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CNN TONIGHT
President Obama Battle Against ISIS; Denmark Shooter Swore Fidelity to ISIS Leader; Keeping America Safe; ISIS Beheads 21 Egyptian Christians in Libya
Aired February 16, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: That was interesting, wasn't it? You know what they say, it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game. Chris and I didn't play well, we sucked, right? But I want to say that it was an honor to play for Help at USA, the charity that we played for and for all the charities we played for, it was an honor to play for you.
Thank you so much.
Now on to more serious business now. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
This President's Day, President Barack Obama just back at the White House after a weekend away. And he's got a very full plate as worldwide terror takes center stage.
Egypt launching air strikes against ISIS targets in Libya. Revenge for the terrorists' slaughter of 21 Egyptian Christians.
That as 42,000 people in Demark mourn the victims of terror in Copenhagen this weekend. The sounds of gunfire as one of the attacks caught on tape obtained by the BBC.
That suspect shown at a boxing club two years ago apparently swearing allegiance to ISIS on his Facebook page just before the shootings.
Here in the home front, nearly 8 in 10 Americans want Congress to give President Obama authority to keep using military force against ISIS. But 57 percent disapprove of how he is handling the battle against them.
CNN's Pamela Brown is live for us tonight in Copenhagen, Athena Jones, live for us at the White House this evening.
Athena, I want to start with you. Let's talk about this new CNN poll. The numbers are out today. Americans are pretty unhappy with the way the president is handling the war against ISIS, aren't they?
ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are, Don. Good night. This is not good news for this White House. As you mentioned earlier, only 40 percent of the American public supports the president's handling of this war against ISIS, 57 percent disapprove. That indicates an American public that is worried, that is scared. We're seeing the ISIS atrocities in the headlines on an almost daily
basis today. Those 21 Egyptian Christians who were beheaded on a beach in Libya. We've of course also learned of the Americans who have been killed starting with James Foley, the journalist, and most recently Kayla Mueller, the aid worker.
So this is something that has the American people concerned. And that may be why we're seeing a slight uptick in the support for sending U.S. ground troops over to fight ISIS. Now 47 percent are in favor of doing that, 50 percent are opposed. Back in November those numbers were 43 percent in favor of ground troops, 55 percent opposed.
Of course I should mention to you that a long ground war is not something that the White House or Democrats in Congress want to see -- Don.
LEMON: Athena, talk to us about the latest on the Egyptian strikes against ISIS.
JONES: We know they're in retaliation for the beheading of these Coptic Christians, a sect of Christianity common in Egypt that the Egyptian government launched at least two air strikes against ISIS targets in eastern Libya. The foreign minister of Egypt told Erin Burnett a little while ago, they hit 10 targets that were related to training and storage facilities for ISIS. And so their thinking is that they're hoping that there wasn't a lot of collateral damage. These were targeted strikes on training facilities and storage facilities against ISIS. But clearly this war seems to be expanding -- Don.
LEMON: Athena Jones at the White House, stand by. I want to get to Pamela Brown now. She is in Copenhagen.
Pamela, what is -- what is the latest you're hearing about this gunman?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, here in Denmark, Don, authorities have said that they knew about the suspect, 21 -- 22-year- old, rather, Omar Al Husan because of his gang ties, because of the convictions he had with violent crimes. But it's becoming increasingly clear that he had extremist ties as well.
In fact just before the shootings here on Copenhagen, he apparently posted on his Facebook page a pledge of allegiance apparently to the leader of ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, before he went here behind me to this free speech event and opened fire, killing one person here and then going to a synagogue after that, killing one person there.
We learned today that he was just released from jail just a couple of weeks ago and there are indications that he grew increasingly radicalized in jail. We have heard this story before. There are similarities between what happened here and the Paris attacks, in fact the suspect there, Amedy Coulibaly, similar situation, radicalized in jail.
Don, people on the ground here say there is this growing problem of jihadists trying to recruit people like this suspect who have violent crime backgrounds, gang ties, in order for them to come over and join their cause -- Don.
LEMON: Pamela, you spoke with a woman inside the synagogue at the time of the shooting. What were you told?
BROWN: That's right. I spoke to Mette Bentow, she's very emotional because it was her daughter's bar mitzvah happening at the synagogue when the shooting took place. She said it was just about 1:00 in the morning. They were having a great time. All of a sudden someone ran in, said turn off the music, go downstairs into the basement, to the safe room. And she said that the children were upset.
No one knew what was going on for two hours. She said it was horrifying, and she got really emotional, especially talking about her friend Dan Uzan who was killed right outside the synagogue. Here's what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
METTE BENTOW, WITNESSED SYNAGOGUE SHOOTING: All I could think about was, of course, Dan, and his family and how are we going to show our gratitude and -- yes. So it was scary. And it was a very violent experience, as you would say in Danish.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: There have been folks who have said after the shooting that they wanted to leave Denmark. I asked her if she felt the same way, she said no, I'm Danish, and I am proud to be Danish, so I'm staying here -- Don.
LEMON: Pamela Brown, thank you very much. Athena Jones, as well.
I want to turn now to John Miller, the New York Police Department's deputy commissioner for Intelligence and Counterterrorism.
Thank you so much for joining us, especially on this -- on this holiday.
What are your sources telling you about the attacks in Copenhagen?
JOHN MILLER, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER FOR INTELLIGENCE AND COUNTERTERRORISM, NYPD: I think what we're seeing of the attacks in Copenhagen is what we've seen before. We're developing a model and that is, you know, you see a suspect emerge who is part criminal, part loser, part seeker, who is buying into this narrative.
And the narrative promises three things. It promises valor for somebody who feels that they're not being seen, they can be a hero. It promises belonging, to someone who's an outcast, that they can be a part of something. And it promises empowerment for somebody who feels that they're ostracized or isolated.
And that's reaching people on the margins. We know that from the three attacks that occurred in Canada in September, we know that from what we saw in Paris, particularly the second suspect that Pamela talked about, Coulibaly, who was a guy with a criminal background who just got out of prison, who met the other suspects there. But this is what we're seeing, Don.
LEMON: Yes. And so when you look at -- you mentioned Canada and you look at just in the last six weeks, what happened in Europe, very similar attacks, people are sitting at home on this holiday, preparing to go back to work tomorrow, wondering, are we next? Is this going to happen here? Are we a big target?
MILLER: So we are next. But remember, we're not next. We were first. Meaning, we had September 11th. We lost 3,000 people to a plot on U.S. soil, but that was an organized plot from the corporate structure of al Qaeda.
What we've seen since then is over 200 cases targeting terrorists of -- you know, on U.S. soil. And of those, probably 70 have involved plots against U.S. interests, mostly on U.S. soil, including plots against New York, and we've seen the -- we've seen the lone wolves. We've seen the people recruited online.
In New York City, we saw Zale Thompson, who was a guy who very much fits the model we talked about, Don, you know, a guy in the margins who is failing at everything. But he bought the narrative, he channeled his anger to it and he attacked the police officer with a hatchet and was killed by his partner.
LEMON: You used to work at the FBI and we know your job is now with the New York City Police Department. So what is going on inside the FBI, inside of our intelligence agencies and our security agencies now after this recent attack?
MILLER: Well, what's going on inside FBI is what's going on inside the New York City Police Department, is what's going on in the Los Angeles Police Department and my good friend Chief Downing out there, and their intelligence bureau. What they're all doing is, you know, they are trying to keep up with the information and the threats coming in, and they're trying to do the kind of triage which is, how do you sort out who's a loud mouth, who likes political speak with a tinge of violence, and who's really dangerous?
And as I'm sitting here talking to you right now, I have an office full of people who are sorting through those, really looking for what's the targeting package, who do we focus on? Who do we put aside? Because I think as you're seeing in Europe, there aren't enough people to cover every single threat that emerges on some levels. You have to figure out which are the ones that look serious.
LEMON: The NYPD tracking New Yorkers traveling to Syria, I would imagine, as you said, it's happening in Los Angeles, other police departments are doing the same as well. What are other precautions that are being taken?
MILLER: I think -- I think I just described it in that, you know, you can track them going, it's more important to track them coming back.
LEMON: Right.
MILLER: But what we're also looking for is, who is on the other end of this narrative, who looks like they're about to act on it.
LEMON: But that's -- it was tough for him, I would think, because we -- in some of the attacks that I've spoken to you about, we asked about intelligence failures. And you say, well, that -- it's depending how you look at it. This one was tough because he didn't pledge allegiance to ISIS until just shortly before the attack on Facebook. Would he have been someone that you were looking at?
MILLER: Don, you just put your thumb on the pulse of this problem which is the old model, which is that al Qaeda's headquarters would order a plot, that there was going to be an international conspiracy between the moving parts of a global terrorist organization. It gave us a lot of opportunities to pick that up and at some point stop it especially after 9/11 as it became a more intelligence-led venture, both on the federal side and the local side.
What you're looking at in the Canada attacks, in the Paris attacks, in what we've just seen in Copenhagen is something where there appears to be minimal preoperational planning, almost zero conspiracy with others, in a lot of these cases, Paris aside, and when a conspiracy is between a message coming over a laptop and the thoughts in someone's head, as an intelligence collector, it's hard to get in between that.
LEMON: Yes. If you can quickly because you know I'm up against the break, you know how this works. You've done this before. The White House is hosting a summit on counter violence -- counter violent extremism this week. Take us forward to that summit and what people will be talking about. Are you attending the summit?
MILLER: No. This is New York -- sorry. It's Los Angeles, Minneapolis, and Boston. They've had the marathon bombing city, L.A., where they're very deep into their community relations there, and Minneapolis where they have the Somali community. So the White House meeting this week is going to be the eureka moment where they say, government can't do this, how do we empower the community to get the counter-narrative that cuts through the terrorist narrative to say it's wrong, and do it with credibility. LEMON: John Miller, thank you.
MILLER: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Thank you so much.
We've got a lot more ahead here on CNN. When we come right back, eyewitness to terror. She was just beginning her speech in Copenhagen when shots rang out. Tonight she tells me her story.
Plus the trial of the man accused of killing the real-life "American Sniper." What a deputy overheard and what it might tell us about the motive for killing Chris Kyle.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: As a gunman stormed the cafe in Copenhagen, my next guest was addressing the crowd at the Free Speech Forum. The BBC obtained an audio recording in which Ina Shevchenko, excuse me, is speaking as shots are fired. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it is freedom of speech, but, and the turning point is but, why do we still say but when we --
(GUNFIRE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Unbelievable. And As I said, terrifying moments for those inside the cafe.
Joining me now exclusively is Ina Shevchenko, she was inside. And that was her speaking.
This must have been terrifying. So you stopped right away, as soon as you heard the gun shots?
INNA SHEVCHENKO, WITNESSED COPENHAGEN CAFE SHOOTING: Yes, that's right. I think that being -- in a way, being ready that something like this can happen, I just -- I think, developing the sense of being ready and expecting that any kind of attack can take place again and again.
Whenever we speak about freedom of speech, whenever we laugh at the drawings, whenever we protest (INAUDIBLE) in the street, we should be ready, we should accept new conditions for freedom of speech that we have today.
LEMON: Yes.
SHEVCHENKO: And just being ready, I think -- well, I was the first one who reacted because, of course, you definitely could see on faces of people, that nobody could expect that something like this could happen in Copenhagen even though we all --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: So what did you do? And what did everyone else do?
SHEVCHENKO: Well, once we heard shots, as you can hear, I stopped talking and the first thing was, you had thousand thoughts in your head. And you thought, is it a joke? Is it the sound of something else? Is it the fireworks? Or what that could be? But I immediately jumped under the stage. And I was on the floor, under the stage, and people started to try to hide themselves under the tables.
They were covering themselves with jacket, desperately trying to -- believing that this could protect them because the shots were continuing for so long just behind the door of the room where we were in. And then one of the -- one of the organizers of the event, opened the back door of the room, and people were chaotically running out in the street and in different directions. And we were screaming run, run, run, as the shots were continuing.
LEMON: I want to --
SHEVCHENKO: But well, the situation was really chaotic.
LEMON: I want to ask you because you were friends with the editor of "Charlie Hebdo." You're also a cartoonist. Lars Vilks was at the event with you and, you know, he has been known to do depictions of the Prophet Mohammed. He is now in hiding. But you -- did you think that your participation, I think you spoke and said, you thought that your participation may have had something to do with it? Do you think that you were the target?
SHEVCHENKO: You know, I think -- well, when I had been invited to this event, organizers informed me that they do -- they do think that the presence of Lars Vilks, my presence and generally the topic of the event that was freedom of speech, blasphemy and art, could be a reason for sort of provocations. And this is why they organized the security and protection.
But I think that we should not just -- right now we should not ask ourselves who personally has been an attraction to this attack, would have been an attraction. It's our ideas, it's the ideas that we were carrying. It's the support to pluralism and wish to celebrate freedom of speech.
LEMON: OK.
SHEVCHENKO: This is what had been attacked. Our ideas have been attacked.
LEMON: Ina Shevchenko, thank you. We're so glad that you're OK. We appreciate you joining us here on CNN.
I'm joined now by Robert Grenier. He's the former director of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center and author of "88 Days: The Kandahar: A CIA Diary." Also with us is Michael Weiss, a foreign policy and now Lebanon columnist, and also Lieutenant Colonel James Reese, CNN military analyst and retired Delta Force commander. And Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, CNN military analyst and former U.S. military attache to Syria.
Michael, an attack in Paris, arrests in Belgium, now an attack in Denmark. Saturday's attack was very similar to what we saw in Paris, an attack against free speech and then, you know, anti-Semitic attack. You heard what she just said. It was an attack against their ideas and their freedom of speech.
How severe is the ISIS threat in Europe particularly for Jews?
MICHAEL WEISS, CO-AUTHOR, "ISIS: INSIDE THE ARMY OF TERROR": Well, I mean, I think it's rather severe. You know, one of the problems is it's not just an ideologically motivated terrorist organization any longer. We're well beyond the post 9/11 period because one of the things ISIS is trying to do in spectacular fashion is one-up al Qaeda.
You know, al Qaeda still has these claims to fame of waging these spectaculars and, you know, committing attacks against Western targets. ISIS, which now rules an expansive territory roughly the size of Great Britain, does not want al Qaeda to steal its thunder. It considers itself the going jihadi concern on the planet right now.
So, you know, this competition, this game of one-upmanship is being played up in the streets of Europe. And I think eventually, I'm sorry to say, it will come to America as well.
LEMON: And you heard John Miller, the NYPD counterterrorism official here, saying, we've already been attacked, but yes, we are, you know, a target for another attack.
So, Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, the suspect in the Copenhagen attack, swore fidelity to ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi on his Facebook page, right before the shooting spree.
Do you think he is a lone wolf or do you think that he had strong ties to extremist groups like the Coulibaly brothers in Paris?
LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: This looks like self- radicalization. He was approaching prison. And then he went on the Internet so self-radicalization and meeting with other people, and this is a very dangerous precedent that we're seeing here. Because this could happen in any capital in Europe, any city in Europe, and as Michael says, it's going to come to the United States because we're no longer dealing with organized -- I'm sorry, organized terrorism.
Now we're doing -- anybody can sign up for this. Anybody with a computer has access to this radicalization. These ideas. And you notice that many of these attacks came right after ISIS told people to do this. So they do have a following and the people are adhering to that following.
LEMON: Well, speaking of coming right after, Robert, the perpetrator was recently released from prison. We see that in a number of -- some of these self-radicalized men and women. How can the intelligence better monitor radical groups in prison?
ROBERT GRENIER, AUTHOR OF "88 DAYS: THE KANDAHAR: A CIA DIARY": Well, I think it's like any sort of human intelligence target. You need to have people who are reporting to you from the inside. So it's a matter of turning people, having informants in these groups so that you can get a better idea as to who among them, if and when they are released, is actually going to take this ideology and try to bring it to a violent form.
LEMON: Colonel Reese, I want you to hold this thought, but I'm going to ask you the question now. I want our audience to think about it.
Considering what just happened, when you think about two attacks in Europe in just the last six weeks, can we avoid boots on the ground? That's the question. Think about that. Everyone, stay with me. Up next, ISIS extends the reach of its
savagery, beheading 21 Christians in Libya. Can the terror group be stopped?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: ISIS now taking its brutal campaign of terror into Libya. In the latest example of its savagery, it releases videos showing what it claims are 21 Egyptian Christians in Libya, being marched onto a beach where they are all beheaded.
Back with me now, Robert Grenier, Michael Weiss, Colonel -- James Reese, excuse me, Colonel Rick Francona, with me.
So, Colonel Reese, I asked you before the break, before we get to this latest ISIS execution video, that Egypt is striking back against, is there a way for the U.S. to avoid boots on the ground in that region at this point?
COL. JAMES REESE (RET.), FORMER U.S. DELTA FORCE OFFICE: Well, Don, there is what I'll call an economy of force for boots on the ground. We've already got them. We also know that sooner or later, we're going to have to help these Arab countries with some of the enablers and the special equipment and some of the strike capability that only the U.S. has and brings in.
And the president talked about it and we're prepared to do that. But we have to be able to prepared to do, it's great to see the Egyptians now, the Jordanians, the Arab coalition is going to meet in Egypt in a month to talk about these issues. We have to give them and help them continue to have the momentum. Once we gain the momentum, we want to just help them do that, so yes, we'll have an economy of force of boots on the ground eventually.
LEMON: But not everyone has the resources that the U.S. has. Egypt, for example, that's going to be tough.
REESE: Correct. And just like the Egyptians if they continue to do this, and retreat ISIS in Libya where ISIS wants it, it's a safe haven, we need to now, again, from the back side, give them logistics, give them some extra funding to help them accomplish that mission, which keeps us out of the way in direct combat.
LEMON: OK. Sticking with you, Colonel Reese, let's take a look -- let's talk about this latest ISIS execution video. What struck you as you watched this new brutal ISIS video?
REESE: Well, Don, for me, it's an apocalyptic franchise that's coming out of ISIS now. What I saw was, you know, when these guys came walking down the beach in their black robes, it brought us back to the early days of ISIS in Syria and into Iraq. But then you had the one leader, who's all dressed out in the camouflage, desert camouflage, which now we see ISIS in the Syria-Iraq theater now wearing that to show a more structured military outfit.
But it shows me ISIS is trying to push into Libya. They've got what I believe are mercenaries, for all the years of people fighting Gadhafi there. There's a lot of folks military age that don't have the money, they become mercenaries. And ISIS will develop them and use them to bring ISIS ideology into Libya and continue that fight.
LEMON: Robert, you say that this new video is part of a branding exercise. Why do you say that?
GRENIER: Well, I think that the extremists that we just saw depicted in that video were not people who traveled from Iraq or Syria. These were not people who were recruited as part of a vanguard with emissaries that came from ISIS. These are local extremists, people who may have links to go back to the previous fight in Iraq under Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, but people who are engaged in that fight inside Libya and who now want to take on the brand of ISIS. They don't just want to be local extremist. They want to be part of a global movement. That's essentially what they're proclaiming in that video.
LEMON: Michael, what message do you think that they're sending to Christians around the world?
WEISS: We're coming to get you. I mean, they've sent that message before in Iraq, haven't they? Look, you know, ISIS feels its campaign has -- has won against -- derange (ph) against what they call "the crusader Jewish conspiracy," the crusaders being the United States. The Jews being Israel and, you know, its assorted (ph) allies and such.
I think there's another message kind of embedded in this one, which is we are now what, a stone's throw away from E.U. territory, I mean, quite close to Crete and quite close to Italy. I mean, we're talking, you know, Northern Libya here. This is -- this is supposed to be terrifying. ISIS has always said that they -- their caliphate maybe -- may expand, you know, from Syria to Iraq, but they have global ambitions.
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi himself said, "If we're lucky, we'll conquer Rome and move on to Holland Haulage (ph) which is Spain. So, they have a presence in Yemen, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and indeed in Europe. I mean, the other thing that they do as they say, "If you guys, if you -- oh brothers, if you can't come join the -- the Jihad in Raqqa where Mosul, stay where you are, just stay where you are and perpetrate attacks. That's fine.
LEMON: Yeah.
WEISS: So, this is - you're going to see as ISIS-inspired attacks elsewhere.
LEMON: Colonel Frank (ph), you know, all arrows do seem to point back to Syria.
FRANCONA: Well, Syria is their headquarters right now is the basis of the caliphate and that seems to be where the direction is coming from. That's why al Baghdadi issues these proclamations that many of his followers adhere to. So, there's -- this is getting worse as we see this diversification of ISIS throughout the region. It's not just -- and it's not limited to the Arab World. We're seeing this happened in Afghanistan as well. We're seeing members of the Taliban switching their religions from the Taliban to ISIS. We see people in Yemen switching religions from AQAP to ISIS.
So, this is -- this is an expanding problem and what has to expand is the activities against it, and as Colonel Reese said, this meeting in Egypt which is the first step. But this requires immediate action, concentrated action on the part of the coalition. The coalition cannot -- no -- can no longer be bound by operations in Iraq and Syria. We've got to address this wherever it is.
The new (ph) authorization for Military force has to address that and -- and to Michael point about, you know, the threatening of Rome, that was -- that was not only literal, but also symbolic. It's talking about Europe, talking about and Christendom...
LEMON: Yeah.
FRANCONA: ... and -- and at some point, they're going to go after a NATO country, and I think that's going to be yet another step that we have to deal with. It almost seems like ISIS is doing the coalition building for us.
LEMON: Colonel Reese, quickly I may -- up against (ph) the break, I want to know why you said -- you said that you believe that ISIS is using Islam as a crutch. Explain that.
JAMES REESE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Don, I do. I mean, most of these people coming in, we've seen that, you know, online they're buying, you know, Islam for dummies. They're trying to -- there -- there is a small element of it, Abu Bakr. They'll use that, but I don't think they're using that as their major piece. I think is a lot of it, it's got to do with economy.
LEMON: Gentlemen, thank you very much. When we come back right back, George (ph) in a Texas courtroom here, the videotape confession of a man accused of murdering American Sniper, Chris Kyle, next, with Eddie Ray Routh told police.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The movie "American Sniper" is up for six Oscars, but the real- life drama is taking place in a Texas courtroom where today the jury heard the accused killer, Eddie Ray Routh, taped confession. CNN's Ed Lavandera has more.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT IN DALLAS BUREAU: In the videotape confession from two years ago, Eddie Ray Routh looks far different than he does today. He's dressed in the same clothing he wore to the gun range when he shot and killed Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield.
One of the investigators says, he even notices blood stains on Routh's boots. This was recorded after Routh surrendered to police after a car chase in a few hours after the killings. Routh starts with a rambling and incoherent answer when he's asked what happened. He says, "I keep talking to Chris, there's a few dozen Chrises in my world. And it's like every time I talk to another man named Chris or get sent to another man named Chris, it was like talking to the wolf, you know, the ones in the sky or the ones that fly, you know what I mean, the pigs."
Routh then becomes obsessed with talk of his soul. "You can't just keep letting people eat your soul up for free, you know. It's not what it's about. It's about having a soul that you have in you for yourself and there are tons of people that are eating on my soul right now." The detective asked, "Who did you shoot first?" And Routh says, "The one I could clearly identify." He's talking about Chris Kyle here. "I knew if I did not take out his soul, he was coming to take mine next."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was in the grip up of a psychosis. A psychosis so severe at that point in time that he did not know what he was doing was wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: The interrogation video lasts nearly 90 minutes. Routh complains about the handcuffs being uncomfortable. He's left alone and tries to put on a pair of glasses. He asked to speak with his mother, asked for a cigarette and when he doesn't get one pops up, doesn't anyone smoke anymore.
The investigator asked Routh, "After you killed them, what did you do next?" Routh responds, "I fled, I didn't know what else to do. My adrenaline was so high. I didn't know what was right, I didn't know what was wrong. I mean, I know what was right now." The investigator would come back to this nearly a half dozen times leaving Routh alone and then coming back to ask him repeatedly if he knew that killing Kyle and Littlefield was wrong.
After first answering, he didn't know, each time after that, Routh says, he knew it was wrong. The detective then asked Routh what he would like to tell the victims' families. "I would tell them I'm sorry for what I've done." The prosecutors say the tape proves Routh knew what he was doing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mental illnesses, even the ones that this defendant (ph) may or may not have, don't deprive people from the ability to be good citizens, to know right from wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LAVANDERA: And Don, because this is an insanity case, the question of whether or not Eddie Ray Routh knew what he did was right or wrong is the central issue and that's why this videotape confession is such a crucial piece of evidence. It will take this jury to the closes possible moment to that day, February 2, 2013, so that they can see and hear and judge for themselves and study his state of mind and his demeanor and draw their own conclusions. LEMON: Thinking of that the present we saw him as he is being
interviewed by police in a confession, but how was Eddie Routh responding in court, Ed?
LAVANDERA: You know, you can tell just from that videotape is how much he's changed physically in the last two years. But I saw him today, he had several conversations with his attorney but really what kind of stands out is what we've seen in the last four days, Don, is that he just -- he's constantly taking notes. We don't know what he's writing or -- or exactly what he's taking down, but he's kind of been deliberately even taking notes constantly throughout this entire trial.
LEMON: Ed, Lavandera, thank you very much for that.
Coming up, how will the videotape confession impact the outcome of the American Sniper trial? Our judges will weigh in next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Confession video was played in the American Sniper trial today, but the case is far from over. So, let's see what my judges have to say about it. Joining me now is Judge Mablean Ephriam, author and TV Judge on Justice with Judge Mablean and Judge Belvin Perry, former chief judge who presided over the Casey Anthony trial.
I have a lot to get to. So but -- let me read this because the court watched the 90-minute confession, you saw that, from Eddie Ray Routh that happened after the murders of Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield, and at one point, Routh was asked what he told his sister following the murders and he's what he said. The answer thus he said, "I told her I had to kill men today. It wasn't a want to. It was a need. I had to, to get out -- to get out of that situation I was in today."
Routh also said later in the confession. He said this, "I knew if I did not take out his soul, he was coming to take mine next." So, Judge Perry, Jesus (ph). This is (ph) Eddie Ray Routh this (ph) -- that's him in his own words. Does that sound like an insane person to you?
BELVIN PERRY, FORMER CHIEF JUDGE: It sounds like a person who is deeply disturbed. A person who may be in a psychosis, but the other side of the coin, Don, is the fact that he had been drinking, and he had been doing marijuana laced with maybe a formaldehyde. The question comes up is, is he malingering also, or is he suffering from a psychosis? It's not clear-cut (ph) at this time. OK
LEMON: So, following a string of bizarre comments from Routh, he was asked -- do you want to weigh in on that, judge? Because I have a quote for you, but go ahead.
JUDGE MABLEAN EPHRIAM, AUTHOR AND TV JUDGE ON JUSTICE WITH JUDGE MABLEAN: I think what it is -- what it says about him is that he's going through and when he brings up the point about the drinking and the narcotics, that is voluntary. So, we remove that and then the question is, "Was he crazy, or was he going through a psychosis, or does -- does he have a mental condition?"
I -- when I read the account of his statements and his confession, I said to myself, I don't think the prosecution -- that's really in the prosecution's favor.
LEMON: You don't -- why not?
EPHRIAM: I really don't think. I think clearly -- I think it clearly shows that the man was deranged. One minute he's talking about, I had to get them before he came to get my soul. What are you talking about? He came to get my soul? And I had to get that, Chris before he came to me because I knew he'd come to me. It's like he -- what he's -- he believes that someone was after him. That's the after-effects of war. He thinks he's still at war. And that's he...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK. One more quote here -- one more quote here. He says -- he said, "I fled, I didn't know what else to do. My adrenaline was so high. I didn't know what was right and what was wrong. Well, I know what was right now. I let you know." Range of (inaudible) and then he says, "You know what they did today was wrong? You understand that?" And Routh says, "Yes, sir."
So, he never denied anything after the murders in this confession. So, how do you think that is going to play out in the jury's decision? Judge Perry?
PERRY: Well, it's going to play, but you got to look at some of the other statements he made. He made the statement; I shot them because they would not talk to me. He also talked about the fact that he basically ambushed and killed them. They did not know that they were being assassinated. So, those are going to be factors that the jury's going to have to look and balance that against his bizarre behavior. And the question is going to bore down when the shrinks talk about whether or not there is any evidence that he is faking his sickness greater than what his sickness is.
LEMON: OK. The court...
EPHRIAM: Well -- well, he's...
LEMON: Go ahead, judge.
EPHRIAM: He said I have -- but I -- then he also talked about every time there's a Chris in my life and then there's another Chris, and there's another Chris. So, he has a psychosis of these Chris people and he said, "I had to get them before they got me because he believed that he was being attacked." So, there are a number of ways to look at his testimony. Then he started talking about the pigs in the sky and -- and all kind of stuff that made absolutely no sense even to the point that the detective said, "Oh, he's inaudible. He's making no sense, I don't understand what he's talking about."
And so he's sitting there talking to him and say, "He's really not making sense now," and the stuff he's saying is mumbo-jumbled and I don't know what he's talking about. He's gone off of something else and then he walks out the room and leaves them, of course, and comes back in and so the tape is so, you know, he talks to him in one (ph) minute, he leaves, he comes back. So, you don't know -- this is not a continuous conversation.
LEMON: OK, let's talk about -- these are -- these are conversations...
(CROSSTALK)
EPHRIAM: And never do you have him saying, I killed -- these are questions being put to him. And where did you shoot them and when did you shoot them and, you know. So, he now shoots (ph) them...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Let's talk about his state of mind before that -- before he was -- before he did the shooting. Because today in court they also heard the voice mails that were left on Chris Kyle's phone from the killer Eddie Ray Routh.
OK, so one of the messages he left before the shooting, it was particularly strange and here's what he said, he says, so this is a voice mail, then I guess this is an answer (ph). He says, "We're just going to call you to talk to you about this dreary day we're having." You know, it's kind of a -- it's kind of a sad day when it rains. It's a good sad. Rain will come and rains will leave. I guess that's what they do. All right, talk to you later, bye."
What do you think...
(CROSSTALK)
PERRY: That can be a classic example of someone in a mood swing because of alcohol and alcohol intoxication will cause people to go to sad moods. The bottom-line in this whole thing is whether or not he knew the difference between right and wrong. There's going to be no question that he suffered from a mental illness at some time during this. But at the time of the homicide, whether or not he knew what he was doing was wrong.
LEMON: But considering the confessions and the voice mail, how could he not be ruled insane, Judge Mablean?
EPHRIAM: You know, that's what I'm saying, based upon what I read of the confession, because we didn't hear it all. I don't see any way you could not say this man is insane. Clearly, he did not make a complete sentence that made sense. And when he answered, "Yes, I knew it was right or wrong," that's the detective leading.
What did you know it was right then or did you not know it was right? Well, what did you tell your sister? A confession is, look, "I was out on the range, we were shooting the gun, I decided that something happened and I shot those people and now I'm sorry and I realize I shouldn't have." But this man is not saying that. He's being-he's, you know, he's being led to answer certain statements and there are moments of lucidity. And then the most of it is... (CROSSTALK)
LEMON: You think he's being coerced?
EPHRIAM: And I don't think -- no, not coerced, but he's being -- the question is leading.
LEMON: Leading the way...
EPHRIAM: But when you ask a leading question, you get the answer that you want.
LEMON: Considering...
EPHRIAM: ... because that's what the detective was doing. That's how he got the, quote, "confession," him saying, I knew it was wrong.
LEMON: Less than 30 seconds left here, Judge Perry. Considering all the attention that's going to be devoted to "American Sniper" this weekend, Six Oscars, you presided over the Casey Anthony trial. How much is this attention is in -- how much is that going to influence what's happening in that courtroom if at all?
PERRY: Well, it shouldn't influence what's going to happen in the courtroom. Hopefully, the jury is -- is not watching any of the coverage and listening to us debate these...
LEMON: All right.
PERRY: ... issues tonight.
LEMON: That's going to happen.
PERRY: So, it shouldn't have any effect...
(CROSSTALK)
EPHRIAM: Let me handle with that (ph)...
(CROSSTALK)
PERRY: ... impact on the general public.
LEMON: That's it. Thank you, judges. I appreciate it.
Coming up, the alternative to shoot to kill, the hi-tech innovation that could save suspects' lives.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Police officers sometimes have just a split second to decide whether to use lethal force on a suspect. But a high-tech innovation may give them another option. Sara Sidner has more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the alternative.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The free (ph) to last...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's like an airbag for a bullet.
SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It looks like a toy that attaches to a real gun, but it is nothing to play with. The new device is intended to give a suspect one last chance to live.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The free (ph) to last...
SIDNER: The new device is intended to give a suspect one last chance to live.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put the knife down, sir!
SIDNER: When police decide the situation is dangerous enough to use lethal force.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's lethal, that's lethal, bang (ph).
It's actually created by a retired sheriff officer and he did not like the fact that people were being shot when the officers do have time, but they had no other option than lethal force.
SIDNER: The makers say, "It's not to be used in split-second decisions but only when an officer has three seconds or more to react.
What does it do to the body?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's going to feel like getting hit in the chest by a major league baseball player with a hammer.
SIDNER: The bullet emerges with the metal bulb which travels about one-fifth the speed of a regular bullet.
Can it could definitely break. I mean, could it kill you or not?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There -- it -- it absolutely could but we know a bullet kills you. There is a possibility that this could kill you but it is very slight when you compare that to a bullet.
SIDNER: CEO Christian Ali (ph) said, after nine years in development, it's ready.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE/FEMALE: No fee (ph).
SIDNER: It comes as police across the country face intense scrutiny and protest over the killings of unarmed suspects. So far, there is only one police department in America that has decided to test the device. Ferguson, Missouri. Yes, that Ferguson. The department that became the catalyst for nationwide protests against police tactics, after its officer shot to death unarmed teenager, Michael Brown.
Why is Ferguson looking at this device? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is something that we just happened to run
across especially considering the out -- outcry about saving lives. Even lives of people that you're trying to apprehend but this might be something that was worth looking into.
SIDNER: But some former law enforcement officers have huge reservations about it, saying it could do more harm than good, especially to officers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These situations escalate virtually instantaneously. If you had such a device available, to be quite frank with you, you could not transition to lethal force fast enough to save your life.
SIDNER: The makers of the alternative say their tests shows otherwise. The device only works for the very first shot intended to stop, not kill a suspect. But if that doesn't work, the gun is ready to fire lethal rounds in a split second.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything disengages from the weapon and the officer is ready to go with his bullets or her bullets when need.
SIDNER: However, the device has not been tested in real-life situations on human beings. With the outcry over police tactics...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE/FEMALE: Demand on (ph)...
SIDNER: For now, it's just an alternative, but in the future, it just might save a life. Sara Sidner, CNN, San Diego, California.
LEMON: Sara, thank you very much.
I'm Don Lemon. That's it for us tonight. Thank you for watching. I'll be back here tomorrow night. AC360 starts right now.
