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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Interview with Former Prison Warden; Another Juror Dismissed From James Holmes Trial. Aired 11:30a-12:00p ET.

Aired June 17, 2015 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:30:00] PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: She hit the ground running from day one. She's already made her mark here at home and abroad because of her laser focus on the core mission of the justice the protection of the American people.

And she understands the importance of policing and improving relationships between law enforcement and communities. She went on a six-city tour to spotlight the challenges in community policing and the progress that's being made. She understands the importance of criminal justice reform. That we have to be smart on crime, not just tough.

That's why she is committed to working as a partner to leaders with both parties who want to pursue reform that continues the trend of a falling crime rate and a falling incarceration rate. She understands the importance of protecting our national security while also securing our civil liberties.

That's why she will safeguard the programs that are critical to protecting American lives and Americans' privacy. I see our FBI director, Jim Comey who's here, and I know he's committed to doing the same thing.

She lives out the words of one of our greatest attorney generals, Robert F. Kennedy. The glory of justice and the majesty of the law are created not just by the constitution nor by the courts nor by the officers of the law nor by the lawyers, but by the men and women who constitute our society, who are protectors of the law as they are themselves protected by the law.

That's always been the story of our nation. Our strength does not come from the words we've written on the page or the laws we've put down on the books. It comes from ordinary citizens, generation after generation, who do their part to uphold our founding ideals.

It comes from an unshakable faith in our ability to stand up for what is right. And to admit where we've fallen short. And then choose a better way forward. That was the cause to which Loretta dedicated her life long before she became America's top law enforcement officer.

Today, the American people can have no greater advocate for their right to equality under the law, no greater partner in securing justice for all than our Attorney General, Loretta Lynch. I'm just going to stand somewhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Loretta Elizabeth Lynch, please place your left hand on the bible and raise your right hand and repeat after me. I Loretta Elizabeth Lynch.

LORETTA ELIZABETH LYNCH, ATTORNEY GENERAL OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I Loretta Elizabeth Lynch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do solemnly swear.

LYNCH: Do solemnly swear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That I will support and defend the constitution of the United States.

LYNCH: That I will support and defend the constitution of the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Against all enemies.

LYNCH: Against all enemies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Foreign and domestic.

LYNCH: Foreign and domestic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same.

LYNCH: That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That I take this obligation freely.

LYNCH: That I take this obligation freely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without any mental reservation.

LYNCH: Without any mental reservation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or purpose of evasion.

LYNCH: Or purpose of evasion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And that I will well and faithfully discharge.

LYNCH: And that I will well and faithfully discharge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The duties of the office.

LYNCH: The duties of the office.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On which I am about to enter.

LYNCH: On which I am about to enter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So help me God.

LYNCH: So help me God.

[11:35:00] BERMAN: All right. Loretta Lynch who has been Attorney General for almost two months already and now, being sworn in ceremonially for a second time. You know, it's been an active - very full, very full two months, I mean, with Baltimore, the federal response to the situation in Loretta Lynch has already shockwaves through the world of soccer by taking on FIFA. So she' been hard at work for two months.

BOLDUAN: That soccer announcement was an amazing one. She did right here Brooklyn, its making the announcement of that investigation.

BERMAN: All right. We'll move on. 35 minutes after the hour. Sex between prisoners and guards how ramping is it and is enough being done to stop it? A former prison warden joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: We're just minutes away from the search for the two New York prison escapees. We could get new information shortly. Officials released these photos, these are new photos they released of Richard Matt and David Sweat, they called progression photos. They think this is what the men might look like now after more than 10 days on the run.

All this source would direct knowledge of the investigation tells CNN that alleged accomplice, Joyce Mitchell, the prison worker told her husband about the inmates plan and the plot to kill him.

BOLDUAN: But the husband's attorney, the husband's lawyer says, that he knew nothing. Officials also tell that CNN that Mitchell had sexual relationships with both prisoners over a period of time. Let's bring in Charles Felton now. He is a former prison warden. He has run correctional facilities in Florida, Illinois and Georgia.

[11:40:00] Mr. Felton, thank you so much for joining us. The relationships between Joyce Mitchell and these two men are really fascinating and troubling. It sounds like it went on for a very long time. From your experience in running jails, how does this happen? How does this go on?

CHARLES FELTON, FORMER PRISON WARDEN: We have to keep in mind that, prisoners are the for committing horrible crimes but they do live normal lives after. And they are very personal area intelligent and it's quite easy for them to gain the confidence of prison employees.

That is not to say that this is a widespread kind of a practice because for the most part, people run in jails, administrators, correctional officers and support staff do a remarkable job of upholding their end of the public safety arena. So this is definitely what I would consider to be a very unusual

type of situation of the incident.

BERMAN: That's not what we're hearing though. Because we've been talking to a lot of convicts who have been release that Michael Alig is here before and we have spoken to other people, who say, you know, it goes on and everyone knows it goes. is there certain level of acceptance, do you think?

FELTON: Yes. There's a certain level of acceptance. But the question becomes, what can you actually do about it to prevent this? That we have a situation were in most situations you have one or two officers who are actually responsible for monitoring as to a number of a hundred prisoner and a hundred inmate. But by the same token, you have 100 inmates who are constantly observing these two officers.

So you just about imagine in many situations who would have the upper hand. And that would - I would say the inmate - so the actual numbers of incidents that occur are minimal compared to the magnitude of the problem. America is consistent of 5 percent of the world's population. But we can find 25 percent of the world's population. And so that should give some indication of how extensive the task is for these officers to try to monitor and maintain these prisoners on a continuing basis.

BOLDUAN: That's a fascinating perspective. Now, these men were both in kind of a privileged area. It was called an honor block. I'm wondering if and that's a big if at this point. If these men are caught what is their life going to be like when they get drawn back in prison.

BERMAN: In an honor block.

FELTON: It will not, it will not change substantially, they will probably be restricted for a continued period of time. But for the most part, they will simply be confined, isolated. And the situation that occurred here is that the lady perhaps some kind of a medical issue.

In my opinion I think she decided to cease and desist. But she's probably very much better off because I don't think she would have survived the situation that she carried, carried out this attempt, Kate. And in terms of being able to do this again is highly doubtful. But you have look at the fact that these individuals locked up can be very personable. They watch people. They know how to did to them and they don't start with give me a gun so I can escape.

They start with something minimal, like the one in - like in one eats apple pie or some medication or something like that. And they - the staff accommodates them they did at least a better and bigger things for them. So it's really a tough situation. But as I indicated, staff really do a remarkable job of maintaining America's jail prisons which are in fact, one of the most volatile institutions in our society.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely, Charles Felton, thank you very much for joining us. For showing just remind our viewers as we've been showing the progression photos. This new coming out For New York State Police of what these two men will look like a now as we enter their 12th day on the run. We want to make sure the viewers would keep those pictures and those faces in their minds.

Charles Felton, thank you so much.

Coming up for us, he thought about killing people three to four times a day but the psychiatrist who treated the Colorado theater shooter James Holmes says there was nothing that she could do about it. Why?

Probably the most anticipated witness in the Holmes trial so far takes the stand.

BERMAN: When a fatal tiger attack in a crowded city, dozens of dangerous animals are still on the loose after a disaster at a zoo. We'll have an update on the race to capture these animals.

[11:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: Just moments ago another juror in the trial of the theater shooting suspect James Holmes he was dismissed. This is the fifth juror to be dismissed from this murder trial. Meanwhile, psychiatrist for Holmes testified that he thought about killing people three to four times, a day before he went on that deadly rampage. Remember, he did kill 12 people that day and injure many more.

Dr. Lynn Fenton told the jury that she couldn't place Holmes under a psychiatric hold because he never disclosed a specific plots or targets in their conversations.

BERMAN: Fenton testified that Holmes' obsession with killing was only getting worse as his treatment progressed and just hours before the attack Holmes mailed Fenton a notebook with elaborate sketches of that theater in Colorado and details of his plan.

CNN's Legal Analyst Phil Holloway, joins us now. Philip, there's a lot of discussion about what psychiatrists can and can't do before a crime is perhaps committed. I'm curious about that in any way relevant to what this jury is hearing. Maybe this jury's isn't deciding that. This jury is listening to this testimony and trying to decide whether James Holmes is sane or not.

PHILIP HOLLOWAY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's exactly correct. This is a medical legal determination that they have to decide. The burden is on the state to prove that he was sane. All he has to do as a defendant is to raise the issue. They have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was, in sane. And from this witness yesterday I think they got some very good information that just may help them carry that burden.

[11:50:00] For example, she testified that he hid from her - his specific plans. Why would someone hide their plans? It suggests that they knew that what they were doing was wrong. And that of course, is the legal test for insanity is whether or not he knew right from wrong or whether or not he was unable based on his psychiatric condition to form any kind of criminal intense.

So I think that her testimony yesterday definitely helped the prosecution insanity defenses are rarely used and when they are used they rarely succeed. So I think advantages has to be with the state at this point.

BOLDUAN: It's interesting, because Colorado is a unique - one of unique states where the burden proof in this situation is on the prosecution to prove that he was sane, rather than on the defense to prove that he would insane at the time of the crime.

During his testimony she talked about kind of the progression of his illness or what she saw. That he had obviously have had suicidal thoughts and she diagnosed him with social anxiety, with obsessive compulsive disorder, she said then later involved, she thinks his further problems of paranoia and psychosis. We're kind of reading through all of that.

Definitely to believe that defensible plot to work further with though, yes?

HOLLOWAY: Well, that's true. She did gave something to both sides. She gives them to the prosecution and she game something to defense. Really all they have to work with is the insanity defense and before they can get to the question of whether or not he was legally insane they have to establish that he had some, type of mental disorder, a mental disease, defect in his mind however you want to characterize it.

So to that extent she did give some valuable information on cross examination to the defense counsel. However, on balance, balance, the key pieces of this the nuggets if you will that when the closing arguments come around I guarantee that the state is pointing to the fact that James Holmes hid from his treating doctor the fact that, he had specific plan. Why would you hide something unless you knew what you're about to do was wrong.

BERMAN: Philip tough, there are questions in the society now about what a psychiatrist should and shouldn't disclose prior to a possible crime that is committed. In your experience, as a prosecutor, do you think the jury sits there and goes, "Well, wait a second, this psychiatrist that were listening to in person, this person could have stopped this killer, this person should have stopped this killer in anyway does that impact their guilt or innocence?

HOLLOWAY: Only time will tell because you never can tell what a jury what is like what's going through their mind at any point in the trial. The reason that doctors in general and specifically psychiatrists are not able to disclose things that are told to them by their patient is just like the attorney client privilege. Because when people have psychiatric disorders, especially ones that are severe as what he clearly had, you want that person to seek treatment.

And so they will be unwilling perhaps to seek treatment if their believe that their doctor can go and reveal anything that's been told. So as a matter of public the policy the law builds in this patient/doctor confidentiality that will apply and only until the doctor has some specific actionable knowledge that she can call the police and say, hey, I've got this client that I believe is about to do something imminently and that they're going to hurt somebody. Or is going to kill somebody.

Only under those circumstances can they ethically disclose any communications that are made.

BERMAN: Philip Holloway, thank you very much for being with us. Appreciate it.

HOLLOWAY: Thank you very much.

BERMAN: All right. There was a fatal tiger attack in a key world capital. A tiger that had escaped from the zoo with hundreds of other wild animals and so many of those other animals are still on the loose. What's the situation on the ground?

BOLDUAN: Plus, any minute now, we're going to get an update on the massive manhunt for two escaped killers. We're getting the live news conference the district attorney and the New York State police ahead. Where do they focus the search now? 12 days in.

[11:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BOLDUAN: New this morning. Police in the Georgia capital to believe they say they shot a tiger after it had killed a man.

BERMAN: Yes. This tiger, was one of hundreds of animals to break out of the zoo there after severe flooding just to destroy the place. There are still so many animals still on the loose and officials are warning there are still other tiger that is still missing.

CNN Paula Newton has all the details, Paul.

PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. John, there are still confusion as to how many animal are on the loose and what is out there that is the problem. Zoo officials have said that all those wild animals the predators at least had been accounted for, apparently not. This poor man, 43 years old had entered a ware house type building along with co-workers and, of course, the tiger lunged at him. He had been hiding in there, taking shelter and attacked him - a predator attacked him immediately in his neck and he died on the way to hospital.

Another man who was with him was wounded. You know, more dramatic still, right now on the streets of Tbilisi there are police with rifles at the ready still looking for this other tiger. We have unconfirmed reports as to whether or not they have found the tiger. Again, this is some of the horrific days after the flooding hit the capital of Georgia.

BOLDUAN: It really is amazing, Paula. I mean, what is the situation like for folks in Tbilisi. They said they thought they had all the predators. They had down the predators but clearly not. What's the situation like for there?

NEWTON: Well, it just underscores the tragedy of all this flooding. The flash flooding was bad enough, 20 killed, many people still missing. They were trying to getting up their city Kate and they were getting up there hanging in parks, trying to get their homes back together.

This poor man, along with his co-workers, was going on a building that they have been told, look, the city is safe, go out there, let's start rebuilding. Just didn't happen. And now, you have the zoo saying, look OK, there's only the one tiger, that's it, just one tiger. But I mean, obviously when you're in Tbilisi, many people not just saying, look, we're staying indoors and we will stay here until they are sure that these animals are accounted for.

BOLDUAN: That's absolutely, right. Paula, thank so much those pictures are really amazing to see those animals on the loose.

BERMAN: That is such a tragedy.

BOLDUAN: All right. Thank you all for joining us At this Hour.

BERMAN: "Legal View" with Ashleigh Banfield starts right now.