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Trump's Message Of Fear; Does Trump's Story Add Up?; Special Coverage Of Paris Attacks; France Steps Up Attacks Against ISIS; Late NFL Legend Frank Gifford Discovered To Have Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy Posthumously; Tensions Between Russia And Turkey After Russian Warplane Shot Down; Video Of Chicago Teen Being Shot By Police Released. Aired 3-3:30p ET
Aired November 25, 2015 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: The two -- OK. So, Peter, to Scottie's point with regard to the poll and how, you know, you have these majority of Americans who are fearful -- you know, you also say the Republicans won't abandon Trump because of this increased focus -- because of what's happened here, of course, in Paris.
You know, terrorism is dominating headlines globally, domestically. Explain that. Some believe trumps ratings might actually, you know, maybe change with this increased focus on terror.
PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right, because I think Trump's core message is that somehow he can build some kind of wall, real or metaphorical, between the United States and the dangerous things in the world, whether it's illegal immigration from Mexico or terrorists coming into our borders, and even our own Muslim population here in the United States.
And so he -- the fear helps him. What's different between what he what other Republicans are saying is that they are focusing on how America should respond overseas, whereas I think he has a kind of a quick fix answer, which is that basically, if we simply start taking away the rights of Muslims here in the United States, that will protect us. I think it's wrong.
BEINART: I also think it's very, very dangerous but it's working.
BALDWIN: Scottie, you're shaking your head.
SCOTTIE HUGHES, NEWS DIRECTOR, TEA PARTY NEWS NETWORK: Even CNN...
BALDWIN: Go ahead. Go ahead, Scottie.
HUGHES: ...in 2009 did a great, great story on homegrown hate, where Anderson Cooper and Drew Griffin admitted that there were Muslims, revolutionary Muslims, here in America in New York and New Jersey who celebrated 9/11, who were here to take out America. So it's not necessarily made up thought. You don't have to connect
the tea leaves to realize that there are some terrorist issues here in America as well as internationally. We just want to sever those ties, something Donald Trump is doing.
And you know what? I'm happy that he's talking about securing my family first before worrying about all of those on the other side. And that's exactly what -- whether it's build a wall -- but he's also talking economic with jobs. Just right now, terrorism is a hot topic the headlines, hence why this is the dominant issue.
BEINART: Right, that is homegrown hate. There is homegrown hate against Muslims who want to threaten the United States. And Donald Trump also represents a certain species of homegrown hates when he talks about Latinos as rapists and when he says that thousands of Muslims in New Jersey cheered for 9/11 even though -- even though (inaudible)...
HUGHES: (inaudible) talking about illegals that are here.
SCOTTIE: ...excuse me. Sorry. I didn't -- I didn't...
HUGHES: There are facts to back up what he said.
BEINART: ...ma'am, I didn't interrupt you.
Every single news organization that has looked into that has said that was untrue, and yet he continues to say that even though he is demonizing...
HUGHES: You mean to tell me there is no illegal Hispanics here raping people?
BEINART: No, no, no, I'm not...
HUGHES: Or killing people, because, you know...
BEINART: I was actually -- if you -- sorry. If you'd been listening, I was actually talking about his claim about thousands of Muslims in New Jersey cheering 9/11. It's been debunked by everyone. It's a very dangerous claim at a time when about one-third of Republicans, according to polls, want Islam to be illegal in the United States. To say that kind of thing demonizing a group of people who are already suffering, very, very dangerous and irresponsible, and, I think, hate- filled.
HUGHES: But here's the deal, it's one detail on the campaign trail. Granted, like I said, I'm not looking to (inaudible)...
(CROSSTALK) BALDWIN: Quickly, Scottie, and then we've got to go.
HUGHES: ...but it's thousands around the world. President Obama said, "57 states." Mistakes happen.
BEINART: This is a much...
BALDWIN: All right, Scottie, now (inaudible)...
BEINART: ...this is a much more serious issue, especially when you're talking about registering Muslims in this country.
BALDWIN: I know you're on opposite ends of the spectrum here both of you. Scottie Hughes and Peter Beinart, very, very different opinions. I am glad we hear both. We're talking about claims.
I want to move on and get the facts of what's happening here in Paris. I appreciate both of you.
I want to move on. Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin here.
Special coverage continues on the terror attacks out of Paris. Today we have more breaking threats here --breaking details about one of the suspects investigators are trying to locate. A source close to the investigation tells CNN that Mohamed Abrini traveled to Syria last year, but his return trip to Europe apparently went up to take undetected, which is obviously quite concerning for investigators and counterterrorism officials.
Keep in mind, this guy I'm talking about, Abrini, this is the same man who was caught on camera at a gas station as he was traveling from Brussels to Paris with this other person investigators want to find -- this other fugitive, Salah Abdelsalam, days before these attacks here in Paris.
An international arrest warrant is now out for Abrini. Another huge concern for investigators. They are watching, and by the way, have been for years we're learning, watching for signs of radicalization among airports and public transit workers here in Paris. A French counterterrorism source says monitoring has been going on, as I said, for years, but it is definitely getting more attention in the aftermath of the attacks.
Now it just so happens that one of the men who attacked the Bataclan theater -- that concert -- had been a bus driver here until three years ago. Also today, France is stepping up attacks against ISIS even more, so both in Iraq and Syria. They have now carrying out hundreds of airstrikes.
French leaders say there is no alternative. ISIS must be destroyed. And that was precisely the same message echoed back home in the United States by President Obama from the White House, standing there reminding Americans how the U.S. and other nations are going to take out this terror organization.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So far, our military and our partners have conducted more than 8,000 airstrikes on ISIS strongholds and equipment. Those airstrikes, along with the efforts of our partners on the ground, have taken out key leaders, have taken back territory from ISIL in both Iraq and Syria.
We continue to work to choke off their financing and their supply lines and counter their recruitment in a messaging.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Let's begin with our CNN international correspondent Ivan Watson who is here in Paris.
And beginning with this piece of information, Ivan, you know, this driver, Abrini, who was in Syria, came back to, you know, ultimately, France and came back without any, you know, warnings or red flags being raised, which has to be extraordinarily concerning for these investigators.
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, and another problem here, Brooke, is he's not the only suspect to have that kind of story behind him. One of the suicide bombers at the stadium of France where Mohamed Abrini is believed to have dropped the suicide bomber off at, another man named Beloh Hadsi (ph) well, he was wanted by Belgian authorities with an international arrest warrants since the beginning of 2015 after he was believed to have traveled from Belgium to go to Syria to become a Jihadi to fight alongside ISIS.
So you have a couple of people here who went to Syria, and then investigators and authorities did not know that they had gotten back into Europe, and that's a big, big concern right now for European leaders. It's part of the reason why the French president Francois Hollande is trying to push a new diplomatic and government initiative with other partners here in Europe. It's part of why he's meeting with the German Chancellor Angela Merkel, as we speak.
They laid flowers here at this makeshift memorial for the victims, and they're talking about trying to find better ways to track people, to push through a program called a Passenger Name Recognition System that would allow European governments and authorities to better share the names of people on planes and riding on trains within Europe's internal borders.
They're also trying to discuss ways to better control the external borders where -- which have been overwhelmed by hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants pouring in day after day. All of these presenting really big and serious challenges that the Europeans say they have to tackle with extreme urgency in the wake of these attacks.
BALDWIN: Most like the more information, the more you realize all of the challenges facing all of these investigators here. Ivan, thank you.
I want to begin with that and bring in CNN Law Enforcement Analyst, Art Roderick, who is in Washington, sitting -- he's also the former Assistant Director of the US Marshal's Office. And also sitting with me here in Paris, journalist Stefan De Vries.
So, gentlemen, thank you both so much for being with me.
And, I think, Stefan, just beginning with you, I mean, talking to Tim Lister a couple of minutes ago here in Paris, it's also like I'm reminded of all these new faces and new suspects. There's also 10 people there now apparently looking for indulgence with the potential clients within that country's borders. And it's, like, what we don't know, I think, that is most frightening -- that obviously, they had help and that they were able to come in -- this Abrini guy was able to come back in from Syria and help him pull off what they pulled off here in Paris.
STEFAN DE VRIES, JOURNALIST: Absolutely, it was a huge organization. They needed a lot of people, logistical help, of course, cars. The apartment was also rented by a friend of a friend. It was a very big network.
There are a lot of Belgian people who lived in France. French people lived in Belgium. And, of course, this kind of -- this operation at such a scale, you need a lot of people to help with.
Maybe some of the people didn't really know what they were up to, but it's clear that the links are very important because they all grew up in the same area. They knew each other. They were either family of each other, friends. They went to school maybe with each other. So this is part of a larger network, and as the investigation is ongoing, we're learning more and more details, and some of them are very chilling and even frightening sometimes.
BALDWIN: Beyond frightening. Even here in Paris, when you hear sirens, people are -- the tone is different with people. There is pause.
Art, to you, you know, with these 10 new suspects in Belgium and this manhunt underway for them, what are investigators doing? Take me behind the scenes of that manhunt. How are they even beginning to find these people?
ARTHUR RODERICK, RETIRED ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE U.S. MARSHAL'S OFFICE: Well, that's been a problem from the very beginning, Brooke. As you know, there are certain areas over there in Belgian and in France but law enforcement just doesn't go into, and they have no connectivity with that community. So I'm not surprised that there hasn't been phone calls between those specific neighborhoods back to the police letting them know what's going on.
So I think in this particular case, they're having to get information post the attack. They didn't have any intel prior, or little intel, if any at all, prior, and I think this is just the beginning. They're going to be finding more and more suspects as they peel this very complex onion back.
BALDWIN: And the fact that, you know, in northern France and in Belgium it's quite easy to get guns. They're coming in from Balkans.
BALDWIN: They're getting smuggled in. And when you think of the bloodshed that was, you know, had -- that happen here in Paris two Friday nights ago, it was really -- it was the guns.
You know, you were making a interesting point we were talking a moment ago in commercial break that you know, now that we're learning for years now the French authorities have been looking into potential Islamic radicalization among workers at Paris' airports...
BALDWIN: ...and public transit. And you're saying that not that big of a deal. Why?
VRIES: Well, these are isolated people basically. You must know that the two international airports of Paris, they employee over 130,000 people. All these people are vetted. Maybe not as thoroughly as they should do, but the incidents, or the people who are radicalizing these -- maybe we're talking about 10 or 20 people.
The same thing with the Metro operations, the RATP. That's the name of the company.
VRIES: It's also active in D.C. The tramway in D.C. is operated by the Paris Metro. Employees 60,000 people.
There have been incidents of people, like, praying during Ramadan, for instance, and it has led to some quarrels amongst colleagues. These people have been fired, but it's true that the intelligence services know that there are some people who are radicalizing and...
BALDWIN: One of the attackers of the Bataclan drove buses for (inaudible)...
VRIES: But the thing is, these are huge employers of many, many thousands of people who work there, so it's very hard to vet everybody. And basically, unfortunately, they also reflect the society, and of course we have radical elements in this society, so it's almost logical that we find them back in large companies.
BALDWIN: Stefan De Vries, thank you very much.
Art Roderick, thank you.
Next, breaking news involving that Russian jet that was shot down. Turkey now releasing audio of an alleged warning to those pilots before their jets blew up. The surviving Russian pilot, by the way, is telling something completely different.
Also ahead, more breaking news involving football legend Frank Gifford. We are now hearing the stunning discovery made after his death involving his NFL career and concussions.
You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin live in Paris.
BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
Now, we are following breaking news about the late NFL legend and sports broadcaster Frank Gifford. Gifford's family has now confirmed that he suffered from CTE, saying in a statement, "While Frank passed away from natural causes this past August at the age of 84, our suspicions that he was suffering from the debilitating effects of head trauma were confirmed when a team of pathologists recently diagnosed his condition as that of chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE, a progressive, degenerative brain disease. The deadly brain condition that we now know afflicted many professional football players, CTE can only be confirmed after death."
So I have Coy Wire and Christine Brennan joining me both on the phone here.
I mean, Coy, to you first, this is -- this is a huge revelation now from the Gifford family.
COY WIRE, SPORTS BROADCASTER: It really is, Brooke.
The legend, a guy who not only was an all-star player on the field and NFL's most valuable player during his playing days, but one of the first sports stars to transition in sportscasting -- an idol to many, including me, who played -- who played the game and tied to walk in his huge footsteps.
I talked -- I had conversations with a very high-ranking NFL official this morning, and he said the NFL was very upset with an incident that recently happened with the Rams quarterback, Case Keenum, right, and the Rams' mishandling of that situation when that quarterback got his head smashed into the turf, then seemingly semi-responsive state -- struggle just to get to his feet. He was not removed from the Rams' game on Sunday, not even for a play.
We know that they had conference calls with all 32 teams last night and with all the head trainers to reiterate the details of their concussion protocols. So we look at the life of someone like Frank Gifford, and we're yet again reminded in this situation of the many who have played this game and that they have played the game maybe too long through injury when they maybe should not have, and it reminds us that we have to change the culture when it comes to concussions.
A sad story to hear, but one that, as his family stated, could maybe be an inspiration and continue the ongoing conversation that needs to be had when it comes to this chronic traumatic encephalopathy affecting anyone involved with football at any level. BALDWIN: Yes, I'm glad you brought up the Rams' QB, the trainers didn't yank him, you know, after the huge hit. The NFL actually has now officially call that a failure.
But let me focus, Christine, again, on Frank Gifford. Your reaction to this news?
CHRISTINE BRENNAN, USA TODAY SPORTS COLUMNIST: Brooke, it's very sad news. I agree with Coy with everything he said.
And let's look at what this is set against. It set against the backdrop where in the next to the concussion movie will come out. It's creating Oscar buzz. People will go and see this movie. So you've got that. You've got something, again, crossing over from sports into culture.
And I think Frank Gifford is also the definition of that -- as we mentioned, you know, a superstar, went into sportscasting, the Hollywood, you know. Frank Gifford is perhaps the biggest name for everyone, for -- from Topeka to Toledo to Spokane -- of someone now who has had PTE.
You know, you've got Tony Dorsett -- names that have come out -- Jim McMahon with concussion like symptoms -- of course, Junior Seau, who killed himself. But Frank Gifford takes this to another level. And once -- we've seen with other issues, for example, Rock Hudson and HIV -- once you put a very famous face on something horrible, it does tend to have an impact unlike anything else. And I think, once again, we're seeing...
BALDWIN: But, Christine...
BRENNAN: ...that course taking us to a national conversation.
BALDWIN: Yes, to an impact. But think about it, here we are only the Thanksgiving day -- I mean, I don't know about you, but I have a lot of, you know, friends who plan on eating turkey and watching football, and when you think of all the eyeballs on the screens for any kind of, you know, NFL game, it is huge. And people, I think, for the most part, aren't going to be thinking about Frank Gifford and about CTE.
BRENNAN: Right, I don't disagree with you on that. It is our entertainment. But I think, again, this happens over time. And this is a very big deal today, and the fact that we're talking about it today is important.
But no, does it change how much we want to see hard hits in football? No, but I do think it's having an impact on the national conversation, and I think this kind of story will continue to have that impact.
BALDWIN: Will continue the conversation with both of you, Christine Brennan and Coy Wire. Thanks to both of you for calling in. I appreciate that.
Coming up next, let's get to our breaking news here involving the Russian jet shot down. Turkey now releasing audio of an alleged warning to those pilots before the jets blew up, but we're also hearing now from the surviving pilot, who tells a very different story.
BALDWIN: More breaking news here. Turkey's military released an audio recording that it claims captured its air control warnings to a Russian warplane before Turkey shot down the Russian plane near its border with Syria. Now this audio recording is coming in just hours after the rescued Russian copilot said -- and I'm quoting him -- that "there were no warnings from Turkey before the war plane was shot down."
Here is the audio that we now have Turkey's military.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: [foreign language]
BALDWIN: Russia says Turkey's downing of its warplane Tuesday appears to be a planned provocation. Russian plans to deploy defense missile systems to its airbase on Syria's coast that is less than 30 miles from the Turkish border.
Joining me first here, I have correspondent Ian Lee, who is live in Istanbul, and we also have senior international correspondent, Matthew Chance, live in Moscow.
But Ian, to you first there in Turkey, why didn't the Turkish military release this audio recording sooner, you know, hours after the Russian plane was shot down?
IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we really don't know the exact answer to that, but it could be that they didn't feel like it was necessary at the time. They have been releasing little pieces of the puzzle, backing their claim that this Russian jet did, in fact, violate their airspace. They released a map that they said shows that crossing into its airspace for about two miles and then -- and then, you see it crossing there for about less than 30 seconds.
So today, we are getting this new audio, but you can -- when you listen to it, it is a bit garbled, so there can be some confusion there on the Russian pilot's side. But this audio, they're saying, is proof that they did try to warn this jet up to 10 times not to enter their airspace.
BALDWIN: (Inaudible) Matthew, on Russian state TV we're now hearing from this pilot, who is absolutely saying not only, A, was he, what -- in enemy airspace -- not enemy but in Turkish airspace, but also he says there was no warning.
MATTHEW CHANCE, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, his words, unlike this recording, were very clear to hear, and he said very concisely that look, there's no way that we crossed into Turkish airspace. He was a navigator on the plane that was shot down. He said he had the radar in front of him. He could see the line where the Turkish border is indicated. He didn't cross it he said.
He also said that there were no communications, despite this recording we've heard -- no communications from the Turkish F-16s or air traffic control in southern Turkey. He said the first they knew about being intercepted was when they tail of their aircraft was blown off by a rocket fired from an F-16 -- a missile file from an F-16 -- and they started plunging to earth in that fireball. We seen the pictures of the dramatic images of that taking place.
And so a very compelling testimony from the Russian navigator who survived this shoot down, unlike his pilot, who didn't make it to the ground alive.
BALDWIN: (Inaudible) was investigating. We'll follow it.
Matthew and Ian, thank you.
Coming up, we have to take you to Chicago because the police officer there now facing first-degree murder charges in the shooting death of a teenager, his attorneys are pushing back. They're selling their side of the story as questions remains about why it took more than a year for police to release the dash cam video and to charge this man.
BALDWIN: I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN. And we have to talk what's happened in Chicago.
Sixteen shots in 15 seconds. That is what a Chicago police officer fired at Laquan McDonald during the teenager's final moments alive. And that is what is seen in dash cam video the police have just recently released.
A warning, obviously it's tough to look at. Because it happened so quickly, we've slowed down just a portion of it. Keep in mind this happened in October of last year. It was October 20th. Police were out. They were responding to a call of this young man, McDonald, wielding a three-inch knife.
Here is a piece of the video. It was released, but there's no audio on it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: As expected, once the video came out, so that the protesters. People had real concerns that this footage going public could rip Chicago apart.
Let me begin here with Rosa Flores, who's live in Chicago. And the question here as far as the city, how have protesters reacted now that the video's out there? ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, protesters are saying that
they're disturbed by these images, Brooke. As you might imagine, this video shows a 17-year-old being shot and killed by a police officer, so they're upset. They've taken to the streets. They've demonstrated. They've made demands about transparency, not only about this case but others in this city.
And then you've got the defense attorney for this police officer saying that he responded in self-defense, that the officer responded in self-defense, and that all he wants is a fair trial. He says that this video does not tell the full story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL HERBERT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And at the time in which he had fired his weapon, he had already been made aware of the fact that this individual had been walking through the neighborhood and waving a knife, had caused a disturbance at a couple of businesses, had stabbed the windshield of a squad car where police officers were involved, had popped the tire of a squad -- excuse me -- popped the tire of a squad car where police officers were sitting in that squad car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FLORES: Now, but the timing of the release of this video, there's been a lot of questions about why. Why wait a year to release the video?
According to authorities here, they say that there's a simultaneous investigation, both state and federal authorities investigating, but there was a court order by a civil judge asking for the release of this video after a journalist asked for it to be released. And so prosecutors told us yesterday, Brooke, she said that she was going to wait until the end of the investigation when both state and federal authorities were ready to present their charges. And they said, you know, because of the release of this video, we feel compelled to come forward and announce the first degree murder charges.
BALDWIN: OK, Rosa, thank you.
I want to stay in Chicago because this now ex-Chicago officer here charge here of first degree murder, Jason Van Dyke, he has faced complaints in the past. In fact, there've been 20 allegations against him for offenses like excessive force and verbal abuse. This is according to the police accountability clinic at the University of Chicago law school. The clinic found Chicago PD never found Van Dyke at fault. And his case, by the way, is far from the only one like it in Chicago.
Reportedly, Chicago police have shot and killed 70 people since 2010, 46 were African-American. And since 2004, the department has shelled out half a billion dollars in police legal claims.
With me now, Georgetown law professor, Paul Butler who used to serve as federal prosecutor.
So Paul, nice to see you again. Let's just begin with we know Laquan McDonald was killed. This was October 20th of last year. Thirteen months later, this police officer is charged. The prosecutor said officer-involved shootings are complicated, you know. She wanted to make sure she got it right as far as why wait so long. As a lawyer, does that sound reasonable to you?
PAUL BUTLER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: You know, if the evidence is compelling enough to sustain first degree murder charges, you have to wonder why it took a year to bring the case and why until yesterday Officer Van Dyke was a sworn officer on the Chicago police department.
You know, the graphic number of shots -- this cop fired every single bullet in his gun, 16 times -- it's disturbing. Legally, that's not that significant. Well, what's more troubling is that none of the other six cops on the scene fired a single shot. And Officer Van Dyke responded 30 seconds later those shots were fired. So you do have to wonder what was going on with him. Did he reasonably perceive a threat? Because that's the standard.
BALDWIN: I'm glad you brought that up, because that's something I've heard other people saying, you know, listen, no other officers were firing. There is just this one officer.
I want you to hear -- Paul, I want you to hear the attorney for this police officer explaining how it's possible the shooting was justified when he shot McDonald 16 times. Fifteen of those shots were after the teen hit the pavement. Here he was.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERBERT: I'm going to explain it exactly the way science has explained it and various studies have explained it. A police officer with average skills with a firearm can fire four to five shots in one second.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: In your experience, do juries understand how an officer who doesn't, you know, often fire in the line of duty can shoot so many times in such a small period of time?
BUTLER: You know, Brooke, they usually do. That's why in the last 10 years there have been fewer than 50 prosecutors of any police officer for shooting in the line of duty. And most of those prosecutions have not resulted in convictions. Jurors are especially sympathetic to police officers. They think, even if they made a mistake, they were just doing their job. So it's really hard to get convictions in these cases.
You know, one thing that might be going on with this extreme charge of first degree murder is the prosecutor might be hoping that Officer Van Dyke will plead guilty to a lower charge like manslaughter or reckless endangerment.
BALDWIN: Yes. We will see.
Paul Butler, thank you.
BUTLER: Always a pleasure.
BALDWIN: Coming up, how did they hit the wrong target?
How did they hit the wrong target? An investigation reveals what went wrong when a U.S. airstrike mistakenly hit an Afghan hospital last month, killing 30 people. New details when we come back.
You're watching CNN.
BALDWIN: A U.S. airstrike that accidentally killed 30 people at a Doctors Without Borders hospital last month in Afghanistan is being blamed on human error. A top U.S. commander there tells CNN that military personnel inadvertently aimed at the wrong target. They were trying to hit a suspected Taliban site.
CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson joins me now live from Washington. And Nic, the thing is, not only did they hit the wrong target, but apparently some of their communication systems, they weren't working properly.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is what were learning now. Human error compounded by systems and systems errors or problems -- that was the communications equipment -- so there was a breakdown in communications with the headquarters of the aircraft that was carrying out the strikes. The headquarters understood that the forces -- the U.S. Special Forces that were on the ground in the town that night, they were aiding and advising Afghan Special Forces on the ground -- that they were -- the U.S. forces were a direct and imminent threat.
So that was one of -- that was one of the problems, procedural problems, because this location was incorrectly identified. Aboard the aircraft it was being identified by its physical appearance and description rather than the grid coordinates.
Doctors without Borders are saying that this opens up more questions than it does actually answer issues here. They say that this is a catalog of errors, a violation of the wars of law -- the laws of war is what they're saying. They -- you know, they are questioning that this investigation is essentially got to the bottom of it here. They say they were astounded that the Air Force could have been operating in this way without the correct communications equipment, operating essentially, they say, without eyes -- without eyes on the ground.
So the Doctors without Borders, this really continues to be an issue. This is not going to lay it to rest for them, but they are getting answers here. Of course, it all occurred in the -- in the heat of an intensive battle by Afghan forces supported, advised by U.S. Special Forces on the ground. We take this very important strategic town from the Taliban who'd overrun the first town district center that they'd taken control of in the past 13 or 14 years.
BALDWIN: We know that as you were reporting, you know, when this first happened, Doctors Without Borders wanted an independent and impartial investigation. You know, you touched on a lot of the themes, but they have, you know, released a statement -- they being Doctors Without Borders, in part. It reads, "It is shocking that an attack can be carried out when the U.S. forces have neither has eyes on a target nor access to a strike list and have malfunctioning communications systems. It appears 30 were killed and hundreds of thousands of people are denied lifesaving care in Kunduz simply because the MSF Hospital was the closest large building to an open field and roughly matched a description of an intended target."
Do you actually think that this impartial investigation that they're calling for will happen, Nic?
ROBERTSON: No, it won't, because it hasn't happened so far. The investigation by the U.S. military seems to have answered a lot of -- a lot of questions for a lot of people over this. It's a very damning indictment of the way the military was operating that night. I mean, it really is a catalog of problems that clearly will have to be and are being addressed.
But, no, Doctors Without Borders seem very unlikely to get this investigation international independent that they are requesting.
BALDWIN: Nic, thank you.
Nic Robertson for us in Washington.
Just ahead, more on our breaking news. We're getting word the fugitive driver in this Paris attacks made an alarming trip months before the massacre here in the City of Lights.
Also ahead, as Americans hit the roads and airports right now ahead of Thanksgiving, new fears about extremists infiltrating airports and transit systems. We're back after this.
BALDWIN: A father lost his wife and children and now finds himself all alone in this world. Other victims in the massacres here in Paris despondent. Counselling services here in Paris are inundated with hundreds of calls each and every day, cases like those.
I spoke with the Carole Damiani, the head of the main government sponsored organization for victims Paris Aide aux Victims. The group has doubled its psychologists on hands since the November 13th attacks -- psychologist who is are still treating victims, by the way, of the Charlie Hebdo attack back in January.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAROLE DAMIANI, HEAD, PARIS AIDE AUX VICTIMS (through text): When the January attacks happened, people were targeted. They were attacked because they journalist, because they were Jewish, because they were -- whereas now, it is anyone. And people identified for more the victims because people feel concerned that they could do to a shop tomorrow and be the victim of an attack.
BALDWIN: Could you give us specific stories without betraying the confidentiality of patients of what kinds of calls you've been getting since the attacks two Friday nights ago?
DAMIANI: We received a lot of calls from families that were confronted with death. For example, a father who told us his wife and two children went missing. What we can do for them is help them not be alone. It is very difficult to be suffering yourself and having to deliver such difficult message.
BALDWIN: Everyone somehow was touched by what happened, the attacks. And I'm wondering how do you make people feel better?
DAMIANI: It is true there are social rituals, lighting candles, laying flowers, paying tribute. All of those are things that can help. You can also have help from a professional. But, it is all of those signs of recognition by the people that helps. The idea of being recognized a victim and to share emotions.
BALDWIN: So many people were killed. So many were hurt. And I'm just wondering how your office can handle all these phone calls that you have been getting over the last week and a half. How overwhelmed are you?
DAMIANI: Well, after the Charlie attacks, we had about 300 phone calls, whereas that attacks of the 13th, we already had 300 phone calls in the course of a week.
BALDWIN: What about those, the Charlie Hebdo victims, survivors, family members, who now had this happen essentially in their backyard in the same district in Paris? Is this re-injuring still a pretty fresh wound for them?
DAMIANI: It is not the fact that it was close to them that they are going to relive it. It is the fact that it was an attack. Often when we have multiple attacks like this, the first one, say, we should have done something so it wouldn't happen again, which mean, for them, it is unbearable that it is happening again. So it is going to reactivate what they have been through.
BALDWIN: Do you have people who are just numb who come in here?
DAMIANI: In light of these events, there are different reactions. Most people have strong emotions. They express their suffering. But sometimes, to protect themselves, they are in some sort of denial. They have a sense of coldness which can be confusing for the psychologist. Because they expect to see people who are destroyed. But people show up and they are cold and just talk about the facts. It is almost worrying because we ask ourselves, when are they going to feel what they are going through?
BALDWIN: This tone in Paris, is this the new normal?
DAMIANI: It is too early to say this situation is going to become normal. What is worrying is that we have the impression that it could happen again. Everyone is anxiously awaiting Christmas, because people imagine that if anything happens, it will be Christmas.
BALDWIN: And of course, our thanks.