Return to Transcripts main page
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Death Toll Rises in Egypt; Father Fights for Medical Marijuana; Doctor Accused of Billing for Unnecessary Chemotherapy; Interview with Oprah Winfrey; Update on Fight Over Custody of 4-Year-Old Veronica
Aired August 15, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Dad joins me along Dr. Sanjay Gupta has done a 180 on medical marijuana.
And later my conversation with Oprah Winfrey and Forest Whitaker about Trayvon Martin, the N word, and race in America.
We begin, though, tonight with the breaking news. The growing carnage in Egypt and what, if anything, America can do to stop it. The second part of that, what to do is very unclear to say the least, the cost in human lives, though, is plain to see.
The breaking news tonight on two fronts, first, moments ago the Muslim Brotherhood spokesman announcing over Twitter that tomorrow will be a, quote, "Friday of anger," a day of anger, calling for marches to head toward Cairo's center afternoon prayers.
Also tonight the death toll from yesterday's clashes revised upwards significantly. The state-run TV station Nile TV now saying at least 580 people were killed in fighting yesterday and 4,000 wounded -- 580 killed, 4,000 people wounded. Eyewitnesses say the killing mostly at the hands of government forces, many of them are troops and security forces firing live ammunition to demolish a pair of protest camps in Cairo.
One especially shocking piece of video surfacing today on YouTube, according to "The New York Times," which put it on its blog, believed it was taken during a military assault on a sit-in outside a mosque. Now it's not easy to watch. You might want to look away. It shows a protester trying to carry a wounded man to safety and what happens next.
And according to "Times," a woman who appears to have been recording the assault was also shot. The "Times" could not determine nor can we whether she, too, was a protester or a journalist covering the scene.
Reaction to all the killings today felt across Egypt. This is Alexandria where thousands of Morsi supporters hit the streets, defying the state of emergency now in effect. In Giza not far from the pyramid the local government headquarters came under attack from Islamist forces who threw Molotov cocktails and blocked the nearby main road into Cairo.
Not far from there members of the Coptic Christian fifth surveyed the wreckage of their church. Last night a mob chanting for Egypt to become an Islam -- an Islamic state, torched and looted the house of worship. One of at least two churches burned last night, a third was set ablaze today.
Again nearly 600 people killed, 4,000 wounded. Today the Pentagon cancelled upcoming joint military exercises with Egypt and President Obama condemned the military government's recent actions. He did not, however, condemn the regime itself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't take sides with any particular party or political figure. I know it's tempting inside of Egypt to blame the United States or the West or some outside actor for what went wrong.
We've been blamed by supporters of Morsi. We've been blamed by the other side, as if we are supporters of Morsi. That kind of approach will do nothing to help Egyptians achieve the future that they deserve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Ever since the Camp David Peace Treaty in 1978 that future has been tightly coupled to the United States, especially the U.S. military with Egypt receiving about $1.5 billion a year in American aid. That's second only to what Israel gets.
President Obama has neither explicitly cut off the money nor referred to the military takeover as a coup which would shut off the dollars automatically.
In a moment, we'll talk about what the U.S. options are now if any. We got a full panel. Arwa Damon is -- is there in Cairo for us live. Egyptian journalist Mona Eltahawy on the phone, also from Cairo, Arab analyst Robin Wright, senior fellow at the Woodrow Wilson Center joins us, special "Newsweek" and "Daily Beast" correspondent Peter Beinart, he's the editor of the "Daily Beast's" OpenZion.com blog, and former Bush White House spokesman Ari Fleischer.
Arwa, let me start with you, you're on the ground. Hundreds dead, thousands injured. Can you take us through what's happened there today and what to expect with this just announced Friday of anger?
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, when we compare the situation to what took place yesterday, it was certainly significantly calmer but that does not mean that this crisis is by any stretch of the imagination over. The streets of Cairo were pretty empty throughout the entire day. Of course, now there's that curfew in place. Second night in a row that we've had the curfew here. State of emergency also, of course, to be lasting for about a month.
You were talking about the attacks on the churches there. Well, actually, we've been hearing various reports that the number is much, much higher, at least 30 to have been attacked across the entire country. And many people were warning prior to this violent crackdown that this would be the type of spillover, ripple effect violence that the country could have expected to see in the aftermath.
One of the many reasons why people were trying to urge the government to continue to pursue a peaceful solution.
The Ministry of Interior also, Anderson, announcing following a number of attacks on police stations and on government institutions that it would -- that it had authorized it's troops to use lethal force if such attacks took place once again. Of course, everyone very anxious about what tomorrow is going to bring especially with those mass demonstrations being called for by the Muslim Brotherhood, those expected to take place after noon prayers not too far from where we are right now -- Anderson.
COOPER: Mona, you say you support neither the military nor Muslim Brotherhood. But if you support neither, then who are you left with? And is that part of the problem right now, that there's -- that there's basically this polarized sides in Egypt?
MONA ELTAHAWY, EGYPTIAN COLUMNIST AND PUBLIC SPEAKER: Yes, absolutely, Anderson. I mean, I support neither side and -- but I want to make it very clear that I unequivocally condemn the mass killing by security forces yesterday and condemn the attacks on churches across the country.
And our biggest and most urgent need right now is to stop the killing and stop the blood because in one day yesterday, almost as many Egyptians were killed in that one day as they were during the 18 days that took us to get rid of Hosni Mubarak.
Now we do need somebody who's an alternative to the Muslim Brotherhood. The military could then constantly push the two -- between the two. And I don't think that Egypt needs to choose between the two. Egypt is much bigger than that.
And we need people -- now I personally support the decision by Mohamed ElBaradei yesterday to resign in protest at the mass killings and the violence. Because I think he took a principled stand and we need more voices like him, which exists. I mean, the Muslim Brotherhood and the military are not the only Egyptians around. There are many more. And we need to hear someone like Baradei and someone in that camp that says I reject violence.
From the security forces and the violence that we heard coming from the Muslim Brotherhood and their supporters, and say that for the sake of Egypt, the path they should be walking towards is the path of freedom and the path that recognizes all rights. Our revolution did not call for an Islamist state nor did it call for military rule.
COOPER: Robin, the Egyptian ambassador to the U.S. says that this is the most serious juncture Egypt has been in the last 30 years. Do you agree with that?
ROBIN WRIGHT, ARAB AFFAIRS ANALYST: Absolutely, and this is a real challenge for the Obama administration. After all the military has been the cornerstone of U.S. relations since the peace treaty, since the Egyptians walked away from their relationship with the Soviet Union.
All of the president since the monarchy was ousted in 1952 have come from the military until Mohamed Morsi, and this is a moment where the United States really has to review its relations with Egypt with the military, many of whom -- whose leaders were trained in the United States.
It has some tough decisions to make. What the president said today had some tough words but the action was actually rather symbolic. There are tough questions about not just aid but actually whether the United States has enough influence to really make a difference because the military is basically kind of sticking it to Washington and has indicated it's prepared to take its own action irrespective of what its allies or the international community has said in condemning what's happened in the last week.
COOPER: Ari, President Obama said today in part that the U.S. doesn't take sides with any particular party or political figure in Egypt. Do you buy that?
ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY FOR PRES. G.W. BUSH: Well, that's the right thing to say and we should not take sides. We have two bad sides to take a choice between but we did take sides previously. Remember, this is the president who said that President Mubarak must go.
And so we have waded to Egyptian affairs previously just two years ago and now we're the consequences not of what we did but where the Egyptians are going through on on ourselves and on all the world.
But I think this is like the French Revolution, Anderson. We're going to see this shift back and forth between one pole to the other pole. In the case of the French Revolution, it was the monarchy against all the revolutionaries. Here in Egypt, it's going to be the Muslim Brotherhood against the military. There is not much in the middle. And that's, I think, the reality of dealing with Egypt.
The United States' role is going to have to be symbolic because we don't have much influence in Egypt. It's a very difficult path for any president to walk. But at the end of the day, as much as we don't like the military, the last thing any of us should want, frankly, is for the Muslim Brotherhood -- as Americans -- to return to power in Egypt.
COOPER: Peter, what do you think?
PETER BEINART, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, NEWSWEEK AND THE DAILY BEAST: You know, honestly, it's amazing to me how people like Ari who said during the Bush administration that the agenda was supposed to be democracy. When Islamist parties win, all of a sudden say that they're -- the most important thing is to prevent Islamist parties from winning.
I don't think Morsi was a good leader. I don't -- he wouldn't have been my first or second or third or fourth candidate, but the important principle here is that the United States does not rule out any political party from being able to run in elections. We simply support the principle of free elections, rule of law, and minority rights.
And the Obama administration was played by the military, which made this big show of the idea that it would overthrow Morsi and bring a return back to democracy. Very rarely does that really happen with military coups. It didn't happen here and we should have been much stronger against it.
COOPER: Ari, I want you to be able to respond to that.
FLEISCHER: I agree with the principle that he laid out. But it's also important to note that Muslim Brotherhood did not govern in anything close to a democratic fashion. And the risk --
BEINART: And the military?
FLEISCHER: -- in the Arab Middle East is that people come to power through democracy or through coup and then they become even worse. That's what happened in Iran in the late 1970s, and this is not something we want to see happen in Egypt. That will not represent peace. It will not represent stability. It wouldn't be good for anybody in the region.
COOPER: Robin, how -- where do you see this going? I mean, it's impossible, I guess, to predict, obviously, but where do you see it? What options are there?
WRIGHT: There are some really important turning points that are just in the next few weeks. So first of all, the new constitution is supposed to be announced by next Wednesday and then it goes to a 50- member committee for review. The 50-member committee hasn't even been formed or announced anyway, and then the Egyptians are supposed to, under the roadmap for transition back to democracy, have elections for both a new parliament and a president within six months.
The real danger is that the whole principle, the whole process that has been laid out even in the last month since the coup, is likely to be eroded. That events on the ground will overtake any effort to get back to the democratic process and the danger is also that the military will not broker opposition or other voices when it comes to what is in the new constitution, whose allowed to run for parliament or for the presidency.
The exclusion of the Muslim Brotherhood or any other party, whatever their political stripes would be -- would show that the military is being once again very exclusive in power and that democracy is a dead issue in Egypt again, and that's a danger and a precedent for the whole region that's very dangerous.
COOPER: You know, Mona, I think back to early on, people like Fouad Ajami, who's on this program, said that those who rose up and protest against the Morsi government would rue the day they invited in the Egyptian military for a solution. Is there a sense of regret there for some? ELTAHAWY: I don't think that the military should play any role in Egyptian politics, Anderson. I think one of the main goals of our revolution was to end military rule, and we did by turning (INAUDIBLE) the military junta. That they had to step down, which they did. But the Egyptian military, and this is very ironic. The Egyptian military over the past year that we had Morsi as a president, it was strengthened by Mohamed Morsi, the president of the Muslim Brotherhood, basically, because the only two institutions that he strengthened during his time was the military and the Muslim Brotherhood.
Now I personally wish that the military had not had anything to do with the protest of June 30th, but it's very important to understand that General Sisi -- we will face him with as much opposition as we showed to Morsi and we showed to Mubarak because as I said we didn't call for an Islamic state or for military rule.
And this irony of the Brotherhood striking just the military and the military now turning against them, this is why I keep insisting that there are more Egyptians outside of this dichotomy. I think the outside world thinks that we're all firmly down these two camps. We're not. We're much more complex than that.
But the rule of law and basic rights, and human rights for everybody in Egypt. This is what we should be talking about, not choose between the military and choose between the Muslim Brotherhood.
COOPER: Now, Arwa, you were there in 2011 during those sort of heavy days of the revolution that overthrew Mubarak. Just on a personal level, what is it like on the streets? What are you hearing from people? What is it like there, especially with this day of anger called for tomorrow, what to expect?
DAMON: There's a lot of tension. There is a lot of anger, there's a lot of frustration, and there also is, Anderson, you know, you and the other journalist who covered 2011 will remember it quite well. A lot of anti-journalist sentiment, everybody quite angry at the press, especially the foreign media, no matter which side of this current crisis they are on.
But, you know, most people, they just really want to see the country moving forward. The most critical thing for so many here right now is the economy. People really want to begin to live a descent, normal life. But as so many Egyptians have been telling me, key to that, key to redefining this new Egypt is going to be for the population to begin to learn how to respect the other, rather than fear the other, and they need to really figure out a way to end this culture that seems to be perpetuated of demonizing other people quite simply because they don't have the same ideology.
All that being said and done, though, Anderson. This is still a country that emerged from 30 years under Mubarak. It's still a country that is trying to redefine and rebalance itself.
COOPER: Arwa Damon, appreciate you being there. Stay safe. Mona Eltahawy, you as well. Peter Beinart, thank you. Robin Wright, Ari Fleischer, as well.
Let us know what you think, let's talk about it on Twitter during the break, @andersoncooper is my Twitter address.
Next, he's got a short temper and a sharp tongue. It's not easy to confront New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. You're going to meet a man who did, though, for a very good reason. His 2-year-old daughter's life may depend on it.
Later, what this cancer doctor is accused of doing is just obscene. Lining his pockets by pumping his patients full of chemo, patients who not only didn't need chemo but didn't even have cancer at all. "Crime & Punishment" when we continue.
COOPER: Welcome back. In his compelling documentary "WEED" Dr. Sanjay Gupta told the story of a young girl named Charlotte. Charlotte, who's just 5 years old, has epilepsy. She was having as many as 300 seizures a week, each one potentially deadly. Medical marijuana reduced that number to just a handful. Charlotte lives in Colorado where medical marijuana is legal.
Vivian Wilson, 2 years old, who also suffers from a potentially deadly kind of epilepsy, lives in New Jersey where it faces tighter restrictions.
Now that could change if Governor Chris Christie signs the bill now on his desk permitting severely ill children to use an edible strain of cannabis. He's promised a decision by tomorrow. Vivian's doctors have already tried seven different kinds of drugs to treat her condition without much luck. Cannabis may be Vivian's only alternative.
Yesterday Brian Wilson made his case to the governor one-on-one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN WILSON, WANTS MEDICAL MARIJUANA FOR HIS DAUGHTER: I'm just wondering if I can have a half a minute? I've been trying to get in touch with you and can't get through to you. I was wondering what the holdup is. It's been like two months now and --
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, NEW JERSEY: Sir, because these --
WILSON: These are very well documented.
CHRISTIE: Excuse me. These are -- these are complicated issues. I know -- no, I know you think it's simple. It's not.
WILSON: We've had this discussion.
CHRISTIE: I know you think it's simple -- it's simple for you, it's simple for me.
WILSON: We've had our experts reach out to you. Have you heard from our doctors?
CHRISTIE: I have read everything that's been put in front of me and I'll have a decision by Friday. I wish the best for you, your daughter and your family, and I'm going to do what I think is best for the people in the state. All the people in the state --
WILSON: Do you think it's best for the governor to come between the doctors and the patients?
CHRISTIE: Sir, you know --
WILSON: Is this a nanny state?
CHRISTIE: Sir --
WILSON: I'm just curious because --
CHRISTIE: I'm making -- I'm elected to make these decisions. I'll make the decisions and I'll make it in time.
WILSON: Our elected representatives have spoken to us and told you that they wanted to. Please don't let my daughter die, Governor. Don't let my daughter die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Please don't let my daughter die, he said.
Again, Governor Christi's decision could come tomorrow. That's what he said it would.
I spoke with Brian Wilson and Dr. Gupta earlier tonight.
COOPER: Brian, you said to Governor Christie, please don't let my daughter die, Governor. Explain to people why for your daughter medical marijuana could be the difference between life and death.
WILSON: Well, every day Vivian suffers seizures, some full-on Tonic- clonics, other small minor ones. Those are all taking a toll on her body, her mind, her heart. She has stopped breathing several times during seizures. She can also die of SU death, which is sudden unexplained death in epilepsy at any moment.
There was a time period in April, there were four children with Dravet Syndrome who died. It's a real factor in this disorder. And unless we can control those seizures that she's having, which the drugs, you know, the heavy pharmaceuticals that she's on, are failing to do. So unless we can control those seizures, she stands a very good chance like the other children of dying and medical marijuana, especially these high CBD, low THC strains have shown some great promise in all the children who've been taking them. And, you know, we just need to get her on it to save her life. Otherwise, you know, she could very easily die.
COOPER: I can't imagine what this is like for your family to see this and for you.
Just to be clear, though, kids can be prescribed medical marijuana in New Jersey right now. It's the current restrictions that you take issue with, correct?
WILSON: Correct. Vivian has a medical marijuana card but the program in New Jersey was pretty much regulated out of functionality. Nothing about the regulations really allow the program to exist and run. The bill that we have on the governor's desk right now is trying to help ease some of those regulations that they can actually become an operational program.
And we just cannot get what she needs. We can't get any CBD strains. She would only be able to smoke it if she got it. And, you know, the restrictions for doctors for any other children who want to get on the program is just so onerous. We're talking about a medicine here. It should be treated like a medicine. It should be prescribed by a single doctor and you should be able to get it in a strength and a form that's required for the specific ailment you have.
COOPER: Yes, the idea that you're going to have a 2-year-old smoking marijuana is obviously ridiculous. The kind of marijuana you're talking about would be in an oil or a throat lozenge, correct?
WILSON: Right. Well, they allow throat lozenges currently in the law but they haven't approved any. Vivian, on her diet, wouldn't be able to take any. Also a 2-year-old could very easily choke on a lozenge. So this current law only allows for the plant or a lozenge. We're looking for like an oil, a butter, some sort of extract. The law doesn't allow for any extracts. We're trying to change that so -- you know, Vivian and the other patients can get the medicine in the forms they need.
You can even put it in a gel cap. You know, in Colorado you get prescriptions, you get capsules, take two in the morning, take two at night. You know, it's --
COOPER: Yes, and --
WILSON: This is medication.
COOPER: In Los Angeles, in clinics in some of these marijuana clinics, they have it in gelato or an ice cream, I suppose. That would be something a 2-year-old would like.
Sanjay, in general, what's the science in terms of medical marijuana for children? And we're talking about a 2-year-old child here. And I guess some people are going to say wow, 2 years old, that sounds young to be taking medical marijuana. DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. No doubt. And I think, you know, you want to proceed with caution. Certainly. There is more data sort of looking at seizure disorders overall. What Brian is describing, and I saw it with young Charlotte as well in our documentary is sort of an intractable type of seizure where it's just very, very difficult to treat. And Charlotte was on seven different medications as well.
Brian is right, you know, there is some data that's been collected by some of the doctors in Colorado as well as some of the dispensary owners of the Stanley brothers, about 41 patients, I believe now, all children with Dravet Syndrome, I think 80 percent they said they had significant improvement. All of them have some important but 80 percent had significant improvement where they didn't need the other medications anymore.
COOPER: But, Sanjay, in terms of -- you're physician now. You've done a 180 on this.
GUPTA: Yes, I think look, I mean, I saw first hand, you know, obviously not just Charlotte but lots of other patients who clearly have a significant problem here. I mean, this intractable epilepsy. Charlotte was having 300 seizures a week. You heard Brian described what's happening with Vivian. So they have a legitimate problem and we know that this cannabis, this medical cannabis, which again is high CBD, low THC.
That may sound like alphabet soup to people. But high CBD is the medicinal part of it. THC is the psycho active part of it. These kids aren't getting high, they're getting a medicine. And also in Charles' case she was taking an oil as Brian described. So this isn't, you know, someone smoking it. But they got better from this when nothing else worked.
COOPER: Brian, are you considering moving if he vetoes the bill?
WILSON: Absolutely. You know, we've already been looking at, you know, areas to move to in Colorado. There is actually quite a migration going on currently right after Dr. Gupta's special aired on the Pediatric Cannabis Therapy Board. On Facebook there was a whole bunch of new registrants, they have a bunch of new people saying, how do we get to Colorado and how -- you know, a lot of parents with kids with these severe disorders who are very, very interested.
You know, the parents are waking up to this, and, you know, we demand that our kids can be healthy and that we can make those decisions with our doctors about what's right for our children.
COOPER: Well, Brian, I'm so sorry you're in this situation. Our best to Vivian and the rest of your family. We'll continue to follow this. Thank you for being with us, and Sanjay as well.
GUPTA: Thank you.
WILSON: Thank you.
COOPER: Well, if you missed it the first time around, you can catch Sanjay's documentary "WEED" this Friday, 10:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN.
Just ahead, the Michigan cancer doctor who's facing horrific allegations. Dr. Farid Fata is accused of pumping his patients full of chemo they didn't need. Some of them didn't even have cancer. All to line his pockets.
Plus my interview with Oprah Winfrey and Forest Whitaker. The civil rights movement as the backdrop for their new movie "The Butler" and if the characters used the N word, that wasn't easy for Oprah. Here's her take on using the N word.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, ACTRESS, "THE BUTLER": It's impossible for me to do it because I know the history, and I know that for so many of my relatives, whom I don't know, who I don't know by name, people who I am connected to, my ancestors, that was the last word they heard as they were being struck by a tree.
COOPER: Welcome back. In "Crime and Punishment" tonight, a medical fraud case as shocking as any we've seen. Dr. Farid Fata, a Michigan cancer doctor, is in jail cell tonight. He's being held on a $9 million bond. The allegations against him in a 21-page criminal complaint can only be described as horrific. The doctor is accused of billing for unnecessary and expensive medical tests and treatments, including chemotherapy, chemotherapy that patients didn't actually need. Some of them didn't even have cancer at all. It's hard to imagine any doctor making up a cancer diagnosis just to turn a profit, but that is exactly what federal authorities are alleging. Former employees blew the whistle on the doctor. Gary Tuchman reports.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Dennis Hageman felt a lump on his leg in 2009. He and his wife Nancy did the logical thing - they went to see a doctor. Dr. Farid Fata.
NANCY HAGERMAN, HUSBAND WAS PATIENT OF DR. FARID FATA: He told us the type of tumor that it was, was osteosarcoma, that it was totally treatable with chemotherapy.
TUCHMAN: Nancy told Dr. Fata she had a new job and she would have insurance in a matter of days.
Your insurance kicked in?
TUCHMAN: You could have paid for this treatment through insurance?
HAGERMAN: Yes. TUCHMAN: But he insisted to you it's going to be really expensive, it's better to have Medicaid?
HAGERMAN: Absolutely. Those are his exact words.
TUCHMAN: Dr. Fata, says Nancy, wouldn't treat her husband at this medical complex in Rochester, Michigan, until she was approved for Medicaid. What she didn't know at the time was that she was a part of what investigators say was an elaborate Medicare-Medicaid scam that lined Dr. Fata's pockets with tens of millions of dollars.
HAGERMAN: Every time we could go to the office for a checkup or whatever, the first thing he would ask, have you heard from Medicaid yet? No, we have not. Well, we really have to wait for that, because treatments are very expensive. And--
TUCHMAN: So he wouldn't do any treatment?
HAGERMAN: He did nothing.
TUCHMAN: So your husband had this growing tumor, and he kept saying you need to have Medicaid before we start?
TUCHMAN: Nancy ended up bringing her husband to another facility, where he was treated immediately and proficiently. And now federal investigators say Nancy's story was just the tip of the iceberg.
According to the indictment, less than two weeks ago the FBI interviewed an oncologist who worked with Dr. Fata. That oncologist told the FBI that Fata would give chemotherapy, quote, "where it is medically unnecessary or at inappropriate dosages." The FBI says that oncologist also said Fata would give chemotherapy to all end of life patients, instead of letting them die in peace.
Dr. Fata is even accused of diagnosing people with cancer who didn't have cancer. Why in the world would he do that? Simply put, investigators say, money. Investigators say he charged Medicare for the tune of at least $150 million since 2009, and collected $65 million of it, most of it fraudulent. Money that was very possibly used for possessions like his suburban Detroit mansion.
It's not clear if he did the same with the Medicaid program. The indictment also alleges the doctor told the patient who had hit head in the office that would have to get chemotherapy before he can go to the emergency room for his head injury. That patient later died from that head injury.
Milton Berz was another one of Fata's patients. He had a mild form of leukemia and was doing well without chemotherapy. He switched to Dr. Fata because he wanted to go to a closer hospital. His son Jeffrey says Fata immediately started an aggressive chemotherapy regiment, in retrospect aggressive and bizarre, says Jeffrey.
JEFFREY BERZ, SON OF A PATIENT: Somebody from Dr. Fata's staff would actually come out into the parking garage and give my dad the chemotherapy right there while - as he sat in his car.
TUCHMAN: Basically, Fata was treating this like it was a McDonald's or Burger King, you drive through and you get your cancer treatment?
BERZ: I've heard it compared to that already, and it almost appears that way to us now as we think about it.
TUCHMAN: But now Jeffrey Berz is left with a memorial to his father. Milton Berz died four months after Dr. Fata started his aggressive chemotherapy treatment.
BERZ: He died ultimately when his kidneys failed and shut down. He spent the last few hours of his life in excruciating pain, on morphine.
TUCHMAN: Dennis Hagerman recovered after he left Dr. Fata, but two years later, the cancer came back and spread, and he, too, passed away. However, Nancy Hagerman can't ever forget the week she and her husband did nothing about his cancer while agreeing to Dr. Fata's request for the Medicaid to kick in.
HAGERMAN: I want him to go to prison, I want him to think every day about what he's done to these people.
BERZ: I'm trying to cope with my father's death that happened in 2008, and it's like it's happening all over again.
COOPER: Gary joins us now from Detroit. The allegations are just stunning. The indictment lists all sorts of things that the doctor allegedly did. What else stands out to you, Gary?
TUCHMAN: There are so many things in that indictment, Anderson. One of them, though, is that the FBI says a medical assistant told them Dr. Fata, once he started chemotherapy, would tell the patients you will have to undergo chemotherapy the rest of your life. In addition to that, Fata owns a radiology center, Anderson, and according to the FBI, a medical assistant said that he would ask, Fata would ask them to say that these people had cancer even if they didn't, so they would also have to go to the radiology center. The allegation here is that this guy is just very greedy and wants money from all areas.
COOPER: I mean, it is unbelievable. What is his lawyer saying?
TUCHMAN: So his lawyer is telling us, he can't talk, he's in jail right now. His lawyer is telling us he claims he's innocent, and he will fight these charges. He's right now, Anderson, in jail, on a $9 million bond. And he is not permitted, if he wanted a bond, he's wealthy, but if he wanted to bond out, he's not permitted to use any of the alleged ill-gotten gains. The attorney is telling us that he doesn't have the $9 million. For now he'll be staying in jail.
COOPER: We'll continue to follow it. Gary, appreciate the reporting. Thanks. Coming up, my conversation with Oprah Winfrey and Forest Whitaker about their new movie with the backdrop of the civil rights movement and their thoughts about race in America right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST, ACTRESS: The truth of the matter is, Emmett Till became a symbol for those times as Trayvon Martin has become a symbol for this time. I mean, there are multiple Trayvon Martins whose names never make the newspapers or the headlines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Also ahead, the custody battle over Veronica, whose biological father defied a court order to turn the little girl over to her adoptive parents. The fight is not over, but she may soon get to see those parents, the latest on that coming up.
COOPER: My candid, in-depth conversation with Oprah Winfrey about race, the Trayvon Martin case, and why she says it's impossible for her to use the "n" word. That's ahead on 360.
COOPER: Tonight, a big "360" interview, Oprah Winfrey. It's been 15 years since she appeared on the big screen in the movie "Beloved," but starting tomorrow, she's back in movie theaters, co-starring with Forest Whitaker in Lee Daniels' "The Butler." Oprah told me she wanted to do the film because of its backdrop, the civil rights movement, and because of where we are in the evolution of our nation right now. More on that in a moment. But first a clip of the movie, based on a true story. Forest Whitaker stars as a butler who served American presidents over three decades, and the film shows how changes in society and the White House over that time affected his own family. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: What was the name of that movie, honey?
FOREST WHITAKER, ACTOR: "In the heat of the night."
WINFREY: "In the heat of the night" with Sydney Poitier --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sydney Poitier is a white man's fantasy of what he wants us to be.
WHITAKER: What are you talking about? He just won the Academy Award. He's breaking down barriers for all of us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By being white, or acting white? Sydney Poitier is nothing but a rich uncle Tom.
WHITAKER: Look at you. All puffed up. Hat on your head, covering the ear (ph), saying whatever you want. You need to go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?
WHITAKER: Get the hell out of my house! Get on out!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry, Mr. Butler, I didn't mean to make fun of your hero.
WINFREY: Everything you are and everything you have is because of that butler.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I spoke at length to Forest Whitaker and Oprah Winfrey about the film and about race in America, particularly after the Trayvon Martin case. Here is part of that interview.
COOPER: You talk about this coming at an important time, and certainly there has been, in the wake of the Trayvon Martin case, a discussion about race in this country that it is interesting -- I saw a Gallup poll recently that the majority of African-Americans said this is a discussion which needs to be had. Majority of whites say, too much is being made of -- of this discussion of race.
WINFREY: Oh, I know.
COOPER: How do you - what do you-
WINFREY: That's why I love the film, in light of this discussion, is because it brings context to the discussion. And when you look at the film, beginning with that lynching scene and ending with, you know, walking into Obama's office, look at what has happened in the span of one man's lifetime in our country.
WHITAKER: This movie reminds us that the circular motion of things still trying to work themselves out is going on, as in Emmett Till, and then now it's moving in, and we're looking at Trayvon, we're looking at Oscar Grant, we are looking at all these situations and recognizing that we have to move ourselves forward in this chain. In order for us to achieve our potential or what we said we were going to do.
WINFREY: And the truth of the matter is, Emmett Till became a symbol for those times as Trayvon Martin has become a symbol for this time. I mean, there are multiple Trayvon Martins whose names never make the newspapers or the headlines. The circumstances surrounding that allowed it to be, but there were multiple Emmett Tills. There were multiple lynchings, there were multiple young black boys --
COOPER: People whose names are not even remembered by history.
WINFREY: Whose names are not remembered and often not even reported. COOPER: It's interesting to me, though, how people from different backgrounds see this. I talked to a juror on the Trayvon Martin case who clearly did not understand or did not feel linked to Trayvon Martin, felt connected to George Zimmerman in a way but not to Trayvon Martin, and I wonder if - and she felt race was not a part of this case at all. I'm just wondering --
WINFREY: People feel it's not race because they don't call it race. That's not what they call it. They don't say oh -- because you know what I found, too? A lot of people if they think they aren't using the "n" word themselves, they actually physically are not using the "n" word themselves and do not have - harbor ill will towards black people, that it's not racist. But, you know, to me it's ridiculous to look at that case and not to think that race was involved.
COOPER: It's interesting you talk about the "n" word. In the film it's used very early on, but what's fascinating, it's not just by the guys on the plantation, it's used by LBJ. And in those LBJ recording, you hear him use it, and in the film there is a scene where people in the kitchen are saying, I see him on TV saying Negro - and somebody says, like, when did he start using--
WINFREY: (inaudible) character --
COOPER: When did he start using that word? He always uses the "n" word.
WINFREY: "N" word, yeah.
COOPER: Was that hard for you? I know you have spoken in public about the importance of not using that word.
WINFREY: I think it depends in the context of the time in which you were raised. I was raised in the '60 and -
COOPER: You're from Mississippi.
WINFREY: Yes, and not only that, a student of my history. And I have said this many times, it's not a part of who I am to use that word. I understand why other people do. It's impossible for me to do it because I know the history, and I know that for so many of my relatives whom I don't know, who I don't know by name, people who I'm connected to, my ancestors, that was the last word they heard as they were being strung up by a tree. That was the last sense of degradation that they experienced as, you know, some harm was caused to them. I just -- it's just not a part of the fabric of who I am. So out of respect to those who have come before and the price that they paid to rid themselves of being relegated to that word, I just don't use it.
COOPER: Well, we had a fascinating conversation. We're going to have more on my interview with Oprah Winfrey and Forest Whitaker tomorrow on "360." Lee Daniels' "The Butler" opens in theaters tomorrow. Just ahead, the custody battle over Veronica may be nearing a breaking point. The little girl's adopted parents are in Oklahoma tonight to try to bring their daughter home. The lawyers for both sides are talking. Randi Kaye has new details on those talks ahead.
COOPER: Tonight the bitter custody battle over a little girl named Veronica is coming to a head in Oklahoma. Veronica turns 4 next month. We have been covering her story for years. We first knew her as baby Veronica, and we watched her grow into a toddler, now a preschooler. Tonight's standoff was set in motion by a Supreme Court ruling in June. It opened the door to returning Veronica to her adoptive parents, who live in South Carolina. They raised Veronica for the first two years of her life. For the past 19 months, however, Veronica has been living in Oklahoma with her biological father, who is part Cherokee. He challenged Veronica's adoption under federal law aimed at keeping Indian families together. The biological father has already defied a court order to return Veronica to the adopted parents. He was arrested and posted bond. The adoptive parents are in Oklahoma right now demanding to take her home with them. Neither side is backing down. Randi Kaye joins me now. Randi, what's the latest?
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, just more twists and turns to report tonight, Anderson, here from Tulsa, Oklahoma. As you said, we've been following this story for years. The Capobiancos came here. They have been desperate to get their little girl back. They hoped to bring her from Oklahoma back to South Carolina, and all they have found here is just more stonewalling and the standoff continues. But tonight, some big news. We spoke to the attorney for Dustin Brown, the biological father, and he told us tonight that he's offering a face-to-face meeting with Veronica and the Capobiancos. Now, the Capobiancos have not committed to this, they have not said yes. They want to know where it is, what the circumstances are. They don't want Dustin Brown there, they want just some one-on-one time with Veronica.
I also asked the attorney, well, what does this mean? Does this mean that he's willing to hand over custody now finally to the Capobiancos? He said absolutely not. The attorney says his client will take this all the way to the Oklahoma courts. He's going to fight this tooth and nail, to the end. He just said that this is simply about letting the Capobiancos see her again, get reacquainted with her, say hello to her, spend some time with her. He said that there are a lot of steps that need to be taken if, and he said if, Anderson, if she's ever going to be handed back over to the Capobiancos.
COOPER: But the Supreme Court has ruled on this. What about law enforcement? Can they help try to move this along or go get Veronica to return her to the adoptive parents?
KAYE: That's what we wanted to know. We interviewed the sheriff for Nowata County today, where Veronica lives, and he told us that if the Capobiancos have any attention of coming there in the middle of the night or in the cover of darkness to try to get Veronica, he'll arrest them and charge them with kidnapping. He also said he's not taking sides, but he is not about to arrest Dustin Brown, even though there is a warrant out for his arrest in South Carolina related to this whole custody handover. I also asked him that very question, why can't you just go and get Veronica and return her to the Capobiancos, who according to the courts, are her legal parents? And this is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Why can't you just go and get Veronica and bring her back to her adoptive parents?
SHERIFF JAMES HALLETT, NOWATA COUNTY SHERIFF: The sheriff's office can only enforce state statutes and orders of the court. Which is to follow along the same lines. So we cannot pick up a child and just give them to those people on South Carolina's say so. They have to file certain papers and do -- it's an adoption. File the right paperwork here to get their child back, or if that is their child, however the courts rule.
KAYE: Even though South Carolina's court has said the adoption is final and she does belong to them?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: I also asked that attorney for Dustin Brown today to respond to the Capobiancos' plan. They have been saying all along we're not going to leave Oklahoma without her. And he asked me very sarcastically, well, are they planning to shop for a house here, are they planning to buy a house? In other words, indicating the Capobiancos are in for a very long fight, Anderson.
COOPER: And is it clear where Veronica is?
KAYE: Not really. We went to Dustin Brown's house today. There was a truck in the driveway. We knocked on the door. There weren't any children's toys outside, nobody came to the door. But I can tell you that there is someone who is friendly with the Capobiancos. He calls himself a reunion facilitator, he's done this before. He actually got a tip where Dustin Brown was. He went there. It turns out he's on tribal land in this house. He was stopped by tribal marshals. He sent a note through the marshals, trying to create a dialogue without the lawyers, just have a conversation with Dustin Brown about this, and Dustin Brown sent a message back, "I have no interest in talking to you." That was through the tribal marshals. So all we know is that Veronica could be in that house on tribal land. Supposedly she is with her biological grandparents. That's what Dustin Brown has been telling us all along, Anderson.
COOPER: Wow, difficult case. Randi, thanks. There is a lot more we're following tonight. Susan Hendricks joins with us with a 360 news and business bulletin. Susan.
SUSAN HENDRICKS, CNN ANCHOR: Anderson, a second hostage shot in the bank hostage standoff in St. Joseph, Louisiana, has died. The gunman was also killed when police stormed the building late Tuesday night. A third hostage was freed. The NTSB has found no evidence of engine failure or a fire aboard the UPS cargo plane before it crashed in Birmingham, Alabama. Now, investigators hope to uncover clues to the crash from the cockpit voice and flight data recorders that were recovered from the burned wreckage.
A "360" follow-up. A picture of determination, that is Boston bombing victim Jane Richard (ph) with her new prosthetic leg. Her family says they are inspired by her recovery, but they admit the emotional pain of losing Jane's brother Martin in the attack is every bit as new as it was four months ago. That is Martin on the far left in that picture.
And take a look at this, the Smithsonian Institution has announced the discovery of a new mammal species. Meet the olinguito, a member of the raccoon family, found in Ecuador and Colombia. This is the first new species of carnivore found in the Americas in 35 years.
COOPER: It's cool.
HENDRICKS: It is.
COOPER: It's cute.
HENDRICKS: It is.
COOPER: All right, Susan, thanks, we'll be right back.
COOPER: Ran out of time for "The Ridiculist" tonight. That does it for us. We'll see you again one hour from now, at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, another edition of "360." "PIERS MORGAN LIVE" starts now.