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Paris Terror Attack Suspect Salah Abdeslam Arrested; Conservatives plot to Stop Trump; Interview with Michael Dukakis. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired March 18, 2016 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[13:30:00] CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think there are a lot of concerns. Obviously this is a moment -- you just heard the Belgium's. It is an important moment for people to feel safer knowing this man is off the streets, but there are larger questions still looming, such as how is it possible that perhaps the most wanted terrorist certainly in Europe, possibly in the world, was with able to continue to live in Belgium, in Molenbeek, on the outskirts of Brussels in broad daylight ostensibly for four months? It has been four long months since the Paris attacks took place in November. While this is certainly a triumphant moment for Belgian and French and indeed all European security officials, I think it raises questions of how easy it is for people like Salah Abdeslam to go under the radar so to speak. You see this is a major concern in many European capitals. Is there enough cooperation between the communities that men like Salah Abdeslam are members of and law enforcement officials? Certainly we were spending time on the outskirts of Paris in the so-called suburbs, the disenfranchised youth living there. People we spoke to said they weren't interested in talking with police and talking to authorities because there's such a bad relationship in many cases between these communities and between the authorities.

So certainly now, Wolf, as I said before, this is triumphant moment and important moment but it still does raise a lot of question about how about he was able for four long months to be hiding in plain sight, so to speak.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: That suggests, Peter Bergen, he must have had help, accomplices who hid him and knew what he had done, knew who he was, but were willing to hide him for whatever reason, raising the spectrum of more terrorist looms at large.

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST (voice-over): Wolf, I think from what we know already it looks like there are as many as a couple dozen people who have some role to play in all of this. You know, the more we learn, the larger the group of people who provided some form of support network becomes.

It is worth pointing out, Wolf, that Belgium and France have supplied more foreign fighters to ISIS proportionally. The Germans provided quite a number as have the Brits. For Americans, should they -- how concerned should they be? And the good news is we have seen only one person, one person defect from ISIS in the last -- the number of people who have been trained by groups like ISIS in Syria who have returned to the United States have only been two whose names have been made public. So, the United States is protected by geography. You can drive from Paris to Damascus. Not from Damascus to Washington. And it is also protected by the relatively small number of Americans who have gone. We have had 6900 westerners who have gone to train in Syria. Only a handful of Americans relatively speaking have succeeded in getting there. From an American national security perspective, the problem of ISIS foreign fighters being trained by ISIS in Syria is really magnitude lower than what we have seen unfolding in France and Belgium.

BLITZER: You make a good point.

Let me bring in Nic Robertson, our international diplomatic editor.

And why France and Belgium specifically, why are they such hot beds for potential terrorists emerging from those countries?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: One of the reasons that most people tend to look at is the communities, the immigrant communities that the children, more often, of immigrant communities have not prospered as well as other countries in Europe and have been displaced from the centers of cities like Paris or the suburbs where resentment has grown and where ISIS and its narrative has grown, and ease of distributing that narrative through the Internet and the attractiveness that it managed to portray itself. It has appeal to a group of people that are sort of open to this kind of message, open to something more interesting, open to a different, more aggressive way of life that's fighting the system in an utterly fanatical way. They are buying the message. The condition there, the assessment is the conditions created by the communities or within the communities has allowed this to happen. Yet, that bears further examination.

In Britain, for example, where they are equally, over the years, the past four, five, six decades, a large immigrant community here disenfranchised youth within that community, as well, exposed to the same message. Also gone to join ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Perhaps a part of it, part of the draw from France and Paris is that the immigrant communities there feel a greater connection because they have come from North Africa, from the Middle East than we have seen here in Britain over in the decades. It's been more from western Asia. It's very hard to examine this and come up with hard, concrete answers. But the root of it is disaffected youth that is looking for a different message.

ISIS's message has come at a time when they can grasp it simply and attractive enough to pull them away. Coming from Britain, for example, you have to cross frontiers. If you leave from France, you don't have to go across the same frontier as Britain -- Wolf?

[13:36:21] BLITZER: What worries U.S. law enforcement officials is ISIS's ability to use social media to recruit these disaffected youth, whether in France, Belgium or other places, as well.

We will stay on top of the breaking news. More coming up. We're also new information as far as American politics is concerned.

The road to the White House, new developments in the anti-Donald Trump movement emerging. We'll share that with you. Much more after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:41:09] BLITZER: Much more on the breaking news coming in from Brussels, the capture alive of a terror suspect. We will get back to that in a little while.

But new developments we are watching, as well here in the United States, on the race for the White House. Remember, the magic number for the Republicans is 1,237. That's the number of delegates Donald Trump will need in order to be ensured he's the Republican presidential nominee. His camp, by the way, very confident they will get that number in advance of the convention coming up in July in Cleveland.

Opponents of his own party, the Republican Party, they are trying to stop him. Groups of prominent conservatives have been meeting behind closed doors to try to figure out how to derail Donald Trump right now, even though he is way ahead in the delegate count, also way ahead in the popular vote count with about half of the states already voting.

A fact one of his top advisers spoke about on CNN's "New Day" earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM CLOVIS, TOP ADVISOR, DONALD TRUMP PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: If these people were so concerned about what was going on, why don't they find a better candidate to run against Mr. Trump? We will get to 1,237 and these guys will be stewing on the floor of the convention in Cleveland. And we will have to figure out whether they want to -- get on the train or will end up under the train.

We have people who are elitists, who are part of the ruling class of this country, or pretenders to that throne, who think they are part of the ruling class, who are openly and willingly going out here and telling the American people who have voted for Donald Trump that they are stupid and they don't know any better. I want to tell you, if that's the path they want to go down, there will be consequences for that kind of thinking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Strong words from Sam Clovis.

Let's talk about this and more. Joining us our CNN political commentator, Mary Katherine Ham; Chris Kofinis, a Democratic strategist, former communications director for Senator John Edwards; and joining us from Los Angeles, the radio talk show host and Donald Trump supporter, John Phillips.

Well, Mary Katherine, when you hear strong words, you hear strong words from Donald Trump, as well, raising the possibility of riots if he is denied, if he's close and doesn't get to the magic number, but very close. What goes through your mind?

MARY KATHERINE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Bringing the party together with veiled threats. It is incumbent on Donald Trump to do work to bring other people in to the fold, is it not? I'm not sure he how well it will work and I'm not sure he is interested in doing it at all. Rules for a reason. When you see 38 to 40 percent of Republicans who said I would consider a third party run there's a real issue that needs to be worked on and not just told there will be consequences for this.

BLITZER: What do you think the front runner, Donald Trump, should do about this rebellion, if you are among conservatives, Republicans who are looking for an alternative, anything but Donald Trump?

JOHN PHILLIPS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, KABC: Keep winning. He's polling in the 60 percentile in the state of New York, which is a huge state with a lot of delegates. He's leading by double digits in Arizona, which is winner-take-all. He's winning by double digits in California, the largest state of the union. But it seems like every time he wins, all of my friends from the establishment have the same look on their face that Bob Kardashian had when the O.J. verdict was read. I don't know why people are shocked by this when all of the metrics, all of the indicators say this is where we are going. If Donald Trump continues to win, you are going to see a continuation of elected members of the Congress, governors, mayors get behind him as we have seen. Rudy Giuliani is the biggest name to get behind him. I think you will see that continue. And Donald Trump is a guy right now who's the presumptive nominee. I think we are far enough along now where we can say the likely scenario is that Donald Trump will be the Republican nominee, and the establishment needs to accept that.

[13:45:12] BLITZER: Well, Chris Kofinis, I've known you a long time. You are an experienced Democratic strategist. Let's say Donald Trump is the Republican nominee. Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee. How worried should Democrats be about facing off with Donald Trump in November?

CHRIS KOFINIS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST & FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR SENATOR JOHN EDWARDS: There's a couple of broad camps. There's one small camp, I'd say, that thinks he's extremely vulnerable because of the divided support he has within his own party. He's clearly alienating critical voting blocks, whether Hispanics or women. That makes him a very unappealing candidate. The other block, which I subscribe to, is I think he is a potential real threat. I don't think he can go into this election with this unstable electorate and under estimate the potential threat he has as a candidate.

The other reality is -- and I think this is one of the things that sometimes political analysts and pundits forget -- when you look at the percentage that vote, it's only 55 to 60 percent of eligible voters. If he is able to tap the other 40 percent, whether it is anger, frustration, hate, whatever you want to call it, he can pose a serious challenge.

BLITZER: All right. Stand by, guys.

My conversation, by the way, with Hillary Clinton activists out there, they are increasingly getting worried about the possibility of this kind of race, but we shall see. Stand by.

Coming up, the former Democratic presidential candidate, Michael Dukakis, is joining me. We will talk about Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, and a lot more. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:50:10] BLITZER: President Obama has called out Republican presidential front-runner, Donald Trump, multiple times now. And he's described the Republican presidential campaign, in his words, as "vulgar and divisive."

Michael Dukakis knows what it's like to be slammed by a sitting president you're trying to replace.

Here's Ronald Reagan in 1988 being asked about rumors that Dukakis had been treated for depression.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you think the American people deserve to know whether he's fit to govern by making his medical records public?

RONALD REAGAN, (R), FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look, I'm not going to pick on an invalid.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: President Reagan later apologized, saying he was, quote, "trying to be funny and it didn't work."

Michael Dukakis was the 1985 Democratic president nominee, the former governor of Massachusetts. His run against George H.W. Bush plays out in this Sunday's episode of "Race for the White House" here on CNN. He now teaches at Northeastern and UCLA. He's joining us from California.

Governor, thanks very much for joining us.

MICHAEL DUKAKIS, (D), FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR & FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Good to be with you, Wolf.

BLITZER: I remember covering your campaign. You always insisted on running a pretty clean campaign, a strategy some say may have cost you the race. So what do you make of the campaigns being run right now by the Republican candidates, specifically like Donald Trump and Ted Cruz? DUKAKIS: Well, it's a food fight. If these guys are running for the

presidency, you can't prove it to me. I don't hear any issues about the country. Each of them has their own particular approach to things, but if they're serious candidates for the presidency, you can't prove it to me.

BLITZER: You're the son of Greek immigrants. What do you think of Donald Trump's comments on immigration, on at least temporarily banning Muslims from entering the United States, building a wall along the U.S./Mexican border and having Mexico pay for it?

DUKAKIS: I think he's nuts. Look, he's the grandson of German immigrants, and he ought to be ashamed of himself. I'm very proud of my background, as I'm sure you are, who are a lot closer to the immigrant experience, Wolf, than other people. But this is a guy, a grandson of somebody who came over from Germany, and I don't know what he's talking about. For one thing, it's preposterous. We're not going to spend billions on a wall. That's ridiculous. Net illegal immigration into the United States today is zero. It's zero. So I don't know what he's talking about. It's very divisive. It's not the kind of America I believe in. I don't think it's the kind of America most Americans believe in. I hope at some point he's going to start addressing real issues that face this country.

BLITZER: What about what we're seeing in the primary race between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders? I know you support Hillary Clinton. Sanders, though, says it's a big mistake for him not to take his campaign all the way to the Democratic convention in July. He thinks it will motivate the base for a larger turnout in November. Do you think he should stay in the race or drop out?

DUKAKIS: I think if he wants to stay in the race, he should. You recall in my race Jesse Jackson stayed up right until the end, spoke at the convention. I didn't have a problem with that. And frankly this is such an incredible opportunity for the Democratic Party. Wolf, to have this kind of food fight on the other side and to be able to go to work and make this -- and I'm serious about this -- a 50- state campaign. Every state, every precinct. We've got to organize this country. We've got to work with people across this country. If we do so, we're not only going to win the presidency, we're going to win the Congress back. I think the fact that a Sanders, for example, stays in the race gives us a better opportunity to organize for the fall. And that effort has got to begin now. I'm serious about this. I think this is a huge opportunity for the Democratic Party, but we've got to seize it.

BLITZER: As you know, this Sunday night, CNN is running an episode of "Race for the White House" about your campaign against George H.W. Bush back in 1988. How would you describe President Bush as an opponent? At that time, he was the vice president.

DUKAKIS: Well, he was OK. I don't think he ran a great campaign. On the other hand, I made two huge mistakes in that campaign. I'm sorry to say they cost me the election. The first was that I made a decision I was not going to respond to the Bush attack campaign. You know, the country was very divided at the time. There's this kind of nostalgia about the Reagan era. It was a very polarizing eight years as you'll recall. There was nothing warm and fuzzy about it. I was one of those guys who thought the American people would respond to a positive campaign. And I think they would have. But if there's a lesson to be learned from my demise in '88, it is that if the other guy's going to come at you, you got to be ready for it, and you've got to have a strategy for dealing with it and I didn't, and I think that hurt. Secondly, I was the guy who always won elections with intensive precinct-based grassroots campaigns. I spent too much time talking to people I thought knew more than I did about how to win the presidency. Maybe for city council, but not for the presidency. And that was a mistake and a big one. And it took President Obama not once but twice to prove, beyond any doubt, grassroots campaigns for the presidency work, which is why I think it's important the Democratic Party do the same thing this year. But those were the two big mistakes I made and, unfortunately, you can't take them back.

[13:55:55] BLITZER: Michael Dukakis, thanks very much.

We're getting more details on the breaking news this hour, the arrest of the Paris terror attack suspect in Belgium, Salah Abdeslam, captured in a shootout in Belgium. Our CNN Belgium affiliate, BTM, reporting that he has been shot in the leg and taken to hospital. BTM also reporting that two suspects may still be in the house where the raid took place and that the operation is ongoing. Stay with CNN for updates on the raid and the capture of Salah Abdeslam.

That's it for me. I'll be back 5:00 p.m. eastern in "The Situation Room."

The news continues right after a quick break.

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