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CNN'S AMANPOUR
Identity of Jihadi John Revealed; Egypt Touts Economy in Stability Push; Protests on the Rise in Venezuela; Imagine a World
Aired February 26, 2015 - 14:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: the identity of the brutal ISIS executioner, Jihadi John, is revealed.
Also ahead, Egypt's finance minister live on the economy and the battle against ISIS.
And fighting for her husband's freedom: I speak to the wife of Venezuela's jailed opposition leader.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
Today we learn more detail about the ISIS terrorist known as Jihadi John. He's the notorious knife-wielding executioner of Western hostages
and he's become one of the world's most wanted men.
Now it turns out he lives not too far from here in West London. U.S. officials tell CNN his real name is Mohammed Emwazi. And he comes from a
well-to-do British Kuwaiti family.
The U.K. advocacy group CAGE, which works with Muslim communities which are impacted by the war on terror, claims that Emwazi started
becoming radicalized after several run-ins with the U.K. security services when he tried to travel on holiday to Tanzania and Kuwait.
CAGE's research director, Asim Qureshi, painted a picture of Jihadi John that's completely at odds with his fearsome reputation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Well, you might be surprised to know that the Londoner that I knew was extremely kind, extremely gentle, extremely soft-spoken, was the most
humble young person that I knew.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Well, that's one view of him. The French journalist Didier Francois has another. He was one of the very few, one of
the lucky ones, to escape Jihadi John's savagery in Syria. He guarded him and U.S. journalists, including James Foley. And Didier described him to
me as a coldblooded killer.
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DIDIER FRANCOIS, JOURNALIST AND FORMER HOSTAGE: They want you to give away your freedom, your freedom of -- your will and you -- they want you to
accept, to be under their orders and on everything. They don't like when you start to negotiate, speak, ask, demand. They don't like it, especially
with the Beatles, OK?
AMANPOUR: The Beatles? Let's be clear: it's the name that was given to the four Brits.
FRANCOIS: Yes, because we didn't know their names so we are calling them the Beatles (INAUDIBLE) because there were three, basically --
AMANPOUR: Three?
FRANCOIS: -- three of them were --
AMANPOUR: So John, Paul, George, Ringo?
FRANCOIS: Oh, la, la. That was -- that was -- that was the nicknames.
But so they were ardor (ph) in their violence. And -- but at the same time they were hitting us, because of course when you beat someone, then
you have to, yes, to be in a better shape.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: So you have to feed them up to get them strong and then beat them up again.
FRANCOIS: -- more food with them.
AMANPOUR: Obviously he first came to global prominence with that horrendous video with James Foley.
Do you believe he was the killer?
FRANCOIS: Yes, I do.
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AMANPOUR: Well, that's clear enough. Yes, he believes he was the killer of all those Western hostages.
So Ming Campbell is on the U.K. Parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee. They're the body that has oversight of Britain's security
services and he joins me live from Edinburgh this evening.
So Ming, thank you for joining me again and welcome back to the program.
Now what do you make of the claim by CAGE and others that he had been several times talked to, some say recruited, by certainly in the sights of
British security services, MI-5?
How is it that he slipped through the net?
MENZIES CAMPBELL, U.K. PARLIAMENT: Well, there are two questions there. The first is whether that operates to some kind of excuse, same
answer I give to that is well, what about personal responsibility? Far too easy to say that it was all the fault of MI-5.
As to the question of slipping through the net, as you know we had a similar outrage as those you've been discussing here in the United Kingdom
in London, when the soldier was murdered outside Woolwich barracks. And on that occasion, those engaged had also been under the surveillance at one
stage of the security services.
But the answer is, of course, you can't keep surveillance on everyone all the time. And inevitably -- and I'm sure it's true in the United
States as well -- there has to be prioritization of resources and judgments have got to be made. But I think there's a strong argument based on the
case of Lee Rigby and this particular case to say, well, are we satisfied that we have got enough resources to deal with a threat which is at the
level of severe, as you know, and but which government ministers, quite rightly, are always reminding us.
AMANPOUR: So do you and what about stepping up funding for these kinds of situations because of course we've had the story over the past
week of these three teenagers who've left London and gone off to Turkey and Syria, et cetera.
I mean, at what point do you have the right resources, funding, et cetera, to stop this kind of thing?
CAMPBELL: Well, there's two ways, of course, you can sort the act of terrorism. But there's a more profound way of doing it. And there's a
system called PREVENT, which was established under the previous government, which is designed to cope with the opportunities for radicalization which
exist within communities. And unhappily that particular approach has suffered the loss of funding as well.
And therefore you've got to approach this on the basis, yes, we'll prevent acts of terrorism but much the best way of preventing them is to
discourage the whole question of radicalization at all.
AMANPOUR: Well, he's claimed that he started to be radicalized when he was questioned and taken in for interrogation by security services.
But here's the question: this was not a man from so-called the wrong side of the tracks. This was not a guy who spent years in prison and in
economic poverty; well-to-do parents. He studied at university, at the University of Westminster here.
Again, this poses a bigger question here in Britain and in our Western nations about how to deal with this kind of radicalization.
CAMPBELL: Well, this is an intelligent person. And that's one of the paradoxes, if you like, that intelligent people are driven to do things
which, in the case of this man, could reasonably be described as brutal and sadistic. I don't think anyone's got an immediate answer to that.
Remember that the perpetrators of 9/11 were all similarly sophisticated and well educated. But I think we have to continue to make
the point that in civilized societies, behavior of this kind simply will not be tolerated.
And I think there is an issue of course in Britain, and I expect to some extent in the United States as well, about communities feeling
isolated. And we have to find a way of drawing them in so that people do not feel that they have anything other than a full stake in the future of
the United Kingdom.
AMANPOUR: And because this man had been questioned and you are on the special parliamentary committee, had he come across your radar?
CAMPBELL: No. I know only of what we've heard today, although I was aware, of course, of the existence of someone who's called Jihadi John.
And I was also aware that the security services on both sides of the Atlantic were obviously anxious to try and find out who he might be.
But as you may have heard today, the Scotland Yard, metropolitan police in London, who take a leading role in counterterrorism are
maintaining the fact that they're not will to confirm or deny that it is him. And they were at great pains to try and prevent the name coming out
unless -- in case that should prejudice some of the human resources that have an intelligence and also, of course, some of the techniques that they
use for surveillance.
AMANPOUR: Sir Ming Campbell, thank you very much indeed for joining me tonight.
CAMPBELL: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Now four years after the Arab Spring uprising, ISIS has, in fact, emerged as the dominant force in the region. When we come back, the
Egyptian finance minister tells me about the struggle to stabilize his country and its economy. That's next.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
In the fight against ISIS and its reign of terror, Egypt has recast itself as a pillar of stability in the region, counting economic reforms to
shore up security. In a sign of the changing times, when President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi visited the Davos economic conference last month, he was
warmly received with nary a mention of how he sees power or the ongoing human rights issues and political turmoil in Egypt.
The country's officials are on a worldwide tour of Europe to promote a head of a big investors conference in Egypt next months. Joining me now
from the London Stock Exchange is Finance Minister Hany Kadry Dimian.
Mr. Minister, thank you very much for joining me.
HANY KADRY DIMIAN, EGYPTIAN FINANCE MINISTER: Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Let's talk about obviously one of the most important things in your country -- the economy.
Let's face it, the Arab Spring uprisings were motivated by a desire for better economic opportunities.
What have you and the president done over the last several months in terms of reforms, in terms of giving more confidence into your economy?
DIMIAN: Absolutely. The main mission of this government is to restore confidence in the Egyptian economy, that confidence that was lost
during a prolonged and delicate political transition that started in 2011.
And it's not only that we bring confidence by good policies, programs and policies and -- policies, programs and projects but more importantly
that when we do growth, we do better quality of growth within -- with sufficient inclusivity to sustain the vast majority of Egyptians.
So the strategy that we're working on is to expand and stretch on the economic basis of the country. I say that we live on 6 percent of our
arable land as much as we are utilizing only 10 percent of the capacity of our economy. And the role number one is to do the macroeconomic
imbalances, to restore them and make sure that we have sufficient new opportunities for investments with offering new projects and investment
opportunities as well as cutting the red tapes.
AMANPOUR: OK.
DIMIAN: That's the role number one.
AMANPOUR: OK, Mr. Minister, you are coming here also to promote a special conference in Egypt next month. And it's going to take place in
the Sinai. And we all know there's been quite a lot of instability or rather in Sharm el-Sheikh, and there's been a lot of instability. We exist
in the context of all of these problems from ISIS.
One of your big economic powerhouses was tourism. And it hasn't recovered since 2011.
What are you hoping, how are you hoping to turn that corner?
DIMIAN: Let me just tell you that the military actions against ISIS is taking place in almost less than 0.5 percent of the Sinai and it's not
anywhere close to the Sharm el-Sheikh.
And, two, that in Sinai, especially the Sharm el-Sheikh and the Red Sea we're having tourism that has recovered and in many cases it is close
to full capacity.
The Sharm el-Sheikh conference that we expect, it is just one major element in our vision on how to bring the Egyptian economy back to the
greater screens of the international investment community. And as I mentioned, we are pursuing economic policies to restore the macroeconomic
imbalances. That's one.
But also we're offering different broad-ranged titled projects that will attract different types of projects from different regions. In
energy, in industrial sector, in roads, in water desalination, in water treatment. You name it. So we have a broad agenda of offering investment
opportunities and there is an appetite for -- from the international business community to come and invest in Egypt.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you about a rather sensitive topic. Obviously people have praised the government's cutting back on fuel
subsidies. But at the same time, let's say the economists and other financial press have been saying that President Sisi, quote, "has made it
clear that he sees the private sector as simply playing a supporting role to the government as the steward of the economy and as we know and as has
been delineated many times, the military itself has so much control over the economy, as a finance minister, as a economic technocrat, do you think
that that is going to spur more economic growth?
DIMIAN: Let me just clarify an important fact here. When this government took place in early 2014, all investors were on a wait-and-see
mode. Nobody wanted to take or was willing to take the risk and the first step into the Egyptian markets.
So the government had to take the lead. But most of those projects are sort of subcontracted to the private sector, which has the capacity to
do them. Now look at the structure of our investment. Anything that we offer now, whether in the energy sector, whether renewable or the
conventional energy you'll find the private sector taking the lead under the triple P projects, we're offering projects with the magnitude of more
than 10 billion dollar pounds this year and around another 10 billion pound for the next year. And it's all going to be invested by the private
sector.
When you take the agricultural projects, these are being implemented by the private sector, even the Suez Canal project. It's implemented in
fact by the private sector.
So we're just opening the business opportunities for the private investors to explore the opportunities, to invest.
AMANPOUR: And Minister, finally, obviously the other big thing that the world looks at is what's going on on the human rights issues and on the
human rights table.
You know, recently we've seen one of the journalists deported; we now have a plea to send the other journalist, Mohammed Fahmy, back to his own
native Canada. We've seen a blogger jailed. And of course unfortunately there were tragic killings when people gathered to celebrate the Tahrir
Square uprisings last month.
How much of a problem is this bad PR for you as you try to inspire confidence?
And do you think your government needs to get to grips with some of these human rights issues?
DIMIAN: Let me tell you very frankly that these cases that you mentioned, there were criminal acts in -- against the rule of law. And if
those acts have come out in any country, even here in the U.K., the people would have been also facing the same legal procedures. That's one.
Two, with regard to confidence, as I mentioned to you, the Egyptian economy is offering vast opportunities. And it is on an uprising mood now.
Look at the growth rates, look at the diversification that we're offering in this economy. Look at the appetite from the different foreign investors
and I think we are moving on a right track.
And I wouldn't just link criminal acts to having an economy that is coming back to the -- where it should be.
AMANPOUR: The view from the Egyptian government, Minister Dimian, thank you so much indeed for joining me tonight.
DIMIAN: Thank you so much.
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AMANPOUR: But as we say, Egypt's Sinai Peninsula has been rocked by terrorism for months while across the border in Gaza, six months since the
cease-fire that ended the deadly conflict with Israel, Gaza still remains in ruin and despair. The subject of British graffiti artist Banksy's
latest work, suggesting the world cares more about cute kittens than shell- shocked children.
The international community pledged $5.5 billion to rebuild Gaza, yet virtually none of that has arrived.
After a break, Venezuela on the verge of a nervous breakdown. The view from the wife of jailed activist Leopoldo Lopez -- next.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
And crackdown in Caracas, Venezuela is facing a rising tide of discontent as anger boils over the dire straits of the country's economy.
Anti-government protesters are taking to the streets yet again, feeling the squeeze from plunging oil prices and soaring inflation. But President
Nicolas Maduro is cracking down hard on dissent and last week security forces arrested and jailed the mayor of Caracas who's seen here on the
left. He was accused of plotting to overthrow the government. And he joins the opposition figure Leopoldo Lopez, who's on the right of your
screen, who was thrown into jail a year ago. He's been denounced by Maduro as, quote, "a monster."
Lopez's wife, Lilian Tintori, is campaigning tirelessly for his release and she joins me now live from Caracas.
Lilian, welcome to the program. Your husband was taken in a year ago.
How is he holding up?
How is he doing?
LILIAN TINTORI, WIFE OF CARACAS MAYOR LEOPOLDO LOPEZ: Thank you, Christiane, for this opportunity. And thank you for sharing with your
audience the crisis in Venezuela, the violation of human rights in our country.
Leopoldo is upon all this violation of his human rights and one year in jail, he is (INAUDIBLE). He is shrunk (ph).
AMANPOUR: Can I play you something that President Maduro told me about Leopoldo when I asked him whether he would release him from jail. I
spoke to him last year and this is what he told me.
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NICOLAS MADURO, VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT (through translator): He created a road map to topple the legitimate government. He generated violence.
The prosecution's office and the tribunals acted.
And I gave full guarantees and he went to justice, protected by the state, because there were some extreme groups trying to kill him, to
generate a greater crisis and greater violence in the country. Thank God his parents, wife heard our voice and allowed him to be protected by the
state.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, Lilian, first he accuses him of trying to generate toppling the government and he says that you agreed that Leopoldo should
be, quote, "protected by the state."
TINTORI: No, that's not true. That was a lie. They lie Venezuelan people. That's another lie of the government of Maduro. We are really --
no. After one year, that Leopold is a political prisoner of Maduro and he sat in prison of contempt because Leopoldo Lopez is in jail for his words,
for his ideas, for want a better country, want a better Venezuela to all our people.
AMANPOUR: Lilian, how do you think this is going to end?
How do you see your husband being freed?
Because obviously the president feels under maximum pressure right now, the economy is taking, his poll numbers are tanking.
How do you think this is going to be resolved?
TINTORI: We need to continue. We are working a lot with fatius (ph), with discipline (ph). We need to continue to ask democratic leaders to ask
Maduro to release all the political prisoners, but not only that, to stop the repression, to stop the violence, to stop killing people.
Two days ago they killed one student, 14 years old, Kliverth Roa. We need to stop this. We are in a crisis, economic crisis, as you said. We
are in a social crisis and a political crisis. We are in upward humanity crisis. We need to stop this. I am full of hope that change is coming.
The change is coming. Dissent is not a crime. Protest is not a crime. Want and dream, a better country is not a crime.
AMANPOUR: You speak very eloquently and passionately. I want to know how it is to live in Venezuela right now with all the shortages. Tell me
about the economic crisis, how it affects you and everyday people.
TINTORI: It's difficult. It's really difficult. Not only because I have my husband in jail and my children, Manuela (ph), she's 5, asks me if
her father is going to die in prison. It's difficult. But more difficult is to (INAUDIBLE) every day. It's a challenge to find medicine. It's --
we live in fear. We really live in fear. We don't have security. We have 25,000 murders last year in Venezuela. We have 64 percent of (INAUDIBLE).
And we have right now in Venezuela 97 percent of impunity (ph). We don't have rule of law. All our powers are controlled for one person, that is
Maduro. That's the real -- that's the truth in Venezuela. There are not checks and balance in our powers. We -- I don't believe in the justice of
my country. But we mean to ask help and we need to continue working, fighting for freedom, for peace in Venezuela. We want peace. We want
progress. We want people and family live well live better because we are in a crisis right now. And always we want this as a political (ph)
constitutional and democratic change. The (INAUDIBLE) always said, my husband, yes, we want to change. Leopoldo is changing all because Leopoldo
denounced this regime, the Maduro regime, as anti-democratic, corrupt and inefficient regime. And that's why Leopoldo is in jail.
AMANPOUR: All right.
TINTORI: One year after everybody's a national feeling. We feel the same. We say the same of Leopoldo's (INAUDIBLE).
AMANPOUR: Lilian Tintori, thank you so much indeed for joining us, the wife of Leopoldo Lopez and tireless campaigner for his freedom.
And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and
Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.
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