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NANCY GRACE
American Sniper Murder Trial Day 2
Aired February 12, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Texas suburbs. The trial of the man who guns down the nation`s hero known as the American sniper
commences. Bombshell tonight. We obtain damning dashcam video of police chasing down the man who allegedly murders the American sniper. We have
the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Kyle already knew in the truck that Eddie was having issues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "This dude is straight-up nuts."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eddie Routh killed Kyle and his best friend at a gun range.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says that he killed two guys. They went out to a shooting range. It`s like he`s all crazy. He`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
psychotic!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.
Bombshell tonight, live to Texas suburbs. The trial of the man who guns down the nation`s hero known as the American sniper -- trial commences.
Bombshell tonight. We obtain the damning dashcam video of police chasing down the man who allegedly murders the American sniper. We have the video
for you.
Now, the American sniper, Chris Kyle, known by our enemies as "the devil," known by his fellow combatants in the military as "the legend" -- his wife
appearing in court, grasping his dogtags throughout her entire ordeal on the stand. Reports she goes nowhere without them. There you see Taya
still declaring to this day, I still am in love with him.
Let`s go straight to the courthouse. Standing by, Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent. Martin, tell me what`s happening and the significance of
this damning dashcam video. I mean, come on, Martin. If this guy did not know what he did was wrong, why is he trying to elude police? Let`s see
the video. Martin?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That`s exactly -- that`s exactly the point the police are making, the prosecution here, by showing this video.
And that is, if the defense is saying that he was out of his mind, he didn`t know what he was doing, then why was he fleeing police, as he is in
the video that was played?
The video is the star witness of testimony in day two of this trial. And it is not just the dashcam video. There is also bodycam video from a
police sergeant that was on the scene. This is, remember, several hours after the shooting took place. It`s when now the suspect is fleeing in
Kyle -- Chris Kyle`s pickup truck, one of his victims.
Eddie Ray Routh is spotted. He`s in the yard of his home in that pickup truck when police begin to engage him. On the bodycam video, you can hear
-- although that is not allowed to be transmitted -- the police begging with him to surrender.
Then you see on the dashcam video as that massive pickup truck -- it`s a Ford F-350, it`s like a tank -- takes off with police chasing. Eventually,
another police car rams the front end. It does enough damage to the engine that some few miles down the road, the car eventually gives up. But the
speeds at some point were said to over 100 miles per hour.
GRACE: And isn`t it true, Martin Savidge, that the police finally have to throw down spikes? You throw down the spikes and the car that`s eluding
you goes over them and it flats the tires?
SAVIDGE: It was even more dramatic than that, Nancy. As the police were engaging him when he stopped, there are two other officers that crawl up on
their bellies with those stop sticks, as they are called, and lay them in place. Would have been disastrous if he had moved. But then they retreat,
so that when he does roar off, at least there is some damage that`s done to the tires as he tries to escape, Nancy.
GRACE: Now, tell me that again. So police officers get down on their stomachs and Army crawl to lay out the spikes?
SAVIDGE: Because they knew, even as they were engaging the suspect, trying to get him to surrender, there was still the great possibility he might
flee. So they wanted to cover all the bases, and one of those was try to knock that vehicle out.
GRACE: Everybody, I want to see this chase again. With me at the courthouse is Martin Savidge, bringing us the latest from the courtroom.
You`re seeing it exactly as the jury is. There you see in this car, Eddie Ray Routh, age 27, military vet. He is in the American sniper, Chris
Kyle`s, black Ford F-350, leading police on a wild chase, speeds over 100 miles an hour. As you can see, the, police have tried to clear the
roadway, and they are in hot pursuit.
This guy claiming he was insane. Well, you know, what? He knows enough to run from the police. Check it out. Police on his tail, on his tail, on
his tail, chasing Eddie Ray Routh, trying to get him to stop.
Now, I don`t know about you, but I see a cop behind me with the blue light on, I stop. Not this guy. He knows he did something horribly wrong. And
according to the police, what he did was gun down a defenseless Chris Kyle, American sniper, and his friend, Chad Littlefield, after Kyle and
Littlefield are good Samaritans to take him and help him, Eddie Ray Routh.
Now, Martin Savidge, explain to me again the significance of this dashcam video.
SAVIDGE: Well, the real significance is the blow that it could deliver to the defense of the insanity plea because under that plea, at least in the
state of Texas, you have to be able to prove that you did not know what you were doing. Clearly, if you are fleeing from police when police had
engaged you, talked to you, said, Surrender, give up, and then you race away from them, it would imply that you knew you had done something wrong,
there were consequences, and you were trying to escape the consequences. It`s a major blow to the defense.
GRACE: Now, tell me again how they finally got him to stop.
SAVIDGE: Essentially, they first approach him -- they believe it`s around 6:00 o`clock in the afternoon. Then they see him again at his home. It`s
about 9:00 o`clock now. They begin talking for maybe 30 minutes in the front of his house as he`s in Kyle`s pickup truck...
GRACE: Now, wait a minute! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!
SAVIDGE: ... but he eventually takes off.
GRACE: Marty, hold on. Hold on. So they get a call from the gun range. The people that own the gun range have found the bodies of American sniper,
Chris Kyle, and his friend, Chad Littlefield. They call the police. Police track down Routh. Police come up to him. And this is after he`s
already gone to his sister`s house, said, I sold my soul. I killed two people for this truck out here. And he`s actually got in his possession
Chris Kyle, the American sniper`s, Marine weapon, right?
SAVIDGE: Right. And that is...
GRACE: Excuse me, his SEALs weapon. And he`s got his Navy SEALs weapon. It`s given to Navy SEALs. It`s a Sig Sauer 226. He`s got Chris`s weapon!
So police try to talk to him, talk to him, talk to him, coax him out of the car, and somehow, he eludes police. How did that happen, Martin?
SAVIDGE: He just takes off. He steps on the gas, and it`s a big, powerful truck. That is a huge vehicle, a crew cab. And once he`s off and going,
the police are clearly chasing him. And there is one dramatic point where another officer in a Crown Vic rams, or attempts to ram, the front end on
the side.
GRACE: I saw that!
SAVIDGE: He`s going after the engine. He does enough damage that, apparently, down the road, the vehicle eventually comes to a stop...
GRACE: Hold on. We`re going to show that.
SAVIDGE: ... and that`s when police move in.
GRACE: We`re going to show that, what you`re talking about, Marty. I was going to ask you -- everyone, with me at the courthouse is Martin Savidge.
The jury just saw this video. But at the beginning -- OK, watch this, watch this. Hold on. Bam!
All right, Martin Savidge. Who plows into Eddie Ray Routh? Who is that?
SAVIDGE: Well, it`s another police officer. His name is mentioned in court. I`ve got it in my notes. But it`s essentially another Crown Vic.
And this man decides, Look, he is a danger in this truck. He`s a fleeing suspect. It`s already known he`s suspected of killing two people. He`s
insinuated to officers he may kill more. So they`ve got to do something to stop him.
This officer takes his vehicle and rams the front end, and that is believed to be a heroic move that eventually is what stopped it down the road and
allowed for him to be taken into custody.
GRACE: You know what, Martin? I`m going to go back through the transcript because I want to hear that cop`s name. I don`t know his name, either, and
we`ve been listening and watching testimony all day. This is a police officer, in his own way, trying to stop Eddie Ray Routh. And he risks his
own life.
That`s the same thing we drove when I was a prosecutor. The county cars were Crown Vics. They`re huge, a Crown Victoria. He risks his own life.
Let`s see the video where the police officer at the beginning slams into Eddie Ray Routh. Watch this. Bam!
He risks his own life to try to stop this guy, plowing into his car, really driver`s side first. Now, most times on the road, you see a Ford F-150.
That is Ford 350. It`s humongous! It`s a monster truck, as Martin was just telling you. So they finally get the guy.
Now, another thing that`s happening, Martin, is that the jury is hearing the bodycam, as I call it. There you see -- look, they say, Put your arms
up. Get on the ground. He knows exactly what`s going on.
Now, take me from the beginning of this story, Martin. For those of you just joining us, Martin Savidge at the courthouse, the trial of the man
accused of gunning down an American hero, the American sniper, known as "the legend." Here is Chris Kyle on his wedding day.
Take it from the beginning, Martin. How did this whole thing commence?
SAVIDGE: Well, it began with Chris Kyle himself, who was, of course, a decorated Marine, a Navy SEAL. But when he got out of military, one of the
things he did to give back was to help other veterans of Iraq And Afghanistan deal with PTSD. And that is how he came in touch with Eddie
Ray Routh.
And the way that he often would reach out to these former combatants was to take them out onto a gun range. It was a good place for men to have
conversation and to connect. And so it was him and Chad Littlefield, his best friend, that took Eddie Ray Routh that day to what was supposed to be
a day of talk and a day of shooting. Instead, it turns out, according to the authorities, that Eddie Ray Routh turns the guns on him, that is, and
killed both men, and then took off in that stolen pickup truck.
GRACE: Now...
SAVIDGE: By the way, Nancy, the name of the officer that made that strike with his vehicle -- he was identified in court as Officer Grimes (ph) of
the Lancaster PD.
GRACE: Officer Grimes, Lancaster PD, another hero. Whoa! You just showed it again for me, Justin. Thank you. Risking his own life to stop this
guy.
Now, Martin, I know how you don`t like to argue with me about the law, all right? So I just want to clear a few things up. The defense here is PTSD,
post-traumatic stress syndrome, right?
SAVIDGE: Right. They`re claiming the insanity defense because of PTSD, yes.
GRACE: All right. Now, I`ve done an extensive review way into the evening of Texas law. And in Texas, they follow the old McNaughton (ph) rule,
which many jurisdictions do, brought over to our country from Great Britain. It`s old common law. Which means you must, in order to be
insane, not know what you did at the time of the incident was wrong. You must not know right from wrong at the time of the incident.
And in Texas, you must be essentially in the throes of a dissociative incident, like a flashback of sorts, where you are completely dissociated
from reality. That`s the only way your PTSD is going to rise to insanity.
But isn`t it true, Martin Savidge, that after he guns down Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield -- who both, by the way, have their guns in their belts,
OK? They didn`t see it coming. He leaves in the American sniper`s Ford 350. He drives through Taco Bell, orders two bean burritos very calmly,
enjoys his meal, stops by his sister`s house and then goes, I sold my soul to the devil for a new truck. Check it out, and starts talking about his
getaway plan to Oklahoma.
Now, Martin, are you telling me the defense is he was what, crazy at the time of the shooting, and then 30 minutes later, he was fine at Taco Bell?
SAVIDGE: And that is exactly what the defense is going to maintain. It`s the prosecution laying it out now. And you`re absolutely right, Nancy.
They are trying to show you that in every step of the way, in the way that the shootings took place to the way that he tried to elude law enforcement,
that it was clear Eddie Ray Routh was not out of his mind, that he was quite sane and he knew exactly what he was doing. That`s the prosecution.
The defense still has to make their case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said he killed two guys at a shooting range.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Kyle already knew in the truck that Eddie was having issues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a protector, always has been.
911 OPERATOR: Did he make any threats towards y`all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he didn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just -- he just finally snapped, I`d reckon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: At this hour, we are at the courthouse bringing you the latest in the trial that has just commenced in the shooting death of the American
sniper. We`re talking about Chris Kyle and his friend, Chad Littlefield, both gunned down in their effort to help another vet, that vet Eddie Ray
Routh. His defense at trial, PTSD, post-traumatic stress syndrome.
To Jim DeFelice, joining me in addition to Martin Savidge at the courthouse -- Jim DeFelice, co-author, "American Sniper" -- Jim, amidst all of the
hoopla surrounding the Warner Bros. movie, "American Sniper" -- let`s see a quick clip of that please, Justin. Who is American sniper? Who is Chris
Kyle? You co-authored the book with him.
JIM DEFELICE, CO-AUTHOR, "AMERICAN SNIPER": You know, Nancy, I have to say that if I had created a fictional character that was as helpful to his
neighbors, as much of a family man as Chris Kyle and yet also a sniper, and you know, a really effective SEAL, you would think that I was making up a
fictional character.
Chris Kyle was a larger-than-life man on the battlefield and he was a larger-than-life person in people`s hearts. You talk to any of the people
who grew up with him, any of his neighbors, and Chris was the guy who went across the street, and you know, cut the old lady`s lawn when -- you know,
when nobody else did.
GRACE: Hey, guys, we`re showing you video from "American Sniper" from Warner Bros.
Hold on. I`ve got Martin Savidge back in my ear. Martin, you`re there at the courthouse. How is the jury responding to everything that they`re
seeing? And tell me what you can observe about Eddie Ray Routh in court.
SAVIDGE: Eddie Ray Routh has been very active taking notes. I mean, I`m only getting to see him from the back, but he constantly seems to be
hunched over and taking copious notes. There are times where he looks at the video, and a few times he makes eye contact with the various people
that are on the witness stand. But otherwise, I don`t know what he`s writing, be he -- he`s writing very heavily.
And then the jury -- they`re just -- obviously, they were rapt by Taya`s whole testimony that she gave yesterday. It was very emotional. And then
they`re watching the videos very closely again today.
yes, that other point you pointed out -- and that was the testimony from this morning about how both men -- and I`m talking about Chris Kyle and
Chad -- they had guns in their waistband. They were loaded. But apparently, what happened happened so quickly, they could not even get to
them to defend themselves. And this again goes to the prosecution`s point, this must have been planned.
GRACE: Well, another thing, Martin -- I mean, if you look at the wounds to the two victims -- and I`m talking about American sniper Chris Kyle and his
friend, Chad Littlefield -- they were shot in the back of the head -- the back of the head, the side of the head, the back, the hand. This is
clearly an ambush.
And these guys had gone out to this shooting range as a way to kind of help Eddie Ray Routh, to talk to him, to bond to him after Routh`s mother begged
Chris Kyle to help her son, please help her son. And he was so moved by the mother, he wanted -- wanted to help her.
So Martin, tell me, what is the jury doing as they`re staring at Routh? And let me point out, Martin -- and I`m not trying to trap you in a legal
argument again. But Martin, he, Routh, was exhibiting all this anti-social and criminal behavior before he was ever even in the military, I mean,
killing animals, little animals, stating he liked to hear them take their last breath, you know, bothering little children in the neighborhood,
throwing rocks at them, all sorts of odd anti-social and criminal behavior before he was in the military, which in my mind totally torpedoes his claim
of post-traumatic stress syndrome in the military.
SAVIDGE: Correct. That`s what others have pointed out. They say, Wait a minute. It seems that the issues that he may have been suffering mentally
or otherwise began before he even was exposed to any kind of military action.
The jury has been watching him. The interesting thing to note is just how much he has physically changed. He looks vastly different from the time
when he was first taken into the custody when this all a occurred, a transformation. And now he looks very studious. He looks normal for a man
who allegedly was out of his mind.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was recently diagnosed with PTSD.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... murder trial of Eddie Ray Routh. He`s accused of killing American sniper Chris Kyle and his friend, Chad Littlefield. Kyle
was considered the most lethal sniper in United States military history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live at the courthouse bringing you the latest in the trial that has just commenced. It kicked off with the wife of American sniper
Chris Kyle on the stand, grasping his dogtags as she breaks down in tears, recalling her last conversation with him.
To Jim DeFelice, co-author of "American Sniper." He authored the book with Chris Kyle. You know, Jim, with the trial and the hoopla surrounding the
movie, I think it`s easy to forget what Chris Kyle did for our country. And all of you military vets, all of you families, daughters, sons, wives,
husbands of military vets, you know what I`m talking about, what this means to have some risk their lives for us.
You`re seeing the movie "American Sniper" for Warner Bros. Jim DeFelice, what did the American sniper, Chris Kyle, do for our country?
DEFELICE: Well, just to summarize for you, Nancy, because otherwise, it would take all day -- he had five Bronze Stars for valor and two Silver
Stars, a lot of other medals, but they don`t give those things out for -- you know, for going to the grocery store.
But you know, the thing about Chris, what Chris did when he came home, in ones and twos, before he was famous -- he helped veterans, informally
mostly, just by, you know, going on a retreat with them, visiting the hospital, just talking to them, making somebody who had lost the use of his
legs, his arms, feel human again.
That`s -- Chris helped so many people in so many ways that, you know, his loss, I think, affects us every day. Now, once he was famous, he actually
-- he took -- was starting -- was in the process of starting, you know, a foundation to formally do and to do on a much larger scale the things that
he had always done informally. And...
GRACE: Jim, I want the viewers to hear about the numbers of missions he went on as a sniper.
DEFELICE: Well, he would go -- he had four six-month deployments in Iraq. And you know, obviously, it would vary, but they would go on one, two or
three missions a night sometimes for weeks and weeks, take two or three days off, then go back out and do it again, do it again, do it again.
Chris -- at the battle of Fallujah, Chris manned his gun for several days straight and just never leaving his post except to sleep. And you can see
his sniper post was actually a bed where he slept.
You know, the thing that not just Chris but all of the SEALs did is just, you know, we weren`t there because for militaries reasons but it was just
incredible.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Kyle already knew in the truck that Eddie was having issues.
TIM MOORE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This dude is straight up nuts.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Eddie Routh killed Kyle and his best friend at a gun range.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said that he killed two guys. They went out to a shooting range. It`s like, he`s all crazy. He`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
psychotic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Not necessarily. The man who guns down American sniper, Chris Kyle, and his friend Chad Littlefield claims he`s insane
because of post-traumatic stress syndrome but here`s the real deal. He was having criminal aggressive anti-social incidents before he was ever even in
the military. And as we hear opening statements, the prosecution says this guy never even saw action.
The guy claiming military post-traumatic stress syndrome, Eddie Ray Routh? Well, when he went to Haiti he, quote, "never got off the ship." He was
even never on land. When he was in Iraq he was in a green area, never saw battle. Never.
But his defense to gunning down the American hero, a man who risked his life for us, is post-traumatic stress syndrome due to the military and
there he is. Looking like an investment banker in front of this jury. That`s not the way he looked the night he gunned two guys unsuspectingly.
They still had their guns in their belt at the shooting range.
Take a listen to this 911 call. After he guns them down he drives through Taco Bell. We`re going to have Robert Wilonsky tell you about that, from
the Dallas Morning News. Then he goes to his sister`s house. Kicks back and says, I sold my soul for a new truck. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911, what`s your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, my brother just came by here. I was -- he`s now left. He told me that he`s committed a murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Hold on --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I`m terrified for my life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I don`t know if he`s going to come back here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who did he say he -- he had killed?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says that he killed two guys. They went out to a shooting range and he -- like he`s all crazy. He`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
psychotic. I`m sorry for my language.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, you`re --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know if he`s on drugs or not. But I know that he`s been -- let me talk -- my husband is going to talk to you because
I`m so nervous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Go ahead and tell me what he said.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said he killed two guys at a shooting range.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he make any threats towards you all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. He didn`t. I didn`t perceive anything as a threat but he was talking kind of babble.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you all think he`s been drinking or any drugs? Is he known do that in the past?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I -- yes, he`s been known to drink in the past. He`s recently diagnosed with PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he`s been acting real weird from that. He just got out of a mental hospital actually.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to the digital managing editor at the Dallas Morning News, Robert Wilonsky, joining us.
Robert, thank you for being with us.
Robert, he`s used PTSD when he had a DUI, when he pulled a sword on his girlfriend and her friend, and basically kept them hostage in their
apartment. He always falls back on PTSD. We know he was using marijuana laced with the formaldehyde and PCP? OK. So --
ROBERT WILONSKY, DIGITAL MANAGING EDITOR, DALLAS MORNING NEWS: That was certainly what they believed the day of the shooting, yes.
GRACE: Marijuana laced with PCP and formaldehyde? And he`s trying to blame his military service?
Robert, did he ever see action?
WILONSKY: It does not appear that he did. The talk has always been that he was -- the prosecutor said yesterday that he had a safe job. That they
do not believe that he had PTSD.
Now keep in mind that the word that the defense attorney, Eddie Ray Routh`s attorney keeps using is not PTSD. They don`t talk about that very much.
What they have said so far is psychotic. That`s the word that has been used repeatedly. Because Eddie Ray Routh spent a great deal of time at the
Veterans Administration Hospital here in Dallas as well as Green Oaks, a mental hospital here in Dallas. He`d been released not long before the
shooting from the VA.
So psychotic is the word that keep -- that kept coming up yesterday again and again and again. Very little about PTSD. But a lot about the fact
that he was suffering from psychosis.
GRACE: Robert Wilonsky, he was in such a dissociative feud that he drove through Taco Bell in a stolen truck and ordered two bean burritos?
WILONSKY: $2.36 worth to be exact.
GRACE: How do you know that? From the receipt?
WILONSKY: Yes. That`s what was brought in the testimony today. $2.36 for the burritos.
GRACE: Robert Wilonsky, now I`m not saying that you`re the one urging this. But I`m having a hard time accepting that this guy can gun down an
American hero, then twist our justice system this way.
I can even hardly -- I can hardly even look at this. This is Chris Kyle`s funeral. And --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fought and died. Building a proud reputation and tradition that I`m --
GRACE: You are seeing his funeral at Cowboy Stadium. And I don`t want Chad Littlefield lost in the sauce. Bottom line is, he is using our
justice system claiming PTSD when he was having antisocial and criminal behavior long before he went in the military.
WILONSKY: Yes, before and afterwards. Certainly there was a lot of discussion about the fact that he had pulled this knife, this sword on his
fiance, and then proposed to her about a week before all of this went down. And certainly, you know, you`ve talked a lot about the fact that they
showed this dash cam video.
There is 26 minutes before the chase actually begin in Lancaster where several of the officers are trying to talk to him in his driveway and
they`re saying hey, man, we don`t want to shoot you. We don`t want to show you our guns. He says, I don`t want to show you mine. And he says to one
guy, one of the officers says just keep in mind Lancaster is a pretty small town, it`s up with Dallas, about 38,000 people.
One of the officers says to him, hey, you know, we`ve known each other a long time. And, you know, it doesn`t have to be like this. And the guys
says -- and Eddie Ray Routh says, it`s all happening so fast. I feel like I`m going insane, is the phrase that was used in court today. The audio
that was heard. And certainly not broadcast but certainly played during the court today. So this is clearly their defense.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Yesterday we posted this photo to our Facebook and Twitter asking you to guess which serial killer lived in this home. You sent us answers
using #crimeIQ, answer, Dennis Rader. BTK.
Congratulations, Arkansas Facebook friend, Margaret Wells. You got it right.
Hopefully we`ll be able to stump you next time around.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, my brother just came by here. I was at -- he`s now left. He told me that he committed a murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I`m terrified for my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And not only that. After he guns down American hero Chris Kyle and his friend Chad Littlefield, he goes to his sister`s house, tells her he
sold his soul for this Ford F-350 and starts his plan, his getaway plan to Arkansas.
With me right now, Dr. Harry Croft, Matthew (INAUDIBLE), Patricia Saunders, Dr. Joy Carter and, unleash the lawyers, Robert Schalk and Randy Kessler.
All right, Kessler, we know that this is not going to be PTSD. OK. No matter what the defense lawyers try to tell this jury. Because this guy
was having this kind of behavior that`s anti-social and criminal behavior long before he entered the military. Kessler?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. It doesn`t have to be PTSD. It has to be temporary insanity. You`re talking about this chase and
everything else.
GRACE: Put him up, please.
KESSLER: He might have known later that what he did was wrong, but at the moment he did that, was he crazy? In fact his sister said he was
psychotic. He said, I feel like I`m going insane.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What is she? Is she a psychiatrist? I didn`t know that.
KESSLER: Are we? Are you? No, that`s --
GRACE: No. But I know this. I know this, Robert (INAUDIBLE). I know that if I`d buy Kessler`s story, then the truth is that he goes crazy,
murders the American hero and his friend Chad Littlefield, then he gets sane and goes to Taco Bell like Wilonsky just told us. Drives over to his
sister`s house, says I killed somebody. I sold my soul to get this truck.
He`s got the Navy SEAL Sig Saeur 226 in his hand. And talking about his getaway to Arkansas and then what? He goes crazy again on the police
chase?
ROBERT SCHALK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, it`s all going to depend on the doctors. I mean, he was released from a mental hospital at the VA a
week before. It`s going to be battle of doctors. This is --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Where they released him saying he did not pose any threat to himself or others.
SCHALK: I`m sorry, what was that?
GRACE: The VA Hospital released him saying, OK, this is bogus. He does not pose a threat to himself or others.
SCHALK: Well, again, I`m sure -- he had multiple states. So it`s all going to depend on what kind of records or what the experts say. Again
they have a humongous uphill battle here, you know, it`s going to be very difficult to sell this to a jury. But again, you have every person coming
in contact with him using the word crazy, using the word psychotic.
GRACE: You know what, you just really rubbed me the wrong way, Schalk. When you`re talking about selling this to a jury like I`m in Target or I`m
at Costco trying to sell you something that fell off the truck and got damaged.
I don`t want to sell anything to anybody. I want the truth.
SCHALK: And the truth will come out through the doctors.
GRACE: You are seeing "American Sniper" from Warner Brothers right here. And with me Dr. Harry Croft. Former Army psychiatrist, PTSD expert, author
of "I Always Sit With My Back to the Wall." He`s treated over 7,000 patients. Also with me, clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders.
Dr. Croft, help me out. Why is this not post-traumatic stress syndrome? Or is it? I`m ready to be schooled.
DR. HENRY CROFT, FORMER ARMY PSYCHIATRIST, PTSD EXPERT: Nancy, whether he indeed has PTSD or not I think is irrelevant. What happens here is not the
result of PTSD. Whether he had it or not, I`m not sure. But he did have - - he did have behavior which is not consistent with PTSD.
GRACE: Such as? What is the behavior not consistent with PTSD, Dr. Croft?
CROFT: PTSD is a syndrome from a life-threatening situation which is understandable at the time but then goes on and prolonged then distorted.
And it begins to occur in situations where no threat occurs. It involves things like nightmares, flashbacks, avoidance, negative thoughts, arousal
symptoms. If there`s not involved this kind of violent behavior.
GRACE: Right.
CROFT: Whether this was due to substance abuse or psychosis or something else, I`m not sure. But the point is, it was not due to post-traumatic
stress disorder.
GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders with me along with Dr. Henry Croft.
I mean, come on, Patricia, he was using pot laced with formaldehyde and PCP. And they`re trying to blame it on his service in the military, where
he sat in a green field and never got off the ship in Haiti?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: No, I don`t think this guy has PTSD. I don`t know but it`s not certainly consistent. His behavior shows
plan, act, and look at the behavior, not what people say or a psychiatric diagnosis here. I think what was damming was telling his sister, bragging
to his sister that he murdered two men.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are live at the trial of the man accused of gunning down American hero Chris Kyle and his friend, Chad Littlefield.
Straight out to Matthew W. Horace, former ATF. Senior vice president, chief security officer, FJC Security.
Matthew, thanks for being with us. The difference between a 45 and a 9, what is -- what`s the difference?
MATTHEW W. HORACE, FORMER ATF AGENT: Well, the 45 round is a little larger, it has much more immediate impact. The 9 millimeter round travels
at a high velocity, but it has a lot less impact upon contact. The guns are very similar in style, but very different in power and depth.
GRACE: To Dr. Joye Carter, chief forensic pathologist, author of "I Speak for the Dead," there are so many clues to me, Dr. Carter, that these two
victims, Chris Kyle and Chad Littlefield, never had a chance. For one thing both of them had loaded weapons. They were at a gun -- a shooting
range. They had both of their loaded weapons stuffed down in their waist holster. They didn`t see it coming. But from your angle, Dr. Carter, from
the forensics, how can you tell what happened?
DR. JOYE CARTER, CHIEF FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, the forensic pathologist examines the body for the injuries, where the injuries enter
the body, what injury they caused and devastating injuries, both of these large caliber bullets would cause to the body. The fact that both of these
people were shot in their hand, indicating trying to control -- getting ahold of their weapons and shot multiple times. Devastating injuries and
what we call overkill.
GRACE: To Matt Zarrell on the story. You know, Matt, when I was listening to the wife, Taya`s testimony, talking about the last time she spoke to her
husband and how he`s very short on the phone, it was very unlike him. It`s because Eddie Ray Routh is in the car, probably talking about God only
knows what, and his friend, they`re texting says watch my six, which is your back because it`s at the bottom of the clock. Watch my six.
So just because the guy has outlandish theories, conspiracy theories and all of that, it`s got to be more than that to equal insanity. What can you
tell me, Matt Zarrell about his previous -- his prior incidents, his bad acts before he went into the military and on?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes. Prosecutors laid it out pretty clearly. They claimed that Routh lied about much of what he encountered in
the service in order to get Veterans Affairs benefits, but also listed other prior bad acts including threatening other officers and expressing a
desire to get out and kill other people. In fact, he once told a jail officer, quote, "I`m trying to be good but being an ass is more fun."
GRACE: Wait. Wait. He said what?
ZARRELL: He said, "I`m trying to be good, but being an ass is more fun."
GRACE: You know what? To hear that, Matt, and to look at this funeral footage, "I`m trying to be good but being an ass is more fun"? You know
what? He can just rot in hell.
Let`s stop and remember American heroes. Tonight we honor the first African-American unit to fight for union forces in the civil war. Their
story up next as HLN premieres "NEWS AND A MOVIE: GLORY."
Good night, friend.
END
