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CNN TONIGHT

7-Year-Old's Miracle Survival Story; Are the NYPD and NYC Mayor at War?; Battle Against Brunch; Race Relations in New York with Tensions Between Police, Mayor; Oprah Winfrey Speaks on Recent Protests; Update on Flight 8501 Search

Aired January 5, 2015 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

It's the new year, the big question, though, is race the big problem in America today? From police turning their backs on the mayor of New York to what looks like an awful lot of deliberate -- job slowdown by officers. Even a battle against that most New York of institutions, Brunch. Looks like race is the heart -- at the heart of all of it.

So what do we do about it? We're going to get into all of that tonight.

Plus a tale of two crashes. A 7-year-old survives a plane crash that killed her entire family and walks three quarters of a mile through the woods in the middle of the night. Showing up at a stranger's door with a bloody nose and covered in scratches. How did she make it out alive?

Tonight her incredible survival story.

Also the fatal flight of AirAsia 8501. One Indonesian captain says the tail may have been found, but is it a big break or is it a false lead?

We're going to go live to Indonesia.

We've got a whole lot to get to tonight for you. But I want to begin with the incredible story of 7-year-old Sailor Gutzler and how she survived the plane crash that killed her whole family.

CNN's Martin Savidge is in Kentucky with that for us this evening -- Martin.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Don. Yes, you know, this is a story that is both tragic but also full of what many have considered now a miracle. It's a term I don't like to use too often because it is often overused. But how that little girl got through what she did, made it through the woods to this home is miraculous.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Larry Wilkins can tell you what a miracle sounds like. LARRY WILKINS, HELPED 7-YEAR-OLD SURVIVOR: Just like that. Wasn't a

big loud knock. And I opened the door and got the surprise of my life, you know.

SAVIDGE: Seven-year-old Sailor Gutzler had just crawled from her crashed family plane past the bodies of her father, mother, sister, and cousin, and walked nearly a mile without shoes, in shorts and short sleeves in temperatures in the 30s.

WILKINS: Her nose was bloody. I don't know. I can't say for sure but I think maybe her lip might have been cut. But her little legs is what really got your attention because they were striped up all over.

SAVIDGE (on camera): To be clear, no one knows exactly the route the young girl took. But there's the house she went to for help. And here is the woods from which she emerged. So we're going to try and literally figure it out along the way.

(Voice-over): At first it's easy going on a flat former dirt trail.

(On camera): Well, the road didn't last. In fact, it just comes literally to this dead end. And now the next question is, where do you go from here?

(Voice-over): Any direction takes you into deep brush. It's not like I'm looking for the easiest path. There is no path, just dense undergrowth that grabs, trips and stabs.

(On camera): This is really nasty stuff. You can see the really sharp needles on here. These are briars. In the darkness, just getting smacked in the face. It's no wonder she was all cut up.

(Voice-over): But that's just one of many obstacles.

(On camera): It's just downed tree limbs everywhere. It could be from old storms in the past, ice storms. Remember, she's wearing shorts and short sleeves.

(Voice-over): There are steep inclines, ditches and an endless number of ways to get seriously hurt.

(On camera): You could easily get a leg caught, snap it, break a bone.

(Voice-over): You also start walking in circles since the brush blocks your view of any landmarks.

(On camera): But it's so thick, you can't really get a real sense of direction.

(Voice-over): I stumble around for a while longer.

(On camera): What a mess.

(Voice-over): Then give up and call out to my photographer, in a kind of Marco Polo fashion, to find my way back. (On camera): Do you hear me, Michael?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

SAVIDGE: Michael?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

SAVIDGE (voice-over): Even in daylight I was unable to do what an exceptional 7-year-old managed to do in the dark.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Wow. Unbelievable.

Martin Savidge, thank you very much for that.

Joining he m now, Larry Wilkins, who found Sailor Gutzler on his doorstep after the plane crash that killed her whole family.

Good evening to you, Mr. Wilkins. Walk me through, will you, what happened on Friday night?

WILKINS: About 6:30 come a knock on the door and a little girl standing there with a bloody nose, legs all bleeding, crying, and told me that her parents were dead and that she was in a plane crash and the plane was upside down. And asked me, said, can I stay here? So I let her in the house and laid her down on the couch and got her as comfortable as I possibly could and called 911.

And the police officer was close. He got here within 10 minutes. But after I called 911, I got a washcloth and wiped the blood off her face and her legs. And the policeman got there.

I couldn't get the information I needed from her to call some kin folks or something. But you know, I've only seen a plane crash on TV. Never seen one in person. No noise. No fire. You know? And --

LEMON: So you didn't hear it?

WILKINS: I thought probably she'd been in -- I thought she'd been in a car wreck, you know.

LEMON: Yes.

WILKINS: Nobody heard it.

LEMON: Nobody heard it.

WILKINS: Nobody knew -- nobody knew the plane was down until I called 911.

LEMON: And she was in bad condition, you say. That she was bleeding and -- but she was conscious?

WILKINS: Yes. All superficial. LEMON: Yes.

WILKINS: Yes. She was conscious. She walked three quarters of a mile altogether, I'm sure.

LEMON: Yes.

WILKINS: But for a 7-year-old girl she was very composed.

LEMON: The entire time even waiting on police she was fine?

WILKINS: Yes.

LEMON: Yes.

WILKINS: Yes, she was crying. I was trying to get some information from her to -- maybe I could call her or -- a relative or something to get them on the way because I knew she had told me she was from Nashville, I don't know, which is probably 150 miles from here anyway. But I couldn't get any information out of her that I needed. She didn't know phone numbers and stuff like that, you know.

LEMON: How cold was it, Mr. Wilkins, that night?

WILKINS: I'm sorry?

LEMON: How cold was it that Friday night?

WILKINS: It was below 40. Between 35 and 40 degrees. Had a little bit of a mist. So the little girl was I would say damp, not wet, but she was damp all over. And of course she was barefooted. She had one sock on one foot. Tremendous little girl.

LEMON: How do you think she was able to find your house?

WILKINS: Security light is the only thing I can think of. I've got a security light out here. And from what I understand her father had give her some survival training a little bit because they evidently flew around quite a bit. And I'd say -- this is pure speculation. But I felt like she probably seen that light and headed toward it.

LEMON: I understand that you have two dogs that you believe may have helped Sailor? Why do you think that?

WILKINS: Well, because one of the little dogs that I've just had about three weeks, and I think he'd probably been mistreated. He wouldn't have anything to do with anybody. But soon as she got in, my cats and my dogs was all over her. Including him. And I found out later that she really, really liked him because she had a Dachshund.

And it was amazing to me. That little dog, I said, that was abused, he won't come to anybody but me. But he come to her just immediately.

LEMON: I understand that she wanted you to go with her to the hospital once the ambulance got there, but you couldn't. WILKINS: That's true. The EMT said that I wouldn't be allowed to, I

was not a relative. And I said, well, I'll just go to the hospital. And he said you won't do any good. You can't get in. Because I wasn't a relative, you know. Excuse me.

LEMON: Larry Wilkins, thank you.

WILKINS: You're welcome, sir.

LEMON: I want to bring in now Ken Druck. He is an expert on traumatic loss and the author of "Real Rules of Life."

It's really remarkable, obviously. Everyone is calling it a miracle story and it appears to be that. How was Sailor able to walk away from the plane crash, seek help? Was it adrenaline? Was it shock? What was it?

KEN DRUCK, TRAUMATIC LOSS EXPERT, AUTHOR, "REAL RULES OF LIFE": You know, don, it's shock. We're constructed in an amazing way as human beings. And we go into shock. It's the same shock that I was in and able to give my own daughter's eulogy 19 years ago. But we go into a state of shock and it's like we're encased in this numbness and we're able to do things that even later on we can't even imagine accomplishing.

And I think she's in a state of shock. And what happens of course is that over time the shock begins to wear off and the reality of what really happened sets in.

LEMON: Yes. I wanted to ask you this -- how long does that last? Because she obviously had the strength and the wherewithal to get to Mr. Wilkins' house. But sometimes when that happens, when you feel that you're out of danger, your body begins to slow down. That's why I asked him, was she conscious.

DRUCK: Yes.

LEMON: Even waiting on authorities to come. Because sometimes you get there and you feel like OK, you know, I've mustered the strength to get this far and then the shock will go away.

DRUCK: Well, it comes in small doses. And the fact that she's a child also developmentally there are things that she's not going to experience now that she might experience a year or two, three or five from now, that she's -- that she's able to wrap her mind and heart around, that she's not going to deal with right now. So it's going to be an ongoing story as it is for all sole survivors or people who've suffered traumatic losses or been in accidents like this.

And so we know she has her immediate challenges and then she's going to have a whole other layers of challenge coming in the future.

LEMON: At 7 years old, and because you've worked with survivors of plane crashes before, at 7 years old are you able to comprehend such a tragedy? DRUCK: You know, you're able -- you know something happened. She has

all these images in her mind of -- you know, I think at one point she said, I didn't know if they were sleeping. She was in survival mode truly and it all probably feels very surreal to her. Like somebody get the remote control and change the channel because I don't like this show. And she's beginning to sense that my goodness, I'm with my grandparents, everything has changed.

I'm in a new normal life. Everything has turned inside out. I'm feeling things that I don't even have names for. And there are a lot of people around me worried about me and trying to take care of me, and it's all probably very surreal. And the reason why so many survivors say that privacy is such an incredibly important element is that establishing that sense of new normalcy requires a certain element of quiet, of calm, of establishing that new normal, a routine. And normalizing this new life that she's living in.

LEMON: We certainly wish her the best. Her family as well.

Thank you very much, Ken Druck.

DRUCK: Yes. Thank you, Don.

LEMON: We've got a lot more to get to tonight.

When we come right back, are some of the officers patrolling the streets of New York City conducting a deliberate job slowdown? We're going to talk about that.

We're going to take a look at the latest arrest statistics and talk to a former commissioner of the NYPD.

Plus the latest on the fatal flight of AirAsia 8501. Has the plane's tail been found, or is it another false lead?

And the Brunch battleground. Why activists are targeting a New York institution.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Tonight the NYPD and the mayor at war. Some people are asking whether there is a deliberate job slowdown by NYPD officers. One official is telling CNN that for the second week in a row there has been a steep decrease in the number of arrests and summonses.

Officers are angry and upset about the murders of two colleagues two weeks ago. But is there a connection?

Joining me now is Howard Safir, he's a former NYPD commissioner who is now the CEO of VRI Technologies.

Good evening to you, Commissioner.

HOWARD SAFIR, FORMER NYPD COMMISSIONER: Good evening.

LEMON: You know, for the second week in a row, I want to read these numbers. This is the NYPD stats that show a significant decrease in the arrests and the summonses. The total arrests are down 55.9 percent as compared to the same week last year.

You're the former commissioner of New York City. Are cops intentionally not doing their jobs, do you believe?

SAFIR: I think cops are being overly cautious. I think there is a rift between the mayor and the rank-and-file of the NYPD and it really needs to be fixed. And the way that it gets fixed is the mayor has got to convince the rank-and-file that he doesn't believe that the NYPD is a racist, brutal police department which it is not. It's the best police department in the world. It's the most diverse police department.

And as long as police officers believe that the mayor is not behind them and not supporting them, they're going to be very hesitant to go above and beyond what's minimally required.

LEMON: Do you -- when you look at these numbers, the parking summonses down 92 percent, as we said, total arrests down, 55.9 percent. Traffic summonses down 92 percent, criminal summonses down 91.5 percent.

Are these numbers disturbing to you? Do you feel like cops are not making arrests? Should they -- should they be making more arrests?

(CROSSTALK)

SAFIR: It's very disturbing. They should be making more arrests. Over the last 20 years the NYPD has caused a renaissance to take place in New York. It's the safest large city in America. And what's important is that the mayor and the PD get together and resolve this. I mean, let's face it. The mayor is not going away. The police officers are not going away. The only people who will suffer are the eight million residents of New York City. So this has got to be fixed.

LEMON: All right.

Commissioner, stay with us because I want to bring in now Charles Ogletree, the Jesse Climenko professor of law at -- at Harvard Law School. Also Charles Blow, CNN political commentator and op-ed columnist for the "New York Times."

Thank you, all, gentlemen, for joining us here. Of course the commissioner is going to join this conversation as well.

To you, Charles Ogletree, these numbers are pretty dramatic. The idea that cops are not making their arrests. If true, what do you make of these?

CHARLES OGLETREE, JESSE CLIMENKO PROFESSOR OF LAW, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: Well, it's disturbing, for one reason, because the police are there to protect and serve everybody. But it's also understandable because what they're doing is protesting the killing of two police officers, the murder of two police officers, even though the person took his own life as well.

And I think that it's going to be a while and the mayor has to be the first to say, I'm sorry, what I said. What I said didn't make any sense at all. I retract my statements. I support the police in what they're doing. And the police need to in a sense have a relationship with the mayor as well.

I think it's going to be a long time. It's not going to be an easy thing to go over, an easy thing to resolve. I think this thing could go on for weeks and months and maybe even years.

LEMON: So you think the mayor should apologize?

OGLETREE: Absolutely. He has to. Because the point is that he said some things that are troubling. They were understandable at the time, but they're troubling because they in a sense -- he is the person who has a relation with the police officer.

I like what Bill Bratton said. He said, you know, it's the time to grieve, not a time to file a grievance. And I think that Bill Bratton, who's been a police officer, I've seen him here -- here in Washington, I've seen him also in New York, and also in other places as well. And I think that he is in a sense the middle man trying to make all this happen.

I think that paying attention to Bill Bratton is going to be very helpful. He and his wife, who is a lawyer, is going to make a big difference in making New York be the city that it should be, the city that heals everybody, that's open for everybody, black, white, young, old, left, right. It doesn't matter. Everybody should be a part of the city of New York in this renaissance that's going on right now.

LEMON: Charles Blow, do you think the mayor should apologize?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know what the apology would be for. I mean, I'm really scratching my head thinking about what the apology would be for. That because he had the temerity to say that he had a conversation with his son who is mixed race and talking to him about how he should interact with the police? Should he apologize for allowing protesters to protest in the city?

Maybe you should -- you could say that they should not have been able to take over streets. And I can even -- I think you could make a strong argument about that. But allowed a space for protesters to be. Other than that what is this -- I don't even understand this concept of saying that the mayor is somehow responsible for these two officers being dead. And that is such an outrageous thing for anyone to have said from the very beginning.

And there is an actual person who had blood on his hands. He is the person who pulled the trigger and killed those two officers. And his name never gets mentioned. And people keep saying that somehow that the mayor has done something extraordinary that would cause people to say that he has caused the rift between the police and the executive branch of the city of New York. That is outrageous. And it's an outrageous statement and it is not supportable. It is absolutely not supportable.

LEMON: But Charles --

BLOW: What you have to understand, however -- wait a minute. What you have to understand, however, is this is a political battle. This is not simply a battle of kind of cultures of police and the culture of the mayor's office. This is a political battle between two political entities. And when you look at it that way, when you look at it and say that the police still do not have a contract if I understand that correctly, and that they are in contract negotiations, if you look at it and say that this police department was responsible for stop-and-frisk and liked it and the mayor basically ran on a platform to get rid of stop-and-frisk or to stop its abuse.

LEMON: Is this --

BLOW: And that is -- when you look at it as a political collision of these two forces, then it makes a lot more sense. But this idea --

LEMON: Howard --

BLOW: -- that the mayor should come (INAUDIBLE) because the police are acting like children is extraordinary.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Charles, I've got to get to the other panel.

But, Howard Safir, is this a political battle?

SAFIR: It is not a political battle. This is a battle about how police officers feel about the support of their chief executive. This is not about stop-and-frisk. And stop-and-frisk is what made New York the safest large city in America. And this is not about a racist, brutal police department.

This is about a mayor who has made it pretty clear that he is not supportive of the police. And if he wants to change the dynamics here and make sure that New York City stays the safest large city in America, he has got to get the support of the police.

Mayors throughout history in New York who have not had the support of the police have been very unsuccessful. And I think that's exactly what will happen to Mayor de Blasio unless he gets support of the rank-and-file.

LEMON: All right, everyone. Hold your thoughts. We're going to have much more on this.

Coming up, protesters against the police tactics have a new way to express themselves. Disrupting Sunday brunch. Is it effective? Could it be illegal? That's next.

Also ahead tonight, top attorney Alan Dershowitz fights back against allegations of sexual abuse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ATTORNEY: But you don't go after the lawyer and falsely charge him with a sex act which you know he didn't commit because you just have to look at the evidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Protesters in New York City as well as on the West Coast have targeted of all things brunch. The movement is being called Black Brunch on social media, and it turned up at several restaurants over the weekend, where protester interrupted diners to read off the names of unarmed black men called in confrontations -- killed, excuse me, in confrontations with police.

So joining me now is John Cardillo. He is a former New York officer, New York City police officer and -- New York police officer and he's also an on-air analyst.

So thank you for joining us. I want to show -- can we put the picture up of what you -- you tweeted out this weekend. You tweeted out this picture of you with a gun, right? Talking about, I'm trying to enjoy my eggs, right? And then you said black lives matter.

What did you mean by that? Black Brunch NYC, rather. What do you mean by that?

JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE OFFICER: Well, first, thanks for the invite, Don. I wanted to show hypocrisy. And what I was doing clearly, obviously, I don't believe we should use firearms to counter First Amendment protest. What I was trying to do was put something sensational along the internet that I thought would get some traction. Didn't realize it would get this much traction. But I wanted to stoke the fire of controversy to start a debate about the hypocrisy of the protester set.

And what I've been seeing is this permissive attitude toward looting and rioting and the attacks on police officers on the Brooklyn Bridge with no outrage, but I post a staged photograph taken in my home office with an unloaded firearm under a controlled safe conditions and the outrage is just off the charts.

I mean, I become public enemy number one. Vitriol is spewed at me. Hatred, threats. My e-mail's blowing up with death threats and threats of physical harm. And I just found it all very hypocritical. And I think I've said -- I proved a little social experiment I set out to prove.

LEMON: You said you thought they should be charged with criminal trespass?

CARDILLO: I thought in certain cases if the restaurateurs felt they should they should. I think that no patrons were interviewed and clearly this could have risen to the level of harassment, potentially misdemeanor harassment, and I think that an investigation is warranted. I absolutely do.

LEMON: All right. Let's bring in our panel back in. And John is going to stay with us. I want to bring back in Charles Ogletree, Charles Blow and the former commissioner of New York City, Howard Safir.

Commissioner, could they have been charged with criminal trespassing? Did these protesters break the law?

SAFIR: I don't know the specifics of the event. But if they were there not patronizing the place, if the owner wanted them out of the restaurant and they did not comply and they were interfering with the rights of others, yes, they could be charged with trespass.

LEMON: Charles Ogletree, do you think that this brunch, the black brunch, the protest, do you think it was effective?

OGLETREE: I think it was effective. And I have a little worry about people being thrown out of restaurants. There's a thing called the first amendment. And, we may not like it applied to individuals. But individuals have been protesting for decades. There were whites protesting against blacks going to by a room, was at the end of segregation. And the whole idea is they have the right to protest, they have the right to be orderly, but -- the blacks understand that that's what the constitution permits. The people can protest. They can make as much noise as they want to make as long as it's not disrupting the place there. And I think that we have to respect the first amendment, even if we find areas where we disagree with it.

LEMON: Charles Blow, do you think this was the most effective approach? We're talking about, you know, the right to protest. Do you think this was the most effective approach?

CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I don't think we have to couch it as most effective, right? I don't think we have to get the clearest, best way to protest. What I think we are seeing, however, is Millennials in particular engaging the system and saying, we want to be heard. It's very different from the way that we -- you know, the people of my age grew up thinking about protests and social justice and demanding social justice, which you had a leader and the thing -- it was very top down. This is very organic. This is kind of a new way for people to express themselves.

I think we have to kind of understand that it may -- may not be perfect, this will may not be perfect, the next will may not be perfect, they're just all efforts of people wanting to be heard and wanting to raise an issue. And in that regard, I think that it is in a way really important for us to register it. I don't -- you know, maybe, if you're in a restaurant and the owner says you that need to leave, you need to leave. That's the way -- that's the way it's gonna be. If you're disrupting customers and you're not patronizing and they say you can't be here, then you're gonna have to do that. However, what I think we're seeing is just step by step different kinds of protests, people, young people wanting to be heard. And if you look back at the civil rights movement, those were young people, most of them -- many of them were kids. LEMON: Yeah.

BLOW: And we see the same thing happening again. And I think that's really important.

LEMON: But John, you said of -- this that you didn't -- you thought the comparison to the civil rights movement, you thought that that was unfair, John.

JOHN CARDILLO, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT OFFICER, BLOGGER, ON- AIR ANALYST: Yeah, I think it's ludicrous because, these protesters are able to patronize these restaurants. Quite frankly, I think it's demeaning to what I consider heroes of the civil rights movement and, you know, people took offense to my photo. I would have been the first guy sitting at those lunch counters protecting those people who were being discriminated against for basic human rights. I think it's quite disrespectful to them to compare their struggle to a bunch of what I -- I think many are rich college kids, and a lot of the protesters I see are white, Asian, light-skinned Hispanic. Most of the protesters that I've seen aren't necessarily African-American. But to compare them to people that weren't allowed to eat in those restaurants -- is to me just a silly comparison. And if these protesters...

BLOW: What's demeaning is actually posting a photo with the #BlackBrunch and a gun pointed at us.

LEMON: You're being called racist because of this photo.

BLOW: That's actually demeaning.

CARDILLO: What's demeaning? What's demeaning?

BLOW: That's actually is ridiculous, and the idea that you would come out on television and...

CARDILLO: What's demeaning, the idea that first amendment --

LEMON: One at a time.

BLOW: Try to say that it was a social experiment?

CARDILLO: What I'm trying to say...

BLOW: It wasn't a social experiment.

CARDILLO: Oh, it was a social experiment.

BLOW: You were behaving you that wanted to behave.

CARDILLO: Wrong. You want to make a photograph --

BLOW: And people called you out on it and it was outrageous.

CARDILO: And I defended mine...

BLOW: And no one would accept that... (CROSSTALK)

LEMON: One at a time, please. Let him finish, John, and then you can respond. Go ahead.

BLOW: People what it to have a dialogue and you know better than that. And we're not gonna sit here and let you say that this was some sort of social experiment and it is demeaning to call these new protesters to compare them to --

CARDILLO: Well, I'm now. I'm now. First of all, it's not your job.

BLOW: You would have been the first one sitting at a counter with your gun.

CARDILLO: Yes, I would have been...

BLOW: Protecting other people.

CARDILLO: I would have been.

BLOW: You're definitely -- you're...

LEMON: Let him respond, Charles.

CARDILLO: Why don't you...

LEMON: Let him respond.

CARDILLO: Why don't --

BLOW: Your very presence here is demeaning.

CARDILLO: Charles, Charles, why don't you just keep speaking over me...

BLOW: You're very presence is demeaning.

CARDILLO: Why don't you, just speak over me because you're afraid of my response.

BLOW: No, I'm not afraid of anything, sir.

CARDILLO: You are afraid of my response.

BLOW: I'm not afraid of anything.

CARDILLO: I'm not afraid of your (inaudible)

BLOW: No, I'm not afraid of anything, sir.

CARDILLO: You're -- you're afraid of a photograph. But you had nothing to say about looters, rioters, and people abusing New York City police officers. So --

BLOW: Wait, have you -- wait. Have you read my columns? CARDILLO: Please. Please.

BLOW: Have you read my columns?

CARDILLO: And I've also read...

BLOW: This is -- this is when facts...

CARDILLO: The apologetic nature...

BLOW: Fly in the paper, people want to say whatever they want to say --

CARDILLO: No, no, no, no, no. Charles...

BLOW: And say that no one had anything to say...

CARDILLO: You wanna let someone to speak...

BLOW: About looter or rioters --

CARDILLO: Wrong.

LEMON: Charles, let him finish and I promise you I'll get you -- I'll let have a rebuttal.

(CROSSTALK)

BLOW: People are being killed, which is a complete lie.

CARDILLO: No. Charles.

BLOW: But you want to be able to say that...

CARDILLO: No, no, no, no, no. See...

BLOW: As if it's your turn to speak and then no one is gonna challenge that.

CARDILLO: It doesn't work for me.

BLOW: It does amaze (ph) on what you're doing because you haven't read my columns...

CARDILLO: I will shut...

LEMON: One at a time...

CRDILLO: You down.

LEMON: Or I'm gonna have to cut you guys off.

BLOW: You have no clue what I have written in those columns, and if you did...

CARDILLO: Charles, I would shut you down. BLOW: If you have those columns...

LEMON: OK.

BLOW: You would know that you're lying.

LEMON: We're getting nowhere because we can't -- when you guys speak over each other the viewer doesn't -- it's not fair to the viewer, so --

CARDILLO: Well, Charles can respect --

LEMON: Go ahead, John, and I will then -- I will let Charles rebut. Go ahead, John.

CARDILLO: First of all, Charles, I have read your columns. And in some instances you have been critical of the protesters. But in many others, you have legitimized what I find to be irresponsible and inappropriate behavior. And don't sit here and tell me that a photograph, a first amendment-protected photograph staged in a controlled environment comes anywhere near actual crime occurring and actual real people being injured, maimed, and in some cases killed. Their businesses being destroyed, it is simply ludicrous and quite frankly, you're far too intelligent to make that argument. Anybody is. It was a photograph. And in the last 24 hours my photograph hasn't shot anyone, hurt anyone, maimed anyone, or stole from anyone. So please, stop the feigning this fear and being so aghast at a photograph. Quite frankly it sounds ridiculous.

LEMON: OK. Go ahead, Charles.

BLOW: Thank you. Thank you for admitting that you were lying before, when you said that I had said nothing about the looting. Thank you for admitting on television --

CARDILLO: It wasn't a lie.

BLOW: It was a lie. You said that I -- you've read it and I've written it. It's a lie. There's no gray area between a true and a lie. You either were telling the truth or a lie.

LEMON: OK.

BLOW: You basically admitted you were lying.

LEMON: Yeah, we've got much more to come. Stand by, everyone. Coming up, Oprah on the hot seat, this is a pretty hot panel as well. What she said that has some people up in arms tonight. We'll be right back.

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LEMON: Welcome back, everyone. When Oprah Winfrey speaks, well, people listen. She has been talking about the recent protests against police tactics in New York and around the country, and some people don't like what she's saying. So I'm back now with John Cardillo, Charles Ogletree, and Charles

Blow. Welcome back, everyone. Oprah recently said the protests in Ferguson and New York City lacked leadership. Here's what she told People magazine and she said, "What I'm looking for is some kind of leadership to come out to say, this time to say, this is what we want, this is what has to change, and these are the steps that we need to take to make these changes, and this is what we're willing to do to get it." Three weeks ago, though, at the red carpet for Selma, she told me the very same thing. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPRAH WINFREY, MEDIA MOGUL: When you see this film, you understand how strategic and how rigorous the discipline was, and how there was an intentional goal set by the leadership to accomplish the right to vote. And they were relentless in their efforts to do that, but there was a strategy behind it. It wasn't just, we're out marching but we don't know what we're marching for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, Charles Ogletree, does she have a point? Why would she be criticized for saying that?

OGLETREE: I think she has a point and she has a right to say what she has to say. But she's wrong. I mean, the reality is that all the movements that brought us to where we are now are movements that were resisted by a lot of folks and that they were very effective. Dr. King liked to get arrested. He believed in marching with individuals. We had to change the law completely. And I think that the people in Ferguson and other places are trying to change the law. Make the law work for people. And you think about Ferguson, here's a community that's almost 2/3 African-American. 3 of the 53 members of the police force are black, only one of the city council members is black. You see kids dropping out of school, not going to school. We need some leadership, we need somebody to do that and I think what she's talking about is important. But I think we need to take control of it and make sure we get people involved in making cities better, making schools better, making jobs available...

LEMON: But you saying --

OGLETREE: Making people understand how to build a community.

LEMON: But professor, she seems to -- to want the Ferguson protesters to be more like the Selma protesters. Do you think there would be fewer problems if these protests were more organized? Do you think that is what she's saying, is that the more nuanced version of what she's saying?

OGLETREE: Here's the problem, Don. What's more organized? I mean, what is she referring to? The reality is that organization is based on being active and being available and being willing to protest and making people do be able to do that. And I think that her concern is misplaced with the people who are doing what they want to do to make themselves be heard, to make people understand what they're protesting, and to make sure that even if they're arrested that people understand that they have a right to protest, a right to demonstrate, a right to oppose the power of the state, a right to oppose the power of the city, and we have to respect that.

LEMON: Yeah. So here's the crux (ph) of the criticism. Some of the movement's organizers, or the people involved took to social media to criticize her, saying that activism has changed drastically since the 1960s. Here's what one person says, "So does @Oprah expect someone to raise their hand at protests when they ask, "Who is your leader?" That messiah style of leadership is not us." Charles Blow, do you think she deserves this criticism?

BLOW: Well, I think that -- commenter is right, that this is kind of a -- kind of a social media approach to social justice where there is not a particular point person. And I think, you know, we -- our generation had our moment and this is a new generation's moment. And I think we have to kind of understand that and be respectful of that either way.

And so, I think that they're right to say that this is a different time. And in fact, one other thing that's really important to remember here about saying exactly what you want. Part of what the new movements are doing is basically raising awareness around very kind of touchy issues more so than saying that there is a specific policy change that needs to be enacted. So, you know the -- civil rights movement, there were actual laws on the book. There were explicit racist and explicitly racist laws. And you could say we want these to be removed, we want access to the ballot, we want to not be afraid of the police, you know, or the clan or whomever in our neighborhoods and we want to be protected from that. This is a very different thing. People are now saying we want to raise consciousness about systemic and subconscious bias.

LEMNON: OK.

BLOW: And no one has -- no one can turn...

LEMON: John.

BLOW: Away from that.

LEMON: Quickly. I know you want to get in on this, quickly, because I have to get to break.

CARDILLO: Well, look, I think it will surprise the audience. I actually agree with both Charles Blow and the professor. Where I do disagree with them, though is, is from a tactical management standpoint. Any movement needs a definable leader to call the shots, and I think this movement is lacking that. But I also criticized the tea party in a column I did on the Blaze for exactly the same thing. I think that's where the tea party failed to become an effective movement. And so, I do agree with Oprah Winfrey insofar as her looking at it through the lens of a successful businesswoman, that there is no definable CEO, Chief Operating Officer, tactician, and strategist...

LEMON: Yeah. CARDILLO: To help move this movement forward.

LEMON: Alright. Thank you, gentlemen, appreciate it.

Weather conditions in the Java Sea have hampered the search for AirAsia flight 8501. But, it's Tuesday morning in Indonesia. Are we getting closer to some answers? When we go live to Indonesia, next.

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LEMON: It's already late morning Tuesday in Indonesia. Let's get an update on the search for AirAsia flight 8501 in the Java Sea. CNN's Gary Tuchman is live for us in Surabaya. What's the very latest on the search, Gary?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, so far search conditions are relatively good, perhaps the best that we've seen since we've been here. But every day around midday, and right now we're closing in on midday, it starts deteriorating. But importantly, divers are in the water as we speak. That's very crucial because, we are being told this is not a surprise, but we have just been told that the feeling is they are not going to find many more bodies on the water.

They believe that most if not all of the remaining bodies are still strapped to the seats in the aircraft on the bottom of the Java Sea and the feeling is that only divers will be able to get to it. It's only about 100 feet deep down, but the problem is when divers got down this weekend they said the visibility was zero. They're hoping the visibility is better today, and we should have a report as the day goes on if divers have been successful not only finding those bodies but also finding those black boxes, which so far have eluded them.

LEMON: CNN's Gary Tuchman. Gary, thank you very much. Joining me now David Soucie, CNN's safety analyst and author of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370, and also Mary Schiavo, the former inspector general of the Department of Transportation, she's now an attorney for victims of transportation accidents. David, I want to get your reaction to what Gary just reported, they don't think they'll find any more bodies, they believe most of the bodies -- remaining bodies are strapped still inside of the aircraft.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: We could make a conclusion on that. Actually, what I think is going on is that the bodies are still down there strapped in the seats. What they tells us is the aircraft may still have a large piece down there as opposed to if it had broken up into many little parts we'd have fewer -- or more bodies on top and fewer trapped down below. So, that may give us a clue as to what they should be looking for under the -- under the ocean.

LEMOMN: You -- you know, I had you on here last week, David, and you said that the search and rescue teamed said that they found the plane by sonar, but now teams are still looking. So, what happened? What do we know about the portions of the plane that have been found?

SOUCIE: Well, one is just the ability to get down there and verify what it is, Don. But, as that night we talked a little bit about this -- that Dave Gallo had mentioned to us that, we need to be cautious about what we say is down there because there's a lot of debris in this area of the ocean. There have been -- there have been wars fought there, there are ships that are sunken. Aircraft actually that have been downed in that area as well. So, just saying that we've seen a large piece of metal could just be just another piece of another ship from years gone past.

LEMON: Yeah, and we warned the viewers about that last week. Mary, you were here with us as well, your reaction to Gary Tuchman's news.

MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION: Well, and -- you know, it's kind of a repeat, there was a number of years ago, Adam Air Flight that went down in the Java Sea, and that too was very difficult to find. And in fact, pieces of the plane and remains, other parts of the aircraft washed up on the shore. And then that helped them many, many weeks afterward to help trace back. So, while it's more shallow than other places where searchers are used to looking, it's proved to be somewhat elusive in the past as well.

LEMON: As I've been watching the reports throughout -- since we have been on last, there's been some, you know, consternation about whether the pingers are working or not. Whether they're getting signals from the pingers, from the black box. What's going on, Mary?

SCHIAVO: Well, you know, in -- in many cases, I think there's an estimate of about a third of the time pingers don't work for various reasons. Sometimes the battery malfunctions, sometimes the pingers are damaged or knocked off in the accident sequence and sometimes they're just positioned under wreckage such that they don't pick up the sound unless they're literally right on top of it. So, it could any a factor of any of those or they just haven't gotten to the part yet. But when they get to the big piece of the plane, hopefully they'll still be there. But, in many accidents they just don't work.

LEMON; Yeah, and just -- you know, and finding the bodies, of course, that is their first priority. But this black box, I mean, that's the most important, David, outside of finding the bodies, that's gonna tell them what happened to this plane.

SOUCIE: That's right. And the combination of the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder together is what paints the whole picture because you see not only what happened to the aircraft but you get a glimpse into what was going on in the decision-making of the pilots, and that can give you a real benefit as far as looking forward and trying to prevent these accidents in the future because, now you can start to understand the psychology and help the pilots understand things better as they get into difficult situations like this and thunderstorms.

LEMON: David, Mary, thank you very much. Coming up, the bizarre billionaire sex scandal, Britain's Prince Andrew and now Alan Dershowitz, facing accusations of sex with an underage girl. They both vehemently deny the charges. And tonight, an angry Alan Dershowitz is here to defend himself.

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