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Roof's Gun Purchase; Confederate Flag Removed; New Al Qaeda Threat. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 10, 2015 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[14:00:00] BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: For our viewers in North America, "Newsroom" with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Brianna Keilar, thank you so much. Happy Friday to you all. I'm Brooke Baldwin. This is CNN.

And we begin with breaking news. We now know Dylann Roof, that 21- year-old who walked into that historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina, should never have had that gun he used to kill those nine innocent victims. We are just getting this information coming in to CNN from the FBI. It has been more than three weeks since that senseless and racist church massacre. And today, for the very first time, that flag that has divided the state for decades and was embraced by this killer no longer flies next to the state capital there in Columbia, South Carolina.

Cheers this morning erupting as that flag came down for the very last time.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I have Nick Valencia, who has been following what's happened with the flag there in Columbia, but first, Pamela Brown, let me go straight to you, our justice correspondent, on the breaking news with regard to Dylann Roof.

So he never should have gotten the gun in the first place?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. And that remarkable admission coming from the FBI director, James Comey. He says that the FBI made a mistake when it conducted Dylann Roof's background check when he purchased a gun back in April in South Carolina. And basically it was a breakdown in the system here, Brooke. It was a confusion with paperwork, confusion in the system. So essentially the FBI examiner conducting the background check never made contact with Columbia, South Carolina, police, which arrested Dylann Roof for - on a felony drug charge. And during that arrest, he admitted to police that he had the possession of the drugs. Had the FBI known that, he would have never been able to buy that gun because he would have never passed the background check.

So there are a series of - as Director Comey says - improbable factors that led to this resulted. He said that it is sickening to him and to the rest of the FBI that this happened. It's really heartbreaking. He said, we actually met with him yesterday, Brooke, and this never came up. What happened was, he said last night, after looking at all the facts, that is when he felt confident as to what happened here and he reached this conclusion that, look, we made a mistake here and we should own up to it. And that's what he did today.

BALDWIN: So we're learning that, as you point out, the system broke down. So, Pamela Brown, thank you for that intel. Obviously we can have another conversation on that and follow up with that.

But, Nick Valencia, let me just go to you there at the statehouse. No longer over your shoulder is the confederate flag flying high. Can you talk me through what that was like this morning when it was removed?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I was right there within the crowd and it was mixed emotions. There were some that were turning their backs to the flag removal process because they didn't agree with the decision by lawmakers, a divisive margin to permanently remove that flag from state grounds. Still others were seeing this as an historic moment, a joyous occasion, starting chanting to take it down. There was chants of "USA."

As far as what happens to the flag now, it was taken in a caravan, an armored vehicle with the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, took that flag a couple of blocks away to the Confederate Relic Room and Military Museum where it will stay. Now, part of the joint resolution, this senate agreement, is that the flag will be - will remain there. They have until January 1st to decide exactly how to handle it and how it will be displayed. The director was telling me that they are an accredited museum, so it matters how they exhibit this flag.

The other flag, 15 years ago there was an intense debate to remove the flag from the top of the capital and then that's when you saw this flag here, that was just taken down earlier today, put at the Confederate Soldiers Memorial. That other flag that was on the top of the capital, Brooke, that's in the neighboring museum to where we just were and the place that I was mentioning, that Relic Room.

So now that flag's there and it's not on display. It's in a storage room - storage facility right now. It's not quite clear exactly when it will be on display, but they have until January 1st to figure that all out.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, Nick, thank you very much.

We also have Don Lemon, who is in South Carolina. He spoke with the governor there, Governor Nikki Haley, about why it was time for this flag to come down and also how lawmakers found a way to finally make this happen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: It's important for people to know what it's like to be in another person's shoes. And if you watch the legislative debate, that's what happened. People put themselves in each other's shoes, so they understood what the respect of tradition and heritage was and that it wasn't about hate. But the other side also learned how painful that flag was and the pain that it was causing people. That's what brought South Carolina to this new day, was the ability to look at each other and listen and say, it's time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:05:18] BALDWIN: You will hear much more with Governor Haley and Don Lemon at the top of the next hour, 3:00 Eastern, here on CNN.

Meantime, staying in South Carolina, let me bring in Democratic State Representative Jerry Govan.

Representative Govan, welcome.

JERRY GOVAN (D), SOUTH CAROLINA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

BALDWIN: A pleasure to have you, sir.

And, listen, I know that this is very personal for you. From what I've read, you actually bear the scars, not just symbolically but physically, of the state's racist past. So I want to ask you about that in a second. But first, my question to you, why did it take so long for your state to bring this flag down, do you think?

GOVAN: Well, you know, we were at this point 15 years ago. I've been here 23 years and a member of the statehouse committee. We had a shot at bringing it down when we renovated the statehouse, to do what Alabama did. We failed to take advantage of that opportunity. And then in 2000, of course, we had - because of the pressure that was put on by the boycotts and whatnot, under then Governor Jim Hodges and with the assistance of the chamber of commerce, the NAACP, other organizations, the legislative black caucus, there was a move to take the flag down then.

We came a little short. And I want you to know, there was partial success because at that time the naval jet, which you were referring to in your earlier piece, was flying above the statehouse and naval jets were also being flown in the chambers of the senate and the house. And so what we were able to successfully do was to have those three flags particularly removed and the one atop the dome of the statehouse to come down, the naval jacks.

But what happened is that, simply put, when we got into this resolution period, like we were the other night in terms of the debate, a compromise was reached to put the flag where it currently - where it was previously flown in terms of the flag of northern Virginia, which never flew above the statehouse.

BALDWIN: Right.

GOVAN: And so many of us voted against that particular resolution in terms of saying that it wouldn't resolve the issue and that we would have to revisit it. But never in my mind did I think that we - we would get a chance to do it. I thought maybe another generation because of the sensitivity of the issue.

BALDWIN: I mean I'm thinking, what would have changed in the last 15 years, the symbolism of the flag hasn't changed, but obviously what happened in Charleston. It seems to me, given everything I heard on the floor of both the state senate and the house, that - that did it.

I do want to ask you - I found it interesting when I was watching the removal this morning and we know that the governor indicated this would be the case, you had these uniformed highway patrol officers really delicately, white gloved, you know, respectfully removing the flag, folding the flag very carefully. And I'm just wondering, with all of these cries on both sides of the aisle to remove this flag, it was important, clearly, to note the respect that was paid to this flag. And I was just wondering, representative, why was that still so important?

GOVAN: Well, you know, it's important because - and I'm speaking personally, you know, as a Marine and so on and having family members who served in the military. You have to understand, I think people need to make this distinction. This particular flag that flew at the confederate memorial, the confederate monument was a battle flag. And so it was furled in, I think, in a way and in a manner that was appropriate for the furrowing of any military banner.

And so I think it was - it's important for the healing that has to take place in South Carolina because even though we see the removal of the flag and the symbolism that it represents, it means different things to different people. And so even though we see the physical removal of it, I think hearts and minds have to be changed and that's going to take some time. And so I think doing it in due and proper order and doing it in a respectful manner, hopefully that will expedite that process of healing, not only for South Carolina, but I think for the deep south as well.

BALDWIN: Just quickly, sir, I alluded to this off the top and I'd be remiss not to follow up. The physical scars you bore as a child, can you tell me about what happened with the nails?

GOVAN: Well, you know, the short of it is, the woman that raised me, my grand aunt, and a friend of hers in a small rural area in South Carolina called Roseville, we were in the process - I was about five - between five - about five years old. And what happened was, we were on the side of the road, a two - a two-lane road, very narrow, and, of course, a truck came by. And in the back of that truck hung the confederate flag and some white youth on that truck. They called us the "n" word, which I won't repeat for national TV. But I turned around and looked because I heard the people yelling and screaming at us and I happened to turn around and look and a bag of nails was flown and it hit me in the face.

[14:10:28] And as a result of that, and an infection that resulted as a result of that, I ended up bearing the scars of which still remain today. It's gone down a lot, but every day I looked in the mirror I had to see that and the vestiges and I can just, in my mind, just see that flag and being called that "n word and having nails flung in my face. I think that's - at that point - BALDWIN: And just -

GOVAN: At that point, I think I probably subconsciously dedicated my life as a kid that I wanted to bring about change and I've been involved in movements, advocating change ever since.

BALDWIN: Yes, sir. Well, as a Marine, I thank you for your service and just thank you so much for sharing such a personal story. This matters to a lot of people. Representative Jerry Govan, thank you, in Columbia.

GOVAN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And joining me now on the phone, one of the country's leading and most renowned documentary filmmakers, I have Ken Burns. His film, "The Civil War," broke viewing records for PBS when it premiered in 1990. The film examined the meaning behind the confederate flag, in part, and called it out as a symbol of racism and white supremacy.

So, Ken Burns, an honor and a pleasure, sir. Thanks for calling in.

KEN BURNS, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER (via telephone): Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: I want to get to your doc in just a second, but, first, could you just react to the news today of that removal? I mean when you were doing your doc, you know, 25 years ago now, did you think that the removal of this flag would ever happen in a state like South Carolina?

BURNS: No, I didn't. I didn't, Brooke. This is a really good day. But it's only a first step. I think the president said that. I think that Governor Haley also implied this. We have a lot of work to do to heal. What's, you know, symbols and symbolic gestures are hugely important and this is clearly a powerful symbol and this gesture is hugely powerful. But we now have to work to change the hearts and minds of people who obviously have inherited a legacy of racism. And it's - it's a more recent one. Remember, as you've talked a great deal, that this is the southern cross is not the flag of the confederacy. When Ft. Sumter fell, what flew over it was the stars and bars, not the southern cross -

BALDWIN: That's right.

BURNS: Which was a battle flag, one of battle flags of the army of northern Virginia, and that's it. And its prominence in our consciousness has come up only since 1954.

Now, what happened in 1954? Brown versus Board of Education. This flag became the symbol of entrenched racism. Resistance to civil rights. And that's very funny because the Declaration of Independence was written by a southerner, Thomas Jefferson, who, though he was a slave owner, said all men are created equal and set in motion this tension that we were going to have over the issue of race.

And it's still playing out today. We see it everywhere. And today represent a good first step. But we can't - you know, as the president said, you know, we're done with the conversations. We actually have to go in and examine hearts and find out why we still judge people based on the color of their skin and not the content of their character, as Dr. King said.

BALDWIN: And not the content of their character. That's right.

Let me just pause and explain to our viewers what you're looking at. These are live pictures. So this is the flag pole. This is where the flag flew for all those years. And so now the next step will be the removal of the flagpole. So that process has just begun.

Ken Burns, I am so glad you bring this point up because there has been much ado, obviously, about this flag and it's been significant. But Charles Blow - I read an article - this is his opinion piece from "The New York Times," precisely to your point, he wrote this. That the removal of the flag is well and good, "and yet there is a big part of me that still believes we are focusing on the 10 percent of the iceberg above the water and not the 90 percent below. When do we move from our consensus over taking down symbols to the much harder and more important work of taking down structures? I worry much less about individual expressions of racism than I do about the institutional expressions of racism." I mean knowing the history of what brought about the Civil War and the residual symbol of the confederate flag, my question is, in terms of, you know, content of character, how do we take this conversation - what do we - what do we need to tackle next?

BURNS: Well, we don't want to diminish in any way how important this was because, remember, when the Alabama governor, a week or so ago, goes and takes the flag down and now South Carolina, the birthplace of the confederacy, the first state to secede, that never once, you know, mentioned in its articles of secession states' rights or there mumbo jumbo but talked about perpetuating slavery, changes, that's a big deal.

[14:15:07] And symbols are important. And, yes, maybe all we can see on our horizon is that tip of the iceberg. And, yes, of course, as in all things, what lies below. We now have to roll up our sleeves and say, let's examine this. Where - where do we suddenly get into perpetuating the idea that this was an argument about keeping our heritage when it's not? It's about keeping our hatred. And we don't want to do that. And I think South Carolina, of all places, said, you know what, we don't want to do this. We don't want to make people wrong. We just want to say this represents something that's abhorrent, not just to the African-American citizens of that state or of this country, but to everyone who believes in what our country stands for, which is equality under the law.

And we now have to go and say, why do these vestiges of racism, why does this vestige of discrimination and this legacy of hate perpetuate itself?

BALDWIN: That's right.

BURNS: I mean I've studied the gruesome lynching photographs from the '20s and the '30s and you see little kids there smiling, happy.

BALDWIN: Smiling. That's right. BURNS: And - and they're - they may still be alive. And what are they teaching their kids and grandkids and great grandkids? Somehow we have to stop and say, you know what, this greatest of all countries also has this original sin, tolerating (INAUDIBLE) slavery in a country dedicated to human rights. What can we now do beyond important symbols? And this is a hugely important symbolic moment. A day we should cherish. But how to move forward is the question we have to do and it isn't just continuing to move all of this around our plates. We've got to - we've got to, as Blow said, you know, go deep into this. And I think learning our history and understanding that if you're about heritage, why aren't you flying the stars and bars? What flew over Ft. Sumter? What flew over the confederate capital at Montgomery and later Richmond.

BALDWIN: I understand.

BURNS: And not a battle flag that has come to mean in the last 61 years resistance to desegregation.

BALDWIN: They're questions we should be - we should be asking and we should all be rolling up our sleeves and delving deeper. May this be the beginning of that.

Ken Burns, please come back. Thank you so much.

BURNS: It's my pleasure, Brooke. Thank you.

BALDWIN: And let me just point out - let me point out, the remastered version of his classic civil war documentary will broadcast this September on PBS. Can you believe it's been 25 years after it originally aired. Ken Burns, I appreciate it.

Next, after one of the worst data breaches in U.S. history, a major resignation today. The head of the Office of Personnel Management appointed by President Obama now stepping down. We're getting late reaction from the White House, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:21:54] BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The worst data breach in U.S. government history has cost tens of millions their private data and now it's cost one Obama appointee her job. The director of the Office of Personnel Management here, Katherine Archuleta, has stepped down. Calls for her resignation have grown after lawmakers learned the number of victims was actually 22 million. That is more than five times that original number reported.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Director Archuleta did offer her resignation today. She did so of her own volition. She recognizes, as the White House does, that the urgent challenges currently facing the Office of Personnel Management require a manager with a specialized set of skills and experiences. That's precisely why the president has accepted her resignation. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The White House has named Beth Cobert as interim director. She has served as deputy director at the Office of Management and Budget.

A new threat against the United States. Not from ISIS, but from one of the most dangerous branches of al Qaeda, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, or AQAP, headquartered in Yemen. And the threat is coming straight from its new leader now, Qassim al Raymi. He says this in a new video, quote, "all of you must direct and gather your arrows and swords against it."

Let me bring in the author of the book, "Foreign and Domestic," retired U.S. Army Brigadier General Anthony Tata.

General Tata, welcome back.

BRIGADIER GENERAL ANTHONY TATA, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Great to be here, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let's talk about this Qassim al Raymi. His predecessor, killed in a drone strike last month.

TATA: That's right.

BALDWIN: What do we know about his background? How capable is he?

TATA: So he's one bad individual, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Bad guy.

TATA: He trained with bin Laden at Tarnak Farms in Afghanistan prior to 9/11. He participated in the USS Cole bombing in Yemen. He's from Yemen.

BALDWIN: Did I read - he broke out of prison at one point in '06?

TATA: He broke - he was one of the ones that broke out of prison in '06.

BALDWIN: Yes.

TATA: He led the civil war against the government of Yemen. That has now set up a separate emirate within Yemen. And he has a brother in Gitmo. So he's one motivated individual. He's very strategic. He's very anti-west. He was a military commander of al Qaeda on the Arabian Peninsula. So this is one individual that, you know, they didn't have to go far on the depth chart to find somebody who's capable.

BALDWIN: To find him. Part of - in reading about what it was he said in this video, he swore - part of what he did is he swore his allegiance to the once leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri. And I'm wondering why he did that?

TATA: Sure. BALDWIN: And why not, let's say, a bin Laden?

TATA: Well, so, of course, bin Laden's dead. But the main reason for doing that is, there's a little rift between ISIS and al Qaeda. They're both Sunni Muslim and they're - they're moving along this chess board for power and aligning themselves with the parent organization of al Qaeda sends a very clear signal that he's not allied with ISIS. And it helps that balance of power within the Sunni population that he was going for. And I think he appreciates al Qaeda's message against the west and their drive against the west, to destroy the west, and ISIS is focused on Iraq, whereas al Qaeda has always been focused on getting the west out of the Arabian peninsula, getting corporations out of there, getting the military out of there and then defeating the west as well. So it's a little different brand of terrorism.

[14:25:21] BALDWIN: OK. General Tata, thank you very much.

Let me just go quickly, as I'm being told, to Columbia, South Carolina. Let's go to the live pictures. And here you go, the pole from where that confederate flag once flew, that is now officially down. Live pictures here from the state capital in South Carolina. The flag came down this morning and now the pole is gone. The flag next heading to a museum. We will take you back to South Carolina, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:02] BALDWIN: It's as if now it wasn't even there. These are pictures from moments ago. First you know, this big day in the state capital of north - South Carolina, that confederate flag removed and now the pole.