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Manhunt for Tunis Gunmen; Dolce & Gabbana Comments on IVF Spark Controversy; Madonna's Hometown Mayor Defends City. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired March 18, 2015 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:02:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Just past the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN.

We do want to get back to our breaking news. A manhunt is still under way after 19 people, most of them tourists, were killed while others were taken hostage in the Tunisian capital of Tunis. This happened at world renowned Bardo Museum, just a couple of steps away from the national parliament building there. Authorities say these gunmen dressed in military garb opened fire on tourists as they were getting off buses to enter the museum.

We have heard from the prime minister of Tunisia today. He called the terror attack, quote, "the first of its kind in the capital city".

Let me tell you what we know at this point in time. Of the 19 dead, 17 were tourists. Not a one was American. 22 others were wounded. Two gunmen were killed by police, but three others are still at large. All hostages by now have been freed.

Joining me now is filmmaker and journalist, Roschon Sali, who produced the documentary "Tunisia, Between Secularism and Islam," and he's with me by phone.

Roschon, let's just begin with the fact that you were in Tunisia a couple months ago covering the elections. Before we get into the sheer number of Tunisians who have left to fight with ISIS in Syria, I understand you heard warnings of an attack then. Can you tell me about that?

ROSCHON SALI, FILMMAKER & JOURNALIST (voice-over): Well, you know, it doesn't surprise me what happened today, especially tourism. ISIS goes right to the divide between the Islamists and secularists. A very divided country. Tourism is very kind of important for the country in terms of the economy because the economy is tanking at moment, so it doesn't surprise me that terrorists in Tunisia would target tourists because what they are really targeting is the Westernized secular elite, which governs Tunisia. If it's found generally that the tourism industry is very humiliating because obviously alcohol is against the religion of Islam. They are not too keen of naked Western tourists parading on the beaches. So within Tunisia itself, this is a real hot button issue. And as you say, there's kind of 3,000 celibate jihadis, as we call them, going off to Libya and Syria so you have a minority of very conservative hard- liners who are prepared to use violence, and they consider the state un-Islamic and, therefore, targeting the tourism industry is kind of targeting the state.

BALDWIN: Let me just hammer home a little bit more on that because I think that's really key. And I had a guest on a little while ago who used the word "clever," the way the gunmen, and we still don't know who they are targeted, how they targeted tourists thus targeting the government because they are trying to target the economy but if they are targeting this Westernized Tunisia, what's the greater message then from these people?

[14:04:59] SALI: Well, you know, all across the Arab world since the Arab Spring broke out you've had Islamist secularist divide. In Tunisia, in fact, they have avoided a civil war, unlike Libya and Syria. So even though people are generally quite despondent three years after the Arab Spring --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Where it began, by the way.

SALI: There is kind of -- which began in Tunisia, yeah. And generally the Islamists and secularists have managed to get along reasonably well. There's definitely lots of divides in Tunisia which could explode, but they have decided that they are going to chart the future without violence. But you have this minority which isn't -- I don't want to tarnish them all. The consensus in Tunisia among the secularists and the Islamists that these guys -- the call them sectarians (ph), really, you have to take them on more militarily. And they have waged a campaign against them militarily. But if you don't destroy them militarily, there's no negotiating with them. They will destroy everyone else.

BALDWIN: Including more than a dozen tourists here at this beautiful museum in the capital of Tunisia.

Roschon Sali, thank you so much for jumping on the phone, a journalist in Tunisia, a couple months ago. Thanks so much, sir. Appreciate it.

Coming up next, a CNN exclusive interview with fashion designer Dolce & Gabbana. We talked about this earlier in the week, the headlines, their comments on in-vitro fertilization and gay parenting? Sparked a massive call for a boycott of their fashions. The whole thing was led Sir Elton John. Hear how they are now explaining now in an interview with CNN.

Plus, the mayor of pop star Madonna's hometown, boy oh, boy, does she have words for her. She talked some smack about where she grew up and now the mayor of her hometown of Rochester Hills, Michigan, joins me live. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:11:16] BALDWIN: The backlash from supporters of in-vitro fertilization, or IVF, is building after fashion designers Dolce & Gabbana said the technology created, quote, "synthetic children." Celebrities like Elton John and TV producer, Ryan Murphy, vowed to boycott the brand because they used IVF to create their own families. And this sparked the debate about non-traditional parenting roles. The fashion designers admitted they had some explaining to do.

CNN's Ana Coren sat down for this exclusive conversation with Domenico Dolce and Stefano Gabbana?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANA COREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As you know, there's been a lot of great criticism and backlash regarding comments about IVF. There's been calls to boycott Dolce & Gabbana. Do you stand by your comments?

STEFANO GABBANA, FASHION DESIGNER, DOLCE & GABBANA: We love gay couples. We are gay. We love gay couples. We love gay adoption. We love everything is just an expressed point of view.

(CROSSTALK)

DOMENICO DOLCE, FASHION DESIGNER, DOLCE & GABBANA: It's my private point of view. I'm Sicilian and have a very strong sense of family for myself. My company is family company and I believe in the traditional family. It's impossible to change my character for something different. It's me. For people, it's freedom of choice for what you want. The problem is democratic.

GABBANA: But the problem is that people attach us for this. This is not and it was not nice because I think in a different way from Domenico.

(CROSSTALK)

COREN: You believe in a different way. In what ways?

GABBANA: I believe in in-vitro.

COREN: You believe in IVF?

GABBANA: Yes.

COREN: You don't.

(CROSSTALK)

DOLCE: It's personal.

COREN: Today you don't need to support or not support. You think what you think. I think today there's too many --

(CROSSTALK)

DOLCE: It's not supporting. It's just your belief.

COREN: But you don't judge people who use IVF. You have children through the process of IVF --

(CROSSTALK)

COREN: -- like Elton John. Elton John has come out. He's angry and has called for a boycott of your brand.

DOLCE: I don't boycott Elton John. I see him every day. I don't care. Freedom.

GABBANA: Maybe we used the wrong way, synthetic, not synthetic for sure because it's not plastic.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

COREN: Has it been blown out of proportion?

DOLCE: Yes, this is true, this is true.

(CROSSTALK)

GABBANA: But for me, we don't like the attach, to say, boycott for what? Because you think I don't like you. Is this correct? Is this is not correct? We're in 2015.

COREN: What would you say to Elton John and other celebrities?

(CROSSTALK)

DOLCE: The life is long. Life is happy.

GABBANA: You don't need to be angry for nothing. You need just to look our collection, and you understand we are not --

(CROSSTALK)

DOLCE: If you make an error and in a second and attack you, I know.

COREN: Just for my clarification you're just saying you wouldn't choose to have children through IVF but you don't judge people who do.

GABBANA: No, no, for sure.

COREN: Is that fair?

GABBANA: Yeah, of course. You choose what you want in your life.

DOLCE: Yeah.

GABBANA: But you need to respect the different idea.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[14:44:57] BALDWIN: Dolce and Gabbana sitting down with our own Ana Coren.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: A little vintage Madonna for you on a Wednesday afternoon. Of course, pop music, icon Madonna, one of her very first music videos. That song came out in 1993, five years after Madonna moved from suburban Michigan to New York. Madonna sat down with Howard Stern last week and chatted about her, quote, "provincial hometown." And staying true to Madonna form, she did not mind her manners.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADONNA, SINGER: My house was not a fun place to bring people to, number one. Number two, we first grew up in Pontiac, which was a very racially mixed, mostly black environment and neighborhood, and -- and we were -- we went to Catholic schools and wore uniforms, and I just -- that was normal life to me. And when I went to high school, we moved to a suburb, and it was all white, and we were living above our means.

HOWARD STERN, RADIO SHOW HOST: When you go to an all-white school though, do you start to withdraw like the --

MADONNA: Well, I just didn't fit in. I just felt like I was with rich people, and I -- and I wasn't, and I felt out of place, and it was like they were members of like country clubs, and they had manicures and they wore nice clothes, and I didn't fit in. I felt like a country bumpkin.

Well, I was smart, but I didn't socialize really. I didn't have friends.

STERN: Why do you think that was?

MADONNA: Because I just thought everyone was an idiot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So some of you may say, well, what do you expect from Madonna. But at least one man is saying don't you talk about my city that way. That man is the mayor of that suburb Madonna was just describing, Mayor Bryan Barnett. He joins me now.

Mr. Mayor, welcome. Nice to see you.

BRYAN BARNETT, (D), MAYOR OF ROCHESTER HILLS, MICHIGAN: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: I know you wrote this open letter to Madonna. I read it. There was a part of it. I really think it's more effective hearing it come out of your mouth than mine. Do you mind? BARNETT: Sure. I penned this open letter over the weekend and

part reads, "Madonna, you've achieved unbelievable success, and while we appreciate your talent and achievement, we expect you to appreciate ours. We are and have been home to quite a few amazing people who are known for more innovative thinking than provincial, even a top selling global singer/songwriter. Despite your distaste for us, we have enshrined you in our community wall of fame at the Van Heusen Museum. Your portrait sits alongside Bertha Van Heusen, one of the first women to graduate from the University of Michigan in 1888 and one of the world's leading surgeons for nearly 60 years, a female trailblazer in the field of medicine at the university your daughter now attends."

BALDWIN: We'll get to that community hall of fame in just a minute, but Mayor Barnett, as you point out, Madonna has sent her own daughter to Michigan, to Ann Arbor, for college.

BARNETT: Yeah. When I heard the remarks, you know, I felt it needed a response. We have a community that's absolutely worth defending, and whether or not we're able to change Madonna's mind, anyone whose first exposure to Rochester Hills is, via her comments, I wanted them to know that there certainly is a very innovative, diverse community in Rochester Hills, much more than she would suggest.

BALDWIN: Doing our due diligence, we reached out to Madonna and have yet to hear back. Let me just put that out there.

I do understand over the weekend you wrote a couple of different versions of this letter and then he re-tweaked you. That's my word. I don't know if you would qualify it the same way. What about the community? Do people there even care what Madonna thinks about Rochester Hills?

BARNETT: Well, I'm not sure they necessarily care what she thinks. I mean, as I mentioned, you know, we are proud of her achievements and the fact that she did spend time growing up in our community, but I think what our community is very proud of is our reputation. We were just recognized as one of the top-10 best places to live in the entire country by "Money" magazine. So when someone takes a shot at you, at least in my opinion as mayor of the community, it felt like they were saying my kids were ugly, and I wanted to respond to that.

BALDWIN: Good for you.

BARNETT: Our community is strong, and I think they have appreciated the response.

BALDWIN: Good for you. If Madonna were to, you know, poof out of thin air, call you up and say, all right, I'll take that invitation to come back to my hometown, what's the first place you would take her? What would you do?

BARNETT: I'd probably take her up and down the streets that she knew as a kid, to her old neighborhood, back to her old high school. And we've grown and changed as a community. We're quite innovative. Rochester Hills residents apply for and get a patent a day. We're the robotic capital of the day. We have churches, all different types of houses of worship now, and we've really changed a lot since the years she cheered at Rochester Adams. There would be no shortage of placed to take her show her the breadth and diversity of our community.

[14:50:03] BALDWIN: Quickly, Mayor, hard feelings? Does her picture stay on the community hall of fame?

BARNETT: Of course, it does. I hope to hear from her. Either way, we've been offered a great opportunity to talk about the great things happening in Rochester Hills.

BALDWIN: OK.

BARNETT: We think that this is a great shot for the community to see, the world to see about our community.

BALDWIN: Mayor Bryan Barnett, thank you.

BARNETT: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Coming up, we're going to Arizona. Police in Mesa on a manhunt for an active shooter. At least four people have been shot in several locations. We'll tell you what police know so far about the suspect.

And much more on a breaking story, another manhunt, but this one in northern Tunisia in northern Africa after 19 people were killed in a terror attack at a museum.

Stay here. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:54:59] BALDWIN: At age 3, Jeff and Hillary Whittington's child was trying to tell them something. Their daughter, just a pre- schooler at the time, wanted them to understand she did not feel like a girl. She would shout, "I'm a boy." The decisions this family made and the journey they are taking, all part of a new CNN film. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HILLARY WHITTINGTON, MOTHER OF RYLAND: We went to the pre-school --

JEFF WHITTINGTON, FATHER OF RYLAND: For open house.

HILLARY WHITTINGTON: -- for open house and all the kids had their self-portraits up and Ryland made a vest and a tie.

JEFF WHITTINGTON: A vest, a tie.

HILLARY WHITTINGTON: -- a tie and short hair before you even had short hair, huh? Remember that? You made this when you had long hair but knew what you looked like inside your head.

JEFF WHITTINGTON: You have chip on your face, dude.

RYLAND WHITTINGTON, DAUGHTER SAYS SHE'S A BOY: I made it short hair.

HILLARY WHITTINGTON: Is that you trying to tell us something?

RYLAND WHITTINGTON: And I couldn't.

HILLARY WHITTINGTON: Why couldn't you? Because you were 3? Mommy and daddy didn't understand yet, did we?

RYLAND WHITTINGTON: No.

(MUSIC)

HILLARY WHITTINGTON: I wouldn't do anything different. All I want is to be a good mom.

JEFF WHITTINGTON: We don't know a whole lot of people with children as young as Ryland who have gone down this road.

Yes, he's just a kid, but he's a kid that feels very strongly about something, and we need to open up our minds and understand that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: That film's director, Sarah Feeley, joins me.

Sarah, nice to see you. Welcome.

SARAH FEELEY, DIRECTOR: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: What a story. Let's begin with, in this clip, Ryland's mom points out that he was 3 years old and saw himself as a boy. He didn't understand at first. How do you document how these parents came to understand who this little child wanted to be?

FEELEY: Well, you know, the Whittington's are an incredibly brave family. They are standing up for Ryland and are unwavering in their commitment for unconditional love for him, and so part of the process of making a film like that is working with a family who is willing to open their lives in this way. It takes a lot of courage, and so I was very careful and I followed Hillary and Jeff's lead in terms of trying to be sensitive to the complexities of their journey.

BALDWIN: Part of the journey that you see in this piece, how these parents helped Ryland make this transition. Can you explain to our viewers what some of those examples are?

FEELEY: Absolutely. You know, when a child like Ryland, who was 5 years old when he transitioned, what that simply means is that the child maybe cuts their hair or changes their pronouns. In Ryland's case, he had a gender-neutral name so his transition involved, you know, a haircut and some new -- and some new pronouns, but really those acts are very simple. But the act of courage to -- to support and affirm your child's gender identity when your gender identity doesn't match your physical anatomy takes a special kind of commitment and love for your child.

BALDWIN: At the end of the film, a mom says, "You can only do what you can do and hope people open their minds." I have to think of the people who would be watching this thinking this child is so young, how would the child now and how dare the parents help with this transition? How have the parents responded to those criticisms?

FEELEY: You know, I think there's a lot of confusion about the difference between gender and either sex or sexual orientation, right? Your gender identity comes from between your ears. It's in your brain and your sex is your anatomy, right? And so I think that, you know, for -- for Hillary and Jeff supporting Ryland and making sure he had a healthy, happy childhood was first and foremost in their mind. And, you know, it's what I hope by sharing this story, by sharing Ryland's story, is that people will start to understand what being transgender mean, and it's really not a scary terrible thing. You know, what's really scary and terrible is that more than 50 percent of transgender youth will have attempted to commit suicide before their 21st birthday, and that is just -- that is truly, truly, truly terrible.

BALDWIN: Yeah.

FEELEY: And I think that having a loving and supportive family makes all the difference and could be the difference between life and death for a lot of these children.

BALDWIN: Sarah Feeley is the filmmaker.

For all of you who would like to watch this short film, which is available right now on CNN.com, just go to CNN.com/digitalshorts.

Sarah, thank you.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

[14:59:55] BALDWIN: And we continue on to the top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

I've got to begin with breaking news, actually in multiple parts of the world. We'll begin with a manhunt under way in Mesa, Arizona, where police are searching for a gunman they say who has shot at least four people.