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Pope Francis' Visit; Donald Trump Speech. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 23, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[13:59:39] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

This is CNN special breaking coverage of a phenomenally monumental day in history. Pope Francis bringing the streets of the U.S. capital in Washington, D.C., to an absolute halt.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: I'll tell you what, he's already having an effect where we are. I'm Chris Cuomo. We're at the Catholic University, the only university in the country that was founded by Catholic bishops. It makes it a special place for the religion and very special today.

We are outside the basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception. That's where the pope is going to lead his first mass on U.S. soil. So this is going to be the big deal for Catholics, the pope's first mass in the U.S. And then he's going to go on a whirlwind tour of this city. He's going to get back in the Popemobile and people are going to get to see him.

But this is going to be a big deal on different levels. Him going around the city, Brooke, is obvious. People want to see him. He's going to kiss babies. He's going to restore the faithful. And as 70 million Catholics, the biggest denomination in the country, that's going to be a big deal just from a celebrity standpoint and from a catholic fanfare standpoint.

Right now the pope is behind closed doors. As we know, he's taking a little bit of a rest at the (INAUDIBLE), which is the Vatican seat here in Washington, D.C. It's like an embassy for the holy sea (ph). He had that big morning in D.C., so he needs a rest. He's 78 years old. It's been very hot. Not as hot as it was in Cuba. But after addressing 11,000 some people there on the South Lawn and seeing all the tens of thousands that were all over in the streets, you know, that's a big and taxing thing.

And, you know what, this event means something to him as well, to have a president of the United States talking about him and his efforts in a very effusive and congratulatory way. That's a big deal. And certainly the pope returned the favor. However, this was different than Cuba already. In Cuba there was a gentility in terms of what the holy father wanted and a mildness when he was talking about the Cuban regime. Everything was very oblique. It was nuanced. Here it was much more direct, especially when it came to the environment and what the pope thinks should happen. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) POPE FRANCIS: Mr. President, I am finding it encouraging that you are proposing an initiative for reducing air pollution. I'm sensing -- I'm sensing the urgency. It seems clear to me also that climate change is a problem we can no longer be left to our future generations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: You hear there the pope putting a lot of effort into speaking English. It's not his first language. He's not comfortable with it. So why did he do it? Because he knew it was important for the American audience to hear him in their language. And it was very important not just because of its straight level coherence, but for what the pope decided to emphasis. Which words seemed to matter more to him. And you saw on global warming, I'm sure that's going to draw some political criticism, but he was very determined on it.

The other big moment this morning was to hear the pope, who's known for quoting people for sources of authority, Jose Martin (ph) in Cuba, Pope John Paul II, he quotes Martin Luther King, one of his famous lines about the promissory note that has been defaulted upon and that now it is time to honor it. Very powerful things coming from the pope, especially for this reflection (ph) on American history.

Now, what will he do today? There's going to be a very big mass for Catholics today. The canonization of a pope, Junipero Serra. He is known as really the apostle of the catholic church in terms of helping to develop the West Coast, specifically California. He built nine missions there. He's very big within the church. But he's also highly controversial. And we'll be talking to you about why throughout this show.

But right now, let's go to Jim Sciutto to get some more idea of what happened after the big speech this morning when the POTUS, the president of the United States, and the pope went inside the Oval Office together, about 45 minutes. Very often the pope is different in private than he is with the message to public, especially with world leaders.

Jim, what's the best info we have?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Chris, based on what the White House is say, it seems that the president and the holy father, the head of the catholic church, touched on a good percentage of the hot button political issues here in the U.S. today. From the White House readout they say they discussed a moral responsibility to help people fleeing their countries. That, of course, speaks to the refugees fleeing Syria in the Middle East to Europe. A big crisis there. They spoke of an obligation to reduce extreme poverty. This is an issue that is central to the pope's mission, but also seems to have an overlap with the president's efforts to address wealth disparity here in the U.S.

They also spoke about a duty to protect the planet, to deal with climate change. And listen to those words, Chris, too, "obligation," "responsibility," "duty." Get a sense of the commitment of both of them to those issues. Now, those are the issues where they have overlap, where they have

agreement. They also discussed Cuba as well. And we know that the pope had an essential role in leading to the normalization of relations.

But, as we know, there are other issues where the pope and the president are not in agreement, family issues, gay marriage, abortion. Josh Earnest addressed this just a short time ago, asked how did they deal with those issues that they did not agree with? On that he deferred to their private conversations. It looked that in this conversation, Chris, they were looking for their areas of overlap, of agreement, and they certainly have a lot. And that's part of the list there.

You heard the public speeches, too, climate change, poverty, refugee crisis, issues like that. Lots to discuss in that private Oval Office meeting.

[14:05:33] CUOMO: Well, certainly it's no accident, Jim, that the one thing the pope spoke about in detail specifically was climate change. Everything else was certainly more nuance. He never said the word "Cuba." You know, he never said the word "marriage" except to talk about marriage and the family for the conference, which is ostensibly why he came here, the big conference in Philadelphia about marriage and the family. So what they talked about in private, boy, we're going to have to figure out in pieces. But certainly the pope came here with a lot to say.

Now, let's get back to what's going on here in the next step of his trip, the mass for the canonization of Junipero Serra, to make him a big Latin American figure now for the Catholic Church.

Let's bring in Rosa Flores.

This mass is a big deal on several levels. One, this is Catholic University, the only university that was established, I think 1887, by the U.S. bishops. You're going to have 3,500 seminarians and men and women novices, as they call them, in attendance inside, many thousand here outside. But the person at the center of it, other than the pope, is Junipero Serra. He was beatified by John Paul II. Now there's controversy. Tell me about it.

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lots of controversy about this. Now, let's just give you a little history. So he's a Franciscan missionary from back in the 18th century. So he comes to California, starts establishing missions, evangelizing, building churches, creating a church, if you will, in California.

Now, here's where the controversy comes in. Latin -- Latino groups and also Native American groups, for them this is an open wound because they say, look, this is part of our history that's very painful?

CUOMO: Why?

FLORES: Because they too away --

CUOMO: Because you can hear missionary and think, oh, he was doing good things. What do they say?

FLORES: Great things. Right. So they say, look, he took away our language, our culture. They -- we were ripped -- we know the history of the United States -- they ripped us of what we had in this country and took over. Now, the church, what the church will say is that in this missionary work, he was also defending the rights, giving dignity to people.

Now, we've seen this in other areas of the world, too. When the pope was in South America, he talked about these types of priests that are almost like activist priests, Chris, that do a lot for the community. That's what they are opposing (ph) to say about Junipero Serra and that's why he decanonized (ph) (INAUDIBLE).

CUOMO: How big a deal for Latinos, Hispanics, is it to have someone of Spanish descent made a saint from American soil?

FLORES: That's a really big deal. I mean here we -- we have the first Latin American pope visiting the United States for the very first time. Last night on the papal plane he said he wanted to come in through Mexico. He wanted to come in through (INAUDIBLE) Juarez to make a point that he was crossing the border from Mexico. He said the only reason why I didn't come in through Mexico was, I was not going to have a chance to stop by our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City and he said that would be a slap in the face for all Mexicans and I'm not going to do that. He said, but, instead, I came in through Cuba. So he still came from Latin America. So it's the symbols a lot of the times with this pope too.

CUOMO: Well, there's still the dissatisfaction (ph). Mexico has, you know, a very robust catholic population. It's almost dominant there. Why doesn't he come there if he's so close? You're always going to hear it.

All right, Rosa, let's monitor throughout the day, see what the feedback is not just for this experience but the significance with Serra being canonization and we'll keep talking about it, all right.

FLORES: OK.

CUOMO: All right, always good to be with Rosa. She had her big moment with the pope. They had the picture together, the blessing. She manhandled him. We thought it was going to be a security situation, but it wound up being very good.

All right, let's bring in now Father Peter Castarella. He's an associate -- just Peter Castarella. I don't want to give him a wrong title, associate professor of theology, University of Notre Dame, interim director of Latin America North American Church Concerns Project.

It's good to have you with us. And you hear us talking about Junipero Serra. There is controversy. What is your take about why the Vatican chose Junipero Serra?

PETER CASTARELLA, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF THEOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF NOTRE DAME: Well, it's a very healthy conversation, I think. I mean the clash between the Spanish colonial culture and the indigenous culture did have violent encounters. But when you look at a figure like Junipero Serra or I'll mention another Dominican, (INAUDIBLE), these were exceptions rather than the rule. And these men actually took the indigenous cultures very seriously. And so in my own personal research and the research that the Vatican did very thoroughly looking at both sides of this historical debate, they came to the conclusion in net effect with these missions that the Franciscan, Junipero Serra, set up in California was to give us a sense of the blessing that the Hispanic culture represented in the like of the conversion of the indigenous. And that's actually the point that Pope Francis is making with the canonization mass, not that people should take a side on a debate among academics, but it's a pastoral and cultural point.

[14:10:20] CUOMO: But is it a debate among academics? I mean I have to tell you, as we were getting read in for the events for the pope's trip here in asking the Vatican, why did you pick Serra, this controversy, because obviously they wouldn't want to walk in to a buzz saw of controversy, certainly we're hearing what you're saying right now is that on balance they believe that Serra represented the best of that mission as opposed to the worst of it. But that's not what these Native American and Latino groups are saying. They're saying this isn't just about -- not that it wouldn't be bad enough -- but stripping of culture and of all the other manifests of this change of identity as part of the missionary process, but there was forced labor, there was abuse, and that Serra was in the middle of it and was a leader in -- during those times. Now, if that's part of what you say is the accepted part of conflict between the indigenous and the religious when you had these missionary movements, is that enough to disqualify somebody?

CASTARELLA: I wouldn't say disqualify, but your point about him being a leader is well taken. I think that the point is that this is a very healthy opportunity for a conversation. If you look even at Pope Francis' encyclical on the environment, no doubt you'll see there's a great amount of attention paid to the question of the voices of the indigenous in thinking about the environment. If anything, Pope Francis is one who is moving forward the discussion about the role of the indigenous voices in Latin America and throughout the world.

So I think it's very healthy to have the debate about the historical past and about moving forward. Keep in mind also that Francis is reminding U.S. citizens of their own and U.S. Catholics of their own historical memory. Not in the case of Serra but in general. Spanish speaking Christians were in the United States before the pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock.

CUOMO: Spanish was the first non-indigenous language spoken in the United States, what became the United States. Many people don't know that.

And, Peter, though, let's end on this one point, though, just to iterate it, that in your research, and your understanding of the role of Junipero Serra, when you look at it on balance, was he somebody that does not deserve to be painted with the brush of having been abusive? CASTARELLA: I think he's a very good example of what Pope Francis and

many, many contexts (ph) talk about the need to have a (INAUDIBLE), a culture in which people meet each other face to face. What Junipero Serra added to the mix was the presentation of the European Gospel to the indigenous. And he had it. He spoke their language. He learned their language. He was part of -- I mean this is why we have cities named San Francisco in California today. And I agree with you totally that it has to be an open debate and that's something that Pope Francis himself has tried to encourage, that we have a debate about these conflictual issues. But at the same time, he wants to give a model for Hispanic Catholics in the U.S.

CUOMO: And they have chosen Junipero Serra for that. It will be a big first. He will be a saint and certainly that's not supposed to be somebody who's the point of debate. That would seem to suggest that the debate is settled where they're involved because they're being made a saint after being beatified, the first step in that process by Pope John Paul II, now Pope Francis, on American soil. This is a big move.

Peter Castarella, thank you for helping us understand this a little bit getter.

Brooke, there's no question that there's controversy. You know, people will say they're making the guy a saint. Why would you bring this up? But you need to, as Peter Castarella said, when there's controversy, nobody wants to go at it more than Pope Francis. He's got an expression, (INAUDIBLE), making a mess. He wants to get into things that are, you know, that are controversial, talk about them, and that's how you progress.

BALDWIN: Right. You know, we've talked so much about what he's discussed with President Obama, what he said already today and we'll get into what he may say his message as he speaks to Congress tomorrow.

Chris Cuomo, stand by, helping lead our coverage here from Washington, D.C., of Pope Francis.

And speaking of some of these issues, as the pope speaks on immigration, a candidate who's made it really his main thrust, his main issue, speaking live any moment, Donald Trump addressing the African-American Chamber of Commerce in South Carolina. We will take it live.

Also ahead, do not miss this, I will speak with the man who just wrote Donald Trump's biography. Hear what surprised him the most.

You're watching CNN's special live coverage. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:18:45] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We will take you back to our pope coverage in Washington, D.C., in just a moment. But we have to talk politics. And this man still the front-runner in the nomination for the president on the Republican side, Donald Trump. He is speaking in North Charleston, South Carolina, at the African-American Chamber of Commerce. Let's dip in.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And you know what I -- I get a lot of money to make speeches and things. He got me for nothing, meaning he's a tough negotiator. Come here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.

TRUMP: I want him negotiating for us against China.

But we have to take it back. We've got to take it back. We've got to get our people in line. We've got to do things that we just haven't done before. We aren't -- we have lost our way as a country, and we need -- we need businesspeople. It's time to get businesspeople in there.

You know, when you talk about -- when you talk about the African- American Chamber of Commerce, I mean you have people that are great businesspeople. And it's one of the reasons you're here. So many people said, by the way, from your chamber, in the back room, we were meeting with very smart cookies. They all read "The Art of the Deal." And you know what I get out of it? Nothing. They don't give me 10 percent, right? But they all, this group, they've all done great and they should.

[14:20:13] Last night I did Colbert. Did anybody see that? So the ratings were phenomenal. It had like a 3.7. It beat "The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon," which I did last week. We had great ratings there, too. And it was a great evening. And following me was the gentleman who's a very nice man, earnest, who negotiated the pact with Iran. And I wrote -- Colbert gave me a book. He said, would you do me a favor. Would you write something, a little note? And I wrote him a note. I said, better luck next time. And he was very nice. I mean he was very -- look, they're trying. They're trying very hard. But we've got to do better if we're going to make our country great again.

Look at all these people. We've got to do -- we just have to do better. And so we can talk Iran deal. You've heard me before, disaster. We can talk military. You've heard me before. We're going to build it up. We're going to make it so strong nobody's going to be messing with us, believe me. So strong, so good we're not going to have to use it. I don't think.

You know, a lot of these guys -- and I stay it. It really is terrible. They ask me, what are you going to do in Syria? What are you going to do? Are you going to attack Russia, start world war III? You know, Syria is -- I don't want to start world war III over Syria, believe me. Are you going to start? And, you know, Bush got up and so did Hillary and she said, Trump's tone, his tone isn't nice. My tone. We need an energetic -- we need people with energy.

My tone. And, you know, they get up -- and we need people that are somewhat unpredictable. I had an article recently, and it was said great things about me from a financial standpoint. Trump's really smart. He's really great. They actually used the word "genius," but I won't say that because I don't want to -- but they said one of the people that competed with me and actually lost said he's totally unpredictable. You never know what he's going to do. That's a good thing. That's not a bad thing. That's a good thing.

And I saw the other day where Marco was saying that I don't know that much about foreign policy. And I said, wait a minute, I don't like telling people what I want to do all the time. Does that make sense? I am the only one on that stage the other night, which I had a great time, but it shouldn't have been three hours. Who ever heard of a three hour -- you know what happened with CNN? No. Now they're going to turn off their live feed. But you know what happened with CNN? CNN sold out the first two hours at record numbers. And they did record. It was the largest broadcast in the history of CNN. Think of it. With all the wars, with all the -- this was number one. I wonder how many people would have been watching if I wasn't there. What do you think? Like three? Three?

So CNN was supposed to get $4,000 I guess for a 30-second ad. Who knows. But it was supposed to be $4,000. And I think it went to 250. Would you say -- they said it was a 4,000 percent increase, but then they said it was actually higher than projected. That's good by any standard. And they said, you know -- I can't blame them. They said, who cares about these people? Who cares about even our audience, because nobody wants to watch for three hours. but they said, we just sold out the first two hours at record numbers, so let's let these suckers stand up there for another hour in a room that was 100 degrees. That room was hot. I mean poor Chris Christie. He was -- no, it's true! It's true. No, he's a nice guy. It wasn't fair.

It was an amazing thing. I was like a piece of water. Rubio, I've never seen a young guy sweat that much. No, I've never seen -- he's drinking water, water, water. I never saw anything like this with him with the water. But -- and everybody, Huckabee, nice guy, he was seriously hot. He was soaking wet. I grabbed him around his back. I said, good job. And it was soaking wet. I immediately -- he was drenched.

So they had us up there for three hours. And it was -- you know, I really had a good time. And every poll, every single poll, Drudge, "Time" magazine, Slate, every poll said that Trump won the debate. Right? They all said -- thank you. Thank you. But the pundits don't say that. They really hate me. The pundits don't say that. The people say it, but the pundits -- but then -- you're right. She just said, who cares? It's true. You know, I tell these stories like I tell the story here on the --

[14:25:13] BALDWIN: All right, Donald Trump, the usual stump speech there in North Charleston, South Carolina. He's going to continue going. We're going to get a break in. What's pretty serendipitous here is that sitting next to me is the Donald Trump biographer who just penned this book. I have lots of questions for him coming up here. Is this the real Donald Trump or is this the Donald Trump that he thinks we want to see? Let's begin there. Quick break. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: As Donald Trump is speaking in North Charleston, South Carolina, I have his biographer sitting next to me. He is Michael D'Antonio. He's the author of "Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success." The new biography out right now.

[14:30:01] So, Michael, a pleasure to have you here.

MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, AUTHOR, "NEVER ENOUGH": Thanks for inviting me.

BALDWIN: We've both been listening to him. Here's my number one question. You met with him five different times over the course of off and on 2014 where he promised you he was going to run for president and you almost didn't believe him.