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Interview With Arizona Senator John McCain; Baltimore Protest; American Hostage Killed in U.S. Drone Strike. Aired 3-3:30p ET
Aired April 23, 2015 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:59:51] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome. I'm Jim Sciutto, live in Washington for CNN's special coverage of our breaking news. Two hostages, including an American, killed accidentally, along with two American al Qaeda operatives, by U.S. drone strikes.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Brooke Baldwin live here in Baltimore, where very soon protesters are expected to rally here in front of City Hall over the death of 25-year-old Freddie Gray, who died in police custody. You will see it all live here on CNN, but first, back to you, Jim, in D.C.,
SCIUTTO: Great to have Brooke there. Two major stories we're covering.
Back to D.C. here. He may not have ordered them, but the president is taking full responsibility for the drone strikes that killed two hostages held captive by al Qaeda, including an American, Warren Weinstein.
U.S. officials say they had -- quote -- "near certainty" there were no hostages at the terror compound they struck on the Afghanistan- Pakistan border. But, as it turns out, they were very wrong.
The president, while announcing a review of the strikes, admits that sometimes deadly mistakes happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is a cruel and bitter truth that, in the fog of war generally and our fight against terrorists specifically, mistakes, sometimes deadly mistakes, can occur.
As president and as commander in chief, I take full responsibility for all our counterterrorism operations, including the one that inadvertently took the lives of Warren and Giovanni.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: It was not just innocent hostages who were the inadvertent targets of this strike. It turns out the U.S. did not realize there was another American inside that compound, the terrorist Ahmed Farouq. And it does not end there. The White House also telling us that they inadvertently killed another American terrorist in a separate strike that same month in January that was not actually targeting him, that man a well-known mouthpiece for al Qaeda, the California-born Adam Gadahn.
We want to go now live to the White House, where Jim Acosta, our senior White House correspondent, joins us.
Jim, two hostages killed, the American, the Italian, two terrorists killed as well, none of them the targets of these strikes. Did the White House have any answers today, as you were listening to Josh Earnest there, as to how they got the intelligence so wrong?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Jim, I think what they're saying is that they got it so wrong, and they make no bones about it.
One thing that was mentioned during the White House briefing that just wrapped up in the last several minutes is that hours, hundreds of hours of surveillance, were gathered in the assessments that were being made by the counterterrorism officials who ordered this strike prior to that strike being carried out.
And so they felt like during that entire period of time, when they were looking and watching and seeing what these al Qaeda figures were doing at this suspected compound, they never saw any signs of these hostages who were being held there in the first strike that was carried out in January.
As you said -- and this was also backed up during the White House briefing that just wrapped up -- they were not intentionally going after Ahmed Farouq or Adam Gadahn during these strikes. They were targeting what they believed to be with a high degree of certainty to be al Qaeda compounds.
And it was during that first of those two strikes in January when those two hostages were killed, according to U.S. officials. Now, it was in the proceeding months that followed that they came to this realization, this terrible realization that a terrible mistake had been made.
They were starting to get indications back in February, Jim, that Warren Weinstein was killed in that airstrike along with the Italian aid worker. And then it was just in the last several days that the intelligence community along with national security officials at the White House were confident that Weinstein was killed.
It was at that point that Weinstein's family was contacted and given that notification. And that is why the president decided to order the disclosure of these operations, because essentially they had realized that something terrible had gone wrong. And they felt like -- the president felt like, according to White House officials, that the family deserved to know the truth and that the public deserved to know the truth. SCIUTTO: Thanks, Jim Acosta. We're learning now that it was just a
final crucial peace of intelligence this month that led the intelligence community to conclude with confidence that the American Warren Weinstein, the Italian Giovanni Lo Porto, were killed.
They had a picture before this month. But a final piece of the puzzle came through this month and they went -- they were able to make that conclusion.
I want to talk more about this man Adam Gadahn, who was also killed in a separate strike. He's seen here telling Muslims in the United States to start killing Americans. He was born in California to a Jewish family. He's also infamous for cutting up his U.S. passport.
CNN has been doing some digging on his background.
I want to bring in Nic Robertson, who is CNN's senior international correspondent.
Nic, really, a remarkable transformation, which I supposed we should become more used to, because we have seen this now with other groups such as ISIS, where Westerners, whether they be in the Europe or in the U.S., who convert to Islam or were brought up within the faith, but then choose the more extremist -- the extremist strand of this faith and become terrorists, his case particularly interesting because came from a Jewish background, Southern California, relatively middle- class upbringing.
[15:05:16]
How did he make this remarkable transition to be such a prominent member of al Qaeda?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he really kind of got in on the ground floor, if you will.
He converted to Islam in 1995 and then, three years later, goes to Pakistan. There, he's taken to al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan. So, this is three years before the 9/11 attacks. He's in Afghanistan when those attacks take place. He is, because he speaks English, a very good mouthpiece for al Qaeda.
And they seemed to sort of realize this in the coming years after that. They have gone on the run. They have left Afghanistan. They're hiding out in Pakistan. And Adam Gadahn starts popping up with these outrageous rants supporting the September 11 attacks. He then goes on and he tells Americans to go and get guns and attack people in the United States.
He's inciting violence in the United States, indicted for treason in 2006, FBI's most-wanted list in 2007. But he still continues to produce these videos, even praising Major Hasan Nidal, the Fort Hood shooter, if you will, who killed 13 servicemen there on a shooting rampage several years ago.
So this is a man who continued all this time to try and stoke violence against the United States. We have been looking back at his most recent videos. Perhaps the most recent one we can find is September last year. And, in that, he is again calling for attacks on the U.S. Embassy and other U.S. interests inside Pakistan as a way to topple the Pakistan government, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Well, on any other day, I think, as we said earlier, the killing of Adam Gadahn would be a major story, a major target, an American, but now, in this case, of course, overshadowed by the mistakes here, the American hostage is killed.
Thanks very much to Nic Robertson for joining us.
Much to discuss.
I want to bring in Reuel Gerecht -- Gerecht, rather -- he's a former CIA officer and a senior fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, also David Rohde. He's CNN global affairs investigative reporter with Reuters. But he himself was once held captive by the Taliban, escaped himself.
David, I wonder if I could begin with you. You lived those harrowing months as a captive yourself, fearing for your own life, hoping, I imagine, for rescue. Here, you have these hostages, the American and the Italian, who lived for years in those circumstances, and sadly it ends this way.
I wonder if you could just give your reaction to this, how big a mistake, how the families are feeling now.
DAVID ROHDE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: The families are heartbroken. And I thought the statement from the Weinsteins was articulate and beautiful and spot on.
You know, they said the ultimate responsibility lies with the kidnappers. I think that's true. And then there's a second responsibility. And I'll be honest. It's to Pakistan. The Pakistani military has allowed these militants to have this safe haven for years. I was held there. Bowe Bergdahl was held there for five years.
And the United States has provided Pakistan with $15 billion in military aid, yet the problem continues.
SCIUTTO: I mean, it is incredible. And I have been to Pakistan a number of times. And there have been questions. They're not spoken about publicly, but privately, about Pakistani officials, particularly within the intelligence community there, the ISI.
Reuel, I wonder if I could bring you in.
This is a -- let's not mince words here. This is a spectacular intelligence failure. You have killed an American and an Italian after surveilling this compound for hundreds of hours. And in addition to that, you killed two Americans who were with the terror group, but you didn't know they were there either. And there are a whole host of legal traps you're supposed to run through if an American airstrike or drone strike is going to kill an American.
How could such an intelligence failure happen in not one, but two drone strikes, and have so many -- so many -- so much -- I hate to use the term collateral damage, but that's what you have here.
REUEL MARC GERECHT, SENIOR FELLOW, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Well, I think it's actually pretty easy, in a sense.
The only way you're going to know what's inside of those buildings is to have a source inside of those buildings who also happens to have satellite communications at that time. That's almost unheard of for the agency to have that type of sources.
You would be dependent either on visual observation. And that's not going to really do all that much for you, in all probability. Or you're going to have to be dependent on liaison information. And, as Mr. Rohde pointed out, depending upon liaison information coming from the Pakistanis is usually very precarious.
SCIUTTO: David, the intelligence officials, or U.S. officials have told me that despite the fact that they had hundreds of hours of surveillance on that particular site, that these hostages are so high- value that they would never have been brought out of the compound. They would have been hidden well, and that's why it's possible to have all that surveillance and never see or have any indication that there were Western hostages inside.
[15:10:10]
In your experience, when you were held -- and, granted, you were held by a different group -- but when you were held, did they keep you under wraps like that so you wouldn't be spotted from above? Because they're very aware of U.S. satellite and drone capability. Did they keep you under wraps like that?
ROHDE: They did. That -- this is a mistake. There should be an investigation, but they're aware of that. They kept me under wraps.
They believed Americans had amazing technology where if I ever looked up at the sky, a drone would instantly recognize me. So they probably did, you know, restrict them in their movements and hide them. It's just tragic what's happened here.
SCIUTTO: Reuel, I wonder if I can ask you here, because there's a big picture question here about the effectiveness of drone strikes, so many questions. There are the civilian casualties on the ground that have happened in every country, whether it be Pakistan, Somalia, has led to enormous anti-American feeling as a result of those.
You have the great potential for mistakes. You have the old question that Donald Rumsfeld asked nearly a decade ago. Are you creating more of them than you're killing by creating more hostility with these strikes? Could something like this be a watershed event for the U.S. drone program? Could this turn it over, make this president and future presidents reconsider or consider ending the program?
GERECHT: Well, I'm skeptical. It's possible, but perhaps not for those reasons.
I'm surprised, actually, that terrorist groups haven't used hostages more effectively in the past to insulate them from drone attacks. The range for special operations is quite limited. Drones are larger. And I think most terrorists certainly in Pakistan and Afghanistan fear the use of drones more than they do helicopters coming over the mountains.
So if they were to let it known that the hostages travel with high- priority targets, I think it would have a real insulating effect upon American actions. Drones have their distinct limitations. I think there are times where they can be quite effective, and there are individuals that you want to take out.
And there's no way you're going to be able to send special operations by helicopter and to take out these folks. So, it's a hard call, but, again, I'm surprised we haven't seen more of this sooner.
SCIUTTO: Each drone strike itself is a hard call, a difficult call, a deadly call.
David Rohde and Reuel Gerecht, great to have you both on.
Coming up next, Senator John McCain is weighing in on all this, his first public comments since the news broke. He's going to join us live.
Plus, Brooke Baldwin is live in Baltimore monitoring a rally that's about to begin there.
Brooke, how's it looking there?
BALDWIN: Yes, definitely more and more people beginning to gather here, as we're now in the 3:00 Eastern hour here at City Hall in Baltimore.
We are, let me tell you this, getting some breaking news about one of the police officers involved in Freddie Gray's arrest, news about his own history of violence. Stay right here. You're watching CNN's special live coverage. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:17:35]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington with more on our breaking news, two hostages, including an American, accidentally killed along with two American al Qaeda operatives by U.S. drone strikes along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.
CNN's chief congressional correspondent, Dana Bash is on Capitol Hill with Senator John McCain, who's been very vocal on the U.S. drone program.
Dana, it will be interesting to hear what he has to say.
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Thank you so much, Jim.
And thank you very much.
You're the chairman of the Armed Services Committee. You obviously are very well-versed in the drone policy. Given what happened, should the drone policy be revisited?
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I think what happened should be revisited, obviously, because a terrible thing happened. And it's killed two innocent people, one American, one Italian.
So the whole process has to be revisited and reviewed. But to do away with the drone program, of course, would deprive of us our -- of an enormously important tool against -- that we use to take out the leaders of these terrorist organizations.
BASH: Given the fact that it seems as though our intelligence clearly failed us this time...
MCCAIN: Yes.
BASH: ... meaning the U.S. intelligence didn't detect that there were two American civilians...
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: Yes. Yes. And so, what went wrong? Why didn't they know it?
And, by the way, there's no substitute for boots on the ground. I'm not saying there could have been boots on the ground here in this particular scenario, but it really helps when you have American eyes there.
So review what happened, why did it happen, and is there ways to prevent it? Or some may reach the conclusion that said, look, this is the risk that you take when you are engaged in this kind of conflict. But it seems to me that, since we have so much capability, that we're going to find out that it could have been avoided.
BASH: But does the U.S. rely too much on drones these days?
MCCAIN: I think we rely way too much on drones in many areas.
And there are other areas, like deep in areas where Americans just can't get to, then that's our only tool. But there are some areas where we should have boots on the ground, we should have American presence. And, unfortunately, we have to rely on the drones.
BASH: Is this one of the areas where you believe that the U.S. relies too much on drones, or is this an example where you believe it was appropriate?
[15:20:03]
MCCAIN: I just think it's an example where serious mistakes were made. So you have to review it and you have figure out why this happened.
And it's a tragedy. There's no doubt that this is a tragedy, but we are in a war, a conflict, against an enemy who's bent on our destruction. It's very clear that the other individual who was killed in this strike as well was an individual who was a leader in their effort to attack America.
BASH: The Weinstein family put out a pretty lengthy statement. In part of it, they were thanking their U.S. senators from Maryland, Mikulski and Cardin, but also it was pretty tough on what was clearly the administration, saying, "Unfortunately, the assistance we received from other elements of the U.S. government was inconsistent and disappointing over the three-and-a-half years."
And they went on to say that they hope that their loved one's death prompts better communication with families.
Given -- I mean, you have history with this.
MCCAIN: I hope so too.
BASH: Is there a problem with the U.S. government and communicating properly with families, especially when there are intelligence issues here?
MCCAIN: I think there has been a problem with the communication between the White House and the families.
As you know, a wonderful young woman named Kayla Mueller of Prescott, Arizona, was killed by these terrible people. And I think, over time, the communication with her family got better. I also think we should review why we were unable to rescue her as well.
But, again, this is a tough business we're in. And I don't want to be in the position of Monday-morning quarterbacking, but we have to have the insurance. Members of Congress, families, and others have to make sure that whatever measures are necessary to prevent this from ever happening again.
BASH: If I may, just one quick political question.
MCCAIN: Anything.
BASH: Because you have been pretty out there on -- and engaged in the 2016 race for president on the Republican side, really taking some whacks at Ted Cruz and most recently Rand Paul on his foreign policy.
You were a nominee, not just a candidate, a nominee. Why do you want to get in there so badly?
MCCAIN: I guess, you know, it's like the horse that used to draw the milk wagon.
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAIN: No, really, it's thrust upon me, some of this. In other words, Senator Cruz, who I like and is a valued member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said that he had -- or the impression was created that he had pressured me to do something that I didn't know anything about.
So I had to respond. In the case of Senator Rand Paul, he has been talking about me. And, of course, I have to respond to that. I think that his national security views are very dangerous to the future of America. So I feel compelled to speak out, particularly when he makes statements and assertions, which are like the fact that we shouldn't have taken Gadhafi out of Libya, like we shouldn't -- he said that we shouldn't provide aid to Israel because they're a wealthy country.
He said that the Iranians aren't a threat. He has a long record of statements of his and positions which I think would be not appropriate for a Republican nominee for president of the United States.
BASH: And we should say, as we leave it here, that you are fully endorsing your good friend Lindsey Graham, who's also very likely to run.
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: As national security becomes more and more important, you will see the rise of Lindsey Graham.
BASH: Thank you, Senator McCain.
MCCAIN: Thank you, Dana.
BASH: And, Jim, back to you.
SCIUTTO: Well, he didn't quite indict the drone program as a whole, Dana Bash. Interesting. Just said that more needs to be done to look into this case.
Back to Brooke Baldwin in Baltimore, where we can see the crowds behind you there, Brooke. Looks like the protest is coming together.
BALDWIN: Yes, it has begun.
And they're looping around this whole grassy area, this park in front of City Hall, estimating so far maybe 200 people. And I marched -- covered the marches in New York. And I have to have say, the makeup is similar, older, younger, multi -- multiple ethnicities here walking around here in Baltimore because they're frustrated.
You see the signs saying justice for Freddie Gray. They will be looping around us. And you will see them continue here. And it's anticipated to grow through the next couple of hours. So that's happening.
This is also happening. We have some new information about one of the officers involved in the case of Freddie Gray. And let me tell you about that right now, the suspect, of course, this young man, this 25- year-old whose death in police custody sparked outrage and protest, such as the ones we're seeing here. CNN has now learned that Lieutenant Brian Rice has been accused, not
once, but twice, of domestic abuse and that he also had a temporary restraining order against him that was later denied by the courts.
So far, we have not been able to get a comment from Rice or his lawyer. We're working on that. But, meantime, back to what's happening here at Baltimore City Hall, these protests, these people who are furious. Demonstrators are gathering. They want answers in the wake of the death of this 25-year-old young man, as I mentioned, 200 right now. Thousands are anticipated this evening.
[15:25:20]
And also, we're hearing this weekend, Saturday in particular, to be particularly large. You have state troopers sent in by the governor. They're standing guard here as well alongside Baltimore police. They want to ensure these protests remain peaceful, as the community here is calling for justice for the 25-year-old man who died four days ago now.
We have also learned Gray's family has just received his body this morning. We're getting some news as far as the funeral is concerned in the next couple of days. Their attorney also says they will be conducting a private autopsy of Freddie Gray. His supporters are now not only outraged over his death, but also by a comment from the police union.
Let me read the statement for you. They said this -- quote -- "We are very concerned about the rhetoric of the protests. In fact, the images seen on television look and sound much like a lynch mob."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENE RYAN, PRESIDENT, BALTIMORE FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: They have already tried and convicted the officers. And that's just unfair. They still get their day in court. They did not give up their constitutional rights when they became a law enforcement officer.
That's what I was getting at with that. Some of the protesters and some of the stuff I have been watching on the news, they want them put in prison. Well, they haven't been charged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: I have Baltimore City Councilman Carl Stokes with me.
Thank you so much for taking the time.
CARL STOKES, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCILMAN: Yes, thank you, Brooke, for covering this for us.
BALDWIN: It's important to be here. And it's important to cover this whole story, as much as we can, given the fact there's a dearth of information.
(CROSSTALK) BALDWIN: Let me just begin with, you're fired up, and you're fired up specifically over the mayor, whose office is just over our shoulder, Stephanie Rawlings-Blake. You say she's been too calm about all this.
STOKES: Well, for too long.
I don't want to make this a distraction of elected officials quarreling and quibbling, because that's not what this bigger issue is. The bigger issue and why I'm upset is the fact that leadership has been too calm about this entire police brutality issue in Baltimore City for years.
Mr. Gray's death last week is a touchstone. It is a tipping point for those of us in the community here in Baltimore. But this is not the first of it. And that's why I say that the mayor and others are much too calm about this. It's been going on for years.
BALDWIN: Here's how the mayor has responded, just to be on her side.
STOKES: OK.
BALDWIN: She's just responded saying, "Screaming and yelling is not going to get the Gray family the answers they're looking for."
So that's how she's responding. I'm also reminded -- I live in New York.
STOKES: Sure.
BALDWIN: I'm reminded of Mayor Bill de Blasio when there were two officers who were brutally shot and killed. And he, to some, appeared a tad too empathetic to the African-American community and not quite as supportive of officers. Who could forget the picture of those officers turning their backs on the mayor of the city of New York?
And so there are concerns that if she were to be pounding her fists a little louder, that she could be alienating police.
STOKES: No, no.
BALDWIN: You don't want that.
STOKES: Most of Baltimore citizens are fine with most of Baltimore City's police.
We are not against our police in Baltimore City. We have a decent relationship. What we don't have a tolerance for is the fact that there is more than a handful of really bad cops in this town, and that this is not a new problem. What's new is the technology on cell phone cameras that allow this to be exposed more so than it's ever been.
BALDWIN: Right.
STOKES: We are fine with the majority of our cops. We're not happy at all with the more than handful of cops.
BALDWIN: You grew up here.
STOKES: I did.
BALDWIN: This is your home.
STOKES: It is.
BALDWIN: Growing up as a black man in Baltimore, what was your experience like at 25, just using that example, as Freddie Gray was 25, and how have you seen attitudes towards police shift?
(CROSSTALK)
STOKES: Yes, I had a really nice experience, good experience with police officers in Baltimore City. They knew my name. They knew my parents' name. I knew them.
At some point, things shifted. And I think part of that is because we recruit so many officers who live so many miles away.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: They're not here in the city of Baltimore?
STOKES: No, they're not. Officers commute to Baltimore one, two, three hours a day. They drive into the city. They come in somewhat as an occupied force, and then they leave.
They don't go to church here. They don't shop in the supermarket here. They don't...
BALDWIN: But isn't that on people in Baltimore then to get people who live in the community to come represent and protect, serve and protect their own?
STOKES: Well, I think...
BALDWIN: And, by the way, you're not alone in saying that.
STOKES: Right.
BALDWIN: We heard that after what happened in Ferguson, Missouri. A lot of those officers, they're not as emotionally invested in the community.
STOKES: Right.
I think that the officers that we recruit can live anywhere they want when we recruit them. I think they ought to make Baltimore their home. If they want to be paid and to encourage and to be a part of the community, that's what they should feel, that they will live in and near the city of Baltimore, so that they have this relationship with the citizens.
BALDWIN: So many of these people out here are very, very angry, and they absolutely are saying, in this case in particular - and we don't have all the facts - but they are absolutely saying this is police brutality, they've seen the videos. And so in one sense, they want attitudes among officers to shift.
But I'm also wondering if attitudes towards police officers within members of the community need to shift as well?
STOKES: I think that, frankly, we have a good attitude toward our good police officers. I think we are willing to sit with officers and to tell them what we know is going on in our communities. I think people get more upset, not in terms of, totally -- police brutality is huge. But I think good citizens are discouraged when police officers don't take care of the bad elements that are in our communities. So, many of us think the police aren't policing well in our communities. They sometimes brutalize good people, and don't find ways to discourage some of the bad behavior of hoodlums in out neighborhoods.
BALDWIN: Carl Stokes, city councilman here in Baltimore, thank you --
STOKES: Thanks, Brooke.
BALDWIN: -- very much for taking the time today. I appreciate it.
