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CNN TONIGHT
Charles Barkley Speaks His Mind; More Allegations Against Bill Cosby
Aired December 2, 2014 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES BARKLEY, FORMER NBA PLAYER: The notion that white cops are out there just killing black people, that's ridiculous. It's just flat-out ridiculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN TONIGHT, I'm Don Lemon. And that is the always outspoken Charles Barkley. There's a lot more where that came from and you're going to hear from him in just a moment.
Plus, exclusive, Michael Brown's cousin, what he says about the grand jury's decision may surprise you.
Also shocking charges of rape culture at one of the country's elite universities. Are brutal assaults being swept under the rug, and are students in danger at their own schools?
We've got a whole lot to get to tonight but I want to begin with Charles Barkley. My CNN colleague Brooke Baldwin is here, and Brooke, you just sat down with Sir Charles for a no-holds-barred interview. His only interview about the subject on television.
Let's take a listen.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR, CNN NEWSROOM: Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BALDWIN: Let's just begin with the news of the day that Michael Brown's stepdad is being investigated for saying eight different times burn this B down the night the grand jury decision was made public.
LOUIS HEAD, MICHAEL BROWN'S STEPDAD: Burn this bitch down. Burn this mother (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down.
BROWN: And he's being investigated for inciting a riot. Do you think that is fair? Should police be pursuing that?
BARKLEY: No, I think under the circumstances this has just been an awful incident for everybody, and I just think that they just cloud the discussion. You know, one of the problems with this entire situation, there's just so much noise going on, you never get to the crux of the issue you need to be discussing. So no, I don't think they should pursue charges against him.
BALDWIN: What about all the walkouts and all the protests? And you've definitely caught some.
BARKLEY: Yes.
BALDWIN: You know, slack for calling some people --
BARKLEY: I don't call them slack. Number one, I haven't gotten any slack. I don't do social media.
BALDWIN: I know you don't.
BARKLEY: And I don't sit around and watch what everybody think about me. I have no --
BALDWIN: The scumbag comment? Respond to that.
BARKLEY: Yes. When you're looting people's property that's what you are. That's against the law. It's not your property. You don't want people to do it to your house. You know, you need to go back to the stepdad, he don't want people to burn down his house. So it's all just a bunch of noise at this point. But anybody who walks out peacefully and who protest peacefully that's what this country was built on.
I have no problem with that whatsoever. But to be burning people's property, burning police cars, looting people's stores, that's 100 percent ridiculous.
BALDWIN: Do you think that we would be seeing all of that, had this been a black police officer? Had Darren Wilson been black? And all the facts remaining the same, we would still have a slain 18-year-old. Would the outrage be there?
BARKLEY: No, because we have a racial issue in this country. We've always had a racial issue in this country, and the biggest problem with it is we never discuss race until something bad happens. We never have meaningful dialogue over a cold beer when things are going good, but what happens is, everybody -- when something bad happens everybody has a tribe mentality, everybody wants to protect their own tribe, whether they're right or wrong.
BALDWIN: What do you mean when they're right and wrong?
BARKLEY: We all got bad characters in our group, we all got bad characters. So my grandmother taught me you judge everybody on their own individual merit. You don't care what any other jackass has to say. You don't put everybody together. Black is not always right and white is not always wrong.
You got some bad apples who are taking advantage of the situation, that's the point. You got -- and that's unfortunate because this is a serious -- somebody lost their child. And this is something we need to seriously sit back and discuss and figure out what happened, what went wrong, but I'm going to say this. The notion that white cops are out there just killing black people, that's ridiculous.
It's just flat-out ridiculous. And I challenge any black person to try to make that point. This notion that cops -- cops are actually awesome. You know, they're the only thing in the ghetto from -- between this place being the Wild, Wild West. So this notion that cops are out there just killing black men is ridiculous. And I hate that narrative coming out of the -- out of this entire situation.
And the thing that bothers me the most, Brooke, is the notion that all these people are standing here saying if they indict him, they were already going to riot.
BALDWIN: No matter if there was an indictment or not?
BARKLEY: No question. Because your mind does not go from let me sit here and listen and let me go and just start burning up police cars and tearing down buildings. That just doesn't happen.
BALDWIN: You know, I'm hearing so much from different people, friends, people who come on my show, African-Americans saying listen, Brooke, you know, I was taught as a young age, I have different rules than you do when I deal with police and there is a lot of -- there is a lot of getting that off people's chests right now because of what happened in Ferguson. There's a lot of anger, there's a lot of frustration.
What can we as a country do with that, this energy right now?
BARKLEY: Well, first of all, we can open a dialogue and I think that's probably what I was -- what I did, was open a dialogue.
Brooke, in fairness, there's some black people out there who are crooks and when the police come to your neighborhood, it's a tense situation. The only time you interact with the cops is when things are going wrong. That's the only time we ever interact with the cops, but first of all, we, we, we as black people, we got a lot of crooks. We can't just wait until something like this happened.
And let me go back to the notion of white cops killing black people. What about the case we're waiting for the results to come down from the grand jury for Eric Garner here in New York.
BARKLEY: Sure.
BALDWIN: Right? I mean, it's one thing in Ferguson, there are some audio, but you see the video. You see these cops surround him.
BARKLEY: Yes, yes.
BALDWIN: And he -- it was a homicide. He dies --
BARKLEY: I don't think that was a homicide. I don't think that -- I think it --
BALDWIN: What was that? It was a chokehold, you see it. BARKLEY: Well, I think the cops are trying to arrest him, and they
got a little aggressive. I think excessive force, you know, something like that. But to go right to murder -- Brooke, when the cops are trying to arrest you, if you fight back, things go wrong. That doesn't mean -- I don't think they were trying to kill Mr. Garner. You know. He was a big man. And they tried to get him down.
BALDWIN: You know, I'm hearing so much from different people, friends, people who come on my show, African-Americans saying listen, Brooke, you know, I was taught as a young age, I have different rules than you do when I deal with police and there is a lot of -- there is a lot of getting that off people's chests right now because of what happened in Ferguson. There's a lot of anger, there's a lot of frustration.
What can we as a country do with that, this energy right now?
BARKLEY: Well, first of all, we can open a dialogue and I think that's probably what I was -- what I did, was open a dialogue.
Brooke, in fairness, there's some black people out there who are crooks and when the police come to your neighborhood, it's a tense situation. The only time you interact with the cops is when things are going wrong. That's the only time we ever interact with the cops, but first of all, we, we, we as black people, we got a lot of crooks. We can't just wait until something like this happened.
We have to look at our self in the mirror. There's a reason they racially profile us at times. Sometimes it's wrong but sometimes it's right. So to act and sit there and act like we hold no responsibility for some of this stuff, that's disingenuous.
BALDWIN: How can the president help this? The first African-American president. You know, he held meetings at the White House this week. Should he be going to Ferguson?
BARKLEY: No. This -- you know, and that's another thing that annoys me about this whole situation, Brooke. Every time something happens in the black community, we have the same cast of sad characters. We don't have to have Al Sharpton go there. We don't have to have -- and I'm not disparaging Mr. Crump. I know he represented -- when it happened before with Trayvon's family, God bless them.
But we have the same sad sack of black characters. We need some strong black men in St. Louis to stand up, and say, hey, let's handle this situation.
BALDWIN: Where are they?
BARKLEY: That bothers me. I guarantee you, listen, if something happened in my life, I got this, I can handle it. I can handle -- I don't need people coming like, I feel like I can handle the situation. I don't have to have people coming from New York and coming Florida. I'm a strong black man and I can handle this.
BALDWIN: And we move up Ferguson. Ray Rice. After we've seen video, the elevator in Atlantic City, punching his then fiancee, knocking her out cold, we now know that Ray Rice is eligible to play.
BARKLEY: Yes.
BALDWIN: Back in the NFL.
BARKLEY: Yes.
BALDWIN: Do you think a team is going to pick him up?
BARKLEY: I do not.
BALDWIN: Why?
BARKLEY: Just too hot right now. Ray Rice made an awful mistake. And I'm hoping somebody got the courage. It is going to take courage. I hope somebody got the courage to give him another chance because he deserves another chance.
BALDWIN: Why does he deserve a second chance? He knocked his then fiancee out cold.
BARKLEY: We've hard players who killed people who get second chances. You can never hit a woman. I'm going to repeat that. You can never hit a woman. And let me tell you something, I've been really disgusted with Roger Goodell and DeMaurice Smith from the NFL. This thing could have been handled right away.
If you hit a woman one time, you're going to get suspended for six games, and if you do -- let the legal process play out like you did with Ray McDonald in San Francisco. But the second time you hit a woman, you're never going to play pro sports again. But then to put off, how to handle this, quote-unquote, conduct policy, has been atrocious. You can't have me and hurt women, period.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BALDWIN: Whew. Where do we begin?
LEMON: Why don't you say how you really feel? Charles, he brings the heat.
BALDWIN: He does.
LEMON: He does not hold out. And he says -- I heard the radio interview recently that he gave.
BALDWIN: Yes.
LEMON: He said I'm not going to hold back. This is what he says, "We have a lot of crooks," talking about African-Americans. Then he says, "There's a reason we are racially profiled." I'm paraphrasing here. We act like we hold no responsibility, it's just ridiculous.
What do you say to that?
BALDWIN: I think he kept going back -- we talked for half an hour, and let me just say I am grateful for the time from him, we're the only outlet that he's talking to, and he keeps pointing to just a lot of noise. He says we are a society that grabs on the headlines. He's not on social media. He will never, ever, ever be on Twitter. He says, we gravitate to 140 characters or less. We don't read the facts. He has read the grand jury testimony in Ferguson. He says we as a society make up our minds.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: It's true.
BALDWIN: Based upon someone --
LEMON: It's a sound bite society.
BALDWIN: Absolutely.
LEMON: And people look at the headline, and they don't actually read the context and the entire content before they rush to judgment. He has a point with that. But he gets a lot of criticism, and I wonder if he talked to you about that. Because he's spoken -- he says he's called an Uncle Tom a lot. He doesn't care, does he?
BALDWIN: He doesn't care. I was like, Chuck, do you have thick skin or what? And he's like, Brooke, it is not thick skin. He said, for whatever reason, he was saying, you know, among white people, you can -- you can disagree. Among blacks, he said I have just noticed growing up, he's from Leeds, Alabama, grew up in a black community, and he was saying to me that you can't just agree to disagree, you have to be called names.
You're called Uncle Tom, you're called a traitor. He's just speaking what's on his mind.
LEMON: It's really a tired narrative. And he says, again, people make up their mind without looking at the evidence. He did not look at the -- he said he didn't really pay attention to the story because he wanted to see the evidence supporting --
BALDWIN: He said he wouldn't --
LEMON: Or did he already make up his mind?
BALDWIN: He wouldn't -- he wouldn't speak about -- this is actually interesting. So he said initially like so many people, he heard, he saw the headline initially.
LEMON: Talking about Ferguson?
BALDWIN: Talking about Ferguson, talking about Michael Brown, thought that, my god, you know, his heart went out to Michael Brown's family, and it still does, but he thought that this kid, this 18-year-old, was running from the officer as people initially were putting out there, assumed that he had been shot multiple times in his back, and then slowly but surely the facts. There is emotion and there's facts. The facts start piling up, and I think once the grand jury decision was made public, and once if you take the time, and it's a lot of information once you read the testimony and see the forensic evidence, he was like, my god, I have been taken this 180 from thinking one thing based upon initial bits and pieces I'd heard.
LEMON: To look into.
BALDWIN: To now realizing he was -- he was referencing the autopsy bullet holes with me, and realizing that that wasn't the case. You know? And his heart goes out to Michael Brown's family, but he believes that the process played out, and that --
LEMON: People just don't like the outcome.
BALDWIN: And people would have rioted no matter what.
LEMON: I've got to run, you know how this works, but I have to ask you because I've heard the sentiment from police officers. And he's saying the same thing that he's hearing from cop friends, like --
BALDWIN: He --
LEMON: Cops feel like they have been really given the short --
BALDWIN: They're like, you're on your own. You're potentially on your own just based upon what's happened and in fear of entanglements with African-Americans. His buddies, black cops, white cops, are saying, we're worried now. We're worried about our interactions with African-Americans, and we don't want you to be on your own, but that's something that's talked about among circles.
LEMON: I can't wait to see the rest of it.
Thank you, Brooke.
BALDWIN: Yes. Tomorrow on my show 2:00.
LEMON: You're going to see the full interview with Charles Barkley tomorrow 2:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN with Brooke Baldwin.
And when we come back, the Republican rising star that you may not have heard of, could he be making a run for the White House?
Plus shocking allegations of gang rape at an elite university. I'm going to talk to young women who say they were victimized by rape culture.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Dr. Ben Carson, not widely known outside of conservative political circles, but that's changing. His star is rising among Republicans. We're going to talk about him in just a moment, but first I want to get a reaction to Charles Barkley from Michael Smerconish, CNN political commentator and anchor of "SMERCONISH," and Van Jones, CNN political commentator.
I'm sure you guys were able to hear that interview. What an interview, Michael. You heard from Charles Barkley. He
supports the grand jury's decision. Do you agree with him?
MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN ANCHOR, SMERCONISH: I do agree with him. I think that the grand jury handling of this was imperfect, but ultimately it came to the correct conclusion. And most importantly, I think that when all of the evidence is evaluated there is no conceivable way that had there been a conventional criminal trial in this case, they would have been guilt beyond a reasonable doubt of any of the four or five charges that were being considered the Darren Wilson.
LEMON: Van, he's at odds with a lot of people especially African- Americans who really don't -- some African-Americans, I think I should say, or black America, they don't really trust the ruling. He's at odds with that.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, that's true, I think because from the very beginning you have African-Americans who are in Ferguson who know this prosecutor very well, who said they just don't trust him at all and they wanted to have a special prosecutor from the governor, and that it turned out that they were right. You saw leak after leak, you saw a lot of behavior from this prosecutor that did seem to be hostile.
Be, you know, honestly, Barkley really went far beyond just saying that he agreed or disagreed with that actual grand jury. He said a lot of things that I just thought were really inflammatory and I think the worst of it was his contention that somehow African-Americans who are concerned about this case are just somehow anti-cop. That is very dangerous. I think African-Americans want better policing, not no policing.
And I think African-Americans shouldn't have to choose between no policing or street violence, or police violence or no policing. Why can't we have a conversation about improving policing, so that our community can do better. I thought him going after African-Americans who are concerned about this as if we have no standing at all was very, very irresponsible.
LEMON: Why do you think it was irresponsible?
JONES: Irresponsible because -- you know, listen, the African- American community is not perfect, but frankly, no community is perfect. He says we have a lot of crooks in our community. Listen, there's a lot of crooks in the white community. Wall Street frankly is overrun by a lot of crooks. But we don't talk about that as white criminality. I just think that the way that he went about this, if he wanted to have a real conversation, was really, really inflammatory.
African-Americans deserve to be able to criticize policing, we want better policing. I'm from a law enforcement family. My dad was a cop in the military. And what I know about police is they're human beings. You don't have to deify them, you don't have to demonize them but we were correct to raise those questions and for him to come out, I think it's wrong. LEMON: Listen, Van, I'm not speaking for -- Charles Barkley can do a
good enough job, well enough job on his own speaking of something. Quite frankly he was not asked about Wall Street, about white criminality. He was asked about African-American.
JONES: And that is part of the problem. There are plenty of -- listen, every African-American community is not distressed, every white community is not perfect. We aren't talking about the mass epidemic in the white community. We're not talking about the suicide epidemic among young white men.
Why do we have these black scolds who come out, whether it's Bill Cosby in the old days or now him who say black people, you should do better, black people, you're bad. No white will come and do that.
LEMON: I want to get Michael in this.
Michael, what do you think of that?
SMERCONISH: I think there's so much room for improvement in terms of relations between law enforcement and all communities. I think the record is replete with instances where young African-American males are treated in a way that they shouldn't be by law enforcement, but what I've said repeatedly since reading the grand jury testimony, this was not the case on which to base all those arguments and to have that arguments because in the end I don't think it's what people prejudged it as being.
I've long said, Don, and I said it to you, people should really wait until they could evaluate the grand jury testimony in this case before they weighed in, and one of the things that Charles Barkley said with which I agreed is how so many folks among us were predisposed, predisposed both to not believe the result of the grand jury and predisposed to take the word of the police officer. And we'd all have been better served had we caught our breath, taken the time to digest the evidence that was presented.
LEMON: I wanted to get to Rams in, and I also wanted to get to Dr. Ben Carson here, but we have a bit of breaking news that I want to ask you gentlemen about.
Bill Cosby is being sued in Los Angeles by a woman who alleges he sexually abused her when she was 15 years old. That's according to RadarOnline. The five-page complaint alleges that Cosby Judith Huth in 1974 at the Playboy mansion.
Michael, as I've been saying, the hits just keep on coming. There is a barrage of women now all making allegations. Now this woman is suing Bill Cosby according to RadarOnline.
SMERCONISH: All I know about it -- all I know about it is what I've just heard from you, but what piques my curiosity is the age of this alleged victim because none of the other women who have come forward as far as I know, they were all adults. No one was near the range of 15. And if it's possible, I think this takes it to a whole new level, and not a positive one. And one question that I keep asking, Don, about this, because the
pattern here, if it's accurate is one of him medicating each and every one of these victims, I'm wondering where was he getting the meds. It's the same kind of a question that I was asking about the whole downfall of Michael Jackson.
LEMON: Right. I want to ask Van.
Van, you're an attorney.
JONES: Yes.
LEMON: Yes. So what do you make of this?
JONES: Well, first of all, this is the first time that we're going beyond, you know, different allegations that we're not put before the court. I think Bill Cosby has to come forward and say something. At a certain point his silence becomes almost a kind of an admission. These are horrible, horrendous allegations, and, you know, finally now this would apparently get litigated before a court of law.
If he plans on waiting for the two years before this thing gets before the court to speak to America -- he owes this country, and he owes his fan, he owes the women, some kind of statement. I think this level of silence for this long is unfair to everybody, and again, at some point silence almost becomes admission.
LEMON: All right. Let me just read this for people who just maybe tuning in. The breaking news tonight here on CNN, Bill Cosby being sued in Los Angeles by a woman who alleges he sexually abused her when she was just 15 years old. That's again according to RadarOnline. The five-page complaint alleges that Cosby molested Judith Huth in 1974 at the Playboy mansion.
And CNN to say that we reached out to Judith Huth, her attorneys, and also Cosby's attorneys for response. We have not heard back from them.
Thank you, gentlemen. Appreciate it.
Did Michael Brown's stepfather incite rioting in Ferguson after the grand jury's decision was announced? We're going to debate that next.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: St. Louis County Police are looking at Michael Brown's stepfather as they investigate the violence that broke out last week after the grand jury decided not to indict Officer Darren Wilson. Louis Head is heard screaming, "Burn this bitch down."
Did he incite rioting?
Attorneys for Brown's family condemned the remarks but say Head was acting on raw emotions.
Joining me now exclusively, Ty Pruitt, Michael Brown's cousin.
Good evening to you, sir.
Good evening, Don.
LEMON: First of all, I want to thank you for being here this evening and I'm sorry, you know, for your family's loss. How are you doing? How's the family doing?
TY PRUITT, MICHAEL BROWN'S COUSIN: That -- that's a question that I keep getting asked, and the family is doing, I mean, much like any other family would be doing if a murderer went free. LEMON: Do you think it's -- do you think it's fair to call him a
murderer after a grand jury found him -- that there was not enough evidence or cause to indict?
PRUITT: Absolutely. When you look at the grand jury, and you've got break down exactly what he said in his testimony. And see that's where I don't think a lot of people are paying attention to.
LEMON: So those -- many would deem that as an inflammatory statement, right, much as the husband of Michael Brown's mother, and so you're saying he's a murderer. And then on the night that the -- the announcement was made, there's a video of him standing on top of a car believer or something, screaming we're going to burn this (beep) down. Let's take a look at it and then we'll talk about it.
TY PRUITT, MICHAEL BROWN'S COUSIN: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN'S MOTHER: He just spoke out of anger. Speaking is a different thing than act, he didn't act. He just spoke out of anger.
LOUIS HEAD, MICHAEL BROWN'S STEPFATHER: Burn this mother (beep) down. Burn this (beep) down. Give me the mic, give me the mic. Burn this (beep) down. Burn this (beep) down. Burn this (beep) down. Burn this (beep) down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So you said murder, and again as many people say that's inflammatory. The police are now looking into whether Louis Head may have been incited rioting there in the crowd, what do you think of that?
PRUITT: I feel that what Louis did was pure emotion, pure emotion. But, here is what I will say, that if you're going to bring Louis in for -- for the act that he just committed, then I think you need to bring in his co-conspirators also, and that would be Bob McCulloch and Governor Nixon.
LEMON: How would they be the co-conspirators, are they the cause for the looting and the rioting?
PRUITT: Let me break that down to you. Why -- let's say that you had a Pit Bull, Don, and you let him out once and he bit a dog, he tore a Chihuahua plot. (ph) So you bring him back in, you lock him up, but then the very next day, you let him out again, and he -- you already know what he's going to do right? You already know, because you didn't take the time out to correct the problem that you had. So, let's think about, let's think about it like this, let's think about Bob McCulloch. Look at the time he decided to release that decision. He waited until 9 o'clock at night in the dark, and all of the schools are out, all of the teenagers and all of the young cats who looted the first time are right there waiting in the middle of the street. And he even pushed it back an hour to incite it a little bit more. So then we go to Governor Nixon who brought in what was it, some ungodly amount of about 200 national guardsmen, but where were they, when things were burning?
LEMON: It may sound --
PRUITT: He held them back.
LEMON: It may sound to people that you're deflecting from what Louis Head did and you're condoning and blaming it on the governor and the prosecutor.
PRUITT: Absolutely not, absolutely not. See, there's a wrong, but then you going to know why that wrong was committed. You understand what I'm saying Don? What you saw out of Louis was pure raw emotion, and if I were to take it to court, if I was his lawyer, I would call it temporary insanity, and I would have a great case for it. Because, he just witnessed the man who murdered his son, his stepson goes free, off of a boxed case.
LEMON: So what do you think of the looting and the rioting?
PRUITT: The looting and the rioting are absolutely disgusting. It's absolutely disgusting, there is no reason why you should ever burn a police car or burn a building down. But there's -- I mean, there's also no reason why you should ever burn a city down after a soccer game. But we don't give that, that much attention.
LEMON: OK. I want to get to this, because, it's part of the reason why we wanted to have you on. You created a video and that video is called "America on Strike." Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRUITT: I don't care what anybody out there says, see. I hear some of the people say that he loved you know, menacing. I hear -- you know some of it talking about this, (inaudible). Let me tell you point blank, he was 18-year-old with absolutely no weapon, and unless his hands were registered as a lethal weapons, there was no way he was going to kill Officer Darren Wilson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And Ty, according to the evidence that came out from the grand jury, he was unarmed man, unarmed teenager who had a fight with a police officer and reached for the officer's gun. So, why, why did you make this video?
PRUITT: OK. So let's look at that, let's look at that Don. Let's look at what, what Officer Darren Wilson said his self. He said when he pulled up to him, he said he saw two teenagers walking in the street, they actually getting out the street, they turned him down. So, -- then he, him and Bob McCulloch say it, that he was reacting to a strong armed robbery, right?
LEMON: And I have a short amount of time, but as quickly as you can. PRUIT: OK. No problem. No problem. No problem. We go there months back, we hear the chief of police saying that Darren Wilson had no idea, that the robbery had been committed. And then you go to Officer Darren Wilson said that he felt like a 5-year-old when grabbed his arm, which means he pulled up on this guy, grabbed his arm. So, when you say they were trying to pull -- he was trying to pull him in the car? Sounds pretty correct to me, and then Officer Wilson said, I reached for the gun, because I didn't think I can take one more punch.
LEMON: Alright. And since much -- some of what you said was addressed in the -- well, came out from the grand jury about whether he knew it or not. But I think -- I'm sorry, I have a very limited amount of time here. We'll have you back on, thank you very much Ty.
PRUITT: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you. Outrage on the campus of University of Virginia an article of Rolling Stone magazine alleged a female student was gang raped two years ago, inside the fraternity house and nothing was done about it. This university tolerates a culture of sexual violence? We will going to talk to current and former students about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A recent article in Rolling Stone about an alleged gang rape inside the University of Virginia. Fraternity house has rocked UVA campus to its core. University President Teresa Sullivan is now taking action, but students disagree on whether that action is enough. CNN's Joe Johns has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: The University of Virginia's President Teresa Sullivan addressing the UVA community about the issue of sexual violence now engulfing the school.
TERESA SULLIVAN, PRESIDENT OF UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: There is a piece of our culture that is broken. And I ask your help in coming together as a strong and resilient community to fix it.
JOHNS: Fix what Rolling Stone magazine alleged is a culture of sexual assault at UVA. Sullivan says the university would find a ways to reduce binge drinking and root out date rape drugs on campus. Force fraternities to provide greater safety for guests as part of their agreement to operate on campus, hire an additional trauma counselor for the school women center. But a local police sub-station on campus and conduct an anonymous survey in the spring to determine how often students experience sexual abuse on campus. Sullivan suspended all fraternity activities until January. While students started an online petition calling for the permanent closure of the fraternity house where an alleged gang rape occurred two years ago.
CROWD: Not one more.
JOHNS: Students in this divided community are painfully examining their school's culture. ANNIE CROCKETT, STUDENT AT UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Our initial
response was to defend what we have, and now we have switched from defending it to using the opportunity to sort of start the change to now be an example.
JOHNS: Since the Rolling Stone's story, some journalist questioned its credibility. Asking why the writer Sabrina Rubin Erdely didn't include the perspective of those accused of participating in the gang rape two years ago, of a first-year female student named Jackie. Here's what Erdely says about the men and a recent interview with CNN.
SABRINA RUBIN ERDELY, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR AT ROLLING STONE MAGAZINE: They're walking around as though nothing has happened. Jackie did go to the school to report her allegations, and the school did absolutely nothing.
JOHNS: Erdely has said she attempted to reach the men, but was not able to. Just today, Rolling Stone issued a statement accentually standing by the story. Through our extensive reporting and fact check, and we found Jackie to be entirely credible and courageous, and we are proud to have given her disturbing story, the attention it deserves.
JOHNS: We asked both the Charlottesville police department which is investigating the allegations as well as the University of Virginia about the credibility Jackie's account as described in the magazine, and got no response. Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.
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LEMON: Alright Joe, thank you very much. This is an important conversation, and so I want everyone to sit down and listen to this. I want to bring in now current and former student Alexandria Pinkleton is a UVA student and friend of Jackie from that Rolling Stone article. Emily Renda is a recent graduate and project coordinator at the Office of Student Affairs. Liz Seccuro is a graduate of UVA and the victims- rights advocate. Thank you, for joining us this evening. Since I said this is an important conversation and Alexandria, we're going to start with you. You're current student on campus. What's the mood like since this Rolling Stone article came out.
ALEXANDRIA PINKLETON, CURRENT AND FORMER STUDENT OF UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: The mood has called for a lot of change, and that's one really positive thing that we've seen at from this article. A lot of people want to tackle this issue and do anything that they can to try to make our community safer.
LEMON: Emily, you're a recent grad who now works on campus. Of the charges that UVA's president -- the changes I should say that UVA president plans to make, is that enough?
EMILY RENDA, PROJECT COORDINATOR AT THE OFFICE OF STUDENT AFFAIRS: You know, I think it is important to never say that anything is ever going to be enough. I think there's always more that we can do, but, I know I speak personally when I say that I'm really excited with some of the things that she's mentioned especially, the addition of the extra trauma counselor at the women center, because frankly, the need is there and this article was very triggering to a lot of people, and it's great to have the extra resources for people to use confidentially to talk about, things from the past things that happened on campus. And so, enough maybe -- not so much and I'm excited to see what else will come of this, but I'm really happy with the changes that are being made initially.
LEMON: You know, UVA professors was part of the schools president recommending a bill of rights for sexual assault survivors to let victims know that they can speak up without repercussions. It's meant to simplify their current policy. Are these types of -- these are types of changes need on campus? This is for Liz?
LIZ SECCURO, UVA GRAD AND THE VICTIMS-RIGHTS ADVOCATE: I think that it is the types of changes needed on campus are greater than policies and things instituted by the university, itself. I mean, it is like the hawks running the hen house. I think we need to have something that is more law enforcement enabled and something that is single sanctioned, just like the honor code. I don't think it's enough at all. I think modest is a word I would use to these changes, and that's being generous.
LEMON: Modest. OK. So, so, what do you think about the people -- I have to ask you this, this is the question Jackie's story, because the accusers weren't interviewed. You heard Joe Johns mentioned that, the accusers want an interview in that Rolling Stone article. Some goes as far is that -- to suggest that it may not be true.
RENDA: I think that we are focusing in many ways on how the story was told when -- what's important is how the story was told, it's that something awful happens --
LEMON: Right.
RENDA: And we have a culture to change, and set of policies to change, so we can get hung up on discussing how the story was told. But, that's missing the point, I think we all, kind of know that, that's missing the point.
LEMON: Liz, do you agree with that?
SECCURO: I absolutely agree with that, and each of us in our way was involved with Sabrina and to suggest that somebody who committed a felony did not want to speak with a journalist, it's ridiculous. Obviously, the Rolling Stone organizations and young winner has a completely transparent legal vetting process. And the whole truth of discussion is ridiculous and disgusting.
LEMON: Alright. Thank you, ladies. Standby, we're going to talk much more about this. Next, I want to talk what goes into the decisions, whether to press charges.
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LEMON: Back with me now, Alexandria Pinkleton, Emily Renda and Liz Seccuro, and we're talking about the scandal of allegations of a brutal gang rape at the University of Virginia. So, Alexandria, I want to ask you, your good friends with Jackie, the UVA student who alleged that she was gang rape in focus of that Rolling Stone article. How is she doing?
PINKLETON: She's got excited that the conversation that gearing towards to advocacy now, which is one of the main goals of the article.
LEMON: Emily, as of now, Jackie is not press charges, do you know if she plans to?
RENDA: We know that there is a police investigation, and that is all we know right at this point.
LEMON: So, I'll have to ask you Alexandria, you know, the delicate of this subject, you're a sexual assault survivor yourself.
LEMON: What went into the decision --
PINKLETON: Yes.
LEMON: About, whether or not to press charges?
PINKLETON: I decided to go through the informal trial system through the university because, I wanted to talk to my perpetrator about what had happened and it was lot about my feeling process, to be honest and getting from sense of closure.
LEMON: And Liz, you were sexually assaulted in the same frat house -- same frat house building that Jackie was sexually assault in. When you first realize that, what was your reaction?
SECCURO: My reaction is one of horror and disgust and of course, I went to the university hospital quite soon thereafter and then found myself in the dean's office, and from there, it didn't go very well as, I was told -- I couldn't press charges with the Charlottesville police that they had to take it internally. And, you know, of course I did get some measure of justice, and my story mirror's Jackie's almost exactly in that -- my perpetuator -- one of my three perpetuator is did write a letter of apology to me, about 28, 10 (ph) years later.
LEMON: So, you say that you were dismissed by campus officials, when you're sexual assaulted UVA in the 1984. My question is, do you think that the way these incidents are treated now, has changed much since then?
SECCURO: No, I don't. I think it's exactly the same. I think there is this almost seductive quality that the administration reels us in and makes us feel that we are family and tells us that we're your friends. And, in the meantime, they're telling giant lies. I mean, I was told point blank as I sat across from Former Dean Canterbury that, I couldn't possibly have been raped even though I was completely bloodied and bruised from head to toe and that I had regrettable sex with a young man and I didn't want my parents to think that I wasn't a good girl.
LEMON: Did the university ever -- SECCURO: I --
LEMON: Address it after that? Did the university --
SECCURO: I'm sorry --
LEMON: Ever address it after that, Liz?
SECCURO: No, they didn't, because it became part and parcel of the Charlottesville police department. And I know different people had different experiences and I know one of the other ladies would like to jump in.
LEMON: Yeah, was it Emily or was it Alexandria? Who wanted to the jump if in?
RENDA: I think both of us. But, I think I first say that, one of the things that I think is detrimental that come out of this article in some ways is that, Dean Romano in particular is being criticized for doing what -- quite frankly is literally, the first page of the advocacy handbook, about giving people options and not coercing in any way shape or form.
And, and frankly, we can have a conversation about, how deans of students and officials in that capacity should handle these cases. If we want them to be advocates, or want to contract out but, she did advocacy best practices which is, clinically correlated with better mental health outcomes is incredibly important for respecting victim autonomy, and she respected Jackie's choices, whether she agreed with them or not. And so, frankly, we should be having a conversation about, whether we want people to play that role or not. Not too much about whether UVA did the wrong thing, because, they took the victim- centered approach, that's clinically best practice.
LEMON: Alright let me ask you this, because --
SECCURO: I was going to...
LEMON: Go ahead.
SECCURO: Actually, I'm so sorry. But, actually -- and that's great Emily, because that was Jackie's choice -- it's great to be presented with choices. My choice was that I asked my current -- my dean at the time, to call the Charlottesville police, and he said, "No, I cannot do that, because the Charlottesville police do not have jurisdiction over that fraternity house." And we all know, because it is the same house, but that's a lie. I'm saying, the choices are great, and I think that what you're saying is absolutely on point, but, I asked for specific thing to happen, and was told a lie.
LEMON: OK. So here is what --
PINKLETON: Well, what -- what we are saying is that was not my stance and we think there has been a lot of changes over the years and what happens now is that if you do report, and you want to go through the trial or go to the university police, the administration will support you on that decision, and you can go through with that, and I think that is a huge step in the right direction.
LEMON: Yeah, Alexandria, you just answer my question, I was just going to ask you, should the police always be involved in this and you just answered that. I have to ask you this, and I start -- Liz, you have children, right?
SECCURO: Yes, I do. I have two young children.
LEMON: If you had college-aged daughters, would you hesitate to send them to UVA?
SECCURO: Right now, yes. Because, right now, UVA is burning, and we need to put out the fire, and we need to look at not only a 5 and 10- year plan, but the immediate plan. And I think we are all interested in working on that.
LEMON: Thank you. Really appreciate you joining us this evening, thanks.
SECCURO: Thank you.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
PINKLETON: Thank you.
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LEMON: It has been really interesting show tonight, I appreciate you're joining us. Thanks for watching, I'm Don Lemon, I'll see you back here tomorrow night, 10 p.m. Eastern. AC 360 starts right now.
