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Coverage of the Democratic presidential candidate in New Hampshire; 11-12mn ET
Aired February 4, 2016 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Clinton and Sanders taking their battle to Durham, New Hampshire tonight. Who will take the top spot on Tuesday and who is the strongest candidate to go against the GOP? We are going to discuss that. We have a great panel tonight. It is an incredible panel. Can I call you guys the dream team again? It has been incredible 24 hours, I can say in New Hampshire that we have been watching.
Anderson sat down with Donald Trump, the town hall last night on here on CNN and the debate that is about to end, we are going to bring all of that to you. So here with me, Mr. Van Jones, Hillary Rosen, John King, Bob Beckel, Angela Rye and Buck Sexton.
So after months and months of campaigning, what do you guys think - can these candidates say anything else that can make an impact on this race?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Five days in New Hampshire, look, Obama came out of Iowa eight years ago. He was leading in New Hampshire. Hillary Clinton came back and got him. Trump has a big lead in --
LEMON: Was she behind that far, thought?
KING: No, eight to ten. It wasn't - out poll shows at 30. Most people think it is probably closer to 20. It would be a miracle for her to win. But she also -- I'm sorry, he's from Vermont. You know, I don't have a prayer here. She won the state eight years ago. She has a network in the state because back to her husband running in 1992 and then on a post-reelection 1996. So the idea that, you know, this is a foreign country to me, I don't have a prayer --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're neighborly.
LEMON: Hillary, what do you think? Is there anything that they can say to convince even you as voter? I know you have your preferences.
HILLARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, our numbers show there's huge percentage of undecided voters here. And so, they have to make a decision. They are, you know, they are expecting a high turnout in New Hampshire and I think they are looking, you know. We'll see what happens after tonight. But these candidates are spending a lot of time in New Hampshire. They are doing a lot of events. There was some question about whether Hillary Clinton would stay in
New Hampshire or just cede it to Bernie Sanders. Obviously, she is not doing that. That means, he has to stay there, too. So there is clearly a lot to go here.
LEMON: But do you think by doing that, even if she see it - I mean, is that a winning? That is now a winning strategy going forward beyond.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look. I think right now she's got a window because you still have -- even people who are Bernie Sanders fanatics, who love Bernie Sanders, there's still this sense of can he win a general election? What would he do on foreign policy? There are some areas where she is trying to reassure on those questions, but also I thought what she did last night is more important than what she did tonight.
Last night at that CNN town hall, she exposed her heart a little bit. She talked about who she was. She let that curtain come down. And I think that is actually a bigger challenge for her, that likability factor. And she can move that.
LEMON: Speaking of that, she really went hard against some of on exactly who is a progressive. Is she progressive enough? Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am a progressive who gets things done. And the root of that word progressive is progress. But I have heard senator Sanders' comments and it's really caused me to wonder, who's left in the progressive wing of the Democratic Party? Under his definition, President Obama is not progressive because he took donations from Wall Street. Vice president Biden is not progressive because he supported keystone. Senator Shaheen is not progressive because she supports the trade pact. Even the late great Senator Wellstone would not fit this definition because he voted for DOMA.
You know, we have differences and honestly, I think weep should be talking about what we want do for the country. But if we're going to get into labels, I don't think it was particularly progressive to vote against the Brady Bill five times. I don't think it was progressive to vote to give gun makers and sellers immunity. I don't think it was progressive to vote against Ted Kennedy's immigration reform.
So we can go back and forth like this. But the fact is most people watching tonight want to know what we've done and what we'll do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Angela, that was way more specific and way more aggressive than last night.
ANGELA RYE, POLITICAL STRATEGIST: Yes. And I think that last night was an excellent beginning of this. This was definitely the highlight of the night for Hillary in my opinion. For her to day, are you going to really say Barack Obama was not progressive? And then he sad to come back and counter that later, of course. And one of the questions that was ask is, is Barack Obama aggressive? And he to say yes. So I think it was a great line from her and great examples of people who we know are progressive. And so it is kind of like this is dead in the water and time to move on.
ROSEN: She also showed us some tip or tat on this which is I'm going to hammer you on your Brady Bill vote. You know, I'm going to hammer you on the derivatives and I'm going to hammer you on some things if you keep up this name calling.
RYE: The derivative vote got a little lost, I thought that was a little deep.
ROSEN: It got a little deep, but you know, they could push at it if they keep up with this campaign passion.
LEMON: He didn't really have a comeback for that.
ROSEN: He did not.
LEMON: He did not. Go ahead, Buck.
BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: His comeback would be, are you really trying to come at me from the left. I'm a Democratic socialist. I mean, she can point out very few things where Bernie Sanders hasn't been a hard line leftist. But the fact of the matter is that she, in everything else that she is doing, is constantly trying to position herself as the more centrist, more electable candidate. So she is walking quite a tightrope all the time. She can point to one issue, really, which is guns and Bernie Sanders from Vermont, a very gun from the state, other than that, she can't come from Bernie's left on anything and she wants to be progressive enough to be acceptable to the base but not so progressive --
[23:05:18] LEMON: Her point was -- I think she said in the lead-up to all of that is that none of us is perfect. Nobody is perfect.
SEXTON: But if being progressive is being perfect, Bernie Sanders is closer to perfect than she is.
LEMON: But she also talked about, she said you are - I think what she said it was an artful smear which, you know, got some boos and some applause. It was one of the biggest night - biggest moments of the night. Let's listen in and we'll discuss.
SANDERS: Secretary Clinton does Republican the establishment. I represent, I hope, ordinary Americans and, by the way, who are not all that enamored (ph) with the establishment. But I am very proud it are people like Keith Ellison and (INAUDIBLE) in the house, the co- chairman of the house progressive caucus.
CLINTON: Well, I have to just jump in here because honestly senator Sanders is the only person who would characterize me a woman running to be the first woman president as exemplifying the establishment. And I have to tell you that it is really quite amusing to me. People support me because they know me, they know my life's work, they have worked with me and many have also worked with senator Sanders. And at the end of the day, they endorse me because they know I can get things done. I am not going to make promises I can't keep.
SANDERS: What being part of the establishment is in the last quarter having a super Pac that raised $15 million from Wall Street, that throughout one's life raised a whole lot of money from the drug companies and other special interests. To my mind, if we do not get a handle on money in politics and the degree to which big money controls the political process in this country, nobody is going to bring about the changes that is needed if this country for the middle class and working families.
CLINTON: Yes, but I think it fair to really ask what's behind that comment. You know, senator Sanders has said he wants to run a positive campaign. I tried to keep my disagreements over issues as it should be. But time and time again by innuendo, by insinuation, there is this attack that he is putting forward. Which really comes down to, you know, anybody whoever took donations or speaking fees from any interest group has to be bought. And I just absolutely reject that, senator. And I really don't think these kind of attacks by insinuation are worthy of you.
And enough is enough. If you've got something to say, say it directly but you will not find that I ever changed a view or a vote because of any donation that I ever received. And I have stood up and represented my constituents to the best of my ability. And I am very proud of that. So I think it's time to end the very artful smear that you and your campaign have been carrying out in recent weeks and let's talk about the issues. Let's talk about the issues that divide us.
SANDERS: OK. Let us talk about issues.
CLINTON: We both agree with campaign finance reform. I worked hard for McCain-Feingold. I want to reverse citizens united.
SANDERS: Let's talk about issues.
CLINTON: And so, let's talk about issues.
[23:09:03] LEMON: Let's talk about some issues. I want to welcome our viewers joining us now from the Democratic debate. We have got all the analysis for you here with our political dream team and they join us. We'll introduce them throughout this hour.
But listen, Bob Beckel, you know, who is the most progressive? What are you insinuating? Why don't you just say it in my face?
BOB BECKEL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. (INAUDIBLE). Just remember, the longest five days in the presidential politics and haven't six of it. It is the five days before the New Hampshire primary. There are a lot of undecided voters here. They take their votes very seriously. And the Demographics of that state have change a lot. People from Massachusetts have moved into southern New Hampshire. Both Democrats and Republicans, more moderate on both counts, which is something that Trump better be careful of. Polling in New Hampshire is always a dicey game because it will go back and forth on you.
The problem for Bernie Sanders is he is setting himself up because we say he's 31 points ahead. He didn't won by 31 point. And the question is how close is she going to come to him? Did she get eight, nine? Did she exceed expectation? My guess is yes, she would.
[23:10:05] LEMON: Did she help herself in this moment, though? Is that where the gloves came off, do you think Angela?
RYE: I think 100 percent, this was a really good moment because in so many ways I know folks who take speaking engagements or fees all the time, whether they were elected or not. She was not elected when she took this particular speaking engagement as it (INAUDIBLE) or something. And for me I just - I think it's so in the weeds and I understand why people think that people are bought as a result it have but I also think it's not fair.
KING: It just plays right into the source of Bernie Sanders's strength, though. She needs a better answer. I don't know if she has a better answer. She and her husband made $104, $105 million in paid speeches. It's hard for a blue collar guy who is worried about his jobs or importantly worried about his kids and their future to understand that. It is just hard. It plays right - look, is it fair to her? Maybe not. But it place right in to Bernie Sanders's argument is you are getting screwed by the big rich banks. Washington doesn't hold them accountable. Nobody holds them accountable. And she's taking a boat load of money from them, who do you trust to stand up to them.
ROSEN: Here's none reason why that moment matters. Because she did not shy away. She faltered a little built on this issue last night. She came back tonight. She was raring to go on it and she did not falter and she pushed hard enough that he then said, all right, let's talk about the issues. He wanted off of the subject.
Tonight's debate was the first time these two went head to head. And what we saw, I think, was Hillary Clinton as a good debater, as a fighter, you can imagine these two in a debate with Republicans. It seems like you could imagine her much better this a debate with Republicans.
LEMON: All right. Stand by. Because she was asked about this moment last night on CNN that she struggled with it as Hillary Rosen just said. The question about her Wall Street speaking fees. So lots to take a look at. Let's take a look at that moment and then we'll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, AC 360: One OF The things that Senator Sanders points to and a lot of your critics point to is you made three speeches for Goldman Sachs. You were paid $675,000 for three speeches. Was that a mistake? I mean was that a bad errand judgment?
CLINTON: Look. I made speeches for a lot of groups. I told them what I thought. I answered question.
COOPER: But did you have to be paid $675,000?
CLINTON: I don't know. That's what they offered. So, you know, every secretary of state that I know has done that.
I may not have done the job I should in explaining my record, you know. I did when I left the secretary of state's office, like so many former official, military leaders, journalists, others, I did go on the speaking circuit. I spoke to heart doctors. I spoke to American camping associations. I spoke to auto dealers. And yes, I spoke to firms on Wall Street. They wanted me to talk about world. What my experience had been as secretary of state.
But I want people to know is I went to Wall Street before the crash. I was the one saying you're going to wreck the economy because of these shenanigans with mortgages. I called to end the carried interest loophole at that hedge fund managers enjoy. I proposed changes in CEO compensation. I called for a consumer protection financial bureau before it was created.
SANDERS: Let me just say this. Wall Street is perhaps the most powerful economic and political force in this country. You have companies like Goldman Sachs who just recently paid a fine with the federal government for $5 billion for defrauding investors. Goldman Sachs was one of those companies whose illegal activity helped destroy the economy and ruin the lives of many Americans.
Kid gets caught with marijuana, that kid has a police record. A Wall Street executive destroys the economy, $5 billion settlement with the government, no criminal record. That is what power is about. That is what corruption is about and that is what has to change in the United States of America.
LEMON: All right. So Van Jones, I mean, if someone offered you $675,000 to speak, would you say no?
JONES: I would take it and say thank you very much. But I think, though other people may see it differently than we are talking about tonight, I think, first of all, it is just very, very far for ordinary person to understand why would someone give you that much money to talk. And I think what Bernie missed an opportunity tonight, I thought she was very strong on this, but he should to say, why do you think they gave you the money and did you choose to take it? Because most people don't imagine people had that much money on the table for nothing. I also think that she played it smart, your may continuation that
about me personally. I think Sanders missed an opportunity say no, it is not about you personally. There's something happening. It's much more subtle. I don't think people are here's a dollar, I'm going to change my vote. I think what happens is that this much money in the system, people began to even subconsciously adapt themselves to that. And that is the big danger.
[23:15:23] ROSEN: It is not about you. It is about all those people who screwed on their mortgages and other things, right. That would have been smart. But he backs off. He can't debate as well.
LEMON: Go ahead, John.
KING: The psychology of him backing off is really interesting because I think early on this race, Bernie Sanders didn't think he had a prayer and he backed off a lot. But he wanted to make a point. It was a very important to him. He believes this whole, you know, his economic view. He believes it with all his heart. And he wanted to make a point and he says, you know, I'm (INAUDIBLE) against an aircraft carrier. I'm eventually going to out.
Now, he sees the others. Is it still a steep hill? Will he have an issue? Will he move to South Carolina and Nevada, and places where you have a plurality if not a majority, people of color who are voting, something he has never competed before because he is from Vermont? It's still a really a steep hill, but I think he's say, OK, I essentially tied in Iowa. I'm probably going to win in New Hampshire and he's getting aggressive and drawing a sharper contrasts. She doesn't like that.
Look. She is the better debater. She has more experience and particularly political foreign policy stuff. Maybe you disagree with her views, but she is more comfortable. You know, she has more depth on these issues. But this point he is making, perhaps people will call him Johnny one note on the economic stuff. He has a very receptive audience especially in a blue collar place like New Hampshire where people do people do feel that, you know, they are going to shot.
And to Van's point, $675,000 for three speeches, or if you look at the broader number, blue collar (INAUDIBLE), I'm a kid from Georgia, Massachusetts, you know, I've been very lucky since then, but I tell you, my brothers and sisters have been they do, what? What's that for?
LEMON: Just to play devil's advocate. But most people aren't the first lady of the United States, as Angela said, the former secretary of state, a former senator, and it is what the market case is that.
SEXTON: I think the assumption was and all of America was assume at the time the, people writing those checks were assuming that she was essentially going to be running for president and it was likely winner of the presidency. So that obviously (INAUDIBLE). Look. This is the Achilles heel of the Clinton campaign. This is
what she can't get on. You mentioned before, she doesn't have a better answer. There is no better answer. And it is because it is true. And Bernie Sanders doesn't have hit it very hard. I agree with Van as well. He could have it harder. He could have been a little tougher on her or he come around from another angle.
The fact of the matter is it's not just a couple hundred thousand dollars here and there for speeches. It's between her and her husband, by the way, who was getting paid while she was secretary of state outrageous fees for these kind of speeches to the tune of over $100 million fortune. They didn't start in a great company. They gave a whole lot of --.
SEXTON: Bernie Sanders is making the point that the government is up for sale and Hillary Clinton is the poster child. She's the best example you can point to --
ROSEN: Here's how she responds. She respond by saying, by going policy wonk, right? She said, yes, but my plan to be in Wall Street is tougher than your plan and you just want to talk about last (INAUDIBLE). Let me talk about this, listen in. She is missing a point.
LEMON: You guys, standby.
ROSEN: She's got to get to more of the emotion.
LEMON: Sorry about that, Hillary. But I have to get to this person because it's important we speak to Robby Mook. He is a campaign manager for Hillary Clinton of America.
Thank you, sir, for joining us. So how do you think the secretary did tonight?
ROBBY MOOK, CAMPAIGN MANAGER, HILLARY FOR AMERICA: Obviously we feel like she did a terrific job. I think you really saw on that stage someone who can do both parts of the job or president, get our economy moving, get it working for middle class families again, get wages rising, get equal pay for equal work. But also be our commander in- chief, protect our national security.
I think you saw senator Sanders fail that national security test. He compared Iran to Cuba. He wasn't clear about the power structure in North Korea and he couldn't answer two questions about Afghanistan. He couldn't even use the word Afghanistan in his answers. So it was a lively debate. But I think Hillary Clinton was clearly our next president.
LEMON: Robby, we were discussing, I'm not sure how much you heard talking about the speaking fees and she addressed it last night. She even admitted tonight that she could have done a better job in addressing it when she addressed it tonight. So do you think she did a good enough job for the American people for the people in New Hampshire?
MOOK: I think she has always done a good job for people on this issue. She mentioned tonight she went to Wall Street before the crash and warned about the reckless practices that were going to crash our economy. Second, she said again tonight she has the strongest plan. Her plan deals not just with breaking up the banks but with the dangerous practices that caused this crash in the first place. And I think the proof of all of this is look at who is spending super PAC money against her. The Wall Street hedge fund billionaires are spending millions. Here in New Hampshire GOP super PACs have spent over $5 million attacking Hillary Clinton since she's gotten in this race. So I think her remarks and the facts speak for themselves on this.
[23:20:15] LEMON: So I want to talk to you about the emails because she addressed that tonight. We will get to, you know, the (INAUDIBLE) part of it. But when she addressed the transcripts, she sort of, you know, she faltered a little bit. She said, you know, I'm not sure if I'll release them. I'll have to look into it. Didn't appear to be a satisfactory answer.
MOOK: Well, I will let her remarks speak for themselves. She's going to look in this. There was an asked (ph) put out there and, you know, we will be looking into that over the coming days.
LEMON: So there is a new state department report, Robby, that says that Colin Powell and staffers for Condoleezza Rice, they received classified information through her personal email account. What is your reaction to this? Does this give her cover?
MOOK: Well, I think what this shows is this practice of over classification. As Secretary Clinton said and it is the facts of shown again and again. She never sent or received anything that was marked classified. And I trust it for Secretary Powell and for officials in Secretary Rice's office that this was the same thing. And people weren't trying to break the rules.
What's happening now is retroactively there's an interdepartmental fight over how things should be classified today and it is outrageous and Secretary Powell has made that clear. And I think all of these emails need to get released. That's what we have asked for. Let's get everything out there and the American people should judge for themselves. But the fact that secretary Clinton or Secretary Powell for that matter was on an email chain that contained news articles that now that's somehow classified, it is ridiculous. And we just need to get these emails released.
LEMON: Robby, so it was just a few emails in regard to Condoleezza Rice and to Colin Powell. Certainly they didn't have their own servers in their homes. The voters continue to have questions as you know about Hillary Clinton she is seen as not be trustworthy. Are they right to question her on that?
MOOK: Look. The question in this election is who voters can trust to fight for them and get results. And Hillary Clinton, can you put h, up against any of the candidates in this race. For decades she has been fighting and getting results. She took on the insurance companies to get that healthcare access for every single American. When she didn't succeed, she stuck at it until we got the children's health insurance program for eight million kids. She was the one who brought nations together to impose sanctions on Iran, to sign the new start treaty with Russia.
This is someone who people can trust to go fight for them and get results. And that's what really matters in this point.
LEMON: I got one more quick question for you regarding polling. Everyone up here on the stage and the panel covered 2008 and we have been discussing it. She was behind in New Hampshire in 2008 and she pulled it out. But 61 percent now to 30 percent, that's a good size margin. Do you think at this point she can make up enough ground? Can she do it?
MOOK: Well, New Hampshire has some built-in challenges for Secretary Clinton this time around. You know, in the last 30 years, no -- all border state candidates I should say, candidates from states bordering New Hampshire have always prevailed here. And in fact if you look at Nate Silva's site, he cites that there is a 15-point advantage for border state candidates here in New Hampshire. So that's a challenge. But Secretary Clinton said we are going to fight this campaign out in every state for every delegate, every vote, every caucus goer, and that is what she's doing here. She is not going to leave the state. She is going to stick with this and fight here like she fought in Iowa and won. Like we are going to fight in Nevada, South Carolina and all the Super Tuesday states as well.
LEMON: Robby Mook, we appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much.
MOOK: Thanks for the opportunity.
LEMON: All right. And we'll get analysis from our panel right after this.
When we come right back, more fireworks from the Democrats in New Hampshire tonight.
[23:27:03] LEMON: And we are back. I wish you guys could hear the conversations in the break.
Joining me now, Van Jones, Hillary Rosen, John King, Bob Beckel, Angela Rye, and Buck Sexton.
OK. What do you think of the response from the campaign manager? Did he, you know, it is a job to spent.
JONES: He did a good job. Listen, I think that is a disciplined campaign. And what you saw from Secretary Clinton tonight is a disciplined candidate. She figured out where she was weak. She was prepared to go in and counterpunch.
One of the things I think that Sanders suffers from it that he is very, very good in his lane. He didn't put in the work to be able to anticipate where he was going to get hit and have the great comebacks and stuff. So you saw both from Mook and from Secretary Clinton a disciplined campaign. I still think that this question around the money is still going to be a problem.
LEMON: He got a little muddled, Angela, because I asked him about, you know, the speakers transcript and then the email as well. He said they should be released. I think he's talking about the speakers transcript even though she said, you know, I'm not so sure. I have to look in to it.
RYE: Yes. And may have heard him --
LEMON: He wants the emails released, but he didn't say it.
RYE: Yes. I think that he was saying they are going to look into it, the request of made tonight, we will look in to it I think it was he said on the transcript for the speeches. I think on the email like (INAUDIBLE).
LEMON: But he seems, you know, I'll let her words stand for themselves regarding the speaker's fees. But do you think that she handled - she did a good job of handling the speaker's fee.
RYE: No. I think that there's no win on this because of all the - I mean, you all lash out. I might say this isn't part of it is there's no common person, layman person understanding of a six-figure speaking fees. I understand it. I would take it, you know. And I think that if we did a focus loophole right now on the stage, Don, maybe all of you win.
BECKEL: I think the people who made $23,000 will say for $675,000, they could buy my vote. I can tell you that.
BECKEL: But listen. Let me tell you something. Ronald Reagan made $2 million speaking in Japan, $2 million for one speaking fee. It's a lot more than Hillary Clinton ever made. And they all make that. Yes, you have to live with it. Yes, it's difficult for people to understand. But I guarantee you tomorrow morning that Allen Georgia (ph) in New Hampshire is going to wake up and say those speaking fees are driving me crazy.
LEMON: I got to get to this. I promise, we will talk about it.
Let's hear now from the Sanders campaign. Joining me now is Jeff Weaver, Bernie Sanders campaign manager.
Mr. Weaver, I appreciate you coming on. So how do you think he did?
JEFF WEAVER, BERNIE SANDERS' CAMPAIGN MANAGER: I think he did great. I think a large part of the debate was focused on the issues that he is has brought to this campaign. The rigged economy, the corrupt campaign finance system and how we're going to turn that around. Look. As he pointed out on issue after issue, we're really not going
to make progress in the Congress that we need to make in terms of the fundamental change until we can get rid of this big money in politics and its corrupting influence.
LEMON: Was he prepared for Hillary Clinton to come after him? Because, I mean, she really came to play tonight. She went after him tonight. Was he ready for that?
WEAVER: Absolutely. I mean, it was fully expected. You know, the dynamics of the race certainly have changed since the first debate. And I think you saw it in Secretary Clinton's, you know, demeanor in the debate. She clearly came looking to tussle and that was fine.
[23:30:11] LEMON: Yes. So the question has been from voters, how is he going to accomplish what he is promising? How is he going to pay for it? Secretary Clinton went after him on that. So how is he going to do that?
WEAVER: Look. On a couple - couple of points here. First of all, he has a lot of experience over the years working with Republicans in Congress. During a ten-year period in the house here, had more amendments pass by recorded vote than a Republican house of representatives than any other member of Congress? He worked very effectively with John McCain two years ago to pass the most comprehensive Veterans healthcare reform in the modern history of our country. So he does have experience working with Republicans where common ground can be found.
On the other hand, the truth of the matter is that you need, as he has said, we have to rally the American people, to stand up against the billionaire class and the people who represent them in the Congress and force them to make the changes that we need in this country. As Anderson Cooper I think appropriately pointed out last night, you know, Secretary Clinton may have many more modest proposals. And I think it is fair to call them more modest, but in truth, her proposals are no more likely to pass than Senators Sanders'. So, you know, I think the attack is a little bit misplaced. The truth of the matter is is he does have an ambitious agenda, but you're going to get the most change by having it more by moving the goal post out further.
LEMON: Speaking of last night and Anderson, he said he wasn't going to go negative in this campaign. Hillary Clinton tonight accused him of going negative and doing it underhandedly. Is this a smear as you says that underhanded smear to paraphrase her?
WEAVER: I don't think there's anything underhanded about it at all. What he had said is that there is an undue influence of money and politics in the United States of America. We see it playing out every day in the Congress which is why, you know, we don't get climate change reform that we need, why we don't get more healthcare reform the we need, why we don't have a better trade policy. All of these things are influence by the fact that big money is playing in the political process. These big companies that give always big money don't do it just out of the goodness of their heat. They think they're getting something back for it. LEMON: Jeff Weaver, we appreciate your time. Thanks for coming on
WEAVER: Thank you. Happy to be here.
LEMON: Everyone, stay with me. More on that very heated Democratic debate when we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:36:24] LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. Look at this live pictures. You guys recognized those people? Howard Dean and Hillary Clinton there at party in Durbin, New Hampshire. Of course this is after the debate. And I guess they are hearing what voters thought of what she said and what Bernie Sanders said. But of course, we all know Howard Dean running for president. I'm going - do you know that thing?
KING: Can you give us your favorite Dean scream?
LEMON: I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. No one wants to be remembered for their worst moment. So we will let Mr. Dean.
ROSEN: And of course from Vermont wearing his Hillary button.
So Hillary, I wanted to ask you because you mentioned something that you though would be a better - possible a better line of attack for Hillary Clinton with Bernie Sanders, something that she could use that she hadn't use already?
ROSEN: Look. I think that Bernie Sanders is masterful at describing the problems in this country. It is a rigged economy. And Hillary Clinton would do well I think to just agree with him more on that sometimes that there is a, you know, just because he has named it and framed it doesn't mean she can't get in there and, you know, dressed it up a little bit.
But I do think that a better line of attack with Democrats is that he hasn't always been there as a Democrat. That she hasn't really been, you know, walking the walk.
LEMON: He was asked about that tonight. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: And it is true. It is true, not to be denied. I am the longest serving independent in the history of the United States Congress. People of Vermont sent me to Washington as an independent. That is true. But, on the other hand, I have, when I was in the house for 16 years, I caucused with the Democrats. In the Senate for nine years caucused with the Democrats of course and I was elected by the Democrats to be chair of the veterans committee three years ago, which I am very proud of. And now am I ranking member on the budget committee, leader of the Democrats in opposition of majority Republicans.
I am running for president as a Democrat. And if elected, not only do I hope to bring forth a major change in national priorities, but let me be frank. I do want to see major changes in the Democratic Party. I want to see working people and young people come into the party in a way that doesn't exist now. And you know what? I want a 50-state strategy so the Democratic Party is not just the party of 25 states.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: John King, is that realistic? And can you be a progressive independent?
KING: Well, here you makes an interesting point. With New Hampshire, undeclared voters independence are a plurality in the state. There are more undeclared voters than Democrats and republicans. And they can vote in either primary. You just to show up. In Iowa, it is more open. You cannot send in registration. Independents can come it. When we get past this, we are going into many more states we have closed primaries. But only Democrats can vote. So not only if we talk clearly then you get more Latinos or African-American which is place for Hillary Clinton thinks she has relationships and history. In 2008, you have an African-American candidate with Obama so that the trap door open on her once she became credible.
She thinks against Bernie Sanders that's her great phase in the hole even she loses in New Hampshire. But you also have close primaries. If you look at the polling even in New Hampshire, if you take the independents out, then you just people who are Democrats, Hillary Clinton does just fine. She wins and she wants even. It is when you bring the new young voters who haven't participated before so or what are they yet, we don't really know. They're left leaning, but in a closed primary, Sanders will have a tougher time.
SEXTON: You have two candidates who are both speaking to a narrative about frustration and being pushed out of the (INAUDIBLE) and left out in the critical process. And so, Bernie Sanders, being somewhat of an outsider within the Democratic Party, I know we caucus with him. He is not really won. He is a Democratic socialist. That actually supports him in that narrative.
People here, and they say look, if you believe the politics is broken on the right or the left, you are going to go with Bernie Sanders or Hillary, who is despite what she said tonight, the ultimate establishment candidate. I mean, if there is such a thing as a political establishment, it is Hillary Clinton and that she would even pretend to walk away from that for a second, adds to the narrative, which I think is very powerful that Bernie Sanders got into that she's wildly disingenuous. I think that was her weakest - one of her weakest moments.
[23:40:35] BECKEL: (INAUDIBLE) for a second. We were all assume that this is massive populist movement running across the country. We have had populism since William (INAUDIBLE) and the Democratic ticket would go right through Ross Perot, as much I hate to say that name. And every cycle about 15 years, we have a sort anti-establishment stuff. And somebody grabs (INAUDIBLE), I give Sanders all the credit. They don't win. And in the end, we make it down to Democrats vote or Republicans vote, you are going to find that this several people who are angry populists are not the majority in this country and there will be an establishment presence.
JONES: But let me tell you what's good about interest process, though and I agree with you with this, probably the case of the quote-unquote "establishment" will win. But these ideas, I don't like Trump's ideas, but he is forced a conversation. I love Bernie as ideas and he is forced a conversation. And when you have somebody who is willing to stand up and say tuition-free college, don't forget they have that in New York City, they have that in California for years and it worked. When you have somebody is willing to stretch that out, I think it makes the process better.
The other I just want to say is I feel very, very strongly that Bernie Sanders had a theory of change that is actually more reliable than what most people think. Clinton had a theory of change is be a good technocrat. And I tell you what, and she will be, if what she is spreading I believe she will be, she will be won the best presidents ever. But her theory is be a good technocrat. Bernie's theory is bring massive of people into the system and change the system by the memory. And you can have a debate about whether he is right or he is wrong, but he has a coherent theory.
LEMON: I GOT TO GET TO A BREAK. Hold those thoughts. We will get to them after the break.
When we come right back, we have got much more on tonight's Democratic debate. Don't go anywhere.
[23:46:09] LEMON: We have heard lots of here's what I'm going to do, promises. It is reality check time, everyone. And let's take a look at when the candidates said tonight.
Tom Foreman has that for us.
All right, Tom. Keep it real for us.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: All right, Don. As you noted, Bernie Sanders has been pounding on Hillary Clinton about this idea that she's being so much big money from Wall Street that she is just never going to demand big financial reform. She hit back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: And I think the best evidence that the Wall Street people at least know where I stand and where I always stood is because they are trying to beat me in this primary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Well, there's no question about it, some of her opponents are getting some big money from Wall Street out there but not as much as she is. In fact, the center for responsive politics says individuals tied to the financial services industry have given her more money than any other single candidate including the Republicans. So her claim out there that Wall Street is somehow out to get her is simply false.
Now, she went after Bernie Sanders as well saying that she is discounting the progress that's been made under Obamacare. He is overreaching for new reforms in ways that may damage Obamacare and all the progress that has been made. And he said hold on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: The idea that I would dismantle healthcare in America while we're waiting to pass a Medicare for all is just not accurate. I helped write that bill. But by moving forward, rallying the American people, do I believe we should have health care for all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Yes, he was on the Senate committee that helped craft Obamacare but he spent an awful lots of his time there arguing to the idea that the government should supply healthcare to everyone, the so- called single payer plan. He didn't get that and then he spent a lot of time saying maybe he can't vote for this measure at all. In the end, he did. And yes, he was part of the debate. But to suggest that he was a central architect of what Obamacare is today, that is really overreached in order to hold that, false, too.
If you want to find out a lot more about how he made this decisions and many other things that we checked out into the debate, go to CNN.com/reality check -- Don.
LEMON: Tom, you have no singing albums, nothing, basketball, fact checks for us tonight?
FOREMAN: Not tonight. It would be great if we did.
LEMON: Thank you, Tom Foreman. Always a great job.
So, what you guys think? We had two false. Two things, two claims that were not true tonight.
One was that Wall Street out it get her, not so much. And that he was sort of the architect of this whole thing, not so much.
KING: The Wall Street out to get her is complicated. Hillary is talking about in the sense that Tom is dead right. She has raised a lot of money, the most money in the field from the financial services industry. So it makes it harder for her to make the case while she try to get me, when you can say then, yes, you are still - you took their speaking fees and now you're taking their campaign money, but there are some super PAC ads that are being finance by wall street that are being spent against her. Essentially, the Republicans trying to encourage people to vote for Sanders.
Now, they were doing that to tell them they thought he would be the weaker general election nominee. If you look at the polling now, looks polling now about November, doesn't really work much, but he runs equal or better against her, if Hillary can survive.
LEMON: I heard something earlier where she said it was called Hillary care before it was called Obamacare. Can someone fact check that for me? Was it?
LEMON: Was it the exact same plan, though?
ROSEN: Hers was more liberal, requiring more government subsidy.
JONES: And the thing, not at the party thing is history is complicated. In fact, she had a more liberal health care proposal. At the same time she was more moderate on trade. And so, these barbs that go back and forth, back and forth, I don't understand why Hillary Clinton took such offense when Bernie Sanders, you know, pulled and caught on some of the stuff. Yes, look. Sure. In the middle of the 90s, the Clintons brand was we are the moderates. We are the DLC. We are not the rainbow coalition. We are not Jesse Jackson.
LEMON: You said last night, the blue dog Democrats.
JONES: Yes. And it is fine. And guess what, as the country has evolved, she has evolved. That's OK.
[23:50:03] ROSEN: Here is an interesting, though. In this regard, you really can't lump Bill and Hillary together. Her voting record was as a senator from New York, much more liberal than the president from Arkansas. And that really is true. And so, you know, I saw something today that her voting record and Bernie Sanders' voting record was 95 percent the same. And one of the things we're going to start to see now that Bernie Sanders has moved up in the poles, now that he has this money, now that this campaign is going to go on the next three months, people are going to start examining his 25 years in Congress a lot more close.
LEMON: And some of (INAUDIBLE). He set himself up for that tonight.
But everyone, stay with me. We are five days away from the New Hampshire primaries. Did tonight's debate change anybody's mind?
[23:53:51] LEMON: Back now with my political dream team.
And I have to ask one of the dreamers here, one of the member of the team, where's your magic wall?
LEMON: Is it in your hotel room? KING: You know, you didn't pay me a high enough speaking fee to be
LEMON: I'm asking because I want to know what you are looking ahead for to Tuesday.
KING: Look. I think that you have a state where independents could go either way. I think the Republican primary it seems that Trump is holding his lead. Let's give this (INAUDIBLE) to Bob's point. And New Hampshire sudden -- can break late. I remember in 1992, when Bill Clinton dropped through the floor and then (INAUDIBLE) and then he fought back in the end for second place. People think he won. He fought back in the end for second. But he moved the numbers. He moved the numbers with retail campaigns. Nobody like him. But he just moved the numbers.
So, I'm really interested of the undeclared. Of the truly undeclared, mostly undeclared are either Democrats or Republicans, they just don't want to be identified as such. But if the group that is, where do they go, if Sanders bring them in to the Democratic vote. If so, then he will win by a healthy margin. If they decide the Republican race is more interesting, it could affect the math a little bit.
LEMON: I want everyone to take a look at two important moments that came towards the end of the debate tonight. Look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Would you unite the party by trying to pick Sanders as your running mate.
[23:55:00] CLINTON: Well, I'm certainly going to unite the party but I'm not getting ahead of myself. I think that would be a little bit presumptuous. If I'm so fortunate to be the nominee, first person I will call to talk to about where we go and how we get it done would be senator Sanders.
SANDERS: As I have said many times, you know, sometimes in this campaign things get a little bit out of hand. I happen to respect the secretary very much. I hope it is mutual. And on our worst days I think it is fair to say we are a hundred times better than any Republican candidate for president.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Bob itching to get in. What?
BECKEL: Yes. What I was going to say is that the Democrats have not moved farther to the left than the Republicans have moved farther to the right. Either one of them, Hillary Clinton will have a much easier time getting to the middle with this race (INAUDIBLE). On the Republican side, they've moved so far to the right, I don't
know how they can get their bridge over the center. So there's a lot more damage being done in the Republican race and in their debates than this one. Either one of them are going to be just fine.
LEMON: Buck, there is a lot of love there. But can they, you know, everyone says I'm going to work with the other side and then but once they get there --
SEXTON: Between the two of them or between Democrats and the Republicans.
LEMON: Between Democrats and Republicans. Either one getting into the office.
SEXTON: Yes. The idea of the Hillary Clinton being a uniter with the Republicans, that the Clinton brand is all of the sudden going to be -- her brand specifically, put aside what her husband's brand was. I thinks that very unlikely. But she's a polarizing figure.
RYE: It's even more unlikely when you start talking about Bernie Sanders, who is pitching Medicare for all, which we know doesn't have a chance given the current dynamic.
LEMON: High taxes.
RYE: Well, not only that but when they tried to get this done when he was on the health committee, there was a Democratic Senate majority and Democratic house. That's not the dynamic that they are going into. Right now maybe the Democrats will win the Senate back. They are not going to win the house back.
SEXTON: Hillary is ever been as liberal enough versus Barack Obama. And so, I think you can take a look at the last seven years or so, Barack Obama trying to work with Republicans or not, depending on how you so that. There's no reason to believe that Hillary would be more willing to work with Republicans than Barack Obama.
ROSEN: Here is something we haven't had, though, with Democrats for a while is both Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders have talked a lot about legislation in this campaign. And in this debate tonight. And to have candidates actually believe in the legislative process means that they may actually - both of them want to go to the hill, work with either side, get stuff done and having that conversation tonight, I agree with Bob. I think that the Democrats won tonight period. But that these two did a great job.
JONES: Tuesday, I'm looking for the youth vote. I want to see can Hillary improve with young people. She got destroyed by the young people in Iowa. Can she improve in New Hampshire? If she does, that shows a trajectory very good for her candidacy.
LEMON: Too late for her to make up the entire ground if the polls are right? ROSEN: She doesn't have to win, right?
SEXTON: Bernie as going to win New Hampshire.
LEMON: She doesn't have to win.
KING: Let the people vote.
LEMON: Wait a minute. You're the one that talked about who says the only poll that matters is the poll -- thank you, John. Thank you, everyone. I appreciate it. Van Jones, Hillary Rosen, and John King, Bob Beckel, Angela Rye and Buck Sexton, all of you tonight.
And thank you so much for joining us. That's it for us tonight. I'll see you right back here tomorrow night. "AC 360" starts in just a few moments.