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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

Trump: Clinton's Advantage With Women "Going To Change"; Trump On General Election Strategy; Cruz, Kasich Pull Out Of Race; Sanders Vows Contested Convention; Trump Vs. Clinton, By Numbers; Will GOP Establishment Rally Behind Trump?; Interview with Sanders' Campaign Manager; Inside The Mission To Kill Bin Laden. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired May 4, 2016 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:00:29] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Welcome back on top the hour. And according to Donald Trump the beginning of the general election campaign, now that he is the presumptive Republican nominee. Trump is facing new challenges, not the least of which he is wildly unpopular among women.

In a Gallup poll a month ago, 77 percent of women said they had unfavorable opinion of Trump and that was even before he said Hillary Clinton was playing some sort of woman's card which can help matter. The question is does Trump have any plans to change the dynamic? Here is more of Wolf's interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Let's talk about women voters out there.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: OK.

BLITZER: If you're going to be the President of United States you going to need to do really well with women voters in the general election ...

TRUMP: And I will.

BLITZER: ... let say Hillary others, in new CNN poll that's up just 61 percent of female voters nationwide, Republicans, Democrats, Independents. They say they back Hillary Clinton, only 35 percent of women nationally say they back you. How are you going to change that?

TRUMP: I think will get a change, I think it will change rapidly because women want security. Women want strong military. They want to know that they're secure in our nation. Women want women's health issues taken care of and Hillary is not going to do it like me because I'm going to make our country rich again, I'm going to bring back our jobs, we're going to have a good economy again which we don't now, we have a horrible economy right now.

And again, remember this. NAFTA has been total disaster for our country. NAFTA was signed by the Clinton Administration. What NAFTA has done to this country and I've gone through it. I won New York big.

And by the way speaking of winning New York big, if you look at the polls the exit polls, I was number one with women by a long shot, nobody was even close to me. So, I won New York, I won Pennsylvania, I won Maryland, I won Connecticut, Delaware, Rhode Island, all of these, and Indiana the other night. If you look at the polls, number one with women and it is not even close.

BLITZER: Let's talk about the general election, Electoral College strategy going to 270 Electoral College votes. John McCain couldn't do it, as he well Mitt Romney couldn't do it. How are you going to do it? What states are you going to put in play that they couldn't put in play?

TRUMP: That's a question I love, because something I think that I am better served than anyone. First of all, you see how I did in New York. Do you agree I did very well in New York?

BLITZER: Well that's what Republicans in New York ...

TRUMP: It doesn't matter.

BLITZER: ... there's a lot of Democrats as you remember like. You won basically almost every county in the recent elections, except by the way your own personal home county here in Manhattan.

TRUMP: Which by the way is no one to review and they think I won that, too.

BLITZER: Really?

TRUMP: Yes. It's called Manhattan. But I won every single county in New York, but I won every county in Pennsylvania, every county in Maryland, I won every county in the five states plus New York which pretty good run. And I hear I won every county in Indiana last time.

BLITZER: From New York State, I am from Buffalo, upstate, you'll do well out there. Then the city, you know, New York City, there's a lot of Democrats.

TRUMP: I did very well. It was like a 50/50 deal

BLITZER: Among Republicans. Among Republicans.

TRUMP: Among Republicans, yeah. But I have many ...

BLITZER: You're not suggesting New York would be in play.

TRUMP: Oh, I am suggesting New York is in play.

BLITZER: You believe that. I know you suggested Michigan and Pennsylvania.

TRUMP: I will win upstate New York by massive numbers I win out of Long Island by massive numbers. I win all of the sections that are horribly effected by NAFTA, I help in the like the way a Clinton deal. I will win sections of this city that nobody else could win. Yes, I think New York is in play.

And by the way, if New York is in play and I won New York, then I won the election. You understand that because of the size. I'll win Michigan. Michigan is not going to be even contested by any other Republican. They wouldn't even go there. I'll win Michigan because of what's happened. They sucked all the jobs out of Michigan, too.

And I'm constantly talking about Michigan with the cars and what's happening. I think I'll win Pennsylvania. I'm sure I'm going to win Pennsylvania. I'll win Florida, which you have to win. I think I'm going to do very well, but I'm going to -- I will put states in play that no other Republican will even talk about or go to.

BLITZER: Do you think the general election campaign has already started, you versus Hillary Clinton, that for all practical purposes Bernie Sanders is out?

TRUMP: Well I think what has happened. It is been a little flip, and I'm even surprised by it. I thought I'd be going longer and she'd be going shorter. She can put it away that's like a football team that can't get the ball over the line, I put it away. She can't put it away. So, I thought that I'd be out there and she'd be campaigning against me. I didn't realize, so yeah, I'll be campaigning against her while she is campaigning.

BLITZER: So the general election campaign from your perspective starts today.

[21:05:00] TRUMP: Essentially it started, I mean yeah, started today. Started actually three months ago when I hit a pretty hard and she went down the poll.

BLITZER: And your tone is supposedly more presidential or will you really go after her?

TRUMP: Look, you know, I went to the best school, I am a smart person, I did well. You know, I am who I am. I don't like to change. I don't like to really change. Sort of interesting, there was talk about will be presidential. We had 17 people, all smart. One by one, week after week, boom, boom, boom. Gone, gone, gone. I don't maybe want to change so much. And I do want to use that same strategy for trade deals, and I want to use that same but I feel I'm a presidential person.

BLITZER: Is the same strategy that you used to get rid of the other Republican candidates you want to use now against Hillary Clinton?

TRUMP: I would say yes, I mean, and again it's a lot going to do depend on how they treat me. I mean if they treat me in a certain level, I'm not looking to do more. You know, you've seen I am a counter puncher more than anything else. I don't like -- I don't really like hitting people first. Because I don't know how, I guess -- I always felt that I am better like certain boxers, they're better counter punchers.

I have been very successful. I have been only doing for 10 months, Wolf. You know, somebody in your world give credit at end of the day. They said, you know, he is really been effective. We've never see anything like it ever before and then somebody else said and he is only been doing for the 10 months. You know, these people have been in politics for 35 years.

BLITZER: And that a very impressive that you came out of no political background for all practical purposes and now you're the Republican presidential nominee.

TRUMP: Well, but I always been very heavily involve, in politics. So I haven't been elected, and it has never been my thing frankly and I wouldn't have done at this time. I would be very happy to stay where I was doing. I have a great family, a great company, a really great company, and I love doing it. But when I see the mistakes and the stupidity of what they're doing with our country, the Iran deal, the trade deals, the -- everything is so bad, our military, they can't beat ISIS. When I see what's going on, I said I have to do this.

BLITZER: One final question because we are out of time. It's not going to be a contested convention in Cleveland, as you now know. You're the presumptive Republican nominee. You say you want to bring a little bit more show biz or pizzas to that convention. What are you talking about?

TRUMP: Well, I'd like to. I was, you know, seeing the other one, last convention was lowest rated convention I think in the history of conventions. It was not an exciting convention. And it turned out to be a waste that, should I have been won and I wasn't won. I would like to add something that would be, you know, that would make people happy. We have to promote our country. Our country -- we have to be cheerleaders to a certain extent. Our country is very depressed, people are fighting each other whether its black and white, rich and poor, I mean everybody is fighting.

President Obama has not done a good job in terms of promoting our country, in terms of being a cheerleader. And I want to make -- I want to do something that's good, that's going to make people feel good about the country. It's really not about ...

BLITZER: So what do you want to do at the convention?

TRUMP: We will be looking at certain things. I mean we'll be looking at certain things. I actually recommended things the last time they didn't do them and they should have because it was a very boring convention. But much more important and exciting, we want to have good ideas because ultimately you see ideas that matter.

We're going to make great trade deals, we were going build up our military. We were going to take care of our vets, we're going do lots of good things with education because right now our educational process is a disaster. We're going to strengthen our borders. ObamaCare is going to be repealed and replaced with something much less expensive that works much better. I mean, there are so many things we can do. That ultimately is to me more exciting than making the event exciting.

BLITZER: And right after the convention, you know, there will be three presidential debates let say you against Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders for that matter. One vice presidential debate, you're going to have to start gearing up for the debates.

TRUMP: Well, I'm ready. I mean one of the things that was interesting is that I was never sure of, you know when I hear about debates. I've never debated professionally before, and every single poll, Drudge, who's a great guy. They all have polls, "Time Magazine", they all have these polls. I think its like an average 7 of them. And they're online polls that take place right after the debate. I won every single poll of every single debate, so I feel good about my debating skills, and again, you know, with something I said I've never done this before stand there and answer formal questions, and ...

BLITZER: Hillary Clinton is a pretty good debater.

TRUMP: I think she is. I watched her. I think she is. I really do and I think Bernie is a good debater also.

BLITZER: You'll be ready.

TRUMP: I'll be ready.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Ready or not. It is happening. Its happened because of a whirl wind 24 hours. First Cruz dropped out then Kasich today. We'll take to look at the post to Indian chaos, next.

Also ahead, what would a Clinton-Trump general election look like? We got some numbers and John King is going crunch them ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:13:22] COOPER: We've heard from both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump here on the program tonight. Now, how about, we just take a breath and acknowledge what an incredible 24 hours it has been.

Not long ago, the specter of the contested convention hang over the entire Republican Party, pretty much dissipated in one day.

Chief Political Correspondent, Dana Bash joins us now. How has the party been reacting to this momentous last 24 hours?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, you would think, Anderson, that they would be better prepared given the fact that it was clearly headed this way, but it was really at the end that things happened so quickly. Of course, it was about 24 hours ago that Ted Cruz dropped out, John Kasich who didn't have a shot, but was still nominally in the race formally called it quits.

And so, now, what we have been seeing are the party elders, never mind the sort of rank and file, but more importantly, the party elders are kind of calibrate where they are. For example, Mitch McConnell, the Senate Majority Leader, he came out just about an hour ago and he had -- I think it's fair to say, tepid endorsement of Donald Trump saying that he committed to supporting the nominee, that people, that Republican voters choice. So, he is going to do that. But, there was a but there, he wants to make sure that Donald Trump understands, it is up to him to now unite the Republican Party.

And then you have George W. Bush, who came out and said he is going to not say anything, and not participate. And that's a statement and sort of a non-statement that spoke volumes. That gives you a sense of how much the party is split now. And I say now, because we still are, you know, kind of in the shock part of this situation.

[21:15:04] And you still have a lot of time for Donald Trump ...

COOPER: Right.

BASH: ... to consolidate between now and November.

COOPER: Well, I mean now that he is the nominee or the presumptive nominee, you've been talking or hearing talk about a possible third party candidacy. I mean, is that for real?

BASH: Is it for real? It is for real that there is real talk about it by real movement conservatives who are saying that they simply cannot support Donald Trump. They will not support Hillary Clinton and they are looking for a, quote, "new home". That's what a one person told me.

The problem is you can't run a third party candidate without a candidate. And sources I'm talking to tonight say that, everybody who they have talked to who is viable, whether is former generals, former senators, former governors, they have up to this point, Anderson, said no they are not interested. So they have to continue to convince somebody who real is real first. And then they have to, if they find that person proceed on the process of getting them on the ballot which is different in every state. So it would be quite complicated, never mind the fact you have a whole bunch of people in the Republican Party who don't like the concept of Trump but really dislike even more the concept of splintering Republicans and they think possibly handing with chaos to the White House to Hillary Clinton.

COOPER: And in terms of Democrats, I mean, let's remember Sanders own Indiana last night.

BASH: He does.

COOPER: What that's campaign telling you about what they see is their path forward?

BASH: He won Indiana and even the Clinton campaign of acknowledges that he is likely to do well in the next several contests in West Virginia and Kentucky and beyond. His path forward as he personally says is uphill, and it really relies on those superdelegates, the people who are not, you know, voted on but they can be swayed changing their minds. And that is a very tall order at this point. So he is continuing to go out there, to rally his supporters, to motivate his troops. He is not going after Clinton like he had in the past. So, you know, this -- he is going to keep on keeping on, but its pretty clear he knows inside of hearts he is not getting the nomination.

COOPER: All right, Dana Bash, Dana, thanks.

We will set the great political panel tonight, although I have no idea what we'll have to talk about this. Now it like it has been one of the more surreal days in American political history or anything, with us to talk about the weather I guess, the Atlantic Contributor Peter Barnet, Former South Carolina State House member Bakari Sellers, who supports Clinton. Democratic Strategist, Nomi Konst who supports Sanders, New York Times National Political correspondent Patrick Healy.

Our CNN Political Commentators Kayleigh McEnany, who supports Trump. Amanda Carpenter, Tara Setmayer, And Ross Douthat, and former Mitt Romney Presidential Campaign strategist Stuart Stevens.

Stuart, lets start with you. I mean, you thought this day would never come that Donald Trump would not get the nomination. What do you do now?

STUART STEVENS, FORMER ROMNEY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE CAMPAIGN STRATEGIST: Personally, do the same thing I did the day before, which is not support Donald Trump. I'm with the last two Republicans to be elected president. I think Donald Trump is unacceptable, uniquely unqualified to be president, and I won't support him.

COOPER: Would you vote for Clinton?

STEVENS: I don't know if still -- no. I won't vote for Hillary Clinton. I don't know if there will be a third party, depending on who that person was and what that person was offering. Certainly would look at it. A lot of us are just going a very disappointing choice. But you have one vote and you have to decide if its -- you can give it to someone you think is unqualified to be president. A lot of us think that, well, we can't cast that vote for Donald Trump.

COOPER: Amanda, I mean clearly you're Cruz supporter. With Donald Trump being the nominee, what do you do?

AMANDA CARPENTER, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR SENATOR TED CRUZ: I mean, I find this moment actually very liberating, because there is no reason, I mean, among other conservatives I talk to. There's no obligation to Donald Trump. There is no reason to defend him. There is no reason to vote for him. He never tried to court conservatives. He never want to win with conservatives. And so there's no obligation to work together on anything.

He wanted to win in a different way, of the different path. I think he is going to run to left and Hillary Clinton on many issues. Just today, he is saying that he is open to doing something on minimum wage. He is going to rewrite this map. And lot of conservatives, ideological ones don't want to be any part of it. And so let him continue on his own.

COOPER: Kayleigh, does that kind to tough worry you as a Trump supporter.

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND TRUMP SUPPORTER: It doesn't worry me, because I don't think this is a Grassroots mentality. In fact, I think it's a shame and a disappointment that people among them punditry, among some in the political class won't rally around this person, because the Grassroots has spoken commandingly. Donald Trump will have when he insist the most votes of any Republican nominee in political history. That is the big seat, and I think most voters are excited to go up to the polls for him. They're encouraged by what's happening and I think -- it ashamed that leader -- I mean our party can't do that.

CARPENTER: It is a split. Just out be quick, the real loss opportunity. We had all this populous movement, when the rise of the Tea Party in 2009 and that point the ideological conservatives were sort of leading it, has historic victories in 2010 and 2014 because there is principles underneath it. But yet, you know, the people were angry that not enough got done.

[21:20:02] And so now there's that split happening between ideological conservatives who care about liberty, and constitution, and all of those things.

And the rest of everybody else who really doesn't have time to keep up, and just are so desperate for change, they are going on with Donald Trump. And that sort of going a dangerous direction, will be wild and crazy, we'll see.

MCENANY: That split is really quickly to make, the point was there with Mitt Romney and with John McCain who are not the most conservatives of candidates but nevertheless conservatives failed rallied around them, because they were afraid of the specter of Obama.

COOPER: I mean, Tara, what about the idea of a third party? I mean it seems a very uphill climb for that.

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is. And you know, I'm one of those people along with Amanda, along with Stuart, that as a principled conservative who spent my entire adult life fighting for constitutional conservatism, for limited government, for individual liberty against a liberalism, against the policies of people like Hillary Clinton. This is a very dismaying disappointing moment for me that the primary electorate has basically had a midlife crisis and decide is like cash in the 401K and buy a Harley, and just say, the hell with it all. Go across America.

I mean that's like, you know, whatever happened happens. I mean, that's what we are doing here with Donald Trump. I mean, he does not have represent anything that conservatives represent. He barely represents anything Republicans represent. I don't know what Republican Party moves for but it looks like moving forward with someone like him at the head of it.

COOPER: Ross, you wrote today, this is a defeat for true conservatives?

ROSS DOUTHAT, OP-ED COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yeah, I meant a capital T, capital C. I was using the term to basically describe Ted Cruz's spirit, right which was then the Republican Party had erred by not being conservative enough.

COOPER: Right.

DOUTHAT: That needed to stand on principle to refuse to compromise, and so on and so forth. And it turned out that only about 30 percent of the Republican electorate agreed with that message. And the reality is that I think on one hand, its ideological conservatives have every reason not to support Donald Trump. There is every reason to think that the Republican Party led by Donald Trump would change in radical ways that would make ideological conservatism a dead latter in this country.

At the same time I think I just spot Patrick with conservatives. Need to do some real soul searching about how they came to the point where 40 to 50 percent of the Republican electorate looked at figures like Ted Cruz, like Marco Rubio and said these guys aren't getting the job done. Ideological conservatism isn't getting the job done. So that's the problem facing conservatives is that they in effect lost their own party. And they're right to stand on principle.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Patrick, just in terms to your reporting. Do you get a sense of how hard it would be for Trump to unify?

PATRICK HEALY, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YOK TIMES: Very hard. We spent the last 24 hours reaching out to about 70 Republican elected officials, donors, strategists, sort of asking where they are on Trump right now. So many of them took a pass on this about 20 would go on the record. You saw Mitch McConnell just came out at 7:00 p.m. almost 24 hours after the news, you know, that Donald Trump would be the presumptive nominee.

It is sort of a dribble, dribble, dribble. The reality is Donald Trump is the most, you know, unpredictable, and underestimated politician I've ever covered. And we just don't know how much been effort he is going to make to unite the party. He says that's really not what he's interested in or taking positions that go toward what Ross is talking about or that he thinks will somehow outflank Hillary in some interesting way. This is a guy, you know, is not a paint by numbers candidate and he is taking over a party that likes predictability, that likes someone who cares about orthodoxy and principles that the party is often thought for and sort of throwing it up in the air.

COOPER: Nomi, on the Democratic side are -- I mean like many Sanders supporters still getting hopes on the superdelegates changing their minds?

NOMIKI KONST, SANDERS SUPPORTER: Absolutely. I mean, if the rules are the rule. They set up his rules in the early 80's. Dupe (ph) set it up assistance to protect the establishment candidate that was after there some reforms in the late '70s after McGovern rose to influence the party, right, and lost across the board. But that was a much more conservative country. We have a much more liberal party state. We also have much more liberal country today and the map is more friendly to Senator Sanders in the general election so much so that he wins. He beats Donald Trump in all the swing states with Hillary does not.

COOPER: So that's why the superdelegates would switch because they believe in the general he can beat Donald Trump.

KONST: And then the numbers prove that across the board. She does not beat Donald Trump in every single scenario. She does not beat in all the swing states. That part of the map, that blue color, great lakes region part of the map. I think its really going to come down to trade in his election, especially that Hillary versus Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders has a lock down on that trade vote right now.

COOPER: Bakari do you see ...

DOUTHAT: One thing, Bernie Sanders does not started reaching out to superdelegates. He says he is not going to do that until mid June once seen those the number. So they're not making a really full court press yet.

COOPER: Bakari, I mean do you see any viable path for Senator Sanders?

BAKARI SELLERS, CLINTON SUPPORTER: Well, I don't. I mean I think that Senator Sanders has every right to stay in this race as long as he wants to. He's earned that right, he built a movement. Hillary Clinton herself didn't get out of the race in 2008 until June 7th.

[21:25:07] You know, but the fact of the matter is that Hillary Clinton is going to into the convention with the largest number of pledge delegates. You include Indiana, she's up 3.1 million votes.

Every argument that Senator Sanders in his campaign kind to came out with, whether or not it her versus Donald Trump, she wins 11 out of last 12 match-ups in RealClearPolitics average polling. So I do believe that she will continue to run this race in the primary. Bernie Sanders will win some states, there's no doubt about it, but there's a full court press on the Democratic Party. That's a full court press with Hillary Clinton to defeat Donald Trump. Because if she was not focused on Donald Trump, that would be malpractice. And what we started to see her staff up in and a lot of the swing states, spending money in a lot of the swing states, and moving forward with the general election campaign.

KONST: But I think what we are missing here is the Democratic Party is playing a game. They're playing a game because they want to beat the Republicans. And that's the game even playing. That's raise as much money as Republicans, lets find a candidate whose name ID who has the ability to organize troops across the country. But the reality is we're not winning down ballot, we're not winning the Senate, we're not winning Congress, we're not winning localities and the DNC is not giving money to state parties. And Bernie Sanders is bringing independents.

SELLERS: Well that's not true.

KONST: That is true. It was investigated by Politico.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: One at a time. Peter.

SELLERS: Not true.

PETER BEINART, CONTRIBUTOR, THE ATLANTIC: I think this is a reason for a lot of optimism actually for Democrats to do really well then ballot against Donald Trump, given that you're already start to see very effective ads against Republican candidates all across the country trying to answer for the terrible things Donald Trump said.

What -- the real question I think is not so much whether Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee. The question is going to be, how much does she go back to center in the general election, and as president? And how much of the DNA of -- the interesting is the Democratic Party has moved left but the class of people who staff Democratic administrations, especially on foreign policy and economic policy is still the same group of people who were substantially to the right of Democratic voters. I think that's the real drama to look at.

KONST: It don't reflect the electorate and if it comes down to trade, that's not necessarily a moderate vote. That's a populous vote. It's quite different. They're not left, they're not right, they're populous.

COOPER: We got a take a quick break. Coming out, is in the Electoral College obstacles and the advantages? Could Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton face in November cross the electoral map? John King breaks it down by the numbers of magical wall ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:31:28] COOPER: Tonight, we've been hearing from the two leading candidates for president, Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee, and Hillary Clinton, the Democratic frontrunner. Now, the last 24 hours, they've made a match-up between the two seemed all but certain. In other words, it's time to start focusing on the Electoral College.

Now, in November, the magic number will be 270 the majority needed to win the presidency. The electoral map will be the battle field. John King is here, breaking it down for us at the Magic Wall.

So, we've got new poll last night, John that shows Hillary Clinton with a 13 point national lead over Trump. What's behind the early strength in a general election match-up?

JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: In a word or two words, Anderson, the Obama coalition. This is the map from 2012 of the Obama-Romney race. As we speak tonight, let's be clear, as we speak tonight, long way, 187 days in November. And as we speak tonight, Hillary Clinton is holding the Obama coalition and then some.

Let me show you some numbers. The numbers on the left, Hillary Clinton in our new poll, the numbers on the right, Barack Obama on Election Day 2012. Among men, she's doing a little better than Obama, among women, she's doing a little better than the presidency on Election Day in 2012.

Among independents, better, among white voters a little better, in the suburbs a little better, even among nonwhite voters. Hillary Clinton at the moment doing a little better than President Obama on Election Day 2012.

So, she enters the general election thinking if I can keep this together, I can win.

COOPER: For Trump, there were some encouraging numbers on with the economy?

KING: Yes. If you look at these numbers, Anderson, a demographic ditch if you will Donald Trump needs to repair during the election. But, there are some good numbers for Donald Trump. Let's move over to Michigan and to look at. And Donald Trump says, he's going to create like the Reagan Democrats back in the '80s, Trump Democrats today.

And look at this, he number one issue ion the election, the economy. Trump has a slightly the 5 point lead nationally. But, look at this, a big 20 plus point lead over Hillary Clinton when it comes to who best to handle the economy in the mid west.

Donald Trump says his campaign will turn a lot of mid western states that traditionally have been blue like Pennsylvania, like Michigan, perhaps, out into even Wisconsin and Minnesota. Trump says he's going to start here, again, no guarantee. But our data says on the economy, he's got a chance.

COOPER: So, point that out for us. I mean, how would Trump beginning the Roosevelt strategy might change the traditional presidential map?

KING: So, let's flip maps to take a look at it again. This is the Obama-Romney map. But, let's do it from a different susceptive, perspective.

Donald Trump says, I'll change Pennsylvania. Democrats don't think he will, but look at -- let's do it for the sake of argument. He says, he can change Ohio. We just showed you Michigan, he wants to, again, create Trump Democrats in this blue collar areas.

If Donald Trump did those three, a heavy lift. But, I think that those three, then he says, Anderson, Florida is my second home. Well, under that scenario change, just those four states, Donald Trump is the next president of the United States even if let's say Pennsylvania, the most blue of this states stays there, and stays blue under this scenario, Trump changes Ohio, Michigan, and Florida. We're tied at 269.

I'm not saying it will play out that way, but this gives you a reminder that, yes, Hillary Clinton enters with an advantage. But, if Donald Trump can do some business across the Roosevelt, he can make this a very compatible election.

COOPER: I mean, there is some rumbling about a conservative third party run to give people that don't want to vote for Clinton, if I cancel them in Trump a home. How would that change the map if it actually materializes?

KING: The Clinton campaign is studying this question very closely. Imagine a conservative who runs so that if you don't want Trump, as you said, you can't vote for Clinton, where might that play out?

Well, what about the State of Georgia? Imagine a lot of conservative state home and Hillary Clinton, if you get African-Americans turn out in big numbers.

Obama campaign thought maybe they could do this in 2012. What if Hillary Clinton could turn Georgia Blue? In other place to look at as possibly, Mississippi. And one they're looking at closely is Arizona.

Again, if a conservative run took 2, 3, 4, 5 percent, or more away from Donald Trump, she could get the Latino turn out, Hillary Clinton thinks I'll take a look in Arizona. And if that guarantee, again, no. But, it just tells you heading in this an unorthodox year with so many unpredictable elements between now and November including the possibility of that third party candidacy, including how Trump can play out in traditionally blue areas.

[21:35:13] A lot of studying going on the campaign. So, I think the map is going to be different this year, because this year is very different. Anderson.

COOPER: Yeah. That's for sure. John King, John thanks very much.

Back with the panel. Ross, I mean Donald Trump is saying that he thinks he turn some traditional blue states are red. New York, Pennsylvania is that really feasible?

DOUTHAT: Probably not with the obvious caveat that, you know, I was sitting here four weeks ago saying that Ted Cruz had a good chance to win contested convention.

(CROSSTALK)

DOUTHAT: But we need to imply that caveat before all analysis for the next six months. But the reality is it, look if you just took Trump's positioning on the issues which is clearly very flexible, he is going to move to the center on economic issues, to run to Hillary's left on some economic issues. You could sketch out the scenario where he could win states like Pennsylvania and Michigan.

CARPENTER: That's a huge.

DOUTHAT: The problem for Trump though is Trump. Right, that in order to do that, he would need to win a lot of suburban women. He would need to win as many Hispanics as Mitt Romney did or more. He would need to win a few black voters. Just a few and that's where the fact he is Donald Trump is going to be a big problem that's where Hillary is going to end up running I assumed just on just heavily on the idea that this guy is a bigot that can't be trusted.

COOPER: Stuart, I mean the Trump campaign also hopes to reignite the so-called Reagan democrats who at one point that turned states like Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Ohio red. Based on how he has done in primaries, I mean it could the industrial Midwest end up stronghold for him?

STEVENS: No. That world doesn't exist any more. Two quick numbers. In 1980 Ronald Reagan won 57 percent of white vote won a sweeping landslide of 44 states. In 2012, Mitt Romney won 59 percent of the white vote and won 24 states. The world has changed. America has changed. There's this Mitt out there that, you know, I call it the lost tribes of the Amazon Theory. That if Republican can just sort of they paddle up far enough up the Amazon and beat the drum loudly enough, that this missing white voters they'll come to the river and vote for him. It's just not there.

Romney gets 13 percent of non white vote. To win this race, you're going to have to get at least north of 25 percent under any normal, reasonable turnout scenarios that have occurred. What you're facing is just a very difficult national map. The Democrats start with about 240 electoral votes. One thing just to think about here, Anderson. 1988 was the last night that Republicans were able to celebrate winning the presidency on election night. I have done the last five of these, it's very, very difficult. And he shrinking the party by turning off women and by turning off even Republican Hispanics.

COOPER: I want to get Kayleigh's thought on that.

MCENANY: Yeah. No. I don't thinks at all. In fact I think Stuart assuming neglected all the vulnerabilities that Hillary Clinton. First of all she set a record last night in Indiana exit polls, 53 percent of Democratic voters found her honest and trustworthy. The converse of that, meaning upwards of 40 something percent don't think she's honest and trustworthy. That's a very big deal.

She hasn't been tested on the email situation which by the way we learn today who's the further Romanian hackered claimed that he hacked into her emails, if that's the case of National Security was actually -- it was actually put at risk because of her e-mail, not theoretically, that's a very big deal, she's got that, she's unpopular among woman. She's only won millennials in 26 of the 28 states that have been in exit poll. There are host of vulnerabilities. She had none of them tested Bernie Sanders would have been a far stronger contender, so I'm thrilled by that.

COOPER: OK Tara, and we got to go.

SETMAYER: Yeah. Well all those -- all those things may be true, but Donald Trump's negatives are much higher than Hillary Clinton's. Those millennials are not voting for Donald Trump. They will coalesce behind Hillary Clinton. And in New York I'll just give an example really quickly, in New York, 1.2, 1.4 million Democrats voted between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. 525,000 voted for Donald Trump. So he's never winning somewhere like New York that's a foul.

COOPER: All right. We got more from the panel ahead. I also just want to get the panel's take on the future of the "Never Trump Movement". What happens now? Do they have a future? Details, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:43:11] COOPER: Well Donald Trump is the last one standing in the Republican field. And the start of the race with Super-Size Wolf Blitzer asked Trump if he is surprised as many are.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Did you ever think almost a year ago it was June in this building, you were going down that escalator that you would be the presumptive Republican presidential nominee?

TRUMP: Well, I hoped. I mean, look I ...

BLITZER: Did you really hope? Did you, was that just?

TRUMP: Yeah, I did. I mean you had 17 people, very capable people. I heard a lot of pundits were saying this was the single greatest group of talent ever assembled for either party in terms of a group. It was also t largest group. So I joined somewhat after I heard that statement. And I'm saying what I am doing. I mean I'm hearing these people ...

BLITZER: Did you really think you could win?

TRUMP: I guess, otherwise I don't think I would have done it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Stuart, what do you think this race is going to look like assuming its Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump? I mean is there a race you can compare it to?

STEVENS: Well, I think Donald Trump is going to get his brains beat out. So, I guess you would look at it to the Goldwater. But, you know, Goldwater was a real ideological movement, he was conservative and you could make a case he paved the way for Reagan victories. Donald Trump is a cultic (ph) personality, he is running as some said sort of a strong man character, that's more like South America. So, I really don't know if there's a parallel for it.

What is most remarkable to me, is yes, Donald Trump has won this nomination which is he should be given credit for that, it's a real achievement. Few people win nominations and it's much more difficult than anyone realizes unless you have been through the process. But at the same time he is emerging from this with historically high negatives, after all the publicity has only 28 percent of the public have a favorable view of him.

[21:45:03] And, what we were saying about opportunities afforded say by those who consider Hillary Clinton dishonest, 37 percent of the public think she's dishonest and not trustworthy. The 27 percent think that about Donald Trump.

COOPER: Patrick ...

STEVENSS: That's always a huge wasted opportunity for Republicans.

COOPER: In terms of, I mean Ted Cruz had a much more into sort of data operation, assuming Hillary Clinton does as well, they're probably doing already a lot of opposition research against Trump. Does Donald Trump have that organization?

HEALY: No, not at all. And he could behoove himself by reaching out his old friend Ted and trying to make some kind of a deal to bring all of that data element. And Ted Cruz built the delegate operation, a voter ID operation, he had a real ground game in some of the states. And, Donald Trump has been, you know, sort of flying by the seat sort of clips. I mean he raise this clips, he sees poll numbers, you know, he sees movement that he can do, but he also has, look, he has an incredible communication style and ability to get attention. And the parallel that you ask sort about, I can see some parallel in the Hillary Clinton-Rudy Giuliani race when he was running at first for Senate in 2000.

Rudy Giuliani was able to sort of continually embarrass Hillary Clinton, sort of push her into a corner in by moving into New York about having to defend her husband's policies, got her sort of comfortable, so it made it possible sort of get under her skin. And I think that in a way Donald Trump is going to be relying a great deal on his own sort of performance and communication skills more than on some incredibly sophisticated data operation, maybe just relying on the RNC.

COOPER: Well also, I mean Peter, there's no evidence that he is going to sort of adjust the way he does debates and he's going to start reading a lot of policy papers. I mean he seems in the Wolf interview he says he feels pretty confident about his debating skills now.

BEINART: Yeah. Look, Donald Trump can't all of a sudden become a policy want, he doesn't know enough. I mean he doesn't know really basic stuff. Right. And when he look, when he tries to read the speeches, he looks very stiff. So, I don't think there is some real Donald Trump 2.0. I mean, yeah, he can move policies to the left, but he is never going to be able to speak with much authority. You can't learn this stuff in a few days like that. So he is going to have to be who he is.

COOPER: And yes. And if he beat all those people who did know what the policy papers and ...

MCENANY: Exactly.

CARPENTER: Because there's a formula to it. So, here is what I predict against he does against Hillary Clinton and we're seeing previews of this already. He is going to feed all the hard policy questions that cause the problem to Hillary Clinton, minimum wage, go ahead and have it. Climate change, go ahead and have it. He is going to run on this weird cultural build the wild, identity politics, male versus female, culture war type issues which is of the culture were of the past with abortion and things like this same-sex marriage, it is a new cultural front that he is fighting that we don't understand yet. He is going to wait to answer.

SELLERS: That's also what gives Hillary Clinton the advantage in this race with the poll.

CARPENTER: Is she plays ball at it?

SELLERS: But the fact of the matter is and what Stuart brought up was a very good point. First of all Regain Democrats are either had to passed along or they're Republicans now. So this whole dynamic of somehow going into the rest about pulling out ...

COOPER: I going to get a break in. I'm sorry we are out of time.

SELLERS: Oh, those time along.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Bernie Sanders campaigning in Kentucky after winning in Indiana, campaign says delegate math could be on their side, I'll speak with Sanders' campaign manager right. Coming up, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:52:16] COOPER: Well Bernie Sanders has vowed to stay in the race all the way to the Philadelphia convention. Earlier today, Secretary Clinton told me she understands why he's not giving up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know there are still some contests ahead and I respect Senator Sanders and whatever choices he make and I really -- I have a lot of empathy about this, Anderson. You know, I ran to the very end in 2008.

COOPER: You've been there. And you know wt it feels like.

CLINTON: And I won nine out of the last 12 contests. People forget that. I won Indiana. I won West Virginia. I won a lot of states. But I couldn't close the gap in pledged delegates. And the gap between me and Senator Sanders is far wider than it was between me and Senator Obama.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Joining me now is Sanders campaign Manager Jeff Weaver. Jeff, what is the argument to superdelegates before the convention, at the convention?

JEFF WEAVER, BERNIE SANDERS' CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Well, the argument, Anderson in this, again, we're going to go forward, and let the voters vote, you know, if we can get the margin down between Secretary Clinton and Senator Sanders, the argument is the polling has been consistent for months now, Bernie Sanders is a much stronger candidate against Donald Trump than is Secretary Clinton. He's going to have momentum going into the convention. The positions that he holds are going to be popular with a much broader base of people. He does very, very well with independents as you know.

In open primaries, we've seen empirically that he gets 65, 70 percent of independents against Secretary Clinton. So he has a broad base of support and he's the one who is going to be able not only be able to keep the White House, but help elect Democrats up and down the ballot.

COOPER: She's got a lead of some I guess 300 pledged delegates right now. How close do you think you need to get in terms of pledged delegates in order to help the argument with the superdelegates?

WEAVER: Well, we're going to have see how we go Anderson. And as, you know, California is one of those states. And there's 475 pledged delegates in California. As you can -- you can eat substantially into that lead just in California alone with a strong performance. Bernie Sanders is doing very well in polling in California and there's a number of states before that where he's going to do very well.

Next week is West Virginia where he seems to be doing very well. So there is, is going to be so many states going forward that, you know, we'll see how close we get, but he's going to enter the convention with a big head of steam coming in there.

COOPER: Well, I guess I mean what worries you more if President Hillary Clinton or President Donald Trump, and if it's Trump, are you at all concerned that the longer the Democratic primary drags on, Trump can get stronger because he's already trying to run the general.

WEAVER: Trump is call a disaster for the country Anderson, there's no doubt about that. Let's be clear. Hillary Clinton is far superior to Donald Trump in every way conceivable. But let me say this, you know, this is a myth that this long primaries somehow hurt the general election nominee.

[21:55:03] You know, I think 2008 really put that old myth aside when it went all the way to the end as the secretary said in the clip you ran. And Barack Obama running incredibly strong a general election campaign and won handily even though it had done all over to the end.

This campaign on the Democratic side, unlike the food fight and name calling that we saw on the other side, this campaign on the Democratic side has been about issues. It is important between now and the end of the process for issues that are important to Democratic voters that they be discussed and debated.

So, if we can keep the minimum wage in the news, you know, it should be $12 that the secretary wants or $15 that Senator Sanders wants, you know, let's talk about healthcare, let's talk about education, but at least we're talking about -- these are the important issues facing the American people.

If it's one seeks it to be one-on-one the way Trump operates, all those issues are going to be pushed off the table because as we've seen in the primary process, you know, the business imperative on the media side really is going to put Donald Trump on TV all the time saying his outrageous stuff.

COOPER: All right. Jeff Weaver, it's always good to have you on. Jeff, thank you very much. I Appreciate it.

We'll be right back with more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COPPER: If you missed our special about the raid that killed Osama Bin Laden, we are re-airing it this Friday, there details about the raid that have been kept secret for five years. Peter Bergen speaks with President Obama and others who were key in the decision-making. "We got him, President Obama, Bin Laden and the Future of the War on Terror" airs Friday on "360" here on CNN.

That does it for us. Thanks very much for watching. CNN Tonight with Don Lemon starts now.

[22:00:06] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Here is the one thing that you can say for sure about this campaign, you ain't seen nothing yet.

This is CNN TONIGHT. I am Don Lemon.