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CNN NEWSROOM

Refugees Fleeing from ISIS; Dorian Johnson Describes Shooting of Michael Brown; Second Night of Protests over Teen's Death; Interview with NAACP Pres. Cornell William Brooks; Shock Jock Dresses as Bin Laden, Crosses Border

Aired August 12, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And I'm told by the refugees who are coming across that they have been helped by PKK fighters to escape ISIS in Iraq. In some cases they have been escorted on foot for miles to the Syrian border, where they are then met with vehicles organized by the PKK that eventually bring them to this border so they can come back into what is technically part of Iraq, though it's an autonomous region ruled by Kurdistan.

It's complicated. This is an ethnically diverse area with different factions in control of the different parts of borders. This is a cross-border phenomenon right now. But the important thing to keep in mind is that there is one group that is armed that has terrified hundreds of thousands of people, often based strictly on their religious or ethnic identity. And there is an active campaign of ethnic and sectarian cleansing under way here in the 21st century. And you are seeing it, these bedraggled people, leading their children, carrying their babies, leading their elderly. You are seeing it in front of you right now.

And the Kurdish border guards I talked to who are on the bridge here, they say that the thousands of people we've seen cross just in the last hour or so, Carol, it's nothing, nothing compared to the flow of humanity that they saw over the last two days over this border -- ok?

And those people are camping out under the hot sun here in Iraqi- Kurdistan on the side of the roads now. That's it. This is madness.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: It is. Ivan, stay with us. I want to bring in Peter Galbraith, a former U.S. ambassador to Croatia and Chris Hill, a former U.S. ambassador to Iraq.

Welcome to you both. Actually, are they there now? All right. Peter, you are there, can you hear me?

PETER GALBRAITH, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO CROATIA: I can.

COSTELLO: You can. Ok. I wanted to ask you about the Kurds. They seem to be the good guys in this fight. They actually seem to like Americans, so why not arm them, give them ammunition?

GALBRAITH: Well, the Kurdish people are the most pro American people in the Middle East. The government is very pro American. It's also created a tolerant and democratic society. The tolerance I think is very evident in the way in which they have served as a safe haven for now over a million people who have come in, in the last six weeks, more or less the equivalent of 50 million people coming into the United States as to proportion of the population.

The Yazidis, Christians, who the Kurds have historically protected, but also Sunnis and Shiites so absolutely we should be protecting them. Even though who think -- I suppose most persons do that George Bush's war was a great mistake, it doesn't mean that we should ignore this one part of the country that has turned out successfully and if they are unable to defend this territory, then we're looking at really millions of people whose lives are in peril.

And I have to commend Ivan Watson for that amazingly courageous, helicopter flight reporting it. It reminds me frankly of what went on during the Bosnian War and the heroism of Christiane Amanpour and the way CNN brought that news home to everybody.

COSTELLO: We're pretty proud of Ivan Watson ourselves. Ivan, back to you for a second, I don't know if you've got a chance to talk to the Kurds, but do they feel that the United States is helping them out enough?

WATSON: Well, I think they want more. I think that the air strikes were welcomed greatly. It brought a great sigh of relief. The Kurds have been openly, enormously thankful. And, you know, I've been on the front lines with Kurdish Peshmerga who say things like "Kurdistan and America we're friends, we're friends."

The U.S. has a long history of helping the Kurds ever since 1991 where we saw similar scenes. There's the flow of people has slowed down for a moment here across the bridge from Syria into Iraqi Kurdistan, but the U.S. has a long history of helping these people in northern Iraq, the Iraqi Kurds who have been subjected to decade after decade, periods of ethnic cleansing of genocidal policies by the Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein. And it appears we're heading towards another period that Ambassador Galbraith knows quite well when the U.S. protected the Kurds with a no-fly zone over northern Iraq.

You've got a certain version of that, as one senior Kurdish leader explained to it, instead of a no-fly zone that we had for more than a decade, now we have an American aerial umbrella protecting Iraqi Kurdistan -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Peter is there any negative to further arming the Kurds on America's part?

GALBRAITH: I don't think so. I think it's important for viewers to understand the difference between what happened to the Iraqi army and what's gone on in Kurdistan. The Iraqi army which was heavily armed by the United States basically collapsed. They ran away. They -- in some cases, they turned their weapons over to ISIS; in other cases ISIS captured them. That's why ISIS has the military advantage that it has.

We didn't arm the Peshmerga and so they were driven back because they were faced with armored vehicles and superior weaponry and also they were running out of ammunition and having to care for all those people that Ivan Watson was describing.

But they withdrew as units. So they are still there. They are capable of fighting. Their weapons were not captured by ISIS, and here we are protecting the population. Now, some people may be concerned that this would lead to the break up of Iraq. Well, I would say first that's already happened. And secondly there isn't any border between the central government and Kurdistan. ISIS between them, so we're really -- and there's no way that the central government is going to recapture this territory. There isn't an Iraqi army anymore. So we're really talking about protecting a successful part of Iraq and we're really talking about protecting a place that's a safe haven for over a million people who have come into it as well as the five million people who live there.

COSTELLO: All right. With that said, I want to bring in Chris Hill, a former U.S. ambassador to Iraq right now and ask him, in light of what Peter just said, Chris, why doesn't the United States push for the Kurds to have their own independent state?

CHRIS HILL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: Well, I don't think the subject of an independent state is what needs to be done today. I think today what needs to be done is if I can say we need a little mission creep. We need more military assistance. We need more air strikes, and we need a more resolute attitude to this ISIS.

I can understand why the administration held off pending the resolution of this political soap opera in Baghdad, but as your piece has, your coverage has really shown, we need to be very much involved and when I say we need to be, it's out of this responsibility to protect these people.

So I'm very pleased to see we've begun more frequent air strikes, but I think we need an overall strategy, working with other countries, and might I add, I mean it is a deafening silence from the Sunni Arab World toward ISIS. They seemed to be more concerned about which SHIA leader emerges in Baghdad. In fact, ISIS is a threat not only to those Kurds on that mountain but really all over the region. And it's high time someone put together a diplomatic process to have a lot of countries pulling together on this.

So I think we've got a lot of work to do and I think these images that you are showing are really just the beginning of all this.

COSTELLO: Yes. Let's go back to the Iraqi-Syrian border and check back in with Ivan Watson. For our viewers just joining us, describe what our viewers are seeing, Ivan.

WATSON: Ok. Over here is a bridge that crosses the Peshkhabor (ph) River. That separates Syria on the opposite bank over there from Iraqi Kurdistan here in northern Iraq. And what's been happening for three days now, people here tell me, is a constant stream of humanity, of people, most of them coming on foot, but as you can see here a couple of vehicles loaded with civilians.

These are Iraqis who were so afraid of ISIS that their only way out to escape the ISIS onslaught was to run across the border into Syria. And now they are coming from Syria back into a safe part of Iraqi Kurdistan that's controlled by the Kurds. According to the border guards who are working on the bridge there, they say the flow of humanity -- and I estimate we've probably seen thousands of people come in, most of them on foot within the last hour that we've been here -- they tell me that that's a fraction of the number of people who crossed the previous two days.

And the question is where do these people go? They are exhausted. They have at best they are carrying maybe a bag with a few of their belongings which just indicates how quickly they fled their homes and what kind of terror they must have faced.

When they come here, there's some medical assistance. They get some food, Carol, but most of these people, I would bet money, are going to be sleeping on the side of a road tonight because we already see tens of thousands of those displaced people doing that very same thing right now, in the areas around me -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, Ivan. I'm going to head to the Pentagon right now to check in with Barbara Starr. We have word that more military advisers may be on their way to Iraq. Barbara, what are you hearing?

BARBARA STAR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. We are hearing indeed that as soon as later today the administration could announce perhaps as many as 75 or more additional military advisers going to Iraq to deal, to try and deal specifically with this crisis involving these thousands of people stranded on this mountain.

So far, advisers have really been working on trying to help the Iraqi military. That is going to shift to some extent. New personnel may go to work specifically this problem. How many people are still up there stranded and how to get them off the mountain? We've had hints from the Pentagon and from the White House for the last several days that they are -- and I quote -- assessing the problem.

Their problem right now is to get some people much closer to this area in Erbil and into northern Iraq and get them to figure out how many people are really up there and develop the options to get them off the mountain.

The U.S., of course, has ruled out U.S. troops on the ground. They want to work with the international community, so they are seeing -- where Ivan is, these kind of humanitarian corridors open up. They want to see can they do more of this. Can they start moving people off this mountain but there's a very significant military component to this, nonetheless.

They are -- pardon me -- they are going to continue to bomb and strike at ISIS targets near Sinjar mountain to push ISIS back and try to keep these humanitarian corridors safe. We saw another strike in the area just a short time ago as you reported. Four strikes in the area yesterday. Expect to see that. More U.S. military strikes against ISIS positions, around Sinjar Mountain and the development of options to try and work to get more humanitarian corridors opened up. Trying to figure out how many people are really there and how to get them out of there -- Carol. COSTELLO: All right. Barbara Starr, thanks so much.

I want to go back to former U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Chris Hill. You were talking about a more organized strategy. What does that sound like to you?

HILL: Well, first of all I think what we're doing is a very good start and I think more strikes against ISIS, creating refugee corridors, that's the right way to go. It is interesting how this is making for strange bedfellows, because the Kurdish Workers Party that you alluded to in Syria, I mean, this was a group that's been on the U.S. terrorism list. This is a group that's carried out many, many terrorist attacks in Turkey itself.

So nonetheless I mean they are clearly on the right side of this equation right now. So I think there's got to be a lot of work with them and, of course, the key element right now is the Kurdish regional government under President Barzani in Erbil. So that needs to be -- that diplomatic channel needs to be followed. We need to really start pouring aid in there, military aid. We've begun, but I think we need to do more.

And I think it's also encouraging what is happening in Baghdad, that we have a new prime minister in the works, Abadi who is a very decent guy, and I think will be more acceptable to many more Iraqis. Again, I would like to see the Sunni community kind of step up and explain that they would rather work with Abadi than work with this ISIS. And again we don't hear a lot from the Sunni community that seems either intimidated by ISIS or unwilling to denounce them with the vigor that I think they need to be denounced. So many more chapters to go in this.

COSTELLO: You are right about that. Chris Hill, thank you so much, along with Peter Galbraith, Ivan Watson and Barbara Starr. We'll be back with much more in the NEWSROOM after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Protesters and police faced off for a second straight night in a St. Louis suburb over the shooting death of an unarmed African- American teenager. As you know, tension has been boiling over in the predominantly black town of Ferguson since an officer shot and killed 18-year-old Michael Brown on Saturday. Brown was walking with his friend Dorian Johnson. Johnson gave a reporter with our affiliate KMOV a vivid description of what he says happened. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DORIAN JOHNSON, MICHAEL BROWN'S FRIEND: Me and my friend was walking down the street in the middle of the street, and we wasn't causing any harm to nobody. We had no weapons on us at all. We were just walking, having a conversation. No cars were blowing at us or honking at us like we were holding up traffic or anything like that.

A police officer squad car pulled up, when he pulled up, he said get the f on the sidewalk. And we told the officer we was not but a minute away from my destination and we would shortly be out the street. We was having a conversation. And he went about his way for about one or two seconds as we continue to walk, and then he reversed his truck, his car. And in a manner to where it almost hit us and it blocked both lanes off the way he turned his car, so he pulled up on aside us.

He tried to thrust his door to us. But we were so close to us that it ricocheted off us and it bounced back into him. And I guess that, you know got him a little upset. At that time, he reached out the window. He didn't get out of the car. He just reached his arm out the window and grabbed my friend around his neck, and was trying to -- as he was trying to choke my friend and he was trying to get away and the officer then reached out and grabbed his arm to pull him into the car, so now it was like officer is pulling him inside the car. He's trying to pull away.

And at no time the officer said that he was going to do anything until he pulled out his weapon. His weapon was drawn and he said I'll shoot you or I'm going to shoot, and in the same moment, the first shot went off and we looked at him. He was shot, and there was blood coming from him and we took off running and as we took off running, I ducked and hid for my life because I was fearing for my life and I hid by the first car that I saw. My friend, he kept running, and he told me to keep running because he feared for me too, so as he was running, the officer was trying to get out of the car and once he got out the car, he pursued my friend, but his weapon was drawn. Now, he didn't see any weapon drawn at him or anything like that, us going for no weapon. His weapon was already drawn when he got out of the car. He shot again and once my friend felt that shot, he turned around and he put his hands in the earth and he started to get down, but the officer still approached with his weapon drawn and he fired several more shots, and my friend died.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: All right. Let's talk some more about this. I'm joined by the national president of the NCAAP, Cornell William Brooks. Mr. Brooks, I'd like to thank you for waiting so long. You were waiting through the breaking news out of Iraq. We really appreciate t.

CORNELL WILLIAM BROOKS, PRESIDENT, NAACP: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: I wanted to know what you thought about Brown's friend's description of what he says happened that night.

BROOKS: The NAACP has been in touch with several witnesses that were working with the Justice Department on who provided a very different narrative than that provided by the police, and so this young man's testimony, his account, is very disturbing because it stands in stark contrast to what the police have said, which is why so many people are concerned.

COSTELLO: Why do you think it's taken police so long to release this -- the police officer's name?

BROOKS: We have no idea. What we do know is we have a community on edge. We have a community widely concerned about the loss of life by a young man who was headed toward college, just having graduated from high school. And so we do not know why they are taking so long. What we do know is that they need to respond to the tensions in the community with a sense of urgency, with a complete transparent investigation, and they need to work with this community to ensure that the community knows that police are there to protect them while respecting them. That's critically important.

COSTELLO: Once the police release more information, tensions will likely rise again. How is the NAACP relieving that tension so we don't see the looting we did the other night?

BROOKS: One of the things that's important is the NAACP has been in the community of Ferguson for at least 60 years, over half century and in St. Louis for over a hundred years. We are here on the ground. We have chapter -- branch presidents who are doing the work. And so one of the ways in which they are keeping the calm is by being out on the streets, working with the Justice Department, to ease tensions and to turn anger into action. That's critically important, and that's what we're doing.

Can you say something to the looters, to anybody who is thinking of looting directly so that they can know that this isn't helping their case at all?

BROOKS: Well, according to Michael Brown's family, this was a young man who never got into a fight, who was non-violent, who had a wonderful sense of humor and the best way to honor this young man's memory is by seeking justice non-violently. Let's be clear here. Martin Luther King did not live and die so that the grandsons and granddaughters of the civil rights revolution might seek justice violently. We don't have to do that. We can do so in a nonviolent fashion.

Most of the young people in these communities have been seeking justice, airing their grievances in a constructive way. We need to continue to do that. The NAACP is working with these young people to do that.

COSTELLO: Cornell William Brooks, thank you so much for joining me this morning. And thanks again for sticking around. I appreciate it.

BROOKS: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: We're going to take a break. We'll be back with much more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: We brought you such heavy depressing news this morning it's time for some fun, right? You've seen it before, shock jock trying to prove a point by being either dishonest or just plain silly but dressing up as Osama bin Laden while trying to cross the U.S.-Mexico border, now that's ridiculous. Here's Jeanne Moos.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: It's the walking dead -- a dead terrorist walking across the Texas-Mexico border?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even Osama bin Laden could cross.

MOOS: He's back. Not bin laden, James O'Keefe, the conservative film maker known for his creative editing, who once dressed up as a pimp to ensnare the community activist group ACORN. Now he's dressing up as bin laden and wading across the Rio Grande to show how easy it is to evade border security.

One admiring Web site has a nickname for him. Osama bin O'Keefe. He also interviewed the (inaudible) County Texas sheriff about this section of the border fence.

JAMES O'KEEFE: I guess it ends, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the end of it, right there.

MOOS: But the border patrol says there's a reason Osama bin O'Keefe slipped through. That agents noticed the convoy and determined that the vehicles were from the Hudspeth County Sheriff's Department. Agents didn't realize it was a film maker, but entry was not challenged because the group at the border was law enforcement.

Now, James O'Keefe isn't the first to make a point by wading, swimming, even marching into the Rio Grande. A former "Apprentice" contestant and unsuccessful candidate for Congress, waded in atop an elephant with a Mariachi band.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And there's nobody here.

MOOS: The border patrol said no problem because the elephants never actually crossed over to Mexico. They were detained and sprayed for ticks.

Recently Fusion's Jorge Ramos swam across the Rio Grande with lots of border agents watching but he was trying to show how tricky the crossing can be. Good thing O'Keefe picked a shallow part and didn't try to swim in his Osama bin Laden get up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you feel safe?

MOOS: I feel hot.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: I don't think I'm going to say anything else.

Thank you for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello. "@THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA" starts now.