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Presidential Race Heats Up; Bill Clinton in Hot Water; Terror Arrests. Aired 15-15:30p ET

Aired April 8, 2016 - 15:00   ET



ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me on this Friday.

We do have breaking news for you. Two men allegedly involved in two of Europe's most horrific terror attacks have just been captured alive. Any minute now, we will take a news conference that will begin with Belgian authorities speaking on what has happened here.

Here's what we know at this moment. We will show you a picture here. And it's one of these men, Mohamed Abrini, has just been arrested. These pictures show Abrini at a gas station days before the Paris terrorist attacks with the now captured Salah Abdeslam.

Abrini's arrest means the last named Paris attack suspect is no longer at large. Belgian media, meantime, is reporting this man here, the light jacket and the black hat, this person they have been looking for since this happened, they believe that he is, in fact, Abrini, although CNN has yet to confirm this. This is what we're hearing from Belgium.

What we can confirm is this man, Naim al Hamed, also known as Osama Krayem, also was arrested today, had a -- quote, unquote -- "operational role" in the attacks in Brussels.

So joining me now, Nic Robertson, CNN international diplomatic editor, Jim Sciutto, CNN chief national security correspondent, and Art Roderick, CNN law enforcement analyst and former assistant director for the U.S. Marshals Office.

Gentlemen, welcome to all of you.

And just, Jim Sciutto, to you first with regard to these two captures, what do we know about these two men?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: We know that both of them are central to two of the deadliest attacks in Europe in history, deadliest terror attacks in history.

Let's start with Mohamed Abrini. He has multiple ties to the Paris attacks. He drove Salah Abdeslam to Paris two days before. He used a car that was used in those attacks on that bloody night and he drove Abdeslam out of Paris after the attacks.

In addition to that, he went into an apartment where two of the terrorists who struck that night in Paris had stayed. So he has multiple ties very central to that plot. Osama Krayem believed tied operationally to the Brussels attack, how did they make this connection? Because he met in a subway station not long before the deadly subway bombing in Brussels, different station, but in the subway, establishing that connection there.

They're both believed to be part of the same cell, the same cell that carried out both of these attacks, so both of them of tremendous intelligence value if they can get any information out of them. And I'll tell you, Brooke, that's going to be a real focus now is trying to learn what they don't know about this cell, how big -- how much of the network is still out there. Are there any attacks in the works?

Whether or not he will give that information, they will give that information, that's another question. But that will be a real focus now, preventing further attacks by the same cell.

BALDWIN: So, on that note, Nic Robertson, let me just bring you in. And feel free to chime in on any more you know about these two, these two men who have been captured and their roles, but how will law enforcement determine who's still out there?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: The question is going to be one of the key ways. We do know a little more about Krayem.

He was in Syria. He made his way in late September, early October, to Brussels. He did what two of the other Paris attackers did. He went through Greece. He posed as a migrant, pitching up on one of the islands where all the migrants were arriving. Made his way with the migrants to a migrant center in Germany. Somebody sends him about 600 euros, about 600 U.S. dollars, sends him that money.

Then Salah Abdeslam or another drives from Brussels to that migrant center and picks him up. So, we're seeing a pattern emerge here of just how much this Paris and Brussels terror attack cell was relying on hiding their operatives among migrants, that Krayem had been to Syria, so had training there. We don't know the full details of what his sort of speciality and role might have been, this operational role in the Brussels attack.

But clearly having these three people now, Salah Abdeslam as well as these two arrested today that were involved in that attack, both attacks, will give the authorities the chance to try to at least get some information out of them individually. They can play that off against each other. They can play the three of them off against each other.


It gives them more opportunities to round up more of the network. But, of course, a concern will be the same, as it was after Salah Abdeslam was arrested and came to be true, that ISIS remnants will try potentially to push other attacks in the coming days.

BALDWIN: As I have been listening to you, I have been thinking the same thing. We were sitting here on a Friday talking about the big capture of Salah Abdeslam, and then the Tuesday, the following Tuesday was the Brussels attacks at the subway station and the airport.

Art, to Nic's point about maybe using these two against one another, trying to get information, trying to make sure that they are cooperative and that they will talk, how do law enforcement get them to do that?

ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I mean, they are -- Nic is right, they are going to play each other off.

But the one thing you want to do, when you look at criminal organizations, you look at terrorist organizations, they operate very similarly. You want to disrupt and dismantle these types of And Organizations. As you recall, back when Abdeslam was arrested, law enforcement came out over in Belgium and they really didn't know who they had. It took them a little while to figure out, oh, my gosh, we have Abdeslam here.

This particular arrest that occurred today, these two arrests, very big day for security forces and law enforcement in Belgium. But it appears to me that that they're getting better intel, they're getting better information. And if you look over the last three weeks as to what has occurred since the Abdeslam arrest, you have had multiple raids, you have had multiple arrests, and I'm sure they have gathered tons of intel from computers and human intel from informants that led to this arrest today, because it sounds like to me that they actually knew who they had when they arrested these two individuals, which means they're not only disrupting, but it appears they're in the process of dismantling this particular terrorist cell.

BALDWIN: Let's hope so.

Art Roderick, thank you. Jim Sciutto, Nic Robertson, appreciate you as well. So there's that on terror.

Let's turn to politics. As I speak, there are dueling rallies happening between the two Democratic candidates for president. There, you see Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton. Bernie Sanders holding a rally in Brooklyn outside of the home where he grew up. And Secretary Clinton speaking now in Buffalo, New York. All of this ahead of the all-important CNN debate in Brooklyn on April 14.

Let's just listen in.


HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So, I know that you have got to be vigilant, you have got to be prepared and you have to work with other people. You have to work with other nations.

You have got to bring everybody in our country together. I am absolutely devoted to that. And I took part in probably the most significant counterterrorism we have ever taken, and that is the decision to go after bin Laden and...


H. CLINTON: I was in that small group advising the president, and he heard us all out. I advised him to go forward. But, ultimately, it is the president's choice.

And I was very grateful that he chose to go forward and to bring bin Laden to justice and to make it clear...



SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (VT-I), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: ... what this country is about. The women's movement. Let us not forget, 100 years ago, women did not have the right to vote, could not get the education they wanted, could not get the jobs they wanted.

Women and their male allies stood up, fought back and said that women will not be second-class citizens.


SANDERS: Twenty years ago or 10 years ago, if we stood here and people said that gay marriage would be legal in 50 states in this country, few would have believed that.


SANDERS: But as a result of the struggles of the gay community and their straight allies, we made that happen.


SANDERS: If we were here five years ago and somebody said to me, Bernie, you know, this $7.25-an-hour minimum wage is a starvation wage, we're going to raise that wage to 15 bucks an hour, people would have thought that anyone who said that five years ago was crazy. But you know what happened? Workers in the fast-food industry had the guts to go out on strike to fight for their rights.


BALDWIN: We will have more on the Democrats in a moment, but to the Republicans now.

Today, Donald Trump's new convention manager, Paul Manafort, talked exclusively to CNN. I said convention. You heard me, not campaign manager, because that is Manafort's purpose, to get Trump a victory at the Republican Convention in Cleveland in July.


And Manafort is confident his work will be done beforehand, because he says Trump will reach the 1,237 delegates he needs to guarantee the nomination.

But in order to do that, Trump has to get 59 percent of the delegates remaining. Manafort, speaking to Chris Cuomo, seemed unfazed by the challenge.


PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CONVENTION MANAGER: We're not talking about winning 30 votes in New York or whatever it was in Utah. We're talking about winning, you know, over 80 votes in one day in New York. That sets a lot of ships straight, as an example.

And there's Pennsylvania, there's New Jersey, there's Maryland, there's Connecticut. These are his wheelhouse. And, yes, California's going to be important. But by the time we get to California, the momentum is going to be very clear and Ted Cruz's path to victory is going to be in shambles.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, he's using -- Cruz is using momentum right now to his favor, right? You have to win the delegates. You also have to keep them.

Put up the graphic of what's been happening lately. Colorado, Cruz has gone back, he's picked up six delegates. You know what he's doing in Arizona. He's trying to recruit his own pro-Cruz delegates. Smart thinking, obviously. You can respect them.

Louisiana, he is now going after Rubio's pledged delegates. And a lot of the concern about this, to our understanding, is what fueled bringing you in, this guy's beating us at the game. Is that true?

MANAFORT: No, I mean, you have got to understand what the game is. If the game is a second, third or fourth ballot, then what he's doing is clever.

But if there's only one ballot, what he's doing is meaningless, because these stolen delegates, as he calls them, some of whom we're going to be able to do as well in the next couple of weeks, these stolen delegates, they still have to vote for Trump on the first ballot. And if it's clear in June that Trump is over the 1,237, these are Republicans. They're not going to vote to kill their party.

They're going to come behind and maybe Cruz will have a chance on the convention floor to give a speech. And but they're going to be -- the convention is going to be united.


BALDWIN: All right, let me bring in Sara Murray. She co-wrote this phenomenal in-depth piece, CNN Politics, and it's called "Inside Donald Trump's Delegate Strategy."



BALDWIN: Nice to see you not in the middle of some crazy crowd out and about.

MURRAY: Great to be here.

BALDWIN: Hearing Manafort talking to Chris, what do you think about -- what about him really drew Trump do you think and then what else is he doing?

MURRAY: I think Trump was hearing from people that he needed someone who knows this process.

He needs someone who is seasoned, and they have some friends in common who sort of brought them together. The interesting thing is, when you hear him talk, yes, he is the convention manager, he is trying to get Trump to win when it comes to the convention. But he wants to get the delegates you need beforehand, which means that he's not just going to be involved behind the scenes at some of these state conventions we're seeing.

He's not going to be just involved in D.C. outreach. He's going to be involved in the strategy in the upcoming states. That's what we have seen by them strapping the schedule to go out to Colorado, scrapping the plan to go to California, and instead hunkering down in New York.

The idea that he's just a convention manager and that he's just playing behind the scenes with delegates...

BALDWIN: It's more than that.

MURRAY: ... I think it kind of underestimates the role he is going to play, especially if he does manage to build this relationship with Trump and Trump trusts him to make decisions and kind of build his own empire within the campaign.

BALDWIN: Well, he said it himself, that Trump, ultimately, he's his boss, right? But how does this work with the campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, then with this convention manager and then with Mr. Trump?

MURRAY: This is what's really interesting is, until now, basically everything in the campaign went through Corey and Corey went to Trump.


MURRAY: So to have another operative who's reporting directly to Trump is significant. It is a significant shift. Right now, essentially, Trump trusted Corey.

And now I think this is going to be the challenge. This is why we have seen sort of the butting of heads between Corey Lewandowski, the campaign manager, and Paul Manafort, so far because Corey is going to have to at least at a minimum share power in a way he hasn't before and that power could spread even further if Paul Manafort does bring in new seasoned operatives to sort of help him with the clinching of the rest of these delegates.

And that's kind of what we're waiting to see. The campaign says more announcements will be coming in the next few weeks. We will see just how big Donald Trump lets him kind of build this empire within the campaign.

BALDWIN: A convention manager, that is where we are.

Sara Murray, thank you so much.

MURRAY: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And in just four days, Anderson Cooper will moderate a CNN town hall with Donald Trump and his family. That's Tuesday night at 9:00 right here on CNN.

Coming up next, all apologies?


BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did something yesterday in Philadelphia I almost want to apologize for.


BALDWIN: Bill Clinton back on the campaign trail today after being interrupted on stage, leading with a pretty heated exchange with supporters of Black Lives Matter all with regard to his crime bill from 1994. We will discuss what he said today next.



BALDWIN: Just one day after clashing with Black Lives Matter protesters at a rally in Philadelphia, former President Bill Clinton is speaking out now about how perhaps his exchange went or maybe not so well.


B. CLINTON: I like and believe in protests.

I would be a hypocrite if I didn't because I engaged in some when I was a kid. But I never thought I should drown anybody else out, and I confess maybe it's just a sign of old age, but it bothers me now when that happens.

So I did something yesterday in Philadelphia I almost want to apologize for, but I want to use it as an example of the danger threatening our country.

We all have different experiences. We cannot learn anything unless we listen. And we are all, just as I was yesterday, vulnerable to getting to some point where somebody says something, I don't want to listen to this anymore.



BALDWIN: Here's a reminder of what happened at the rally when protesters heckled President Clinton about that crime bill from 1994 he signed into law. They also took issue with a speech two years later in which Hillary Clinton referred to some youthful offenders as super predators.


B. CLINTON: Oh, now wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Now you're screaming. So let's do another one. I don't know how you would characterize the gang leaders who got 13-year-old kids hopped up on crack and sent them out into the street to murder other African- American children. Maybe you thought they were good citizens.

She didn't. She didn't. You are defending the people who killed the lives you say matter.


BALDWIN: Let's chat.

I'm joined now with CNN political commentator Marc Lamont Hill and Heather Mac Donald, a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute. She's also the author of "Are Cops Racist?"

So, welcome to both you.

HEATHER MAC DONALD, Manhattan Institute: Thank you.


BALDWIN: Marc, to you first. Do you think President Clinton should apologize?

HILL: Well, apologies imply a level of contrition, and if he doesn't feel he did anything for which to apologize, I don't want him to be dishonest.

I do think he was wrong though. I think the way he engaged the protesters yesterday was inappropriate. I think the fact he marshaled in evidence that was simply inaccurate and empirically unverifiable -- in fact it's been contradicted -- I think is troublesome.

And the fact that he essentially did another slight of hand here where he comes in and makes us think somehow now the protesters are the problem and that they're endorsing the killing of 13-year-old kids or calling them good citizens. None of that was the truth.

The truth is, Hillary Clinton made a bad choice based on bad -- and Bill Clinton signed bad legislation and now they have to be accountable for it.

BALDWIN: And, Heather, on the flip side, you believe Bill Clinton wasn't wrong, right? MAC DONALD: I think the most radical thing he said yesterday was to

point out it was the African-American community who asked him to sign the 1994 crime control bill because their kids were getting shot by gangs and 13-year-olds were planning for their funerals.

There is a need to recognize the truth that there are many people within the inner-city community who support the police, who want the criminals off the streets and that the policing revolution of the 1990s coupled with longer sentences for violent felons has saved over 100,000 black lives since 1994, had the crime levels been at their same rates, and that it is overwhelmingly...


HILL: Can I ask you a question about...

MAC DONALD: Sure, Marc.

HILL: Can I ask you a question about that? On what basis do you say that that was responsible for the drop? I understand that there was a drop, but on what scientific basis do you make that claim?

MAC DONALD: Because nothing else changed radically to explain why crime went down.


MAC DONALD: There was a policing revolution that began in New York City where the police started targeting hot spots, using data obsessively, and holding commanders accountable. Nothing else changed in New York.

Our poverty leaves remained the same. Drug use remained the same. Income inequality remained the same. And yet we experienced an 85 percent drop in felony crime, the largest in the country and the most sustained.

BALDWIN: Let me jump in because I have other numbers. Hang on.


BALDWIN: Hang on, hang on, hang on.


BALDWIN: Hang on, hang on. I promise I will get there, but just to another point on numbers.

An equal justice attorney says America's prison population jumped from 300,000 to 2.3 million over the past four decades and that President Clinton would have had, as president, a role in this.

So, Heather, wouldn't the protesters be justified in calling out Bill Clinton?

MAC DONALD: No, they wouldn't. Prison remains a lifetime achievement award for persistence in criminal offending.

Only 3 percent of violent crimes and property crimes actually end up with the offender in prison. A third of convicted felons end up in prison. Most are given community sentences or jail time.

You have to work very hard to get in prison. The overwhelming number of people in prison today are there for violent crimes, and that is the people we need to get off the streets that are preying on innocent, hardworking, the majority of people in minority communities, who just want to enjoy the same freedom from fear as everybody else in the country enjoys.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Marc.

HILL: Can I respond to some of the stuff?

OK, so, first, you marshaled in evidence from New York to speak to a national number, which is imprecise. The other thing is, if you look at other places like California, Michigan, other states in the '80s and '90s that did not use the same policing tactics as New York did, the numbers went down as well, so it's not true to say it's purely that.

The other piece of what you said is that there's no other factor that contributed to the drop in crime. Again, that is empirically untrue. One of the major contributors based on every criminological study, every sociologist of crime that has talked about this for the 10 years has pointed out things likes the drop in lead.


Lead paint, leaded gasoline, these are things that affected a generation of people that made those so-called super predators you're talking about. That was gone by the time the crime bill was introduced. What you saw was a generation of people who were not engaged in the same kind of structural problem.

Another thing that has affected this was the economy and access to jobs during the '90s and early 2000s. That also led to an drop in crime. To suggest that aggressive policing fixes this is not the point. But beyond that, what you always make is a straw argument. Nobody on the left is suggesting that we want crime. Nobody on the left, nobody who's criticizing the Clintons is suggesting people in the black community didn't want some form of redress to the problems that were happening.

But to overpolice, to overcriminalize and to create three strikes legislation and a crime bill that overcriminalized people was not the solution. There are many more things like community-based policing, like access to jobs, like early childhood education, like Head Start programs, like access to health care, food, clothing, and shelter, all that stuff actually makes crime go down too, not just heavily policing people and not just overincarcerating people.

When the Clintons signed this bill, you're right. Black people asked for it and black people endorsed it. The Congressional Black Caucus was also on board. But just because a bunch of black people do it doesn't make it right. The black people were wrong, the Clintons was wrong and Hillary was wise to say she was wrong about this.

Bill Clinton now is giving the ultimate bad boyfriend apology by saying, yes, I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry. I'm sorry your feelings were hurt. I'm sorry you misunderstood what I said. But I'm not really wrong. But I will say sorry anyway. That's why people are frustrated today.

BALDWIN: All right, Heather, we listened to Marc on all those different points. I want you to respond to all that.

MAC DONALD: Well, crime continued to drop during the 2008 recession.

Crime actually has very little to do with economic conditions. It was spiraling up in the 1960s as our economy was booming at probably one of its most vigorous rates. Crime is a problem overwhelmingly of family breakdown.

And until we can rebuild the family, the police are the second best defense. And the fact is, is that New York's crime rate dropped twice as much as anyplace else. And, of course, the police have to behave constitutionally, they have to behave courteously. They have to treat everybody with respect.

But I cannot go to a police community meeting in poor neighborhoods, whether it's in Central Brooklyn or South Central Los Angeles, where I don't hear those law-abiding people say, I want more policing, I want the dealers off the corners. We arrest them and they're back the next day. I want the kids off my stoop who are smoking pot. I'm scared to go down and get my mail because of the people loitering and trespassing there.

Those are the voices that are not heard in the public debate. And I think part of Bill Clinton's frustration yesterday was the sense that, well, of course, black people want lowered crime, but where are the protests when dozens of children are gunned down in drive-by shootings?

I don't think many people know the name of Marcus Johnson, a 6-year- old who was shot in a drive-by in March of last year as protesters were convening in Ferguson, demanding the resignation of the entire department. Nobody knows the names of the three children under the age of 5 who were killed in drive-bys in Cleveland in September.

There needs to be some balance. Yes, of course, let's bring attention to any police abuses. But if we could spend one-tenth of that attention talking about how to bring crime down in inner-city neighborhoods above all by rebuilding the family, the discussion about policing is going to go nowhere.

HILL: Again, this stuff isn't really true. I mean, again...

BALDWIN: Final word, Marc.

HILL: ... you say there was no other factor. There were other factors in New York besides intensified policing, like the development of CompStat, which was an information-based program which allowed police to police more effectively.


MAC DONALD: Absolutely. I agree.

HILL: No, but you said there was no other factor. I'm glad you're now agreeing with the point...


MAC DONALD: That's the policing revolution that spread nationwide.


BALDWIN: Go ahead, Marc.

HILL: Right. But the crime bill wasn't about -- but the crime bill wasn't about a policing revolution of information. It was a policing revolution of aggressive policing, overincarceration, draconian sentencing and racially disparate treatment of different groups.

That was the issue here. And, yes, we should address black people who kill black people. That's not the point. But we're not out here protesting black people who kill black people all the time, because I don't have the same expectations for the same Bloods and Crips as I do for police.

I expect police to not shoot me. I expect police to not be the judge, jury and executioner on an open street. And I expect politicians to engage in humane public policy making, and that's not what has happened and that's where Hillary Clinton must be responsible.

And to once again not -- to avoid responsibility and make it look like any black person that criticizes her somehow doesn't care about safety or crime in the community is another irresponsible and dishonest move by the Clintons. And that's what I find so profoundly interesting, but thank you for your time.


MAC DONALD: Can I just add one thing quickly, Brooke?

BALDWIN: Quickly, quickly, Heather.


MAC DONALD: The representation of blacks in prison is due to crime rates. There is not disparate treatment in the criminal justice system.

The police go where the crime is. They wish they could not need to go in those neighborhoods. But they're there to save lives, not to oppress people.

BALDWIN: Heather Mac Donald and Marc Lamont Hill...


HILL: That's simply -- that's simply not true.

BALDWIN: We have to leave it.