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CNN NEWSROOM

Trump: Media Rigging Election In Favor Of Clinton; WikiLeaks Hacks Clinton Goldman Sachs Speeches; Trump Supporter "A lot of bloodshed" If Clinton Wins; New Polls Show Clinton with National Lead; Pence Disagrees With Trump On Russian Hackers; Third Party Candidate Aims For "Never-Trump" Conservatives; SNL Spoofs Awkward Debate Moments. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired October 16, 2016 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:02] FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. All right. We're just 22 days away until Election Day. Two new major polls showing Clinton in the lead and ABC News/"Washington Post" poll shows Hillary Clinton four points ahead of Donald Trump and an NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll shows Clinton with an 11-point advantage. Both polls were taken after that leaked tape of Trump bragging about grabbing women, begging the question, how is that affecting the race? We'll be discussing that this hour.

And Donald Trump continues to beat his drum of fear declaring this election rigged, dishonest and saying the media is distorted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The election is being rigged by corrupt media pushing false allegations and outright lies in an effort to elect Hillary Clinton president. But we are to going to stop it. We are not going to back down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Those comments just as a ninth woman now has stepped forward accusing Trump of sexual assault. Saying he grabbed her and kissed her at his Mar-a-Lago estate. Meanwhile, the Clinton campaign has its own controversy to deal with ahead of Wednesday night's debate. WikiLeaks has hacked and released what appears to be transcripts of Clinton's paid speeches to Goldman Sachs. Both candidates are off the trail and preparing for the debate today.

But their surrogates are speaking out. This morning on CNN "STATE OF THE UNIon" former New York City mayor and top Trump advisor, Rudy Giuliani responded to the republican candidate's rigged election comments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: I mean, I think you would agree with the premise that our form of government has been strong because politicians accept the outcome of elections especially, the most notable example in recent history with then vice president Al Gore conceding after the very intense Florida recount.

I want you to take a look at what a Trump supporter the Dan (inaudible) Ohio told "The Boston Globe." "If she's in office, I hope we can start a coup. She should be in prison or shot. He's a 50- year-old contractor. There's going to be a lot of bloodshed, but that's what it's going to take. I would do whatever I can for my country. There are a lot of republican officials who are very concerned about Donald Trump constantly saying that the system is rigged. Saying that if he loses the state such as Pennsylvania it's only because it will be stolen and now we have a Trump supporter calling for bloodshed.

Are you not concerned at all about the tone and tenor of these remarks?

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: I have -- I've dealt with whacky jerks on my side and against me for too long to blame it on the candidate. You can find just as many whacko nuts on her side that write horrible and awful things. So, when he talks about a rigged election, he's not talking about the fact that it's going to be rigged at the polls. What he's talking about is that 80 percent to 85 percent of the media is against him.

When you look at "The New York Times," you pick it up every morning on top of the paper there are three stories that are anti-Trump. Some of them totally baseless, some of them silly. And then at the bottom you get a little something about WikiLeaks or -- same thing with the "Washington Post." I mean, they're way of out control. The Daily News" clown outfits of Donald Trump.

TAPPER: Okay. But Mr. Mayor, I understand that --

GIULIANI: That's what -- and you know that. Please, let me finish. You let Nancy Pelosi go on for like two, three minutes without interrupting her. Now, the reality is -- the reality is that he makes it clear. He points right at you, at the press. He makes it clear who he thinks is rigging --

TAPPER: Then why does he call for people to go to elections -- to go to polling places to the election monitors? Why does he say if I lose Pennsylvania, it is because that's it's stolen. Pennsylvania --

GIULIANI: There are -- there are -- there a few places and not many in the swing states. There are a few places where they've been notorious for stealing votes. Pennsylvania, Chicago. There'd be places where a lot of cheating has gone on over the years. I know that from my own knowledge of bussing people in from Camden.

When I ran for mayor of New York City the first time, some people voted eight and ten times and the second time I had firefighters and police officers outside checking on the buses so we take down the number of the bus, the bus they voted ten times and then we wouldn't let the bus vote, again. And when I asked Randy Levine, who's now president of the Yankees, who visits for me. I said, how much of the cheating did we stop? He said, "I think we stopped about 75 percent of it. But we still going to have to give about 25,000 votes. I'm sorry. Dead people generally vote for democrats rather than republicans.

TAPPER: So, he's not talking about elections being stolen except in some cases when he is talking about elections being stolen.

GIULIANI: I would be -- if you want me to tell me that I think the election of Philadelphia and Chicago is going to be fair, I would have to be a moron to say that. I mean, I would have to dis-learn everything I learned in 40 years.

TAPPER: The republican party of Philadelphia would disagree with you. They looked into the allegations from 2012 and they said that there is nothing irregular with what happened. There are, I guess, were areas where people only voted for Obama just like in Utah. There are places that only voted for Romney.

GIULIANI: Maybe there are situations in which it's right. I remember a case when I was associate attorney general where 720 dead people voted in the Chicago in the 1982 election. I remember in my own election about 60 dead people voted. So I can't sit here and tell you that they don't cheat. And I know because they control the polling places in these areas there are no republicans. That is very hard to get people there who will challenge votes.

So, what they do is they leave dead people on the rolls and then they pay people to vote those dead people four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.

TAPPER: I have to -- we have to go, Mr. Mayor -- but just to put a button on this, it sounds as you are saying that Trump is serious when he says that the election is going to be --

GIULIANI: I'm not saying that.

TAPPER: You just laid out a whole case on how democrats do elections.

GIULIANI: If she wins Illinois by eight percent or he wins Illinois by eight percent, then that cheating isn't going to make any difference. If he wins Pennsylvania by five or she wins by five, it'll make no difference. If it's a one or two-point race it could make a difference in a few places. Not going to make a difference in Indiana, not going to make any difference in North Carolina, not going to make any difference in some a lot of other places --

TAPPER: Okay. Well, that's not -- that's just not an -- that's not an affirmation of our -- of the way our elections are held this country.

GIULIANI: But we do cheat. We have people who cheat in elections.

TAPPER: You're saying only democrats. Only democrats cheat.

GIULIANI: I found very few situations where republicans cheat. They don't control the inner cities the way democrats do. Maybe if republicans control the inner cities, they do as much cheating as democrats.

TAPPER: I think a lot of election experts that would have very, very strong disagreements with you.

GIULIANI: Well then they never prosecute election fraud.

TAPPER: All right. Mr. Mayor, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. Let's talk more about this with our panel CNN presidential historian and former director of the Nixon presidential library, Tim Naftali. And CNN political commentator and senior contributor for the Daily Beast, Matt Lewis. Good to see both of you, gentlemen.

All right. So, Tim, you first. How do you interpret Rudy Giuliani's comments? Are they potentially dangerous this close to Election Day?

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, it's dismaying. It's dismaying that somebody who served as a law enforcement prosecutor should be, per force, telling the American people and telling Trump supporters that the Democratic Party cheats. And this is laying the foundation for a period of national uncertainty after the election. Should current trends continue and Hillary Clinton be elected, Mr. Giuliani and Donald Trump are laying out a case for not accepting the outcome.

Now, Mr. Giuliani, did give a sort of subtle expression of the fact that, well, you know, if the race isn't that close, it's not fraud. And where the fraud won't matter, but he is saying that he expects the democrats to cheat. That's really dangerous. And it's unprecedented. You have not heard this from surrogates in elections before in this way. This really is new in American elections and I would hope that people who care about the sanctity of the institutions, our institutions will stand up.

I notice Paul Ryan yesterday said that he didn't agree with these comments about the election being rigged and I understand that Pence has also distanced himself from these comments.

WHITFIELD: And you've kept all that up. In fact, I have that for you. This is Paul Ryan through a spokesperson saying, "Our democracy relies on confidence and election results and the speaker is fully confident the state will carry out this election with integrity." And we also heard from the interim DNC Chair Donna Brazile saying this, "Donald Trump is trying to convince voters that their votes don't count by telling them that the system is rigged. He's wrong. Voting has never been easier and more Americans are seeing Donald Trump's fear mongering for what it really is. Fear."

And then you mentioned Mike Pence. He did comment on this, as well as the former house speaker, Newt Gingrich. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: I'm just saying to you there are clearly cases where you clearly have intimidation. There are cases where you clearly have theft. There are cases where you have people -- there's a guy in California who was voting 24 years after he died.

So the suggestion as to people who are concerned about honest elections are somewhat nutty, I think is a mistake. Second, Trump's major complaint about the election is not polls, it's not at the poll level. It's at the news media level. This election is being rigged by the national media who are doing everything they can to suppress bad news about Hillary and everything they can to --

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R-IN), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We will absolutely accept the results of the election. Look, the American people will speak in an election that will culminate on November the 8th. But the American people are tired of the obvious bias in the national media. That's where the sense of a rigged election goes here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So, Matt, do you agree with Tim that it's not even potentially dangerous leading up to the election, but potentially dangerous after the election as it pertains to whatever the outcome?

MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. The interesting thing here, of course, is that we've always had, you know, here and there the potential for voter fraud. And I think any responsible and prudent campaign would have measures to try to make sure that that doesn't happen. But Donald Trump is sort of preemptively declaring that there's going to be voter fraud. It seems like he is sort of setting up his voters in case he loses, providing them with an excuse.

And I think it's very dangerous and irresponsible rhetoric because it does seem like Trump is setting it up to be. He now thinks he's going to lose and if and when that happens, he's going to say that I didn't lose. It was rigged. And the -- it is so important, I think, for the American people to have trust in the election and the electoral process and the efficacy of elections.

And you want to talk about really creating a problem that would be so hard for us to solve. The belief in the institution that your vote actually counts. If politicians, if Donald Trump can sort of wear down and destroy the notion that your vote actually counted, that's a really huge problem, I think, for America.

WHITFIELD: All right. So Tim and Matt, stick with us. We've got more to talk about straight ahead another woman and another claim about Donald Trump's behavior. A closer look at the ninth accuser to step forward.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: The sexual assault scandal surrounding Donald Trump is getting bigger. Now, a ninth woman has come forward accusing the republican candidate of unwanted sexual advances. 63-year-old Cathy Heller said the incident happened at Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort nearly 20 years ago. CNN's Jessica Schneider joins me now.

So, Jessica, you have spoken to Heller, what did she tell you? JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, Cathy Heller tells me that she was shaken and shocked by this uninvited kiss and aggressive behavior. She's 63 years old now and but she says it was in the late 1990s when she was at Mar-a-Lago for a mother's day brunch with several members of her family. She says her mother-in-law introduced her to Trump and then Heller tells me, she said, "I put out my hand and said hello and he grabbed me." I was standing and had heels on and almost fell back. He pulled me toward him. He was very strong.

She then tells me that that's when he kissed her. Now, she says her family saw all this happen and for years it was just a running family joke. Now though realizing it is not a laughing matter. And I did speak with one of her friends who said it was about a year and a half ago when Donald Trump was rising to political prominence that Cathy Heller started telling her friends about Trump's actions and inappropriate kiss. And then of course last Friday when the "Access Hollywood" tape came out, Cathy Heller realized that she wasn't the

only one this has happened to and for that, she decided to share her story.

WHITFIELD: And then what has the Trump campaign now said about this particular accusation?

SCHNEIDER: Well, the Trump campaign has been responding furiously to this. Both the candidate himself and also his team. All of these allegations. But in particular for this Cathy Heller accusation, Jason Miller, the senior communications adviser came out with this statement very biting. He said, "The media has gone too far in making this false accusation. There is no way something like this would have happened in a public place on mother's day at Mr. Trump's resort. It would have been the talk of Palm Beach for the past two decades. The reality is this. For the media to wheel out a politically motivated democratic activist with a legal dispute against the same resort own by Mr. Trump, does a disservice to the public and anyone covering this story should be embarrassed for elevating this bogus claim."

Now, two things to address in that statement. Cathy Heller does admit she's a Hillary supporter. She also has given money to the Hillary Clinton campaign. And as for that legal dispute that's alluded to in the statement from the Trump campaign, Cathy Heller tells me, it's not a legal dispute. It's a money dispute with Mar-a-Lago. Her family has been trying to get back some of the initiation fees they paid decades ago.

In addition, Donald Trump also tweeting about this this morning saying that this is all part of a rigged election and media bias. Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Jessica Schneider, thank you so much.

All right. This morning CNN's Jake Tapper asked top Trump campaign adviser Rudy Giuliani about this ninth accuser and if he believed that all nine women are as Trump insists, liars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So you think the nine women are lying. You believe Donald Trump.

GIULIANI: I would not say it that way. I believe Donald Trump. I don't know about the nine women. I haven't studied the case. I'm a lawyer. I'd have to study each case to tell you -- to tell you that. I'm not going to engage in Clinton-type contact and attack them. I'm just telling you that I believe he's telling the truth. I do not believe -- some of these things appear to me on their face to be kind of untrue.

Fifteen minutes of groping and a first-class cabin of an airplane. It doesn't make sense. I've been in first class a lot, fortunately, since I've stopped being mayor I can afford first class. I -- you know, you see everything that goes on in first class.

TAPPER: So Donald Trump -- you just kind of alluded to the fact that Donald Trump has condemned the Clintons for attacking Bill Clinton's accusers, the women who accused Bill Clinton of misconduct. You're kind of refraining from doing so, even though you're questioning some of these accounts. But Donald Trump is out there on stages calling them liars and, actually, in some instances, attacking how attractive they are. Basically suggesting that they're not attractive enough for him to ever kiss or grope without consent.

For those voters out there, Mr. Mayor, who are inclined to believe all of these women, all of nine of Trump's accusers and Bill Clinton's accusers and just say, you know what, I believe all these women. How are they supposed to reconcile this given the fact that imperially Trump is attacking these women much more so than the Clintons ever did?

GIULIANI: No, that's not true.

TAPPER: Sure it is.

GIULIANI: Oh, it is not. The Bimbo squad --

TAPPER: Donald Trump is out there giving speeches attacking them, calling them liars and saying that they're not good-looking enough.

GIULIANI: I really don't want to dispute this with you. I mean, the four women who I met with tell me that Hillary Clinton was engaged in all kinds of attacks on them both public and private. But in any event, shouldn't we be beyond that now? Shouldn't we be beyond Donald Trump's past and Hillary Clinton's past and should we be talking about who's going to raise taxes and lower taxes? Who's going to deal with ISIS, who created ISIS, what are we going to do in Somalia where obviously we have a -- we have a ground war going on in Somalia and the president says no boots on the ground. We have boots on the ground.

TAPPER: These are things that Donald Trump is not mentioning in his speeches at all. Donald Trump' speeches as you know, are basically -- he goes out there and he attacks the women who are accusing him and, by the way, when you talk about shouldn't we be over this, Donald Trump, the women that you just referred to. The three women who accused Bill Clinton of sexual assault or worse and the woman who Hillary Clinton was a court-appointed attorney to represent her rapist, those four women -- Donald Trump brought them to the republican debate. It's not the media making sexual assault of this issue. Donald Trump is the one making sexual assault and issue.

GIULIANI: They asked to come. They asked to come. But the reality is, can we get off it? I mean, do we have to take the bait?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. Still to come, WikiLeaks releases more hacked e-mails and what appears to be three speeches Hillary Clinton gave to a Wall Street firm. How this latest dump of stolen information could play out in Wednesday's debate?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. So as Donald Trump faces new allegations of sexual misconduct, the republican presidential candidate is stepping up his attacks against the husband of his opponent blasting Bill Clinton's past sexual improprieties. The Clinton supporters are firing back. Vice-President Joe Biden says the former president was contrite and insists Trump's hot mike comments from the 2005 video showed that the GOP nominee is unapologetic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I can't make any excuses for Bill Clinton's conduct. And I wouldn't attempt to make any excuses for the conduct. But he paid the price for it. He paid the price. He was impeached. And he was -- he expressed his deep sorrow and acknowledged what he did. This guy, as said, has acknowledged that he has been a sexual predator. He's acknowledged that he abused his power.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Two men in positions of power accused of sexual misconduct. So, why aren't Bill Clinton and Donald Trump held to the same standard? Today's CNN Jake Tapper put that very question to house democratic leader and former house speaker Nancy Pelosi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITYLEADER: Well, it is a double standard. Bill Clinton is not on the ballot. He is not on the ballot. Hillary Clinton is the candidate for president that we are asking people to vote for. Not because she's a woman and not because her husband was president and all the good things he did, as well. But because she is the best person to be president of the United States. One of the best qualified in the history of our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Bill Clinton may not be on the ballot, but if Hillary wins, he will be in the White House. Here to talk about it Adam Hodge, Communications Director for the Democratic National Committee. Good to see you, Adam.

So Nancy Pelosi they're saying not to focus on Bill Clinton when voting for Hillary Clinton. But Hillary Clinton has said her husband will play a role in her administration, like focusing on the economy. So why ask voters not to take Bill Clinton's past into consideration when they are choosing -- while they're choosing between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump?

ADAM HODGE, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR THE DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Look, I think what you heard from Nancy Pelosi is exactly right. And I think -- look, as we get into the debate this week, the one most important thing is just the opportunity for Secretary Clinton to lay out her vision and the solutions that she's going to take to being the commander in chief. She's the one on the ballot. She's the one running to be president of the United States and I think the American people are really responding to the ideas and solutions that she's putting on the table.

WHITFIELD: So, your view is that voters also would be considering Donald Trump's wife, Melania from her work immigration history or this past summer's alleged plagiarized portions of her RNC speech.

HODGE: Look, I mean -- we'll leave it to Mr. Trump to how he wants to run his campaign. The only thing we can control is talking about the issues and solutions that are really on the minds of the American voters. And that's what we've done across the country. Talking about, you know, child care. Talking about how we're going to lift everyone -- every American up. Talking how we're going to build an economy that works for everyone. That's what the people want to hear about.

WHITFIELD: Yes. Is it your view then that from the point of view of American voters that it's irrelevant the spouse's history or conduct?

HODGE: The American people don't want to worry about what happened in the past. I think what they really want to worry about and what they want to hear from the people who they're going to vote for is what ideas and solutions they have to the biggest challenges that we face. That's the most important part we're looking forward. And, again, Secretary Clinton is the only candidate in this race who has really offered concrete solutions who's really talked about the ideas that would drive her time in the oval office.

And what you're hearing from Donald Trump is just nothing but slogans and empty promises. He's not talking about the solutions that the American people want to hear about.

WHITFIELD: Okay. So now three days ahead of the last -- this final presidential debate, let's talk about the WikiLeaks dump, you know, of these alleged e-mails about the Clinton camp and about the political behavior. Do you believe in which she will address those issues right off the top during the debate? Is it at all a distraction or in any way undermining of her campaign?

HODGE: Well, look, we can't forget that this was a crime committed against the Democratic Party perpetrated by Russia, our U.S. intelligence committee were unequivocal that they think that this was a crime intended to influence our election.

[14:30:03] The only person who stands to benefit from that interference is Donald Trump.

It should give every American pause. Look, every day when I walk past the Watergate the file cabinet that is in the basement of our building, this is just a modern day version of that crime.

And you have to ask the question, why won't Donald Trump admit that's what is going on. He's been briefed by the FBI. They've told him who they think is behind this, and yet, he will still stand there on the debate stage in front of 80 million Americans and won't answer the real question about what he knows to be true. That should make every American pause --

WHITFIELD: And even his running mate, Mike Pence today on "Meet The Press" said the opposite. And said in it is his belief that Russia has been meddling in these cyber-hacks yet his running mate, as you mentioned Donald Trump, has been saying it is uncertain.

HODGE: Look, I take my word from the U.S. intelligence community. They know what they're talking about. They are seeing their own intelligence and they have been very, very clear what's going on here.

And I think, again, that should give all Americans regardless of your party pause. This is a crime and we shouldn't be using all the information that has come in about this. We don't know if it's real or fake. Just this week you saw the story --

WHITFIELD: In terms of the Clinton campaign is still not willing to say whether those e-mails are, indeed, authentic.

HODGE: That's right. Just this week there was a news story that broke that showed that there were fake op-eds submitted supposedly from the DNC to "The New York Times" and it was a fake e-mail. A complete clone. We can't speak to what is real and what's not.

WHITFIELD: We'll leave it right there. Adam Hodge, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

HODGE: Always a pleasure.

WHITFIELD: All right, with Wikileaks and the slew of now Trump accusers, the next debate is likely going to be bruising. Ahead, we'll talk about the candidates' possible strategies as they prepare for this final faceoff.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:35:29]

WHITFIELD: Hello. Welcome back to NEWSROOM. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. The sexual assaults accusations against Donald Trump are perhaps not the campaign's only dilemma heading into Wednesday's debate. Trump's own running mate, Mike Pence disagrees with Trump's stance on Russia and cyber-security. Trump has said it's unclear whether Russia is to blame. But here is Mike Pence on NBC's "Meet The Press" this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PENCE: Well, I think there's more and more evidence that implicates Russia and there should be serious consequences. Russia is violating the privacy and the security of the American people.

CHUCK TODD, NBC HOST: Why doesn't your running mate believe that?

PENCE: And I certainly hope what the vice president said this morning is something that they follow through on.

TODD: But let me ask you, why does your runningmate not believe?

PENCE: Too often has spoken things on the foreign stage and then not follow through like moving red lines, fainting a reset with Russia. My hope is that the evidence does float to Russia that there are, in fact, serious consequences and there should be serious consequences. Remember, this avalanche of e-mails --

TODD: Governor, why doesn't your running mate believe what you believe about a foreign government in Russia trying to hack into the American democracy?

PENCE: Well, Donald Trump and I believe we should follow the facts and America should stand strong and we should stand up for cyber- security.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Let's bring back our political panel to talk about this, Tim Naftali and Matt Lewis. OK, so, Gentlemen, you heard the differences there and how Mike Pence, you know, does indeed believe that Russia had something to do with the cyber-attack.

So, Tim, how strange is this that you would have these two sharing a ticket, yet, they would see things pretty differently on a pretty sizable issue.

NAFTALI: A number of people when watching the vice presidential debate thought that they were watching the beginning of the 2020 campaign. It is really interesting to see Governor Pence distance himself on a number of key Trump issues from his running mate.

WHITFIELD: Is there a reason for that in your view or is it just a distinction that they're different?

NAFTALI: You don't see that in campaigns. I think it's because he's trying to save his political career. He's thinking beyond -- I don't know him, so, I'm imputing motive. I don't know for sure. But the way he's acting suggests that he's trying to protect himself in case his campaign collapses. WHITFIELD: So Matt, do you see that there could be an intentional separation between the two or is it just they're not talking?

LEWIS: I think both. I think both and I think -- they're very different people. I mean, Mike Pence is a main stream conservative, sort of in the mode of a Ronald Reagan and Jack Kemp, and Donald Trump is not. He's a populist, protectionist, former Democrat.

So, they just -- they just disagree about some of these fundamental things and I think the way -- if you're Donald Trump I think the way to handle it is to not pretend that it is otherwise.

Look, I'm the head of the ticket and my administration, we're going to do things my way. But I'm excited and I think it's actually a good thing that Mike Pence and I don't agree on every single issue.

And it' like a team of rivals and it's helpful to have people around you who don't see everything exactly the way you do. So, hang a lantern on your problem. I think if you're Trump, don't pretend -- it's hard to say on TV. Don't pretend, don't pretend. I think just embrace it.

WHITFIELD: Go ahead, Tim.

NAFTALI: But that would require that Donald Trump have a thicker skin.

LEWIS: Yes.

NAFTALI: Than he's shown to have. So, you're right, but that would, you know --

WHITFIELD: So, now, we're just three days away from this final presidential debate. You have that issue of the cyber-security and you have these accusers now, nine accusers of Donald Trump and then you have the issue of the Wikileaks dump, et cetera.

So, Matt, you know, among these, you know, potential land mines for both of these candidates, does it put them in a situation where they have to, you know, really come out swinging in terms of defending themselves in all of these areas?

LEWIS: I think we always assume that debates are going to be about one big issue like the second debate we assumed that the "Access Hollywood" stuff would really be front and center and it took up about the first 20 minutes of the debate and then they were talking about Benghazi and taxes and all sorts of stuff.

[14:40:03] So, it's hard to predict what is going to really, what any debate is going to be about. I do think strategically if I were advising them, I would tell Hillary Clinton, go back to what you did in the first debate which was to sort of bait Donald Trump, get under his skin.

He usually falls for it. He usually takes the bait and I think if I were advising Donald Trump I would tell him, this election you have to say seven out of ten Americans aren't happy with the direction. Hillary Clinton is the status quo. You are the change agent.

If you say that over and over for an hour and a half, you'll win the debate. I don't think he can, but if he does, he'll win the debate.

WHITFIELD: So Tim, do you see that there's going to be a real different approach or, you know, a return to a certain approach for either one of these candidates on this third and final debate?

NAFTALI: I agree with Matt. You know, Donald Trump was most effective when he looked at Hillary Clinton and he said, you know, you have 30 years to fix these problems and you haven't. Now it wasn't fair. It wasn't a fair challenge.

But it did feed the narrative that standard politicians fail us. But, what he needs to do is to stop throwing mud and present for people why he would be a temperate, solid head of state.

WHITFIELD: Isn't it too late for that? I mean, is it too late for a new demeanor with now 22/23 days to go?

NAFTALI: Well, look, the trends are such that it looks like it's too late, but you know, we've learned in this campaign cycle not to predict things. I will say this, Donald Trump has a chance to sell himself, again. Each debate is new and there may be some people out there.

It's hard to believe, but there may be people out there who haven't made up their minds. For them, this could be a new Trump and it could help. His problem is that he's losing battleground states and I don't know if he has the campaign to actually do anything about turn out there.

But there's no question he has one more chance to try to pretend to be presidential. As for Secretary Clinton, this is great, a real opportunity to distance herself from the mud. Not to fall into the gutter with him when he dragged her really into it.

And just say what she would do as president to try to put positive on what has been a horrible election cycle so far.

WHITFIELD: All right, lots to do in just three weeks. We shall see. Thank you so much, Tim, Matt. Appreciate it.

All right, still ahead, he is the third party candidate providing one final refuge for the Never Trump conservatives. Evan McMullin joins us next on his moon shot White House bid.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:46:16]

WHITFIELD: All right, Donald Trump refusing to back down amid new allegations of sexual misconduct against him and continuing to claim that if he loses, it's because of a rigged system. This as a new NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll has Clinton up by 11 points over Trump in a four-way race. And in places like Utah, Trump is in a fight with not only Hillary Clinton, but independent candidate, Evan McMullin, who has garnered 20 percent of the vote in the state of Utah in a new Monmouth University poll. I'm joined now by Evan McMullin. All right, good to see you.

EVAN MCMULLIN, INDEPENDENT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Good to see you, Fredricka. Good to be on with you.

WHITFIELD: Excellent. Because voters across the country have gotten used to third-party candidates names like Jill Stein and Gary Johnson, but what do they need to know about Evan McMullin?

MCMULLIN: Well, that I'm more than the typical third-party candidate in the sense that I'm more of a main stream candidate. I just happen to be an independent. I'm a conservative. Unfortunately, I'm the only conservative in this race.

Donald Trump certainly is not one and he's doing enormous damage to our country in so many ways. Pitting race against race. Religion against religion and attacking women and undermining our democracy and doing the work of Vladimir Putin and suggesting that our democracy isn't legitimate.

This is a guy who should not be a major party nominee and should be nowhere close to the White House. So I and my running mate and I decided to step up and try to offer the American people a better option, not only an alternative to Donald Trump, but also to Hillary Clinton, who is one of the most, if not the most corrupt nominee of a major party in modern times.

WHITFIELD: So, Evan, your state has voted Republican since the '60s. What does it say when a third-party candidate such as yourself, you're describing yourself as a conservative independent Also putting up a very strong showing. Why are you resonating particularly in Utah?

MCMULLIN: Well, I would say that Utah has been a conservative state. In the past that meant that they voted Republican. But more about principle and conservatism and more about the fundamental principles I think, that made this country the most powerful, prosperous country on earth.

The idea that we are all created equal no matter the color of our skin or our gender or anything else. The idea that we all have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit to happiness. These are the things that I believe the people in Utah and the broader mountain west value and are looking for in their leaders.

Leaders who will protect those values. Leaders who acknowledge that those are timeless truths that are fundamental to the success of our country.

WHITFIELD: So, Evan, I'm noticing you're in Las Vegas and three days away from the final presidential debate. Does that mean that you're going to be front and center there in the audience?

MCMULLIN: Well, we'll be -- we're figuring out what we're going to be doing during the debate. We have some interesting invitations and ideas, but we have some big media engagements today and we're here for that.

But we'll see what ends up playing out on debate day. Obviously I would love to be on the stage and I would relish the opportunity to debate Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. That's probably not going to be the case.

WHITFIELD: Your polling numbers aren't such to put you on the stage but to be in the arena, you know, courtside, so to speak. Ring side, so to speak. That still a possibility?

MCMULLIN: It certainly is. We'll be -- we'll have our voices heard. But I would challenge the idea that only the Republican nominee and the Democratic nominee can be on that stage. That's the system we've got. It's set up to limit involvement of independent candidates. But it is what it is. Either way we'll have our voices heard and be advancing our message.

[14:50:06]WHITFIELD: All right, Evan McMullin, good luck.

MCMULLIN: All right, thank you.>

WHITFIELD: And we'll be right back.

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[14:53:56]

WHITFIELD: All right. "Saturday Night Live" taking on the second presidential debate with Alec Baldwin Trump responding to the accusations being made against him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Trump, we received a lot of questions online about the audiotape that was released last week of you bragging about sexually assaulting women.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, what I said is nothing compared to what Bill Clinton has done, OK. He has abused women and Martha, Anderson, hold on (inaudible). Four of those women are here tonight, four of them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait, I'm sorry, who's here? Mistresses. Bill, how could you? How will I go on with the debate? Oh, Donald, get real. I'm made of steel, this is nothing. Hi, girls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Donald Trump actually reacting on Twitter by saying, "Watching Saturday Night Live" hit job on me time to retire the boring and unfunny show. Alec Baldwin portrayal stinks. Media rigging election." That's the tweet from Donald Trump.

[14:55:12]All right, straight ahead, more on the ninth accuser speaking out against Trump claiming he kissed her against her will and then, despite the accusations, some Trump supporters all echoing Trump's message that the election is rigged. We'll talk more straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It is being rigged by corrupt media pushing false allegations and outright lies.

PENCE: I think what Donald Trump is talking about is frankly what appears to be the monolithic support of the national media for Hillary Clinton's campaign.

GINGRICH: This election is being rigged by the national media who are doing everything they can to suppress bad news about Hillary.

GIULIANI: When he talks about a rigged election, he's not talking about the fact that it is rigged at the polls. What he's talking about is 80 percent to 85 percent of the media is against it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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WHITFIELD: Hello, again. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. With less than 23 days now to Election Day, two new major polls show Clinton in the lead and the ABC News/"Washington Post" poll shows Hillary Clinton four points ahead of Donald Trump and an NBC "Wall Street Journal" poll shows Clinton with an 11-point advantage.