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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

New Guidelines for Breast Cancer Screening; Biden: Republicans Not My Enemy; Tension, Violence Escalates in Israel. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired October 20, 2015 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:00:00] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, I'm Kate Bolduan.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm John Berman.

We have breaking news at this very hour that affects millions and millions of women. Brand new guidelines for breast cancer screening just released a minute ago, guidelines that are sure to raise new questions and, frankly, new controversy because they suggest women should start getting mammograms later and less frequently.

BOLDUAN: Joining us now is senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, as well as Dr. Erika Hamilton, the associate director of Breast Cancer and Gynecologic Research Program at the Sarah Cannon Research Institute.

Elizabeth, first to you, with the news. What is the American Cancer Society recommending now?

DR. ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Let's take a look at their specific recommendations. They used to say women should start getting annual mammograms at the age of 40. Now they're saying don't start until age 45. They also used to say that women should get doctor's exams, in other words, a doctor manually feeling the breast for lumps and breasts also around age 40. Now they're saying no one needs them. They say these breast exams as well as mammograms in your early 40s, they say there's no scientific evidence that shows that they catch cancer early and save lives.

BERMAN: Why is less more, Elizabeth? It sounds counterintuitive?

COHEN: It really is counterintuitive. What the American Cancer Society says is, look, mammograms are great. No question they save lives but they're not perfect. They are notorious for false-positives especially on younger women whose breast cancer is denser and harder to image. They see something on a mammogram isn't sure about, it have you to have a biopsy, maybe more mammograms, more radiation. It's a big deal. Some women say, I've gotten so many false-positives I'm going to stop getting mammograms. Nobody wants women to do that. That's the reason they say you don't need to do them in your early 40s.

BOLDUAN: All of this is a big deal. Kind of to your point. That leads me to wonder, is there total agreement around this?

COHEN: No, there is not agreement at all around this. One of the big problems is the studies the American Cancer Society and others have looked at are film mammograms. Nobody does that anymore. We use digital mammograms, which are way better than film mammograms. They think these recommendations don't make a lot of sense. Let's take a look at the three major groups that make recommendations to women about when to do screening. American Cancer Society now says start regular mammograms at age 40. The American college of obstetricians and gynecologists -- American Cancer Society says 45. American college of Obstetricians and Gynecologists says 40. The U.S. Preventive services task force says start at age 50. I can just imagine women as well as doctors are going to throw up their hands and say, what do we do? Then the question, will insurance continue to cover mammograms for women in their 40s now that the American Cancer Society has made their change.

And what experts tell me the answer is, talk to your doctor and decide what risks you're willing to put up with. If you're willing to put up, possibly a lot of false/positives, maybe you do want one. The American Cancer Society says, look, we're recommending 45, but if you want to start at 40, feel free. We think you should be able to go ahead and do that, but we recommend 45.

BERMAN: Doctor, you know you are about to get a lot of questions from a lot of confused patients who will say, hey, look, I thought early detection was the key here. Now all of a sudden you're telling me, wait five years before doing this. I assume this doesn't apply to anyone with a family history, correct?

DR. ERIKA HAMILTON, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR OF BREAST CANCER AND GYNECOLOGIC RESEARCH PROGRAM, SARAH CANNON RESEARCH INSTITUTE: I think that is correct. I'm a doctor that sees breast cancer patients on a daily basis. I've seen a lot of young women whose lives have been saved by having yearly mammograms. I'm concerned young women moving forward without this recommendation. I'm concerned about what it projects of how important we feel mammograms are. I think it's an individual conversation between women and her doctors. We know they're not perfect but the best screening we have. Digital mammograms are better than our film mammograms used to be.

The other thing is that the Cancer Society really used the basis that a screening test has value when it saves lives. This is certainly true. I think picking up cancers earlier where treatment is earlier for patients. We can spare patients mastectomies or chemotherapy is better for women.

BOLDUAN: One of the thing the American Cancer Society is really leaning on here is the big concern and the big problems that can come with false/positives and over diagnosis. Everything is on balance. Where is the risk worth it here? For you, early detection, is it worth the risk of the false positives?

[11:05:19] HAMILTON: I think it is. Even from a cost perspective, if the insurance company came to me and called me today and said, should we spend this money? $50 for a mammogram? I think that's money well spent. We have gotten better at treating these breast cancers even when they're more advanced and incurable, which is an excellent thing for breast cancer and for cancer in general. But this comes with a great cost, monetarily and also to the patients that have to live with this incurable diagnosis every day. It's not to make light of the fact some women have to go back for unnecessary procedure such as a biopsy, but the problem I have is where we associate over diagnosis as being the same as overtreatment. We know that there's some women we over treat but I don't think not having that information, not having the diagnostic information and then being able to make our own decision with that woman about what to do with that information is worth the cost of possibly not catching these breast cancers early when there is something that needs to be done about them.

BOLDUAN: You can see right here very clearly, not total agreement for sure around these new guidelines, but very important, nonetheless, to be discussing it.

Elizabeth Cohen, thank you for bringing us this breaking news, new guidelines coming out from the American Cancer Society.

Dr. Erika Hamilton, thank you very much.

HAMILTON: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: We're going to take another turn to a very important topic we've been following, to politics. Vice President Joe Biden speaking a short time ago, taking some not so subtle jabs, perhaps, at Hillary Clinton. Listen here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't think my chief enemy is the Republican Party. This is a matter of making things work. We've got two great secretaries of state. But when I go, they know that I am speaking for the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: "I don't think my chief enemy is the Republicans." What is he talking about there? Remember the CNN debate last week where Hillary Clinton was asked to list the enemy she was proud of and she added at the very end there, Republicans. This is the second time in two days that Joe Biden has made that statement. Not very thinly veiled at all, me thinks.

Let's bring in senior political correspondent, Brianna Keilar.

Biden had a lot of interesting barbs, I would say, today.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: He sure did. And that comment, as you are noting, didn't happen in a vacuum. He also talks about the amount of miles he's traveled. 1,500,000 miles. Hillary Clinton just under a million. Now the bin Laden raid. It's widely reported Hillary Clinton was for the raid and Joe Biden was against the raid. Here's his take. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Only two people who were absolutely certain. Leon Panetta said go and Bob Gates said don't go. Others were at 59-41. Some end wanted up saying go, but it was such a close call. I joked and said, you all sound like 17 Larry Summers, the economist, on the one hand and the other.

(LAUGHTER)

And they said, well, Joe, what would you do? There was a third option that I didn't really think we should do. I said, well, I said, I think we should make one more pass with another UAV to see if it's -- if it is him. And the reason I did that is I didn't want to take a position to go if that was not where he was going to go. So, as we walked out of the room and walked upstairs, I said -- I told him my opinion, that I thought he should go but follow his own instinct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: It's really just fascinating when you listen to that, he's saying, Leon Panetta and Bob Gates were the only two around the table who had definitive yes or no answers. He does not, guys, put Hillary Clinton in that category. It's really fascinating. So he's kind of downplaying the fact that she said yes, which is reported. He's also downplaying that he said no, which is reported. Instead sort of illustrating himself to be thoughtful, kind of deliberate about it but not saying no, telling the president to trust his instincts. He says that was his answer on Osama bin Laden.

BERMAN: No. He's muddying his answer at least what's been reported in the past in conspicuous absence of Hillary Clinton as someone who supported the raid there. That was loud, Brianna.

KEILAR: We heard it.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: Brianna Keilar, great to have you with us. Thanks so much.

KEILAR: Thanks, guys.

[11:10:03] BERMAN: What is Joe Biden doing here? That is the key question. If he is not running, what does he get out of this? Is it just bizarre? If he is going to run, when will he say so?

BOLDUAN: Plus, a new CNN poll out today shows Donald Trump dominating the field. But a new report also surfacing suggesting the Republican establishment is not only worried about this but planning some kind of big action to stop Trump. We'll talk about that.

And some breaking news out of Arizona. A water rescue under way right now. We're told at least one person trapped in this minivan you're looking at here. Standby, we're watching this live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [11:49:50]BERMAN: Vice President Joe Biden just a few minutes ago saying Republicans are not his enemy. That is different than what Hillary Clinton said. Also, Joe Biden omitting Hillary Clinton as someone who wanted to launch the raid that killed Osama bin Laden.

[11:15:05] BOLDUAN: Let's discuss this with, CNN political commentator, Van Jones, as I laugh and submit on this. Sorry, everybody, However, America and beyond. Van was an insider with President Obama. And Brad Woodhouse, he's a former communications director for the Democratic National Committee.

Yes, you should have worn your tarp today.

(LAUGHTER)

Hi, guys.

Welcome back, Brad.

BRAD WOODHOUSE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Good morning.

BOLDUAN: Good morning.

First off, what is Joe Biden doing here, Brad? These are not so subtle jabs at Hillary Clinton. There's no way when you say Republicans are not my chief enemy that you're not talking about Hillary Clinton.

WOODHOUSE: Well, I guess he is talking about Hillary Clinton. I'm not sure -- I'm not sure what the point is. First of all, I thought her entire answer, she was smiling, laughing. A lot of it was tongue in cheek. Hey, if you want to go into a Democratic primary hugging the Republican Party, have right at it. I'm not sure how good it will do you.

BERMAN: So, Van, we don't know what Joe Biden is going to do. These comments make some sense if Joe Biden is going to get in the race. What I'm trying to figure out, what a lot of people are trying to figure out, is how they make sense if he's not going to get into the race. Do you have any thoughts there?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, they don't make sense if he's not getting in. Most people watch that debate. What they see is the incredible strength of Hillary Clinton. Bernie Sanders stole the show with some one-liners. I think Joe Biden saw it different from everybody else. I think he saw the incredible weakness from the rest of the field. He's probably thinking, I wouldn't let Hillary get away with that answer. What about this? What about that? When you've been in hub life as long as he has, when you've been in the White House for six, seven years, and you know this by the back of your hand, to see a bunch of amateurs and the lily who couldn't tie down Gulliver, it must have been difficult for him to watch. I think he thinks to himself, if these clowns can be on the world state getting on "SNL," I could do at least that well. BOLDUAN: Is this the kind of debate the Democratic Party wants going

into the Democratic primary? Do you want your party leaders, party hopefuls, presidential candidates fighting over and drawing contrast for who was for the Osama bin Laden raid and sitting in the Situation Room. Is that what you want?

WOODHOUSE: I'm not sure it's what we want. I'm not sure it's what the vice president wants. The public record is pretty clear and sounds like there is some revisionist history going on here. I'm not sure you're not leading with your chin when there's been so much discussion, so much about where you stood versus where she stood going into that rate. I think the real problem is this routine is getting a little -- is getting a little tired. You know, we have now been on Biden watch for a very long time. I'll say this. I respect the vice president. He should take as long as he wants and he should take everything into account. But the leaks about his decision-making I don't think have suited him well. This week is a critical meeting. Next week is a critical meeting. We have repeated leaks he's interviewing staff. I've seen that three different times. I think --

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: I agree with you.

WOODHOUSE: I think Democrats are getting a little tired of that.

JONES: I have to agree as well. I think he's got to -- if he doesn't get in this weekend, I think he needs to let the news cycle move on. But I think he's probably going to get in. You're seeing more and more leaks in this direction. Also don't forget, President Obiden -- President Obiden -- President Obama --

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: There you go.

BOLDUAN: There you go.

BERMAN: You just gave him what you wanted.

BOLDUAN: That's the ad.

JONES: Come on, man!

(LAUGHTER)

Anyway, when President Obama is up in the polls, he's above 50 percent, so I think that may be encouraging him. It may not be such a bad thing to go for an Obama third term if Obama is above 50 percent. I think a lot of things are pushing him to go but he needs to go or get off the stage.

BERMAN: We want to leave you all with the one psychology thought here. Our friend at ABC brought this up. Maybe Joe Biden is doing this, you're going on a little assault to retreat to make it look like you're leaving on your own terms. It's important to leave and not get in the race on his own terms, rather than saying it was decided by Hillary Clinton --

BOLDUAN: Than saying it was decided for you --

BERMAN: Right.

BOLDUAN: -- and you didn't see your path.

We'll leave you with that.

Van, Brad, thanks, guys.

WOODHOUSE: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Thank you.

A lot of breaking news coming up for us out of the Middle East. A new attack. A driver ramming into a crowded bus stop. One of the apparent targets, an Israeli soldier. We'll take you there life for the very latest.

BERMAN: Plus, Donald Trump tells thousands of supporters that President Obama wants to take away their guns. Where is that coming from? We'll talk about that. We'll also talk about his astounding rise in the polls. And what happened to Carly Fiorina?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:24:22] BOLDUAN: New developments in the West Bank as violence continues to escalate. Today, a deadly hit-and-run. An Israeli man was killed. The driver was arrested. Then another Palestinian rammed his car into a crowd killing two people. That driver was killed. And an Israeli officer was stabbed.

BERMAN: The tension there is so high right now. This month, eight Israelis have been killed, many stabbed by Palestinians. In the same period, security forces have killed 45 Palestinians, some directly connected to the attack, say the Israelis, others killed in clashes.

CNN's Oren Liebermann joins us now from Jerusalem.

Where, Oren, another day, another round of attacks.

[11:25:00] OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John and Kate, three attacks today, mostly focusing on the northwest city of Hebron, a tense city, a city with small minority of Israeli settlers living there amidst a bigger population. That's become the flash point.

Let's talk about these three attacks. The latest of these attacks is where the IDF, Israeli military, says a Palestinian driver drove into a bus stop, injuring a soldier and civilian. That driver, they say, was killed at the scene. A short while before that, a couple of hours before that, police say that there was a hit-and-run attack. An Israeli driver who they - say -- or emergency services say his car was pelted by stones. He stepped out of his car. Emergency services said he was hit and run -- he was killed by a hit-and-run from a car or truck with a Palestinian license plate. Earlier this morning, the IDF saying a Palestinian tried to stab a soldier. The soldier was lightly wounded. He opened fire and killed the alleged attacker.

So, yesterday we had a day of quiet. There was a feeling here maybe that quiet would hold. Absolutely not. Back to the violence. The tension in the air, you can feel it here.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon trying to ease some tension and perhaps find some way to restore some level of peace here.

BERMAN: Oren Liebermann there for us.

Big meetings there, see if they lead anywhere. Not much optimism they will, though.

Thanks, Oren.

The man who said he hacked the CIA director's e-mail, a CNN exclusive. He talks to our reporter and says how he did it. Not how you think. This is not your grandfather's computer hacking, if there is such a thing.

BOLDUAN: And Donald Trump's lead holding strong. Carly Fiorina, where did she go? And is there now a big campaign coming to take down the front-runner coming from the GOP establishment?

And also this, we are just getting word that another candidate, who's been running for the 2016 -- in the 2016 race is going to announce he's dropping out. Details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)