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Ohio Police Officer Indicted; Interview With Former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee; Interview With Donald Trump; Campus Police Office Indicted for Murder. Aired 4-4:30p ET

Aired July 29, 2015 - 16:00   ET



JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Speaking outrageousness to power hasn't hurt him. It has only helped him so far. So, what did Donald Trump have to say today in a brand-new interview with CNN?

I'm Jake Tapper. This is THE LEAD.

The politics lead, two GOP contenders here on THE LEAD today, Donald Trump addressing everything from that breast-feeding controversy to Michael Jackson and the media, and then we will go one on one with Mike Huckabee, and talk about how he compared the potential result of the Iran deal to the ovens of the Holocaust.

The national lead, the prosecutor called it the most asinine act he's ever seen a police officer make. It's also quite graphic. A white police officer now indicted for murder for killing an unarmed black man after his body camera told a quite different story than the officer did.

The world lead, could it be? Really? Plane debris washing up on the shore of an island. The pictures prove it. It's real. Now everyone, especially the families, waiting to see if that debris is from that missing Malaysian airplane.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to THE LEAD. Yo soy Jacobo Tapper.

We begin with the politics lead. He says he's going to win the Republican nomination in 2016. He says he's going to beat Hillary Clinton and become the 45th president of the United States. He says journalists misreport things that he has said and done. He says his lawyers don't speak for him and that the only person who can speak for Mr. Trump is Mr. Trump himself.

So, our own Dana Bash sat down with Donald Trump to get him on the record, in his own words, amid allegations and a fresh controversy surrounding his campaign.

CNN chief congressional correspondent Dana Bash live in New York.

Dana, you sat down with the man himself, the Republican front-runner, in Trump Tower. What did he have to say?

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jake, we discussed a lot of substantive topics, from health care to immigration, but we did start with the story in "The New York Times" today about Elizabeth Beck, a lawyer deposing Trump during a real estate dispute back in 2011.

She was breast-feeding at the time and she said on CNN's "NEW DAY" that she wanted to take a break from the deposition to go pump, that when she tried, Trump called her disgusting. Here is what Trump told me in response.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It was a breast pump. She wanted to pump in front of me during a deposition.

BASH: The way she described it was that she wanted to take a break, so she could take the pump out.

TRUMP: Not true. In fact, if you ask my lawyer, who was there, he said I have never seen anything like it. She wanted to breast-pump in front of me.

And I may have said, that's disgusting. I may have said something else. I thought it was terrible. She's a horrible person, knows nothing about me. I see her, she's now the great expert on Donald Trump.

BASH: I guess the question isn't so much that she's an expert, but she does have an experience which she clearly doesn't think was very good.

TRUMP: Excuse me. And it's a bad experience. She lost. And that's what the country needs.

The country needs somebody that's going to win. We always lose. We lose on trade. We lose to China, Japan, Mexico. We lose to everybody. Wouldn't it be nice if we could finally win something? I beat her so badly. She's a vicious, horrible person.

BASH: Because you're not a politician, you know, we don't have your voting record to go on. We don't have -- we have your experience as a businessman. And part of your experience are legal issues.

TRUMP: Well, let me explain that.


TRUMP: Let me explain.


TRUMP: So many people are on television that don't know me, and they're like experts on me.

You know, when Michael Jackson died, I knew him very well. And everybody was talking about Michael Jackson. They didn't know him. They knew nothing. Some of them never even met him. And I sort of laughed to myself. Here they are, they're talking about Michael Jackson. They never met him.

BASH: My question for you is, people looking at that, they're thinking, OK, if he blows up at a lawyer in a deposition...

TRUMP: I didn't blow up. I didn't blow up.

BASH: ... negotiating, what would he do -- what would you do if Vladimir Putin challenged you?

TRUMP: Excuse me. Oh, believe me, he would be -- I would do very well with him. I get along with people.

I didn't blow up at a deposition. I don't blow up. I'm a person that knows exactly...


BASH: She is wrong; that didn't happen?

TRUMP: She made it up.

BASH: I bought your 2000 book, "The America We Deserve," $7.99 on Amazon, by the way.

TRUMP: Right. Good.

BASH: I contributed to the empire.


BASH: OK, health care in this book, you at the time said you were very conservative on most issues, but liberal on health care. You advocated a single-payer system, sore of Canadian-style, universal health care.

What's your position now?

TRUMP: Well, at the time -- and I will say this. At the time, we were having not the kind of difficulty that we're having now with Obamacare.

Obamacare is, number one and maybe least importantly, it's costing the country a fortune. It's also a very bad form of -- it's very bad. People are losing their plans. They're losing their doctors. Doctors -- one of the biggest problems that nobody talks about, doctors are all leaving. They're leaving the profession.


BASH: Do you think the answer still is a single-payer system?

TRUMP: No, I think the answer is going to be, we have no knock down the borders and let people compete. And then we do.

Now, where I may be different than other people, I want to take care of everybody. You have a group of people that aren't able to take care of themselves. I can't even imagine...

BASH: How do you do that?

TRUMP: We're going to have work out some kind of deal with hospitals where they can get some help, when they are sick, when they have no money and they are sick.

And you know what? If a Republican or if a conservative -- and I'm a very conservative person. But if a conservative person doesn't like the fact that I have to -- want to take care of somebody that, if they are really sick and they have no money, I want to help the person...

BASH: How do you do that, though?

TRUMP: You're going to have -- we are going to have to work out some kind of a very, very smart deal with hospitals around the country.

BASH: So, you're in the Oval Office, you're saying, Obamacare...

TRUMP: It's got to go.

BASH: It's got to go.

TRUMP: Repeal and replace with something terrific.

BASH: And the terrific is?

TRUMP: The terrific will be plans that could be done by private companies. I have to be able to compete. I want to be able to compete and go to a company in California, a company in Iowa, a company in New Hampshire, a company -- for -- and I will get a good price.

The only way the government should really be involved is they have to make sure those companies are financially strong, so that if they have catastrophic events or if they make a miscalculation, they have plenty of money.

Other than that, it's private. You will get great plans, you will have great competition, everything else. Now, at the lower end, where people have no money, I want to try and help those people. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I want to try and help those people, so they can also can -- now, it's not going to be like a good plan. It's not going to be like the finest plan that somebody that's made some money or has a good living can do.

But you have got to be able to help the people. Can you imagine you have no money, and you get sick like somebody else, and you have no place to go? And you know what? If I lose votes over that, or if I don't get a nomination over that, that's just fine with me.

BASH: Because it would be government assistance, effectively?

TRUMP: It's has to -- you have to help people.

BASH: Let's talk about immigration. You have said that, when it comes to the 11 million -- I'm -- we're not exactly sure how many are here.


TRUMP: Nobody knows.


TRUMP: Nobody knows.

BASH: They're illegal, undocumented. You have said that those who are criminals should be thrown out of the country. I think everyone pretty much, you know, would agree with you on that.

TRUMP: No, I don't think so. A lot of people think they should stay here.

BASH: OK. Well, let's just -- let's just -- for argument's sake, for argument's sake, let's just say you're president, you would do that.


BASH: What happens to the other people? What do you do?


BASH: Yes.

TRUMP: Right.

Number one, the first thing we would do is get the bad ones out. We have a lot of bad dudes, as I said. You have a lot of really bad people here. They're in our prisons and they're clogging up our prisons. I want them to go back, and not only Mexico. I want to get them back to the country where they -- and I want them to be in their prisons.

So, I want to get the bad ones out, not only the ones in the prisons -- and, by the way, and they're never coming back -- not only the ones in the prisons, but the ones that are going around like in San Francisco and shooting Kate, and shooting Jamiel, and shooting people that should not -- that should be with us. OK.

One, we have a law, right? You're supposed to come in legally. I would get people out and I would have an expedited way of getting them back into the country, so they can be legal. Let them be legal.


BASH: Let me just hold on that point right there, because when you say get people out, are you talking like a mass deportation?

TRUMP: We don't even know who these people are.

BASH: But how do you find them?

TRUMP: We have got to find them. BASH: But how do you do that?


BASH: You're a business guy.

TRUMP: Excuse me. We have got to find them.

BASH: But how?

TRUMP: Politicians are not going to find them, because they have no clue. We will find them. We will get them out.

BASH: When you say still get them out, just the process of that, there are a lot of smart people who have been focused on this for a long time say it's just not feasible.


TRUMP: It's feasible if you know how to manage. Politicians don't know how to manage.

We have to bring great people into this country. OK? And I want to bring -- I love the idea of immigration, but it's got to be legal immigration. Now, a lot of these people are helping us, whether it's the grapes or whether it's jobs. And sometimes it's jobs. In all fairness, I love our country, but sometimes it's jobs that a citizen of the United States doesn't even want to do.

There are jobs that a lot of people don't want to do. I want to move them out. I want to move them back in and let them be legal. But they have to be in here legally.

BASH: Legally like...


TRUMP: Excuse me. Otherwise, you don't have a country. You don't have a country. If people can just pour into the country illegally, you don't have a country. But I would expedite the system.

BASH: When you say legal, do you mean legal status or can they be eligible for citizenship?

TRUMP: Legal status.

BASH: No citizenship?

TRUMP: No citizenship.

We will see. Later down the line, who knows what is going to happen, but legal status.


BASH: So you're open to... (CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: It's something I would think about, but I would say, right now, no, I'm not open to it. I would say legal status.

BASH: What about the dreamers? What about people who came here when they were children, they didn't know what they were doing, they came with their parents who brought them here illegally? Now many of them are upstanding citizens.

We -- again, you're right. We don't know exactly how many people, but about maybe even 1.8 million people fall into this category. Should they be able to stay legally?

TRUMP: We're going to do something. I have been giving it so much thought.

You have -- on a humanitarian basis, you have a lot of deep thought going into this, believe me. I actually have a big heart, something that nobody knows. A lot of people don't understand that. But the dreamers, it's a tough situation. We're going to do something. And one of the things we are going to do is expedite. When someone is terrific, we want them back here.


BASH: Should they have to leave too?

TRUMP: But they have to be legally.

They're with their parents, it depends. But, look, it sounds cold, and it sounds hard. We have a country. Our country is going to hell. We have to have a system where people are legally in our country.

BASH: About the Republican National Committee, I know that you have been talking to the chair, Reince Priebus.

TRUMP: I have.

BASH: Can you give me some insight into those conversations? Why are you so much more positive now? Is it just because you're the front- runner?

TRUMP: I don't think I have changed. I think that, you know, I have gotten some amazing polls. You look at the poll in New Hampshire or you look at the poll in Iowa...

BASH: But what about these conversations that you have been talking about?

TRUMP: I think that the conversations are very nice. I respect him.

Look, the best way to win is for me to win the nomination, and I will beat Hillary. Believe me, I will beat Hillary. Hillary, I don't even know if she is going to be able to run, because what she did is a criminal act. She burned up the e-mails. She got rid of her hard drive.

She had subpoenas from the United States Congress. General Petraeus was destroyed for doing far less. They destroyed this general's life, and what he did is far less than what she's done. So, I don't know that she's going to make it.

I don't think it's going to be Bernie Sanders. I think other people are going to probably join the race eventually, like maybe Biden and other people. But I'm not so sure that she is even going to be in the race, because what she did is a criminal act. And the only reason she's maybe and probably not going to be prosecuted is because all the prosecutors are Democrats. Otherwise, she wouldn't have a chance. What she did is far worse than Petraeus.


TAPPER: Well, that was quite a thing.

Dana, aside from going after the attorney, Donald Trump, I have to say, in this interview, he seemed a touch more mellow, slightly less bombastic than we have seen in recent weeks. I wouldn't use the word statesmanlike, but a little bit calmer maybe. Did that hold up all the way through the whole interview?

BASH: It did, Jake. And I actually even mentioned that to him during the indeed.

I said, you know, you seem like you really have toned it down, because he sort of has going after some of his critics who have gone after him about his tone. But that's why I asked him about the Republican National Committee chair.

They clearly -- they both have said that they spoke last week, but since then, he has not been lashing out at his Republican opponents really, and, you know, perhaps I think just observing this all, Jake, it seems as though he does have a pretty secure place in both of the first key states, New Hampshire and Iowa, doing pretty well.

And I think that he is feeling that pressure to sort of be a little bit more of a politician and a front-runner, and more importantly his opponents and the party, they're saying, oh, this is real. We have to treat him that way. And I think it's a combination of the two.

TAPPER: Although he certainly wasn't holding his fire against Hillary Clinton.


BASH: No, he wasn't. But Republicans all like that, so...

TAPPER: Right, right. Of course.

Dana Bash, thank you so much.

In our national lead, a white police officer indicted this afternoon for murder in the shooting death of an unarmed black man. The prosecutor called it -- quote -- "the most asinine act" he has every seen from a police officer, and the whole thing was caught on the cop's body camera -- that story next.



[16:17:45] AUDREY DUBOSE, SLAIN DRIVER'S MOTHER: And I'm so thankful that everything was uncovered. And thank God, because this one did not go unsolved.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Heartbreaking words from a mother saying through her tears, finding solace that the police officer accused of murdering her son has now been indicted.

Welcome back to THE LEAD.

Some breaking news in our national lead today. That was Audrey DuBose. Her son Samuel was shot and killed by a white University of Cincinnati police officer during a traffic stop earlier this month. Now, prosecutors have released the officer's body cam video of the deadly encounter.

And you see the officer, Ray Tensing, ask for DuBose's license and then for a bottle of some kind he spotted on the floor, possibly alcohol. DuBose hands that bottle over. Officer Tensing then asked DuBose to take his seat belt off, and then they struggle over the door. You hear the sounds of gunshots. Samuel DuBose had been shot in the back of the head.

The prosecutor Joseph Deters said today that his view of what happened is unequivocal. This was a murder, he called it the more asinine active ever seen a police officer make.

Let's bring in CNN's Jason Carroll.

Jason, prosecutors very, very strong words today in handing down this indictment.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Jake, and rare to hear prosecutors call such words. The prosecutor called what happened on July 19th there in Cincinnati, he called it a senseless act, saying that this officer probably never should have been a police officer.

And when asked about the stop specifically, he can barely contain his words. You're seeing some of the video from it there. He was extremely angry. And when one reporter asked about the stop, you know, stop for the front license plate being missing, he called it a, quote, "chicken crap stop".

TAPPER: Jason --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOE DETERS, HAMILTON COUNTY PROSECUTOR: I've been doing this for more than 30 years. This is the most asinine act I've seen a police officer make, totally unwarranted. It was -- it's an absolute tragedy in the year 2015 that anyone would behave in this manner.

[16:20:02] It was senseless, and I met with the family just moments ago. It's just horrible.

MARK O'MARA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER: You can't look at that video and say that that police report follows the video. It doesn't. It contradicts it.

So, my concern, having done this for a long, long time is just that. That, you know, you look at police reports and they can be self- serving. This one obviously was. And if there wasn't a video available, I do not believe he would have had an indictment.


CARROLL: That was Mark O'Mara there. He is the attorney representing the DuBose family.

When the prosecutor was asked, Jake, about why he believes the officer reacted the way that he did, he said he just believes this officer lost his temper, quote, "because DuBose would not get out of the car" -- Jake.

TAPPER: Some context here, Jason. Cincinnati obviously ruled that there was an incident back in 2001.

CARROLL: Oh, right.

TAPPER: There are a lot of riots. And the mayor came out to plead that there be restraint in the community. The family also addressed the prospect of violence. What did they have to say?

CARROLL: They did. Also the prosecutor made it very clear that he was so disappointed and distraught, not just because of the shooting, but all because the police in Cincinnati had done so much since those riots back in 2001 to build relations with those members of the African-American community.

DuBose's family is speaking out today. They've been pushing for that body cam to be released. Listen to what they had to say, very quickly.


AUDREY DUBOSE, SLAIN DRIVER'S BROTHER: I want everybody just to lift up their hands in prayer and thank God, because this one did not go unsolved. So just lift up your hands and thank God.

AUBREY DUBOSE, SLAIN DRIVER'S BROTHER: We have a higher purpose to serve. It's bigger than just him being a great brother, a great son. He had a purpose for the whole country, the whole world. Everybody could see these effects, these changes in how Cincinnati handles things properly.


COSTELLO: Officer Tensing turned himself in this afternoon, Jake. He now facing murder charges, expected to be in court tomorrow -- Jake.

TAPPER: Jason Carroll, thank you so much.

Let's talk about this indictment with CNN law enforcement analyst and president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement executives, Cedric Alexander. Also with us, former prosecutor Paul Butler from Georgetown University Law School.

Cedric, let me start with you. Do you see any reason for Officer Tensing to use his gun at all?

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, I don't think, Jake. If we take a look at that video and no matter how much we watch it at this point, there's nothing in that video to suggest that that young man should have died the way that he did. This was just a horrible, horrible tragedy that should not have occurred whatsoever. But thank God for the video because it gives us clear, clear evidence of what occurred in those few seconds.

And the fact that that video does not line up with his report that he wrote, and also with the statement that his partner made is even just as troubling.

TAPPER: Well, that's -- Paul, let me ask you about this. First, he knew he was wearing a body camera. Why file a report that doesn't even remotely square with what investigators were obviously going to see. There's always an investigation when there's a dead body.

PAUL BUTLER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Thank God for the video instead. Without it, there would not be an indictment in this case.

And, of course African-Americans especially have been making allegations about this against police officers for decades, and they haven't been believed. Now that there's video, often, there's more credible evidence.

It's still not dispositive. The defense attorney is going to say thank God for the second video. Apparently, there's another dash cam video that the defense alleges shows something else. So, it's not going to show what the police report says, so we know that police report is a big lie. It's fabricated.

But apparently you know, we have this blue wall of silence in these cases, so the defense is hoping to make something of this other video.

TAPPER: We have another case here, Cedric, where a routine stop ends with another dead body. Have you ever seen something so stark? He was pulled over for missing a license tag of some sort. He ends up dead. There didn't even seem to be any possible justification for it.

ALEXANDER: Well, you know, I've been in and out of this business, Jake, about 38 years. I think myself along with a number of other police officials and administrators across this country probably would attest to the fact that, no, we have never seen anything like this before.

[16:25:02] This is not part of any training protocol, and to be able to go from zero to 100 as quickly as this officer did in this particular case is very disturbing to us all. So, to the point of your question, absolutely not, never seen or experienced anything like this whatsoever.

TAPPER: And how prevalent? Obviously, we need to make the point that police officers are good officers, most of them obey the law, most of them are there trying to serve the community. But how prevalent in this kind of attitude do you think nationally? How much of a problem do you think it is?

BUTLER: Well, Jake, I wish I could say I've never seen anything like this before, but in some ways, it doesn't look that different from Tamir Rice, the 12-year-old boy who was gone down by cops in Cincinnati, and also Walter Scott with North Ferguson, who the police officers shot like an animal when he was running away. So, this is --

TAPPER: Charleston, in Charleston.

BUTLER: In Charleston, yes. So, this is North Charleston, this is any endemic problem and what we need here is better training. I don't know why the university police are enforcing local traffic laws. They don't get the same training that regular police officers get. So, that's a problem. Again, we really have to ask, this really caused the needs for some kinds of national standards for police departments to prevent circumstances like this. A lot of people, especially police officers, are afraid of African-American men. They're more likely to shoot unarmed black men.

TAPPER: Paul Butler, Cedric Alexander, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

ALEXANDER: Thank you.

TAPPER: In our world lead, large pieces of debris from a plane found near an island in the Indian Ocean, now investigators are trying to find out if it could be possibly from missing flight MH370. That story, next.

Plus, he says the deal with Iran will send Israelis to the, quote, "door of the oven". But what does former Governor Mike Huckabee have to say about comments he made in 2008, arguing that diplomacy with Iran is called for? We'll talk about that, next.