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The Minister and the Movie Star; Jolie on Global Summit, on Perpetrators of Rape, on Her Actress Roles, on Hillary Clinton; Hague on Iraq Violence; Imagine a World

Aired June 11, 2014 - 14:00:00   ET


CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight, on the special weekend edition of our program, shame the aggressors, not the victims. My interview

with an unlikely pair leading the fight against a global horror: rape as a weapon of war.


ANGELINA JOLIE, ACTRESS AND ACTIVIST: How is it that this, I meet a girl that's been gang-raped by 15 men with pipes and pieces of wood and

she's had fistulas and she's had to be sewn back together and she's a child? And nobody's going to be held accountable?


AMANPOUR: Plus, the ugly side of the beautiful game. Will strikes and protests mar the World Cup that's kicked off this week in Brazil?


AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to our weekend edition. I'm Christiane Amanpour.

It is one of the great mass crimes of the modern era: the use of rape as a weapon of war. A unique event in London this week was called to

address the issue, the Summit to End Sexual Violence in Conflict. The biggest of its kind, it involved 140 nations and took two years of hard

work to pull off.

And now, a new international protocol has been launched for investigating, holding accountable, and finally ending impunity for perpetrators as well

as finding justice for victims.

I sat down with the prime movers behind this initiative who could perhaps be seen as unusual bedfellows: the British foreign secretary William Hague

and the Hollywood star Angelina Jolie. Here, at Lancaster House in London.

AMANPOUR: Welcome. Welcome back to the program, both of you.

Can I just say, you've got to admit you are the odd couple.



JOLIE: Whatever works.

AMANPOUR: Whatever works.

HAGUE: That was the idea.

AMANPOUR: I want to ask you, what do you hope that Angelina will bring to this table?

HAGUE: Well, Angelina brings what governments cannot bring. I think that this is why we work together and why it works on this subject, that

you need a government, a major government of the world to be involved in this with our diplomatic network, with our development budget, with our

convening power to bring together something like this summit, to move motions at the U.N. Security Council and so on.

But you also need to be able to reach people who are not usually interested in what governments say and there are people who will take

notice of what she says that aren't that interested in what a foreign minister of any country says, let's be honest about it.

AMANPOUR: Well, this is obviously something that you have taken very close to your heart. Your first film that you directed was about this

issue, the violation of women in war in Bosnia.

I guess I want to ask you what specifically brought you to the table on this issue? What one thing captured your imagination, your attention?

JOLIE: Well, I had been working for so many years in the field and there is not -- there are so many injustices in the world. There are so

many issues. And there isn't one that is more important than the other or more -- but you are moved by someone you meet.

And for me, it was time and again meeting young girls, boys and women and men who talked about -- publicly could talk about all of their pains,

but privately would become very emotional and tell me about the rape and what had happened to them, or that the child they couldn't -- they couldn't

tell that it -- that the child was a child of rape or they couldn't -- simply couldn't function anymore and they carried this deep shame and this

deep pain. And it was just too -- it was just too many. It was just one too many where you looked around and you think, how is it that this -- I

meet a girl that's been gang-raped by 15 men with pipes and pieces of wood and she's had fistulas and she's had to be sewn back together and she's a

child? And nobody's going to be held accountable?

And it just, again and again and again, meeting these people and these victims and just -- and the more I would learn about what had been done on

their behalf and who had been convicted. And I was just pitiful. There was nothing.

AMANPOUR: So let me ask you then, Foreign Secretary, 12 years ago, we covered the landmark case at the War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague, where

they deemed rape and mass rape in war, because of the Bosnia war, as a crime against humanity.

You've called this summit here historic.

But what will be different about this than what's already enshrined in law?

HAGUE: Well, several things, I hope. One is that we will have agreed this week, the international protocol on how to investigate and how to

document these crimes. Very often the reason that prosecutions don't succeed, even on an international basis, is that the lack of evidence or

the variable quality of evidence.

And so this is the first time the world will have adopted an agreed format for such investigations, where countries can also share information.

But in addition to that, there are countries that have been severely affected by this problem. Here this week, presenting their action plans,

how they've strengthened their laws, how they train their armies, how they encourage their prosecutors, the whole range of actions that they need to


So this, combined with the momentum that we're building up of the world talking about an issue it didn't want to talk about at all, and

that's an important part of this, I think is very different from 12 years ago. I hope it is.

AMANPOUR: Is this something you bring up in your bilateral meetings when you're meeting foreign ministers from the West or Africa or wherever

else around the world? Do you always talk about this?

HAGUE: It is the norm for me when -- wherever I am in the world, to be discussing this issue with other foreign ministers or prime ministers or

presidents and asking them for support, for survivors of sexual violence, to attend the summit, to sign our declaration, to change their domestic


AMANPOUR: Do they get uncomfortable? I mean, for instance, in the DRC, which is known as the rape capital of the world, they don't even

consider rape in war as a crime. It's just something that happens.

HAGUE: Well, I think at first what I've found -- two years ago, as you say, is some shock from other ministers, that this is one of the top

subjecting the British foreign secretary is raising when he visits a country. There's some surprise to begin with. Of course, they're used to

it now. And a country like the DRC is now sending ministers to this summit. They are producing plans. They are taking the subject seriously.

The president has discussed it with us. That's -- this in itself brings about change over an agonizingly long period, of course. But this in

itself, us going around talking about it, brings about change.

But we want to see real practical actions in many individual countries as well.

AMANPOUR: Angelina, when it comes to justice, what do you think has to happen to have justice and accountability?

JOLIE: Well, a large part of it in the center of what we're doing is to -- in order to end impunity we have to not just -- not just bring

awareness of the law, but also make sure that we have the ability to collect the evidence and we help people to understand how to, for example,

in Congo, working with doctors and local lawyers, to work together to be able to collect, preserve and be ready to present the evidence to start

having prosecutions, to start having people end up in jail.

And that's what's going to finally make the difference, because like in Nigeria, like in India, around the world, it's very obvious that these

men believe they will get away with this because they have. And they will continue to unless we really, really are able to enforce the law.

AMANPOUR: A British-based NGO called Freedom from Torture recently brought out a report; doctors collected all sorts of evidence in the DRC,

where state authorities, people who are part of the system, particularly in prisons, are mass and gang-raping women who are in prison. And this is a

punitive measure against politically active women.

HAGUE: This is why it's so important for governments to adopt comprehensive plans that includes their -- how their own personnel behave.

It includes how U.N. peacekeepers behave, because there have been instances where people actually sent to protect a civilian --


AMANPOUR: That's right. And that brings up a very important point. Our tax dollars, pounds, whatever, are paying for these U.N. peacekeepers.

And they're busy raping women.

HAGUE: And that is why it is so important that this includes changes in military doctrine and training.

I was in Colombia a few months ago, with the defense minister and they have launched changes in their military doctrine now, how they train so

many of their soldiers so that avoiding and preventing sexual violence in conflict is part of their training. We're training a new army in Mali

after all the difficulties there, with an E.U. training mission.

We've sent experts in sexual violence so we're training a new army there in Africa in these things.

And I do believe that if we change attitudes on sexual violence in conflict, that will change attitudes in every other setting as well. This

is also something that leads to changing attitudes towards domestic violence, towards state permitted violence of the sort that you are talking


AMANPOUR: You also spoke about it being transformative in everyday acts of casual sexism and casual violence that simply happen all over the

place. We're seeing it in Egypt right now; the new President al-Sisi yesterday has ordered an investigation because yet again a woman got gang-

raped or sexually assaulted violently in a crowd. And it's very common in Egypt.

But what struck me was the casual acceptance of this by the kids. They had interviewed a bunch of boys who said, oh, yes; they're asking for

it. Or, oh, if she was just covered in her veil. We wouldn't touch her.

How do you change society's attitudes?

JOLIE: Well, I think there's also, as we speak about empowering women, we need to empower men and boys. There are many great husbands and

leaders who love and support women and as we -- as a part of the education of young boys, they need to feel that they have a duty to protect their

sisters and their wives and their mothers and that -- and they see it as a strength and they see assaulting women as a -- as a weakness and something

that they would be ashamed to do, put the shame on them, not on the victims of rape, on the -- on these people that attack women.

So I think if we can help to inspire, encourage and raise the generation to understand and empower them, it will make a difference.

AMANPOUR: Even in your own country, the United States of America, there's a major effort underway by many female senators to try to get

justice for American women in all branches of the military, who've undergone tens of thousands of sexual assaults, rape and everything else.

And yet they cannot get the justice of a fair and independent adjudicator. It's still within the chain of command and the military says, no, that's

the way we do it.

JOLIE: Yes. I think that's going to be an extension of my work on this -- on this issue, to deal with that and to work with. I have -- I

have spent a lot of time speaking to soldiers and people on this particular issue and have actually been going to work on a project relating to this.

And I believe it's over 85 percent, maybe 90 percent of women who are there have all been sexually assaulted who are soldiers. And it's -- and there

is, again, the same situation where they've gotten away with this. So many people continue to get away with it, and especially people in the military.

Especially people who are -- whose lives are to protect others, when they violate the law. It is -- it is 1,000 times worse. It is -- it is not --

it is not only a crime, it's a bar across the world that you can do this.


AMANPOUR: And more of our conversation after a break. But first, giving voice to the victims. They're more than just statistics; they are

flesh and blood and each one has her own horrible story, like Marasi (ph), a woman from the DRC, still living a nightmare that won't go away.


MARASI, DRC (through translator): They raped me. They were two, and they had guns. Now I have problems taking care of the children and seeing

how they can grow up. I don't know how I'm going to take care of my children. Imagine how they will grow like this. Since that day, I have

not walked alone. I only walk with my friends because I'm scared.


AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program as we continue our conversation on preventing rape being used as a weapon of war.

I asked movie star and U.N. envoy Angelina Jolie and the British Foreign Secretary William Hague about changing attitudes on the battlefield

and in everyday life. We talk about family, career roles and the big international stories of the day, the chaos in Iraq and the mounting

violent blowback from Syria's deadly civil war.


AMANPOUR: Let me ask you some more of the everyday issues.

What do you tell your own children? You have daughters and you have sons.

What do you tell them about gender equality, justice?

JOLIE: I'm very, very open with my children and some of my children have come from countries that were in conflict with each other, a son who's

Cambodian, a son who's Vietnamese. So we have -- we have lots of discussions of -- in the house.

My daughter's African and we talk about civil rights and we -- and they look at their sister and think of that many years ago, how different

their relationship to their sister would be.

So we speak about all these things. And when I go into the field, I explain to them where I'm going and why so they understand that I love

them, but why it's important for me to leave and why they should be happy I'm going.

So I hope to, as we travel, connect them to the world from what they see and I hope to balance --


AMANPOUR: Do you choose your roles carefully in terms of how it depicts women and women heroes --


JOLIE: In film?

AMANPOUR: -- victims?

JOLIE: I have -- I've always wanted to play women that -- certainly that I had a feeling for, that I admired in some way, even if it was fun,

but I thought had -- certainly not a negative, wasn't sending a negative message. And I have been very fortunate that I've been allowed to play

these roles that have moved some things forward. I can show my daughters when my daughters saw they're interested, you know, what can women do, and

I can -- I can show them examples of things that I'm very happy to have been a part of that --


JOLIE: -- well, even my little girl, showing her "Tomb Raider," when I showed my little girl, you know, she's seeing "Spider-Man" and how -- and

had all these examples of boy things. You can show her that, you know, I didn't have when I was growing up. There was James Bond; there was --

there was, you know --


AMANPOUR: There was no Janet Bond.

JOLIE: -- there was all these wonderful things. But it's really, really fun that there's been a lot of -- in film, there's been a lot of

strong women and not strong women that are anti-men, strong women who love men and are strong women.

AMANPOUR: Foreign Secretary, can I ask you a couple of news of the day questions --

HAGUE: Of course.

AMANPOUR: -- as we wrap up. Iraq is in a really bad state. They've practically declared a state of emergency from Mosel and elsewhere because

ISIS has taken over. They implanted its flag.

HAGUE: Actually, we're very concerned about that. It is a very dangerous situation and, indeed, it illustrates the dangers in the entire

region of the impact of the Syria conflict on neighboring states, including on Iraq. So it underlines the importance of renewed efforts over the

coming months to bring about a political solution in Syria.

But in Iraq, of course, it is also vital. There is some political progress that helps the Iraqi government to respond effectively to this.

There's just been a general election in Iraq that was well conducted actually. And now it's important that the new government is formed as

rapidly as possible with real political unity in the country on how to tackle these extremist threats.

And so we will strongly encourage the Iraqi leaders to do that.

AMANPOUR: You obviously mention Syria, a huge amount of information about blowback and backlash from ISIS, from other terrorist groups there,

threatening Britain, France and perhaps even the United States and elsewhere.

HAGUE: It is not only a catastrophe for the people of Syria, but it is a national security threat to many other countries, as you have said.

We have seen perhaps 400 or more British people with links to Britain one way or another, travel to Syria, some of them have returned. This is a

growing and serious national security threat to Western countries.

And we're responding to that by increasing our cooperation with countries in the region and with each other, tracking who is going where.

And we won't hesitate to use our own powers to withdraw passports and to remove leave to remain in this country for those who go to Syria for these

purposes, who are residents in the U.K.

So we are working hard on this and we'll have to work still harder, given the scale of this threat.

AMANPOUR: Ukraine: the new president, Petro Poroshenko and President Putin met briefly on the sidelines at D-Day.

Has anything solid come out of that as far as you're concerned?

Do you see Vladimir Putin complying with Western demands to stop the flow of fighters and weapons into Eastern Ukraine?

HAGUE: Well, there are some good signs from the meeting. I think certainly a few steps forward have been taken between Ukraine and Russia.

And clearly Russia are dealing with Mr. Poroshenko. We would like to see Russia be unequivocal that this was a legitimate process, that he is the

legitimate president of Ukraine.

But they are de facto dealing with him, meeting him. I think he has had a good start and what he said at his inauguration, which was firm but

moderate in tone and that has helped to open the way for further discussions with Russia.

So we do look to Russia now to seize support for armed and illegal groups in Eastern Ukraine, to stop arms and other supplies coming across

the border and to work with Ukraine. Since the Ukrainians are ready to decentralize power within their country, to protect the Russian language,

to do the sorts of things that Russia has expressed concern about in the past.

So I think there is now a way forward in the Ukraine crisis and it's very important that both the countries most affected take that way forward.

AMANPOUR: And finally, is it time for a woman to run?

Do you want Hillary Clinton to run for president?

JOLIE: I -- of course it would be wonderful to see her run. I think whoever's president should be the best person for the job regardless.

AMANPOUR: So you don't think that it's time to have a female President of the United States?

JOLIE: I think it's -- I think it's certainly time. But I don't think that's a reason to vote for somebody either. So I will -- but I, of

course, would love to see it at some point. And it is coming at some point. It will happen and it's -- and you can feel it. And that's going

to be a wonderful thing.

AMANPOUR: Angelina Jolie, Foreign Secretary William Hague, thank you very much for joining me.

HAGUE: Thank you.

JOLIE: Thank you.


AMANPOUR: And meantime some of those deep wounds we've been talking about just never heal, even two decades later. CNN went back to Rwanda

this April on the 20th anniversary of that bloody civil war. The U.N. says 100,000 to 250,000 women were raped there during the genocide.

And CNN spoke to a woman who was a teenager then but still scarred to this day.


MARIJINE (through translator): Whenever it's nearing every year, my heart starts changing, not feeling very well. I never knew who the father

of my child is because whoever would get me would never go without raping me.

There are some in Kigali and Ramagana who very well knew that they were HIV positive. And they deliberately raped people to infect them.

I forgive them because I'm asked by the government to forgive. But the pain is still there.



AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, as William Hague and Angelina Jolie have made painfully clear, rape has become a weapon of mass destruction, as

lethal as chemical warfare.

Now imagine a world where a local doctor is putting those battered bodies and broken lives back together. Here at the London summit, we met

Dr. Dennis Mukwege, a gynecologist who with his colleagues has treated more than 30,000 rape victims at his hospital in the DRC.

This is his challenge to the world community.


DR. DENNIS MUKWEGE, FOUNDER AND MEDICAL DIRECTOR, PANZI HOSPITAL (through translator): To see these atrocities is something which dismays

you. You have a feeling that you do not understand anything. You are completely perplexed by what you are seeing. But afterwards, you have to

react and the reaction is to try to regive life, regive the dignity that has been lost and try to repair what has been damaged.

My personal joy is to be found in the strength of these women. It is their strength that makes me joyful, because if I feel that someone who has

been so brutally destroyed can restart a life and not only think of herself but also think of others, this is a capacity that impresses me and not only

gives me joy but also hope for our humanity.


AMANPOUR: A glimmer of hope in a world where the fight for and against women goes on.

And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always contact us at our website,, and follow me on Twitter and

Facebook. Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.