all of this on the phone is freelance reporter Dillon Hancoop, also detective Ed Wallace. He is the lead
detective on the manhunt. And also Emma Cunningham, she is Katherine Cunningham`s younger sister. And also, we have with us Jennifer
Cunningham, the mom as well, and also defense attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar.
Let me go first to you, detective Ed Wallace, the lead detective on this case, where do we think this guy is? And what can so many folks out there
watching, what can they do if they are watching tonight?
ED WALLACE, LEAD DETECTIVE ON MANHUNT (on the phone): Currently all the tips we are getting point towards him being this the Merced County area
down in California. We are reaching out to the public. We are hoping that they can give us a hand point us in the right direction of finding him.
The key to the tips, though, we are asking, if somebody sees them in their local jurisdiction call your local police first. Don`t contact us first
because we can`t relay the information quick enough. We need to it the local police as soon as possible.
COSBY: Absolutely. And as you point out, he is now charged with murder. So you would assume he is probably armed and dangerous with this bunker.
Detective Wallace, the bunker that was found near her body, at first some of the clues, and then they found the car later. I know there was a lot of
pieces and in fact 500 miles distance between the two. But describe this bunker. It sounds like it was a survivalist bunker with tons of stuff
inside.
WALLACE: It was. It was dug into the hillside, approximately six feet deep, ten or 15 feet across. It had a false roof on top with wood and
planks. He had vegetation over that so you couldn`t see it. He had weapons ammunition, water and food stored inside the bunker.
WALLACE: Dillon Hancoop, freelance reporter, describe how her body was found. Because sadly this beautiful woman was decapitated. Tell us again
how she was found. Who found her?
DILLON HANCOOP, FREELANCE REPORTER (on the phone): This was the disturbing detail Rita when her body was found. That some guys were looking at
purchasing some property nearby, were just walking in the area, walking through the trees. They found some tarps and thing that seemed out of
place, a small red wagon, and uncovered used their foot to move the tarp and uncovered her body finding that her head was missing basically from the
jaw up. Very, very grizzly scene of course when they stumbled upon that. That`s when they of course called authorities right away to that seen
there. And of course an identification took a while because of the missing parts of Miss Cunningham`s body. Absolutely horrific.
[19:05:14] COSBY: Did they ever find her head, Dillon? Do we know?
HANCOOP: I believe they did. I don`t have those details in front of me on exactly where they found it. But of course as we are talking about it here
we know a samurai sword was involved. And in fact, her stolen vehicle had been found with that samurai sword in the trunk.
Actually, a couple of weeks before her body was found, just a day after this likely happened, none of that made sense down in California until
these missing pieces from up here in Washington state came to bear on this whole investigation. And that`s when it made sense that a samurai sword
had been used to behead this young woman.
COSBY: And also, by the way, the car and the body being found, Dillon, we are talking hundreds of miles away. I want to put back up that map because
it shows the distance. It was huge distance from where her car was found and her body was found, right?
HANCOOP: Exactly right. And again, a gap in time where the car and the samurai sword was found, which didn`t make sense. Of course police
impounded it as a stolen vehicle. They didn`t know what to make of it in California. Find out later that this vehicle is implicated in this search
and this possible murder case which of course it was a murder case but who was the suspect and what was going on with this Jacob Gonzalez and where
was he? There were questions at that time about him possibly going to Nevada. Now again, as we are hearing, he is likely, as the detective was
saying, in the Merced Los Banos area in California, but still hasn`t been found, even with this million dollar manhunt.
COSBY: You know, I want to put up everybody, some of the weapons that were found at the crime scene. Because this guy who is now on the lamb, and
anybody, obviously, do not approach him if you know him or if you see him in the area. Particularly, they are looking around Merced, California but
he could be anywhere. Obviously, contact authorities.
But so much was found at this bunker right where the decapitated body was found. And you see just a whole slew of items. A (INAUDIBLE) which is
wood-stock and scope. Also had a muzzle break on another one. This was a semiautomatic .22-caliber. Also a pump action shotgun. And apparently
these were all loaded.
Detective Wallace, this guy, it sounds like he was preparing for the end of time, it seems like. Detective Wallace, can you hear me?
WALLACE: I can hear you. Can you hear me?
COSBY: Yes, yes, detective it seems like he was preparing for God know what. It seems like doomsday or something or a huge assault. I mean, this
guy was loaded for bear.
WALLACE: Yes. All the neighbors we spoke to, described him as what they would call a bunker nut. He was trying to prepare. Fortunately, if there
was a situation involving us, the weapons were in poor condition, they were loaded. Most of them are rusted. But that doesn`t make them less
dangerous.
COSBY: No, it certainly doesn`t. I want to bring in Emily Cunningham, also Jennifer Cunningham, sister and mom to beautiful Katherine Cunningham.
First of all to both of you, my prayers are with you. I can`t even imagine just how difficult this has been for you and your family. I pray by doing
this story that somebody out there is going to see the face of this guy and maybe has seen him in the neighborhood, has seen him in the community,
didn`t know who he was, didn`t know the background. I`m putting it up there right now because I want some justice for your beautiful daughter and
your beautiful sister.
Tell us a little bit about Katherine, Emma. Obviously, you were close to her and such a tragic loss.
EMMA CUNNINGHAM, VICTIM`S SISTER: My sister and I were really close when we were younger. We kind of grew apart when she left for Washington, but
we still stayed in contact for the most part. And you know, she was very bubbly, happy, fun loving girl. She just wanted the best for everybody,
really. She really liked to help the elderly people which is what she was doing up in Washington, you know. She was just a very caring person all
around.
COSBY: You know, Jennifer, when you found this out, did you know that she was sort of, it sound like obviously dating this guy? Did you know about
this relationship or anything in his background?
JENNIFER CUNNINGHAM, VICTIM`S MOTHER: Yes, they had been together for a while, so we knew him.
COSBY: What did you know about him?
J. CUNNINGHAM: They just been dating on and off for a while. And they were in the air force reserves together. And moved to Washington together.
So they have been together for quite a while.
[19:10:02] COSBY: Can you imagine, was there any problem in the relationship? Did you know of anything, any history with the two?
J. CUNNINGHAM: We did not know of any problems, no.
COSBY: What about his background, too? Because we are learning that he actually was a convicted felon. As we are seeing his face here, he pled
guilty to assault with a firearm in 2012, a number of other things, too.
Jennifer, or Emma, did you know that there was anything in his background, that he obviously had a rap sheet?
E. CUNNINGHAM: We did know about the issue in, I believe, 2012. But other than that, we didn`t know about anything else. That was the only one that
we knew about.
COSBY: You know, Emma, when you hear about all of this, I know, also, your beautiful sister -- it is a so heart breaking when I see her smile and her
face, and obviously a whole life ahead of her. Air force. I am such a big supporter as I know our audience is, of the military, too. And you see
this, her birthday is approaching, too. It just got to be heart breaking.
E. CUNNINGHAM: Yes. That`s the hardest thing right now, is because her birthday is going to be on Saturday. And you know, we are going to want to
call her or get in touch with her and she is not going to be there anymore. We are never going to get to tell her happy birthday again or, you know,
any kind of holiday. We are not going to be able to -- even just every day we are not going to be able to talk to her.
COSBY: You know, Jennifer, it has to be tough for you as the mom, to lose your beautiful daughter.
J. CUNNINGHAM: It is going to be hard on birthdays. We have already had two holidays with her gone. So it`s going to be difficult for a while.
COSBY: I`m sure it is. Well, hopefully we can get some justice for your daughter. Your beautiful daughter with her beautiful smile there.
I want to go to detective Ed Wallace. Because one of the things that put this savage killer and tied him to this case of beautiful Jennifer as we
were talking to the mom and the sister, and Katherine, who was killed, was the samurai sword.
What I`m so confused about, detective s why did it take so long to piece it together because the sword was what, found in the car, in her car?
WALLACE: The sword was fond in her car. To back up a little bit, we had the homicide reported to us on March 5th. The car had actually been
impounded on February 16th. CHP did not know it was stolen at the time. It was simply an abandoned vehicle. The CHP officer did his inventory
impounded the car as abandoned. We reported of the homicide, you know, on the 5th. We put the pieces together that the car is stolen. We were
notified that CHP has car on March 12th.
COSBY: And apparently, was there -- there was his blood, his fingerprints on the steering wheel and also on the handle of that samurai sword, right
detective?
WALLACE: His blood was on the -- or his DNA was on the handle of the samurai sword. Katherine`s DNA in the form of her blood was on the blade.
We recovered both Jacob`s and Katherine`s DNA from inside the car on the steering we will.
COSBY: Let me go to the Anahita. Anahita, you are defending this guy. You have got the DNA, you got the blood, he is on the lamb. Let`s hear
your defense of this guy. I hope that he can get caught and I hope there is justice for beautiful Katherine.
ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He should turn himself in because it`s really not looking good for him. He will be caught. And there is DNA
evidence at this point. And the fact that he fled, that he is in hiding, that`s going to be used as evidence as consciousness of guilt. And that`s
not a good thing for him when this case, if this case goes to trial. So I would suggest he turns himself in. He will be caught and try to negotiate
some type of plea agreement here for himself.
COSBY: Yes. Well, let`s hope he does so he does not hurt anyone else.
Thank you everybody.
And tonight, a heartbreaking mystery near Kansas City, Missouri, a toddler and a newborn are found dead in their yard on the Fourth of July. There is
no cause of death and police have no idea how they died. So why is their mom now behind bars? Details straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:19:05] COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield.
We are tracking a tragic mystery in Missouri at this hour where two little girls were found lifeless outside their home on the Fourth of July. 2-
year-old Ireland Autumn Jane and her sister Good Night Beretta June, who had been born just seven weeks earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERESA BAILEY, GRANDMOTHER: I cannot believe it. I`m in shock and disbelief that these two beautiful little girls are gone. People should
hold tight to their kids and take care of them and love them because you only get one shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And the person who was supposed to be taking care of those beautiful little girls that night is now behind bars. The girl`s mom,
Genoboe Decker. But she is not charged with the deaths of her babies. She is charged for domestic violence after allegedly a vicious fight with their
dad the night before the girls died.
[19:20:05] CAPT. WILL AKIN, CLAY COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: The children looked like they were unharmed. But that`s something that we are going to
have to continue to investigate. It is a tragic situation where two children have lost their lives. And we are going to treat this
investigation with the utmost priority to try the get those answers not only for everyone who is watching right now, but also for the family. They
need closure as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And with me now to talk about all of this is Max Londberg. He is a reporter for Kansas City Star, also, certified death inspector and
professor at forensic at Jacksonville State University, Joseph Scott Morgan. And CNN law enforcement contributor Steve Moore is still with me,
as is defense attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar.
Let me start, if I could, with Max.
What do we know? It is so weird when you hear this story, Max, (INAUDIBLE), the kids are dead but she is just charged with domestic
assault. Explain why is she charged with domestic violence?
MAX LONDBERG, REPORTER, THE KANSAS CITY STAR (on the phone): Sure. Well, thank you for having me. She is charged with domestic violence from an
incident that happened just about 12 hours before her daughters were found dead. According to police records she got into an altercation with the
father of the children outside their home. It involved an argument over infidelity. And she allegedly threw a brick at his truck and then rammed
his truck with a jeep patriot. So she is charged with three felonies.
COSBY: She accused of him of what, cheating is what you are saying, so she threw a brick at his car?
LONDBERG: That`s the allegation, yes, in police records.
COSBY: And so then what happens? This is the night before. What time was this? And what time were these beautiful kids found?
LONDBERG: The alleged altercation occurred about midnight Tuesday, the day before the Fourth of July. Now, these children, they were found
unresponsive about 12 hours later, noon on the Fourth of July.
COSBY: So the kids were found by whom? And what kind of -- were they dead at the scene? Give us the details on that, Max.
LONDBERG: Sure. The local sheriff`s office said that they received a 911 call from a neighbor. That the local fire department responded. They
pronounced the two girl dead on the scene. And the mother had earlier gone to the neighbor`s house and told the neighbor that her children weren`t
breathing.
COSBY: All right. Let me go to Steve Moore. Because -- and I want to put up a picture of these two beautiful little girls. It is so heartbreaking,
two very young kids, as you can see from the picture. 2-year-old Ireland Autumn Jane, and then her sister, Good Night Beretta. Good Night Beretta
was only 7-weeks-old. And Ireland is two years old. Two beautiful little kids.
Steve Moore, don`t you think it is a little odd. It`s the mom who finds it. They get in a fight the night before. Are there some things where you
are going wait, there is something missing here, Steve.
STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. Well, there is something missing, but maybe not to police here. The reason, by the way,
she is under arrest for domestic violence is they don`t want her to leave. That`s the best way to hold her until they can finished up the autopsies
and determine cause of death.
Some of the things they are going to be looking at is the possibility that she was angry enough at her husband or at the girls` father to do harm to
his children. That`s on the table. You have to look at that. The other thing is she possibly did something after the fight with the father of the
children which caused her to be incapable of watching the kids. But all of these --
COSBY: But Steve, these were her kids, too. I mean, that`s what is heart breaking. It is not just his kids, these were her kids. To kill her two
beautiful daughters, too. I mean, that is so sick of a mother to do that if indeed she did.
MOORE: If that`s the case. The problem I would say, Rita, is what I used to talk to the agents about that worked with me. If we thought normally,
people thought normally, we wouldn`t have these kinds of crimes. Unbelievably, parents kill children frequently. And I hope that this isn`t
the case. But it is something that the police have to take into account.
COSBY: You know what I think is interesting, Max Londberg, the reporter there from the Kansas City Star, the mom is held, again, domestic violence,
for now, but the mom is held on what, a pretty high bail, a pretty high bond.
LONDBERG: It is. If memory serves, I believe it is $500,000. And like the person before me said, they may be holding her while they continue this
investigation to determine the cause of death or not. It`s just too early to say at this time.
[19:25:10] COSBY: Anahita, as a defense attorney, how do you defend this woman? What, just suddenly she walks outside, it`s all coincidence that
her two kids are dead?
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s tough. But look, the autopsy will be critical here.
COSBY: It`s more than tough, Anahita. It is more than tough. It`s almost unbelievable, Anahita. That`s how far I would go.
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree with you to a point because without the autopsy report, the police can`t charge anybody with anything. They at least need
a cause of death here. Once they get that, the toxicology report, then they can make a decision. Things can change. But the police have been
very clear, Rita, that this woman is not a suspect at this point this the death of her two children. They say they don`t even suspect any foul play
here. So I don`t want to jump to conclusions. Certainly, she was the last person that was with her young children. I mean it could be that she has
something to do with it. But was this a murder? Was this a manslaughter? Did they die due to some negligence? Or did she intentionally try to kill
them? I think it`s too soon to know.
COSBY: Don`t you agree, Anahita, that the bond is at such a high amount for a domestic violence. Yes, she threw a brick at the guy`s car.
SEDAGHATFAR: No. There are two felonies.
COSBY: Obviously, not a good thing, but that`s a high bond. That is a high --
SEDAGHATFAR: It`s high.
WALLACE: You know that.
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree with you. But it`s high because of the felonies that she is being charged with. They can`t set bond based upon a possible
charge for murder or homicide. So the law only look at what she is being charged with now. And it is high, but that`s because again the domestic
violence charges are two felonies in this case.
COSBY: Yes. It`s also, Anahita, you know, it`s also because they probably think there is something else, too, you know that there is --
SEDAGHATFAR: I agree that she might be a flight risk. That`s a possibility.
COSBY: Absolutely.
Let`s go to Joseph Scott Morgan.
Joseph, let`s piece this together. Because how do you determine how these two kids died? These two beautiful little girls? You look at them, and it
is like it is so heartbreaking. They are 2-year-old, look at these beautiful little faces, and a seven week old.
First of all, I don`t know what they were doing outside alone, even if you buy mom`s story, but the fact that they both die suddenly, there is
something really fishy here.
JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN, CERTIFIED DEATH INVESTIGATOR: Yes. It really makes bells and whistles go off for me as a death investigator, Rita. And there
is a couple of things that we have to consider here.
First off, there is a 12 hour gap that has to be accounted for here. My hope is at the scene that the police tested or members of the medical
examiners` staff tested for post mortem interval at the scene. That is the change has the body goes through after death. Twelve hours is a big
amount. It is a large amount of time going down range from that point in time when they were last seen alive.
Secondly, these little angels are fragile. We got one childhood is essentially a newborn. Seven weeks since birth. It doesn`t take a lot.
It doesn`t take a lot to kill these children. So I know that the Jackson county medical examiner`s office is covering every inch of this case with a
fine toothed comb. They are going to be looking for trauma that is related to the airway specifically, I would think. They are going to be looking
for toxicology results, which sometimes can take up to a week. Sometimes, dependent upon the jurisdiction up to a month. I would hope ta they would
fast track these to see if these children were exposed to any kinds of agents.
And you said a mouthful just a moment ago. Listen, two apparently healthy children do not just spontaneously die. It`s rare to have a child that
just kills over dead. But now you have got two sibling that are found dead together. So, yes, as an investigator, this really raises my level of
suspicion here.
COSBY: Yes. It sure does.
Thank you very much, everybody. And we will continue to keep you posted on this case.
Meantime, tonight in Ohio a murder victim`s words from beyond the grave help send her attacker to prison for the rest of his life. Judy
(INAUDIBLE) was 32 years old when she was set on fire by her ex-boyfriend Michael Slager. She survived the attack for almost two years before
finally dying from her injuries. But not before vividly describing the attack from her hospital bed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He ran around to me and started pouring gasoline. He started (INAUDIBLE) and worked his way around. Some go (INAUDIBLE) as he
did that. It burned really bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After he poured the gasoline on you, what happened next?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He backed away from me for about 30 seconds and I kept telling him to stop, you know, (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RITA COSBY, HLN HOST: So powerful. Her deposition was a judicial first in Ohio. And prosecutors were prepared to play it in court during Slager`s
murder trial. But the day before jury selection was set to begin, he cut a deal, pleading guilty to Judy`s murder, and accepting a sentence of life in
prison. And that is exactly the punishment that Judy had told the court that she wanted for him.
And in Alabama, yet another death in the family of a man accused of killing his mother and burying her under the front porch. This time, his brother,
who was set to be a witness in the shocking murder case. You`ve got to stay tuned for this story. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:36:31] COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. Tonight, another dark death in an Alabama family already haunted by murder. It has
been almost a year since 60-year-old Susan Mayo was found dead, buried under her own front porch in a 55-gallon drum barrel with a shotgun wound
to the head. And police say her own son confessed to killing her within minutes of their arrival.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: They said that you confessed. Did you confess, did you kill your mother?
NATHANIEL SEBASTIAN, SUSPECT: No comment.
REPORTER: How did you know she was under the porch?
SEBASTIAN: No comment.
REPORTER: You don`t have anything to say in defense of yourself? I mean, they`re calling you a monster, killed your mother, put her under the porch.
SEBASTIAN: I love my mother.
REPORTER: What happened?
REPORTER: Why are you being arrested?
SEBASTIAN: No comment.
REPORTER: You`re not even bothered by the fact that your mother was found today?
SEBASTIAN: No.
REPORTER: You`re not bothered by that?
SEBASTIAN: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And that was three months after Susan`s other son first reported her missing. And now, that son is dead, too. Police saying that 21-year-
old Edward Mayo, as you can see him right here, he sadly hung himself at his own house, facing a picture of his mom. Edward won`t see his own
brother go to trial for their mom`s murder, and he won`t be used to testify against him. Though, Edward already spoke to police, who say that he was
so terrified to talk about his brother that he chewed off his own fingernail. And I want to bring in our panel to talk about all of this,
syndicated talk show host, David Mack, also Captain Paul Burch from the Mobile County Sheriff`s Office. And also on the phone is Tim Fleming, he
is the attorney for Nathaniel Sebastian. And defense attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar is still with us here. Thank you, Anahita. Let me go to Dave
Mack, if I could, Dave, what do we know about this case? This is so chilling because this guy seemed so cold and so distant about everything.
DAVID MACK, SYNDICATED TALK SHOW HOST: Well, what we know is that Nathaniel Sebastian had issues and violent issues with his mother. And I`m
curious to see what Captain Burch has to say about their relationship they believe could`ve existed between Sebastian and his biological mother who he
murdered or allegedly murdered. Now, with the death of his younger brother who also had apparently been abused by this 32-year-old or 33-year-old
bully. We know that everybody around him seemed to be terrified of him and including his girlfriend that he blamed his mother for actually running
off. That might been the source of what led to the shooting.
COSBY: And Dave, to the fact that he was so scared that he chewed off his own fingernail, let me go to Captain Paul Burch, what do we know about
their relationship, was there some sort of sick, twisted sexual relationship between him and his mom?
CPT. PAUL BURCH, MOBILE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, witnesses have, you know, hinted at that. However, we could never get anyone to absolutely
confirm that that happened. We did try to get that from Edward. And he would basically kind of shut down the more we would press about it.
COSBY: Well, he`s charged with a number of things, as you know, Captain Burch. Walk us through what he has been charged with. Because there`s a
series of things that this guy definitely could face.
[19:39:59] BURCH: I mean, he has been charged with, you know, capital murder. And, you know, which carries either -- if convicted of such would
be a life imprisoned or eventually death penalty. And, you know, but he does -- has a host of charges of cases not known to grand jury yet. When
it`s presented to a grand jury, more charges, you know, may come.
COSBY: Tell me, Captain Burch, about the key. Apparently, what he was hiding a key, and also, we know one of the other charges is destruction to
a corpse. We`re talking about his mom because apparently it was just a brutal death. And then, also kept her body in the house for a while before
he decided to put her in a barrel under the porch.
BURCH: It was an actual charge of abuse of a corpse. You know, after she was murdered, she was put in a 55-gallon drum and, you know, not
necessarily buried right away. The drum was moved to a couple different locations before finally being buried up under the porch.
COSBY: And what, he had a key in his mouth or something, was hiding the key?
BURCH: Yes, when he was arrested, he had a homemade handcuff key that he had secreted in his mouth and kept it there for a very lengthy interview.
And it was discovered at the time he was booked into the jail. Something else that has happened since was that when we had a hurricane or storm last
year, you know, he talked to other inmates about attempting an escape should they be moved during that event. However, we did not have to
evacuate anyone from the jail at that time.
COSBY: Wow. Let me show -- again, this is the interviewer. He`s sort of talking to reporters. It`s also very chilling. And I want to play it
again because you just brought up that he was hiding this key in his mouth. I want to play this because we`re all going to watch this now, he`s got a
key in his mouth as he`s talking to reporters. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: They said that you confessed. Did you confess, did you kill your mother?
SEBASTIAN: No comment.
REPORTER: How did you know she was under the porch?
SEBASTIAN: No comment.
REPORTER: You don`t have anything to say in defense of yourself? I mean, they`re calling you a monster, killed your mother, put her under the porch.
SEBASTIAN: I love my mother.
REPORTER: What happened?
REPORTER: Why are you being arrested?
SEBASTIAN: No comment.
REPORTER: You`re not even bothered by the fact that your mother was found today?
SEBASTIAN: No.
REPORTER: You`re not bothered by that?
SEBASTIAN: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Meanwhile, he had a key in his mouth the whole time. We`re going to have much more on this wild story and lot of new updates right after the
break.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. We are still talking about the Alabama family rocked by a young man`s suicide. Nearly a year to
the day after police say his older brother killed their mom, shooting her in the head, and burying her under the porch. But it took three months for
police to find Susan Mayo`s body, three months that older brother, the suspected killer`s son, spent hamming it up for the local news cameras.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEBASTIAN: I`m horribly depressed. You know, I mean, I`ve got detectives trying to claim murder when they should be looking for my mother, you know?
This has all been a three-ring circus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And let`s continue with our panel. I want to go back to Dave Mack. Because, Dave, this guy idolized John Wayne Gacy, right? Who`s also a
known serial killer who put his victims under the house, too, by the way.
MACK: John Wayne Gacy is the reason I`m afraid of clowns to this day. He buried 33 young men underneath his house. It was only after apparently the
detectives started doing research on Gacy, and that`s when they all of a sudden decided, hey, let`s look under the house. That`s when Nathaniel
Sebastian decided to finally come clean. He actually was in jail up until the day before the arrest on the murder charge because he was messing with
the detectives when they were in there doing a search in the previous month. This guy terrorized the cops --
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: He was arrogant, and then when the cops found it, he basically said, I did it. Explain what he said to the cops. Because I think that`s
what`s so damning about this very sick man.
MACK: Bottom line, as soon as they`re standing there right by the porch, and there right by the ladder, he said, oh, you got me. She`s buried under
the porch. That was it. He just copped to it right away. He knew once they were looking under there they had everything they needed, they were
going to find her. She was three-feet down, but they knew exactly where they were looking. And by the way, Rita, if you look on his Facebook page,
he`s got pictures of himself standing on that porch a day or two before it happened, taking pictures of the work he was doing on that porch. It`s
just creepy.
COSBY: It`s really creepy. Also, I want to play a little bit, this is where he`s talking about, snakes for dinner, just to give a little sense of
who this guy is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEBASTIAN: Tonight, snake is what to eat. Tonight, snake is what to eat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:49:58] COSBY: No, thank you. Let`s go to Tim Fleming, he`s the attorney for Nathaniel Sebastian, the guy who was talking about snakes for
dinner and everything else. Tim, he said, oh, you got me when authorities show up at the house. His mother is at the barrel under the house. You`re
the defense attorney for this guy, you explain this to us.
TIM FLEMING, ATTORNEY FOR NATHANIEL SEBASTIAN: Well, first off, you know, this case has been going on for a year, and this is the very first moment
I`ve heard that he`s been charged with capital murder and that a shotgun was used. That`s absolute news to me. We didn`t have a preliminary
hearing on those charges, we had a preliminary hearing on murder charges.
COSBY: (AUDIO GAP) correct? Yes. But you`re still --
FLEMING: I have to learn about it on a national T.V. show.
COSBY: You`re still defending a guy who shot his mother and she`s under the porch and said, oh, you got me. How are you going to defend this guy?
FLEMING: Well, there`s any number of defenses available to this case. There`s a lot of background with the mother and the kids. I mean, she was
an incredibly controlling, manipulative woman. That`s one of the reasons at least to -- one or two of his -- her children got out of the house.
COSBY: So, wait, Tim, she deserved to be killed? Please don`t tell me that`s where you`re going to go with as a defense attorney.
FLEMING: No, I`m not saying -- I`m not saying that at all.
COSBY: Don`t you go there, Tim. Don`t go there.
FLEMING: I`m not saying that. I`m not saying that, not at all. Not at all. But factors will come out in the trial that can show, lead a jury to
the conclusions of whether it`d be an insanity defense or didn`t do it at all.
COSBY: But the problem you`re going to have, Tim -- Tim, the problem you`re going to have, and you know this, as an attorney, the problem you`re
going to have with insanity, this is the guy when the cops first came, he was like, oh, you`re not really looking at the right place, but didn`t tell
them that his mother happens to be under the house that they`re looking for. So, he clearly covered up the evidence. He also apparently put her
in this barrel under the house. You`ve got a history of a guy who likes John Wayne Gacy. I don`t think it`s any coincidence the mother was under
the house. And also, apparently was killing animals for fun. That`s not fun, that`s a sick man. And maybe he has some mental illness but it sounds
like he also had a lot of premeditation, too.
FLEMING: Oh, I don`t know that he was fan of John Wayne Gacy. I`ve heard that alleged by the state. It sounds like that`s something that the state
is going to use to try to whip up emotions and inflame potential jurors, but I have no --
COSBY: So, Tim, was he Mother Theresa? Are we confusing this guy? Is he Mother Theresa?
FLEMING: Of course, not. Nobody is. Not you nor I.
COSBY: Yes. But guess what, I didn`t kill my mother and put her underneath the front porch, and I didn`t talk about snakes for dinner, I
didn`t do all these other things, it`s all coincidence, right, Tim?
FLEMING: Well, he hadn`t been convicted of any murder yet.
COSBY: Well, he`s certainly behind bars for it. How`s that? Is that all coincidence, too?
FLEMING: Yes, that`s true. That`s true. You don`t get out on a -- on a bond on a capital murder case, but he just -- they set the bonds high, he
can`t get out, you know, on the regular murder charge, coupled with the other charges.
COSBY: Well, it`s certainly going to be an interesting case.
FLEMING: It will be.
COSBY: Tim Fleming, we`ll have you back on here. Thank you very much. And everybody, we will be right back.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. "ONE MORE THING" tonight, who doesn`t love a good lip sync battle?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: The Norfolk Police Department did their lip sync take-down of "Uptown Funk" in just one take, and it now has more than 19 million views
and counting. They are great. And it`s just one of the hundreds of videos out there from police departments and sheriff offices across the country
that are making it very hard for us to get anything done today. Congrats to them. And just a quick clarification, in the last story, the defendant
is being charged with murder, not capital murder. We will see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00 p.m. Eastern Time. Thanks for watching. You
can catch me also on WABC Radio, "Curtis and Cosby" 12:00 to 3:00. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.