Return to Transcripts main page

ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

Scene of Capsized Cruise Ship on Yangtze River; American Mauled by Lion; Interview with Buzz Bissinger; Hillary Clinton's Poll Numbers Going Down. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired June 2, 2015 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[20:00:08] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.

We have breaking news tonight on two fronts. We've just learned about a potential major development in the Washington quadruple murder case, more forensic evidence tying the suspect not just to the scene but to the victims as well.

Pam Brown is working her sources. She is going to joins in a moment.

But first the Boston police shooting killing of a man who authorities say have been radicalized online by ISIS. They say he was armed and may be following the groups call and followers to murder members of law enforcement. Now the suspect had been under 24 hour surveillance and so were others.

Our Deborah Feyerick has late details on how and why police opened fire when investigators were learning about what the man they killed. So what do we know?

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we do know that investigators right now are searching his home, searching his computers because they do believe that he was radicalized online. He was accessing a social media, ISIS propaganda and propaganda of other extremist groups. Not clear whether in fact ISIS contacted him directly. But we can tell you is that he was making threats to police officers on a level of alarm was sufficient that authorities decided that they were going to question him today.

So they moved in. He was standing at a CVS and they approached him. The FBI chief says there was no arrest warrant. There was no intension to even arrest him. And they very surprised by his response, by his reaction when he took out that knife and then came at both an FBI agent and a police officer. They repeatedly ordered him to drop the knife. He refused to do that. And when they felt they were in danger that is when they opened fire.

And so, all of this is under investigation right now. But it is just unclear why he also had the knife and it was a pretty sizable knife.

COOPER: Was this inside the CVS? Because it looks like the knife is - looks like it was on the outside.

FEYERICK: It was in a parking lot. It was on a parking lot in the CVS, yes.

COOPER: OK. So it is very possible there could be video of this.

FEYERICK: And not only is there video, it is going to be shown tomorrow to different groups because there is some question because the brother's accounts.

COOPER: But the family is saying this is not what happened.

FEYERICK: Well, that is exactly right. And the brother who actually identified Usama Rahim as the man who is wielding the knife and the man who shot, he said that in fact his brother was waiting for a bus, he was waiting to go to work and apparently he was confronted by members of the joint terrorism task force, they -- he was confronted, he actually was able to place a phone call to his father because in his brother's words he wanted a witness to listen. The father heard the shots, the imam, which is the brother, is saying that his -- that (INAUDIBLE) was shot three times in the back and authorities are saying that's not what happened, that in fact he was the aggressor, he had the knife and that he was shot twice once in the abdomen and once in the torso. So they are looking at this closely.

COOPER: Right. And it certainly seems that there would be enough forensic evidence, so there is video with their autopsy results to kind of validate one story or another.

FEYERICK: Well, that is exactly right. And this is exactly the FBI has been saying. They have been very worried that the threat here in the United States, domestically is going to increase exponentially for the very fact that anyone that can go online can be radicalized and that is the danger, that is the threat. That's why they are making sure that they are reaching out to the local police department and saying, you know, you guys are on the front lines. You guys are going to be see anything if anything happens first. And you know, in this case, it was a Boston police officer who opened fire first when he confronted the suspect.

COOPER: All right, Deb Feyerick, appreciate the update. Thanks very much.

FEYERICK: Of course.

COOPER: Now, the breaking news in the Washington murder, Savvas Savopoulos, his wife, Amy, their son Philip, and the housekeeper held captive and killed at their home in an upscale district neighborhood. DNA from the suspect Daron Wint found on the pizza crust in the house according to authorities.

Now, his former lawyer, you will recall, telling us last night that Mr. Wint cannot have done the crime because among many things, he does not like pizza, according to his family. True or now, whether or not that even matters, tonight, it seems that pizza crust is not the only evidence authorities they have to go on.

Pamela Brown joins us now with what precisely was found and how it might connect the suspect with his alleged victim. So what is the latest, Pamela?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, we are learning that traces of blood from at least one of the murder victims in that quadruple homicide were found on the shoe that Daron Wint was wearing when he was arrested a couple of weeks ago.

This is according to two law enforcement officials I spoke with and my colleague Evan Perez as well. So the blood was matched to the victim following forensic analysis conducted after he was arrest. We are seeing video of the arrest right there. So after that, they immediately took everything he had on him, conducted this forensic analysis and they allegedly found blood on of one of the victims on the shoe he was wearing -- Anderson.

COOPER: Is it clear which of the victims' blood was found?

BROWN: We don't know at this point. We don't know which of the four victims. As you mentioned, there was the couple, Amy and Savvas Sovapoulos, their son, Philip and the housekeeper. We don't know which victim. We know that Daron Wint is charged right now with first-degree murder for Savvas Savopoulos but until that has nothing to do what the actual - the blood that was found on his shoe. And that there could be more charges coming against Daron Wint.

And again, Anderson, authorities do not believe that he acted alone. This is still a very active investigation.

[20:05:09] COOPER: Yes. And as you said, authorities do say they believe more charges will be brought.

Pam Brown, appreciate it.

More now on the forensics, as well as the search for additional suspects and everything else that goes into the case in getting conviction. Joining us is the CNN law enforcement analyst, former FBI assistant director, Tom Fuentes.

Tom, thanks very much for being with us. A, how reliable is something like blood evidence or alleged blood evidence on a shoe?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Anderson, that is completely reliable and it has been something that has been analyzed and used for comparison purposes, evidentiary purposes for decades. You know, I think that the public and this attorney might, if he ends up representing Wint, be able to confuse enough on saliva in a pizza crust, and how could they get DNA from that. And you know, basically cloud that issue. But blood spotter evidence on clothing of a person being charged with a crime, that is pretty hard to argue. And he would have a very difficult time twisting that evidence and confusing a jury because again blood spatter evidence has been, for decades, has been, you know, usable.

COOPER: I got to say, I mean, I have interview this Wint's onetime attorney, whether or not the family is actually going to hire this guy or not, last night. And I mean, it is kind of compounding - I mean, basically, he said that he met with Wint over the weekend. And there is no why Wint could have done this because he comes from a large family and that he, himself, has a child and there is no way he would have harmed a child. And that basically the idea that you are coming from a large family, you used to taking care of each other. You therefore wouldn't be a murderer. And that his family says he doesn't even like pizza. All of those just seemed like ridiculous logic - I mean, the idea that people from large families don't commit murder or people with children don't commit murder, I mean, that is just, ridiculous.

FUENTES: No, it is ridiculous, you know. He's making these arguments. You know, the argument that he doesn't like pizza, and my argument to that was now what are you going to say, he doesn't like shoes either, it couldn't be possibly his be his shoes that he was wearing when he was arrested. So I think that just because this attorney makes a number of goofy comments, we shouldn't given him so much ability to be seen as a credible person.

COOPER: Yes. And again, you know, obviously, this man is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. And we'll see if other charges are brought, as Pam says, will likely happen.

Tom, appreciate you being on.

FUENTES: Thank you.

COOPER: And a quick reminder. Make sure you set your DVR. You can watch 360 whenever you want.

Coming up just ahead, racing to find hundreds of people trapped in a capsized cruise ship. We have a correspondent on the scene as the around the clock rescue and recovery mission is playing out right now.

Plus, breaking news on a deadly lion attack in South Africa who just got the first encounter the attack when the person actually driving the vehicle.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:11:35] COOPER: We have breaking news tonight about the deadly lion attack in South Africa. We've just gotten the first, firsthand account of what exactly happened. Now, the attack, we know, occurred at a wildlife center where lions roam free and tourists observe them from cars and other vehicles, from their own vehicles. Now, visitors are warned to keep their windows closed at all times. The victim, a 22-year-old American whose identity hasn't been releases, was mauled by lion that lunged through an open window of her vehicle. And tonight, as I mentioned, the tour company she hired has just released to us an account of the attack.

Gary Tuchman joins me now. What are they saying?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I understand, as you mentioned, we are getting the firsthand account about what happened in that car from someone who is there, the driver in fact.

There were two people in the vehicle, one of them was the 22-year-old American woman who died. The other was the owner of the tour company who would organize the victim's death (ph) now lying in park outside of Johannesburg. That owner is Pierre Potheater (ph) who is the owner of Calla Bash Tours and was driving the vehicle at the time of the incident.

According to the spokesperson for the company who happens to be the wife of Mr. Potheater (ph), her husband entered the lion enclosure with the windows up and not down. Now, the account makes a particular note of that because the statement says there have been reports the window were down when entering the enclosure. But according to this account, they were not, they were closed.

COOPER: Well, if the windows were up, then, obviously, that raising the question of how the lion get into the vehicle.

TUCHMAN: Well, it does raise that question. When the two people pulled up to view a pride of lions, the vehicle stops. At that point, Mr.Potheater (ph) says the American tourist rolled down her window to take pictures. It was then a lion attacked through the open window.

Mr. Potheater (ph) then says he fended off the lion injuring his arm in the process, a serious injury. And according to the account, he saw his passenger bleeding profusely from the neck as the lion retreated.

Mrs. Potheater (ph) says her husband not only hurt his arm, but also, Anderson, a heart attack.

COOPER: So at that point, I mean, I guess they are both wounded, was the driver able to help her at all. What happened?

TUCHMAN: Well, according to the account, he tried his best to stop her bleeding with constant pressure to her neck and called for help. Mr. Potheater (ph) told his wife it felt like a long time for the ambulance to arrive. However, officials at the lion park say the ambulance did arrive at timely fashion. This account goes on to say the woman passed away a short time after the ambulance arrive, Anderson. The tour company says it is withholding her identity at the request of her family.

COOPER: All right, Gary, appreciate the new details.

Now, a 360 exclusive, this isn't actually the first time a tourist has been attacked at this very wildlife center. Two years ago, a lion attacked Brett Tucker's family at the same park. He joins me for an exclusive interview.

Brett, can you tell us what happened when your car was attacked at this park because I understand your father had the window open just enough to take a picture.

BRETT TUCKER, SURVIVED ATTACK AT LION PARK: I dropped the window just enough so that I could take a photograph through the top. And, you know, I take a photograph and then my dad was actually looking for it and he saw a bird and he had his binoculars on him looking for the bird and the next minute, the car, there was a massive crash and the next minute, it was lion paw that got his hand at the top of the window. And the next minute, the window collapsed and then the lioness came into the car. My dad luckily was able to mover my daughter away.

COOPER: What do you in a case like that? I mean, there is a lion, not only the paw, but the lion itself was getting into the car?

[20:15:58] TUCKER: Yes, sir. I mean, it was crazy. I mean, it probably feels like it is forever but it was probably 15 seconds I suppose. And my dad amazingly got my daughter out of the way and was holding her to one side and the lion bit him on the shoulder and was able to get its both paws into the car and around his neck.

COOPER: My God.

TUCKER: And then the next was a bit crazy. I sort of leaned across and I was punching the lion in the nose. And I'm not a big guy, suddenly, it looked at me with much amusement, in fact. And then I sort of -- we sort of realized that we're in a mess of trouble here. So I went back and I hit the gear leaver down and lucky it was an automatic so - and then went straight into drive and that sort of moved the car forward about a half a meter I suppose. And with that half a meter moving forward, I think the lion lost its footing and actually released my dad and sort of fell out the window. And I then hit the accelerator and we drove off and the lion just sort of walked back to where it came from like nothing happened.

COOPER: That is incredible. Were you yelling, was your daughter screaming at this point?

TUCKER: Yes. Yes. It is insane. My daughter had a small nick on her shoulder from where the lion pawed -- it didn't touch her. It was amazing. She had a small mark on her leg from when the lion was in the car. She was obviously going crazy. And my dad was unbelievable. He literally just - he held paws. The lion was biting him on the shoulder and he just held my daughter out of the way. But luckily for him, you know, that were yet some bite marks and they had quite a few paw marks and they stitched him up across the board. I mean, I actually made a decision that I was going to take my daughter back to the lion park just because I didn't really want her to have that experience because it is not the way lion's behave. I must stress that we took 100 percent responsibility for our window being open. So at most stage that we say that it was the lion parks issue because it clearly states that you shouldn't open your window. And I think the key thing for me was that the window was slightly ajar which is not normal for a lion to attack like that.

So when we went back to the lion park, we actually went - when we went through the camp again, I was blown away, with five other tourist vehicles driving around with their windows wide open and I thought, my first reaction to my dad was this is only a matter of time until something happened again.

COOPER: So while you are taking responsibility for the incident where you had your window partially down, you are saying you hope - you believe the park could do more to let other people know that they shouldn't have their windows down, whether it is - I mean, should there be more signage, should they be talking directly to people?

TUCKER: I don't think -- my letter to them was quite simple. I said, guys, with all respect, you cannot allow self-drive in a park when the lions are as agitated, or whatever they are, as they are because the reality for me is that they have got these vehicles there that are completely caged.

COOPER: The employees are driving around in caged vehicles.

TUCKER: Correct. So if you go to a wildlife park in South Africa, you are not in cage. And that is the reason there is only cage is because the animals won't react and they won't jump into the vehicle. Where if the owner of the lion park has got cages in his vehicles, he's obviously, done it for a specific reason. So - which is I understand and I understand why the library park is there. It is an amazing place to take any tourist. In fact any person who doesn't have an opportunity to go, it is a great place to go and understand and learn about the lions.

But you can't put -- for me, the saddest thing about this whole thing is you can't put the consumer at risk when you know there is a potential for that to happen. And yes, it is well signed and posted and yes they do give you information before you go in about closing your window, but like for me, it is just, the risk is too high. And when you have the vehicles readily available and they got a couple there, why not just say, guys, no self-drive. You have to get into a vehicle with us and we'll do the trip for you.

COOPER: Well, Brett, I appreciate, a, you are not only taking your responsibility at your own actions but also for informing the park and giving them advice and unfortunately they didn't follow up on it. And we'll see if anything now changes with this most recent accident. And I appreciate you speaking out tonight. Thank you.

TUCKER: Pleasure.

COOPER: There is a lot more happening tonight, some of it happening as we speak. We'll take you to the scene of the Yangtze River where a cruise ship capsized and time is running out for any of the hundreds still trapped on board who may have survived.

Plus, there is new video of Caitlyn Jenner's photo shoot from "Vanity Fair." New details about her transition, I'll talk to Buzz Bissinger who wrote the cover story after spending hundreds of hours with Jenner sharing her journey.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:23:32] COOPER: Breaking news, a world away and minutes could mean life or death for hundreds of people. They are trapped right now inside of this ship on the China's Yangtze River. Now, only a small number of bodies have been recovered so far and leaving the faith of more than 400 passengers and crew right now unknown. And for the lucky ones, we don't know how many, who found air pockets. Their fate is in the hands of all the people who have been racing the clock to try to find them. Our David McKenzie is there for us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This 65-year-old woman is lucky to be alive. Emergency responders placed an oxygen tube in her nose and rush her to safety. She spent an entire night trapped in an air pocket in the capsized crew ship until divers rescued her.

She is one of more than a dozen so far to have survived. This emergency worker taps the ship's bottom hoping for a response from passengers inside and appears to hear signs of life. Welders use blowtorches attempting to cut the hull open. And in another array of hope during operations on Tuesday here, this 21-year-old man is rescued and rushed to the hospital. He too survived in an air pocket.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The bottom of the ship had a layer air cushion which was two meters thick.

This recue diver says the victim was sitting on the water pipe in the upside down ship bottom.

While finding anyone alive lifts spirits of those here on site, there were nearly 460 on board when the ship capsized, the majority of then senior citizens, although the youngest passenger was just three.

Authorities are scrambling to rescue many more and also investigate exactly what happened to the ill-fated eastern star cruise ship. It was heading up the Yangtze River on a multiday cruise when it was hit with what authority say a violent storm, perhaps a tornado.

You are watching what is believed to be the last images of the ship before the tragedy, just about 30 minutes before it capsized, lightning and rain streaking across the rain. This video shot from a surveillance camera of a passing ship, according to state media.

The China weather center later confirmed a tornado with winds up to 64 miles per hour did in fact hit the ship on Monday night.

As dawn breaks on a second day of searching, scorches of soldiers are moving on the scene and they put a cordon here. We are not allowed to go further than this military checkpoint. They have had a huge amount of help here to try to find survivors. But as the time ticks by it is becoming extremely unlikely that more will be pulled out.

While hundreds of passengers and crew are still missing and feared dead both the ship's captain and the chief engineer somehow made it out of the ship alive. They have been taken into custody for questioning.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[20:26:28] COOPER: And David McKenzie joins us now.

Now, David, I understand they just expanded the search area. MCKENZIE: That is right, 90 miles downriver. That is an

extraordinary large search area for a sinking ship of this kind, I understand. And can I tell you the weather. It is just playing a huge part in the pampering of the research area. It has been pouring with rain on and off for hours. And more than 24 hours after the ship sank with what appeared to be a freak weather incident that happened so quickly that people were trapped as water was pouring into their cabins. The prospect of finding anyone is very slim. But we have been seeing a steady extreme of rescuers coming in and out. And that they still hope maybe someone is in there in the air pockets that they can pull out -- Anderson.

COOPER: I mean, do we know -- have they heard any banging or anything? Because I mean, they are obviously - I mean, they are on part of the ship itself, correct?

MCKENZIE: Well yesterday late into the day they pulled a 21-year-old man who had been banging, showing signs of life. But, you know, in the last several hours we haven't heard any positive news, I must tell you. And that is what they've been doing, walking along the hull, tapping the hull with these tiny hammers to see if anyone turn tap back outshout back. That's an extraordinary the count of rudimentary technology they are using. And then going in there with welders and divers and this is a murky river so it is dangerous work to try to get people out and with the expanded search area tells me they are less confident they can find people immediately in the vicinity of that vessel.

COOPER: David McKenzie, we appreciate the update. We will continue to follow that.

Let's get to some other stories we are following tonight.

Tonight, Amara Walker has AC360 news and business bulletin -- Amara.

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the most powerful man in world soccer is stepping down from his post. FIFA president, Sepp Blatter, announced he will resign once a successor is elected, this comes just days after he was re-elected to a fifth term and less than a week after the sports' governing body was targeted in a corruption investigation.

The Senate approved a bill reforming national security agency surveillance programs. The USA freedom act ends and the agency's the bulk collection of millions of Americans phone records. The bill now goes to the president for his expected signature.

Doctors say secretary of state John Kerry is in good condition after surgery to repair his broken leg from a cycling accident. The lead surgeon expects Kerry to be up and walking tomorrow.

And an incredibly story of survival in New York City. We want to warn you the video is tough to catch but keep in mind the little boy who was hit by an out of control car is doing just fine. Now, this was Monday when the car went on to a sidewalk and took down a tree and slammed into a 3-year-old boy. Of course everyone feared the worse. But today, less than 24 hours later, believe it or not, Oscar Chen was back at the same location, that is him, running around and smiling for the cameras. Incredible stuff.

COOPER: So lucky. Incredible. Amara, thank you very much.

Up next, new details on Caitlyn Jenner's transition. I'll talk to the journalist who wrote the "Vanity Fair" cover story and spent hours with her.

Also, talents turning the dog found to raise money. Raising a lot of questions about the tactic they use.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:33:55]

COOPER: New insight tonight on Caitlyn Jenner's transition from Bruce Jenner. Here is more behind the scenes video of the "Vanity Fair" photo shoot. A look at the highly anticipated debut of the former Olympic gold medalist, who transitioned into being a woman. The "Vanity Fair" cover says it all. Call me Caitlyn. Inside, there's 22 pages of photos and details about her life and her true self, she says. The cover story was months in the making and written by the magazine's contributing editor, Buzz Bissinger, who spent an extraordinary amount of time with Caitlyn Jenner and joins us tonight.

You spent hundreds of hours with Bruce Jenner, a lot of time with Caitlyn. Are they different? Do they seem different? Obviously, in terms of appearance, obviously.

BUZZ BISSINGER, VANITY FAIR CONTRIBUTING EDITOR: They are very different in appearance, obviously. They do seem different. And you know, it is a work in progress, in a sense of we're just getting to know Caitlyn. Caitlyn is just getting to know herself. But the difference I see is, first of all, Caitlyn is having more fun in life. Bruce did not have much fun in life. The last 10 or 15 years, I think he had no fun in life. Was very lonely and alone and not really motivated in the shadows of the Kardashian family.

[20:35:00]

Caitlyn seems very emotionally connected, reaching out to the so- called Jenner kids more than ever before. Happy, alive and learning to listen and learning about empathy, which were all characteristics frankly that Bruce never came near.

COOPER: That is what was so interesting about your article. One of the many interesting things about it is, you know, he wasn't a very good dad as Bruce Jenner to his kids.

BISSINGER: He wasn't. He was not a very good dad to the Jenner kids, the first four kids from his two marriages. And I have to tell you, they are exceptional kids. They are as different from the Kardashians as you can be. Not to knock the Kardashians. They are very, very grounded. They are grounded in life. And Bruce, after he married Kris Jenner, this is on his shoulders. Basically abandoned them as you're entering adolescence. And it is hard, it is particularly hard when you're a boy. You know, we all love our fathers, but this is a father who was a national hero, who won the Olympics, and in the story Bruce Jenner says at one point, I wish I hadn't won the Olympics because then I wouldn't idolize him. And you can see the looks on their faces, this really scarred them, and this really, really hurt. You know, no birthdays, no graduations, never calling. The sense that you don't matter any more, I'm with the Kardashian kids whom he genuinely loves and his two youngest daughters, and that's it, you guys are gone.

COOPER: Do you think, oftentimes great achievement comes from a personal loss or a sense of -- I don't know -- inferiority or something, it comes from pain. Do you think his incredible accomplishments as an Olympian were in fact rooted in his -- in Bruce Jenner's feelings of I am a woman? I am meant to be a woman?

BISSINGER: Yes, I think he became a really good athlete and he looked for diversions in life. He said, what can I do in which I don't have to think about this, I don't have to deal with myself, and I want to prove my masculinity, because that is a big deal in our society, and he said what better diversion is there than the decathlon.

COOPER: The first time that you saw Caitlyn Jenner? What went through your mind?

BISSINGER: I saw Caitlin Jenner the first time was after March 15, March 15 is when she had very -- not drastic, but ten hours of plastic surgery, and then literally that day became Caitlyn.

Look, the first time I saw her, you are uncomfortable, because you don't know what to say, you don't want to offend. I'm used to Bruce. The voice is still Bruce.

COOPER: You even tripped up in terms of what pronoun to use.

BISSINGER: Totally, still do.

COOPER: And you write that Caitlyn actually still --

BISSINGER: We're all adjusting. Caitlyn says, you bet this is a weird story. It is weird, because we have to get our arms around this, which is hard. I don't know a lot of transgender men or women. None of us do yet. We're learning a lot about them, which is great. And he says, let's face it. It is Bruce Jenner. America's god. He was a god in 1976.

I'm 60 years old, I remember vividly those Olympics because the United States got its clock cleaned by the Soviet Union and East Germany. We won no medals in track, one individual medal. Bruce saved us, because sports is powerful. It is politics.

COOPER: One of the things you wrote in your article, which I did not realize and I think a lot of people maybe were surprised, you said about yourself, you said I've been a cross dresser with a big-time fetish for women's leather and an open critic of the often arbitrary delineation between men's and women's clothing. Did you talk to Caitlyn about that, and do you think that helped in sort of paving the way to get this access? The access you got is incredible.

BISSINGER: The access was incredible. And you know, it was initiated by Grady Carter (ph) about a year ago, he suggested let's talk to him. Bruce was still Bruce. We think this is a major story. So the lines of communication were open, and I was selected because of a sports connection, I wrote "Friday Night Lights," and there was a sports connection, but also part of it was -- and I wrote a lengthy story for "GQ" about I like women's clothing, I do cross dress, I know what it is like to be different and how a lot of people will ridicule you, as I was ridiculed, and tolerance is difficult. So that gave us a common bond, and for me it was I know to some degree what you are going through and I know to some degree how hard it is to be different than people's expectations.

COOPER: Even though I do want to point out, cross dressing is obviously very different than transgender.

BISSINGER: Very different. And I don't want to presume that I'm in your footsteps.

COOPER: No. But I think I know what it is like on some level to be made fun of, to be different, and I get that.

The other thing, the secrecy surrounding the way you wrote this article was intense. I haven't heard of procedures like this short of like, you know, NSA related stories.

BISSINGER: It was like the dark ages of journalism.

COOPER: How did you do it?

BISSINGER: A lot of we used the phone, it was off the grid, making corrections, were arduous.

[20:40:00]

COOPER: You did it on a computer that was not connected to the Internet, is that it?

BISSINGER: It wasn't connected to the "Vanity Fair" system. And everything would be by phone. We would literally be writing out by hand, every correction was by phone. It took endless amounts of time.

COOPER: Because you were afraid some -- because of the circus which surrounds him in terms of -- Caitlyn and formerly Bruce Jenner in terms of paparazzi and people following.

BISSINGER: And a leak. Look, those pictures are incredible. And we didn't want them out before we wanted the piece out. And neither did Caitlyn. Caitlyn said, I will not let a paparazzi make money off of me. This is a big deal. This is a picture heard around the world. I will not let a paparazzi make money off of me, so if I have to stay in my house for two months, that is what I will do, and that's basically what she's done.

COOPER: And you talked to her subsequently, after the photo came out. What was her response?

BISSINGER: Overwhelmed.

COOPER: Overwhelmed? Her Twitter handle has now exploded.

BISSINGER: Overwhelmed, and I think it has had a great impact, because I think she realizes I do have a responsibility, I have a responsibility to the transgender community, I have a responsibility to urge tolerance, and I think without the reaction, both this and Diane Sawyer interview, I think it would have been very, very different. She knows that she can help people if she wants, she can make a major, major difference. And has.

COOPER: And already has I think in a lot of ways. A fascinating article. Congratulations.

BISSINGER: Thank you. Great to be on.

COOPER: Buzz Bissinger from "Vanity Fair." A city that's accused of targeting pet owners and their dogs to generate cash. Now, if the owners can't pay the fines, their pets are killed. We're keeping them honest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:45:30]

COOPER: Tonight, keeping them honest report, sparked by what the Justice Department found in Ferguson, Missouri, police in course abusing their power to generate revenue for the city through tickets, fines and fees, mainly aimed at poor African-Americans. Now, since the Justice Department has released its report, we along with our colleagues at CNN Money, have been investigating other questionable, possibly illegal tactics other cities may be using to raise revenue. In Colorado Springs, we found what some are calling a blatant shakedown, not by the police, but by animal control officials. Here is Randi Kaye.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Their names are Jake and Lucy. Home is Colorado Springs with the McAdam family, who adopted both of them, but now both of these dogs, family pets, are staring down a possible death sentence, accused of killing a neighborhood cat.

Had your dogs ever harmed or killed an animal before?

CAITLIN MCADAM, PET OWNER: No.

KAYE: Have they ever been aggressive before?

MCADAM: No. They've never bit or harmed anything.

KAYE: But the Pikes Peak Regional Humane Society says it has no choice. The dogs are considered dangerous under Colorado law, so the district attorney has filed criminal misdemeanor charges against Caitlin McAdam and is threatening to euthanize the dogs. This is all because someone thinks they saw McAdam's dogs kill that cat back in January. Caitlin and her husband had no idea anything was wrong until animal control showed up at the house to seize the family's dogs. She says her dogs didn't kill the cat.

MCADAM: I thought we could just go to the Humane Society and prove that and get them back.

KAYE: She could not have been more wrong. Caitlin was later told there would have to be a probable cause hearing to determine if the county could hold her dogs. And there is more. Caitlin had just ten days to come up with $1,200 to cover the fees for her dogs' incarceration. No payment and the dogs would be euthanized within days.

The case of Jake and Lucy is hardly unique. In fact, an investigation by CNN money, which looked at 13 different cities throughout the country, found thousands of active warrants against pet owners. These warrants are for infractions that include a barking dog, a dog without a license, and an animal loose in the neighborhood.

And this may be about a lot more than pets. It may be about money. A lot of it. The fines and fees raise millions of dollars across the country for cash poor towns and cities. But Caitlin is convinced some animal control officials are targeting low-income families, those who can't afford to pay.

MCADAM: And the fact that I could be looking at jail time for something like this is just ridiculous. I just feel like if I were someone living in a gated community or something, that this wouldn't even be an issue, this wouldn't be happening.

KAYE: And as steep as the fines are, people like Caitlin McAdam say animal control knows they'll find a way to come up with the money to save their beloved animals.

Did you have that kind of money?

MCADAM: I found that kind of money. But no, I didn't have that kind of money. I had to come up with it.

KAYE: At the Pikes Peak Regional Humane Society in Colorado Springs, we asked for an explanation as to why Jake and Lucy, who have never been in trouble before, are facing a death sentence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no mistake. People are notified to get the money within ten days of the hearing.

KAYE: What if they can't get the money?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are always ways for people to be able to come up with the money to do this.

KAYE: Always -- that is not exactly the case. In Stockton, California, this Siberian husky mix was seized by animal control in 2013 after he had escaped from a backyard. His owner, Gerilynn Turkette, could not afford to pay the fine to get him out. It was about $180.

GERILYNN TURKETTE, DOG SEIZED BY ANIMAL CONTROL: I was crying. My husband was crying. I begged them, I begged them, please, you know, can we do anything?

KAYE: She said animal control refused to budge on the fine. Even after Gerilynn had told them she had lost her job. In the end, her family dog Chunk, just 4 years old, was euthanized over less than $200.

TURKETTE: It was like killing one of my kids, it really was. We were devastated.

KAYE: The animal services manager for the city, who was hired after Gerilynn's dog was put to death, told us it was a terrible mistake.

[20:50:00]

PHILIP ZIMMERMAN, ANIMAL SERVICES MANAGER, STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA: It appears it was more about the getting the $171 or the $183 being asked instead of getting the animal returned to the owner, which now that is what would occur.

KAYE: Back in Colorado, after nearly three months locked up, the dogs Lucy and Jake got a reprieve. They are home, temporarily. Only because the judge ruled they wouldn't be a danger to the community if they were under strict supervision. Now they have to wear muzzles when walking outside. They can't be walked together. And if outside off leash, they have to stay in the yard, where there is a six-foot fence. Meanwhile Caitlin's attorney says the D.A. is trying to cut a deal.

JULIET PICCONE, MCADAM'S ATTORNEY: The D.A.'s offer is plead guilty and we'll kill your dogs, and that is your offer.

KAYE: So she can avoid jail time if she agrees to have her dogs put down.

PICCONE: Yes.

KAYE: Otherwise she risks going to jail.

PICCONE: Up to six months, yes.

KAYE: To pay the attorney's fees and fines, Caitlin's family sold one of their cars, and used their tax refund to come up with the rest of the money. In all, she says she spent about $9,000 so far to save her dogs.

Is it worth it?

MCADAM: Yes. I can't let them just come into my house and kill my dogs.

KAYE: What do they mean to you and your family? MCADAM: Well, they are our family. Sorry. They are our family. I

mean, they are living animals. They have souls. They can't just come into our house and take them and kill them without even proving that they did anything.

KAYE: Citing an ongoing investigation, the district attorney's office wouldn't comment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Randi, there is no evidence -- I mean, somebody said they think they saw the dog kill the cat, I mean, apparently there is no actual evidence of this, and for the Humane Society lady to say everybody can just come up with this kind of money is just not true.

KAYE: Obviously, they can't. We cited that one example, but there are many, many others.

COOPER: Where the case of these two dogs stand now?

KAYE: Caitlin and her two dogs, Lucy and Jake, go back to court this week to finalize a settlement which, Anderson, curiously enough, the D.A. put this new settlement on the table once they got wind that we were out there interviewing Caitlin and her family and her attorney.

COOPER: Of course, right.

KAYE: So the new deal doesn't mean any jail time or the dogs being killed. Everybody will be fine, luckily, the new deal is that Caitlin will have to, which she plans to agree to, she'll plead guilty to one count of a dog at large and pay a $45 fine. But here is the kicker. $45 doesn't sound like a lot of money, she's now paid more than $11,000.

COOPER: They sold a car.

KAYE: They sold a car, their IRS tax refund. $11,000 in fees and fines to keep their dogs alive, and as you said, the county has zero proof that her dogs did anything wrong. She won't see a penny back.

COOPER: Randi, I appreciate the story. It's a good story. If you have any questions about this story, Randi is holding a Q&A on our Facebook page, facebook.com/ac360. You can start submitting questioning right now.

Up next, how honest and trustworthy do people think Hillary Clinton is? We got the answer, part of a new polling that could add up to some trouble for her when voters make their choice, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:57:10]

COOPER: A question. Can someone be elected president with the majority of people doubting his or her honesty? Now, if the numbers in the new CNN ORC poll don't improve, Hillary Clinton just might learn the answer firsthand. We should point out, polls are snapshots in time. However, they are also points along a trend line, and her line for now at least is going down. CNN chief national correspondent John King has a closer look tonight. So the new numbers, John, not great news for the Clinton campaign?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No. Anderson, they are not good numbers. Now, she is still the far and away prohibitive frontrunner for the Democratic nomination, but when you look deeper, there could be trouble come general election, and maybe some Democrat will try to take advantage of this. Does Hillary Clinton inspire confidence? Only 49 percent of Americans say that now, down from 58 percent in March of 2014. So back into politics, numbers are down. Let's keep going through these numbers. Look at this. Do you have a favorable opinion of Hillary Clinton? All voters, 46 percent. Now, again, look at how this has dropped. It was 59 percent in November of '14, and it is down nearly 10 points from a year ago if you want that perspective there. Again, her numbers are going down as she starts to campaign for the presidency.

Let's take a closer look here among independents, critical in the general election, only 41 percent of independents have a favorable opinion of the woman who is likely to be the Democratic nominee for president. You see again, it's down 10 points from a year ago, down from 56 percent in November. That is a problem.

Let's move up. Here is another big question. Is Hillary Clinton honest and trustworthy? Is your next president honest and trustworthy? That is a big question in an election. Only 42 percent of Americans say yes to that question when it comes to Hillary Clinton. Again, down a lot, from 56 percent in March of last year, down 50 percent from March of this year. And look at this, Anderson, among Democrats, even, a bit of a hit. 73 percent of Democrats say yes to that question. She is still very well liked among Democrats, but it is down from 88 percent in March of 2014.

This is a problem. This is where the super PAC friends of hers and maybe even the Clinton campaign are going to spend precious resources they would rather spend drawing contrast with Republicans, trying to improve Hillary Clinton's standing on these character issues, especially honest and trustworthy.

COOPER: What do her prospects look like against various Republican candidates?

KING: Again, you can look at this one, Anderson, either as glass half empty or glass half full. History says Republicans should win after a two-term Democratic president. That's why so many Democrats rallied around Hillary Clinton so early. They think she is the most formidable general election candidate. But look, she just barely beats Rand Paul at this point by one point in a national poll; Marco Rubio is only three points behind Hillary Clinton; Scott Walker, the Wisconsin governor, also loses to Clinton by three points right now. Jeb Bush loses by eight points, Ted Cruz by nine. So if you're the Clinton campaign, you can say, hey, we're just getting started, at least we're a little bit ahead. If you are Republicans, especially these top five right here, you are looking at her and saying, she's tough but she's beatable.

COOPER: Fascinating stuff. John, thanks very much. That does it for us tonight. "The Situation Room" special report, "ISIS: WHAT SHOULD THE U.S. DO NOW" starts now.