Return to Transcripts main page
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Protests in Baltimore; Drone Strike Kills Two Hostages; Interview with Boston Marathon Bombing Survivor. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 23, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:09] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Hey, good evening. Thanks very much for joining us.
Eleven days after the death of Freddie Gray from injuries he suffered in police custody and on the day his body is returned to his family, tension is very high tonight on the streets of Baltimore. Protesters, many of whom marched first on city hall have made their way back to the western district police station. That's where Mr. Gray was first taken in a van, and then taken from, by balance, the hospital with fatal spinal injuries.
Now, there have been angry, edgy confrontations in Baltimore this evening, including one that our Brian Todd witnessed earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Some objects are being thrown at police and here they just got another man -- easy guys. We're being pushed. When they try to arrest someone they are being swarmed by protesters. OK, thank you. And some objects are being thrown. I'm not sure why that man was arrested. I didn't see what he allegedly did. But when they try to arrest anyone regarding the protests, you can see what happens here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Brian Todd joins us now.
So the scuffle we saw, do we know what happened there?
TODD: Anderson, at that moment we were witnessing two people being arrested. And that really got the crowd riled up, very angry. They confronted the police and it was almost a pretty violent confrontation. There were objects thrown. They got the police kind of got from themselves and other officers arresting those two people and got those two people away.
That was about as violent as it has gotten. This is a very interesting scene right here. They are doing kind of an impromptu street dramatic play, kind of simulation or arrest and what they believe the police are doing, people down on the ground with their hands behind their backs. They got some street drama here to vent their anger at the police, show us and others what they believe the police are doing and the brutality that they believe the police are committing on them. It has been going on all night. Really, angry protests, but I also
have to say, Anderson, and by enlarge, these protesters have kind of policed themselves. Whenever this gotten kind of potential confrontational with officers, they have protest leaders telling the fellow protesters to stop throwing objects. So they are angry and passionate, but by enlarge, pretty peaceful, Anderson.
COOPER: Brian, just for some context, do you have any sense of how large the protest is where you are?
TODD: I would say probably 300 people. And it has kind of ebb and flowed but right now I say 300 people. Right now, it feels like more because they are making a lot of noise.
COOPER: Sure. Brian Todd. Brian, thank you very much.
I want to go now to our Miguel Marquez. He joins us now.
Miguel, first of all, where are you and what are you seeing where you are?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well we are not very far from where Brian is over here. The crowd has thinned out quite a bit. There is about 150 people or so here. The police, I can show you, this is the western district. They've changed the security arrangements for tonight and there are literally more police out here than protesters. They go down to the other end of the western district but they left the street open which they were not doing last night.
The police, despite a lot of people are hanging over the rails, taunting the police all day, they have shown great restraint. In some cases you had some of the commanders come out and take people off the line who are having trouble either standing there for that long because they've been out here for many hours or because the taunting at some points gets to them.
For the most part, the protesters have been very angry, taunting the police officers. And there has been great restraint shown by the police officers. Clearly the commissioner wants to let them protest and let them get out. And the commissioner today meeting with some members of -- distant members of Freddie Gray's family trying to diffuse the situation. The protest today not panning out as big as protesters said it would be but everybody focusing on Saturday. And there is concern among the protesters working here to organize this saying that Saturday could get out of hand and a lot of groups coming in from out of town -- Anderson.
COOPER: What is the plan for the Saturday protest? I mean, do you know?
MARQUEZ: It is diffuse. There are going to be protests here in front of the police station, down the block where Freddie Gray was arrested and downtown at city hall. City hall is where it is really going to -- the focal point will be but they are starting in different places and it sounds like there will be a lot of people marching to here or from here to city hall as well. It is going to be a very, very big event it sounds like -- Anderson.
[20:05:02] COOPER: And how are the protests organized? I mean, you talk about it being diffuse and obviously, we have seen kind of multiple locations on different nights. Is this spread through word of mouth, through social media? Do we know?
MARQUEZ: A lot of it is word of mouth. There are a lot of community groups here in the Gilmore homes area and the NAACP is involved in that is getting people out. The nation of Islam though is coming up from Washington, D.C. They are busing people in as well. We've heard from protesters in New York and in Ferguson and in different parts around the country who are starting to come in. And we're seeing a lot of different groups as well, not just African-American groups, but those concerned with justice across the board we're starting to see to come in here as well. So we think it will be many, many individuals coming in to Baltimore on Saturday -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Miguel, thank you very much. We are going, of course, continue to keep an eye on the demonstrations throughout the hour that we're on the air tonight.
Joining us now is the Gray family attorney, Billy Murphy. Mr. Murphy, good to have you on again. Now that the family has Mr. Gray's body, you plan to do an independent autopsy. What questions do you hope that autopsy will answer?
WILLIAM MURPHY, GRAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, we want to see what happened. We want to get a second look from somebody we trust. And we'll see what the body's condition was. We'll see whether there was evidence of other trauma and a lot of things. We'll look at the spine and the broken neck, things of that nature.
COOPER: The police, I talked to the attorney for the police officers yesterday and he says he believes whatever happened, happened once Mr. Gray was placed inside that van. He doesn't know what happened and he doesn't know how the injuries were sustained. Do you believe what happened to Mr. Gray occurred inside that van or do you believe it occurred before?
MURPHY: I don't really speculate until I get all of the facts. And we don't have that yet and we're not close to having that yet.
COOPER: We learned yesterday that five of the six officers have given statements for the investigation. Have you or the family gotten any more details from police as to what actually happened that day?
MURPHY: No, we haven't. And we're anxious to get that. But on the other hand, I respect that if they are still witnesses to be identified, they don't want to run the risk that we or anyone else will disseminate those statements so that those witnesses would be forewarned and make false consistent statements or something else like that. So we respect the investigative process and we're patient.
COOPER: I understand the mayor has requested a meeting with the Gray family. They are actually turned her down. Do you know why that is? MURPHY: The Gray family is really so upset right now about the loss
of their son. And they don't want to be disturbed for the foreseeable future and I'm sure, Anderson, that you can understand that. They also don't want to be a part of a media side-show and they don't want to be used for showings of goodwill. Their interested in what the mayor is going to do. And perhaps if they take the position that the mayor, after this is well down the line, has done all that she can done, they'll meet with her. But they are not in a position right now, nor should they be, nor should anyone expect them to be, to be seeing people. They want to be left alone.
COOPER: I know obviously there is an autopsy done and you've said wisely you don't want to go down the road of speculation, does it make any sense to you, when you hear -- the police attorney saying the injuries were sustained inside -- inside that van, I mean, does that -- does that pass a smell test for you?
MURPHY: Well my sense of smell is pretty numb right now because I've had so many things of smell that didn't smell good. So you have to forgive me if I'm not on the money with the smell test. But many things are possible but again that would be in the realm of speculation and I don't want to do that. This is too important and I want to go where the facts tell us we should go.
COOPER: Fair enough. Billy Murphy. It is good to have you on. Thank you.
And again we'll monitor developments in Baltimore throughout the hour and on CNN.
As always, quick reminder. Make sure you set your DVR. You can watch 360 any time you want.
Coming up next, the drone strike in Pakistan that took the lives of two Al-Qaeda hostages, including American aid worker, Warren Weinstein.
Also later, my conversation with the remarkable Adrian (INAUDIBLE) Davis, a dancer who survived the Boston marathon bombing and has just confronted her would-be killer in court.
[20:13:45] COOPER: We're back. The families of two Al-Qaeda hostages, one Italian, the other American are grieving tonight after learning their tragic act of war claimed the lives of their love ones.
American hostage Warren Weinstein and Italian hostage Giovanni Lo Porto killed in a drone strike back in January. That same strike killed one top American Al-Qaeda figure and a separate killed Adam (INAUDIBLE), a notorious U.S.-born Al-Qaeda mouth piece. The fact that the people ordering these strikes apparently did not know precisely who they were hitting or who in that, in case of the hostages, were tragically in harm's way has prompted questions for the intelligence community about this operations and the larger drone war.
More tonight from Jim Sciutto.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was in this mountainous border region between Pakistan and Afghanistan that a drone strike killed two western hostages held by Al-Qaeda, including one American, Warren Weinstein, abducted in Pakistan in 2011. The Al-Qaeda compound had been under surveillance for hundreds of hours, but the U.S. did not know was that Weinstein and the Italian Giovanni Lo Porto were being held and hidden inside.
In this proof of life video, Weinstein, an aid worker, pleaded for his freedom.
WARREN WEINSTEIN, KILLED IN U.S. DRONE STRIKES: It seems I have been totally abandoned.
[20:15:00] SCIUTTO: Today, President Obama apologized for a fatal mistake.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We believed this was an Al-Qaeda compound, that no civilians were present and that capturing these terrorists was not possible.
SCIUTTO: Weinstein's wife in a statement blamed his captors for his death but also demanded answers from Washington, saying, we do understand that the U.S. government will be conducted an independent investigation of the circumstances. We look forward to the results of that investigation.
Killed in the same attack was Al-Qaeda leader (INAUDIBLE). (INAUDIBLE) also an American, was the deputy head of Al-Qaeda in the Indian subcontinent, a new branch to the terror group that attempted to hijack Pakistani naval vessels last September.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the framework of America's war on so-called terror --
[20:00:09] Killed in another air strike in January, American Al-Qaeda operative and propagandist, Adam Guadan (ph), originally from California.
OBAMA: Our initial assessment indicates that this operation was fully consistent with the guidelines under which we conduct counterterrorism efforts in the region which has been our focus for years because it is the home of Al-Qaeda leadership.
SCIUTTO: Little solace for families who would hope desperately for a much better outcome.
COOPER: And Jim Sciutto joins me now from Washington.
If U.S. officials didn't know that Mr. Weinstein was in the compound, what makes them so sure that he was, in fact, killed. Do they have assets on the ground or how do they analyzed that?
SCIUTTO: Well, circumstantial evidence. They don't have body, they don't have DNA evidence. And keep in mind, it took them four months to establish this. These strikes took place in mid-January. I'm told that there was a crucial final piece of evidence just this month that led them to make this judgment. And it is an intelligence assessment. It is not 100 percent conclusive, but conclusive enough that the president is willing to go out and say so in public.
And listen, with all of this, what you discover, it's difficult to find one person who is trying to hide. I mean, we saw that with bin Laden. He hid for 10 years and it particularly hard to find them, you know, both at the time and place. We saw that for instance in their efforts to rescue James Foley and others in Syria. They found the right location but arrived there too late.
You know, you see this both the front end and the back end, difficult without hard assets on the ground to establish these things conclusively.
COOPER: Yes. Jim, appreciate the report. Thank you.
None of this, obviously is easy nor, as Jim said, nor is it simple. Joining us is former Bush White House homeland security advisor, Fran Townsend who currently serves on the DHS and CIA external advisory boards, also senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, journalist and former hostage David Rohde who had been in touch over the years with members of the Weinstein family and CNN national security analyst Peter Bergen.
Fran, I mean, obviously, it is a complicated operation, but how does U.S. get something like this, get something like this wrong?
FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, look. The administration said they had hundreds of hours of persistent surveillance. They knew, they had confirmed, they had a senior Al-Qaeda target in Farouk, a very bad guy, an American. There is an extended legal process to get the approval to target for killing it in a drone strike of an American. And they would have had this persistent surveillance to make sure they knew where in the compound, in other words, not to hit women and children. But there is no way, if they hide the hostages, as they did, short of having an asset inside of Al-Qaeda, inside of that compound, there is no way to avoid this. And so while it is a tragedy, it may not have been a mistake in terms of the guidelines as they were followed.
COOPER: And David, when you were being held hostage by the Taliban, you were held for some seven months before you able to escape, how worried were you about getting killed in a drone air strike?
DAVID ROHDE, KIDNAPPED BY TALIBAN, HELD IN PAKISTAN: The drones were around all of the time and there was actually a drone strike next to a house I was held in. The concussion from the explosion from the missile was so powerful it sort of blew out of the plastic that was on the windows in the room I was standing in and bits of shrapnel and dirt landed on our compound. So, you know, there were constant. The other side of the drone strikes was that they were killing senior
commanders. My guards hated the drone strikes because they were effective. They talked specifically about one very famous foreign militant who taught them how to make bombs and he was killed in a drone strike. So it is a difficult, you know, process, but from what I saw, and just my personal experience, they were largely effective.
COOPER: And David, I think that is what is interesting, I think with people haven't been there in the region don't realize, you can actually hear the drones buzzing, you know, flying overhead?
ROHDE: Yes. They are like small propeller aircraft, sort of a piper or like a Cessna (ph) circling overhead. And that they knew that. They would order me inside of the house whenever there was a drone overhead and they assumed that the American government was hunting me and the American government wanted to kill me, you know, because they had this crazy ideas about what they could get for one American captive. Yes, they are constantly overhead.
COOPER: Peter, what do we know, and they mentioned Farouk and also Adam Gadan, he obviously, his name has been well-known for quite some time. I think you and I have talked about him on this broadcast repeatedly over the years. How important were they?
[20:20:04] PETER BERGEN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Gadan was the first American charged with treason in five decades, Anderson. So, you know, treason is theoretically carried the death penalty and it is a charge this very rarely invoked. So, you know, he wasn't -- there is no evidence, I think, that he was -- he was planning operations against the United States, but he was a leading spokesman for Al- Qaeda. And U.S. prosecutors must have felt there was a pretty good case to advance this treason charge against him.
And Farouk, the other person who was killed, you know, it is a bit of a puzzled to me. We hear that he is an American but what we know about him is not a very great deal. I mean, he is -- he's head of this new Al-Qaeda affiliate, the salvation affiliate of Al-Qaeda. That affiliate has had a number of its leaders killed just in the last several months. And basically was I think in a tempt by Al-Qaeda to positioned itself as actually, you know, in a way of competing with ISIS, which is getting all these new affiliates. So Al-Qaeda went out and, I think it is really but more as a sign of their weakness rather than strength that they basically caught and get some local Pakistanis to become part of their (INAUDIBLE) affiliate, but less is known as the second American killed who was an Al-Qaeda leader.
COOPER: Jeff Toobin, in terms of the legality of killing American citizens without due process and I'm talking about Adam Gadan (ph) and Farouk, if in fact he was an American, Fran talked about. There is a process in order to be able to strike against American targets, what is that process? What is the legality there?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, according to the administration, they did not know specifically that they were trying to kill these two Americans. They were not disappointed that they were killed but this was not a targeted killing in the way the killing of the cleric al-Awaki was. These effectively were just other combatants and the position, I think, of both administrations, Bush and Obama has been, if you join in with Al-Qaeda which is an enemy of the United States and there is an authorization for use of military force, passed by Congress in 2001, if you join the enemy, you take your chances and if we are going to attack Al-Qaeda, and if you get killed, too bad and frankly, I don't see how you can't conduct war otherwise because you simply can't draw those fine distinctions even with something as accurate as drone.
COOPER: And Fran, you had talked about the sort heightened steps that the administration have to go through, what are they?
TOWNSEND: So well, in this case, just as quite right, when you talk to officials in the administration, they didn't know. This particular one is what they call a signature strike, right? They have persistent surveillance. They can tell from patterns of daily life, convoys, the size of the convoys. They look for certain markers to understand how senior members of Al-Qaeda is an operational leader, what kind of package of security does he have around him? And so. they establish that over periods of time.
Certainly we know, as Jeff mentioned, from the administration, if they know they are going to target an American citizen, there is a legal review process that goes on inside of the administration to satisfy itself that they have sufficient legal basis, evidence, intelligence, if you will, to justify the authorization of a strike.
COOPER: David, there is also this a proposal by Congressman Duncan Hunter, that there could have been a swap of the Taliban drug trafficker being held by the U.S. in-exchange for Mr. Weinstein, along with Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl and others western hostages. Obviously, that did not happened. Does that sound plausible to you?
ROHDE: It doesn't sound plausible, but you know, you just don't know. There is real in fighting in the government and the state department officials who helped negotiated the Bergdahl deal thought that, you know, they had to turn over five Taliban members for one American. So the idea that we know, the Taliban would give up several foreigners for one, you know, drug trafficker, it doesn't seem plausible to me.
COOPER: All right. Fran Townsend, thank you. David Rohde, Jeff Toobin, Peter Bergen as well.
Just ahead, more on protest in Baltimore over the death of Freddie Gray in police custody. And we are going to take you inside of a police van. And as you know, the police are saying that Mr. Gray sustained his deadly injuries inside that van. A lot of the protesters on the street say they don't see how that is possible. We are going to take you inside of a police van and show what you it is like. I'll speak with a police captain about what could have happened inside of there, if anything.
[20:28:18] COOPER: As protests continue in Baltimore tonight over the death of Freddie Gray, we are going to take a closer look at what we know and try to learn more about what we don't know.
Now, we know that Gray died after he was arrest by police in Baltimore. We know he had a spinal injury. What we don't know is whether something happened inside that police van that caused that injury or if that happened before or some combination of both.
So we want to give you a look inside the type of vehicle, something most of us haven't seen the inside of before. The Cape County, Georgia police Captain Steve Ford joins me now.
Captain Ford, can you just take us inside, show us exactly what the back of a transport van looks like?
CAPTAIN STEVE FORD, CAPE COUNTY, GA, POLICE: Sure. This, right here, is our prison transport vehicle. It is ten feet deep inside, five feet wide. There is a metal partition down the center. It is approximate four feet in height. On the interior of the van, there is seating for five prisoners on each side of the partition. Each prisoner has their own individual seat belt, once inside they are placed inside, they are seat belted in.
COOPER: And the partition that separates the driver, is that sound proof? Can the driver hear what is going on in the back?
FORD: No. It is not sound-proof. The drivers can hear any loud activity or anything that would take place in the back. The interior is also lit. There is lighting along the upper wall of the interior. So in tight time circumstances it could still viewed activity taking place inside of the transport vehicle.
COOPER: And can you show us the seat belts. I mean, how easy or difficult is it to put a seat belt on somebody? Is it a complicated process or as it is just as we all know how to put a seat belt on somebody.
FORD: It is not a complicated process at all. It is the standard lap belt, seat belt. The prisoner would be seated into the seat belt and the belt would be adjusted to their waist. It would be locked in place and tightened down around the waist to hold them into position.
COOPER: And if the vehicle -- we don't know exactly obviously what happened to Mr. Gray. The police say, the police lawyer believes something happened when he was in the van. They don't believe he received those injuries -- again this is the police attorney, don't believe that he received those injuries until he was in the van. If the only thing I can think of besides somebody else being in the vehicle with him, if he didn't receive the injuries before, is the vehicle driving so erratically that he's being slammed around from one side to another, is that even possible if somebody is face down on the floor and a vehicle is moving from side to side? Is there much room for a person to kind of be flung around in there?
FORD: It really depends on the size of the person. You can see through the walkway here, there is not a lot of space, plus there is a metal partition here as well, separating both sides of the prisoner transport van. COOPER: And the edge on the seat, I know this is kind of a specific
question, but the edge on the seat, is that relatively sharp? Is it - I couldn't see if it goes -- if it is a 90 degree angle or if it is something that somebody slammed against, if it would -- could potentially bruise them or harm them?
FORD: No. The edges of the seat are not sharp at all. As a matter of fact, they are covered, as can you see here. All edges inside the vehicle are rounded edges. Even the weldings. There is no sharp or protruding parts inside of the vehicle.
COOPER: It is fascinating to get a look. Captain Ford, I really appreciate your time. Thank you.
FORD: Thank you.
COOPER: A lot to talk about. Joining me now, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Sunny Hostin, forensic scientist Lawrence Kobilinsky, John Jay College of Criminal Justice, a retired NYPD detective Harry Houck.
Harry, we spoke to a former Baltimore police officer today who said that giving prisoners what he referred to as a rough ride in a police van was a long-standing technique in the city of Baltimore and that basically intentionally not strapping prisoners in and then driving erratically, giving them the so-called rough ride to kind of punish them. Have you heard of that?
HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: I've heard of it. And, you know, that could have happened here. We don't know.
HOUCK: How those injuries occurred inside of that 20-minute period inside of that van. So, it is very likely. I mean those things have seat belts for a reason. You know, because even, even if the driver's in a car accident, you know, vehicle accident, you have to be able to protect the people in the back of that thing.
COOPER: Professor Kobilinsky, the fact that there are not sharp edges, pointed edges, does that really mean anything? If somebody, again, we don't know if this technique of giving a rough ride was used, if this person is being given a rough ride, can they really get badly injured? Because there was a case, I should point out, back in 2005, a Baltimore man suffered fatal spinal injuries after being put in a police van, reportedly being subjected to a rough ride?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: Look, law enforcement has an absolutely obligation to protect prisoners in their custody. Let's assume he had a seat belt on, his head was still free to move in all kinds of directions. And if he did get a rough ride, that would explain the severing of the spinal cord. I still think that the vertebrae were broken, not in the van, but prior to getting into the van.
COOPER: Why? Because the force required, given the limited amount of space in it that vehicle?
KOBILINSKY: Yeah. I suspect that the vertebrae -- somehow dislodged -- displaced and that is what severed the cord and I think the rough ride would explain it. It makes sense to me that that is what would happen. You know, you've got to protect the prisoners in custody. You have got to seat belt them, protect them. I can understand not immobilizing the neck because they didn't know there was a neck injury. But then again they should have called for EMS immediately when the prisoner said he couldn't breathe and he was having problems. It was just negligence not calling the paramedics immediately.
COOPER: Sunny, you are a former federal prosecutor, have you heard of this rough ride?
SUNNY HOSTIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I have heard of that. And I will tell you, that in my view, legally, that doesn't necessarily exonerate these officers because what I'm ...
COOPER: Certainly not.
HOSTIN: On the narrative I'm hearing from the officers, as, you know, something must have happened in the van and I think many people are then thinking, well that makes them not responsible.
COOPER: No, the term rough ride doesn't mean like the streets were bumpy.
HOSTIN: Right. Exactly.
COOPER: This means this was a deliberate act.
HOSTIN: And so, you know, even if the injuries occurred inside of the van, I have got to agree with Dr. K., that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
HOSTIN: If they were exacerbated because of a rough ride that does not exonerate these officers.
COOPER: Harry, when you see these demonstrations out on the streets, it seemed like they were more prepared today for larger demonstrations ...
COOPER: But you were surprised they kind of - they weren't in riot gear, the response by the police.
HOUCK: Yeah, that really upset me when them out there without at least helmets, all right, because the fact is, you know, they probably assume some kind of demonstration tonight, some kind of violence because I heard they brought in the state police earlier. So they knew something was going to happen and we've got the weekend coming up here. So we have got police officers out there making arrests. We have probably a group of select thugs out there who are starting something out there in the street.
HOSTIN: You don't know that Harry.
HOUCK: There's a group.
HOSTIN: You can't say there are a group of select thugs.
HOSTIN: We know at this point that these protests have been peaceful and that is an American right.
HOUCK: Who committed the violence today? I'm not saying that there is a group of select thugs out there.
HOSTIN: We don't know they've had violence, we've heard that they were arrested for disorderly conduct.
HOUCK: There was arrests today.
HOSTIN: Suggested ...
HOUCK: Jumping on the - jumping on the police car, OK.
HOSTIN: You've got to be very careful.
HOUCK: ... not enforcing the law and Ferguson has set a precedent for this now, the fact that it is OK now to go out and just break the law when you are demonstrating. And that's a problem.
HOSTIN: These have been peaceful protests.
HOUCK: Yes, but these people.
HOSTIN: That is the bottom line. If that is their American right.
COOPER: We should point out two arrests ...
HOUCK: Not violent protests, though.
COOPER: Two arrests in a protests where hundreds of people involved is a pretty small ...
COOPER: A pretty small number.
HOSTIN: And I have got to disagree with Harry in terms of, you know, what we saw in Ferguson, Anderson. We were both on the ground there and what I saw was sort of this militarization of police. And I think that exacerbated some of the issues that happened in Ferguson.
COOPER: Well, we certainly ...
HOUCK: The police officers should be allowed to be heard.
HOSTIN: Not that they should be ...
HOUCK: You know, some ...
HOSTIN: They should be allowed to be heard, but do they need riot gear?
HOUCK: ... makes a decision ...
HOSTIN: But do they need riot gear?
HOUCK: The police officers out there, to go without a helmet ...
COOPER: But we should point out that the Baltimore police themselves in a tweet have called the protesters peaceful. So, I mean, by and large, what we are seeing is peaceful. I do think in Ferguson, what we saw was a lot of police departments who had no experience with riot crowds.
HOSTIN: With riot gear.
COOPER: With riot crowd. You know, with - in that kind of intense situation and we saw police officers, you know, pointing rifles at people, screaming at people and ...
HOSTIN: And teargas.
HOSTIN: And do we want to see that? And also ...
HOUCK: This is (INAUDIBLE) in Ferguson where the police stand by and didn't ...
HOSTIN: I hope you are not suggesting that you want to see that happen in Baltimore.
HOUCK: You are suggesting that. I'm not suggesting that.
COOPER: Nobody is suggesting that. But once the autopsy is done by the family, Professor Kobilinsky, how significant can that be? How much can they find that a previous autopsy didn't find? If this ...
KOBILINSKY: Well, you know, as you know, you know, it is a medical, legal examination of the body. The anatomical features, they will be able to tell us if the larynx had indeed been crushed and they'll very carefully describe, which cervical vertebrae were broken and whether the dislocation of the vertebrae was responsible for severing the cord. There is a lot we'll learn from the autopsy, but we'll not learn is exactly when the injuries took place and if it was in fact a two-step situation as we've been postulating and there is a lot to learn and I'm assuming that the autopsies will not differ from each other. But we have to wait and see what it says. COOPER: Professor Kobilinsky, thanks for being here, Harry Houck,
Sunny Hostin as well.
Federal prosecutors have rested in the penalty phase at the Boston bombing trial, and now among those who testified, survivor Adrienne Haslet-Davis, she's a good friend of this program, we've been following her recovery. She joins me ahead. Here how she stared down the killer in court when we continue.
COOPER: The prosecution is rested in the penalty phase of the Boston bombing trial. Prosecutors pushing the course for the death penalty. On Monday, the bombers defense team will make the case for life in prison. We neither saying his name, nor showing his picture. Our focus is as will always be on the survivors and the four lives taken. We remember 29-year old Krystle Campbell, eight-year old Martin Richard, 23-year-old graduate student Lingzi Lu and 27-year old MIT police officer Sean Collier who died in the shootout days after the bombings.
Today, much of the testimony focused on that youngest victim Martin Richard. The jury heard how Martin's mother rested her head on his chest as he bled to death on the sidewalk. More than 250 others were injured in the blast near the finish line of the Boston marathon two years ago and more than a dozen losing limbs. Several survivors testified for the prosecution in the penalty phase, including Adrianne Haslet-Davis. And you may recall, she bravely shared her most painful moments in the first year of her recovery in our documentary "The Survivor Diaries" just months after the attack. I asked Adrienne what outcome she wanted in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Have you told authorities what you would like to see happen to him?
ADRIENNE HASLET-DAVIS, BOSTON BOMBING SURVIVOR: I have. Yes. That is a question that I've been trying to answer for myself and I haven't yet. But I -- I know what my gut feels.
COOPER: Do you want to say what it feels?
HASLET-DAVIS: The death penalty.
COOPER: So you would like to see this person die?
HASLET-DAVIS: I do. Yeah.
COOPER: What is the thinking on it?
HASLET-DAVIS: You know, I don't feel like -- I don't feel like you can get away with something like that?
COOPER: Was that a hard decision for you to make?
HASLET-DAVIS: I didn't make it without thinking about it, long and hard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Adrianne got her day in court just yesterday and she joins me tonight.
I know you had thought about this and prepared yourself for a long time for this. But does anything prepare you from actually being in that courtroom and staring at this killer?
HASLET-DAVIS: You know, I've been preparing for it for a long time like you said, but nothing really can prepare you. You know, you can prepare yourself to not be prepared, if that makes sense. You can - you know, I, for a long time, you know, we've talked about that I didn't say his name and I still don't. And I didn't look at photos and I didn't really pay attention to as much news coverage, but that all changed once the trial started. But not a single thing on earth could prepare you for that.
COOPER: To see him, what goes through your mind?
HASLET-DAVIS: Ooh. Ah, you know, I can honestly say that it is part of PTSD. I have never -- I've never been in a physical altercation of any kind and I've never been in a place where I've wanted to physically harm someone until now. And I think -- I know I wanted to physically harm someone. And it is such an overwhelming feeling of wanting to just sort of lash out.
COOPER: After you testified, you stopped and you stared at him.
COOPER: Did he stare back? What was going through your mind while you were staring at him?
HASLET-DAVIS: So, when I was on the bench, when I was up on the stand, we were about - I was about as far away from him as I am with you now.
COOPER: Was it that close?
HASLET-DAVIS: It is that close. I stopped -- I stopped not knowing that I was even going to. I thought, gosh, you know, I want to get off this stand and then I looked up after I was off the stairs and he was right there. And I just stopped. It just stopped me in my tracks and I didn't quite realize that I was even doing it at the time and I looked at him and he could see me - I could see both of his eyes.
COOPER: And how long did you just stare at him?
HASLET-DAVIS: It felt like half an hour. I don't really know. But there was a point in time when I thought we were the only two people in the room. Nobody else was around. And I was just thinking about, gosh, this thing stared everyone down around us and took lives and destroyed, you know, Boston and destroyed, you know, so much of America even. And I thought, you know, what is going through his mind right now, being this close?
COOPER: We talked once a while ago and we just played the video and I'd asked you about what you - what was justice for you. Do you still believe the death penalty is the correct punishment?
HASLET-DAVIS: Absolutely. I haven't wavered from that. In fact, I feel stronger about that today than I did yesterday and stronger about that, you know, than the day before that. I do feel strongly on the death penalty for this case and for - I believe there is a justice system for a reason and I support the prosecutions, you know, going after that and I'm going to be really upset if he doesn't get the death penalty.
COOPER: I wouldn't ask this question if I knew you are OK talking about it and I know Adam wants you to talk about it.
COOPER: Your husband Adam who was physically injured as well in the bombing, he wasn't at the trial.
COOPER: What is going on with him?
HASLET-DAVIS: Yeah, he's not at the trial. He wanted to be so desperately. He was very brave in admitting himself into a mental hospital after -- you know, years now, I can't believe it has been years now of mental anguish and feeling guilt for taking the turn on to Boylston Street and suffering from severe depression.
COOPER: He feels responsible for your injury?
HASLET-DAVIS: He absolutely does. Yes.
COOPER: Were there times in the past two years when you worried he might not make it through?
HASLET-DAVIS: Yeah. Yeah. There were. Many times. I want sure if he would ever forgive himself and I'm still not sure if he will forgive himself but I really hope that he does.
COOPER: It is a sign of strength that he is reaching out for help.
HASLET-DAVIS: Absolutely. Absolutely it is. And PTSD is real. Depression is real. And I'm really glad he's seeking help and he's incredibly brave for doing it.
COOPER: I have to ask you about dancing. Because not only did you force me to dance in public.
HASLET-DAVIS: Have you been practicing?
COOPER: No. HASLET-DAVIS: Oh, maybe.
COOPER: But you are dancing - you're trying all different now dancing styles.
COOPER: I heard you are like - you are doing like hip-hop?
HASLET-DAVIS: I am doing hip-hop. It has been since like mid to late '80s since I've done hip-hop, but hip hop was like this back then and it has climbed its way up there.
COOPER: I'm still rocking that move, by the way.
HASLET-DAVIS: Yeah, that is just cool.
COOPER: Yeah. I'm - to bring it back.
HASLET-DAVIS: And that is why I did that.
COOPER: To bring it back.
HASLET-DAVIS: I did it just for you. I knew that. I knew that.
COOPER: Thank you.
HASLET-DAVIS: And I am. I felt like - you know, I wasn't limiting myself in life, so I shouldn't limit myself in dance. And I was in ballroom and I love ballroom and I'm still doing it. I'm proud to do it. I actually re-entered the competition circuit recently.
COOPER: And we have got some video of you there dancing ballroom.
HASLET-DAVIS: Yeah. Yeah. It is really fun. And - but I don't think I should limit myself in dance if I'm not limiting myself in life.
COOPER: Cool. It was great to talk to you.
HASLET-DAVIS: It is so great to talk to you, always.
COOPER: Thank you.
HASLET-DAVIS: Thank you.
COOPER: I love that line. She's not limiting herself in dance because she is not limiting herself in life.
Up next, we are going to go back to Baltimore. After day of protests, 11 days after the arrest, with all of these people on the street.
COOPER: I want to go back to Brian Todd in Baltimore. A very quick update on the demonstrations there. What is the latest, Brian?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, I'll set the scene for you. A smaller pocket of protesters now, they break into some impromptu chants and there is some people over here that were just chanting and now they are singing. Sometimes they have broken into some confrontations with police over here by the barricades and sometimes it is just conversation. This one police officer has been patiently listening to some people complaining to him and this is the scene tonight. Earlier it was, of course, much rougher when the police a few blocks away from here moved to arrest a couple of people. They got very confrontational and some people got jostled, the mob just got thrown, but by and large, this crowd has been very peaceful. And they have policed themselves. If some people start throwing things, other people get on them to say just to be very peaceful and don't cause trouble. So, a very angry crowd, passionate crowd, but by and large very peaceful, Anderson. They really just want more answers than they've gotten from the police and from the Mayor's office in the Freddie Gray case.
COOPER: Yeah, there is certainly still a lot we simply don't know. Brian, I appreciate. I want to check in with our Miguel Marquez. Miguel, set the scene where you are.
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it is important how much anger there has been over the last few days. It's been very few arrested ...
MARQUEZ: Keep in mind. I want to show you two important things. The gentleman there, the police officer in the white is Melvin Russell, he has been instrumental in trying to diffuse the crowd here, going into it at a certain point, being yelled at by many people and even bringing many protesters together with the police commissioner. And I want to point out this young man here who has been out here for about four or five hours now. For three hours Noah has been set out here with this sign all by himself waiting for the protesters to come out from the city hall, just some of the moments and the individuals involved in this protest and folks like Noah are concerned that on Saturday there is going to be so many outside groups coming into Baltimore that there is going to be a lot of shenanigans and they are worried about losing the threat of this protest to other groups who have other agendas. Anderson.
COOPER: All right, as you said, Miguel Marquez, there is going to be a lot of different groups coming up, some from Washington, D.C., others from other parts of the country for this protest on Saturday. The other big developments, of course, today, the family will be able to conduct their own autopsy with their experts. I talked to the family attorney at the top of this broadcast. They say that is the next step for them before they can actually lay Mr. Gray to rest. We'll be right back.
COOPER: That does it for us. Mike Ross, "SOMEBODY'S GOT TO DO IT" starts now.