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President Obama Slams Trump's Immigration Plan; Trump: "I think I'm A Nice Person"; Trump Defends Plan To Deport Undocumented Immigrants; Awaiting Donald Trump At Iowa Campaign Rally. Aired 7- 8:00p ET

Aired November 12, 2015 - 19:00   ET


[19:00:10] ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT next, Donald Trump one-on-one, you'll hear the Republican front-runner defend his plan point by point and you won't believe what he says about Ben Carson's past and Marco Rubio.

And more breaking news, a terror attack kills more than 40 people, at least two hundred injured. Was ISIS behind this suicide bombing?

And new details tonight about the death of an unarmed black man repeatedly tased by police officers. His sister is my guest. Let's go OUTFRONT.

Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news. President Obama weighing in for the first time on Donald Trump's controversial immigration plan. The Republican front-runner is my guest tonight talking about his plan to forcibly remove millions of the illegal immigrants. And spelling out exactly how he would do it. Now, President Obama ridiculing that idea in an interview tonight with ABC News.


PRES. BARACK OBAMA (D), UNITED STATES: The notion that we're going to deport 11, 12 million people from this country, first of all, I have no idea where Mr. Trump thinks the money is going to come from. It would cost us hundreds of billions of dollars to execute that. Imagine the images on the screen flashed around the world as we were dragging parents away from their children and putting them in detention centers and then systematically sending them out. Nobody thinks that that is realistic. But more importantly, that's not who we are as Americans.


BURNETT: And the President isn't alone in his criticism, other Republican candidates are slamming Trump's plan as well.


MARCO RUBIO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The question is whether you can round up and deport 11 or 12 million people. I don't think that's a realistic response. JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I heard his views that he

believes you can round up half a million people a month, a half a million people basically I think would double the number of people processed through our judicial system. It's not possible.


BURNETT: The issue has catapulted Trump to the top of the polls. He burst on to the scene this summer by talking tough singling out Mexican immigrants, famously charging that some are criminals and rapists promising to build a great wall on the southern border. When I sat down with Donald Trump at his New York campaign headquarters today, just a short time before he took off for a rally tonight in Iowa. And before we talked about immigration, we spoke about his changing tone on the trail, about Ben Carson and the other candidates.


BURNETT: Donald, thank you very much for meeting with me.


BURNETT: All right. You are at the top of the national polls right now. You have held that place for months and months now. In the debates on the campaign trail, though, there's been a little bit different of a Donald Trump. Dare I say more conciliatory, nicer.

TRUMP: Isn't that a good thing?

BURNETT: Are we going to see more of this?

TRUMP: Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm the conciliatory person. I'm a nice person. I think I'm a nice person. I would say, they say, when I make a speech, it's different when I debate. I think when I debate, I've gotten very good marks for the debates. As you know, I won every single online poll. There were seven of them and I won all seven by substantial margins. But I think I have to be a little respectful when I debate. I don't think I should be cutting in like some of the people cut in and I constantly cut in. I actually helped Jeb Bush. I was saying let him speak when I looked at Kasich. I said, let him speak. The man couldn't speak. But I think I'm, yes, I think it's just been working out well. I've enjoyed doing the debates. I've had a lot of fun with it and I think we've done it very well in the debate itself.

BURNETT: And what about Dr. Carson? All right? You're on top nationally and in some polls though he's within spitting distance --


BURNETT: A margin of error. Some of them he's been ahead. How are you going to separate yourself from him? Does he worry you?

TRUMP: Well, look, you always think about everybody. Somebody said who is your closest competitor? I mean, they are all -- I have to think about, I mean, other than the ones in the absolute bottom tier and then you wonder why certain people hanging around, it sort of hard to believe that they do this. It can't be helpful to them or their families or their brand, frankly. But somebody said, who is your number one? I said, I think you have many of them. You never know what is going to happen with a political campaign. I haven't done it on this side. I've been a politician for four or five months but I haven't done it from the standpoint of running for office. I've never done this before. I've been a businessman. I've created tremendous numbers of tens and thousands of jobs and built a great company but I've never done this. I would say you have three or four or five people I guess that would have a shot.

BURNETT: And in terms of Dr. Carson, you've said some of the questions about his past are fair. There have been a lot of questions about what really happened, what his childhood was like. You know, he's pushed back in the media. He said at the debate the other night, I have a problem with being lied about. Do you believe he's being truthful now that you've heard his answers?

TRUMP: Well, I don't know, I mean, first of all, I like him. I get along with him very well. I just don't know. I don't forget, this is in his book. I'm not bringing up anything that's not in his book.


TRUMP: And you know, when he says he went after his mother and wanted to hit her in the head with a hammer, that bothers me. I mean, that's pretty bad. When he says he's pathological and he says that in the book, I don't say that. And again, I'm not saying anything. I'm not saying anything other than pathological is a very serious disease and he said he's pathological. Somebody said he has a pathological disease. Other people said he said in the book and I haven't seen it. I know it's in the book -- that he has got a pathological temper or temperament. That's a big problem because you don't cure that. That's like, you know, I could say, they've say you don't cure -- as an example, a child molester, you don't cure these people.

[19:05:35] You don't cure a child molester. There's no cure for it. Pathological, there's no cure for that. Now, I didn't say it. He said it in his book. So when I hear somebody's pathological, when somebody says, I went after my mother with -- and he's saying it about himself with a hammer and hit her in the head, I say, whoa. I never did. You never did. I don't know anybody that ever did personally. But that's a big statement. When he says he hit a friend of his in the face with a lock -- with a padlock right in the face, I say, whoa, that's pretty bad. And when he said he stabbed somebody with a knife but it hit a belt buckle, I know a lot about knives and belt buckles.

Belt buckles are not going to stop it because they are going to turn. They're going to, you know, they are not solid, especially if somebody has got a couple of extra pounds on. You know, they move. There's a lot of movement. So the chances of somebody going like that hitting a belt buckle where it doesn't slide of and go into the --

BURNETT: So, you're not satisfied yet? TRUMP: Well, I just don't know. But when somebody said that

he's pathological, you'll have to ask him that question. Look, I hope it's fine because I think it would be a shame. But think of it, what he's saying is these things happened. It would be nice if he said, no, none of these things did happen. He's saying, these things happened and therefore I have credibility. And what I'm saying is, I would rather have them if they didn't happen. I don't want somebody that hit somebody in the face really hard with a padlock. I don't want somebody that went after his mother with a hammer.

BURNETT: To be president?

TRUMP: I don't want somebody, frankly -- I didn't read his book but, according to the book, he said he's pathological. That's a very serious term.

BURNETT: So I want to ask you about the immigration -- that is going on out there. You obviously put immigration front and center in the GOP conversation.

TRUMP: You wouldn't even be talking about immigration if it wasn't for me.

BURNETT: You have put it on the table and now of course you were criticized heavily at the debate, right? Kasich, Jeb Bush saying that your proposals were --

TRUMP: Well, they are weak people. No, no, excuse me. They're weak people. I watched Jeb today. They are weak people and case I can made a fool out of himself in the debate. I mean, what he said it was ridiculous. Actually, everybody was pretty much uniform in the fact that Kasich did a bad job with the debate.

BURNETT: How though -- on this one point though of deporting 11 million people, even Marco Rubio today said this morning it can't be done.

TRUMP: What do you mean even Marco Rubio? Marco Rubio is in favor of amnesty, he was a member of the gang of eight. He was always in favor of amnesty. He was in favor of people pouring into the country. And then what happened is when people found that out, he sank like a rock in the water.

BURNETT: He says he's springing onto the criminal record, people like that deported.

TRUMP: OK. Now, he's saying things different.

BURNETT: Which is something that you would support.

TRUMP: Erin, Erin. He is much different now than he was in the past. Okay? He's much different. Now, as far as criminal, they're going to be out so fit. If I win, you know, we have tremendous problems. I just gave you an article where an illegal alien ran over today from Texas a policeman three times. Just kept running them over. Look, we have problems. You have Kate in San Francisco. You have the veteran soldier that put this wonderful woman who was 66- years-old, the retired vet who was raped, sodomized and killed by an illegal alien or, as they would say, an illegal immigrant. And this happened three weeks ago in California but it's happening all over. It's a big problem. Crime is a big problem. You also have wonderful people here.

BURNETT: But that's my point.

TRUMP: Excuse me. They came in illegally. They are here illegally.

BURNETT: But how would you do the logistics of it? How would you do the logistics? OK?

TRUMP: First of all, it's all a package.

BURNETT: How do you take 11 million people and make them leave?

TRUMP: Fine. Fine. You'll do it. It's all a package. Number one, we're going to build a wall. We're going to have people coming to the country --

BURNETT: Well, that's the people not coming --

TRUMP: I agree.


TRUMP: But let's go through it. We're going to build a wall. It's going to be a real. It's going to be a wall that is powerful and that people aren't going to be going under or up or around or anything else. It could be a real wall. And we're going to have a door in the wall. People that are coming in the country legally. And we're going to get rid of a lot of people coming in and that all that will come in legally. We're going to get rid of the bad ones because we have some really bad ones in here right now. And you know that gang members in L.A., you look at some of these gangs. They are 100 percent illegal immigrants. They are going to be gone. OK? And they are going to be gone fast and they are not going to be in our prisons for us to take care of them. Our prisons are bursting with illegals right now. Wait a minute. Sure.

BURNETT: What about the law-abiding majority.

TRUMP: Now we have people who came in illegally.


TRUMP: And they are called illegal immigrants and they are here illegally. They are going to have to go and they're going to have to come back illegally. And otherwise, we don't have a country and if we don't do that, we don't have a country. They are going to have to go and they are going to have to come in legally, they are going to have to come in through a system. You have right now, Erin, millions of people that want to come in to the country. Millions. They're on a waiting list. They've gone through documentation. They've gone through all sorts of things and they're waiting on a list in some cases for years.


[19:10:26] TRUMP: And it's very unfair to them. It's very unfair. Now, you can do the work visa thing in terms of the grapes because I have people friends with the grapes and they may need people. We can do lots of different things.

BURNETT: For the agriculture?

TRUMP: But to come here and stay here, you have to come in to the country legally. We either have a country or we don't. If you go to Mexico --


TRUMP: Erin, if you want to be a citizen of Mexico, you -- and let's assume you're a perfect person.

BURNETT: Uh-huh.

TRUMP: You could not become a citizen of Mexico. It's the hardest place just about in the country, in the world to become a citizen. So --

BURNETT: But the point -- the question I'm asking though is, how do you take 11 million people and make them leave?

TRUMP: You do it through a process. You do it in a very humane manner.

BURNETT: But they are not going to want to leave. You're going to have to hire a lot of people to find them and get them over the border, right?

TRUMP: First of all, they are here illegally. If a person comes across the border and you send them right back, the border patrol sends them right back, there's not a big court situation. They send them back. They are here illegally.

BURNETT: Yes. But what about the guy already living in Detroit?

TRUMP: What's the difference between somebody who comes over the border for two days, he gets caught and they bring him back. And somebody that comes over the border, he's here for a year and you bring them back? There's no difference. What I'm saying is --

BURNETT: Logistically there's a difference in terms of finding them and getting them to go.

TRUMP: We have to find them.

BURNETT: That's cost the money and you have to have the people. That's how I'm trying to understand what you do.

TRUMP: Well, you can also do e-verify, you do know that. You can do e-verify where the employers are not going to be hiring them and then everyone is going to go back. That's one way of doing it so that you don't have the problem. You do e-verify where an employer has a big problem if he hires these people and they are all going to go back on their own volition and that's one way.


BURNETT: I'm going to pause our interview right there. After the break, Trump is going to tell us exactly how he plans to deport the undocumented immigrants from this country.

Also ahead, Trump's Secret Service code name. Why he think it is should have been something else.

Plus, startling new details about the last hours of this man's life. He died after police tased him multiple times. His sister is OUTFRONT tonight.

And breaking news this hour, ISIS claiming responsibility for another horrific terror attack. Bombs killing at least 41 people, hundreds injured. We have a live report.


[19:15:45] BURNETT: You're looking at a live picture of a Donald Trump campaign rally in Iowa tonight. The candidate is expected to take the stage any moment. We're going to take you there live later in our broadcast tonight. But first, I sat down with Donald Trump today before he left for Iowa. Before the break, Trump said employers won't hire undocumented immigrants and that many would self-deport thanks to an e-verify system. He then went on to talk about the impact of undocumented immigrants on the economy and that is where we pick up our conversation now.


TRUMP: We have 100 million people right now that, in theory, could qualify for jobs. You have people that look for jobs, can't get them. They go after 5.2 percent is nonsense. We probably have 25 percent unemployment if you look at it realistically and really. You understand that.

BURNETT: Right. I would agree, unemployment underestimates the problem.

TRUMP: You know, Erin, when I go out to make a speech, I was in Springfield, Illinois, the other day. And I had 10,000 people. Broke Elton John's records and he's got organs and he's got all sorts of instruments and great people. He's got a band, okay? I broke his record. If we had a real 5.2 percent, I wouldn't have 10,000 people there. I wouldn't have 20,000 people in Dallas. And I wouldn't have -- and by the way, the people of Dallas, they know more about this and the people of Phoenix, the crowds I'm getting, because we have a problem in this country. You know, my book, which is a book that discusses all of this, and also talks about solutions which is really very important but the book comes out and the book is doing well because people want the answers to that. I don't want to just be a critic. I want somebody to be that --

BURNETT: Which I understand, which is how I feel the question is fair, right? Of how you find them. A lot of these people -- I hear your point on this e-verify which by the way when Mitt Romney put that out, hurt him with the Hispanics.

TRUMP: I don't care. Look, look, maybe it hurts, maybe it doesn't. All I know is in Nevada, I'm leading with Hispanics. In other polls, I'm leading with Hispanics. You know who I'm leading with? I'm leading with the Hispanics that are here legally. Of course, the way our country is being run, if you're an illegal immigrant now, you're allowed to vote. I mean, the way our country is being run. If you're an illegal immigrant, they have a city, a little city town or something in California where the illegal immigrants want to get on the town council. I mean, can you believe this? They want to be on the town council. So, the world is changing.

BURNETT: So, to get them. There's been -- which you've seen, right? I'm sure you'll say you can do it cheaper but the number is big. To get all these out of the country --

TRUMP: These are people that don't know what they are talking about.

BURNETT: They say $600 billion.

TRUMP: They also say --

BURNETT: That's bigger than the Department of Defense contract.

TRUMP: Excuse me. They also say it's $15 billion to build a wall that I'll do for six. And by the way, my wall will be bigger and better and stronger and more powerful. Let me just explain something. Illegal immigration each year costs us between 200 and $300 billion. I don't know if anybody gives those numbers, probably not. But when you include crimes and other problems, it's more than that. So you're talking about between 200 and 300 billion, the way it is now. All right?

BURNETT: But they pay in taxes, they pay $24 billion in taxes.

TRUMP: Who pays in taxes? Do you really believe they pay in taxes? They pay a very little.

BURNETT: They pay Social Security, state and local.

TRUMP: Yes. What percentage of them? Ten percent?

BURNETT: It's $24 billion a year --

TRUMP: Excuse me. Excuse me. Do you know how few pay taxes, Erin? Don't be naive. Do you think that in a legal immigrant getting money is going to be paying taxes? OK. Sure, some probably do only because the employers are insisting on it. OK? But there's very little percentagewise, there's very little. Probably five percent, 10 percent, it's a very small amount pay taxes, Erin. Look, they are here illegally. They are not paying taxes. OK? I've heard this one before. Do I hear them all? What I do is I get things better. I make things really good. I fix things.

And, you know, I'm a real fixer of things, not Jeb Bush. OK? I'm a real fixer. I can really do things. One of the reasons that the wall never got built, they couldn't get their environmental impact statement if you can believe it. Because something was on the thing, they couldn't get their environmental impact statement. So, here's the thing, between e-verify, which will take care of a big portion of them, can go back. And you know what, if they can't get a job, they are going back anyway. Would have I to knock on doors?

BURNETT: So on this point about humanity about, are you going to be sending in officers --

TRUMP: We're going to be sending people in a very nice way --

BURNETT: -- a force of people into people's home to get them out?

TRUMP: We're going to be giving notice. We're going to be saying, we have to go back to wherever the country is. I mean, it's going to be countries, all different countries. It's not just one country. Back to the country. We'll take them back to those country. We'll going to do it in a very humane way. But between e-verify and other modern systems, a lot of that will happen automatically. And don't forget, we're taking tremendous numbers of jobs from people who were born in this country and you understand that because when you look at the roads, you have 100 million people that potentially want to work and they can't find jobs.

BURNETT: They don't want to pick grapes, though.

[19:20:16] TRUMP: Maybe not. And you know what, we can solve that with work visas, where they come in and they work legally. They pay taxes and then they go out. I'm all for that. I think that's true. Because I agree with you, they might not want to pick grapes. Not their thing. I mean, you know, they don't want to do that. And that's okay. But we'll have a work visa where they can come in, work and then at the right time they have to go back home.

BURNETT: Marco Rubio, you disagree with him obviously strenuously on immigration but he is Hispanic, he's obviously -- his parents are Cuban. He has an inspirational story.

TRUMP: That's why he wants amnesty.

BURNETT: Would you put him as a VP on your ticket?

TRUMP: It's too early to say. I like him. I mean, he's a nice guy. I was with him. I've gotten to know him. It's one of the funny things because people say I'm a little rough on some of the candidates. I like them all. I like Jeb Bush. I like them all. I mean --

BURNETT: Yes. You kind of understand why it's hard to get that when you call them a loser or something. TRUMP: But I like a lot of the candidates.


TRUMP: And you know, I mean, but I don't want to talk about vice president now because I want to win first. I don't believe in being one of these people that talks about things and nothing ends up happening. No, I want to win first.

BURNETT: A final question. We're here in your campaign headquarters. Lots of pictures of you. But I believe this is where you filmed "The Apprentice." Right?

TRUMP: Also "The Apprentice." Yes.

BURNETT: So, people might think that it's fancy and it's not. We've got exposed pipes and --

TRUMP: What if this is a great location with nice high ceilings and that when this is over with we'll have a fabulous company in this space and have rented in about 15 minutes but I kept it empty so that I could have this as our campaign. I mean, one thing you'll say, this is the greatest location in the history of campaign headquarters. That's one thing.

BURNETT: Certainly the most expensive real estate. So, coming in here, though, something happened to me that hasn't happened to me before coming here and that was Secret Service checks.


BURNETT: So, you have Secret Service protection. You wanted it. Your code name is mogul. You said you wanted it to be humble.

TRUMP: Yes. I liked humble. I liked humble but they picked mogul and somebody picked it out. I didn't know that the press had that. But I think they had mogul but I would have liked humble because I'm a humble person. Actually, in the debate it came up --

BURNETT: See, what I like about you, Donald is, you can now laugh at yourself.

TRUMP: Well, I can laugh at myself now. But what I'm not laughing about is the sad state of affairs of the country. That's why I'm doing this. And I'm glad I'm running. And you talk about so many of the things you've mentioned. One of the things you didn't mention is corporate inversion because we have companies trying to move out. They're moving out --

BURNETT: We have companies trying to use their favorable tax treatment outside of the United States.

TRUMP: Absolutely. They are moving out of our country to other countries because they get more favorable treatment. We're going to lose a lot of companies unless we have somebody very, very smart and understands what is happening. And I will tell you something, most of the people that are on the -- with me, they didn't even know when I first brought up an incorporate inversions and versions. They didn't even know what it meant, they didn't know what I was talking about. You're going to have to have a very, very good person become president because we have a lot of work to do in this country.

BURNETT: All right. Donald Trump, thank you very much. Good to see you.

TRUMP: Thank you. Thank you very much.


BURNETT: Now OUTFRONT next, Donald Trump on why Ben Carson's past is a problem.


TRUMP: You don't cure a child molester. There's no cure for it. Pathological, there's no cure for that.


BURNETT: And Carson's campaign has just responded OUTFRONT. You'll hear that in the breaking news, next.

Disturbing new details also ahead about the death of an unarmed black man tased by police. Court documents show he called 911 asking for help. His sister is OUTFRONT tonight.


[19:27:38] BURNETT: You're looking live at pictures of Fort Dodge, Iowa. Donald Trump is about to hold a campaign rally there just hours after I sat down with him for a one-on-one interview where he defended his controversial plan to deport 11 million illegal immigrants.


BURNETT: But they are not going to want to leave. You're going to have to hire a lot of people to find them and get them over the border, right?

TRUMP: First of all, they are here illegally. If a person comes across the border and you sent right back, the border patrol sends them right back, there's not a big court situation. They send them back. They're here illegally.

BURNETT: Yes. But what about the guy already living in Detroit?

TRUMP: Excuse me. Excuse me. What's the difference between somebody that comes over the border for two days, he gets caught and they bring him back? And somebody that comes over the border, he is here for a year and you bring him back. There was no difference.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: Athena Jones is live at that rally tonight. And

Athena, this is the first day Trump has had Secret Service protection. You know, I saw that here in New York at Trump Tower for the first time. Extra searches. Have you noticed anything different at the rally?

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Erin. Absolutely. It's different than just a few nights ago. I covered a Trump event, a rally in Springfield, Illinois on Monday night. It was a much larger venue. But people were able to come and go as they pleased. Of course Trump did not arrive in a large motorcade as we expect him to do just a few minutes from now. Tonight, this is a theater that holds about 1500 people and it's packed to capacity. And people had to wait in lines to get in there. To pass through magnetometers.

Now you often see long lines outside Trump but you don't often see magnetometers, screening people for weapons. So, there's a lot more security around. When we got here earlier today, there was of course the usual Secret Service sweep with dogs. So, it's going to be very different filling venues like this. Large and small of course, the larger the venue, the longer the wait. It's going to be coming back through those magnetometers with all the extra securities. So, a very, very different feel tonight -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Athena. Of course, it's tough for Donald Trump who likes to interact with people. You know, wanted a Secret Service protection but obviously it creates some speed bumps yet, he had not foreseen.

OUTFRONT now, the former Reagan White House Political Director Jeffrey Lord was a Donald Trump supporter along with our political commentator S.E. Cupp and our senior political analyst and former presidential advisors to President Nixon, Ford, Reagan and Clinton David Gergen. Okay. Good to have all of you with us.

David, let me just start here though with what Donald Trump had to say about Ben Carson. Because Ben Carson's campaign is just responding, which I'm going to share with our viewers in just a moment. First, let me play again what Donald Trump said when I asked him about Ben Carson's past and the stories that he has told.


[19:30:04] DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He said he's pathological. Somebody said he has a pathological disease. Other people said he said in the book -- and I haven't seen it, I know it's in the book -- that he's got a pathological temper or temperament.

That's a big problem because you don't cure that. That's like, I could say, they'd say you don't -- as an example, a child molester, you don't cure these people. You don't cure a child molester. There's no cure for it. Pathological, there's no cure for that.


BURNETT: David, what's your take?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I thought he went way over the line with that comment comparing or bringing into the conversation child molesters, and using that as part of his argument against Ben Carson. That's so subject to misinterpretation that you just don't do that as a political leader.

He said this stuff about his pathology and so forth. You know, we ought to stop talking about Ben Carson when he was 15 years old. He's had a long life. And let's look at his record. Le's look at his ideas. They are far more important.

I really think that was out of bounds.

BURNETT: Jeff, let me share with you Ben Carson, one of his inner circle, senior staff members, his business manager, Armstrong Williams, that just responded to OUTFRONT. We shared with him what Donald Trump said. Here's what he said in part, quote, "Mr. Trump saying someone pathological cannot change. Are you kidding me? Mr. Trump likes Dr. Carson but Mr. Trump has resentment when he sees Dr. Carson rise. He lashes out like he did tonight."

Jeff, will Donald Trump regret that comparison?

JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I don't think so. I think, when you listen to him, the way he said it, I mean, he just reached out for something he thought was pathological and used it. He could have used anything.

Certainly, I don't think he was saying Dr. Carson is a child molester.

BURNETT: No, he wasn't saying that.

LORD: Maybe it's not the best choice of words. But he -- you know, I mean, I think this is one of the things that gets overblown here. You know, Dr. Carson himself brought this up. He wrote it in his book. So, I mean, that's fair game.


S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think Dr. Carson should stick to medicine and Donald Trump should stick to business.

Donald Trump doesn't really understand what pathological means and you shouldn't diagnose Ben Carson. I don't think this is, you know, going to be an effective strategy.

I'm not really sure -- it's interesting, because Dr. Carson's critics are trying to discredit him by suggesting that these stories of violence and redemption from his childhood didn't happen. Meanwhile, Trump is trying to reinforce that they did, which is a huge part of why Dr. Carson is appealing to his supporters that he went through this stuff and then, you know, became such a successful, accomplished doctor. So Trump is essentially saying, no, they did happen. He's

pathological. And, in fact, he might not have, you know, emerged as a completely cured, normal person. I just don't think that this is a good strategy to try to siphon off Carson voters, if that's what Trump is trying to do.

BURNETT: What do you say, David, to the case Trump is trying to make on his immigration plan? Look, when it came down to it, as we were drilling down there, the bottom line is, he said to me, he's going to build a wall to keep new people out and for the people already in the country, he's going to use E-Verify, some of them are going to self-deport and then some people are going to go and round them up, but he said that would be done and they would be sending them notices and doing it in a humane way.

Is that something that should be being given more consideration or is it as absurd as the president, John Kasich, Jeb Bush are all saying?

GERGEN: It's a terrible idea. I have great respect for Mr. Trump and I've spoken out frequently on CNN about his marketing skills. I think he has masterfully handled that end of politics.

But when it comes to substance, this is a terrible idea. He said, let's go back and do what President Eisenhower, what happened during the Eisenhower administration when we rounded up and militarized the immigration forces, we went out, hunted down immigrants, we put them in cargo ships, we put them in trains, on planes. We dumped a lot of them in the desert. As many as 88 died in the desert when they were dumped back in to Mexico.

I mean, that's so inhumane and we're not -- the United States, Americans will not permit it. You know, people knocking on doors in the middle of the night and ripping individuals away from their families -- you know, in many cases, the immigrants of today, these illegal immigrants have been here for a decade or more. It's not like what we have, what was called Operation Wetback, by the way, back in the '50s.

BURNETT: Right, a very sensitive term.

GERGEN: It's a deeply offensive idea I think to most Americans to rip people apart and send them back, you know, almost -- the descriptions of what they went back, like slave ships that they went back in. What are we talking about? This is not a 21st century America.

BURNETT: S.E., I want to ask you about something. At the debate, you know, when they were talking about a trade deal and Donald Trump obviously hates the Pacific trade deal.

[19:35:00] Rand Paul jumped in when Donald Trump was talking about how China would benefit and said, Donald, I want to inform you, China is not even in the trade deal.

Now, I talked to Donald Trump about that today off the camera and he said he didn't even hear Rand Paul criticize him. The bottom line is, though, the fact checkers seem to support what Donald Trump said at the debate was true. He didn't say China was in the trade deal. He said they would benefit and get in by the back door.

We find out today that perhaps more than half of the American cars, they could say made in America, the products could come from China under this trade deal. Is this something that Donald Trump can use to win?

CUPP: Well, there's no question that Donald knows what he's talking about on a few -- on select topics. I think China and trade are probably, you know, his strong suit.

And, unfortunately, I don't think he talks about those things enough. He veers off in these tangents about Dr. Carson's pathology and other nonsense. He should absolutely talk about trade and China and when he has, I think he's done it very successfully.

If I could just -- if I could just add something to what David Gergen was saying about Operation Wetback, which is all about 100 percent true, it should also be pointed out that it was not very effective. In the very year that the Eisenhower administration said was its most successful, there were still 250,000 deportations. Meaning 250,000 people still came over illegally during the height of this operation. It did nothing to stem illegal immigration.

So, from Trump's point of view, it makes no sense either philosophically or practically.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you all very much. I appreciate it.

Next, another major story tonight. This man died after being tased multiple times by the police. He was handcuffed, not under arrest, though. Now his sister is asking why no charges were ever filed in his death that night. She's my guest OUTFRONT.

And breaking news tonight, more than 40 killed, 200 injured by suicide bombs. ISIS again taking credit.


[19:41:00] BURNETT: Tonight, new details in the case of an unarmed black man who died in police custody. We now know the officers fired their tasers 21 times at Linwood Lambert. It happened just outside a hospital. He never saw a doctor before dying.

An autopsy shows he died from a cocaine overdose. His family, though, blames that taser incident and the police. I will speak with Lambert's sister Gwendolyn in just a moment.

But, first, Miguel Marquez is OUTFRONT with new information about the investigation but I want to warn you, what you're about to see is graphic.


in back of the police car parked in front of a hospital emergency room, apparently in physical distress. Rather than get him medical help, officers from South Boston, Virginia, placed Lambert under arrest. He dies a short time later.

TOM SWEENEY, FAMILY ATTORNEY: He looks like he stops breathing while he's positioned in the car in front of the hospital.

MARQUEZ: How did it come to this? According to court records at 2:48 and 3:18 a.m., Lambert called 911 from a Super 8 Motel on the morning of May 4th, 2013. He was apparently suffering delusions and twice gave the 911 operator the wrong room number. Officers responded but left when they couldn't find him.

Around 4:30 a.m., police returned for a third time to the motel and this time, they found Lambert handcuffed him and were taking the compliant 46-year-old to the hospital.

OFFICER: What we're doing here is we're going to take you to the emergency room and get you looked at, make sure you're good to go.

MARQUEZ: As police drive Lambert to the emergency room, he becomes increasingly agitated.

OFFICER: Don't kick the window! Quit kicking the window.

MARQUEZ: At 5:00 a.m., as they parked at Sentara Halifax Regional Hospital, Lambert kicks out the window and runs in to the emergency room doors.

He's handcuffed and thrashing.

At 5:03 a.m., two police officers tase him simultaneously. While on the ground, Lambert tells the officers that he's used drugs.

LINWOOD LAMBERT: I just did cocaine, man. I just did cocaine.

MARQUEZ: In total, three officers fired tasers at Lambert. The automatic logs generated every time a taser is fired show that three officers used their tasers 21 times over the next 16 minutes. His attorney claims, in total, Lambert received 79 seconds of electric shock.

But tasers don't always make a fuel connection and CNN cannot independently confirm how much shock Lambert actually received.

OFFICER: Sit you (AUDIO DELETED) up and act like you got some sense.

MARQUEZ: At 5:19, police drive Lambert to the county jail. At 5:28 a.m., police begin CPR but it's too late.

Lambert arrives back at the same hospital at 6:06 a.m. where he is pronounced dead. The medical examiner found Lambert suffered cardiac arrest. The

cause of his death was listed as cocaine intoxication. And the manner? An accident.


MARQUEZ: Now, the family of Mr. Lambert is bringing a federal civil lawsuit. They are seeking tens of millions of dollars in damages. Lawyers for the city of South Boston, Virginia, and for the police there say their police acted appropriately, did not use excessive force, deny any of the claims of the Lambert family and their attorneys.

There's also been an ongoing criminal investigation into the police behavior for two years now. So far, no charges. But that investigation is still ongoing -- Erin.

BURNETT: Miguel, thank you very much. Live in Virginia tonight.

And OUTFRONT now, Linwood Lambert sister, Gwendolyn Smalls, and the family attorney, Joseph Messa, Jr.

I appreciate both of you being with me.

Gwendolyn, I'm sorry for the loss of your brother, I know watching this again, this footage play out again has got to be very difficult for you. It does give viewers a sense of what really happened, though, and police are now saying the use of force was appropriate and necessary because your brother was acting erratic.

[19:45:04] They say he posed a danger. That justifies 21 tases.

What do you say when you hear that?

GWENDOLYN SMALLS, SISTER OF LINWOOD LAMBERT: Obviously, they had to say that because they had nothing else to justify what they did to him. They have to say that it was justifiable. But as you look at the video, it's excessive force. It's more than what was needed for a man who was restrained.

So that's just a story that they want to stick with because, that's what they do. They make up stories and they stick with it. So, if they tell a lie long enough, it becomes their truth.

BURNETT: So, Gwendolyn, let's me ask you about the part of the video, though that you mentioned, and this is the part when they pull up to the hospital and he kicks the glass out of the window. You can see the glass spraying everywhere, and then he runs towards the hospital.

Is there anything there that makes you think twice, perhaps they were afraid about the people in the hospital or any of their justifications that would add up to you?

SMALLS: No, that's just an excuse, because they were taking him initially to the hospital for a medical evaluation. So by him running to the hospital, he knew that those officers just didn't feel something in his soul just didn't feel right so, as you can see, when he was banging up against the hospital doors, it's because he was trying to open the doors on his own so he could get away from the officers.

It just so happens that the doors did not open because, from what I was told, that only the employees can come in and out of that entrance. So why the officers took him to that entrance when they passed two other emergency wards is the -- something I would like for them to answer.

BURNETT: All right. So, Joseph, let me ask you, the autopsy says Linwood Lambert died from a cocaine overdose. Obviously, I know you dispute this because you believe the tasers played a significant part in his death. Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta says everyone response differently to cocaine. Some people can go into delirium, which can caused sudden death.

Do you categorically believe that cocaine was not responsible?

JOSEPH MESSA, ATTORNEY FOR FAMILY OF LINWOOD LAMBERT: Absolutely. We've consulted with world renowned pathologists. The amount of cocaine in his system was minuscule. It was traced and not sufficient to be able to cause a sudden cardiac death. As opposed to the hundreds and thousands of volts of electricity sent through his body on multiple occasions that does cause sudden cardiac death.

We're talking about an analysis or a conclusion by the coroner that would be akin to saying, well, someone had a drink of alcohol and then were subsequently shot in the head and the cause of death was alcohol intoxication. That's clearly not the case. The evidence will come out and the facts will come and that's not true.

BURNETT: Gwendolyn, what do you see as justice?

SMALLS: Jail time for the three officers that killed my brother. I want they stripped of their badge and their gun. They need to be off the street. They don't need officers walking around -- running around trying to protect and serve citizens with that type of attitude. That's justice for us. Justice for my family.

BURNETT: Well, thank you very much, Gwendolyn, for coming out and talking about this. Joseph, thank you as well.

SMALLS: Thank you, Erin. Appreciate it.

BURNETT: And OUTFRONT next, a major terror attack. Bombs exploding killing more than 40 people, hundreds more injured. ISIS, again, claiming responsibility in its reign of terror.


[19:52:39] BURNETT: Breaking news, the United States now condemning what it's calling a horrific terrorist attack that ISIS is taking credit for. The two suicide bombings ripped through southern Beirut in Lebanon, shockwaves damaging buildings, killing at least 41, a toll which has been rising all day.

Jim Sciutto is OUTFRONT.


JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): The explosion struck during the height of rush hour, on an open market just south of Beirut, coordinated, powerful, and deadly.

First, one suicide blast draws a crowd of onlookers. And a second blast strikes that crowd, maximizing casualties.

This man said he was praying when the blast blew a door right over his head.

The victims carried by bystanders over rubble from damaged buildings and rushed to nearby hospitals.

TAMARA QIBLAWI, FREELANCE JOURNALIST: The twin suicide bombing went off. The area is mostly emptied, it's been cordoned by the army. Otherwise, there is a lot of shattered glass on the street, a lot of blood and just a scene of chaos and carnage.

SCIUTTO: Within hours, ISIS claimed responsibility. This neighborhood is a stronghold of Hezbollah, the Lebanese militia fighting alongside Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria, ISIS's sworn enemy there.

MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: ISIL doesn't think of itself as having borders. You say ISIS, I say ISIL, and they says I.S., the Islamic State, and they see themselves as trying to establish a caliphate, which means an Islamic government covering all the areas where Muslims live today in the world. And so, Lebanon is just going to be seen as another battlefield.


SCIUTTO: We're learning details tonight, two other suicide bombers involved in this, one of them killed before he could detonate his own explosive by that first blast, and a fourth Lebanese government tell us captured and arrested by Lebanese security forces. We're told, as well, he told them that they were sent to Lebanon from Syria by ISIS, Erin.

BURNETT: And, Jim, I mean, horrible that this happened and ISIS is now threatening Russia again after taking credit for bringing down, of course, MetroJet 9268.

SCIUTTO: That's right. A haunting new audio message over video of Russian facilities and cities.

[19:55:02] And the chanting, not in Arabic, like you see in a lot of these tapes, but in Russian, threatening attacks against Russia very soon. And people here in Washington, lawmakers and officials expect Russia to have a firm response.

BURNETT: All right. Jim Sciutto, thank you very much.

And we'll be right back.


BURNETT: Thanks so much for joining us. And be sure to set your DVR to record OUTFRONT so you can watch us at any time. We'll be back here again same time, same place tomorrow night.

"AC360" with Anderson Cooper begins right now.