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CRIME AND JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD
Body Recovered Identified As Missing Hart Child; Sin City Shooter; Secrets Revealed; Manhunt Now. Aired 6-8p ET
Aired April 17, 2018 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to "Crime and Justice."
Breaking news for you tonight, out of Mendocino County, California, where police have identified the body of a dead child pulled from the surf last
week. She is 12-year-old Sierra Hart, one of six adopted children raised by two Washington women. Two of those children are still missing tonight,
after police say Jennifer Hart drunkenly and intentionally drove her family off of a cliff to their death.
The bodies of her wife and children have showed the active ingredient of Benadryl. We`re still waiting to see if Sierra`s body and blood will look
the same. Tonight, there is also an urgent manhunt for the Vegas Casino dealer who cops say shot his coworkers at the company picnic. Producer,
Bernice Man is on the-story.
BERNICE MAN, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: The search for that man who is now considered armed and dangerous is extending multiple states. But just
as coworkers are saying they are not surprised.
BANFIELD: All right. We`ll look forward to more on that story, Bernice. It`s a shocking story right across the country. Also, magician, David
Copperfield, spilling some of his secrets and not by choice. He is being sued by a British tourist who was allegedly injured during his disappearing
act. Producer, Justin Freiman is in this story.
JUSTIN FREIMAN, SR. PRODUCER, HLN CNN: That is right. That tourist actually participated in one of the big illusions towards the end of the
show. He says, he slipped and fell and hurt himself. And now that magician, David Copperfield, he is expected to take a stand and be forced
to tell the secrets behind the big illusion.
BANFIELD: Well, a tip in the court, if he take the stand while were on, keep an eye for us Justin -- for us Justin.
Also, another trial involving an unbelievable act just got a shocking witness. The dead victim of a murder. She was doused with gasoline and
set on fire. So Michael Christian, is she going to be able to testify from the grave against her alleged killer?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, HLN: That is absolutely right, Ashleigh. It`s unprecedented, but in Ohio Judge has decided to allow it.
That testimony will be coming up at a trial, presumably going to start in July.
BANFIELD: Wow. I mean, that is precedent setting. Unbelievable.
Adult film actress Stormy Daniels says a man threatened her and her newborn baby daughter in a parking lot in 2011 and take a look at your screen.
Tonight, we have an idea what he looks like. There`s more to this story, isn`t there, Bernice?
MAN: That is right, Daniels just released a sketch of this guy, who she says told her to, quote, leave Mr. Trump alone after they had an alleged
affair, which the President has denied all accusations. But Daniels went on ABC`s "The View" earlier today, offering a $100,000 reward to anyone who
could I.D. that man. She describes him as a lean but fit man, between 5`9" and 6 feet tall and in his 30s or early 40s. And Daniels` attorney now
telling CNN, this man likely worked, quote, indirectly for the Trump organization, or Trump`s personal attorney, Michael Cohen. Daniels`
attorney says they have a good idea who the person might be, but still want the public`s help.
BANFIELD: Wow. That is pretty -- that is an incredible sketch. It`s really, really detailed. Thank you for that, Bernice.
In the meantime, police are taking a look at another gruesome death. The San Diego woman found naked, bound, and gagged and hanging from her
boyfriend`s balcony six years ago. Justin Freiman, they once said this was a suicide in civil court.
FREIMAN: That is right. They said it was a suicide originally, but a civil jury decided, not so fast. They`re holding her boyfriend`s brother
responsible. They awarded $5 million to her family. And now the sheriff`s department says, maybe we need to take another look at this case. And that
is what they`re doing with a fresh set of eyes. We`ll be following that review.
BANFIELD: Wow! So a civil verdict has an effect on a fresh set of eyes looking at the criminal aspect.
Also, we`ve got some incriminating new evidence in the trial against a Missouri millionaire, who`s accused of gunning down a lawyer who was just
on his front porch. Michael Christian, there may be actually a recording of the man admitting that he did it?
CHRISTIAN: That is right, Ashleigh. Prosecutors say that they have a mountain of evidence against David Juggerman (ph), but the smoking gun may
be a recording in which he is quoted as saying, "I murdered the son of a bitch."
BANFIELD: A recording like that, I can`t wait to hear more about that. Michael, thank you.
And also later, police across the country are on the hunt tonight for the Minnesota grandmother accused of killing her husband before taking the life
and the identity of a woman who was her dead ringer $1,500 miles away. And more details are now coming out about what she may have taken from her own
family before she went on this alleged murderous run.
First, though, an urgent search for a Sin City shooter. Police saying Anthony Robel, a disgruntled dealer at the Venetian should be considered
armed and dangerous after shooting two people at a company picnic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[18:05:14] LT. RAY SPENCER, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT: Those employees were having a picnic when the suspect arrived on scene and
walked up to a picnic table where several hotel executives were at.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Authorities say he shot his first victim right in the head and chest. The Vice President of casino operations. They say he then turned
his gun on the Executive Director of table games, who`s reportedly now recovering from a shot to the stomach.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was sitting right here when this happened. Everybody was just freaked out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He went boom and that is the first shot I heard. That is when I turned around and I heard him do the other two shots. I saw him,
boom, boom, boom, and then he ran.
DENNIS DRAKE, WITNESS: He didn`t say a word! He was right here. Yes, and he got her right in the head. And he got another guy in the stomach. And
then he left and went out that way. He didn`t go screeching out. He just kind of move, cruised out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Two days later, Robel is still on the run and police are starting to look for him in surrounding states as fear builds every day for
the coworkers that he left behind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tony was the person, and now we`re reflecting on it. We were saying, he is just like what everyone was saying about the Parkland
shooter. We all knew he was crazy. It wasn`t a matter if he would, it was like, when. First of all, it was like, oh, my god, that is like horrible.
But I hate to say it, but no one was surprised that he did it, because he literally complained about management every single day. He is still at
large. That is the scariest part.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Joining me now, Lieutenant Ray Spencer from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department. Also, Chris Kudialis, is a reporter for
the "Las Vegas Sun." And Defense Attorney, Sara Azari is with me from Los Angeles as well.
Chris, let me speak with you first. The latest on this crime from all angles of it. From the police who -- from the people who saw it, the
police who were investigating it, and then just generally speaking, that the fear in Las Vegas that he is on the run.
CHRIS KUDIALIS, REPORTER, LAS VEGAS SUN: Well, like you said, Ashleigh, a lot of people in Las Vegas fearful. What is next for this suspect? He was
accused and now police are considering him a suspect. A $50,000 reward just announced by the Las Vegas Sands Corporation for Robel`s discovery and
capture. Accused of going to that picnic on Sunday at a very popular park here in Las Vegas, Sunset Park where hundreds, if not thousands of people
go each day, and especially on weekends. And open firing there on two managers.
Police say that he did -- they did discover his car at McCarran International Airport. No further information on his whereabouts at this
time. Also just announced is that he did have facial hair, which is different from the photos that have been released of him by police.
Obviously, looks like a driver`s license photo and we`ve also seen a photo of Robel in his dealer uniform, where he worked at the Venetian for the
past 15 years.
BANFIELD: And that is what we`re seeing on the screen right now. Chris, don`t go anywhere. I have other questions for you, but I do want to bring
in Lieutenant Ray Spencer, from the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police. Lieutenant, do you have anything more on his whereabouts? Do you feel like
you might be close? It worries me to hear the car was at the airport, because that airport flies everywhere.
SPENCER: You know, that was where we did locate the vehicle. And that is where our search for him as started. We looked everywhere, as far as our
leads. We do not believe he actually went into the main terminal at the airport. We think he actually just left a car there to facilitate his
escape. So we`re actively following up on those leads right now.
BANFIELD: And of course, I would imagine that you would also canvass the videotape from that airport and notice that he wasn`t in the terminal. But
Vegas is filled with video cameras. You can`t walk 20 steps without being caught on video somewhere. That means also a lot of real-time eyeballs
have to look through that videotape. But is it helpful?
SPENCER: It is. You know, at this point, I mean, I have a couple of dozen detectives working basically around the clock right now, putting in nonstop
effort, checking video and following up on all the leads that we have right now. So we are putting extraordinary amount of resources into apprehending
him, anywhere, as far as any leads that come in, we`re following up on those, throughout the night and throughout today.
BANFIELD: And I can understand that leads are important. But so is the trail. And where did the trail take you, if the last thing he left behind
was that car at McCarran airport. There`s also video surveillance of the roadways and of the parking lots at the airport.
[18:10:02] Did that -- did that give you any kind of indication that he may be close by?
SPENCER: You know, we started again when we located the car, but we worked it -- we were working it forward and backwards. We were able to locate his
residence where within a couple of hours, we did have a SWAT Team execute a search warrant at his house, where we were able to determine that from that
search warrant, we were able to determine that it was a planned incident, and that is kind of where we`re focusing our efforts now as far as trying
to locate him and also what led up to this.
BANFIELD: And hold for a second on that search warrant, because one of the neighbors named Dixie Lipper, she was part of that whole operation, I guess
it was pretty terrifying for the neighbors involving what sounded like stunned grenades. I want her to explain for a moment. So, just listen in
if you will, Lieutenant, what Dixie Lipper had to say about that incident at 1:00 -- 1:30 in the morning that woke them all up. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIXIE LIPPER, SUSPECT`S NEIGHBOR: I think about 1:00 or 2:30 in the morning, they started announcing for anybody who was inside to come out.
And they said, come out. And they did that for about 20, 30 minutes, and then a big blast happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So, lieutenant, obviously, big blast. Was it stun grenades? And that is only -- the first part of the question. The second part is,
did you get anything of value when you got into his apartment?
SPENCER: So the bangs that were heard is tactical devices used by the SWAT Team. Those are going to be flash bangs. So that is what she is
describing in that. As far as the search warrant, our biggest thing that we learned from the search warrant is that he had packed up his belongings
and was pretty -- he knew he was not coming back to that apartment after we -- after the incident.
So we`re following up on some additional information that we did determine or we learned from the search warrant. And that is still ongoing. So I
can`t get into that specific, but the process of that warrant was where we were able to determine that it was a targeted act of workplace violence.
BANFIELD: And if he packed his things and had no plan to come back, that sounds pretty methodical, like this was -- this was well planned. But that
doesn`t mean that he doesn`t leave a digital trail behind. So two questions again. Did you find any electronics in the apartment that might
give you clues as to what was he was planning and where he might be headed? And number two, any pings from a cell phone? Because not everybody knows
the cell phone keeps going when you keep moving.
SPENCER: What I`ll tell you is we are looking into any evidence, be it electronic evidence or any kind of physical evidence that was located. The
things that when he left the actual apartment, like, he had cleaned out, I mean, he had taken his clothing and a lot of other personal effects. The
only thing that really remains was like, major stuff like the couch and those type of things. So, again, he knew he wasn`t coming back. And you
are right when you say, I mean, he was methodical in the planning of this attack.
BANFIELD: So, not to press the issue, but did he leave any electronics behind? And have you been able to get anything from any electronics he may
have actually taken?
SPENCER: I don`t want to get that specific, as far as -- because it is an active, ongoing investigation --
BANFIELD: I understand.
SPENCER: -- as far as those leads that are currently ongoing.
BANFIELD: So to that planned, methodical part, there was a press conference just moments ago that wrapped up in your vicinity. And I think
one of the things that was interesting was that he approached the picnic and began to -- at the end, as they were wrapping up the end of the picnic
and began to ask some of those fellow employees, "Where are the executives sitting?" Can you expand on that?
SPENCER: So, when he arrived, basically he had parked his car and walked towards the gazebo area where the main picnic was at Sunset Part. And he
encountered one of the other employees and asked him where the executives were. That employee had pointed towards the gazebo. And then he walked up
to the gazebo, and that is where once he got up there, he immediately started firing on the victims.
BANFIELD: Have you been able to locate any family members of his? Are they helpful, if there are any?
SPENCER: We have. We have located family members and they have been cooperative with investigators and those interviews took place quickly
after the incident and they`re still ongoing, as far as the family. So, they have been very cooperative with us.
BANFIELD: And also, one of the other coworkers said that the executives, she believes that they had made some policy changes that had results in a
decrease in salary for a lot of the dealers. I think one of those anonymous coworkers said $30,000, you know, it cost them in their salaries.
Do you think that is a motive for what happened?
SPENCER: What I do know, from what we`ve learned, he was extremely disgruntled towards his supervisors at the hotel. So as far as, you know,
what led up to it? That is kind of what we are believing was the motive at this point, was his anger towards management at the hotel.
[18:15:13] BANFIELD: Well, we will keep on this story, Lieutenant. I really appreciate your time. Also appreciate Chris Kudialis with his
reporting. If anybody in that area knows anything about the whereabouts of Anthony Robel, call the police, because he is considered armed and
dangerous. And there are -- there`s one dead woman and one seriously injured man in the wake of what is alleged to be a pretty violent and
murderous act. And again, he is on the run tonight. My thanks to my guests.
Tonight, a magician never reveals his secrets. At least, he wouldn`t do it willingly. But Las Vegas` most famous magic man, David Copperfield, is
being ordered to do exactly that after one of his illusions allegedly goes dangerously wrong.
[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: Plenty of people are willing to talk about the inner workings of their jobs. Magicians are not. They typically do not reveal how their
tricks, their illusions or anything else they do happens. But tonight, one of the most respected magicians in the world is being forced to do it,
being forced to share his secrets. Publicly.
A Las Vegas tourist is taking David Copperfield to court, claiming that he was injured while participating in Copperfield`s disappearing act. It is a
staple of the grand finale and it is called "The Lucky Thirteen."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID COPPERFIELD, MAGICIAN: We`re good! Take them up into the air! Witnesses, make sure you can see all the way around the sides and behind.
Go, go, go, go! Hello, guys! Hello guys. Hi. Hello!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: 58-year-old Gavin Cox, was randomly selected for the Lucky Thirteen illusion. But now he is not feeling quite so lucky, because he
said he suffered a brain injury and injuries to his head and shoulders when he was rushed through the belly of the MGM Theater to make all the magic
happen.
And now he is suing David Copperfield and he is suing the MGM Grand for negligence, not to mention making him spill the secrets so that a jury can
determine whether this disappearing act was just a disaster waiting to happen instead. Imagine being on that jury.
Joining me now, Jesse Weber, host of Law and Crime Network, also Patrick Davis, a featured performer at Monday Night Magic. And also, defense
attorney Sara Azari is still with me.
All right. First to you, Jesse Weber. A little bit about the story. I`m sort of confused -- well, I`ve always known, well, I`ve always imagined and
I am sorry Patrick that people aren`t really disappearing, but I didn`t really know that there was a very hurried and rushed approach. Physically,
what happened to Gavin Cox after he was called up on stage?
JESSE WEBER, HOST, LAW AND CRIME NETWORKS: Well, it is really unfortunate, but, yes, I thought people disappear to, but here is what actually
happened. So during this disappearing act, he is on a platform, they put a sheet over all the audience members, and then a really quickly, --
BANFIELD: The Thirteen up on stage.
WEBER: -- the thirteen up on stage, in about a minute, maybe minute 20, they are rushed outside through a secret passageway. Now, obviously, in
order to make the trick work, it`s got to be dark, they have to be rushed really quickly in order to reappear or in order to disappear. And he fell.
He fell. Now he is blaming the fact on there was a negligence the way they held the premises. He said he slipped while, the defense attorneys are
saying, he trip tripped. It was his fault or was just a complete accident.
BANFIELD: He said it was cement dust and debris that was along that corridors, that sort of labyrinth in set of corridors that they had to take
as they were rushing all these thirteen audience members, right?
WEBER: Right. If you look at the complaint, and listen to opening statement, they said it was a congregation of a lot of different factors.
Bad lighting, there was construction debris. They were being hurried away in a straight line. And then today, we heard the producer of the show.
And you can see how uncomfortable he was, being on the stand, trying to reveal these secrets, but try and understand, did you know about the
dangers of this? How come you never had pregnant women as one of the audience members?
BANFIELD: Pregnant women aren`t allowed to go on rides either. It`s not because the ride is going to fall, it`s because they`re pregnant and it
might be a conditioned, you know, -- being rushed and hurried might -- but let me ask you this. Because I thought this was very interesting.
When those -- the 13 people are randomly chosen from the audience by a series of bouncing ball. If the bouncing ball lands, you get it, you`re
the one who gets to go up on stage. And you know that prior. You`re told by David Copperfield that, you know what, let me tell you -- this is how
David Copperfield explains it actually from the stage to the folks who may be one of the lucky thirteen. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[18:25:06] COPPERFIELD: So, get a ball, come on down and give yourselves a big round of applause. Walk that way. Walk that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: OK, I don`t think you got the directions I was looking for there. But if we could, pop up the -- I`m going to ask the control room to
pop up the sound bite that says directions. Because he explains to the audience what`s going to happen. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COPPERFIELD: Those thirteen randomly selected men and women, oh, man (inaudible) -- so first things first, I need everybody to please stand up.
I cannot begin unless each and every human being is standing up. Please stand up right now. Please stand up. Even if you don`t speak English,
please stand up. It`s important that you`re 18 years or over and in good health and you must speak English to catch a ball.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Ah, so you`re given the admonition that you have to be 18, in good health, and then when you get up on stage, it goes further. The
producer says that all of those 13 participants are asked, are you pregnant? Are you an attorney? I think that is supposed to be a joke.
And they check their footwear. So they do take some steps to make sure, you know, everyone is going to be OK. By the way, how many people have
done this? Like how many participants over the years --
WEBER: I`m so glad you said that. 15 years and over 100,000 people. This is the first person that got injured, which really goes pretty strong to
the defense`s case. But then again, someone got injured. So it could be the first person, and I`m thankful it`s the first person, it`s the only
person, but really the question becomes, did they maintain those premises in the correct way? And they took the precautions based upon what you
heard to try to make sure no one got hurt. But having said that, you have a man who`s rushed through this. Now, the question became, was the ground
level? Now, we heard from the defense attorney saying there was one degree of down climb. Now, again, does that make it in a way you`re being rushed
it creates a dangerous situation?
BANFIELD: 100,000 people are OK with it?
WEBER: Everybody is OK, except for Mr. Cox.
BANFIELD: 100,000 people ran through this. Hold on, Sara, as an attorney, I`ve always thought, look, if someone falls on your property, are you
automatically libel, if they trip themselves and it`s really not that big a deal. Maybe some cement dust. Is that enough?
SARA AZARI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, here you have MGM. They have a duty to maintain a safe premises. And, you know, like we heard, it doesn`t
matter if this guy is the only one or the first one. I think it boils down to whether the conditions, the debris, the darkness, the chaos --
BANFIELD: Were messy enough.
AZARI: Were messy enough to cause this fall. And it really, you know the MGM lawyers were saying, this was not a slip and fall, it was a trip and
fall. And to me, it`s the same difference. Because it`s about causation.
BANFIELD: the issue, yes.
AZARI: Were the conditions, the proximate cause of the fall? And you know, it`s a clear case in terms of damages. His medical expenses alone
are just under $500,000.
BANFIELD: OK.
AZARI: It`s really about liability.
BANFIELD: So that is all the legal interesting part, but what really grabbed me about this story was the David Copperfield part. And that is
why, Patrick, I wanted you to come on the set. Because as a magician. Can I call you a magician?
PATRICK DAVIS, FEATURED PERFORMER, MONDAY NIGHT MAGIC: Yes. Absolutely.
BANFIELD: Illusionist or magician?
DAVIS: Magician is fine.
BANFIELD: Magician, it is absolutely sacrosanct that you keep these tricks secret.
DAVIS: Absolutely.
BANFIELD: And so for David Copperfield to be told in court, spill the beans, is actually, these are trade secrets. It`s like saying to
McDonald`s, give me your special sauce, isn`t it?
DAVIS: Yes, you know, it`s unfortunate when we have to reveal a secret. You know, we definitely -- we spend a lot of time perfecting these tricks
and working on these illusions. And a lot of times also keeping the secret and making sure no one finds out.
That said, David Copperfield is a consummate professional. You know, while this is, I`m sure, disappointing, you know, I like to think of magic as
almost like cooking. You know, if you have the same secret recipe, give it to a first-time chef, give it to Anthony Bourdain, they`ll come up with
different products. You know, it`s not necessarily just the secret, it`s about what you`re doing with it, how you`re performing with it. And I
think that is where David Copperfield absolutely shines.
BANFIELD: By the way, does it matter that he is being asked to give up this secret. Because every night, he gives up the secret to 13 people,
right?
DAVIS: That is a great point. That means there are thousands of people --
BANFIELD: Well, a hundred thousand people, right?
DAVIS: That is exactly right. A hundred thousand people have gone through. While it`s not ideal to have it a matter of public record, first
of all, I would ask how many people are going to go through the court records to see how this one effect is done.
BANFIELD: Yes.
DAVIS: Well, it is might as well seek out, interview the people after the show.
BANFIELD: Well, I saw it`s on TV tonight.
DAVIS: Right, exactly.
BANFIELD: Speaking of being on TV tonight, as we were planning this sort of legal discussion and you know, I really kind of thought, do the magic.
Can you do something for me, because this is --
DAVIS: Yes, absolutely.
BANFIELD: There`s no drop floor here. There`s nothing -- I`m not prepared for you to come on here and do something. But I kind of want to know about
the magic, because I don`t believe people disappear.
WEBER: Don`t saw me in half. I am OK over here.
DAVIS: No, no, no. Of course not. We`ll just do a little light mind reading. Ashleigh, during our commercial break, I was kind of getting to
know your mind a little bit, how it works and stuff, and I`ve had you think of a word.
BANFIELD: Yes.
DAVIS: And you didn`t tell me what this word was did you? You didn`t write it down anywhere or anything like that?
BANFIELD: No, but I can. I have --
DAVIS: I did tell you my only thing where I told you could absolutely anything, something simple like cat or dog or someone like a celebrity or a
famous person. You said you don`t tell anyone and that you don`t let anyone see it.
What I would like to have you to do right now is I`m going to turn my head right over here so I can`t see. I would like you to write down whatever it
is that you thought of, all right?
BANFIELD: Was it the word that I thought of, or is it the website that I found it on?
DAVIS: Whatever it is you looked up, yes. Absolutely.
BANFIELD: OK. Well, that one -- we discussed that one.
DAVIS: We discussed whatever you --
BANFIELD: The word. So you want me to do the website?
DAVIS: Yes, yes, absolutely.
BANFIELD: OK. So look away.
DAVIS: Absolutely.
BANFIELD: God, I hope I can do this fast. OK, which camera? Tell me real quickly. Camera three? OK, can you see? Can you see it?
JESSE WEBER, HOST, LAW AND CRIME NETWORKS: I cannot.
BANFIELD: You can`t see it. There`s no monitors on, so he can`t see anything. But can the audience see it? OK, go ahead.
DAVIS: Can I turn around now?
BANFIELD: Yes, you can turn around. We`re good. I put it.
DAVIS: Fantastic. I want you to look me in the eye right now.
BANFIELD: OK.
DAVIS: During the commercial break, I got to know your mind a little bit. I found out your -- you know, the letters I was having trouble with but
when you thought of the word, the definition, the meaning of it, whatever it is, I was able to be a little bit better. So I want you to think of it
now, imagine this, whatever it is you`re thinking in your mind.
BANFIELD: The word within the text or the website?
DAVIS: No, no, no, the website, yes.
BANFIELD: OK, got it.
DAVIS: So think about that right now. If you can get an image in your mind. I`m thinking this is a person.
BANFIELD: Yes!
DAVIS: This is a person you know a lot about.
BANFIELD: Yes.
DAVIS: Yes, a person you know a lot. A person everyone might know a lot about?
BANFIELD: Yes.
DAVIS: Is this the president of the United States?
BANFIELD: Oh, my God!
(LAUGHTER)
BANFIELD: Seriously?
DAVIS: Well, that`s it.
WEBER: I`m quitting my job.
(LAUGHTER)
WEBER: (INAUDIBLE) magician.
BANFIELD: I can`t speak. You didn`t see it?
WEBER: I did not. No, that was --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, there it is right there.
WEBER: Oh, my God!
BANFIELD: This is creepy! That`s awesome. That is so -- now I believe in magic. Now I believe those 13 people could disappear. You need to come back
again.
(LAUGHTER)
BANFIELD: I know this is about crime and justice, but could we do a whole show about magic?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would absolutely love that.
BANFIELD: Tell me we can do that. Thank you. I`ve gone completely over time on this segment. Jesse, thank you. Sara, thank you. And my God,
Patrick. You`re the next David Copperfield.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, let`s not get ahead of ourselves.
BANFIELD: That was amazing. Don`t go anywhere. I`m kind of speechless, but I`ve got to go on. Used to be talking to yourself was a good way to think
through a problem, right? But in the age of cellphones and countless portable recording devices, there may be no safe place to clear your head.
Just ask this guy.
Yes, he`s accused of gunning down a young dad on his front porch and the prosecutors say they have the audiotape of him muttering away saying, he
murdered the son of a bitch. And that`s not good.
[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: When you`re accused of a crime, you got to be mindful of every little thing you say. And every single person that you talk to. Like, for
instance, take Robert Durst, accused of killing his wife, his best friend, and his neighbor. He probably should never have said the following when he
was still miked up in a bathroom after an interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): What the hell did I do? Killed them all, of course.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Killed them all, of course. That of course was New York real estate tycoon Durst in the bombshell HBO interview that could now be used
against him in a murder trial, if it happens.
But in Kansas City, Missouri, a different older gentleman infamously known in his own community is in a lot of hot water for something that he said on
a microphone. David Jungerman is accused of gunning down a local lawyer.
That lawyer was on his own front porch, just having come home from walking his kids to school. And all because that lawyer represented a homeless guy
that the elderly Mr. Jungerman shot while that homeless man was on Mr. Jungerman`s property. And that lawyer was able to secure almost $6 million
in a civil suit against that older Mr. Jungerman.
Do you follow me? Well, the witnesses in that lawyer Thomas Pickert`s neighborhood, said that they saw that older man in a white van that day, an
older man waiting outside of that lawyer`s house. But a witness who came forward last month told police something even more specific. Like, deadly
specific. That Jungerman actually told him he did it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN PETERS BAKER, PROSECUTOR: Jungerman stated that he had killed a lawyer with a gun and had gotten away with it. He did it because the lawyer
stole his money. My office filed a first-degree murder charge against David G. Jungerman for the fatal shooting that occurred on October the 25th,
2017, of attorney Tom Pickert.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:40:03] BANFIELD: To top it off, prosecutors say the elderly Mr. Jungerman talks about killing the attorney in a recording that was found in
his own house, saying, quote, people know that I murdered that son of a bitch. Nobody can figure out what`s going on, you know? The mother
(INAUDIBLE) gone.
Then he continues, the thing that sort of bothers me is when I think about it, I grin. That mother (INAUDIBLE) has caused me a lot of problems.
It is language apparently that does not exactly surprise his own neighbors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If he`s going to be that violent, then he needs to be back in jail, permanently.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At times, he can be a real nice guy. And other times, just a problem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): So what do you make of these charges, then?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it`s about time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Joining me now, Ian Cummings is a reporter with the Kansas City Star. Also, David Jungerman`s attorney, Daniel Ross, is with me. And
Defense Attorney Sara Azari has stayed on with me from L.A. as well.
All right. So, Ian Cummings, put this all together for me and explain to me the essence of the case, that smoking gun being part of it, the recording.
How does it all sort of play out in real time? What happened here?
IAN CUMMINGS, REPORTER, KANSAS CITY STAR (via telephone): Well, the shooting was on October 25, and there weren`t any arrests or charges for
months. So until just earlier this month. And police had even said in November that Jungerman was not a suspect.
So it seems like a lot of this evidence that has come out to support the murder charge, that evidence was unearthed after Jungerman was arrested on
March 8th in a separate incident. And that`s when the recording is uncovered and some of these other items from the murder charge.
BANFIELD: So, there`s interviews that Mr. Jungerman did, as well. Interviews with your paper. And I want to play an audio recording, if I
can, from Kansas City Star, where he talks about the van, the big white van that some of those witnesses said they saw, and how he talks about where
that van had been somewhere else. So have a listen to this audio recording of the Kansas City Star interviewing David Jungerman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID JUNGERMAN, CHARGED WITH MURDER (voice over): People have me guilty because they indicate that I -- it was my van that was there. So people
that I`ve known for years turned their back when I walk by.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Would you be able to say, you know, where the van was that morning?
JUNGERMAN (voice over): Sure, it was across the lake.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): It was there the whole morning?
JUNGERMAN (voice over): Oh yes, it has been there for -- Sandra, what would you say? Had it been there three or four days?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So, Ian, something significant about that interview. The clothing that Mr. Jungerman was wearing in the photograph was clothing that
a witness said they saw as they were walking their dog.
They saw an older man at a white van wearing tan and khaki pants and a tan -- a little bit darker tan jacket. The same clothing that he was wearing in
your interview. And apparently the same clothing they found when they searched his apartment.
CUMMINGS (via telephone): That`s correct. The description of the clothing sounds very similar to what he was wearing in the photos and a similar
clothing description was given for some surveillance video that police said that they put together from the morning of the shooting. Yes, the
description of the clothing all sounds very similar.
BANFIELD: There was also a bullet that was found in the van, what`s the significance of the bullet?
CUMMINGS (via telephone): The police have said that the attorney, Tom Pickert, was killed by a 17-caliber bullet, which is sort of unusual for a
homicide case. And then months later after the killing when Mr. Jungerman is arrested in a separate incident on March 8th, police searched a vehicle
that belonged to Jungerman and found a 17-caliber bullet. So they`re drawing the connection that it`s the same type of bullet.
BANFIELD: Wow! And all of this -- the shooting happened -- just correct me if I`m wrong, Ian, because I`m trying to piece it all together at the same
time as I`m interviewing you, but the shooting happened the day after the civil verdict came down.
The day after Thomas Pickert representing the homeless man --it`s a little confusing, but the homeless man had been on Jungerman`s property and
stealing copper (ph) and Jungerman shot him and the homeless man sued him because he got shot.
And this lawyer was representing the homeless guy, and he secured this multi-million dollar, $5.75 million judgment against the older Mr.
Jungerman. And the shooting happened, was it the next day?
[18:45:02] CUMMINGS (via telephone): Actually, the verdict came in over the summer. But the day before the shooting, Mr. Jungerman had been served
with some papers as part of a process, beginning to seize his property to pay that judgment.
BANFIELD: OK. So that`s the timing that`s so specific. It wasn`t the verdict, it was the, you know, being served some of these papers and the
heat was starting to really come down. I have so many other questions about that, especially the recording and what else was said, when David Jungerman
was by himself in the interrogation room.
So, Ian, I`m going to ask you to stick around, if you can. Daniel Ross is coming up, and Daniel Ross again is the attorney for David Jungerman. I`m
going to ask him a lot of questions about that, next.
[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: With me now is Daniel Ross. He is the attorney for David Jungerman. David Jungerman, 80 years old, is facing murder. Alleged to have
killed the attorney who won a huge judgment against him, $5.75 million judgment.
So, Daniel Ross, this so curious to see that there`s an audio recording of your client, 80-year-old David Jungerman, saying the following. I don`t
have the recording but I have the transcript.
People know that I murdered that son of a bitch. Nobody can figure out what`s going on, you know? The mother (INAUDIBLE) gone. The thing that sort
of bothers me about me is when I think about it, I grin. That mother (INAUDIBLE) has caused me a lot of problems, you know?
And then when he was brought in, Mr. Ross, to the interrogation room, a detective --
DANIEL ROSS, ATTORNEY FOR DAVID JUNGERMAN (via telephone): Hold on, Ashleigh --
BANFIELD: No, no, I just want to give you all the information. I`m going to get you to respond.
ROSS (via telephone): Compound question there, Ashleigh.
BANFIELD: And you`ll get a compound answer. He walked out of the -- the detective walked out of the interrogation room. And the recordings
continued. And when he thought he was by himself, he said, keep your (INAUDIBLE) mouth shut, keep your mouth shut.
So, my question is, these things are on record. They are recordings from your client. And they are what you call bad facts in a murder case. How do
you get past them?
ROSS (via telephone): Well, for one thing, you are incorrect with all due respect, Ashleigh. They are not things of record, they are descriptions
from simply a probable cause statement filed by the state of Missouri, the Kansas City, Missouri.
You`ve described a number of things, an alleged confession by my client, which you just, quote, paraphrased, witnesses to seeing his van, witnesses
to similarity in clothing, recovery -- there is no evidence of any of that. And I believe you`re aware of that.
The only thing you`ve got are descriptions of that kind of information appearing in what`s called a probable cause statement, which under Missouri
law and under I believe the law of all states, that`s not evidence.
We`ll wait for the day that people can actually come in. The police notoriously have their spin on information in order to get people charged
and our view, our client vehemently denies those allegations.
BANFIELD: I`m so fascinated. I`m so glad you said that. I am so glad you said that. I am fascinated because typically when I read from an affidavit
and then we get to trial, that stuff does come up, especially when they say there`s tape. Are you saying this stuff is not on tape?
ROSS (via telephone): I am saying that we don`t have any proof or as you put it earlier in your comments, that there is evidence that it`s on
record. It`s not of anything. We have a probable cause statement, which is claiming the stuff exists.
BANFIELD: And you`re saying it doesn`t?
ROSS (via telephone): No, it doesn`t exist.
BANFIELD: OK, good. I can`t wait for this -- this will be fascinating.
ROSS (via telephone): I don`t know until we get discovery. I do not know. I know right now to call it evidence is incorrect.
BANFIELD: They didn`t call it evidence. I said the police say they got these recordings. Right. And that`s what I said. The police have these
recordings and I will be fascinated. Will you come back on the show?
ROSS (via telephone): Do they?
BANFIELD: Yes, they said it in their affidavit.
ROSS (via telephone): Oh, an affidavit?
BANFIELD: We read it. We have it. Right here. Right here.
ROSS (via telephone): Every time -- Ashleigh, tell me when I can talk. Every time we get an acquittal or not guilty in a court of law, which is
frequent, that is supported by an affidavit that says my client was guilty and did the following things. Well, guess what, everybody time we get a not
guilty, that means the affidavit was not accurate. Correct?
BANFIELD: Well, will you come back when we can continue this conversation? Because I`ve heard that you`ve said your client is not going to plead
guilty, which means we will go to trial, unless they drop all these charges, which seems unlikely.
ROSS (via telephone): I`m sorry to cut you off. We are absolutely going to trial.
BANFIELD: OK, great. Will you come back and be our -- I got 10 seconds before going to black. Unfortunately television is not infinite. Will you
come back and talk to me about this? Because if it doesn`t exist, I think you have the right to come back and say so.
ROSS (via telephone): Absolutely. We will be there. We will be there.
BANFIELD: OK. Daniel Ross, thank you for that. My thanks also to Ian Cummings. We`re back right after this.
[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Tonight, police across the country are on the hunt for a suspected killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: U.S. Marshals are actively involved in a national search for this dangerous fugitive.
[19:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): A grandma from a small Minnesota town.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): She used to do day care in this town. A lot of people in this town knew her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): She is accused of killing her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): She got to pay for what she did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Before laughing and drinking with her look-alike, who police say became her next victim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This mode of operation is to defriend women who resembled and steal their identity.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she also steal from her family before she pled and stopping at casinos along the way? And where could this granny be now?
They say a magician never shares his secrets but one of the best magicians in the world is sharing his because he has to in a court of law. One of
David Copperfield`s audience members claims he was seriously hurt during a disappearing act.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These 13 randomly selected men and women will vanish from the face of the earth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, it is up to David Copperfield to make his legal problems disappear.
A lawyer is shot dead on his own front porch after walking his kids to school.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five shell casings and three hits.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s pretty good from the hip, isn`t it in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But did the suspect admit to the crime?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jungerman stated that he had killed a lawyer with a gun and had gotten away with it. He did it because the lawyer stole his
money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did he think his status as a millionaire was going to help him get off Scott free?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: Good evening. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to the second hour of CRIME AND JUSTICE.
Small towns in Minnesota and beach towns in Florida are not the first place as you think of when you picture a killer on the run. A 56-year-old
gambling grandma is not the first person you picture when you hear U.S. marshals say a killer is on the loose. And tonight, they say she could be
anywhere and she could be ready to kill again because they believe she may have already gotten away with killing two people, her own husband a few
weeks ago at home in Minnesota and a woman she may have purposely befriended in Florida because they just looked so much alike.
Lois Reese was caught on camera chatting up her doppelganger at the local brewery before police say she shot her dead and drove off with her car and
all of her I.D. She seemingly been caught on camera again at a hotel in a different part of Florida but she is yet to be caught and she is yet to be
handcuffed. And while police say she may just be headed south, they are pulling out all the stops to try to stop her before she leaves the country.
A casino crazed woman, they started to call losing streak Lois with apparent history of stealing from family and a $6,000 reward targeted on
her back. Her neighbors from that small Minnesota town say they are struggling to think of her as armed and dangerous as cops say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She used to do daycare in this town. A lot of people here know her. We thought she was a good person and then this happens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: with me, Tim Harlow, reporter from "Star Tribune," also John Kinsey, deputy U.S. marshals for the Fort Myers division. Defense attorney
Sarah Azari is also with me.
If I can begin with you, John Kinsey, as a deputy Marshall, I`m sure you`re extraordinarily busy. Have you any more information now at 7:03 eastern
time tonight as to her whereabouts?
JOHN KINSEY, DEPUTY U.S. MARSHAL, FORT MYERS DIVISION (on the phone): First of all, thanks you, Ms. Ashleigh, for having me on your show. At
this time, we have no leads other than she was -- the vehicle was last seen right outside of Corpus Christi, Texas, just north of there on highway 77.
Other than that, we don`t really have any more information as to her whereabouts.
BANFIELD: That`s very distressing to think that, you know, at least a 24- hour period has gone by since as least we knew about that white vehicle being found in Corpus Christi. Is she not pinging? Is she not using the
credit card of this victim, Pamela Hutchins, that might lead you on a trail where she could be?
KINSEY: Not currently, ma`am. No, she is not.
BANFIELD: So that would lead to you believe that she now is credit card- less and would have to survive on whatever she took from Minnesota, which I think was around $11,000. That can last you a while. Is that your
concern?
KINSEY: Yes, actually it is. It is our concern. We used a lot of investigative techniques. And you know, the cash isn`t one of them. So
hopefully one of the tips that we get in is going to pan out and we will be able to take her into custody.
[19:05:02] BANFIELD: So the video that we are looking at right now came from Lee County sheriff`s office, of her walking into Hilton hotel with a
blue shirt, Capri pants, flip flops and a white hat. And you can see that blond hair tied in a ponytail in the back. Were these hotel workers able
to help you at all in determining where she might have said she was headed or coming from or any other information she may have left behind from that
hotel?
KINSEY: No, ma`am. Not at this point. The investigation hasn`t revealed any conversations that she has had with the hotel staff there.
BANFIELD: And that Hilton hotel, do you have a timeline on it, when she was there and when she may have checked out and left?
KINSEY: Not right now.
BANFIELD: Do we know if she checked in?
KINSEY: Yes, absolutely. She checked in.
BANFIELD: How long was she there?
KINSEY: At least overnight as far as we can tell right now.
BANFIELD: And in is Ocala, right? Ocala, Florida?
KINSEY: Yes, ma`am.
BANFIELD: Is it sort on a neat and tidy route from Fort Myers beach if you`re going to around the horn and drive to Texas and go to Corpus
Christi, would you pass through Ocala? So does this look like she is, you know, driving for hours and taking shelter and then driving again?
KINSLEY: Ocala would be right of interstate 75 as you head north out of Fort Myers.
BANFIELD: So again, I mean, I`m not sure -- was she there just overnight? Did she say long?
KINSEY: Yes. She was just there overnight.
BANFIELD: Just overnight. So this was a stopover on the way. Again, around the horn, and if you look at heading to Corpus Christi, she were
going to make that drive from Fort Myers beach.
So just quickly, I want to show some other video we are just getting. And you will have to bare with me, deputy because I`m trying to sort of make
head to tail of it, but this is new video, apparently surveillance video that was taken at the scene of the condo where Pamela Hutchinson`s body was
discovered. And again, we see this blue shirt, we see that blonde hair tied behind her head in a ponytail, we don`t see that white hot, we don`t
see the Capri pants. But that white car that she is driving off in, that Acura was stolen from the victim, correct?
KINSEY: Yes, ma`am. That`s correct.
BANFIELD: She also got what seems to be sort of a shopping bag or white bag of some kind. It is hard to make out? Do you know anything about that
bag? Was it stolen from the victim as well? Do you know what might be in it?
KINSLEY: That I don`t know. I`m privy to a lot but the --.
BANFIELD: I`m losing you a little bit. Can you over that again? You said you are not privy to a lot but --
KINSEY: I`m sorry, phone trouble. I`m not privy to a lot of the details of the murder investigation. The marshals kind of stay in their lane about
trying to locate the fugitive.
BANFIELD: Understand. It makes sense.
So you don`t know anything about the bag in her hand. It`s hard from this angle to see if it looks like sort of a carpet bagger bag or maybe just a
plastic shopping bag. But there`s an image we have as well that I want to put up. And it is a side-by-side image of her wearing a blue shirt when
she is speaking to Pamela Hutchinson at a bar. And it is also of her in blue shirt carrying a white bag with her hair tied behind her bag.
So the image on the left, again there`s that white bag and that blue shirt, hair tied up. And the image on the right she`s got that blue shirt, could
be the same one, could be a lighter hue, could be just the lighting, this is where she apparently was befriending at the smoke and oyster brewery,
Pamela Hutchinson.
Do you know if these two photographs were taken on the same day? Meaning, might she have befriended Pamela and then be seen the same day wearing that
same shirt carrying that bag at the condo because it only about 500 feet away?
KINSEY: Yes. That could possibly be the case. We don`t know exactly -- it was on or about April 5th that she may have committed the murder. So
that very well could be the same shirt.
BANFIELD: And April 5th on or about is the murder. What`s the date that she`s sitting in that bar, the smoke and oyster brewery talking to Pamela
Hutchinson and flipping her hair around?
KINSEY: I have reviewed that type just once and I`m not sure of the date (INAUDIBLE).
BANFIELD: So I guess - the reason I asked these questions, there is a method to her madness. I`m curious of the modus operandi here as police
have said may played out again. Meaning, she may meet someone else who looks like her. Does it happen that she meets that person at a bar, lots
of boos involve, and then immediately goes to a location and then allegedly commits the murder. Meaning, if people are out there watching, you have
got no time if you come into contact with this woman.
I`m trying to put a timeline together of when she met poor Pamela Hutchinson in that bar and when Pamela Hutchinson may have been murdered on
the 5th, if there is proximity to it and if the method to her madness plays out quickly.
[19:10:23] KINSEY: Yes. That would certainly be a major concern of ours. And luckily, we have got her picture out there. And news shows like yours
are doing a great job of getting the message out. The marshal service is planning on putting up bill boards in five states and just trying to get
her picture out there. So hopefully we can get someone to identify her, call their local authorities or the marshal service so we can her into
custody.
BANFIELD: So Deputy Kinsey, you know, clearly, she has been deemed by the police losing streak Lois. She has a penchant for gambling. There are
allegations she has run up debts, that she has stolen from not only the dead husband but perhaps her sister, I`m going to get into that in a moment
from Tim Harlow from the "Star Tribune," but are you also canvassing all of the casinos in this, I guess two-state area, because they all have so much
video surveillance.
KINSEY: Yes, ma`am. We are working with each casino in reaching out to them and getting -- trying to get surveillance video footage to see if she
was there. That`s a task within itself for sure.
BANFIELD: And then do you know if she had a penchant for a particular kind of gambling like craps or slots or black jack or roulette or poker? I
mean, you can sort of narrow it down. A lot of people who gamble regularly have a favorite kind of gambling, favorite game.
KINSEY: To my understanding, her favorite were the slots machines.
BANFIELD: So then are you focusing on slot machines and gambling venues along that route, sort of along the Gulf of Mexico, all the way from Fort
Myers beach and around the horn down to Corpus Christi?
KINSEY: Sure. We are focusing on anything we can catch in a net.
BANFIELD: But nothing so far, right?
KINSEY: Pardon?
BANFIELD: Nothing so far. Nothing has popped up on all those gambling, casino surveillance systems?
KINSEY: No, ma`am. Nothing so far.
BANFIELD: Man, she is elusive and such a mystery. Deputy, hold on for a moment, if you will.
Tim Harlow, jump in if you can. I have been reading veraciously your reporting on the backdraft of Lois Anne Reese before all of this. Her
neighbors said she had a day care. She might have had a traffic ticket, but you have been unearthing a lot of stuff that might be crimes against
her own sister. Can you flesh that out a little?
TIM HARLOW, REPORT, STAR TRIBUNE (on the phone): Yes. We kind of wanted to find out who she was and so we ran her name through some court web sites
and found a document that back in 2012 she was named as a guardian for her older sister, who is disabled and really has the mindset of a 10-year-old.
And over the course of three to four years, there were a lot of undocumented checks written, some to herself. So then two years ago there
was a motion to have her removed as guardian and that finally got approved I think it was 2016 if I remember right. And she didn`t protest that. But
then there was the request for a court to step in and ask her to repay this money. And we found records of $78,000 but we think it`s a lot more than
that.
BANFIELD: I`m just looking at some of the surveillance video and just noting the pocket purse that she has sort of draped over her left side.
She has been seen in a lot of images with that.
Also, noting she doesn`t have that white bag in these images, but she did have the white bag in other images. It just such app elusive story.
My thanks to Tim Harlow and Deputy John Kinsey and my thanks to Sarah Azari as well. I`m going to ask her to stay on.
A magician never reveals his secret, at least not willingly. But Las Vegas famous magic man David Copperfield is being ordered to do that after one of
his illusions allegedly went dangerously wrong. So why is he have to say what his tricks are about? And will that make any difference to his show?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:19:44] BANFIELD: Plenty of people are willing to talk about the inner workings of their jobs. Magicians are not. They typically do not reveal
how their tricks, their illusions or anything else they do happen. But tonight, one of the most respected magicians in the world is being forced
to do it, being forced to share his secrets publicly.
A Las Vegas tourist is taking David Copperfield to court claiming that he was injured while participating in Copperfield`s disappearing act. It is a
staple of the grand finale and it is called the lucky 13.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:20:34] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take them up into the air. Witnesses, make sure can you see all the way around the sides and behind.
Hello, guys! Hey! Hello.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: 58-year-old Gavin Cox was randomly selected for the lucky 13 illusion. But now he is not feeling quite so lucky because he said he
suffered a brain injury and injuries to his head and shoulder when he was rushed through the belly of the MCM Theater to make all the magic happen.
And now he is suing David Copperfield. And he is suing the MGM grand for negligence, not to mention making him spills secret to that a jury can
determine whether this disappearing act was just a disaster waiting to happen instead. Imagine being on that jury.
Joining me now, Jesse Weber, host of Law and Crime Network also Patrick Davis, featured performer at "Monday Night Magic" and also defense attorney
Sara Azari is still with me.
All right. So first to you, Jesse Weber. A little bit about the story. I`m sort of confused. I mean, I have always known, well, I have always
imagine and I`m sorry, Patrick, that people aren`t really disappearing. But I didn`t really know that there was a very hurried and rushed approach.
Physically, what happened to Gavin Cox after he was called off stage?
JESSE WEBER, HOST, LAW AND CRIME NETWORK: Well, it is really unfortunate. But yes, I thought people disappeared, too. Here is what actually
happened. So during this disappearing act, he is on a platform, they put a sheet over all the audience members, and then in a really --
BANFIELD: The 13 up on stage.
WEBER: The 13 up on stage. In about a minute, maybe 1:20, they are rushed outside through a secret passageway. Now, obviously, in order to make the
trip work, it`s dark there. They have to be rushed really quickly in order to reappear or in order to disappear. And he fell. He fell. Now, he is
blaming the fact on there is a negligent the way they held the premises. He said he slipped while the defense attorneys are saying he tripped. Was
it his fault or just a complete accident?
BANFIELD: But he says it was cement dust and debris that was along that corridor, that sort of (INAUDIBLE) and set of corridors that they had to
take as they were rushing, all these 13 audience members, right?
WEBER: Right. If you look at the complaining, you listen to the opening statement. They said it was a congregation of a lot of different factors,
bad lighting and there was construction debris. They are being hurried away in a straight line. And then today, we heard the producer of the
show, and you could see how uncomfortable he was being on the stand trying to reveal the secrets. But try to understand, did you know about the
dangers of this? How come you never had pregnant women as one of the audience members --?
BANFIELD: Pregnant women were not allow to go on rides either. It is not that the rides are going to fall, it is because they pregnant and it might
be a condition, you know, being brushed --.
But let me ask you this because I thought this was very interesting. When those type of - the 13 people are randomly chosen from the audience by a
series of bouncing balls, the bouncing ball, you get it, you are the one who gets to go up on stage and you know that prior. You are told by David
Copperfield that, you know what, this is how David Copperfield explains it actually from the stage to the folks who may be one of the lucky 13. Have
a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID COPPERFIELD, MAGICIAN: (INAUDIBLE). Come on down and give yourself a big round of applause. Walk that way. Walk that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: OK. Still I don`t think you got the directions I was looking for there, but if we could, (INAUDIBLE), I`m going to ask the control room
to pop up the sound bite that says directions because he explains to the audience what`s going to happen. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COPPERFIELD: There`s 13 randomly selected men and women will vanish from the face of the earth. First things first, everybody please stand up.
Everyone stand up. So please stand up right now. Please stand up. It`s important that you`re 18 years are over and in good health and you must
speak English to get the ball.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:25:00] BANFIELD: So you were given the admonition that you have to be 18, in good health and then when you get up on stage it goes further. The
producer says that all those 13 participants are asked, are you pregnant, are you an attorney, I think that is supposed to be a joke, and they check
their footwear.
WEBER: Right.
BANFIELD: So they do take some steps to make sure, you know, everyone is going to be OK. And by the way, how many people have done this? Like how
many participants over the years that have done this?
WEBER: We are so glad you said that. Fifteen years and over 100,000 people, this is the first person that got injured which really goes pretty
strong to the defense`s case. But then again, someone got injured. So it could be the first person and I`m thankful it`s the first person, it`s the
only person. But there really, the question becomes did they maintain those premises in the correct way and they took the precautions based upon
what you heard to try to make sure no one got hurt.
But having said that, you have a man who is rushed through this. Now, the question became was the ground level? Now, we heard from the defense
attorney saying there was one degree down climb. Now again, does that make it in a way if you are being rushed it creates a dangerous situation?
BANFIELD: Hundred thousand people were OK with it.
WEBER: Everybody is OK except for Mr. Cox.
BANFIELD: Hundred thousand people ran through this.
Hold on. Sara, as an attorney, I have always thought, look, if someone falls on your property, are you automatically liable if they tripped
themselves and there`s really not that big a deal, maybe some cement dust? Is that enough?
SARA AZARI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look. Here you have MGM. They have a duty to maintain a safe premises. And, you know, like we heard, it doesn`t
matter if this guy is the only one or the first one. I think it boils down to whether the conditions, the debris, the darkness, the chaos were messy
enough to cause this fall.
And it really, you know, the MGM lawyers were saying this was not a slip and fall, it was a trip and fall. And to me it the same difference because
it`s about causation were the conditions the proximate cause of the fall. And you know, it is a clear case in terms of damages. His medical expenses
alone are just under a half a million dollars. It`s really about liability.
BANFIELD: So that`s all the legal interesting part. But what really grabbed me about this story was the David Copperfield part. That`s why,
Patrick, I wanted to come on the set because as a -- can I call you a magician?
PATRICK DAVIS, PERFORMER, MONDAY NIGHT MAGI: Yes, absolutely.
BANFIELD: Illusionist or magician.
DAVIS: No, magician is fine.
BANFIELD: Magician. It`s absolutely sacrosanct that you keep these tricks secret.
DAVIS: Absolutely.
BANFIELD: And so for David Copperfield to be told in court spill the beans, it`s actually like these are trade secrets. It is like saying to
McDonald`s give me your special sauce, isn`t it?
DAVIS: Yes. You know, it unfortunate when we have to reveal a secret. You know, we definitely don`t want to. We spend a lot of time perfecting
these tricks, working on these illusions. And a lot of time on keeping the secret. Making sure no one finds out.
Well that said, David Copperfield is a consummate professional, you know. While this is I`m disappointing, you know, I like to think of magic as
almost like cooking. If you have the same secret recipe, give it to a first-time chef, you give it to Anthony Bourdain, they are going to come up
with different products, you know. It`s not necessarily just the secret, it`s about what you are doing with it or how are you are performing with
it. And I think that`s where David Copperfield absolutely shines.
BANFIELD: By the way, does it matter that he is being ask to give up this secret? Because every night he gives up the secret to 13 people, right?
DAVIS: That`s a great point. I mean, there are thousands of people who have come --.
BANFIELD: Well, 100,000 people, right?
DAVIS: Exactly. So while it`s not ideal to have it a matter of public record, first of all, I would ask how many people are going to go through
the court records to look up how this one effect is done.
BANFIELD: Yes,
DAVIS: Mind as well seek - interview the people --.
BANFIELD: Well, it`s on TV tonight.
DAVIS: Right, exactly.
BANFIELD: You are going to be on TV tonight.
DAVIS: Yes, absolutely.
BANFIELD: As we were planning this sort of legal discussion and you know, I really kind of thought do the magic. Can you do something for me?
Because this is not -- there`s no drop floor here. I`m not prepared for to you come on here and do something, but I kind of want to know about the
magic because I don`t believe people disappear.
WEBER: Don`t saw me in half.
DAVIS: No, no, no. Of course not. We`ll just do a little light mind reading.
Ashleigh, so during our commercial break I was kind getting to know your mind a little bit how it works and stuff and I have had you think of a
word. And you didn`t tell anyone what this word is did you? You didn`t write it down anywhere or anything like that?
BANFIELD: No, but I can.
DAVIS: I can tell - my only thing where I told you to be absolutely anything, something simple like cat or dog or something complex like a
celebrity or famous person. This as you don`t tell anyone and that you didn`t let anyone see it.
What I would like you to have to do right now is I`m going to turn my head right over here so I can`t see. I would like you to write down whatever it
is that you thought, all right?
BANFIELD: Was it the word that I thought of or the web site that I found it on?
DAVIS: Whatever it is that you looked up. Yes, absolutely.
BANFIELD: OK. Well, that one, we discussed that one.
DAVIS: We discussed whatever --.
BANFIELD: You want me to do the web site?
DAVIS: Yes, absolutely.
BANFIELD: OK. So look away.
DAVIS: Absolutely.
BANFIELD: God, I hope I can do this fast.
OK. Which camera? Tell me real quickly. Camera three? OK. Can you see it?
DAVIS: I cannot.
BANFIELD: You can`t see it. There`s no monitors on so he can`t see anything. But can the audience see it? Go ahead.
DAVIS: Can I turn around now?
[19:30:00] BANFIELD: Yes. You turn around. We are good.
DAVIS: Fantastic. Look me in the eye right now. During the commercial break I got to know your mind a little bit. I found out your - you know,
the letters I was having trouble with it but we thought of the word the definition, the meaning of it, whatever it is, I was able to be a little
bit. So I want you to think of that now. Imagine this whatever this is you are thinking up on your mind.
BANFIELD: The word within the text or the website?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no. The (INAUDIBLE). Yes.
BANFIELD: OK, got it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, think about that right now. If you can get an image in your mind. I`m thinking this is a person?
BANFIELD: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a person you know a lot about?
BANFIELD: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, a person you know a lot about. A person that everyone might know a lot about?
BANFIELD: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this the President of the United States?
BANFIELD: Oh, my goodness! Seriously?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, well, that`s (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m quitting my job. I`m going to be a magician.
BANFIELD: I can`t speak. You didn`t see it. You didn`t (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not know. That was a --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, there it is, right there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my God!
BANFIELD: Ah, this is creepy! That`s awesome. That is so -- and now I believe in magic. Now, I believe those 13 people could disappear. You
need to come back again. I want to do a whole show.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: I know this is about crime and justice but can we just do a whole show about magic? Please, please, God, tell me we can do that.
Thank you. I`ve gone completely over time on this segment. Jessie, thank you. Sara, thank you. And my God, Patrick, you`re the next David
Copperfield.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, let`s not get ahead of ourselves.
BANFIELD: Here now, that was amazing. Don`t go anywhere. I`m kind of speechless but I got to go on. Used to be talking to yourself was a good
way to think through a problem, right? But in the age of cell phones and countless portable recording devices, there may be no safe place to clear
your head. Just ask this guy. Yes, he`s accused of gunning down a young dad on his front porch. And the prosecutors say they have the audiotape of
him muttering away saying he murdered the son of a bitch and that`s not good.
[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: When you`re accused of a crime, you got to be mindful of every little thing you say and every single person that you talk to. Like, for
instance, take Robert Durst, accused of killing his wife, his best friend, and his neighbor. He probably should never have said the following when he
was still miked up in a bathroom after an interview.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT DURST, DEFENDANT: What the hell did I do? Killed them all, of course.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Killed them all, of course. That, of course, was New York real estate tycoon durst in the bombshell HBO interview that could now be used
against him in a murder trial, if it happens. But in Kansas City, Missouri, a different older gentleman infamously known in his own community
is in a lot of hot water for something that he said on a microphone. David Jungerman is accused of gunning down a local lawyer. That lawyer was on
his own front porch, just having come home from walking his kids to school. And all because that lawyer represented a homeless guy that the elderly Mr.
Jungerman shot while that homeless man was on Mr. Jungerman`s property. And that lawyer was able to secure almost $6 million in a civil suit
against that older Mr. Jungerman . Do you follow me?
All the witnesses in that lawyer, Thomas Pickert`s neighborhood, said that they saw that older man, in a white van that day, an older man waiting
outside of that lawyer`s house. But a witness who came forward last month told police something even more specific, like deadly specific that
Jungerman actually told him he did it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN PETERS BAKER, JACKSON COUNTY, MISSOURI PROSECUTOR: Jungerman stated that he had killed a lawyer with a gun and had gotten away with it. He did
it because the lawyer stole his money. My office filed a first degree murder charge against David G. Jungerman for the fatal shooting that
occurred on October the 25th, 2017 of Attorney Tom Pickert.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: To top it off, prosecutors say the elderly Mr. Jungerman talks about killing the attorney in a recording that was found in his own house
saying, quote, "People know that I murdered that son of a bitch. Nobody can figure out what`s going on, you know. The mother F-er is gone." Then
he continues, "The thing that sort of bothers me is when I think about it, I grin. That mother F-er has caused me a lot of problems." It is
language, apparently, that does not exactly surprise his own neighbors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If he`s going to be that violent, he needs to be back in jail permanently.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At times, he can be a really nice guy, and other times, just a problem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, what do you make of these charges then?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it`s about time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: Joining me now, Ian Cummings, he`s reporter with The Kansas City Star. Also, David Jungerman `s attorney, Daniel Ross is with me, and
Defense Attorney Sara Azari has stayed on with me from L.A. as well.
[19:40:04] All right. So, Ian Cummings, put this all together for me and explain to me the essence of the case, that smoking gun being part of it,
the recording, how does it all sort of play out in real time? What happened here?
IAN CUMMINGS, REPORTER, THE KANSAS CITY STAR (via telephone): Well, the shooting was on October 25 and there weren`t any arrests or charges in it
for months so until just earlier this month. And the police have even said in November that Jungerman was not a suspect. So, it seems like a lot of
this evidence that has come out to support the murder charge, that evidence was unearthed after Jungerman was arrested on March 8 in a separate
incident. And that`s when the recording is uncovered and some other items from the murder charge.
BANFIELD: So, there`s interviews that Mr. Jungerman did, as well, interviews with your paper. And I want to play an audio recording, if I
can, from Kansas City Star where he talks about the van, the big, white van that some of those witnesses said they saw, and how he talks about where
that van had been somewhere else. So, have a listen to this audio recording of The Kansas City Star interviewing David Jungerman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID JUNGERMAN, DEFENDANT: People have me guilty because they indicate that I -- it was my van that was there. So, people that I`ve known for
years turn their back when I walk by.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you be able to say, you know, where the van was that morning? Was --
JUNGERMAN: Sure, it was across the lake.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was there the whole morning?
JUNGERMAN: Oh, yes, it`s been there for -- Sandra, what would you say, been there three or four days?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BANFIELD: So, Ian, something significant about that interview. The clothing that Mr. Jungerman was wearing in the photograph was clothing that
a witness said they saw as they were walking their dog. They saw an older man at a white van wearing tan and khaki pants and a tan -- a little bit
darker tan jacket. The same clothing that he was wearing in your interview and apparently, the same clothing they found when they searched his
apartment.
CUMMINGS: That`s correct. The description of the clothing sounds very similar to what he was wearing in the photos and it (INAUDIBLE) a similar
clothing description was given for some surveillance video that police said that they put together from the morning of the shooting. Yes, the
description of the clothing all sounds very similar.
BANFIELD: There was also a bullet that was found in the van. What`s the significance of the bullet?
CUMMINGS: The police have said that the attorney, Tom Pickert was killed by a 17 caliber bullet, which is sort of unusual for a homicide case. And
then, months later after the killing when Mr. Jungerman is arrested in a separate incident on March 8th, police searched a vehicle that belonged to
Jungerman and found a 17 caliber bullet. So, they`re drawing the connection that it`s the same type of bullet.
BANFIELD: Wow, and all of this -- the shooting happened, just correct me if I`m wrong, Ian, because I`m trying to piece it all together at the same
time as I`m interviewing you. But the shooting happened the day after the civil verdict came down? The day after Thomas Pickert, representing the
homeless man, and it`s a little confusing, but the homeless man had been on Jungerman`s property and stealing copper, and Jungerman shot him and the
homeless man sued him because he got shot, and this lawyer was representing the homeless guy and he secured this multi-million dollar -- $5.75 million
judgment against the older Mr. Jungerman, and the shooting happened was it the next day?
CUMMINGS: Actually, the verdict came in over the summer, but the day before the shooting, Mr. Jungerman had been served with some papers as part
of a process of beginning to seize his property to pay that judgment.
BANFIELD: OK, so that`s the timing that so specific. It wasn`t the verdict, it was the, you know, being served of some of these papers, and
the heat was starting to really come down. I have so many other questions about that, especially the recording and what else was said as -- when
David Jungerman was by himself in the interrogation room. So, Ian, I`m going to ask you to stick around if you can. Daniel Ross is coming up, and
Daniel Ross again is the attorney for David Jungerman. I`m going to ask him a lot of questions about that next.
[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:50:00] BANFIELD: With me now is Daniel Ross. He`s the attorney for David Jungerman. David Jungerman, 80 years old, is facing murder. Alleged
to have killed the attorney who won a huge judgment against him. $5.75 million judgment. So, Daniel Ross, this is so curious to see that there`s
an audio recording of your client, 80-year-old David Jungerman saying the following. I don`t have the recording but I have the transcript. People
know that I murdered that son of a bitch. Nobody can figure out what`s going on, you know. The mother F-er is gone. The thing that sort of
bothers me about me is when I think about it, I grin. That mother F-er has caused me a lot of problems, you know. And then, when he was brought in,
Mr. Ross, to the interrogation room, a detective --
DANIEL ROSS, DAVID JUNGERMAN`S ATTORNEY (via telephone): Hold on, Ashleigh --
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: No, no. I just want to -- I just want to give you all the information. I`m going to get you to respond.
ROSS: Compound question there, Ashleigh.
BANFIELD: He walked -- and you get a compound answer. He walked out of the -- detective walked out of the interrogation room and the recordings
continued, and when he thought he was by himself, he said, keep your F-ing mouth shut. Keep your mouth shut. So, my question is, these things are on
record. They are recordings from your client and they are what you called bad facts in a murder case. How do you get past them?
ROSS: Well, for one thing, you are incorrect with all due respect, Ashleigh. They are not things of the record. They are descriptions from
simply a probable cause statement filed by the State of Missouri, Kansas City, Missouri. You described a number of things and alleged confession by
my client which you just quote paraphrased. Witnesses to seeing his van, witnesses to similarity in clothing, recovery of a 17-caliber, there is no
evidence of any of that. And I believe you`re aware of that. The only thing you`ve got are descriptions of that kind of information appearing in
what`s called a probable cause statement, which under Missouri law and under, I believe, the law of all states, that`s not evidence. We`ll wait
for the day that people can actually come in. The police notoriously have their spin on information in order to get people charged. And our view,
our client, vehemently denies those allegations. That`s what --
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: So, these -- I`m so fascinated. I`m so glad you said that. I`m so glad you said that. I am fascinated because typically when I read from
an affidavit and then we get to trial, that stuff does come up, especially when they say there`s tape. Are you saying this stuff is not on tape?
ROSS: I am saying that we don`t have any proof, or as you put it earlier in your comments that there was evidence, it`s on record. It`s not of
anything. We have a probable cause statement which is claiming the stuff exists.
BANFIELD: And you`re saying it doesn`t.
ROSS: You know it doesn`t exist.
BANFIELD: OK. Good. Well, that --
(CROSSTALK)
ROSS: I do not know. I know right now to call it evidence is incorrect. That`s --
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: Well, I didn`t call it evidence. I said the police say they`ve got this recording. Right. And that`s what I said. The police have these
recordings and I will be fascinated. Will you come back on the show?
ROSS: Oh, do they? Have you heard them?
BANFIELD: Yes, they said it in their affidavit.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: Yes, they said it. (INAUDIBLE) affidavit. We read it. We have it. Right here. Right here.
ROSS: Every time -- can I speak? Tell me when I can talk. Every time we get an acquittal or not guilty in a court of law, which is frequent, that
is supported by an affidavit that tells my client was guilty and did the following things. Well, guess what? Every time we get a not guilty that
means the affidavit was not accurate, correct?
BANFIELD: Well, will you come back when we can continue this conversation? Because I`ve heard that you`ve said your client is not going to plead
guilty which means we will go to trial, unless they drop of these charges, which seems unlikely.
ROSS: Oh, we are absolutely -- I`m sorry to cut you off. We are absolutely going to trial.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: OK, great. Will you come back and be -- I got 10 seconds until I`m going to black. So, unfortunately, television is not infinite, but
will you come back and talk to me about this because if it doesn`t exist, I think you have the right to come back and say so.
ROSS: Absolutely. We will be there. We will be there.
BANFIELD: OK. Daniel Ross, thank you for that. And my thanks also to Ian Cummings. We`re back right after this.
[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BANFIELD: "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight. Yesterday, we told you the most dangerous city in the country wasn`t New York and Los Angeles or
Chicago. It was Monroe, Louisiana. So, it begets the question what`s the safest city? According to neighborhoodscout.com it`s Ridgefield,
Connecticut. Followed by Bergenfield, New Jersey and Franklin, Massachusetts.
We`ll see you right back here tomorrow night 6:00 Eastern. You can also listen to our show any time. Download our podcast on Apple Podcasts,
iHeartRadio, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you get your podcasts for your CRIME & JUSTICE fix.
Thanks for watching, everybody. "DEATH ROW STORIES" begins right now.
END