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Who Murdered Jeremiah Oliver, 5?

Aired April 21, 2014 - 19:00:00   ET


JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in a murder mystery that has stunned the entire nation. This precious 5-year-old boy, missing for seven long months, is finally found. Dead. The child was shoved into a duffle bag, just steps from a busy highway. I will talk to the little boy`s father in a primetime exclusive in just a moment. Who murdered little Jeremiah Oliver?

Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s consistent in height and weight with that of Jeremiah Oliver.


JOSE OLIVER, JEREMIAH`S FATHER: How can somebody hurt this little boy?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The little boy`s body was wrapped in a blanket, concealed in a duffle bag. And it appears to be a homicide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My heart is very heavy.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This adorable little boy was last seen way back in September of last year, but it wasn`t until three months later that he was even reported missing. Cops say his brave 7-year-old sister told her school counselors that her mom`s boyfriend was abusing her and that she hadn`t seen her own little brother, Jeremiah, in months.

Police then arrested Jeremiah`s mother and her boyfriend, and they`ve been sitting behind bars ever since, charged with kidnapping and child abuse. But they reportedly refused to help police in the search for their missing child. This mother`s missing child. Why? What did they know?

Reports claim cops were tipped off to the location of the boy`s body by a jail inmate who claims he was given information by the boyfriend.

Did Jeremiah`s mother and boyfriend murder this 5-year-old, or did they hand them off to somebody else who ended up killing the child?

Jeremiah`s body found only 40 feet from a major highway, and the little boy`s biological father is devastated.


OLIVER: How can somebody hurt this little boy? And just -- and just throw him in the highway? Like -- like he`s garbage. How can you have the heart to do that?


VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you think happened to this precious child with that beautiful smile? I shudder to think. Call me, 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.

We have a fantastic Lion`s Den debate panel ready to thrash it out. But first, straight out to my primetime exclusive guest, Jeremiah`s father, Jose Oliver.

Jose, thank you so much for joining us. And my heart goes out to you. I`m so sorry for your loss. I know you`re in very deep pain. But we want to get to the bottom of this, so that you can get justice. What`s your theory about how your precious son was murdered, and how his little body ended up near the highway, seven months after he disappeared?

OLIVER (via phone): (HEAVY SIGH)


OLIVER: Yes, I`m here. I can`t -- I can`t tell you how that feels. I can`t explain the pain and the sadness and the anger that I have inside. For this individual, Alberto Sierra, and my wife, Elsa Oliver.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, first of all, I know this is difficult, and I understand that you`re crying. And my deepest condolences. I want to say that. Your son looked like a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful boy with a great smile and a future ahead of him. And I`m so sorry he will not have that future, and you won`t be able to see that future.

But again, we want to get to what really happened, because your little boy deserves justice. Now, you were married. You -- I think are technically still married to his mother? Is that correct?

OLIVER: Yes, I am. I`m still married to her, yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Have you seen evidence of violence? And there`s the mother right there in court. Did you ever, with your own eyes, see evidence that she was violent with your children? You have three of them, all told?

OLIVER: No, ma`am. I did not. No.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So do you feel it was the influence of the boyfriend, or what? Because your wife is charged with kidnapping, assault and battery with a dangerous weapon and reckless endangerment. And here`s the boyfriend.

OLIVER: As I heard by her roommate, before she met Alberto Sierra, she was doing good. She was in college. She was studying medical assisting.

If you see some -- some of her pictures on Facebook, you can see that my three kids are all together. You can see that they`re all happy, in that picture, in those pictures that she took in the park. I believe that after she met Alberto Sierra, it was like everything went downhill from there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And do you blame that individual, the boyfriend? Alberto Sierra?

OLIVER: I blame DCF. I blame Alberto Sierra. I blame my wife.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think -- OK, they`ve been behind bars since December. When your courageous 7-year-old daughter said, "Hey, I`m being abused, and I haven`t seen my little brother in months," they arrested these two. They`ve been behind bars ever since, since December. But your son`s body turns up, not that far from a major freeway just last Friday.

Do you think the body was put there recently? Because if they are responsible -- if -- they were behind bars since December. So they couldn`t have done it between December and now.

OLIVER: Personally -- personally, I don`t -- I don`t believe that the body -- that my son`s body was there for six months, seven months. I believe that they -- that it was put there a couple of days ago. I believe that suitcase or that duffle bag was sitting there, or it was buried there, there would have been some damage to the bag. From all the snow, from all the rain. And I didn`t see that in the picture. About the duffle bag being damaged by water or by snow.

So I believe that there was other people involved. I believe Alberto Sierra, his brother was involved. I believe Alberto`s family knew about it. Alberto`s girlfriend, Alberto`s friends.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we have to stop for one second, because we do not want to imply that -- that anyone is a suspect in this disappearance/death/murder at this point. We have to let justice take its course and what your personal beliefs are is one thing, but we have no independent confirmation of any involvement by the individuals you refer to.

Let me stop you for one second, Jose, while we take a look at the time line of this case and bring in an expert, the nation`s premier expert on missing children.

May 2013 was the last time DCF, Department of Children and Families, had a face-to-face interrogation and interaction with this child. The next month, a social worker was told Jeremiah has moved to Florida with his grandma. Nobody checks out that story, which is apparently a big lie.

September, the last time Jeremiah is seen alive. Then two months later, DCF finally visits. They never even bother to set their eyes on the little boy. They leave a card at the door or something.

The case breaks open in December, when Jeremiah`s sister tells a counselor the mom`s boyfriend abused her, and she hasn`t seen her little brother in months.

And later that month the mom and the boyfriend are arrested and charged with numerous counts in connection with this child`s disappears. And then, just this past Friday the child`s body is found 40 feet away from a highway, only 13 miles away from his house.

So straight out to the Lion`s Den. We begin with Marc Klaas, founder of Klaas Kids. What do you make of that timeline?

MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER, KLAAS KIDS: Well, if I may digress for just a moment, Jose, I`d like to speak to you personally, father to father.

More than 20 years ago, my daughter, too, was disposed of, just off of a freeway on ramp. And it was absolutely the most devastating thing that`s ever happened to me in my life.

But I`ve done a couple of things since then. I`ve vowed that my daughter`s life would not -- or death would not be in vain. And I have done things to give meaning to her life. And I try to get up every morning and look forward and not look backward. And that`s best accomplished with the assistance of your family, your faith. If you`re getting any kind of counseling, continue with that. And you should be able to see some light at the end of the tunnel at some point.

Now, as far as this timeline goes, here`s what I do know, Jane. I know that if that if that -- I know that the medical examiner is going to be able to determine whether or not the little boy`s body in the duffle bag has been at that location for the long-term, or if it was just put there a few days ago, as Jose suggests.

The way they`re able to do that is through the leakage of decomposition fluids. It would have leaked through -- the fluids would have leaked through, first the blanket and then the duffle bag, and left a stain on the ground under the bag that would be similar and would look similar to a burn mark. So you should be able to get an answer, a definitive answer, from the medical examiner once they`re done with their - - that part of the investigation.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to go back to Jose, and I hope that Marc Klaas`s words are some comfort in that he has gone through something equally horrific, and there are some similarities. But Jose, you have two other children, correct?

OLIVER: That is correct.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they`re in foster care right now. Why are they in foster care?

OLIVER: I can`t comment on that. I don`t know why they`re in foster care.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they`re your kids, so I`m just...

OLIVER: I believe because the case is -- because the case is in Massachusetts, and I`m from Connecticut. So they have to stay down here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you would be -- you would be willing to take those children and raise them?

OLIVER: Yes, I would. Yes, I would.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, so you`re fighting to raise them. OK. Because that was a question a lot of our viewers had.

OLIVER: Yes, I am. Yes, I am fighting.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And the reason that you were you not able to check up on your son was that your wife got a restraining order against you to prevent you from getting anywhere near her. So was that what prevented you from checking up on your son?

OLIVER: That`s part of it. But like -- I was working -- I was working my first job. And when I got home, she wasn`t there. She had left.

So I tried to contact her on the phone that day. She never answered my phone calls. I tried to contact her on Facebook. She never answered me on Facebook. I didn`t know where she was. I didn`t know where she went.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So she, in essence, took your child and just disappeared with your children?

OLIVER: That is correct.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Stay right there. Hold on. We`re just getting started. We`ve got a whole team of experts, former prosecutor from "Staten Island Law," the star of that show, to weigh in on this horror. We`ll be right back in a moment.


OLIVER: How can somebody hurt this little boy? Now the question is who did it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jeremiah wasn`t reported missing until December, three months after he disappeared.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They know it`s a case that we have a ton of concern on. And, you know, it appears to be a homicide. So they`re going to do everything they can. Sometime today, tomorrow, I would anticipate that the autopsy will be completed.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: The other outrage in this case is that Department of Children and Families really, really screwed up. OK, they abrogated their responsibility. They were supposed to visit this child regularly, and they failed to do so for months on end. They failed to visit the child from the spring of last year all the way through November. And when they did show up in November, they never even went inside to see where the child was.

So now several people, including the social worker who failed to show up and her supervisors have been fired and/or disciplined. But this is an outrage. Elura Manos, former prosecutor, star of "Staten Island Law."

ELURA MANOS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I agree, Jane. This is totally an outrage. Something is seriously wrong here. The time line is just ridiculous. The social worker didn`t go to the house, didn`t follow up.

And when the agency got information that the family moved, it sounds like they did absolutely nothing to even check the veracity of that story.

This is a failure both on the part of the community, on the part of Child Protective Services, on the part of every person involved with this child, including, by the way, family members who did nothing to check up on this kid.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Areva Martin, attorney, these families lie. I think we all know that. We know that families who are in trouble enough that they have got DCF repeatedly, their eye on them, that they`ve got problems. And therefore, you cannot accept anything they say at face value.

They said the boy was taken to Florida with his grandma. Check it! But they didn`t, Areva.

AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY: They didn`t do anything, Jane. And as a result, we have this dead little boy.

If there`s any good thing about this case, it`s that the DFS, the Department of Children Services in Massachusetts is now going through a thorough, thorough investigation. The governor of that state has stepped in. And hopefully -- hopefully the system will be changed. The processes that are being utilized now will be changed, and no other kid will have to go through what this little boy went through. And none of our kids will slip through the cracks the way little Jeremiah did.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but those are -- look, I appreciate your comments. But they`re speeches. What we need is a top-to-bottom overhaul of every single Department of Children and Families.

MARTIN: Sometimes it has to be a death. I agree with you 100 percent.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... America. And let me say this.

Diana Aizen, yes. And I think we`re all in agreement that this is an obscenity. But get this: a separate report from the state`s child advocate, blah, blah, blah, suggested that state social workers missed nearly one in five home visits during a recent 12-month period. One in five visits they`re missing. So this isn`t some horrible aberration where this never happens.

This kind of behavior, this kind of dropping the ball on behalf of Department of Children and Family Services is totally unacceptable. This little boy may still be alive if DCF did their job.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: John Harrell, you`re the northeast region communications director for the Department of -- Florida Department of Children and Families. But the situation is similar all over the country.

Here`s my suggestion. I am sick to my stomach of covering these horrific tragedies, whether it`s Relisha Rudd who vanished in D.C., and that was -- DCF there dropped the ball. This is an outrageous case of dropping the ball, month after month failing to visit. There needs to be a top to bottom overhaul. We need to bring these Department of Children and Families into the 21st century with technology.

I don`t care if you have to put an ankle bracelet on these parents. I don`t care if you have to put a camera inside every single room in the house. If we can track a package, a FedEx package, from New York to California, and know where it is every single second of the way, how can we lose kids?

JOHN HARRELL, NORTHEAST REGION COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, FLORIDA DEPARTMENT OF CHILDREN AND FAMILIES: Well, part of what you`re talking about there, Jane, would require some changes in legislation. To give child protective service agencies the authority to do these things.

Look, these visits should have been happening. You`re talking about months where this family was off the radar. There is a reason why when cases are open, you`ve got to see those children at least once every 30 days, see if there`s any signs of abuse or neglect, see if they`re thriving. This didn`t happen here.

And already you`ve got the Massachusetts DCF commissioner saying, look, it`s a serious failure. So it`s apparent that reforms are going to be coming there.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Marc Klaas, you know what I`m talking about. It`s the bureaucratees, yackety yackety yack. I mean, we have technology in this country that could solve this like that.

KLAAS: I could completely agree with you, Jane. I suspect that there are privacy concerns that would have to be deal [SIC] with -- be dealt with. But there`s absolutely no question that we`re dealing with broken systems all over the country. We hear about it from state to state to state.

I think in this particular instance, the fact they`re protecting the director of this agency is kind of outrageous, as well. She`s the one who oversees. This little boy is dead, but she`s not being held accountable at any level.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Heads should roll. And you know how you solve the privacy issues? You want all the benefits that come with the government? You sign a contract saying it`s OK to keep cameras in your house to survey you while you`re dealing with your children that you`ve had problems with. That you`ve been accused of abusing.

So you want to get the benefits and not end up in jail, sign this contract. And we`re going to monitor you, and then we`ll know what you`re doing 24/7, 365.

Coming up, a woman guilty of beating her husband to death. And you won`t believe what she used as her murder weapon. It`s a common household item. And you`re going to hear this convicted killer now hysterically plead for her life. So she doesn`t get the needle.


MARISSA DEVAULT, CONVICTED OF KILLING HUSBAND WITH HAMMER: I apologize for all the time that was lost. Sorry. Sorry.




DEVAULT: I apologize for all the time that was lost. Sorry. Sorry.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, a woman murdered her husband by slamming a hammer into his head 25 times! Imagine that. She`s now sobbing hysterically as she begs a jury not to sentence her to die by lethal injection.

Convicted killer Marissa Devault begged an Arizona jury for her life, openly sobbing, gesturing wildly, wiping her face with tissues. She said how sorry she is.


DEVAULT: I can`t do anything more than say I`m sorry. I can`t push him back, I can`t bring him back. I can`t fix everything that was wrong. I don`t even know where to go back to if I had a back button. But I truly regret what happened, and I wish I could fix it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: These very same jurors already found Marissa guilty of murder one and concluded it was an especially cruel crime. Ya think? Twenty-five times? These same people will now determine whether she`ll get life in prison or lethal injection.

Marissa claims she attacked her husband in self-defense after years of enduring physical abuse by him. There is the man who cannot speak for himself and tell his side of the story.

Prosecutors, however, say it was all premeditated, claiming Marissa wanted the life-insurance payout, so she could pay back a $300,000 debt she owed her secret lover. Yes, she was cheating on her husband.

During her allocution, Marissa had some bizarre emotional swings.


DEVAULT: I don`t even know where to start. I`ve always been willing and will accept full responsibility for my actions on the morning of January 14th. There are so many difficult and confusing emotions. I`m horrified that I (UNINTELLIGIBLE) untimely demise of Dale.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Straight out to the Lion`s Den. And we begin with forensic psychologist, Dr. Jeff Gardere. Do you believe Marissa`s tears, or is this the performance of a lifetime?

DR. JEFF GARDERE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I think it`s a combination of both. Here we have a woman who has been caught red-handed. Holy Jodi Arias. That`s all I have to say. Yes, maybe it was self-defense for the first ten seconds. But then the overkill with that claw hammer over and over and over again. And then you see all of these bizarre emotions. And even bizarre terms like "I have something for the ultimate demise." Honey, you`re the one who smashed his skull in.

So, yes, I`m not surprised that she`s having this crazy range of emotions.

MARTIN: Jane, can I say something?


MARTIN: You know, I`m not going to defend the murder of her husband. But I don`t think this is Jodi Arias. This woman suffered years and years of physical abuse.

MANOS: Absolutely.

MARTIN: Her kids were also abused. She witnessed the abuse of her kids. And that makes this case very different.

Again, you know, she should be held accountable for her crime. But life in prison, not the death penalty. There are only three women on the death penalty in Arizona and this is not that kind of case. This isn`t a serial murderer. This isn`t a woman that set out to do harm to her husband. This woman was abused, and we cannot ignore that fact.

MANOS: And abused her children, too.

MARTIN: Absolutely.

MANOS: In a culture of violence for a long time. And the appropriate sentence here, really, is life in prison.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are you kidding me? I mean, look. I have to say, I am not -- I`m a total nonviolent person. That`s why I`m a vegan. I`m not going to suggest that I`m in favor of any kind of killing. But you know, if this does exist, this penalty, what could be more justifiable than slamming somebody with a heavy-duty hammer in the head 25 times? Do you know how painful that is?

AIZMAN: Jane...

MANOS: The circumstances.

AIZMAN: Not consistent with somebody who committed cold-blooded murder. This is somebody who was so desperate and so tortured for so long, that she had a psychotic break or some sort of breakdown that led to this murder. This was not a precisely planned, well thought out crime. She grabbed a hammer and killed him while he was sleeping, because she just couldn`t take it anymore.


MARTIN: He climbed on top of her and appeared to be raping her, Jane. You have to take that into account. She woke up, and her husband was on top of her. So it may be sexual abuse, along with the physical abuse that has to be taken into consideration.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Elura, she wanted the life insurance payout. That`s not a psychotic break. That`s called being in debt to the tune of $300,000 to your secret boyfriend that you`re cheating on.

MANOS: Then poison him. I hear you on that. I do hear you on that, Jane. But let me tell you, that if being a victim of habitual domestic violence is not a mitigating factor, then really nothing is.

So we have to interpret the laws the way the laws are meant to be interpreted here. And this does seem like a pretty strong mitigating factor. It doesn`t alleviate the tears over what she did, but it does come and mitigate it to the extent that maybe life in prison is a more appropriate sentence here.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know what I think? This is the same courthouse where Jodi Arias was convicted but where the jury hung on whether to give her life or death, which is why she`s facing a retrial in September. I think it`s very possible it`s going to be another hung jury. Because all you need is one. One person to say, hey, I disagree with the other jurors.

Next, there`s been countless, countless "Real Housewives" brawls in the past. But now we`re going to show you on other side of the break one that ended with a 911 call and one of the "Real Housewives" being charged with battery. She got arrested. You`ve got to see it to believe it.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are we bringing props now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I will not do is have you talk over me, ok?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anyway, you do not have the right to talk.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait a minute, now --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, no, no. No, no, no, no, no.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good girls go to heaven and bad girls go everywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve just been assaulted.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A "Real Housewives of Atlanta" star has been arrested.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She violated her over and over and over again.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anyway, you do not have the right to talk.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, wait a minute now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just like that wild card.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She hit me in my head and was fighting me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you want to label me a villain, I`ll take it.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight new developments on the vicious fight that landed "Real Housewives of Atlanta" under arrest and facing a battery charge. This is no laughing matter. After throwing verbal jabs at each other, reality star Porsha Williams physically attacks Kenya Moore, drags her to the floor by the hair.

Here is the explosive clip from last night`s Bravo episode that has gone viral.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait, what did she say now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is saying that you cheated on Cordell (ph).


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, you are not going to keep talking about my character like you know what you`re talking about. You`re a slut from the 90s and you`re sitting up here --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re a dumb ho, shut up.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no. No, no, no. No, no, no, no.







UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait, wait, wait.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not doing this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look, look, look.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not doing this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s why I don`t want to be in that seat.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is the third highest trending story on Facebook today. After the women were ripped away from each other, executive producer Andy Cohen ordered Porsha to leave the taping. She`s now charged with battery which could land her in jail for a year.

Straight out to the Lion`s Den -- we`ll start with Kendra G, entertainment correspondent. Who is to blame? Did Kenya -- she called her a very nasty name with a bull horn. Did Porsha overreact or did this show put these women in the ring knowing exactly how to get them to explode?

KENDRA G, ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Jane, like I told you last week, I know both girls personally. I have a dear place in my heart for Kenya Moore. I love her dearly but if I was Porsha I probably would have whipped her behind two episodes ago.

I mean you can only antagonize a person so much before they actually snap. So I don`t blame Porsha and I don`t think Andy set this fight up. But he is apologizing. This fight could have never made the air if it was up to him. They could have edited it out, but he knew that we`ll be talking about that. So I kind of blame Porsha -- I blame Kenya and kind of Andy.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s ratings gold -- Alexis Tereszcuk. If you edited that out, you`d be editing out the thing that gets you the big ratings. And let`s show it again as we go through this. I mean come on. People don`t want to watch two people sitting around having polite conversation.

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE: they don`t. And I actually broke this story about a few weeks ago. So they`ve had weeks to build up to the anticipation. And then show the huge finale which was amazing.

This show is the highest-rated "Housewives" show on all of them. Of course they`re going to want the huge drama. And nothing is better than a physical fight. And Andy obviously is very concerned and was trying to stop it. I don`t actually blame him.

Kenya was the instigator, but she has been the instigator all along. As your last guest just said, she knows them both, she knows that Kenya has been pushing every button that poor Porsha has.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But I mean come on this is what the show is about. This is the money shot, as it were. And all of it is a buildup to this. Now, why did she lose it, and I think she did lose it for real. I don`t believe it was an act.

"Real Housewives of Atlanta" Porsha Williams claimed she went into a rage blackout. And when she came to, you can see, she immediately expresses embarrassment and remorse. Check out the aftermath.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am not going to sit here and get hit by somebody on TV. I`m done. She goes or I go. She`s crazy.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t look at me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen to me. Listen. Do not --

PORSHA WILLIAMS, REALITY STAR: I can`t believe I did that. I can`t believe I did that.


WILLIAMS: I`m embarrassed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Porsha. Porsha. It`s going to be all right. You can apologize.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just talked about this three days ago.

WILLIAMS: You`re right. You`re right. I`m sorry.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she`s actually picked up and carried out by a big burly man at the end of that drama. The woman on the floor is the one who attacked, not the attackee (ph). There she gets picked up and carried away as she suffers from her rage blackout and the aftermath.

You know, Jasmine Simpkins, entertainment reporter, come to find out this woman is the granddaughter of a famous civil rights leader named Josea Williams who was in Martin Luther King`s inner circle. Granddad must be turning in his grave right now.

JASMINE SIMPKINS, ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: I think granddad actually - - I mean I have to say, I am definitely team Porsha, Jane. I think granddad may be happy that his granddaughter stood up for herself. I liken it to a bully.


SIMPKINS: She has been bullied by Kenya all season. And I think that she finally just took a moment to say, "Listen, I`m going to stand up for myself, and show you that you cannot pick on me all season long." I think Kenya knew who she could take her, step to her and point it at. You never saw her do that -- you never saw her do that to Nene, you never saw her do that to Porsha or Candy. I think that she picked on Porsha long enough all season and she really had had enough.

I don`t necessarily say violence is what she should have done, but I think she had enough of this woman.

G: You know what -- I have to, you know what --

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Kendra.

G: Yes. Yes. You know what? I have to kind of agree with her. Because -- I mean like I said, Kenya is a friend. I really do love her. She gave me the chance to be on "Atlanta Housewives" this season, so I will always have a special place in my heart for Kenya Moore.

But she`s right. She was antagonizing Porsha, who I also know. And Porsha just snapped. But again, I rewound that fight like five times, Jane, last night, I mean it was so juicy. I`m not ashamed to admit it. I mean we`re talking about it right now. And like you said, it is the money shot.

People are saying that Porsha should no longer be on the show. Porsha deserves a raise. I`m sorry. Everyone in the world is talking about last night`s reunion episode. So before you do anything, you give Porsha a check and you also renew her contract.

Kenya -- I do love her, but don`t start none if you don`t want it to be none, honey. That`s just the reality of it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know it`s actually captivating --

SIMPKINS: Can I add to that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- go ahead.

SIMPKINS: I would like to add that I think they also should give a raise to the hairstylists, because both girls remained snatched through the whole fight. I`ve never seen a fight like this, and I`m from south central L.A. I`ve never seen a fight like this where not a weave hair was out of place. Kudos to whoever sewed in those weaves on both Porsha and Kenya`s hair.

G: That`s Kenya`s real hair.

SIMPKINS: Kenya`s hair is real. Kenya`s hair is real.

G: Yes, that`s Kenya`s real hair.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Hair aside -- hair aside, Elora Nanos, former prosecutor, you`re the star of Staten Island law, a slightly different kind of reality show, but a reality show, nonetheless. I mean conflict is what -- going back to Shakespeare and beyond -- conflict is what it`s all about.

ELORA NANOS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You`re right. You`re right, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: But now this conflict has become of a nature that how can these women scold their children for bullying on the playground or getting into fist fights when they`re doing that here?

NANOS: You`re right. And I have to tell you, we`ve gotten to a place with reality television that the people on the shows can`t even tell the difference between what`s real and what`s made up anymore. And that`s a real problem. The show that I was on was centered around two women that are friends and work together and don`t beat each other up.

And you know what, there is an audience for that, but there is a much bigger audience for people beating each other up and disparaging each other every chance that they get -- and not really the reason for all of this stuff. And it`s terrible.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Jeff Gardere, we need a man, a psychologist. And you`re both. What`s happening to our culture?

DR. JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, look. I`ve been on "Love and Hip-Hop Atlanta". I`ve been on "I Dream of Nene". So I`ve been in the middle of a lot of these fracases, if you will. And I think what it is, is the fact that, yes, it is real. It is a reality. But these are folks are on emotional steroids. As soon as you put that camera on them, the worst can come out.

So I think instead of celebrating this -- it`s real, it brings in the ratings -- we should look at how do we resolve these conflicts with these characters in the future.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: all right. Well, we`ve got more dramarama for you up next. Lindsay Lohan is going to give these ladies a run for her money. She has a shocking confession. And I don`t want to give it away right now. Just wait until what she said, until you hear what she said on her OWN docuseries about why she didn`t come out of her room for a while when the cameras were waiting on the other side. It`s shocking.






UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lindsay we love you.

LINDSAY LOHAN, ACTRESS: I did the best I could to, you know, balance jobs and showing up.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lindsay Lohan -- stunning, smart, talented and troubled.

LOHAN: I just wanted to say thank you, your honor, for being fair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really have to be very careful on who you end up hanging out with.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably not a good idea.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re no different than anyone else. Don`t push your luck.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lindsay Lohan reveals her biggest shocker yet. She claims she had a miscarriage while filming her reality show for Oprah`s OWN network. But the big question tonight, is she telling the truth?

The reality show was all about Lindsay`s battle with addiction after her sixth stint in rehab. But she hasn`t been on very good behavior. She skipped and stalled production. Even reportedly screened Oprah`s phone calls and missed a couple weeks of filming.

On last night`s season finale of "Lindsay" on OWN, she dropped this unbelievable explanation for why she was MIA.


LOHAN: No one knows this. And we can finish after this. I had a miscarriage for those two weeks that I took off. That`s why on the show it says she doesn`t want to come down, she doesn`t want to come down -- I couldn`t move. I was sick and watching this series. I just know how I felt at that moment. Like, oh, my god. This is -- this is really sad. Like who is helping her.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: entertainment editor, RadarOnline, Alexis Tereszcuk, Lindsay did not reveal who the father was or any details about the pregnancy that resulted in miscarriage. But, you know, if it`s true, my heart goes out to her. But she`s got a credibility problem.

TERESZCUK: She does have a credibility problem. And we actually spoke to multiple sources that told us this is not true. It`s another one of Lindsay`s lies, and that she was trying to cover up why she wasn`t working those two weeks.

It seems to be a pattern with Lindsay. This is a heartbreaking lie. There are so many people that obviously deal with this issue that is very personal to them. But our sources are saying she is not telling the truth about this at all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean, Dr. Jeff Gardere, forensic psychologist, what would -- there`s a lot of excuses, and this woman is brilliant at excuses. Remember, I`ve been working when she is talking to the judge, has got "FU" on her fingernails. I have been working. She knows how to sell an excuse. But why choose this one?

GARDERE: Well, because this is the one that tugs at all of our heart strings. To lose a child is one of the worst things that can happen in one`s life. I certainly hope that she`s not lying about this. I`ll give her the benefit of the doubt also. But I think the OWN people actually know what is going on. They would have known whether she was experiencing some sort of miscarriage by having a doctor onset if she were that ill. I just pray she`s not lying about this.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kendra G, what do you think? True or -- dare? Dare to say lie?

G: Well, Jane. You know, I don`t know if it`s true or not. But why do people get surprised when Lindsay Lohan acts like a crackhead? I mean crackheads don`t show up for work all the time. We know she has a drinking problem. We know -- we pretty much can confirm she has a drug problem. So these are the things that people that are on drugs do. They lie. They don`t show up for work.

So, why are we even surprised? I mean I kind of like Lindsay Lohan back in the day but to me she wasn`t that big of an actress, you know, to be honest.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well look, everybody knows who Lindsay Lohan is probably around the globe. So just in name recognition only she`s a huge star. Jasmine Simpkins, I don`t like to knock people for having an addiction because I`m a recovering alcoholic with 19 years of sobriety. But I`ll tell you one thing I can tell you exactly what my sobriety date is and how I turned 19 on April 1st. And anybody who is sober loves to talk about their sobriety date. And you never get that clear-cut answer out of her.

SIMPKINS: Because she`s not sober, Jane. And I think this is one of her drunken outbursts saying that she had a miscarriage. Sorry, Lindsay. In the words of Jay-Z, we don`t believe you, you need more people.

I just don`t believe that this girl had a miscarriage and I just can`t believe she would even make up such a lie. It`s really sad and I`m sure Oprah is going to give her the boot. And we won`t see this show back at all.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes, we don`t know if we`re going to have another season. That was the season finale yesterday. So, was that miscarriage story enough to give her a bump, so to speak, so that she could have another season? We`re going to debate that on the other side.



LOHAN: That was actually my fifth step in AA with Betty Ford. Someone when I was moving during the OWN show must have taken a photo of it. So that`s a really personal thing. And it`s really unfortunate. That that -- because it just -- it`s -- I talk about this on the last episode of the show.


LOHAN: to be continued.


VELEZ-MITCHELL: that was Bravo`s "Watch What Happens" Lindsay Lohan talking about her now infamous list of men she says she slept with -- 36 men in all. Alexis Tereszcuk, RadarOnline, given that list, and it includes some of the biggest names in Hollywood that we`re not going to repeat here, maybe it is possible she had a miscarriage. 36 men, 27 years old.

TERESZCUK: Well I`m not going to judge Lindsay`s sex numbers, but a lot of those men have come out -- a few of those men have come out and said that that is not true and she was not telling the truth on that list. So she can`t even tell the truth about who she`s allegedly having sex with. She probably can`t tell the truth about whether or not she has a decent excuse for missing work, the excuse being she had a miscarriage this time.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, once again, we wish Lindsay Lohan the best. Get sober. Stay sober. Work your program. It will be ok, Lindsay.

Nancy`s next.