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@THISHOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Michael Brown Shot at Least 6 Times; Witnesses Videotaped Shooting; Michael Brown Autopsy Reveals New Details

Aired August 18, 2014 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MICHAELA PERIERA, CNN ANCHOR: Danny is sitting with me here in the studio. You've had a chance to listen to the press conference, listened to the pathologist, you have listened to our pathologist here. What are some sticking points for you in terms of all this? Obviously, as a defense or as a prosecution, you want to know what went down. How many shots were fired, whether the young man was coming at the officer? What stood out how here?

DANNY CEVALLOS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Michaela, you almost can't keep track of the swing in this case. Every day we wake up and someone has rearranged all the chess pieces and today let me tell you what I'm focusing on. The narrative up until now appeared to be that he may have been fleeing. That's why we were talking about this fleeing felon rule from Tennessee v. Garner. It's a Supreme Court case that authorizes deadly force even when an alleged felon is trying to flee. We all expected to see a few bullets in the back. Instead we saw six which seems like a lot, and wounds which arguably could come from the front or from the rear. And certainly that top shot on the top of the head is doubly concerning because it changes the narrative considerably. Evidence suggests that he wasn't fleeing and was facing the officer. If that true, it totally changes the legal analysis in my opinion, because you don't necessarily have someone who is fleeing. Now the officer has to explain six shots. He has to explain a reason for each of those six shots. He has to have justifiably been in fear of his life or fear of some eminent serious bodily arm.

PEREIRA: Especially in the timing of it. Some eyewitnesses report that his hands were in the air. Is there any possibility?

Is Dr. Wecht still with us because I want to ask about that?

Is he with us or no.

DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, I'm here. I'm here.

PEREIRA: Dr. Wecht, is there any possible scenario where he could have been shot in the back but turned around. Is there any way or am I just imaging things?

WECHT: Well, there are no shots that have been described in the back, so you can just, as I say, engage in visual conjecture as to how the body may have been turned. I think that insofar as the arms are concerned, there is no problem in understanding that which may appear to be from front could really have been from the rear. I would like to make a comment calling upon my legal background if I

may, fleeing felons, there's felonies and there's felonies. Neighborhood boys, no weapons, felony. They didn't know anything about what had transpired at the cigars store before. The felony, to get off the street, even if he did, I don't know, possibly take a swing at the officer and runaway. I'm not excusing that or justifying it or rationalizing it, but is this the kind of fleeing felony which entitles an officer to shoot multiple times to shoot somebody. Who is in danger here? These are things that have to be considered in this case.

PEREIRA: Danny?

CEVALLOS: I agree with the doctor except that it's becoming a diminishing issue and by that I mean there are possibilities that this shooting could be justified but each day depending on the facts, today at least it seems a little more vanishing because, yes, in under certain circumstances, I say that again, certain circumstances, the police may use deadly force. Not only in Missouri, but pursuant to federal law and supreme court case law. But the facts have to align in the right position and the key is reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily harm. If he can show that and justify six bullets, then that's his defense.

PEREIRA: Danny Cevallos, Dr. Wecht, thank you so much.

Last thought from George Howell.

You've been there on the ground. I'm curious what you are hearing where you are. If you feel this is providing answers or merely more questions.

GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's a fascinating discussion and a lot of people are talking about those issues, but I want to bring you right here to what's happening on the ground right now. You know I've been moving around a lot in this panel. Kind of stepping out of the camera back and forth. I'll show you why. You can see police have set up around this qt gas station. Keep in mind for the last several days this is where people have been protesting, hundreds of people and in fact maybe even thousands of people have been protesting and now police are saying that they are not allowed to protest here.

Don mentioned this just a few minutes ago, what has been playing out here in the last few minutes. We've seen a lot of very angry discussions. We've seen some heated exchanges between police and protesters, people are very up set that they are being told to leave this spot. We're looking at -- it play out here. You see the police officers talking to people. Some of the exchanges have been heated. People are told that me -- they must walk along the sidewalk. They cannot congregate here at the qt. Probably good we weren't at the air a few minutes ago, some of the words you would have heard you probably wouldn't have wanted to be broadcasted. It's a volatile situation right now. More officers are coming in. We're checking to see how this will play out.

PEREIRA: Those officers, they are the highway patrol under the command of Ron -- I've forgotten his name --

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: Johnson, thank you. Is that who those officers are? Is that the department they belong to?

HOWELL: Well, we understand that Captain Johnson is overseeing all of this, so one would presume that these officers are working under his direction. But again, this is a big change in policy. Again, the last several days, this has been the place where people would congregate and now they are told they are not able to. It has sparked some controversy here. We'll continue to monitor it, but you know, we're seeing how people will react to the fact this they are not going to be able to be here.

PEREIRA: You and Don have been doing a tremendous job for us on the ground. We know it's volatile. We know the press themselves, you guys have had your own encounters with police. Once they hear you are part of the press corps they back off. I know you are doing a good job. But of course. safety first, guys.

HOWELL: Michaela, I do want to add one thing. I'm so sorry about that. We did get some updated information. According to the Black Panther group that has been involved in the situations out here, they have called for a five-day moratorium on protests. What that means as far as protests, we'll pass it along to you, but again that group is calling for a five-day moratorium on protests.

PEREIRA: We need a moratorium on violence and aggression. We need to urge calm. We certainly need to see some calm prevail there in Ferguson.

George Howell, thank you.

Our big thank to Cyril Wecht, Danny Cevallos, George Howell, Don Lemon, Joe Johns. Great from all of you.

Up ahead, we're getting an opportunity to speak with a witness who recorded what she could on her cell phone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PIAGET CRENSHAW, WITNESS: What we're looking at is Officer Darren Wilson to the right. He's just looking over the body, just looking baffled and bewildered, trying to explain to the officer what had I just done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: That is eyewitness, Ms. Crenshaw. We're going to hear how the officer behaved after that shooting. We'll hear from her coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PEREIRA: Welcome back to @THISHOUR. The National Guard now being deployed to help keep the peace in Ferguson, Missouri, following another night of violent protesters over the shooting of teenager Michael Brown. An independent autopsy reveals that he was shot at least six times.

We have new video now from a witness to that shooting provided exclusively to CNN.

I want to warn you what you are about to see is hard to watch. You don't see the shooting, but you do see what happened immediately afterward.

The man seen walking is believed to be Darren Wilson the officer who shot and killed Michael Brown.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRENSHAW: Bless his soul. The police shot this boy outside my apartment. They killed him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PEREIRA: Earlier this morning, I had an opportunity to speak with the woman that -- the young woman, she's only 19 years old. You can hear her. She's very upset. I asked her why she felt the need to record what was going on outside her window.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: From it all initially happening, I knew this was not right. I knew the police shouldn't have been chasing this young boy and firing at the same time, and the fact that he got shot in his face, it was something that clicked in me like no, somebody else needs to see this. This isn't right. I got to record. So you pulled out your cell phone camera and started rolling. How long after it all happened? You saw the whole scenario play out, right?

CRENSHAW: Yes, ma'am. But I waited a good 30 seconds. I had to run in the House and get my phone. I had to put on the camera and started recording what I saw.

PEREIRA: Walk me through that.

CRENSHAW: What we're looking at is Officer Darren Wilson to the right. He's just looking over the body, just looking baffled and bewildered of sorts, trying to explain to the officer what had I just done, and then we get this picture of him pacing back and forth, just like, in disbelief, so like it's like -- it's like he understands that this shot this boy in the face and that boy of any armed and to me this video it seems relevant for this time period, especially including the fact that Chief Jackson said that the reason that this video wasn't even on the media at the time when it should have been was because he wanted to get all the information out at the same time, you know, under the freedom of information act, but they could have easily given me these videos as well because they confiscated my phone.

PEREIRA: Take me back to the moment when you see a tussle at the police cruiser. What was going on?

CRENSHAW: From my point of view, I cannot tell what exactly what was going on. It looked like he was trying to pull him into the car. It looks like he was trying to do such, and you know, Brown being a bigger fellow, that didn't seem to be working. Of course he got away and it seemed to have upset the officer.

PEREIRA: And then what happened?

CRENSHAW: He got out and ran and just started chasing after the boy. I'm hearing shots fired. Clearly none of them hit them, but one I think did graze him as they said on the autopsy report and at the end, he just turned around, after I'm guessing he felt the bullet graze his arm, he turned around and then was shot multiple times, and --

(CROSSTALK)

PEREIRA: The autopsy is now showing that he was shot from the front, not the back.

CRENSHAW: Exactly.

PEREIRA: Does that square with what you saw?

CRENSHAW: Definitely. Because he was running away, when you turned toward the cop, is when he let off the most shots.

PEREIRA: Let's go to the point where I you sound really upset.

CRENSHAW: I haven't even lived there a month. I had just moved there out of my parents' home and to see something like this outside of my window as I'm trying to go to work, it's traumatizing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PEREIRA: Remember that young lady, Piaget Crenshaw is just 19 years old. She had just moved out on her own. She had been living on her own for a month. She was, supposed to go to work that morning. They are running late. If they would have been on time, they wouldn't have been there to watch all of this to play out and she wouldn't have recorded that incident on her cell phone. She's really torn up about the incident. Afterwards, I had an opportunity to talk to her off camera, she said she felt there was a really big storm cloud over her community of Ferguson and she hoped that that would move on and that calm would be restored and that there would be justice for Michael Brown.

CNN has also reached out to Ferguson police for comment. So far, we have not received any comment thus far.

We're going to take a short break here. We know the autopsy is revealing some new details about Michael Brown's death. What about the officer who fired those shots? How will this or will it explain his actions? We'll take a look at that ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PEREIRA: Welcome back to @THISHOUR. I'm Michaela Pereira.

The preliminary autopsy shows Michael Brown was shot at least six times. They confirmed there were six shots to the body. There could be more. Again, it's just preliminary. Two others are pending.

We do want to bring back our legal minds, legal analyst, Danny Cevallos. Also joining me attorney and radio personality, Mo Ivory.

Want to talk about it all and delve into it.

Danny, I'll start with you, because you're sitting right beside me. You mentioned about this briefly, that the officer -- because we haven't focused on that aspect of this. We know that Dr. Bodden says he wants to see the medical exam of him as well. We'll talk about that in a second. He has to justify now those six shots to Michael Brown. Talk more about that.

CEVALLOS: Before this autopsy came out, we had a narrative about whether the initial stop was justified. Yes, it may have been for jay walking. But then thereafter if the officer gained some probable cause of a dangerous crime or he's attacked, then he might get to justification of deadly force. Now, when the autopsy came out, if we had seen one bullet wound, perhaps to center mass in the front, I don't know how much that would have changed things. But six bullets means that no matter what the reason for the initial stop, the officer is going to have to justify each and every one of those shots, including of course the one to the apex to the top of the head.

PEREIRA: The medical examiner saying he would have survived those other shots, the body shots, the shots to his arm.

Mo, let me ask you what is your take on how these autopsy findings provide evidence -- will impact even the charges that this officer potential chi could face.

MO IVORY, ATTORNEY & HOST, THE MO IVORY SHOW: Oh, they impact it hugely. Of course, waiting for the full autopsy report, but preliminary, we know he was -- they did say those shots came from the front. There's only one shot that's in question about where it came from and that's the shot to the arm. That very last shot was as Michael was falling to the ground, which only -- I don't know who could interpret it any other way then sort of the last execution shot that took Michael's life. Imagine being the parents of Michael Brown and hearing he could have survived five shots but that last sixth one was the one that killed him.

What I also found to be very interesting about the witness that you just spoke to a minute ago and the video that she had of Officer Darren Wilson was he wasn't even trying to come to Michael's aid. He just shot him down and then he just stared at him. I don't understand anybody that would see a child bleeding out of their head or an adult and not bend down immediately and try to stop the bleeding or check if they're alive or give some aid. He just stood there and stared at him, which to me goes to his state of mind. A complete state of, oh, my god, what did I just do. PEREIRA: You could chalk that up to shock, too.

IVORY: Sure. Sure.

PEREIRA: The man's just involved in a fatal shooting. Danny, you can account for that.

CEVALLOS: Absolutely, in times like these, I'm --

(CROSSTALK)

CEVALLOS: Everybody becomes an expert on how I would have reacted. I have to say, when you look at the video, you could interpret it as, boy, that seems a little cold standing there, but he can't leave. He has to be on the premises.

IVORY: No, I understand that --

(CROSSTALK)

CEVALLOS: Hold on. The problem, everybody become, an expert on human emotion during times of crisis. And I'm not -- it doesn't --

IVORY: Danny, I understand that.

CEVALLOS: Why don't we stick with the facts we know. Those will be the autopsy records. Watching an officer walk around, I don't know that's as compelling or as valuable information as hard science. And that's the autopsy.

PEREIRA: Quick response, then I want to move on to another topic --

IVORY: Sure, absolutely.

PEREIRA: Go ahead.

IVORY: Absolutely, the forensic evidence is important, and I'm not minimizing that at all as compared to what the officer's reaction is but you also can't minus out what somebody's state of mind is. You cannot compare Darren Wilson's response to a lay person's response at a killing --

(CROSSTALK)

CEVALLOS: What would you have wanted him to do in that video?

IVORY: I would have wanted him to help Michael Brown. I would have wanted him to see if he was still alive. Call an ambulance. Give him immediate care. That's what I would have wanted him to do --

(CROSSTALK)

CEVALLOS: If he was still living. If he was still living.

PEREIRA: OK, let -- the two of you are very passionate about this case and I appreciate that, but I think there's so much angst and so much frustration and tempers are flying in this case, I really want to urge calm.

One of the issues is we saw a photo of the officer in question of the officer that shot Michael Brown was put up quickly on YouTube -- or not YouTube, pardon me, put up on yahoo.com. It has since been taken down. And here we are showing it. I question us showing that picture right now. But this potentially could influence the case. How do you see that?

CEVALLOS: I have an unusual take on this. We see those photographs. I don't think that the government was on gaited to turn over Facebook photographs. At the same time, the government may choose to release. Anyone who does criminal defense, they know police often have their official shots. Those unfortunately, they're not lit that well. The guys look very serious in them. I wonder if that photograph had been released if that would have been worse for him. It's not like he's doing anything unusual in those photographs, in his uniform, carrying out his duties. I wonder if it might have been worse if they released a more formal photograph because sometimes those don't necessarily paint someone in the best picture. They come off looking sometimes like mug shots. But this would be one, pretty harmless.

(CROSSTALK)

IVORY: If you treat the victim one way, you treat the perpetrator the same way. We've seen so much of Michael Brown and very, very little of Darren. So I think it's very important, whatever they have, to be transparent. There's what's going to happen in the court of the law, in the court of law, and then there's what's happening on the street, there's what's happening in the community. If you want -- if you want to stop riots, an arrest of Darren Wilson will help that.

PEREIRA: Look, they are urging calm on the streets. We're adding our voice to that as well. We think that's the only way they cab calmly get to the bottom of this without other people getting hurt.

A big thank you to Mo Ivory and Danny Cevallos. Thanks for keeping it cool for us, guys. We appreciate it. We'll talk with you again, I'm sure.

This is only part of the story, this autopsy. There's so much more to get to. My colleague Ashleigh Banfield will pick this up.

Thanks for joining me @THISHOUR. Her show starts after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)