Return to Transcripts main page

CNN NEWSROOM

Church Massacre Called Terrorism; Dylann Roof Waves Council; Confederate Flag Controversy; Lyle Mitchell's Attorney Speaks About Client; Richard Matt and David Sweat Added to Most Wanted List. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired June 19, 2015 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[09:31:00] CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

Today at 2:00 p.m. Eastern, Dylann Roof is expected to face a judge for the first time. Law enforcement officials say he has confessed to killing nine African-Americans as they prayed in church. So Roof may be a killer, but is he ultimately guilty of terrorism? It's a conversation America is having right now. This was on my Facebook page. It's from Georgy. He writes, quote, "black shooter = thug. Muslim shooter = terrorist. White shooter = mental illness...???" What is up with that.

You've heard this argument, right? Dylann Roof's murder spree was not motivated by hate, but because he was deranged. Even though posts to his Facebook page show him posing with white power patches on his jacket, even though witnesses said he shouted, "you're raping our women and taking over the country" before he opened fire. Not only is it racism, but that sounds like terrorism to me. And CNN is now calling it that.

So, let's talk about this more. With me now, John Avlon, editor of "The Daily Beast," Anushay Hussein, journalist and editor-in-chief of Anushayspoint.com, and Marc Lamont Hill, host of "Huff Post Live."

Welcome to all of you.

ANUSHAY HOSSAIN, JOURNALIST: Thank you, Carol.

MARC LAMONT HILL, HOST, "HUFF POST LIVE": Good to be here, Carol.

JOHN AVLON, EDITOR, "THE DAILY BEAST": Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Thanks for being here.

So the FBI defines terrorism as, quote, "the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property, to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population or any segment thereof in furtherance of political or social objectives."

Anushay, sources say Roof confessed, he wanted to start a race war. Does that make him a terrorist?

HOSSAIN: Yes, it does, actually. And I think our entire response and discussion over the fact if he is race - if he is a terrorist or not is completely racist. Just for one second imagine if this shooter was black or if he was Muslim. Without any question, we would immediately be holding an entire religion and an entire race accountable. But all of a sudden, because we're dealing with a white shooter, I mean we're immediately generating sympathy for him by questioning his state of his mental health and whatnot. So there should be no question whatsoever that this man is a terrorist.

COSTELLO: John, I have heard more than one politician describe this shooter as a deranged person. I haven't heard them come out and say he's a racist or a white supremacist. So what's that about?

AVLON: Well, I think some conservative politicians have a real problem confronting racism and they'd rather say is in initial volleys after this attack that it was an attack on faith or focusing on mental illness. I will say, though, of course, it's entirely possible for someone to be both deranged, mentally ill, racist and a terrorist. This is an act of mental - of racially motivated terrorism. There is no question about that, especially now that we know that he said he wanted to start a race war. It absolutely falls within that statute and it should be dealt with as such. And in with all cases of attacks and terrorism, you need to focus on the individual, you need to focus on the larger ideology and not extend a vast group blame. That should be a no-brainer at this point.

COSTELLO: Yes. So, Marc, why is it so difficult for some people just to call this guy a terrorist?

HILL: Because, unfortunately, we live in a nation where terrorist has come to mean things done by Muslims or things done by Arabs or things done by brown people. You know, we often only assign the term terrorism to those groups of people. The truth is, we've never wanted to name white supremacist as terrorism, whether it's Timothy McVeigh, although I'm not calling - although that's a slightly different story, we still didn't want to call it domestic terrorism. We don't - we don't want to call the KKK domestic terrorists. It's not something that we ever historically wanted to do.

AVLON: That's - I don't - Marc -- Marc, you know, you're an academic and I think you know then that obviously not only is the KKK a terrorist organization, but in the case of Timothy McVeigh, which was the last time we saw vast, right wing militia violence, although there have been a steady stream of militia violence and terrorist activity in the United States from the right as well as the threats we face from jihadists. Those are acts of terrorism. They've been classified as such, and they should be.

[09:35:03] HILL: No, they absolutely should be. What I'm saying is our default response. For example, last year, a guy cut off a co-workers head at work and we immediately said it was terrorism before we knew whether or not he was mentally ill, whether we knew if he was connected to al Qaeda or not because of his faith and because of the nature of the act itself. The difference is, when it - often - when it often happens with white citizens in America, our default response, even when it looks like terrorism, isn't terrorism. But I agree with Timothy McVeigh, we ultimately did call it that and that's why I said it's a slightly different case. But in many other cases, we don't do that. Even the KKK, we historically don't call them terrorist groups.

COSTELLO: And -

HOSSAIN: I completely agree with -

COSTELLO: Anushay, go ahead.

HOSSAIN: I completely agree with Marc. It's about our default response. What we've kind of been programmed to respond says - says so much about what we really - what we really believe. And what is dangerous about this is that eventually our issue with labeling this a terrorist act, eventually and ultimately puts more American lives at risk. If we don't correctly label these acts as acts of terrorism, we're actually denying that there is a very clear pattern between mass shooting, white shooters and white privilege. This is what we need to discuss.

COSTELLO: OK, and, John, I just want to lay one more thing by you. I interviewed a state senator on the air yesterday. He called Dylann Roof a thug. So he brought back the word "thug." And I just found that interesting since, you know, during the height of the Baltimore controversy, "thug" came to mean a certain thing.

AVLON: Look -

HILL: I think "thug" is appropriate. I don't know if it's the best word, though. I mean, again, I think terrorist is a far more powerful term because it's more specific to the political dimensions of this - the systemic dimensions of this and the widespread impact that it has. Were his acts thug-ish? Sure. Just like the acts of many corporates honchoes are thug-ish. But I don't always use that word, not because it's not accurate, but because I don't think it's necessarily - it's analytically precise and specific and powerful as terrorist to be in this case.

COSTELLO: John, button it up for us. What were you going to say?

AVLON: Yes. Well, look, I just would say that, you know, we have a problem with right wing militia racist terrorism. This guy was talking about a race war. So was Timothy McVeigh. (INAUDIBLE) from books (ph). We also simultaneously have a - clearly a global jihadist threat, which has affected us from 9/11, has affected people around the world every day. Those two things both can exist at the same time. The government should be able to focus on both of them. And they are not intention. We must confront both of them open-eyed without denying one or slipping into some kind of moral equivalency.

COSTELLO: All right. Thanks for having such an interesting conversation this morning to all of you, John Avlon, Anushay Hossain, Marc Lamont Hill.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, why critics are calling on South Carolina to take down the confederate flag from outside the state capitol. We'll talk about that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [09:42:05] COSTELLO: All right, we have new information on the South Carolina church massacre. Police have just released the arrest warrants for Dylann Roof, which shows he has waived his right to council in North Carolina. I have the document right here.

Paul Callan, our legal analyst, has been perusing it.

How significant is this?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I find it to be unusual that he didn't ask for a lawyer in North Carolina because he could have gotten a lawyer appointed and he could have contested the move to South Carolina, which would have caused a whole bunch of proceedings in North Carolina, maybe televised, given him more publicity. He's probably somebody who wants that. So it's a little unusual.

But, instead, he waived his right to council and said, take me back to South Carolina. He has a very unusual signature on it, although maybe not so unusual in this day and age. It's just sort of big, block letters. Looks very child-like. But I - I can't read much into it because younger people today don't use cursive, or script as we used to call it, as much. They use the block letters.

COSTELLO: Right.

CALLAN: So I wouldn't read too much into that. I think -

COSTELLO: So - so when he appears in court today, they'll probably appoint him a public defender, right?

CALLAN: Yes, they will. Yes.

COSTELLO: And then he'll decide whether or not he wants to use that lawyer.

CALLAN: Or private council may come in. A lot of times in these high profile cases, a private lawyer comes in and gets involved in the case. So - but this will fade into oblivion, I think. I don't think it's that important.

COSTELLO: OK.

CALLAN: OK.

COSTELLO: Paul Callan, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

CALLAN: All right. Thank you.

COSTELLO: We're also learning new details about that - we are also learning more details about the massacre in South Carolina that, as you know, claimed the lives of nine innocent people. An official tells CNN Dylann Roof not only confessed to gunning down his victims, but said he wanted to start a race war. That admission makes images like this one hard to stomach. Yes, that's a confederate flag license plate on Roof's car. This morning, many are calling on South Carolina to take down the confederate flag outside of the state capitol. On Twitter there's even a hash tag called #takeitdownsouthcarolina. Earlier today, Senator Lindsey Graham weighed in on whether he thought taking down the flag was the right thing to do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: At the end of the day, it's time for people in South Carolina to revisit that decision would be fine with me. But this is part of who we are. The flag represents, to some people, a civil war and that was the symbol of one side, to others it's a racist symbol and it's been used by people as - been used in a racist way. But the problems we have in South Carolina and throughout the world are not because of a movie or symbols, it's because what people's - what's in people's hearts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:45:00] COSTELLO: Joining me now, the senior bishop of the AME church, John Richard Bryant.

Welcome, sir.

JOHN RICHARD BRYANT, SENIOR BISHOP, AME CHURC: Good morning. Thank you very much for having me.

COSTELLO: Thank you for being here. Do you agree with Senator Graham?

BRYANT: I agree that it's time to take it down. I think symbols are extremely important, they're really teachers of the culture, and I've been protesting and been a part of protest movements in South Carolina to take the flag down for more than 20 years. And I really think it's time, and I really think South Carolina has reached the place where they know it's time.

When I had the opportunity to be in the presence and to watch the mayor of the city of Charleston and the governor of the state of South Carolina, the way - the seriousness in which they have dealt with this issue. I think it's baggage, unnecessary baggage that is offensive to a large segment of the population in that state, and of course in the nation.

It's time to take it down.

COSTELLO: You know, it was also touching to see that huge vigil that sprang up right after this tragedy went down, and there were people of all colors standing together, praying together, holding hands. It was a beautiful symbol of unity in this country.

BRYANT: And I think we have to work hard to develop more symbols of that if we're going to deal with this biting issue that has been gnawing at the fabric of the nation that really makes so much of our creeds contradictory. The symbol of what took place in that church yesterday, it has to move out of the churches and into the classrooms, into the community meeting, into the neighborhoods and blocks so that it will truly be the image that America sends across the world. COSTELLO: I want to read you something from "The Atlantic" on the Confederate flag, quote, the "The Confederate flag defenders often claim it represents heritage, not hate. I agree, the heritage of White Supremacy was not so much birthed by hate as by the impulse toward plunder. The flag that Roof embraced, which many South Carolinians embrace, does not stand in opposition to this act, it endorses it."

Can you just react to that?

BRYANT: My reaction to it is what I said formally. When you live in a house, you want that house to be commodious for everyone who lives in it. For the African American community who find the flag offensive, and as a society, as a culture, who is determined to be one nation, under God, indivisible, we really need to do those things that make the whole family comfortable.

For us, that flag represents a history of slavery, a history of segregation, a history of marginalization, system of unequal treatment, and for us it is an offense to have to - and for the citizens there to have to drive and watch it to go by. It's places where they taxes and see it. It is offensive, and I think the community at large knows that it is offensive to a large portion of the community.

COSTELLO: Bishop Bryant, thank you so much for sharing your insight with me this morning. I appreciate it.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, new insights on the husband of the alleged prison break helper. Alexandra Field is in Dannemora, New York.

Good morning.

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, there, Carol. We spoke to Lyle Mitchell's attorney who tells us what his client has been talking to investigators about. He also tells us what's been confiscated from the couple's house.

[09:49:56] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Two escaped killers on the run for 14 days are officially America's most wanted.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

COSTELLO (voice-over): U.S. Marshals adding Richard Matt and David Sweat to their 15 most wanted list, offering a $50,000 reward for information that leads to their capture. This, as that massive manhunt widens. Police clearing more than 160 abandoned buildings near the New York prison where they broke free. Wanted posters now hanging at the Canadian and Mexican borders.

Alexandra Field is in Dannemora, New York, with more.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

COSTELLO (on camera): Good morning.

FIELD: Good morning, Carol.

That most wanted list is reserved for the worst of the worst, and Richard Matt and David Sweat's names are now among them. That $50,000 reward comes on top of a $100,000 reward already in place for any information that leads to the arrest of these two fugitives. New York state police continuing their search in this region, also working with law enforcement officials across the country to track down any leads.

At this point, they're focusing on seasonal cabins and houses that might be empty at this time of year. They're also calling for people to turn in any surveillance video that they may have that may have been recorded on the night of the escape or around that time period.

[09:55:01] And we're hearing a little bit from Lyle Mitchell's attorney. Lyle Mitchell is the husband of Joyce Mitchell, the woman accused of helping the two convicts escape. Mitchell's attorney says that Lyle has a lot of questions now about the woman he thought he knew.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

PETER DUMAS, ATTORNEY FOR LYLE MITCHELL: This is a woman that's been his best friend for 21 years. He's still in love with her, I can tell you that, but he's just in shock now. He doesn't want to help her right now, but she's also still feeling that emotion that, you know, he cares about her.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

FIELD: Lyle Mitchell has not been charged with anything. Prosecutors say there's no evidence that links into the plan at this point, but investigators did collect several items from the Mitchell's household, including two paintings made by Richard Matt, they collected Joyce Mitchell's cellphone, and a car that the couple used to take to and from work here at the Clinton Correctional Facility.

And, Carol, on this prison, life here starting to return to normal in the aftermath of this escape. We're told that the lock down has been lifted, which means inmates will be required to stay in their cells 24 hours a day, they can get back to their prison jobs and even to communal dining spaces, Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, Alexandra Field, reporting from Dannemora, New York, this morning.

The Next hour of CNN NEWSROOM after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)