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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
As Many As Six Terror Suspects May Be on the Run; Lassana Bathily's heroically Saving Hostages in Paris; White House Admits They Should Have Been at Unity March; Restoring Picture of Crash Using Black Boxes
Aired January 12, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
Things are moving fast tonight in the wake of the Paris killings. The question right now, are there more members of the terror cell than just these three who are dead and this woman on the run? New reporting suggest the answer could be yes.
We are also learning more tonight about the lengthy paper trail the killers had and their terror connections they apparently made long before their deadly rampage last Wednesday.
We also learned as if we didn't already know after spending the week there, just what Paris strong means. This is what it looked like in the city yesterday. A unity rally drawing more people than turned out to mark the liberation of Paris during the second world war. It was that big.
Said one French commentator today, they want us to lie down, we stand up. They want to divide us, we unite.
Leaders from around the world came to show solidarity from across the political and sectarian divide including Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu, and Palestinian authorities Mahmoud Abbas. Notably absent, though, either President Obama or vice president Biden, or even secretary of state John Kerry. We'll have more on that shortly.
But first, the manhunt and all the new reporting at this hour. Jim Sciutto joins us from Paris.
So tell us about these reports that are as many as six suspects connected with the Paris attacks may be on the run.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, this has been the burning question since the moment of those gunned stormed the offices of Charlie Hebdo. Are there other attackers out there? The answer today from the French prime minister to CNN is yes, very likely there were accomplices.
You now have a report from AP quoting "police sources saying perhaps as many as six." Unclear whether that's accomplices or members of a network that knew these attackers. But right now, French authorities operating under the assumption that there are others involved, who are out there and that helps explain the massive police and military presence around the country tonight.
COOPER: Yes. There has been 10,000 forces. And unprecedented display of force in France have been deployed.
Jim, authorities are searching for this woman, Hayat Boumeddiene, the girlfriend and accomplice to the man who was killed after he took over the kosher supermarket. What's the latest on her?
SCIUTTO: Well, we now have video proof that she indeed crossed into Turkey, from a flight from Madrid earlier, just in several days, five days before the attack. And then as the information from Turkish authorities as then they believe she continued on from Turkey into Syria the day before the siege on the kosher market here. So she's out of pocket.
Certainly another person involved in this attack who they would want to speak to, arrest. But disappearing in effect into Syria. And it just shows the difficulty of tracking the people involved in this case.
COOPER: There are also now reports that Bulgaria has arrested a Frenchman suspected of having links to one of the Kouachi brothers. What do you know about him?
SCIUTTO: That's right. This is a man who entered Bulgaria that attempted to cross from Bulgaria into Turkey, that presumption from Turkish authorities was he was going to continue on to Syria. He was arrested. Now there's a suggested link between him and the Kouachi brothers. It's not certain if he just knew them or was involved with them. But the French now working on extraditing him from Bulgaria, to France. He's one of many people that they want to talk to under suspicion in connection with the attack. But it is not clear tonight, Anderson, whether he had clear connection or involvement in the attack in Paris.
COOPER: All right, Jim, appreciate the update.
As we said, there are a lot of moving parts. I do want to get the latest now on just how much authorities knew about these killers, and tragically how far in advance they actually knew it.
Drew Griffin now investigates a paper trail that foreshadowed the trail of mayhem and death.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are court documents filed on December 20th, 2013, just a little more than one year ago, which go into explicit detail of how a group of about a dozen French Muslims were plotting to stage a prison break and free a fellow terrorist in 2010.
Two key figures in the plot, the same two now dead suspects, accused of carrying out last week's horrific attacks in Paris. Cherif Kouachi, who with his brother staged a massacre of the offices of the magazine "Charlie Hebdo" and his close jihadist associate, Amedy Coulibaly, accused of killing a French police officer, then killing four more at a Jewish grocery store.
Documents obtained by CNN show the attacks should have come as no surprise to the French.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These documents show as early as 2013, when there was condemned and convicted, these individuals put posed a significant threat to the national security.
GRIFFIN: When French police investigated, Amedy Coulibaly in 2010, he was described as a logistics experts, in-charge of accumulating weapons and arms for the prison break block. Record show Coulibaly was found to have illegally stored a huge cache of high-caliber arms, including some 240 cartridges for high-powered machine guns, with the specific goal, the documents say, of seriously hurting people through intimidation or terror acts.
Also found in his apartment, computers with security and encryption, audio recordings of Islamic religious figures, and even recipes written in Arabic for making poison purportedly capable of killing a million people. And there were several photos showing him dressed in his Islamic guard posing in front of a black flag with white Arabic inscriptions on it.
Though convicted and sentenced to five years in prison, like other terror suspects, French officials allowed Coulibaly credit for time served then released him sometime early last year.
We now know Coulibaly terrorist ways never changed after his death last week in this shootout. Police again raided his apartment and again found a huge cache of arms. The court documents also reveal just how close-knit the terror group was, their relationships forge in a Paris park and in prison.
Cherif Kouachi had apparently become even more radicalized following his arrest in 2005. He had met a well-known jihadist spiritual leader and terror recruiter in prison, a man by the name of Jamal Nagal. And once they were freed, visited the same well-known terrorist, even staying with him for days at a time.
His companions on some of the visits, Amedy Coulibaly. Court record show Coulibaly's now wanted wife, Hayat Boumeddiene, would join them as well. All visiting the man they called the wise man.
The documents describe a series of pictures dated April 2010, showing Amedy Coulibaly and his companion with an Islamic veil, posing with a crossbow. That companion is believed to be Hayat Boumeddiene, now wanted and apparently on the run.
All right, of the connections to a terrorism game, plus, a jihadist recruitment where known to police for years. The documents even detail how Kouachi and Coulibaly would make efforts to hide conversations by using code names over portable or disposable cell phones, sometimes even using pay phones. Both men remained under surveillance. But in a move that has not yet been fully explained, the surveillance ended just six months ago.
COOPER: You know, Drew, I think back to what we learned about the 9/11 plotters, that many of them were known by authorities, suspicions even raised. This obviously, though, is different in that they were actually in prison at one point. How much did American intelligence officials and maybe other countries know about these guys?
GRIFFIN: Anderson, we learned two things today. Amedy Coulibaly was on a U.S. terror watch list. So we know about him. And was Cherif Kouachi, that was reported earlier, we also know the French and Yemeni officials had both known that the Kouachi brothers had been to Yemen. At one point, one of the brothers reportedly even shared a room with the failed underwear bomber, (INAUDIBLE). The fact is they were all well-known to counterterrorism officials and somehow slipped under the radar long enough to plot, plan and carry out these attacks.
COOPER: And the explanation so far from the French is there are just too many of these possible terrorists, or potential terrorists to keep track of. And perhaps these guys kind of laid low for a while. So whatever tracking was being done, they kind of thought, well, maybe these guys are no longer operational. Are intelligence officials, are they buying that in terms of lack of manpower, in light of all this information, are French officials sticking to that explanation?
GRIFFIN: You know, they say there are a lot of bad guys to follow. But even France's prime minister is admitting, Anderson, there were failings in the intelligence system. And just this morning in Paris, France's president held this emergency meeting to discuss what could be done to make sure that what -- I mean, obviously this stuff in hindsight looks very easy to connect the dots. They want to make sure they connect those dots beforehand. That sounds a lot like the aftermath of 9/11.
But just one other thing, Anderson, you know, these guys were getting out of prison, at least Coulibaly was just last year. So however long he could have laid low, it seems could have only been one year. So that's something the French will look at.
COOPER: Yes. Drew Griffin, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
A lot more ahead on the terror attacks.
As always, a quick reminder, make sure to set your DVR, so you watch 360 whenever you want.
Coming up, we do have more breaking news. Authorities say they know who that so-called the wise man in Drew's report is. It's a name that will not make anyone sleep better tonight. We will tell you who that is ahead.
Later, the hero who helped take these people, give them shelter from one of the killers in that supermarket. It is a remarkable story, and others now coming to light.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Before the break, you heard Drew Griffin mentioned someone known only as the wise man, who with home, according to Drew's reporting, the Paris conspirators had contact.
Well, tonight, we are learning who authorities believe that shadowy figure is. Our Deborah Feyerick is breaking the story. She joins us now. He is identified as Al-Qaeda's recruiter in Europe and has connections to two of the terrorists.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's exactly right. And this is what makes him so interesting. Because this is a man who was convicted of two plots. Not only the plot to blow up the U.S. embassy in Paris back in 2001, when it was hatched, but that's where ten years later he's also found guilty of plotting to free a man from prison. That man implicated and convicted in a plot that basically blew up the Paris metro.
COOPER: The Algerian national.
FEYERICK: That's exactly right. So let's go back to the U.S. embassy plot. Because this is where it sort of all begins. We know that Begal was in Afghanistan for an eight-month period from November 2000 through until July 2001. When he was there, he was instructed to carry out this U.S. embassy bombing plot, which essentially meant he was to go from Afghanistan to Dubai.
COOPER: And this guy, I think, what, on the lower --
FEYERICK: It is the one right in the middle there. He's wearing tan pants and he has got this white jacket on. He hid there from behind. So he was told effectively to carry out this plot. He was going to go from Afghanistan, go to Dubai, from Dubai to Morocco, lose his passport and then travel up through Spain where he was instructed to get money in order to finance this plot. However, we was picked up into Dubai. He was taken into custody. He was questioned by French and U.S. intelligence agents. And he was put in prison, and then later found guilty of being involved in this.
And so, then you fast forward, and then you've got -- or when you look at the continuum of time, really, this was two years after the U.S. embassy attacks against the buildings in Tanzania, as well as Kenya. But it was also just months before the 9/11 attack.
COOPER: And the plot to free this Algerian guy from prison, the guy who took over the supermarket was put in jail involved in that as well. As well as the younger Kouachi brother, although there was not enough evidence really to bring him to trial.
But this guy, the so-called wise man, he's been linked to Al-Qaeda central whereas the Kouachi brothers are being linked to Al-Qaeda in Yemen.
FEYERICK: And you have to look at the continuum of Al-Qaeda itself. Anwar al-Awlaki, who is Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, he was considered the ideological heir apparent to bin Laden. He was considered the You Tube bin Laden. Because his servants were so powerful, that he was advocating a lone wolf insurgency for these young individuals.
But you go back even farther, and now we've got a connection between a known recruiter, and Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda. And not just any Al- Qaeda, but bin Laden's Al-Qaeda. So it really shows that this sort of terrorist plot has been going on for a very long time.
This is a picture of Begal. And he is there with --
COOPER: Begal, there on the left. And this Coulibaly who took over the supermarket on the right.
FEYERICK: Exactly. So he has been in and out of prison on the significant terror plots. He's now back in prison. But now, he is also linked to these two individuals. So the question is, those surveillance photographs you saw, that's part of a 45,000 pages the French authority have on Begal. And then, this is what they collected on him over time. Not just wire transcripts, but also these images that you just saw.
COOPER: All right, Deb Feyerick, appreciate the reporting.
A lot to talk about. Fabrice Magnier joins us. He is a CNN terrorism analyst and former French naval special forces member. Also with us, former CIA and FBI counterterrorism official Phillip Mudd.
Phil, the fact that Cherif Kouachi, one of the brothers, made contact with this Al-Qaeda recruiter two years after being released from prison, it surely points to the dangers of not keeping track of these guys once they are released.
PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Yes. You've got to think, though, about how long we've been looking at this case, and the number of cases you're weighing this against. So I think this highlights a couple of things, Anderson, about the complexity of the lengthy cases. The first is, these guys, we've been at this war for 15 years. The adversaries learned a lot about how the western security services operate in those 15 years.
I saw operatives in Al-Qaeda studying things like court transcripts from the west to learn how law enforcement had gotten up on some of the people rearrested. They learned a lot about us, we learned a lot about them. They're very careful to evade law enforcement.
The second is, as they learned about law enforcement, they're very careful in some cases about crossing the line. So collecting intelligence about someone that suggests that they're dirty is not the same as collecting evidence that you can prove in a court of law.
As this game of cat-and-mouse has gone along, some of these guys have been very sophisticated about how not to trigger law enforcement to arrest them in the midst of an intelligence investigation.
COOPER: And Fabrice, you and I talked about this in Paris last week. Is it just that security services in France, in Paris, are overwhelmed? That there are too many suspects and not enough personnel, not enough manpower? FABRICE MAGNIER, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: No, I'm not convinced that we
are overwhelmed by the threat, actually. You know, it's less than one week ago. And the first part of terrorist attack was to stop the three terrorists at that time. Now they are killing them. And now this is the second phase. And all the security forces and intelligence agencies are now focused to track those guys. And now it's a race against the clock to find those guys. So I think we have really all the manpower and necessary actually to find the suspects actually. It's not a problem of manpower, or resources actually.
COOPER: But Fabrice, in terms of monitoring people who are not obviously, who have already committed an attack, but people who are suspects, if there are more than a thousand suspects, it takes a lot of people to follow somebody around the clock.
MAGNIER: Yes, sure. Yes, that is a point, actually. Because, you know, the threat changed in the last two years. And we are now -- the threat is accelerating very quickly on an exponential scale. And of course, now, we have to adapt our security system to be able to conquer this spread-out of jihadists on the ground, you know. A few years ago, there were just maybe 100, 200, now maybe more than 1,500 in all sort. So, it's not so easy now to react in such a very short time, you know. So, that's a challenge that we have to face, to react very quickly and to be able to conquer those guys now.
COOPER: And Phil, obviously the travel problems, the ease of travel, I guess I should say, is a huge problem for countries in western Europe. And we saw this female suspect who was able to get on a plane from ma grid. She ends up in Turkey. She crosses over into Syria.
MUDD: I think it's not just the ease of travel, Anderson, it's the fact that the adversary has learned a lot about the kind of clues we look at. It's not very complicated whether you're in New York or Paris to realized, not get a one-way ticket to Yemen.
Let me go to someplace like Turkey, let me go to someplace like Jordan. So when you look at the volume of travelers from the United States, and the number of people traveling overseas, for example, on student visas, or traveling on tourist visas, to sit back and say, hey, let's start to look at every person between the ages of, let's say 15 and 45, who's traveling to a place like Turkey or Jordan just because we might find one who is potentially going into Syria. That kind of problem -- you can't solve that problem. The numbers are just too great.
COOPER: And Phil, in terms of tracking this woman now that she's in Syria, a, is it worthwhile? I mean, do you think she's still a potential threat?
MUDD: I don't think she is. I don't think we'll ever see her come home. There's a great prospect to my mind that she will become propaganda for ISIS to put her out on You Tube as someone who represents the new ISIS in Syria and Iraq. Not necessarily beheadings, but someone who's participating in attacking the west. Great propaganda value. But the likelihood she comes home, when she's identified not just by
photos, but biometrics, things like DNA, very low. She's got a couple prospects, Anderson, none good. One, the Syrian military bomb, a location she's at. Two, she gets involve in factual fighting among the Islamist groups and dies. And three, the U.S. military intelligence operating aircraft or drones kills her.
I'm not saying they would target her. I'm saying she might be affiliated with leadership that's targeted. I think eventually she will die out there. She will not come home.
COOPER: Phil Mudd, appreciate you being on. Fabrice Magnier, as wall. Thank you so much.
As always, you can find out a lot more on this story and many others at CNN.com.
Just ahead, in the middle of his standoff with police, the terrorist who took over that supermarket called a French newsroom from the kosher market he had seized. I'll talk to the deputy managing editor who got that call.
Plus, how several hostages survived that ordeal. What she saw and heard and how they managed to stay alive. Their story is coming up.
COOPER: Now the man who talked to a terrorist in the middle of carrying out an attack. Amedy Coulibaly spoke for three minutes with the deputy managing editor of BFMTV, Alexis Delahousse, as the standoff at a kosher supermarket was going on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's far from all that he said earlier. Tonight, I spoke to an interpreter with Alexis.
COOPER: Alexis, how did you manage to get this guy on the phone in the middle of the hostage situation? ALEXIS DELAHOUSE, DEPUTY MANAGING DIRECTOR, BFMTV (through text): The
gunman called us directly in the newsroom. He wanted to talk to us. He said it was to talk to the police. he especially wanted to tell people why he was doing this. He said he was a member of ISIS. Before him, the two gunmen in Charlie Hebdo's attack where contacted by the newsroom. We were looking for a witness, an interview. They said they were from Al-Qaeda in Yemen.
COOPER: When he told you there were already four dead, what went through your mind?
DELAHOUSE (though text): It was very harsh. It gives shivers to think that on the phone with someone who is taking people hostage and giving you the number of dead people. You need to know that it was a very personal decision. At first, we decided not to release on that on the air. We didn't release any information or elements from the terrorisms on BFMTV. We kept this information for us, but especially for the police, who we called immediately. He gave us the number of dead people. It was terrifying. He told us that right away. HE was in the market in the kosher market. And he told that he ultimately killed people.
COOPER: It's unbelievable.
Tonight, some riveting details about how the French hostages who came so close to death on Friday, how they actually survived. Some of the survivors are inside that Kosher supermarket in Paris are describing what they endured, and how they managed to stay alive until help arrived.
We are also learning what was happening inside the printing plant outside Paris in the hours before police began their raid. Each one of the hostages feared they would die, which makes their courage all the more remarkable.
Randi Kaye reports.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the face of terror, survivors and heroes emerge. Like this man, a practicing Muslim who herded people into a freezer at this kosher market where he worked. The gunman Amedy Coulibaly had just charge in to the store and open fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I switched off the light. I switched off the freezer. HE asked us to all come upstairs otherwise he would kill everyone who is downstairs. I asked my colleague was I thought, should we go upstairs or stay here? With me, there was one person with the 2-year-old baby.
I told them, you stay calm. I'm the one who is going to go up. I took the elevator and went upstairs. KAYE: Lassana Bathily then managed to run outside to tell police
about the gunman and the hostages in the freezer. One of those in the freezer, Rudi Haddad, later spoke exclusively with Israeli Channel 2 News.
RUDI HADDAD, HELD HOSTAGE AT KOSHER MARKET: He was there to kill people. We heard a big explosion. We were still all closed in the fridge. We heard gunfire from everywhere.
KAYE: When they were freed ...
HADDAD: They said to climb upstairs and not look on the floor because there was a lot of blood on the floor. It's a miracle that we're all still here, me and the people who were in the fridge.
KAYE: As news of the freezer hideaway spread, social media lit up. Lassana Bathily was hailed a hero. This tweet reads, "Muslim worker in kosher store hid Jews, saved them. Right now, Lassana Bathily is coolest man on the planet."
Just north of Paris, the suspects from the Charlie Hebdo massacre were cornered inside a printing plant. What they didn't know, was that Lilian Lepere, a graphic designer was hiding inside a cardboard box, texting police about the gunman's movement and his own whereabouts in the building.
He also reportedly sent this chilling text to his father. "I am hidden on the first floor. I think they have killed everyone. Tell the police to intervene." His text likely helped snipers set their positions. In the end, Lepere and a hostage being held at gun point survived. Turns out, there were no other victims.
Another man at the printing plant earlier also survived a close encounter with the Kouachi brothers. He told French radio he mistakenly shook hands with one of the suspects before the owner told him to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I supposed he was a terrorist. I didn't really know. I took him as a non-policeman. He wasn't wearing a uniform and he had a bulletproof vest on.
KAYE: When the siege was over, he told reporters he was going to buy a lottery ticket. That it was the luckiest day of his life. Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
COOPER: Lucky indeed.
Just ahead, President Obama was a no-show at yesterday's huge rally in Paris. As you probably know, he didn't send a high level envoy either. The White House now admits it messed up. The question is, how does that happen? Plus we've gotten hold of some new reporting, potentially, actually, a very significant new development in the AirAsia story involving the plane's cockpit voice recorder. Details ahead. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Today, the White House did something pretty surprising, basically admitting publicly that there was in fact something wrong with this picture. As we said earlier, leaders from 40 countries marched with French president Francois Hollande yesterday leading the Paris rally that drew more than a million people. Notably absent, President Obama or the vice president or the secretary of state. Mr. Obama's failure to show or send a high-level envoy has sparked a lot of criticism. You no doubt heard that by now. Today, the White House admitted they messed up.
JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Some have asked whether or not the United States should have sent someone with a higher profile than the ambassador to France. And I think it's fair to say that we should have sent someone with a higher profile to be there. That said, there is no doubt that the American people and this administration stand four-square behind our allies in France as they face down this threat.
COOPER: Well, today Secretary of State John Kerry said he'll fly to Paris on Friday to show support for the French government. Joining me is senior political analyst and former presidential advisor David Gergen, also, Fareed Zakaria, host of Fareed Zakaria "GPS".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: David, was it a mistake for the White House not to - I mean I don't get the thinking. Why wouldn't you send somebody? The vice president? That's what they're there for, isn't it?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I think so. I think we were all mystified yesterday when we learned that the vice president wasn't going. He was the most obvious choice. Vice Presidents always go to funerals. They represent the United States overseas. Many, many times when there are international incidents. On this occasion, more than most, I think was one that was so clear that the United States should be there. We asked them to stand with us time after time when we think we're threatened, and now they're threatened and we have to stand with them the.
COOPER: I mean the president did go to the French embassy in Washington to sign the condolence book, but still, it seems like a -- kind of a ridiculous oversight not to - or mistake.
ZAKARIA: You know, in one of his interviews, Obama said something very frank, and interesting, which is, he said I realize that I'm very good on policy, but I sometimes don't give any thought to the optics of situations. And it's actually true. You think about his campaign where - the optics were always brilliant, but once he began governing, he sort of approaches it more like a policy one. It strangely seemed to miss in this particular case. The policy was the symbol. The symbolism was policy. And not to be there, not to demonstrate that unity was a mistake. Not just of optics, but actually of the substance here.
GERGEN: I think Fareed, I think it goes beyond the optics, and that's the humanity. When people are killed in this way, and the world unites. We've never seen such a massive demonstration in France, that there's sort of an emotional component to this.
COOPER: In terms of policy, I mean let's look forward. What happens now? I mean you now have a situation in France where you have 10,000 troops deployed. This is unprecedented security operation going on in France. Obviously U.S. intelligence has got to be extremely concerned about this. I don't know if the chance of an attack in the United States has gone up, or because of the focus it has reduced. What do you think?
GERGEN: Well, I think first of all, we ought to give credit to the administration, to the president today when they reversed themselves and said they made a mistake.
GERGEN: How refreshing. When was the last time someone in power ...
COOPER: Nobody ever says that in politics.
GERGEN: Yeah, people never said it. We made a mistake. And I think owning up to it was very helpful for cleaning the field. And beyond that, I would assume that this is a moment when the United States in a leadership role with France can help pull the nation more closely together on questions of borders. I mean the French can't handle these thousands of people who have been now in one way or another engaged - just two minute. They couldn't keep up with these folks because there were so many different potential threats. And the border is really important. To me, the other question, Anderson, what does it mean for the United States? And do you think that the chances of such an attack in the United States have now gone up?
COOPER: I do. I mean every intelligence, former intelligence officials I've talked to has said they're surprised this has not occurred already in the United States.
ZAKARIA: I'll tell you. I'll tell you. It clearly has gone up. Because there is a copycat phenomenon.
ZAKARIA: Demonstration of - But the big difference, let's remember, is that the United States does not have a large disgruntled radicalized Muslim or Arab community.
COOPER: Not only is it a better assimilated population here, let's - people within the Muslim population, but also, just the borders - you know, we have obviously problems on the southern border, to have to fly to the United States. There are no-fly lists, these guys - fly less worth in Western Europe, you know, you can travel by train, you can travel by car. There's basically, there's virtually no borders, and that makes it far easier for these people to get around. GERGEN: It does. It does. But if we've got that many people
floating around, we're going to have trouble, too.
COOPER: Part of terrorism is to - it is a weapon of the weak. And part of the objective of it is to get an overreaction so that you actually further polarize the sides. And I do think that's some of what's at the - you know, some of what these terrorists want is to get that overreaction, to get a war between Islam and the west and get people using that kind of rhetoric. Because that feeds into what the terrorists -- the messages of the terrorists.
GERGEN: Sure - if their effort is to divide, what's so important about that mass rally yesterday was how massive it was.
GERGEN: When you have three-man people, four-man people marking all over France, and joined by people from all over the world, that sends an extraordinarily important signal.
ZAKARIA: It's also important to remember, I think, the point Anderson is making, I think, which is the broader level is, terrorism is a tactic that depends on the response of the onlookers.
COOPER: Yes. Absolutely.
ZAKARIA: If you are not terrorized, it didn't work.
COOPER: Right. Right.
GERGEN: That's what the - saying, we're not afraid.
ZAKARIA: So, the signaling that in many ways is crucial to success.
COOPER: We are going to leave it there. David Gergen. Thank you. Fareed as well. Thank you.
GERGEN: Thank you.
COOPER: All right, let's get the latest on some of the other stories we're following. Amara Walker has a "360 Bulletin." Amara
AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Anderson. The Twitter account for the U.S. military Central Command is suspended after being hacked by ISIS sympathizers. Defense officials say no classified information was taken
And a "360" follow, to Albuquerque, New Mexico, police who shot to death a mentally ill homeless man in the back will face murder charges. Keith Sandy and Dominique Perez killed James Boyd when they confronted him about the illegal camp he set up last March. The shooting was captured on an officer's helmet camera.
And the New York clinic where Joan Rivers suffered a fatal complication during a vocal cord procedure will lose its federal accreditation at the end of the month. That means, no more federal funds to cover services for Medicare and Medicaid patients. Yorkville Endoscopy says it will appeal the decision. Rivers died in September, a week after going into cardiac arrest at the clinic. She was 81.
And a former Miami Dolphins fullback has an extraordinary story of survival. Robert Conrad fought back tears at a news conference in Florida today. Conrad said he fell off his boat last Wednesday, swam nine miles in about 16 hours to get back to shore and was encircled by sharks and stung by jelly fish along the way. And incredible story of survival, Anderson.
COOPER: Yeah. Just amazing, Amara, thanks very much.
Still ahead, still, the story of a radical Islamist turned double agent who's now lifting the lid on some of the world's best-kept secrets. CNN special report, double agent inside al Qaeda for the CIA coming up at 9:00 p.m. Eastern here on CNN.
Up next now on this program, we have breaking news, Reuters now reporting searchers have retrieved both black boxes from the AirAsia flight 8501. The latest on that and why one official says the plane exploded after it hit the water.
COOPER: A big discovery in the investigation of AirAsia flight 8501. Searcher have found the black boxes, divers found the flight data recorder under the wreckage of one of the plane's wings in the Java Sea. The cockpit voice recorder was also located in the debris. And it's also been retrieved according to Reuters. The black boxes could be the key, obviously, to solving the mystery of what actually brought the flight down last month. Meanwhile, an official with the Indonesian National Search and Rescue Agency is telling CNN that analysis of the debris pattern indicates the plane exploded after it hit the water. Joining me now is CNN safety analyst David Soucie, author of "Malaysia Airlines Flight 370" and CNN aviation correspondent Richard Quest. Richard, in terms of the information now one can get off these black boxes, I know it's not completely everything, but basically what is it?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, it is. It's everything.
QUEST: This is going to tell you - this is - if you've got the flight data recorder, and you've got the cockpit voice recorder. And you can marry it up with the timeline of what the weather was doing at the same time so you can get a full picture of what was happening on the aircraft. I would be astonished if they did not as a result of this information get chapter and verse on what happened in that plane.
COOPER: Indeed, Soucie, how long does it take to get that information from the black boxes?
DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Getting the information, the data doesn't take very long at all. What takes the time is the analysis of the data, and recreating the accident after the fact. Which they have software now that will do that. It takes the data, it actually creates a three-dimensional model, a picture of what the aircraft was doing at the time. So, that can take as much as weeks, and even a month or two. But we may not even see it then, because a lot of times they won't release those - that information specifically until they've made a determination on the cause.
COOPER: Do you think it might be quicker than that?
SOUCIE: Well, this is something that David and I have discussed many times. This is - this was the United States. And the NTSB. If you look at Virgin Galactic, you look at - you look at all the incidents, the NTSB will be out very quickly, giving us a pretty good thumbnail sketch of what had happened. Almost in decent haste sometimes to give out the information. Indonesia, we may find them playing much harder towards the rules of (INAUDIBLE), which does - which is very restrictive. But the U.S. has changed the procedures, hugely in the way people do these things.
COOPER: Richard, what we talk about this data from this. What does it actually look like? I mean is it just computerized? Obviously the flight voice recorder is digitized.
QUEST: It is. But what happens is, you then put it into a graph. You then put it into a graph. And you can see the various movements that have been made by the different control surfaces. And you'll be told which pilot made them. Now, if you then put on top of that the voice recorder, second by second, millisecond by millisecond, you do get this total picture.
COOPER: And the voice recorder, David, picks up anything that was said in the cockpit. It doesn't - an intercom doesn't have to be flipped on, or a switch doesn't have to be flipped. It's just - it automatically records what was said?
SOUCIE: There's actually three microphones, Anderson. One is on the co-pilot, one is on the pilot, and then there's one for an ambience, which is in the cabin. So, that can pick up noises like switches being thrown. You can actually hear - you can anticipate how large hail is if it hits the windshield just from the sound of how it hits the windshield.
COOPER: What do you make, David, of this report from this one Indonesian official who says that they believe the plane broke up after it hit the water? Or exploded after it hit the water?
SOUCIE: Well, the word exploded I think is a little bit -- maybe loses a little in translation.
SOUCIE: I think what's really - what he's meaning is a rupture from the impact itself, as any you can imagine any hollow object hitting something very hard. The pressure differential between the outside and the inside is very significant and it will actually tear apart the aircraft on the top. That may be what he is referring to.
COOPER: So that's pretty obvious. I mean obviously when it hits the water it would break apart and really - and it crashed, wouldn't it?
SOUCIE: Well, yeah, except it tells you something about the way that it hit the water. Because if it goes in nose first, and that in a straight dive, it would be torn in a different way than it is now as you look at it being pulled out of the water. The caution here is that if you look at it being pulled out of the water, a lot of damage happens if you don't pull it out properly. And sometimes in the haste of getting the thing out of the water and up from the ocean, they can lift it up too quickly and that can cause some subsequent damage. A lot of the investigation is just determining what happened during the accident, and what happened afterwards, which requires a microscopic look at that metal to see if it was a rapid rupture or if it was something that was torn later.
COOPER: You know, Richard, I think you and I were talking before and I know with David Gallo and David Soucie we were, about how in military planes they have black boxes that eject before a crash, so they're actually much more easily can be retrieved. I understand the airbus has now actually asked for, among international regulators, to actually get ejectable black boxes.
QUEST: They're exploring, in the last 24 hours, they've discussed this. They are exploring putting ejectable black boxes, recorders on the 380, the - on the A-380. And the reason is, the primary long haul aircraft, that (INAUDIBLE) massively ...
COOPER: David, Soucie, this seems an obvious thing to do, no?
SOUICE: Well, it does. And the nice thing about these things, in fact, is that it goes beyond just the black box. Because with the black box, the proximity to the underwater locator beacon is all we have. In these devices you have an EPIRB, which is activated by water, and sends out an emergency locator transmitter signal. And that's picked up by satellites that are constantly monitoring. So, it would be important because you can triangulate where the position is on that device within seconds. You could tell exactly where that is. And this mystery of this if people survived or not, of if they are rescuable or not, those questions would all be answered if that was able to be retrieved immediately.
COOPER: What does an EPIRB stand for? Is that electronic something and beacon?
SOUCIE: It's emergency position indicator radio beacon.
COOPER: OK. Wow. So, that was not an attempt to stump you, by the way, I was genuinely curious. David Soucie, thank you very much. Richard Quest as well. Just ahead, a closer look at amazing show of strength and solidarity in France. We're going to have the sights and the sounds of the march that drew so many people to the streets of Paris and all over France.
COOPER: 3.7 million people gathered throughout France, with at least 1.5 million taking to the streets of Paris on Sunday. They stood for unity, for strength in the wake of terrorism. And for joining together in peace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just felt to - like again. Terrorism like, it's the most important thing to do today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our religion is religion of love, ish-adar (ph), our religion loves Jews, our religion loves Muslims, our religion loves Christians.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have traveled to show solidarity with the French people, with the French values. You know, this nation has -- you know, this nation has a lot behind it. You know, achieving these values. So, you know, as Voltaire said, I may disagree with you, but I would die defending your right to say it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are all terribly shocked by what has happened. It's a worldwide movement. Unfortunately, at last because for myself, I always demonstrate for a better world. And the planet has had enough of sufferings of all sorts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nationalities, they don't matter, like religions, they don't matter either, everybody is together to fight against terrorism, to show the world we are fighting against them. We will never give up.
COOPER: Wow. Quite a day. We'll see you again at 11:00 p.m. Eastern. The CNN Special Report "DOUBLE AGENT: INSIDE AL QAEDA FOR THE CIA" starts now.