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CNN'S AMANPOUR

Scotland's Referendum on Independence; Scotland's Indelible Mark on That World; Imagine a World

Aired September 17, 2014 - 14:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, will it be better together or is it U.K. RIP? We're live in Scotland's capital as the

vote for independence is just hours away.

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AMANPOUR (voice-over): Amid the final frenzy of campaigning, we'll hear from both sides, including an exclusive interview with the former

British prime minister, Gordon Brown, who's the face and impassioned voice of the union.

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And later in the program, what Scotland means to the world and to her own people.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's so much to be proud of, somewhere that you miss when you go to other countries that are more fabulous in many ways.

But it's home.

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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour, reporting live from Edinburgh, where the campaign to

decide the future of Scotland and of Great Britain all rests on a knife edge now, with less than 12 hours to go, polls still show the vote too

close to call.

So will it be U.K. RIP, the question asked by the British news magazine, "The Economist"? An amazing 97 percent of eligible voters have

registered and turnout could top 80 percent. Now both sides are doing their very best to bring the last few undecideds onto their side.

In an open letter to voters, Alex Salmond, leader of the Scottish National Party and the Yes campaign called on Scots to take control of

their own destiny, saying, "It is the greatest, most empowering moment any of us will ever have: Scotland's future, our country, in our hands."

And in a stem-winder speech of his own, Britain's former prime minister, Gordon Brown, reminded his country men that Scotland is a nation,

one with an eternal bond to the union.

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GORDON BROWN, FORMER PM OF GREAT BRITAIN: We fought two world wars together and there is not a cemetery in Europe that does not have Scots,

English, welsh and Irish lying side by side. And when young men were injured in these wars, they didn't look to each other and ask whether you

were Scots or English, they came to each other's aid because we were part of a common cause.

(APPLAUSE)

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AMANPOUR: Well, that speech is being called Gordon Brown's moment in history. And I spoke exclusively to him from the campaign trail just a few

moments ago.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program. Thank you for joining us tonight.

BROWN: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: It is all ablaze on social media, the speech that you gave earlier today. They're calling it the best speech of your political life,

your moment in history. You've rewritten your political obituary.

Have you saved the union?

BROWN: This is all about change. This is people in Scotland wanting change. Change is being demanded right across Europe; it led to the rise

of nationalist parties in different parts of Europe. It's led to xenophobic and anti-immigrant parties in some part of the continent.

So we're talking about change. And of course the question, then, is what kind of change are we going to see?

And I think people now recognize after the last few days that there's a good kind of change we can improve Britain, we can reform the Scottish

parliament and give it more powers, make people see that the British constitution itself can be reformed as against, I would say, the bad kind

of change that has been on the agenda, really, for the last two years, which is simply to break away and to go back, in a sense, to the 19th

century and form a completely independent state in what is essentially an interdependent world. And I don't think that makes sense.

AMANPOUR: You have been engaged really wholeheartedly. You are now front and center of the No campaign since that poll of September 7th, which

gave the yes vote a couple of percentage points ahead.

Do you believe that the No campaign has sufficiently closed the gap?

BROWN: There are so many opinion polls out there it's difficult to make a judgment about whether they're accurate or not. What we know is

that more people tomorrow may vote for the first time than perhaps in any other election or referendum.

What we also know, however, is that there has been a distinct movement, in my view, back to the no position. I think once people

realized that a no vote did not mean no change, a no vote did not mean nothing would happened, once people realized that there was going to be

change, the Scottish parliament would have more powers, the British constitution itself will have to be revised, I think people then started to

see that there were benefits in being part of the union, which is, after all, a union where we have equal economic and social as well as civil and

political rights and we started to understand that they would sever every link, every link with the United Kingdom that was political or

constitutional if they voted no.

So -- if they voted yes.

So I think things have started to move.

AMANPOUR: You obviously are the father of this devo-max offer that they have been given over the last week or 10 days. On the other hand, SNP

is saying it's too little, too late; we don't even know the details. Are they really going to give us this? Is it just a last-minute, panicky

bribe?

BROWN: Well, by 2016, with the legislation that we're proposing, the Scottish parliament will have extensive powers over health, education,

aspects of employment, economy, transport, infrastructure, a whole range of things. They will not have powers over foreign and defense. They will not

have powers over some of the aspects of the U.K. welfare state, like pensions, which people want to keep at a U.K. level.

And there are major tax raising powers for that Scottish parliament. It is a major transfer of power. And when you add up all the devolution

that's taken place since 1997, never in the history of the island itself have we seen so much decentralization of power, so much of a transfer of

power from Westminster or London to one nation in the United Kingdom.

And I see in the future moving us more towards a quasi-federal state, where something happens to Wales and Northern Ireland and, of course,

Scotland that could be reform in the regions of England, but we will have something that is approaching a federal type settlement which, of course,

has to recognize that 85 percent of the union is from one country, England.

AMANPOUR: You are well aware, of course, that there is a growing backlash among certain members of the political establishment in England,

saying, hang on a second. What are you doing, giving away so much? And by the way, the Scots are being offered more per head in public spending than

the -- that the English people will be.

How do you react to that?

BROWN: Well, first of all, the allocation of resources across the United Kingdom, I don't think it's properly understood. It is historically

based on need. So you don't allocate resources for health or for education simply on the basis of nationality. This -- you don't allocate it on

population share. You allocate it where the need is greatest.

Scotland, 8 percent of the population, of course, but 30 percent of the land area of the country. So there are bigger costs.

Scotland historically more needs because of unemployment and pension requirements and therefore it's hardly surprising that Scotland, on the

basis that is applied across the whole of the United Kingdom, will get more money.

As far as the English reaction, I do not believe that English MPs or MPs in other parts of the country will prevent this legislation going

through; quite the opposite. I believe in other parts of the country over the next year or two we will see the same kind of demands for change,

perhaps not the same settlement but the same kind of demands between.

Britain can no longer think of itself as a centralized state, a unitary state of undiluted Westminster sovereignty. That has changed. And

in some sense, we're moving closer towards the American model of government and models of government that we see, whether it's very considerable

decentralation (sic), Canada, Australia, Germany, very big decentralization of these countries. And I think that is the model that we'll see in the

future.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Brown, as a former prime minister, former Chancellor of the Exchequer, I wonder whether you might spare a thought for the

current prime minister, who said in a private talk with a journalist, that perhaps assassination might be a reprieve to the kind of week that he's had

-- he was obviously joking.

Do you have any empathy for him at all?

BROWN: Well, of course, I take very seriously and I understand the difficulties because we have a terrorist threat and we have had a Scottish

citizen, a British citizen, who has been executed cruelly by ISIS in Syria and so anybody who's in that position and holds the responsibility of

office has got to feel very keenly the loss of a British citizen to terrorism, the pressure that is also on because the next person in line is

also a British citizen.

So I understand the pressures of office. As far as the future of Scotland and the United Kingdom is concerned, I think, to be honest, people

are waking up to the fact that there is a demand for change and this demand for change has got to be met. And you cannot just walk away from it, turn

a blind eye to it.

AMANPOUR: Gordon Brown, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So that is the argument for sticking together.

But my next guest is firmly in favor of independence.

Marco Biagi is one of the youngest members of the Scottish parliament and he joins me right now live here in our open air studio.

Welcome.

MARCO BIAGI, SCOTTISH MP: Good evening.

AMANPOUR: How do you feel? Alex Salmond, the leader of your party, has laid let's do it. This is our moment. Now or never.

Yes. It's our one-off opportunity. This is the kind of choice that we get very often. This isn't like an election. This is a one-off chance

to really do things differently in Scotland and to fundamentally change the -- change society we are living in, to get the governments we vote for to

protect our public services and have governments that pay attention to Scotland, not just once every 300 years, when an opinion poll suggests we

might vote for independence, but every day.

AMANPOUR: It is incredible how energized the people here are. We've already talked about the registration of the voters, the turnout that it's

-- is expected. But you did just hear the big, impassioned voice of the stay together campaign, talking about and in detail the kind of

independence, if you like, or autonomy that you will get if there is a no vote.

He talked about closer to the American federal system, Australia, Canada, Germany, the sort of loose, no centralization of power.

Why is that not good enough?

BIAGI: Well, there's also the European Union as a model of cooperating sovereign states. And that's more like what we would be

looking for.

Ironically, the U.K. government, is actually more interested in filling us out of that particular arrangement.

When you look at the history of the parties opposed independence, they have only ever proposed more change when there has been some kind of move

towards independence. So four years ago, the three main U.K. parties gathered together ideas, contributions, had a consultation, came to a

common position for a few extra powers to the Scottish parliament.

What has changed between then and now? Well, there's been an independence referendum and it looks like it might go the way of

independence.

AMANPOUR: So this, though, is a lot more devolution. I mean, let's face it. It's even getting backlash in Westminster and Wales and other

such places. So it is serious if it is enacted.

My question to you, though, is this: you've mentioned Europe. You mention all sorts of other things.

Today, we've heard the Spanish prime minister say, dream on. It could take eight years for the E.U. to even consider and put an independent

Scotland in the E.U.

We still don't have a currency. I know you've talked about a currency union, but the big chiefs are saying, forget it. Without political unity,

there's no economic union, no currency union.

People are saying, you know, maybe the people of Scotland might be worse off. What about jobs? What about, you know, investment or business

here?

BIAGI: Well, there's a lot in there. I have to say the Spanish prime minister has his eye on a Catalan referendum. So that's really what --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: He also has a voice in voting, in Europe.

BIAGI: -- he does, but we know from the legal opinions that we've put forward by figures such as Sir David Edwards, who's a constituent of mine,

a no vote or a no friend of independence, because he says the kind of arguments that have been put forward by politicians will die in the courts

in Europe and we will see a pragmatic solution. That's also the overwhelming academic opinion as well from independent people that don't

have a dog in this fight.

But we really are looking at in terms of the economic question is who gets to decide the questions about Scotland's economic future. Who decides

who has to pay for the services, whether it's the ordinary working and middle class people of Scotland or if it's others?

Who decides whether we spend 100 billion pounds on an upgrade weapons of mass destruction when we have difficulties being faced by the health

service, when we have food banks feeding the poor?

These are the kinds of decisions that will decide the future of Scotland's prosperity. And we know as well from the last 30 years of

deindustrialization, of many of our industries being run down by choices made by Westminster governments, that we didn't vote for in Scotland, that

the Scotland's economy is much safer if it's in Scotland's hands.

AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, you mentioned about -- you mentioned the National Health Service. Obviously Scotland right now has policy and

funding autonomy, control over the NHS.

How do you answer this leaked report that says you have already got a plan, the SNP, to cut 450 million pounds from the National Health Service

because of what it's going to cost?

BIAGI: Well, we are in charge of the management of the National Health Service --

AMANPOUR: Well, what about this particular -- ?

BIAGI: -- but we can't control the budget that we get in Scotland of, first of which in demands is always health because that is such a cherished

service.

Now it's no secret that there's a rising demand in the NHS and that resources are struggling to match that. There are all kinds of reforms

going through in the NHS to change the structure of care, how it's delivered. That's been very open for many years now. Everyone agrees on

that.

AMANPOUR: So this is correct, the 450 million pounds?

BIAGI: Well, I don't know the exact paper, but certainly we have to deal with an aging population. The real question here, though, is how can

we match that? How can we be able to meet the aspirations and maintain the cherished public NHS if we have a total budget that is set by Westminster,

which has been cut by 7 percent over recent years and we also have to incur the impacts of any privatization decisions that have been south of the

border and their knock-on effects in Scotland? Those two crucial areas are needed to be addressed if we are going to continue to main the NHS as it

is. And those are two changes that only happen with full independence and a yes vote.

AMANPOUR: On that note, Marco Biagi, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

BIAGI: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: And as I said, it is about 12 hours to go before the polls open.

And after a break, we will take a walk along Edinburgh's famous Royal Mile for a glimpse of Scottish history, past, present and future. That's

when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program, where we are live tonight from Edinburgh in Scotland, where just hours from now voters will make a

historic decision whether to remain part of or to split from the United Kingdom after more than 300 years.

On both sides of the argument, everyone can agree that Scotland is a special place which has made an indelible mark on the world. Today I

toured a unique part of Edinburgh through the ages with professor of Scottish history Ewan Cameron. He's from Edinburgh University.

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AMANPOUR: Ewan, here we are on the Royal Mile, is IT?

EWAN CAMERON, PROFESSOR OF SCOTTISH HISTORY: Sure, yes.

AMANPOUR: Real history of the center of Edinburgh.

What is it about brand Scotland, the history that is so dominant, really, in the world?

Well, I think that's right. I think Scotland's brand identity has been recognized throughout the world, even although we have been part of

the United Kingdom for the last 300 and something years.

AMANPOUR: So across the road, we've got basically Parliament Square. It might surprise some people to know that Scotland has long had its own

Parliament Square and parliament.

CAMERON: Well, that's right. Here we have Parliament Square, which is representative of the old Scottish parliament --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: This, of course, is the Saltire.

CAMERON: That's right.

AMANPOUR: How are you feeling?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Excellent, thank you.

AMANPOUR: Good.

CAMERON: Good.

So just behind here in Parliament Hall was one of the sites where the Scottish parliament prior to the 1707 met. That parliament was dissolved

or adjourned, depending on your point of view, in 1707. But behind there is Parliament Hall, which I think is the oldest surviving parliament

building in the United Kingdom. And that parliament existed from medieval times until the union of 1707.

And what I think has given people particularly those on the yes side a reference point, so there's the idea that even with independence, you're

not creating something absolutely new. There is a history of Scotland as an independent kingdom from medieval times until 1707, which can be --

which can be drawn on to -- as an important reference point for modern-day independence.

AMANPOUR: We're heading to this chalk sign. I mean, freedom from tyranny of Westminster. Of course, there's a smiley face and a heart.

CAMERON: This chalking of the pavements is a political tradition. Before Twitter and Facebook, this is the way in which political meetings in

the 1920s would have been advertised, by chalking the pavement. So maybe there's some historical resonance in the chalking of this statue.

AMANPOUR: Maybe indeed, very interesting.

And here we come, perhaps, to one of the most famous people in the world, Adam Smith, and a lot of this referendum is about economic well-

being.

CAMERON: Well, Adam Smith was one of the key intellectuals of the -- of the Scottish Enlightenment. Maybe Smith is the one who's best known by

non-specialists, his books, particularly "The Wealth of Nations," published in 1776, has been drawn on by all sorts of different political traditions,

the Right in Britain, especially during the 1980s, when Ms. Thatcher was in power, drew on one version of Smith's idea, his antimercantilist ideas.

But the people on the Left, I mean, Gordon Brown, the former Labour prime minister, has also written about Smith and tried to draw on Smith's

work to think about a more progressive type of politics.

AMANPOUR: What is Scottishness? What defines Scottishness?

CAMERON: Well, that is a very interesting question. I think at the moment, there's a very strong civic nationalism which is very important.

There is a sense of cultural identity. If you go to the north and west of Scotland, you find people -- fewer people now than there used to be, but

nevertheless speaking Scottish Gaelic, which is one important part of Scotland's distinctive identity.

AMANPOUR: As a historian, what has that 300-year connection with the United Kingdom done for both the United Kingdom and for Scotland?

CAMERON: Well, I think for Scotland, it's very significant. The union of 1707 is, to an extent, an accommodating union. Scotland also

maybe crucially had access to the British Empire during the union between - - after 1707. So particularly the trade with various parts of the empire, the wealth that was being generating in India, particularly in the 18th and

early 19th century and the role that that played in the economic development of Scotland, the link with sugar plantations in the Caribbean

and the impact of slave holding on the -- on the Scottish economy in the 18th and 19th centuries is maybe one of the darker parts of modern Scottish

history, which has been perhaps less emphasized in recent years.

AMANPOUR: And as a historian, how will you feel on Friday morning come what may?

CAMERON: Well, I hope I will -- I hope I will feel positive. I have felt increasingly positive about the debate as it's gone on. I think we've

conducted certainly in a robust way and of course there are occasional headbangers, as we say in Scotland, on both sides.

But I think in general terms the debate's been conducted in a rational and democratic and civil way. So I hope that will continue after the

referendum results on Friday morning.

AMANPOUR: Ewan, thank you very much indeed --

(CROSSTALK)

CAMERON: -- it's a pleasure.

AMANPOUR: -- for being here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So here in Edinburgh we have just confirmed that 90 percent of the postal votes have already been cast. And this is 12 hours to go now

before the voting starts.

One of the features of this debate and referendum is that it's divided even families, even amongst the high-profile advocates. Today I

interviewed Lord David Steel, former speaker of the Scottish parliament, former leader of the U.K. Liberal Party and a firm supporter of the union.

But he told me, as I said, even with his own household, views are divided.

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LORD DAVID STEEL, FORMER SPEAKER, SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT: By three children, two are no and one is yes. And they're not just passing voters.

They're very strong on the subject. So the only way to keep calm is for the family not to discuss it.

AMANPOUR: What about your wife?

STEEL: My wife, too. She's wobbly a bit, but she's yes.

AMANPOUR: She's a yes but a wobbly yes?

STEEL: She's a wobbly yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And we'll be carrying much more of that interview later in this hour.

We'll be back with a final thought or two from the very people who'll decide Scotland's fate with a bit of Scottish love the sun will come out

tomorrow and so will the voters -- when we come back.

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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, we've heard the arguments on union versus independence. Now imagine a world where those issues aren't just

points in a national debate; they are deeply personal. Here are a few encounters on an Edinburgh street.

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AMANPOUR: What does Scotland mean to you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything. And I'm going to vote no tomorrow. OK?

AMANPOUR: And what is everything?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I'm born here, I live here. I'm 73. I've lived in Edinburgh all my life. I don't want to live anywhere else.

AMANPOUR: And when you think of Scotland, what do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the (INAUDIBLE) we should be part of the U.K. It's (INAUDIBLE). (INAUDIBLE).

AMANPOUR: If I say Scotland to you, what do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unity. We're a united nation. You know, we're part of the U.K. also a part of an independent nation, although we are

united.

AMANPOUR: So we notice your kilts. What does Scotland mean to you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's home. It's home. It's somewhere to be proud of, somewhere that you miss when you go to other countries that are more

fabulous in many ways. But it's home. It's cozy. It keeps you happy.

AMANPOUR: What does Scotland mean to you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scotland does not want nuclear weapons. OK? All the best. And vote yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And we'll be here tomorrow for that all-important vote. But that is it for our program tonight. In the meantime, remember always

contact us at our website, amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank you for watching and goodbye from historic Edinburgh..

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