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Russian Leaders Behind Hacks; Overhaul of Spy Agency; Four Charged in Hate Crimes; Trump Calls Out Toyota; Trump Deposed in Celeb Chef Legal Battle. Aired 2-2:30p ET
Aired January 5, 2017 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:13] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.
A remarkable day on our nation's capital. The heads of the top intelligence agencies going up against their future leader. They insist Russia was indeed behind the hacking of the 2016 presidential election, an act President-elect Donald Trump is not convinced is the truth.
Hours ago, the undersecretary for defense for intelligence, the commander of U.S. Cyber Command and the director of National Intelligence all sat there in Washington testifying before the Senate panel doubling down on an October report which indicated that Russians, at the highest levels of government, including President Vladimir Putin, authorized the infiltration of Democratic Party servers. In fact, the intelligence leaders are now more confident than ever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES CLAPPER, DIRECTOR FOR NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: We stand actually more resolutely on the strength of that statement that we made on the 7th of October.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: What's more here, these intelligence leaders expressed concerns over Trump's reaction thus far to their work and its impact on the spies and staff who dedicate themselves to protecting this country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADM. MIKE ROGERS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY: What we do, I think, is relevant and we realize that what we do is in no small part driven in part by the confidence of our leaders and what we do. And without that confidence, I'm - I just don't want a situation where our workforce decides to walk because I think that really is not a good place for us to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Let's go to Pamela Brown first here in Washington, our justice correspondent.
And so we listened to this testimony for hours today, Pamela. We know that Clapper said he will be declassifying some of the reports that should come out for the public early next week. What did we learn about that report from today's hearing?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, he gave some hints, Brooke, about what we can expect in this report coming out to the public Monday, as you said. He says it will lay out some of the motivations they believe why Russia hacked into the Democratic Party's e-mails and tried to tilt the election in Donald Trump's favor. So, from what we understand from officials we've spoken with, it will talk about how the intelligence community believes that Russia was trying to sow chaos, but also tilt the election in one direction.
And so this is new because the expectation, Brooke, was that this would be a comprehensive report about why the U.S. government believes that Russia is to blame. But this is taking it a step further, Brooke, laying out the motivations. And as we heard James Clapper say today, the leader of the DNI, he said it was a combination of the hacked disclosures, you know, the e-mails that were - that went out, but also fake news propaganda. He said that that - the belief in the intelligence community is that the Russians were pushing out this fake news in order to hurt Hillary Clinton. He didn't say that part explicitly, but he did say the Russians were behind the fake news propaganda and that it continues.
And then he sort of sent this implicit message to the president-elect, who, as we know, has made these public statements casting doubt on the intelligence community's assessment. He said, there is a difference between healthy skepticism and disparagement and it's crucial for the American public to have confidence in the intelligence community and that men and women have lost their lives in service to this country. So sort of a message there to the president-elect ahead of this big meeting tomorrow where James Clapper and other leaders will brief Trump, Brooke.
BALDWIN: Pamela, thank you.
Today's intel briefing taking on an even more interesting, significant spin with news that President-elect Donald Trump is also looking at possible ways to limit the power of the director of National Intelligence. Sources close to the transition team tell CNN the thinking within the Trump team is that the DNI oftentimes gets in the way of the 16 intelligence agencies it represents.
And just a short time ago, the outgoing director of National Intelligence weighed in on whether his department could use an overhaul.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: There's always room for improvement. You know, it - I would never say that this is the ultimate. I do think it would be useful though - and if we're going to reform or change the DNI or change CIA, that some attention be given to, in our case, the legislative underpinnings that established the DNI in the first place and then have added additional functions and responsibilities over the years that the Congress has added to our kit bag of duties. So - but to say that, you know, we - we can't - there's not room for improvement, I'd never suggest that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:05:05] BALDWIN: Now we go to Evan Perez, our justice correspondent, also in Washington.
So when we're talking revamping, what exactly would that mean?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, this is an idea - these are - well, these are several ideas that are making their rounds inside the Trump transition world. And one of the thoughts that they have is, is there a way to reform the - the director of National Intelligence office. It employs 1,800 people. Some think - people people think that's too many. And there is, particularly among some retired people in the intelligence community, former CIA officers, who think that the DNI gets in the way of the intelligence agencies it's supposed to be representing.
Now, I will say that I think that was a criticism, valid perhaps, five, six years ago. I think you heard less of that now. And I think one of the things that the Trump transition folks, once the new leadership, the Trump leadership gets into the CIA, I think they're going to learn a lot more about what's - what's going on inside the - both in the DNI and the CIA.
The other part of this, Brooke, is that there is this thought among the Trump folks that there perhaps is a way for the CIA to return what they see to its roots of doing more human intelligence collection. They feel that perhaps in the Obama years the agency has retrenched a little bit and has become too reliant on electronic spying, and on the fruits of the NSA's vast surveillance prowess. And so what the thought is that perhaps maybe there's a way to go back to some of that. Again, when the new leadership gets in there, they're going to do an assessment and they're going to see whether or not these are changes that they want to go through with.
I should add real quick that, you know, look, this is something that happens at the change of an administration. This is supposed to happen. When the Obama administration took office, one of the ideas they had was to split the FBI into two separate agencies. After they got in, they took a look and they saw that it didn't make any sense and they dropped that idea, Brooke.
BALDWIN: I know my next guest who knows the CIA quite well values this notion of human intelligence. We'll ask him about that.
Evan, thank you so much.
Before we get to him, though, the man who led today's two-hour intelligence hearing before the Armed Senate Committee spoke after it was over. It was this huge scrum. In the middle you found Senator John McCain and our correspondent Manu Raju. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: You said you don't think the outcome of the election was affected, but do you think that's the -
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: I said I don't know, but I don't - I will not believe that the outcome of the election was affected until there is proof that there is.
RAJU: Do you think -
MCCAIN: I will not assume it.
RAJU: Do you -
MCCAIN: And no one else should either.
RAJU: Do you think that Trump was helped by Russia's hacking?
MCCAIN: I have no idea, but I - but I have seen no information that he was helped.
RAJU: Do you have confidence, though, that the incoming administration will agree with tougher sanctions on Russia?
MCCAIN: Well, we'll find out. I have no confidence either way. I have not - I have no - not - no conclusion either way.
RAJU: And if he opposes it, will Congress roll him, in your opinion?
MCCAIN: I don't count votes, but I will certainly - and Lindsey Graham and I and Cardon and others have - are preparing very tough sanctions against Russia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Let's have a big conversation with CNN's chief political analyst Gloria Borger, here with me in New York, and John Kiriakou. He was the first CIA official actually to blow the whistle on the agency's use of waterboarding. Actually served two years in federal prison for leaking that classified information to a journalist.
So I just want to welcome both of you.
And, John, you know, you're closest to so much of this, so I want to begin with you and the notion that, you know, this president-elect here, Mr. Trump, continues to doubt Russia's interference in the election, which puts him at odds with, you know, folks you used to work with, intel agencies, and also, you know, prominent members of his own party. Does that tick you off?
JOHN KIRIAKOU, FORMER CIA OFFICER CONVICTED OF LEAKING CLASSIFIED INFO: No, it doesn't necessarily tick me off. What bothers me, though, is that the president-elect is so willing to air this dirty laundry in public. This is really an issue at the policy level that should be done privately between the president-elect and his people, the CIA and the Congressional Oversight Committees.
BALDWIN: So what ticks you off is that he's doing it in 140 characters or less?
KIRIAKOU: Yes, that bothers me.
KIRIAKOU: I think it's unusual, maybe even unprecedented. And I think, frankly, that we can - we can even dispense with a lot of this if - if the CIA, if the White House really would agree to declassify or at least taraline (ph) some of this - this information. When I say taraline (ph), I mean water it down enough so that it can be made public. It could be presented to Congress writ large, rather than just the oversight committees. For example, there ought to be a trail of bread crumbs that NSA should be able to discern if the Russians did indeed hack this remotely. At least they could tell us that.
BALDWIN: Sure. Sure. And I want to come back to you.
But, Gloria, just on - when you look at this whole meeting and you look at the different members of the committee and even a Lindsay Graham, for example, right, who normally goes at it with a James Clapper.
[14:10:00] GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Oh, sure.
BALDWIN: But today, you know, total 180 in that regard.
BALDWIN: I just think the blurred political lines between the IC (ph) and the president-elect and these members.
BORGER: Right. I mean he did get in a little laugh (ph) at President Obama today. He said, you know, he's thrown a pebble at the cyber warfare issue.
BORGER: And that he intends to throw a rock at Russia on this. So he did manage to smack Obama that way.
BORGER: But, yes, I mean Lindsey Graham and John McCain and most people on that committee, say one or two, were very willing to say, look, this is a major problem that we have to deal with. And I think they - they're also trying to make this distinction, it's not a question of the - they know that it was the intent of the Russians to influence this election for Donald Trump. They are not making a judgment about whether in fact the election was influenced.
BALDWIN: Right, John McCain stopped short of saying any of that.
BORGER: Exactly, because - because nobody on that committee is disparaging Donald Trump's victory. And I think that's what Donald Trump is worried about. He's thinking, they're trying to delegitimize his victory. That's not the case.
BALDWIN: What's interesting too - but what's interest too is, that according to John McCain in that scrum with Manu, he hasn't even talked to Trump about this. Does that -
BALDWIN: Does that surprise you?
BORGER: Well, it - it doesn't given the world in which we live right now. I mean they're on different sides of this issue.
BALDWIN: Phone call.
BORGER: Donald Trump has made his - well, right. Donald Trump has made his views publicly known. He didn't pick up the phone and call John McCain and have a discussion about it either. So this is what's so amazing is that you have a president-elect on a collision course with not only his own intelligence folks, but also with senior Republicans in his own party. At some point they are going to have to talk to each other about this.
John, back offer to you, because as Evan was just reporting on this overhaul of the DNI and the CIA, you know, really relying on human intel, do you think that's a smart move?
KIRIAKOU: Oh, I think that's a very smart move.
KIRIAKOU: The whole purpose of the CIA is very simple, it's to recruit spies to steal secrets. And that's what the CIA should be doing. It's not a paramilitary organization. It's a human intelligence collection organization. And I think that the more CIA officers who are overseas doing their job rather than sitting in Langley, Virginia, the better.
BALDWIN: John, let me play you some sound. This is the new Senate minority leader, Chuck Schumer. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), MINORITY LEADER: You take on the intelligence community. They have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you. So even for a practical, supposedly hard-nosed businessman, he's being really dumb to do this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: I'm looking at you smiling. When you heard Chuck Schumer say that, what was your first thought, John?
KIRIAKOU: I actually laughed out loud when I heard him do that. BALDWIN: Yes.
KIRIAKOU: He doesn't mean November 22, 1963. What he means is, if the CIA's heart isn't in its relationship with the president, they can slow roll. And the reason is, you know, so many CIA officers have been at the agency for 20 years, 25, 30 years. They know they can wait out this president, just like they've waited out previous presidents. And so maybe they're not going to go after the most - the riskiest operation or go after the most well-placed source. Maybe they're just going to slow things down and wait until there's a change in administration before they ramp up again.
BALDWIN: A slow roll. John Kiriakou, thank you so much. Gloria Borger, as always, thank you.
KIRIAKOU: Thanks for having me.
BALDWIN: Next, just in, President-elect Donald Trump deposed today in his legal fight with a celebrity chef. We'll tell you what happened there.
Also ahead, the president-elect calling out another car company. Hear his threat now against Toyota from Twitter.
And breaking news in the case of four people seen on a video torturing a man with special needs and shouting "f Trump." Those details ahead.
[14:17:56] BALDWIN: Breaking news here on CNN. Thanks for being with me. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
In Chicago, we can now tell you, that those four young adults are being charged with hate crimes over a vicious attack that was actually live streamed on FaceBook. We'll play you a portion of the video, but just a warning, what you're about to see is beyond disturbing. It shows an 18-year-old man with special needs, he is bound, his mouth taped shut, cowering in the corner of this room. His attacks, two men and two women are laughing and shouting profanities about white people and Donald Trump, while kicking and punching this victim for 30 minutes. At one point, his scalp is slashed with a blade.
Ryan Young is on this for us in Chicago.
And, you know, seeing that video, I don't even have words for it. Tell me about these charges and what police are saying.
RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, look, I've seen this video over and over and every time I see it or hear it, actually it's the hearing it which really bothers you because you can feel it in the pit of your stomach.
YOUNG: They actually took the young man's head and stuck it in a toilet at one point and tried to make him drink the water in there.
We do now have more information about this. We're told that all four people are going to be charged with aggravated kidnapping, hate crime, aggravated unlawful restrained, aggravated battery with a deadly weapon and robbery. We also know in the next 45 minutes there will be a news conference with police that will be detailing parts of this investigation because obviously there's still parts of this that we're still trying to discover.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at him, tied up.
YOUNG (voice-over): This disturbing 30-minute video, streamed live on FaceBook, shows a man tied up, his mouth covered, crouched in the corner of a room.
SUPERINTENDENT EDDIE JOHNSON, CHICAGO POLICE: It's sickening. It's sickening. You know, it makes you wonder what would make individuals treat somebody like that?
YOUNG: Chicago police describing the victim as an 18-year-old white male with special needs. His attackers are seen laughing as they kick, punch and cut his forehead with a knife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Donald Trump
(EXPLETIVE DELETED) white people boy. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) white people boy.
YOUNG: Four people now in custody, all African-Americans, two males and two females. Police say the victim was targeted because he has a mental health challenge, but they are investigating whether the attack was racially motivated.
[14:20:09] COMMANDER KEVIN DUFFIN, CHICAGO POLICE: They're young adults and they make stupid decisions. That certainly will be part of whether or not a hate crime is - if we seek a hate crime to determine whether or not this is sincere or just stupid ranting and raving.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) represents Trump.
YOUNG: At this point, the superintendent is rejecting any connection to President-elect Donald Trump, but the investigation is ongoing.
JOHNSON: Some of it is just stupidity. You know, people just ranting about something that they think might make a headline. I know that he has mentioned Chicago, but I can't connect that with what these folks did. YOUNG: Police say the victim was taken from the suburbs and could have
been missing from anywhere between 24 and 48 hours. Officers found the victim wandering the streets in crisis Tuesday afternoon and brought him to a hospital.
DUFFIN: He's traumatized by the incident. It took most of the night for him to calm down enough to be able to talk to us.
YOUNG: Brooke, looking at this, the four suspects will have their first court appearance tomorrow. And also looking at the names here. It looks like two of the people, the females, are related. We're working to get the mugshots right now. And, again, that news conference in about the next 35 minutes or so.
BALDWIN: We'll talk it like and we'll talk to you again. Ryan Young, thank you so much, in Chicago for us.
Coming up next, the president-elect calling out another car company. Hear his threat now against Toyota and what it just did to the stock price.
Also just in, Donald Trump deposed today in his legal fight with a celebrity chef. Hear what happened.
We'll be back in a moment.
[14:26:10] BALDWIN: Just into us, President-elect Donald Trump taking to Twitter and taking aim at Toyota's plans to build a car manufacturing plant in Mexico. Mr. Trump tweeted, quote, "Toyota Motor said will build a new plant in Baha, Mexico, to build Corolla cars for U.S. No way! Build plant in U.S. or pay big border tax."
Sara Murray, our CNN political reporter watching all of the twitters.
And we saw that and we thought, OK. And, by the way, guys, if you want to show the stock price, apparently it did dip about a half a percentage point. Here you go. Today, you see the drop from the tweet. Is it a threat? Will there be follow-through? How do you read this?
SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Well, I - that's the big question. And it's pretty clear Donald Trump is not going to all of a sudden tone it down just because he's the president-elect and just because the things he sends out on Twitter can send stock prices down.
What is less clear is whether he is going to actually implement these policies or whether this really is the beginning of a negotiation for him. If this is just a threat he puts out there. On the campaign trail he said he would impose a 35 percent tax on cars that were made in Mexico. Now, he could work with Congress to do something like that. He can't do something like that to a specific company and just say, Toyota, you're the only one that has to pay 35 percent taxes. Will he do it is the question, though. There are a lot of people in Congress, a lot of Republicans in Congress, who don't think that this is sound trade policy and think ultimately you're just going to have American consumers paying more. But maybe, in Donald Trump's eyes, this is just another way to strike a deal with another company, convince Toyota to keep some jobs, keep a plant in the U.S. and say, look, I'm victorious again.
BALDWIN: Right. Right.
The other note on Trump today, this deposition with celebrity chef Jose Andres. How's that going?
MURRAY: So he completed his deposition today, we were told by his spokeswoman, Hope Hicks. This was happening earlier today at Trump Tower. And this is a little perplexing because while he has settled other lawsuits that were seemingly more complicated than this one, while he has unloaded some potential real estate deals that might be a little sticky, this is -
BALDWIN: He's fighting this fight.
MURRAY: He's fighting this fight. This is ongoing. And Alan Garten, who's the general counsel for the Trump Organization, actually put a statement out on this today sort of dismissing the deposition, saying, "the deposition was completed earlier today and lasted just over one hour as the case is fairly straightforward." He goes on to say in short this is the tenant's fault. He broke the lease. He should have stuck with it and we're going to seek all these penalties. So we will see if that works out for him. But, obviously, it's a little bit strange to have an incoming president-elect spend part of his day being deposed in a lawsuit with a celebrity chef.
BALDWIN: Yes. New times. Uncharted territory.
BALDWIN: Sara Murray, thank you very much.
Coming up next, WikiLeaks and Russian hacking front and center at a hearing today on Capitol Hill. So what is the relationship between the president-elect and Julian Assange?
Also ahead, Republicans want to repeal and replace Obamacare, but what's the replacement plan? We're now hearing when they'll come up with one, coming up.