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Conrad Murray: Ruling in Lawsuit Proves He`s Not Guilty; Miley Cyrus Claims Twerkfest was `Strategic Hot Mess`; Lamar Odom`s Self-Healing Rehab; TV`s Top Crime Dramas of All Time

Aired October 3, 2013 - 23:00:00   ET


A.J. HAMMER, HOST: Tonight on the countdown, it`s the top three stories that have us asking "Are They Delusional?"

Dr. Conrad Murray`s wild Michael Jackson confessions after a jury gives concert promoters a big pass on M.J.`s death.


DR. CONRAD MURRAY, FOUND GUILTY OF CAUSING MICHAEL JACKSON`S DEATH (via phone): I cried because for once, the world was allowed to hear some of the facts as it pertained to this matter. A lot of facts that had been suppressed.


HAMMER: Miley`s brand-new bizarre confessions about her controversial VMA performance. Did Miley Cyrus really just call her twerkfest a strategic hot mess?

Who is the most delusional?

Plus, we`re about to name the top ten TV crime shows of all time.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the bag and get down.




HAMMER: "Law & Order," "CSI," "The Sopranos," "Breaking Bad." Which show will we name the best TV crime show ever, and will you agree?

Hello. I`m A.J. Hammer. Thank you so much for watching.

And you know how some people say and do things that just seem so out of touch with reality? Well, we had so many of those moments today that, in tonight`s countdown, we had to count down the top three stories that made us ask "Are They Delusional?"

Kicking it all off at No. 3, Dr. Conrad Murray, who of course, is in prison for killing Michael Jackson. Because right after a jury just ruled against Jackson`s family and decided that the concert promoters were not all so responsible for his death, Conrad Murray claimed it proves he had nothing to do with Michael Jackson dying.

Listen to what he said about that this morning on "The Today Show."


MURRAY: I cried because, for once, the world was allowed to hear some of the facts as it pertained to this matter. A lot of facts that had been suppressed and which I was denied and my attorneys could not present during my criminal trial. That I was not given a fair chance to defend myself.


HAMMER: So, is Conrad Murray delusional? I figure who better to ask than the man who was the foreman of the jury that just found the concert promoters not liable?

Gregg Barden is right here with us tonight from Los Angeles.

So good to have you here, Gregg, after your long service for that jury.

So let me get right into it. When you decided to clear concert promoters AEG Live of negligence for hiring Dr. Murray, you and your fellow jurors had to declare that Murray was not unfit or incompetent. But is he just delusional to think that that also somehow cleared his name?

GREGG BARDEN, FOREMAN ON JURY IN AEG LIVE LAWSUIT: I think so. We didn`t say that he was just unfit or incompetent. We said he was fit and competent for the job in which he was hired to do. And he was hired to be a general practitioner. And he went well beyond the scope of that when he decided to administer Propofol for Mr. Jackson. He was not hired for that purpose.

HAMMER: So help us understand exactly how you and the jury came to that decision. Because obviously, it was a lot to figure out.

BARDEN: Yes. You know, we were given a series of questions. We weren`t just thrown into a room and said come out and tell us if AEG is liable or if they`re not. I believe, had that been the case, we might have been there another -- another two years discussing it.

But we were given a series of five questions. And each question, if we answered yes, we had to move on to the next one. And question No. 2, of course, it read, was Dr. Conrad Murray unfit or incompetent to perform the work for which he was hired?

I think where a lot of the confusion comes in, a lot of people just read it "Was Dr. Conrad Murray unfit or incompetent?" And they stop right there. If you stop right there, I believe the answer probably would have been yes. He was unfit and incompetent. But it was the wording of the question, which said "for which he was hired."

HAMMER: Right.

BARDEN: And again, he was hired to be a general practitioner.

HAMMER: And then what happened was really between him and Michael Jackson.

I want to bring in tonight, who`s joining us from San Francisco, Thomas Mesereau, who was once Michael Jackson`s attorney, also a good friend.

It`s good to see you, Tom. When you hear what Dr. Conrad Murray is saying, that this somehow clears him, do you think he`s being delusional?

THOMAS MESEREAU, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FORMER ATTORNEY: At best he`s being delusional. I think Conrad Murray tries to fool the world and, in the process, tries to fool himself.

Conrad Murray never seems to accept responsibility for anything he`s done. He always tries to blame Michael Jackson or someone else. To call him delusional is probably to be kind to him. I`d call him something a lot worse.

HAMMER: Well, here`s something else that Conrad Murray said this morning on "The Today Show" that could back you up there, Tom.

He said, Gregg, that you and the jurors didn`t believe he was unethical. I want to watch that with you.


MURRAY: I don`t think that that was ever said, that I was unethical. I think what the jurors said is that, if ethics were the issue, conclusions may be different. And this is not about ethics. This was about the Jacksons bringing a lawsuit, which I felt from the beginning was frivolous.


HAMMER: Yes, well, a lot of people did, but Gregg, I don`t think that actually represents what you said outside of the court or just alluded to a moment ago right here. In fact, you said outside the court, had ethics been in the questions you had to answer, the outcome might have been different. Explain that to me.

BARDEN: Had they used the word "unethical" in the question, I believe we would have said, you know, yes, he was unethical. All of us in the jury room, all 12 of us definitely believe he was unethical. Make no mistake about that. We did not say he was unethical. I`m sorry, we did say he was unethical.

We had to answer the question, and it was incompetent or unfit for the job which he was hired to perform. And again, he was hired to be a general practitioner, which meant, you know, treating colds, flu, minor cough, something to that effect. He was not hired to administer Propofol. Had he been hired to administer Propofol, then he would have definitely been incompetent, because it takes an anesthesiologist to do that.

So he`s definitely mistaken. He was definitely unethical, in our mind. And like I said, had the "unethical" word been used in the question, I think we would have seen it the other way around.

HAMMER: Gregg, were you surprised, given the context of the entire case, that the word "ethical" was not offered in there?

BARDEN: I was. I was very surprised because the word "unethical" was used an awful lot during the trial. However, I found out, of course, after the trial, talking to the attorneys, the attorneys tried to get the word in there, but one of the attorneys, Deborah Chang, told me that the law just wouldn`t allow them to do that.

HAMMER: Tom, what do you think? Was that a big miss? Should the jury have, in fact, been asked if Dr. Murray was incompetent for administering the Propofol, even though that obviously fell outside of what he was being hired for by AEG?

MESEREAU: Well, again, I wasn`t in the courtroom. I was on the plaintiff`s witness list and not called. I was going to -- supposed to be called if the defense tried to make a big issue out of Michael being charged with molestation, because Michael was acquitted, and I was his lead criminal defense counsel in that trial.

I think that the issue really was, was Conrad Murray hired to handle Michael Jackson`s prescription addiction? And my understanding was that evidence came in that a -- one of the executives for AEG, who had been a tour manager for Michael Jackson in the `90s, was well aware that Michael had a problem with prescription drugs following the Pepsi commercial where his scalp was burned.

And my understanding was that this man knew that an addiction specialist had been hired at that time. And I believe the plaintiffs were arguing that AEG, because of this prior knowledge and involvement, should have known that the doctor that Michael needed had to deal with this particular problem, and Conrad Murray was not a specialist in this area. That`s my understanding.

HAMMER: And of course, a lot of people certainly felt that, had Dr. Conrad Murray not been the one to help Michael out, Michael would have found somebody else who would have helped him out. In fact, one of jury member, Kevin Smith, said that the concert promoters, AEG Live, were basically on the outside looking in and watching this all play out. Let`s watch that.


KEVIN SMITH, JURY MEMBER, AEG LIVE LAWSUIT: If AEG had known what -- what was going on behind closed doors, it probably would have made a world of difference. But they didn`t.

Michael Jackson was used to getting his own way. He was a big star. He had all these doctors who wanted to be his doctor. And he could pretty much get what he wanted. And if anybody said no, well, they were out of mix. And he`d find somebody else.


HAMMER: Yes, I mean, that`s something that we`ve heard about Michael Jackson for years and years. So Gregg, what do you think? Having sat there for 21 weeks, having heard all of the stories about Michael and his behavior, do you believe that, too, that had it not been Dr. Murray, Michael certainly would have found somebody else to help him out?

BARDEN: I`m not sure about that. That`s not something we were really allowed to consider in the question, because that would be speculation on our part. So we didn`t really consider that.

But it may have been the feelings of individual jurors. But it`s not something that we talked about in the jury room as to whether it would have happened or not anyway. That wasn`t something that we were really charged with deciding.

HAMMER: OK. Dr. Murray also said today, by the way, that when he`s released from jail, he`s going to try to practice medicine again. Now Tom, I hear that and I think he`s being completely delusional to think that patients would want to go anywhere near him. I know I wouldn`t.

MESEREAU: Well, there are doctors who have lost their license for periods of time and then got reinstated. They got reinstated because medical boards decided that they had rehabilitated, that they had changed their ways, that they understood their wrongdoing.

This guy has never admitted that he did anything wrong, never taken responsibility for anything he did to Michael. And I don`t see this guy getting a license any time soon in any state in the United States. He may go abroad and be allowed to practice, but I can`t see him doing it here any time soon.

HAMMER: Yes. That would be a tough climb uphill. All right.

So who will be No. 1 on our countdown? I know a lot of people think maybe it should be Miley Cyrus tonight.


MILEY CYRUS, SINGER: You can watch that performance at the VMAs, and people could think it was just, like, a hot mess. But it`s so -- it`s a strategic hot mess.


HAMMER: Miley`s making new claims in an MTV documentary.

Miley, here`s a little news flash for you. I don`t think there`s any such thing as a strategic hot mess. Will Miley Cyrus`s bizarre plan for pop domination land her in our No. 1 spot on the countdown tonight?

And tonight, we are daring to name the top ten crime shows of all time.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the bag and get down.




HAMMER: How can you not love "CSI," right? But do we love the cops more than the criminals? Because, you know, "The Sopranos" and "Breaking Bad" are on our list. We reveal the best crime shows ever. Will you agree?

This is SBT on HLN.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Has everyone talking.

HAMMER (voice-over): A foam finger. That is not sitting well with the guy who invented the foam finger. He says Miley is degrading his creation.


HAMMER: Well, how do you know? That was me on the MTV documentary "Miley, The Movement." That was last night, and what we heard Miley say has us asking on tonight`s countdown, "Is she delusional?"

Miley Cyrus is coming in at No. 2 on our countdown of the top three stories today that made us ask "Are They Delusional?" And here`s the proof. Miley is saying she just wanted to bring fun onto the stage when she twerked with Robin Thicke at the VMAs. Look at this.


CYRUS: It was really important for me to bring that fun and that, like, that energy onto the stage. You can watch that performance from the VMAs and people could think it was just, like, a hot mess. But it`s so -- it`s a strategic hot mess.

Right now I`m at a point in my career where I can just be exactly who I want to be.


HAMMER: Yes. There you have it. No ordinary hot mess. A strategic hot mess. Now it makes sense.

TV and radio host Michael Billy is with us tonight in New York.

Michael, clear this up for me. Is there any such thing as a strategic hot mess, or is perhaps Miley just delusional?

MICHAEL BILLY, TV/RADIO HOST: Well, "strategic hot mess," of course, is a very professional term that we all use. Of course not.

You know, she`s still young in this business. At that age -- not to sound like an old fuddy-duddy, but she doesn`t know who she is yet. And, you know, there is something to be said for a certain realization of Miley, when you get older you`ll realize that this business is not as nice and sweet as it may come off.

I do think she`s being a bit taken advantage of. I do think she`s making the wrong decisions in her career.

HAMMER: Well, I think we`re now going to see her listing her name as Miley Cyrus SHM, strategic hot mess.

BILLY: Hash tag.

HAMMER: Wait. Not surprisingly, there is more. Miley says that what she`s going through right now, it`s not a transition from her Hannah Montana days. Oh, no, it`s a movement. Watch.


CYRUS: To me when I`m saying a movement like that`s the only way that I know how to describe what I`m doing. Because it`s not a transition. Like, people always want to call it a transition. It`s not a transition.

I`m the same human. I`ve got the same heart I did five years ago. Everything about me the same. Same skin, same human. So it`s not a transition. It`s a movement. It`s a growth. It`s a change.


HAMMER: Really? A movement? Well, she certainly believes very strongly what she`s saying.

Let me bring in entertainment journalist Kelly Carter right now.

Kelly, you hear all this coming from Miley Cyrus. Is she just delusional?

KELLY CARTER, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: "Delusional" is a fantastic word. I think that she`s young, though. I think that`s probably a better word. I don`t think that she really knows, you know, like you said earlier, who she really is right now. And she`s just kind of out there doing way too much. Way too much.

HAMMER: I`ve all been for her expressing herself artistically. I`ve never taken away anything from her about doing that. But I don`t think that`s what`s going on here.

Here`s somebody else who`s calling Miley delusional. None other than one- time bad girl herself, Sinead O`Connor. Now today, Sinead released an open letter to Miley. I want to read it to you.

She said, "I`m extremely concerned for you that those around you have led you to believe or encouraged you in your own belief that it is any way cool to be naked and licking sledgehammers in your videos. It is, in fact, the case that you will obscure your talent by allowing yourself to be pimped, whether it`s the music business or yourself doing the pimping."

Michael, I think that Sinead is right on. I mean, why hide your talent? She obviously has it.

BILLY: Absolutely right on. And this movement has no message that she`s speaking about.

Look, I mean, I own a management company. I mean, we run J.B. Talent Management. We work with talent all the time. And our whole position is, "You know what? If you`re going to be in this business, be responsible and have a message."

And this movement that Miley has with her type of celebrity doesn`t have that message. I mean, if she was doing something that drew attention to a cause or a way of life or a way of being, fine, but nakedness, I don`t know if that`s a cause.

HAMMER: Yes. And right away, of course, Miley slammed Sinead, basically suggesting she has no idea what she`s talking about.

That leaves us at No. 1 on today`s countdown of today`s top three stories that made us ask "Are They Delusional?" I can`t reveal what`s No. 1 just yet, but I can tell you that you definitely do not want to miss our big reveal.

Also, it`s a very big night here on SBT. In fact, it`s almost criminal. That`s because tonight we are naming what we believe are the top ten crime shows of all time.

Think about it: "The Sopranos," "Breaking Bad," "Miami Vice." So many good ones. We reveal the most dramatic and just plain addictive crime shows ever put on TV.


DON JOHNSON, ACTOR: Five thousand street corners in greater Miami and Gumby here has got to pick ours.


HAMMER: Oh, yes. Crocket and Tubbs still looking good with the perfect hair and the perfect suits, fighting crime in South Beach. Did any show ever capture crime-fighting style better? Which are we going to name No. 1?

This is SBT on HLN.


HAMMER: People say and do some strange stuff. That`s why we`re counting down the top three stories breaking today that had us asking "Are They Delusional?"

Right now it`s the big reveal, No. 1 on our countdown. It`s Lamar Odom and his possible self-healing rehab plans.

Listen to this: Khloe Kardashian`s husband is reportedly making some disturbing new claims about his alleged drug habit. TMZ is reporting today that Lamar claims to be five days clean and that he has the will power to kick drugs on his own.

Lamar`s claims comes as this new picture of him just surfaced. The new picture is on the left. And he does look a bit thinner than we`re used to seeing.

What I also find interesting is that, just like Khloe, he`s actually still wearing his wedding ring. What could that mean?

TV and radio host Michael Billy back with me now.

Michael, you`ve always been very candid, very open with us about how many times you`ve been to rehab. Is Lamar being delusional, saying, "Look, I can kick this thing on my own"?

BILLY: Absolutely delusional. It`s crack. Crack, A.J. It`s a serious problem.

He -- and unfortunately, with Lamar, it`s not like he`s in a different place than many other addicts who have become sober for a matter of a few days. And they decidedly think that, "Hey, I have the way out. I know the right way. It`s me. I`ve got this under control."

The whole point of being, you know, when you`re recovery is to notice that you are an addict and that you don`t have control and you don`t have the will power. You can`t have the will power to get better just on your own whim. I mean, it`s an important part of his life right now, because it`s great that you`re a few days sober, but rehabilitation is a lifelong process. And you can`t get too -- too full of yourself to think that you have it under control and that this is something that you can take care of.

HAMMER: Yes. I want to put up that picture one more time of Lamar looking a bit thinner, if we can. I mean, look at him there. Certainly looks like a thinner guy than we`re used to seeing. And we`ve heard how much of a strain this has been putting on his marriage to Khloe. But Michael, what does this say to you, that he`s still wearing the wedding ring? Do you view that as a symbol that he is really trying to get his life back together and he does expect things to get back to normal?

BILLY: Absolutely. Without a doubt. Look, as many times as I`ve been in trouble, you know, rehabilitation five times for myself, there was a different person underneath. And that person still exists even at a time of addiction. If he`s experiencing some sobriety, that person may be surfacing. We`ve just got to do everything we can to cradle and help that person come through and fight the addict side.

HAMMER: Yes. And obviously, you want to have all the hope you can possibly have and looking down at your ring thinking, you know, this might actually happen again, that can only be a good thing.

BILLY: Good people can be addicts.

HAMMER: All right, Michael. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Well, as we move on tonight, I am naming the top ten TV crime shows of all time like "CSI", "The Sopranos," "Breaking Bad," "The Sire." We reveal the best cops and criminals every brought into your living room. From Tony Soprano to Crockett and Tubbs. Did your favorite good guys and bad guys that you love to hate make the cut?

This is SBT on HLN.


HAMMER: Right now, we are daring to name what we think are the top 10 crime shows ever. Get ready to go in the interrogation room and onto the streets with the greatest TV good guys and bad guys of all time.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the bag and get down!



HAMMER: "CSI," "Law & Order," "The Sopranos," "Breaking Bad." We`ve got your fix of the TV crime shows that are more addictive than Walter and Jesse`s blue crystal meth. But which show will be number one, and will you agree with our pick?

Welcome back. And thank you for watching. I`m A.J. Hammer. So, tonight we`re going to do something that I think you`re going to agree with or maybe you won`t. You may say we`re crazy, but we are going there. Tonight in a very special addition to the countdown, we`re daring to name what we think are the top ten TV crime shows of all time. All the shows about bad guys, the shows about good guys who chase the bad guys. The shows about bad guys who chase other bad guys. So, out of all the cop shows, all the drug dramas, all the mob tales, what will we name number one?


HAMMER: Crimes get committed.


HAMMER: Crimes get solved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re arrested on attempt of the murder of (inaudible). Read him his right.

HAMMER: And some bad guys can go on breaking the law for years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody wins.

HAMMER: TV crime shows have been around for as long as TV itself, but these are our top ten TV crime shows of all time. Our number ten, the grandfather TV crime show.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was the cops drama before there were really cop dramas.

HAMMER: And a cop drama that spanned for decades with its heroic no nonsense TV crime stories.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is something wrong, you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, we figure murder.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Dragnet" did an enormous amount to establish the role of cops on television.


HAMMER: Number nine on our countdown .

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was justified. .

HAMMER: The FX drama, "Justified," which the Writers` Guild of America named one of the best written shows ever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m a deputy U.S. Marshal, boy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to give a drama.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you think I`m going to hand a man over to you to be murdered.

HAMMER: "Justified" is based on the works of the late mystery writer Elmore Leonard. It features the tough talking Kentucky marshal Raylan Givens with an itchy trigger finger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not going to shoot me.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Raylan Givens is the toughest tough guy on TV. He really is sort of this vigilante cop charter. And he happens to be on, you know, the wrong side and the right side of the law at the same time.

HAMMER: Next, at number eight in our countdown of top TV crime shows of all time. "CSI: Crime Scene Investigation." The show about forensic investigators who go looking for clues in all the gross places.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This guy has been dead seven days.

HAMMER: CSI has been one of the most popular shows on the planet, and it jumpstarted TV`s obsession with police procedural drama.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The CSI sort of pushed the very familiar procedural format, into the next generation in terms of special effects, in terms of content, in terms of just storytelling flesh.

HAMMER: Onto number seven in our TV crime show "Countdown": "Miami Vice", the slick 1980s cop drama featuring cool undercover narcotics cops, crocket and tubs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, there are some smooth cops.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . street corners in greater Miami, You`ve got to be here, he`s got to pick car.

HAMMER: Those clothes, those cars, the music.

"Miami Vice" screened `80s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The one thing that "Miami Vice" doesn`t get enough credit for, that it was actually a really good show.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I trusted you. God, I trusted you!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that show really holds up today, even if some of the tee-shirt choices do not.

HAMMER: It would be almost criminal not to name "Hill Street Blues" one of the top crime shows of all time, and it is number six on our countdown. This 1980s cop drama won 26 Emmy awards during its run, which ties it with the "West Wing" for the most awarded drama series ever. It`s known not only for its catch phrase .

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s be careful out .

HAMMER: but for its influence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is really more of a serialized drama. Yes, they had case of the week, but you were in it for the characters and that was a huge change for television.

HAMMER: A change that influenced the crime shows that came after it, including the remaining shows on our countdown of the top ten TV crime shows of all time.


HAMMER: I absolutely loved "Hill Street Blues." One of my favorites shows ever. Maggie Furlong is with us tonight from Hollywood. She`s a TV critic for "Huff Post" TV. And a self-proclaimed pop culture fanatic, which is why you are here, Maggie. So, there you have it, we revealed five of our top ten. I need to know from you, how are we doing so far?

MAGGIE FURLONG, HUFFINGTON POST: I mean so far so good. Not so bad, "Justified" was the only one that I was like wow, it`s a current show on the air. It`s one that I wasn`t exactly sure you were going to do. But every other show on there, you can see the influence that they`re having. And I`m sure in the years to come, we`ll look back and say, "Justified" had that same influence.

HAMMER: I think we will. Kristin Dos Santos also with us tonight from Hollywood. Kristin follows all of the TV crime shows as senior editor of E! online TV scoop, and I`m going to let you in on a little not so well known secret about me. During the "Miami Vice"s days, I did dress as Sonny Crockett. So, I was arguing for "Miami Vice" to make it a little higher up on the list, but are you with us so far on our top ten?

KRISTIN DOS SANTOS, E! ONLINE: Yeah, I have to say, I agree with Maggie. I was really pleased to see "Justified" in there. And I would actually bump it up higher on the list. I think it`s sort of one of TV`s best cut secrets right now. It was so phenomenal. And I agree, it`s going to be sort of ground breaking and sort of, you know, shaping television for years to come. By the way, can we see a photo of that at some point? Maybe can you tweet us, throwback Thursday?


DOS SANTOS: I`d love to be here .

HAMMER: Sunny and the barefoot sandals. And the .

DOS SANTOS: You want to tweet that out and let the world see it.

HAMMER: It`s not going to happen, sorry.


HAMMER: But listen, it`s just an incredible genre that`s been so successful with all of the crime shows and the great plots and the great twists, and the great casts. And every now and then we even get to see the cops themselves being crooked. This brings us to what we think is the number five best TV crime kill ever. And it`s "The Shield." That starred, of courses, Michael Chiklis. He was really one of the best good cops, bad cops of all times.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s that stuff for?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to use it to get you to tell me where Jenny (inaudible) is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your turn to play bad cop?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good cop and bad cop left for the day. I`m a different kind of cop.


HAMMER: Yeah, a different kind of cop. A corrupt kind of cop. So, Maggie, to me, I think the crooked cop storyline never gets old, and I also don`t think that "The Shield" could possibly have been as great a show if you didn`t have the great Michael Chicklis in that role?

FURLONG: Oh, 100 percent agree. You know, they talk about other people who are considered for the role and you just think "The Shield" was Chiklis. Chiklis is Vic Mackey. I cannot imagine anyone else playing that part and having fan continued to root for him, no matter what he did, no matter how many Armenian money trains they knocked up, and how money partners he had killed. You were rooting for it because he was such an antihero, but such a believable one that you wanted to see how it was going to play out.

HAMMER: Yeah, we didn`t care that he was crooked. And we still loved him. And Kristin, really, the guy always got the bad guy, so what`s not to love?

DOS SANTOS: Definitely, and I have to say, you know, when you think about it really was the first antihero cop show that ever existed. And it was the first show that sort of put FX on the map. Before that, they were sort of running like, you know, Ally McBeal`s reruns, and not the whole lot more. So, it was ground breaking television and really the first time you`re seeing these lead character that did these despicable unethical things and you totally rooted for him.

HAMMER: All right. Are you guys ready for number four? Here we go. It`s one of the best crime shows ever, certainly. It`s "Law & Order." So many spin offs came out of this. We have "Criminal Intent," "SVU,", "Trial by Jury," "Los Angeles." But Maggie, they all followed the original. So, there was really no way we in our minds we can leave it up our "Countdown" when we were putting this together.

FURLONG: Never. I mean again, "Law & Order" it`s better than the title.

HAMMER: Kristin, "Law & Order," you know, it was really the one that sort of set the standard for so many people in terms of the ultimate formula for a crime drama, wouldn`t you say?

DOS SANTOS: No, yeah, I definitely think it`s so funny, the way, in which you presented that, which is how can you leave it off the list? I mean it is the gold standard of crime dramas. It is the longest running drama on television tied with "Gunsmoke." And to have that sort of trademark framework that carried on for so many years. Dick Wolf is a genius.

HAMMER: Genius.

DOS SANTOS: Not only to have, you know, to have the detectives chasing the bad guys in the first half, and then the court proceedings in the second half. But that trademark ton-ton - I mean, you can`t hear that and not think immediately of where it`s from. And all of those amazing episodes of television.

HAMMER: Well, we are still working this list, I`ve got it right here. I`m not going to tell you what`s on it, just yet, Maggie and Kristin, stay where you are and we will together solve the mystery of what is the number one TV crime show of all time. And, you certainly count down can`t count down the top ten crime shows without this guy.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve got to sit down. I feel like I can`t stand. Is that OK, Tony? Can I sit?


HAMMER: Hey, let`s face it, Tony Soprano was the killer with the heart of gold. He made TV`s best mob show ever even tastier than a plate of noodles with extra gravy. But his tone of better bad guy than Walter White from chemistry teacher of a mad cook did Walter hook us harder on "Breaking Bad" than any other crime show ever? Our big reveal of our number one TV crime show of all time in just a moment. This is "SBT" on HLN.


HAMMER: Welcome back to the special edition of "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT." And our "Showbiz" countdown is we`re naming the top ten TV crime shows of all time. I love this countdown. We`re up to number three. Here you go. It`s HBO`s gritty and addictive crime drama, "The Wire." Let`s watch them.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right. Take this [EXPLETIVE DELETED] with you too. You are cuffed man.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You at least give me a fair chance, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, come on man, don`t do me like that man.


HAMMER: Yeah. Back with me now, "Huff Post`s" live`s Maggie Furlong and E!`s Kristin Dos Santos. So, Maggie, let me start with you. I mean this was a brutal, in your face look at life on the streets. And I have to believe that is a huge part of the reason this show works so well.

FURLONG: Absolutely. And it worked on so many different levels. It wasn`t just a look at Baltimore and the drug scene. It was how the drug scene affected the cops, the drug dealers, the kids who were dealing on the streets, the reporters reporting everything in Baltimore. And looked at it from every single angle each different season. And I think it gave us a fool pictures of what was actually happening in this city and maybe in other cities in the world. And it was - it was bleak, but they told a real story.

HAMMER: Yeah, really bleak. I remember sitting at home watching this thing and just thinking, wow, this is tough. I almost couldn`t continue to watch. But Kristin, I also found it and tell me if you did, too, so tough to turn away from it.

DOS SANTOS: Oh, absolutely. But I have to say, I think that`s part of the reason that the show really never had very solid ratings. They never won any major awards. But it`s kind of the cool kids show that was very much word of mouth, I think. Had it been on the air when we had more social media, I mean I think it went off in 2008, it would have been that show that began to build and build and build, because everyone was unable to turn away from it. Like you said, it was sort of that train wreck that you couldn`t stop watching, because it was so well done and so well written.

HAMMER: Yeah, if it was the show out right now, I total agree with you, it would have had even greater success. Well, another dearly departed HBO`s show is next on our list, it is a true classis, it is number two on our list of the top TV crime shows of all time. And it`s a show that I still miss. I still pop the DVDs in from time to time. And I`ve missed it ever since that final cut to black. "The Sopranos."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sorry. If you say, that was a bad luck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just stop push.


HAMMER: A lot of people weren`t happy to see Tony Soprano, but TV viewers sure were.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "The Sopranos" is probably the most influential show of the last 20 years.

HAMMER: "The Sopranos" featured a mob boss, Tony Soprano and his troubles with his mob family .


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t think! You disrespect this place.


HAMMER: And his real family.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible) I know what I`m doing.


HAMMER: And apart from being a great show, it brought us one of the most memorable characters ever on TV played by the late Jim Gandolfini.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The show never asked us to judge him. The show never asked us to hope to see him punished. The show put us inside his head which was a very uncomfortable place to be.

HAMMER: "The Sopranos" may have been uncomfortable, but as far as TV crime shows go, few were better.

And then it just kind of ended and we were all left wondering what the heck happened there. But, you know, this was one of those shows where you`re watching this very, very bad man. Very tough guy, Tony Soprano, you knew he was up to no good. You`re watching him do all of these brutal things, but you would still find yourself always rooting for him. Maggie, I think I`m among the many who feel the show would never have been so great were it not for James Gandolfini in the role as Tony Soprano.

FURLONG: Oh, absolutely. And, you know, they talk a lot. HBO has had a lot that there was a time when they thought maybe we should go more comedic with this. He`s a mobster, he`s doing bad things. We should get somebody to bring some levity to the role. Can you imagine him being like a wise guy? The fact that Gandolfini came in and played it so subtly .


FURLONG: So perfectly and with such emotion. I mean sitting in all the sessions with Dr. Melfi, you really like, and he said before, we weren`t asked to judge him. We were in his head seeing everything he was going through dealing with being this mob boss and what it has done to his life. It`s just fascinating, and is the role of his lifetime, of course.

HAMMER: Real lightning in the bottle for the entire cast. And thank goodness, they didn`t change a single thing about it.

All right, Maggie, Kristin, thank you for that. But do not move. Of course "The Sopranos" pure TV crime genius, but we still have the number one TV crime show of all time. Still ahead. What could possibly be number one? Is it your favorite crime show ever?


HAMMER: Welcome back to the special edition of the "SHOWBIZ Countdown." And I hope you are ready because we are about to name what we think is the best TV crime show ever. I think you`re going to agree with us. But here is what we`re at so far: number ten, "Dragnet." Number nine, "Justified." In the number eight was "CSI", at number seven, "Miami Vice", Number Six "Hill Street Blues." Coming at number five on the countdown, "The Shield", and at number four, "Law & Order." We named "The Wire" number three in our countdown and put "The Sopranos" at number two. So many great TV crime shows, but of course, only one can be number one. I think you`ll agree. Are you ready for it? Here is what we`re naming the best TV crime show of all time.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You clearly don`t know who you`re talking to, so let me clue you in. I`m not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens this door and gets shot and you think that of me? No. I am the one who knocks.


HAMMER: I miss you already, Walter White. Yeah, it is "Breaking Bad" because we think there has never been anything greater and after it ends at its five season run on AMC, a lot of people have been saying the same thing. Maggie, I mean come on, we got that right, didn`t we?

FURLONG: Especially showing that quote. I am the one who knocks. Walter White, they stocked the landing, you know, watching that finale, it could go either way, they could have messed it up. People could have been really upset, some people still, everyone - everyone is going to find something to complain about. I personally think it was the perfect ending and I don`t think I would have shown up today if it hadn`t been in the number one position.

HAMMER: Somebody else asked me about my feelings on the ending just today and I said flawless. So, Kristin, taking nothing away from any of the other amazing shows on our Countdown, including the great "Sopranos" at number two. There was no way "Breaking Bad" could be anything, but number one. Right?

DOS SANTOS: Absolutely. And what`s so crazy, is a week ago, you know, the "Sopranos" would have been undeniably in a number one - you know, it is, I think, one of the most groundbreaking television shows of all time. But "Breaking Bad" was just named by Guinness Book of World Record, as the highest rated series finale of all time, with a mega critic score of 99 out of 100. You know, everyone loved that finale. You`ve heard a little bit of this kind here and there, but it was flawless. And it was, I think, such an amazing underdog story that the show that wasn`t very highly rated in the first few seasons, the ratings were a little low built momentum and then by season five, it had doubled its ratings and just continued to climb. And now, it`s this cultural phenomena. I mean everyone has been talking about the show in the past couple of weeks.

HAMMER: And it`s not just the story, it wasn`t just a great writing. "Breaking Bad" probably had one of the best acting ensembles ever on a TV crime show. That includes R.J. Mitte. R.J., of course, played Walt Jr. and I spoke with R.J. about life after "Breaking Bad." But before we get to that let`s watch a little bit of what we love so much about this amazing show.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, you`re saying all this time you were lying about this? I mean and so you`re saying you`re a liar? You just admitted it. So, were you lying then or are you lying now? Which lie is it?


HAMMER: I mean that is so powerful, R.J. And look the character took it about as badly as everybody thought he would. So, despite all the tension we saw there and the tears and everything, you and the cast have obviously grown very close. You`ve become a big family over the years, and you said you basically grew up with them. I imagine it cannot have been easy to say good-bye to them or the show.

RJ MITTE, ACTOR: It`s still hard. It really is. Everyone is going their separate ways. Everyone is going to the places they`re going and we`re done. But while we were filming and what we will take away from this, no one can ever take from us. We had the most amazing experiences on the show. What we were able to do. All we were able to achieve. And the characters that we got to portray were amazing. They really were.

HAMMER: And all that great energy from the set really came across on screen. R.J. Mitte, obviously, a very classy guy and a great actor. And as Kristin just mentioned, when "Breaking Bad" first started back in 2008, hey, this thing wasn`t a hit. AMC even was hinting back at the time they didn`t know how long it was going to run. Maggie, what do you think turned things around for them?

FURLONG: You know, even AMC is crediting Netflix. People, the buzz kept building. People kept talking about the show and splitting that final fifth season into two gave people the time to actually catch up, totally marathon, binge watch all of "Breaking Bad" to watch those final eight episodes and to see the finale altogether. And, you know, they`ve said thank you Netflix for doing that. And I think it`s the testament to AMC that they gave them that time to grow without needing those huge numbers at the start. Thank God they did.

HAMMER: Yeah, thank God they did. Kristin, I mean when have we ever seen a show, let alone a TV crime show build such momentum toward its end?

DOS SANTOS: Never before, and I would have to say, you know, social media also helped with this. You know, it was a show that everyone was tweeting about, and that word of mouth just spread and spread and spread to the point where people didn`t want to binge watch and catch up before the finale, so it is honestly, I think the best TV) underdog story we have ever seen.

HAMMER: And make no mistake about it, watching actors like R.J. Mitte and, of course, Anna Gunn and Bryan Cranston do what they do best on screen together in that collective way that they did for so many years, really proves that great television can still happen. It keeps our faith going, and what fun it`s been counting down with you guys, to number one. Thanks so much Maggie and Kristin for being here.

And thank you for watching. I`m A.J. Hammer in New York. You can catch "SBT" Monday through Thursday at 11 P.M. Eastern and Pacific. HLN continues right now.