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CNN NEWSROOM
Details Emerging about Ottawa Gunman; Interview with MP Charlie Angus; Canada Reacts to Terror Attack
Aired October 23, 2014 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks. Thanks to all of you. Have a great day.
NEWSROOM starts now.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
COSTELLO: And good morning to you, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.
A so-called sleepy nation awakens today to a sobering, new reality. Terrorism may have driven a gunman's deranged attack on Canada's laid back capital.
Happening right now, you can see it there, hundreds of lawmakers and other citizens now gathering at the War Memorial where the gunman began his attack by murdering a soldier on duty there.
The killer then burst into the nation's parliament building and opened fire before being killed in an explosion of gunfire himself.
And we are learning breaking new details about the shooter. His name is Michael Zehaf-Bibeau. He's 32 years old or was. He was born Michael Joseph Hall and sources say he changed his name after converting to Islam. He had a criminal history mostly for drug convictions.
Sources also tell us Canadian authorities did seize his passport when they learned he planned to join radical Muslim fighters overseas.
Investigators have not rules out a connection to terrorism but Canada's prime minister seems to leave little doubt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN HARPER, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: Fellow Canadians, in the days to come, we will learn more about the terrorist and any accomplices he may have had, but this week's event are a grim reminder that Canada is not immune to the types of terrorist attacks we have seen elsewhere around the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: And just a short time ago, Ottawa's police chief telling frightened residents to be on alert but do not allow their fear to rule the day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF CHARLES BORDELEAU, OTTAWA POLICE: Ottawa should feel safe. We have increased our presence in the downtown court today and for the days to come and we'll continue to work with the RCMP.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: We want to begin our -- we want to begin our coverage in Ottawa with CNN's Chris Cuomo. He is near the War Memorial where Colonel Cirillo died, and as you can see, many, many people are paying tribute.
Good morning, Chris.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Carol. The prime minister was just here. He's given a statement. As you can see, there's going to be a procession here at the War Memorial. This is where it happened, this is where Reserve Sergeant Cirillo was killed. Corporal Cirillo.
And it is of course marking what happened yesterday but also the resolve of today, of this community to come together because while the shooter is dead the threat is very much alive, Carol. And you're hearing that from security experts.
Deb Feyerick, you've been covering all the situation. She just ran over. She was following what the prime minister was doing.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. And he was there with his wife. They were just -- they were giving a moment of silence.
You can see up close to the memorial there are a number of markers where the bullets fell. You can -- I also spoke to a member of parliament as well, and he says that they're going -- today they're going to be reevaluating security in that building and all around the area.
There's a huge question as to how the gunman managed to get from the War Memorial into his car, then back around to the Parliament Building without being stopped. So all of that is under investigation, but one of the things he told me, Irwin Cotler, he said, there was a real concern because had all these lawmakers not been in that caucus room at the times they were, there could have been a lot more deaths.
Because usually they're in the Hall of Honor, they're milling around, they're talking policy, there's -- it's much more crowded than normally would be, so the fact that the gunman entered at a time when they were already sort of safe in their rooms really prevented a lot of the mayhem.
Also the sergeant-at-arms is going to be meeting some of those members of parliament and they are supposed to walk up to the Parliament Building together, just a show of solidarity. They're really talking about terrorism and counterterrorism laws today here and what they need to do to try to stop these people, these lone wolves, from acting out what it is they want this jihad, this perverted form of jihad.
CUOMO: Right. And now obviously you have a simple problem and a complex one, Carol. The simple one is how do you make the situation more secure, the actual building. The complex one is how do you deal with people like this shooter yesterday, not part of a formal organization, not part of a more coordinated plot, as we understand it right now, so what are they getting from who this guy was and why he went so off?
FEYERICK: Well, and that's -- and again, that's -- they're trying to figure out how he got radicalized. He's 32 years old. He's a Muslim convert but he had strong ties to Libya. His father is a Libyan businessman. There are some reports that he in fact went to fight after Gadhafi was deposed.
And so there's a lot of conversation about what was going on in his head at the time. His mother works as a federal employee in immigration.
CUOMO: They knew something, right, because they flagged his passport.
FEYERICK: Well, and that's the interesting thing, and that's what's so frustrating about it. Canadian authorities did not necessarily drop the ball on this. They had him on their radar. They confiscated his passport because he was intending to go overseas to fight. They didn't want to do that. They don't want Canadians going over because that creates a whole new layer of problems when they come back. Then -- they become radicalized and they know how to carry a gun, and they know how to fight.
So that was one of the things. They had him on radar but there's only so much you can do. If somebody doesn't commit a crime you cannot detain them. And that's something the parliament is probably going to take up today -- how do you preempt a possible strike?
You confiscate their passport but the problem is then they're stuck in Canada.
CUOMO: Yes.
FEYERICK: And if they want to do something they're going to.
CUOMO: Right. And, you know, Philip Mudd was on the show. He's got as much counterterrorism experience as anyone we use on CNN, and he said, you know, every time something like this happens we presuppose, Carol, that the system screwed up. He said that's just not the case. You can't catch everything.
He said that the best equipment we have for dealing with people like this is the community structure,.
FEYERICK: Yes.
CUOMO: That they will see this coming long in advance. And if you think about it, this guy got kicked out of his mosque.
FEYERICK: Right.
CUOMO: For erratic behavior. He had friends who were saying to him, why do you want to go overseas, what's going on with you? So there are people who knew things about him. And if you can enable that more, you may be more ahead of the game than anything you do on the stateside.
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: But again, but again as Deb said --
FEYERICK: There's a little crazy and then there's a lot of crazy.
COSTELLO: As Deb said, you can't follow these people 24 hours a day. And sometimes they slip through. But who knows? Of course, we'll be investigating what they could have done for days to come.
Chris Cuomo, Deb Feyerick, thank you so much.
Law enforcement, as we've been telling you, on both sides of the border are trying to dig into the past of this gunman who visited the United States at least four times most recently in 2013.
CNN's Pamela Brown is here with more on that side of the story.
Good morning, Pamela.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning to you, Carol. Here's what we've learned about this gunman that he's been identified as Canadian-born Michael Joseph Hall. As we heard (INAUDIBLE) say that he converted to Islam, we've also learned from Canadian authorities as Deb just spoke about that they revoked his passport after it was discovered that he planned to travel overseas to fight.
That's according to the sources we've been speaking with, and right now investigators are scouring his online activity, looking at his connections with other extremists.
Motive for the shooting at this point still unknown but terrorism has not been ruled out. In the wake of these two recent incidents in Canada whereby two soldiers were killed, the FBI has asked all of its field offices across the country to stay on heightened alert, remain vigilant. The concern, of course, among law enforcement officials, is that we could see someone try to emulate this here in the U.S.
We know that just in the past week or so the FBI and DHS, and now a bulletin to law enforcement agencies across the country after intelligence picked up chatter from ISIS members urging attacks against government officials including law enforcement and military personnel.
The top concern here is these lone Wolf attacks because they're difficult to detect especially small tactical opportunities like a hit-and-run, something like that, that doesn't take much plotting. It happens with little to no warning and it's not going to hit a lot of the trip wires. So what happened in Canada, Carol, just reinforces the need to be vigilant here in the U.S.
COSTELLO: Well, I was just wondering what would have happened in the United States. I mean, they knew this guy was planning to go to Syria to fight with is, so the Canadian authorities knew that about him, right? Right? He's a petty criminal. He's gone to jail in the past. They knew that about him. They knew that his masque threw him out of services, they knew that.
So why wasn't he under constant surveillance and would such a person be under constant surveillance here?
BROWN: Well, we know that there are several people that are living in the U.S. that are under constant surveillance, but you have to think you can't like Deb said detain someone if they haven't committed a crime. There's only so much you can do legally. So there are ways to monitor them, to take action like what the Canadian authorities did, revoke his passport so he can't travel overseas, share information about him.
I know the Canadian authorities have been sharing information to American authorities about people that were on their radar, so it's likely that this was someone that they told American authorities about prior to the incident yesterday, but there's only so much you can do from a legal standpoint.
And there's bound to be people who fall through the cracks like this person, and again, it's very hard to prevent lone wolf attacks, to prevent these radicalized individuals from carrying out an attack, something simple and small scale like what we've seen this week in Canada.
COSTELLO: Pamela Brown, thanks so much, reporting live from Washington this morning.
Let's talk about the victim in this case, Colonel Cirillo. He's described as a loving, caring and funny person to everyone. Friends are remembering the Canadian Army Reservist shot dead by the gunman in Ottawa's National War Memorial. His social media page is showing with lots of dogs and is playing the guitar. Two people who knew Cirillo shared a word to describe him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just didn't want to believe it. He was such an amazing person, amazing father, amazing friend. He rescued dogs. He was just an awesome person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's a hero. He's Asian amazing guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: Colonel Cirillo leaves behind a son who just started kindergarten this fall.
Back to the man who shot and killed him, Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, the person who killed him is being called a national hero. His name is Kevin Vickers. He's 58 years old. He's the sergeant-at-arms at Canada's House of Commons.
Vickers previously served with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Yet his brother says this is the first time he's used his weapon in the line of duty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN VICKERS, SERGEANT-AT-ARMS KEVIN VICKER'S BROTHER: In 28 years with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police he had not, from what I understood, used his weapon in exchange of gunfire, and to think that as sergeant-at-arms for the nation in parliament, of all places, to have to -- to be involved in something like that, as I say, is quite surreal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: CNN's Alexandra Field has more about the man who saved the day.
ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Certainly he is exactly that, Carol. And you know, when we see this video and we hear those shots ringing out in the halls of Parliament I think it sort of takes your breath away. And what we're hearing from witnesses is that certainly there were a number of officers in that building. They had their weapons drawn. Witnesses believe a lot of the officers were the ones firing the shots that would account for those gunshots that we heard.
That really it took one man to stop the gunman, it was the sergeant- at-arms, Kevin Vickers, a tremendous act of service to his country, a tremendous active bravery, and what's really amazing is that his family tells CNN that they first learned that Vickers was involved in this, that he was really the hero of the situation when they heard about it on TV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, AC 360: I understand you first heard that your brother shot and killed this gunman while watching television this morning. What was your reaction?
Well, you know, from a family perspective, just a lot of concern to hear that gunfire and then hear my brother's name mentioned over and over again, certainly it was just real concern about his well-being and as the day progressed, it was an extraordinary relief to know that he was OK, and at the same time very, very proud of what he had to do today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FIELD: And clearly they are tremendously proud of him, along with so many Canadians.
And, Carol, you point out this was the first time he's believed to have exchanged gunfire. You know the role of the sergeant-at-arms is ceremonial to a certain extent but also this is somebody who really does acts as the police chief in that building.
COSTELLO: Well, did a great job. It's amazing. There's a trending hashtag to the story, too. Tell us about that.
Yes. A lot of people are coming together, and coming together on Twitter and just like what we saw in the wake of the Boston marathon bombing renouncing a new hash tag, Ottawastrong, tweets sort of pouring in this morning. It is a place where people are expressing their condolences, sharing them compassion with the family of Colonel Cirillo, but it is also a place where they're going to express their resolve to get bomb bombing #Ottawastrong.
People are expressing condolences, sharing their compassion with the family of colonel Cirillo and also where they express their resolve to come together as a community, posting a lot of pictures sort of the iconic places in Ottawa, and offering their support for one another. Because we know this is still a chaotic and the difficult days certainly in that community.
COSTELLO: Alexander, thanks so much, I appreciate it.
Still to come in the NEWSROOM, a scene straight out of columbine. That's how one member of Canada's Parliament describes the father shooting that has plunged his nation into mourning. We'll talk to him next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: A top official vows that the deadly Ottawa shooting will not stop democracy. Members of Canada's parliament will return to work this morning. In fact, they're already there.
One of them, Charlie Angus, joins me now.
Good morning, sir.
CHARLIE ANGUS, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, TIMMINS-JAMES BAY: Good morning. Thank you so much for your interest.
COSTELLO: Thank you for being with me. I so appreciate it.
I know that you attended that memorial service for Corporal Nathan Cirillo, the silent one still taking place behind you. What was that like?
ANGUS: This was very off-the-cuff. I think parliamentarians felt before we walk into the parliament building, we had to pay respect to a young man who gave his life for his country and what more profound place than at the symbol for us of our democracy is the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, it's where that war that we became, really became a people that we have people stand there every day as a commemoration of the people who have fallen that we lost the man there yesterday.
We were out there this morning flowers, police all over the place and we wanted to say thank you, and we're going into parliament because the business of this country will continue. COSTELLO: What will be the first order of business this morning?
ANGUS: I think the first order of business is what happens every morning when the doors open, in our tradition, the sergeant-at-arms walks in with the giant vase, a ceremonial role that goes back hundreds of years. But, this morning, the man is a real hero, Kevin Vickers, larger-than-life figure in our parliament who saved our lives.
So, we will be there standing to salute him as he comes in with the speaker of the House and the rest of the parliamentarian team that make it possible for to us do our work, which is democracy.
COSTELLO: And I understand the doors will be left open during the morning prayers and that's unusual. Why is that?
ANGUS: There's a tradition that goes back to those old rotten English kings that used to try to interfere with the people's work. The doors are closed when the business of parliament begins so people cannot interfere or stop the king's business. That's the role of the sergeant-at-arms, Kevin Vickers usually sits at the door with the ceremonial sword.
Today, I think it's the sense our doors are open because even though the people are not allowed in today for security reasons the people will not be excluded. This is their place. Our parliament is based on a sense of it's inclusive, people can come, they can protest, they can celebrate, they can have dissent, no nut job with a gun is going to change that tradition that we have.
COSTELLO: Well, let's talk about that so-called nutjob with a gun. Is there any doubt in your mind that Michael Zehaf-Bibeau is a terrorist inspired by ISIS?
ANGUS: We've had two brutal killings this week, both of them local homegrown Canadian boys. The question we have to ask is what caused these men to go off the rails. We find with this man who apparently has a couple of different names that he's had drug possession convictions, he's apparently mugged somebody. This is a man who was on the fringes.
So, the questions we need to ask ourselves is how are these people getting this crazy ideology that's inspiring them to do these copycat killings. The other issue then is what happens in a society when people are marginalized and are crazy, are there warning signs that we need to look at not just for security, not just for terrorists, but these are mental health issues as well.
We cannot let people like this fall through the cracks and end up doing deranged killings or hurting people.
COSTELLO: Do you consider him though a terrorist?
ANGUS: I consider this man to be a deranged nutter in the same way that we've had other shootings across the world, done by crazy people, for whatever reason he picked up this ideology, but this is not a man who was sent here to do this. He didn't wash up on our shores as some have said. He was a home boy and he went terribly wrong and we've seen it with school shootings in the U.S., we've seen it when people do crazy things all over the place. So, let's keep that in perspective.
Let's make our parliament secure. Let's learn what's happening, let's find out what kind of Internet radicalization is going on, but also what are we doing when people are allowed to fall so far off the margins that they end up hurting other people.
COSTELLO: And the reason I ask you the terrorist question is because you know, many countries including Canada is doing what it can to defeat ISIS in Iraq, in fact the Canadian parliament voted to participate in air strikes over Iraq to help defeat ISIS, but you were against those air strikes saying that they wouldn't work.
Have you changed your mind?
ANGUS: The Democratic Party feels very strongly about protecting people who are facing this murderous gang. When our foreign affairs people were over there, they were asked what could Canada do and we were asked to supply humanitarian support to make sure that we were securing the refugee camps.
I believe that's Canada's role. I haven't changed that view, the fact that some nut job with a gun from Montreal comes and runs up the hill with a shotgun doesn't change that view. How do we deal with these issues? They're very complicated but I think --
(CROSSTALK)
COSTELLO: So you're not in favor of Canada still participating in these air strikes or helping the United States in its efforts to treat ISIS in Iraq and Syria, other than humanitarian aid?
ANGUS: Well, we are certainly very interested in helping our allies, the U.S., and our other European allies in this very serious struggle.
What role could Canada play? We have had an amazing history in terms of our humanitarian work. We believe that that's where we should be. We don't believe right now personally that whether we're bombing into Syria or Iraq, as the Canadian forces, that's not something that I think that our party was comfortable with, nor many Canadians.
However, the issue today is that we are united as a country. We have to make tough decisions. I don't -- my colleagues might disagree with me regarding foreign affairs but we are all united and again we have to make tough decisions as parliamentarians, and people don't like decisions. But they're going to going to deter us from standing up from the principles we were elected on and we will continue to do that.
And that's what we'll be doing today, standing up representing the people who sent us there, who sent us to stand up on the core believes of an inclusive and fair and democratic society. COSTELLO: Charlie Angus, thank you so much. I know you have to get
to work. I know parliament begins in just about 40 minutes or so, and thank you so much for being with me this morning. I appreciate it.
ANGUS: Thank you. It's a real honor.
COSTELLO: I'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: Good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me this morning.
We're devoting a lot of our coverage to the deadly shooting near Canada's parliament. As emotions in Canada range from shock to grief to outrage, some citizens say their country will never be the same. In fact, one political columnist for "The National Post" tweeted, quote, "Canada has just lost her innocence."
That columnist is John Ivison. He joins me now live from Ottawa. Good morning, John.
JOHN IVISON, POLITICAL COLUMNIST, NATIONAL POST: Good morning. How are you?
COSTELLO: I'm good. Thank you so much for being with me this morning.
You tweeted some unbelievably emotional pictures. I'm going to show our viewers a couple of them. This one depicts the effort to save the life of Corporal Cirillo. You tweeted another picture showing the emergency workers arriving with the gurney. Still another showing the suspect's car without a license plate.
It's a day later. You say Canada is no longer innocent. How have you changed?
IVISON: Well, just a qualifier, no longer innocent, a little bit in the heat of the moment and maybe a little bit naive, 150 years old we have had terrorists attacks before.
But I think what I meant was that things are going to change in Ottawa -- the way that we do parliamentary business and the way that the military operates freely across the country. I think those things are going to be changed radically and I think we're all a little bit wiser but still a land that's strong and free as our national anthem says.
COSTELLO: Yes. You also tweeted the man responsible for this was not a seasoned terrorist, but a lunatic amateur and you're glad about that. Why?
IVISON: Well, this was a late night reflection over a glass of scotch last night and I was thinking back in the day and some of the things that we as journalists did, for instance standing next to that car which I think a professional terrorist would have loaded with explosives. I mean, I think there were other things that the shooter wandered into the House of Commons. He obviously didn't know where he was going.
If he turned left as he was going down the hall of honor, you've probably shown the video where you see the long hall. If he had turned left at that point, the caucus room for the governing party was in session, the prime minister was at the podium. He could have walked in and taken out half of the government.
COSTELLO: We are so glad he didn't and glad for Mr. Vickers as well.
I'm just wondering again why Canadians are so shocked that this happened and I ask you that because 130 Canadian citizens have gone abroad to join terrorist groups. There's an ISIS recruiting video specifically targeting Canadians. Your government raised the terror level after two soldiers were run down by a car. So, why the surprise, do you think?
