Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

Interview With Former U.S. Senator Rick Santorum; Oregon Standoff; New Gun Control Measures. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired January 4, 2016 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:00:01]

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm also confident that the recommendations that are being made by my team here are ones that are entirely consistent with the Second Amendment and people's lawful right to bear arms.

And we have been very careful recognizing that, although we have a strong tradition of gun ownership in this country, that even those who possess firearms for hunting, for self-protection, and for other legitimate reasons want to make sure that the wrong people don't have them for the wrong reasons.

So, I want to say how much I appreciate the outstanding work that the team's done. Many of them worked over the holidays to get this set of recommendations to me. And I'm looking forward to speaking with the American people over the next several days in more detail about them.

OK? Thank you very much, everyone. Thank you very much. Thank you, guys.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, with that, let's go to the White House to Michelle Kosinski with more on how this is extremely significant, in his final year, the second term, to do this executive action, specifically on guns. We have all been here and covered all of these shootings.

At the same time, one has to presume that this will lead to some sort of, you know, legal challenge from the other side.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that was a very long statement that didn't really give us any detail on how far exactly the president has determined he's able to go within the law.

You heard him say that he believes this is well within his legal authority. That raises some questions there. Is he going to expand background checks to the point that it will include large numbers of people who are not included right now or is it just going to be a recommendation or a guideline?

He also said that this will, he believes, prevent guns from falling into the wrong hands and that it will protect Second Amendment rights. There are still plenty of questions out there. We know that background checks are what he's going to target. Again, the question is what exactly that will entail in detail.

I mean, he's been wanting to do this for years. Background checks themselves have been brought up in bipartisan bills that haven't gone anywhere in Congress, and the White House didn't waste another opportunity to really slam Congress today for not acting before.

I think it's remarkable, when you look at the support out there, pretty broad support, even among Republicans, even among gun owners, to expand background checks. When you look at gun control as a whole and making the laws more strict in general, America's still deeply split on this issue, and lately, slightly more than half, that number's been growing, are opposed to making the laws more strict.

But I think what was interesting to hear was that he's going to unveil this over the course of days, he said, and he mentioned initiatives, plural, so that indicates it's not just about background checks. It could extend into other areas, like additional funding for agencies to enforce existing laws, maybe, as has been recommended and speculated, more tracking by the ATF of guns that are lost and stolen, maybe even expanding gun bans on people who have been convicted of domestic violence.

It just remains to be seen, but we expect we're going to start hearing some of these details by tomorrow, Brooke.

BALDWIN: We will wait for the details. Michelle, thank you so much.

And just a reminder to all of you, as guns is truly a focus here as part of the national conversation this week, President Obama will be joining Anderson Cooper this Thursday for a live town hall on gun control specifically. Do not miss this, 8:00 Eastern here on CNN.

All right, we continue on, hour two. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.

Today, it begins, the official start of the election year, and for the first time in this presidential race, Bill Clinton, there he is, he's out on the campaign trail stumping solo for his wife, Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton. And while he made no mention Donald Trump by name, the former president seemed to be responding to Trump and specifically Trump's plan to temporarily ban Muslims from entering the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The third thing the election is about is how we are going to keep America safe and still keep it America, preserve our individual liberties and our reputation for being an open country, our belief in diversity, and our understanding that one of our great meal tickets in the next 20 years is going to be, there's somebody here from everywhere else.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was Bill Clinton today.

[15:05:00]

Meantime, Donald Trump has been making it crystal clear he has zero problem tossing around Bill Clinton's name. Trump was speaking to Chris Cuomo this morning on "NEW DAY" talking about why Clinton's past improprieties are fair game with regard to his wife's campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, it's very simple. They during the course of the debate and many other times, she was talking about -- she used the word sexist, I'm sexist, and she was using very sort of derogatory terms.

I said, how the hell can she do that when she's got one of the great women abusers of all time sitting at her house waiting for her to come home to dinner?

(CROSSTALK)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Why do you call him one of the great women abusers of all time, when in the past you have said that the impeachment process against him didn't make sense, you said Monica Lewinsky didn't make sense?

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Chris, as a businessman, I got along with everybody. It was always important to defend people when I was -- it was important for me to get along with the Clintons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny is live in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, which could hold its critical caucuses there in 28 short days. CNN political reporter Manu Raju live in Burlington, Iowa, following Senator Rubio, his campaign.

Great to see both of you.

And, Jeff Zeleny, to you first. It's important. When you listen to someone like Bill Clinton, I'm listening to what he's saying, but also what he's not. What did you hear today?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, no question about it. Bill Clinton did not take Donald Trump's bait. Not surprised by this at all.

Bill Clinton knows all too well the pitfalls of anything that he says would be magnified. Of course, we're remembering that right now eight years ago today Hillary Clinton, she woke up and saw that she was the third-place winner, third-place finisher, rather, in the Iowa caucuses. That set up Bill Clinton back in 2008 on some rather sharp comments about Barack Obama. Those hung over that campaign in its entirety. The same thing

would happen in this campaign if Bill Clinton would go after Donald Trump. The Clinton advisers and strategists believe that's exactly what Donald Trump is trying to do, trying sort of to bait them a little bit. He did not do that at all today, but he had a very interesting sort of outlook on this Republican field and he's watching this campaign very closely. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Sometimes, I follow this debate in the presidential elections, especially when I watch the other guys debating, and I think, you know, I don't fit anymore.

First of all, I'm a happy grandfather and I'm not mad at anybody. And, secondly, I thought an election was supposed to be a job interview.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: Bill Clinton says an election is supposed to be a job interview and then he went on to say that voters should pay very close attention, Brooke, to exactly what these Republicans candidates are saying, because all of them will do exactly what they're pledging to do here.

So, having Bill Clinton out on the campaign trail, it may give a little bit of anxiety, some heartburn to some Democrats because it does sort of bring everything up. But on the whole, he's the most popular figure inside this party. He's certainly a helpful figure at this point at least to Hillary Clinton -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, from one part of Iowa to the next, Manu, let's talk Marco Rubio. He's feeling it a little bit today because of this, you know, super PAC supporting Senator Ted Cruz. Let's take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, I know I have a debate, but I have got to get this fantasy football thing right. OK.

NARRATOR: Keep the Promise 1 is responsible for the content of this advertising.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Manu, talk to me more a little bit about this and also I think it's important to bring up the context of the fantasy football line, right, from Marco Rubio and how that camp is responding.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they're pushing back pretty hard, Brooke.

Alex Conant, the spokesman for Marco Rubio, said this is simply a distraction from how Ted Cruz voted to cut defense spending and gut the nation's intelligence programs, and really that's not so far from what Marco Rubio said this morning in New Hampshire, where he delivered a speech on national security.

He said that ISIS is employing lobbyists that supported the law that some Republicans who voted to overhaul national security and intelligence programs. He suggested that Marco Rubio supported that -- that Ted Cruz supported that on the campaign trail and in the Senate.

Right now, Marco Rubio is addressing a crowd here in Burlington, Iowa, trying to -- it's part of an escalating feud between the two camps. Both camps see each other as an impediment to getting to the Republican nomination for president.

[15:10:02]

And the Rubio camp believe that if they have a strong showing here, potentially a third-place showing here, or maybe even could pull off an upset and come out with a victory, that it could give them a lot of momentum heading into New Hampshire. That's why we're seeing this feud really erupt between the two camps right now.

BALDWIN: Manu Raju, thank you.

We see, as you pointed out, Marco Rubio speaking over your right shoulder. Thank you so much, as we're all over the trail here, as we're officially first Monday 2016. Let's go.

Republican presidential candidate Chris Christie, he has just commented on Bill Clinton's first solo campaign appearance for his wife, and Governor Christie started with a little sarcasm and then turned somber.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R-NJ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let us remember that despite all that you heard today in Nashua and will see tonight undoubtedly on the news from President Clinton about his wife, I would suggest to you he's not the most objective source, and that it is time for us to open our eyes and not to think about the world as we wish it was, but to deal with the world as we see it is. And it is a dark and dangerous place right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now, Kathie Obradovich, political columnist for "The Des Moines Register," and David Chalian, our great CNN political director.

Great to see both of you. Happy new year.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Happy new year, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Happy beginning of what will be a crazy year. David Chalian, to you first. Listen, everyone and their mother

is in Iowa right now, less than a month before February 1 and the caucuses and I love something you said earlier. You know, if you're trying to predict exactly which way this race is going to go, to quote you, you're lying.

CHALIAN: True.

I think we enter this sort of home stretch, these final four weeks, this sprint to the Iowa caucuses less certain about sort about sort of how the nomination process is going to unfold than we have in cycles past.

I do think you saw Chris Christie right there doing something rather shrewd. He was inserting himself into the news cycle because he understood that with Bill Clinton in New Hampshire making his first solo trip for Hillary Clinton that all...

BALDWIN: We'd be talking about it.

CHALIAN: ... all the television stations were going to covering that and now Chris Christie found a way by commenting on that to make sure he was part of the story today as well. So, that was probably a pretty shrewd move on his part up there.

BALDWIN: That was Christie.

What about, Kathie, Ted Cruz? He is in your state for a solid week, and he's been certainly rising in the polls, reportedly just hired Huckabee's former spokesperson Alice Stewart. Remember, she left that campaign and we're all kind of scratching our heads over that. Now we know.

What do you think? You're there on the ground covering politics, and what will it take to give him or really any of the candidates that final special surge?

KATHIE OBRADOVICH, "THE DES MOINES REGISTER": Yes, so the old saying in Iowa is you have to organize, organize, organize and then get hot at the end.

What all of these candidates are trying to do is make sure that they're hot in Iowa at the end. Ted Cruz went into the holidays with a lead, but he's got to hold onto that for a month before caucus night. Donald Trump, he has led in Iowa until recently and it looks like he's in a battle for first place with Ted Cruz.

This discussion between Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, all of these people are trying to get one of the coveted three tickets out of Iowa that helps launch candidates not only to the nomination, but to the presidency.

BALDWIN: What about also -- I know we were just looking at Chris Christie and he was in New Hampshire, but, David Chalian, we know that at first it seemed his campaign was all New Hampshire, New Hampshire, New Hampshire, and now apparently they're splitting time between Iowa, New Hampshire, and I'm wondering, do you think he thinks he has a shot there?

(CROSSTALK)

CHALIAN: I'm sorry, Kathie. Go ahead.

OBRADOVICH: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, David. I didn't mean to cut in on you either.

I do think he thinks he has a shot in Iowa. He has some establishment support from Terry Branstad's people, the mainstream governor, Republican governor of Iowa. And, you know, he is, I think, getting bigger crowds here and also seeing, I think, an opportunity to do better than people expect in the mainstream Republican lane.

It's not necessarily whether you win. It's who you beat in Iowa.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Were you about to say the opposite, David?

CHALIAN: No, no, no. I think it's key to watch. I do think Chris Christie is still a New Hampshire or bust candidate. I really don't think Iowa is a big part of his path to the nomination necessarily, but I think it is important what Kathie is saying there.

BALDWIN: OK.

CHALIAN: It's not always about just going in to win. He wants to be ahead of Marco Rubio, ahead of Jeb Bush, ahead of John Kasich in that establishment alternative to Trump and Cruz wing of the party.

[15:15:00]

CHALIAN: And one way to make sure that Marco Rubio doesn't sort of rocket out of Iowa with some momentum heading to New Hampshire, which is the most important state for Chris Christie, is to try to keep your eye on Marco Rubio in Iowa and stay there and have enough of a presence there to provide enough of an option from that wing that Marco Rubio doesn't soak up all that market share.

BALDWIN: Can you just -- David, just staying with you, 20,000- foot view, listen, we will all be talking about Iowa for the next 28 days. But in the end, whoever gets the nomination, how much does Iowa really matter?

CHALIAN: I think Iowa matters a lot. I know that they don't always vote and produce the actual guy or gal that ends up in the Oval Office, but it is a winnowing process and the momentum out of Iowa is huge.

People will say, hey, what about President Mike Huckabee or President Rick Santorum? Yes, I understand they didn't make it to the nomination, but it was an integral part to the process as John McCain and Mitt Romney did make their process to the nomination. That test in Iowa is important and real and I think that it will be no less important this time around. BALDWIN: You mentioned Santorum. He's coming on in a matter of

minutes, would still like to be president.

David Chalian, thank you. Kathie Obradovich, thank you so, so much.

Coming up next, more on our breaking news, the armed activists, these protesters holding this government building hostage, this federal government building hostage in Oregon, just listed their demands. But why aren't the feds really doing anything? It's a lot to unpack there.

Also, a possible game changer in the war against ISIS. Here you now have Saudi Arabia cutting all ties with Iran, as protesters have set fire to the Saudi Embassy in Tehran. What could happen next and might the U.S. step in?

And is this masked terrorist the new face of ISIS? A chilling new video has surfaced with a warning specifically to the West. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:15]

BALDWIN: They are armed and they have taken over a federal government building and they say they are prepared to defend themselves if necessary.

I'm talking about the group of anti-government protesters who are now essentially hunkered down at the federal wildlife refuge in Southeastern Oregon. So far, they have been there for two days. They say they could be there for more days, months, and they have even said possibly years here.

Let me back up. The situation all started Saturday with a rally in support of two ranchers. That rally has since turned into an armed occupation. These ranchers, by the way, Dwight and Steven Hammond, are set to report to prison at any moment today to serve time for arson.

The father and son were convicted on setting fires on federal land, but want to point out the Hammonds have now distanced themselves from the armed protesters.

Let's go to Paul Vercammen, who has been all over this for us in Oregon.

Paul, we just heard last hour from this group, who have apparently now have a name, gave a news conference, and tell us more about who they are.

PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, as you pointed out, there was a rally in town. They splintered off from the rally.

One thing that's clear is, here at this sort of protest or occupation, they all do agree that the Hammonds should not be facing these indictment charges going to prison again for arson on their own property.

Where the division is a lot of people in the town say they don't think this was the best way to go about it. The leader of this group, Ammon Bundy, came up just a short time ago and he clarified for us what he thinks his group should be called. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMMON BUNDY, ARMED PROTESTER: You have asked us for what is our name, and other than just citizens that care and feel like it's time that we make a stand, to protect our human rights, we didn't really know what to say, but we felt that we'd give ourselves a name, at least so that we could be reported that way, and that we could be more organized in that effort, and that would be Citizens for Constitutional Freedom.

Our purpose, as we have shown, is to restore and defend the Constitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERCAMMEN: And Ammon Bundy reiterating he thinks the federal government has overreached its bounds here and throughout the United States, saying that way too much land is owned by the federal government and not the states, and not individual ranchers, wants to see more of that turned back in that direction.

He vowed a peaceful protest. So far, it has been. Even if you look above here, you will see that in that tower there's somebody sort of keeping watch over all of this, and when we went down into the compound, one-story buildings, unassuming, we did not see anybody brandishing any weapons, nobody was threatening anything.

And on the other side, this might be described as a standoff, but there certainly are no law enforcement officers of any stripe involved in the standoff right now and in talking to people off camera, local people, ranchers, they say support these guys for defending their neighbors, the Hammonds, but they think all of this is just a little weird was the word one man used -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Talking to someone else who lives in the area and he said I have no idea who these people are. Paul Vercammen, thank you so much for being there for us and setting it up.

Let's broaden it out. And let me we bring in Danny Coulson. He commanded the FBI division in Oregon and who dealt with all the different individuals involved in this armed protest.

Danny, perhaps you can help us answer the question of the who, but also the why. What I'm really curious about is, it's not a standoff, because to have a standoff you have to have the other side present and from what I understand there are no law enforcement on the ground.

I know the feds are monitoring, but what is the strategy in this non-response response from law enforcement?

DANNY COULSON, FORMER FBI AGENT: I think it's the perfect response here.

BALDWIN: Tell me why.

COULSON: As to who they are -- well, first of all, you don't want to heighten tension here, and these individuals have not committed a crime, except for the two arsonists. They're here to demonstrate for a cause that many people support.

And I think the fact that they have guns could be problematic, but as long as law enforcement low-keys this thing, downplays it, lets them have their day in court, so to speak, let them speak to the media, let them give their cause statement, and then when it comes to it, the FBI needs to negotiate with these people and they have a lot of experience negotiating with groups like this.

I negotiated with them many, many years ago, and a face-to-face negotiation with an experienced agent who want to defuse this situation, who probably has the same -- maybe the same goals that they do, a constitutional America, but doesn't exactly like the way they're going about it.

[15:25:01]

So I think that the least -- probably less here is more and better, as opposed to rolling in heavily armed people at this time. It's just not -- it hasn't gotten to that situation yet.

BALDWIN: But -- and, correct me, but is hunkering down in this federal wildlife refuge, this is a federal building. Therefore, is that not illegal?

COULSON: It is illegal. But you have to use common sense here. There are a lot of things that are illegal, but is it worth an armed intervention to resolve it?

In my view, and I'm thinking your view, it's not. The way to do this is to defuse it. The FBI's dealt with these people in Montana, Arkansas, all over the world, all over the United States, I should say, and most of the time, they come out the right way as long as you negotiate, negotiate in good faith, let them have their voice be heard by the media, and then they will go away. After a while, they will get tired of being there and they want get -- they will want to go to get a cigarette, they will want to get something to eat and they will actually -- it happens.

They actually will go away.

BALDWIN: Well, now we laugh about that, and eventually it will just -- it will be over, but then I remember covering that Nevada ranch standoff, what was that, 2014, and that was the father, Cliven Bundy, and armed protesters and all these 1,000 or so people all showed up and folks were Tasered.

And so I have to imagine law enforcement has what happened then in the back of their heads as they're responding to this.

COULSON: Well, I think they do, and Tasering somebody that gets disruptive on the perimeter is a lot different from having a firefight. We don't want that. They don't want it.

These people keep talking about people are going to die. I think they're saying that. They never seen people die. It's one thing to be dramatic. It's another thing to be realistic, and after a while, they have businesses, they have ranches to run and I think if we do it the right way, the FBI will, law enforcement is very professional in Oregon.

I was out there for many years. They will defuse this thing and these people will go back about their business and everybody will be OK.

BALDWIN: All right, Danny Coulson, we shall see. Thank you so much. Appreciate your time.

COULSON: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

COULSON: Happy new year.

BALDWIN: Coming up -- you, too.

It is riddled with secret tunnels and hidden bombs. CNN takes a rare firsthand look inside of the war-torn city of Ramadi just days after it was liberated from ISIS control.

And, next, four weeks to go. We will talk with a presidential candidate who knows what it takes to win the Iowa caucuses. He is Rick Santorum. He will join me here on set to talk about the state of the race, the campaign, and which Republican candidate he is now going after.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)