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CNN'S AMANPOUR
Updates On The Children Of "56 Up"; "Searching For Sugar Man" Shows Journey Between Michigan and South Africa
Aired August 7, 2013 - 17:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Good evening, everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour, and welcome to a special edition of our program, where we take a look at some of the stories and conversations that I had this year. We update them, and we think they're worth sharing with you again.
British filmmaker Michael Apted is an acclaimed Hollywood success with Oscars and a James Bond epic under his belt. But he's also known as the man who put one of the world's greatest sociological experiments on film.
For half a century, he has tracked the lives of children who come from sharply different ends of the British class spectrum. He started when they were seven year old and revisited them every seven years until now. With his latest edition called "56 Up."
Among the children featured are posh boys, John, Andrew and Charles.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I read the "Financial Times."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I read "The Observer" and "The Times."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you like about it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I like -- I usually look at the headlines and then read about them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Out of the mouths of babes.
And here's Tony, from the rough-and-tumble streets of London's East End, talking about his future and growing up before our very eyes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY: I want to be a jockey when I grow up. Yes, I want to be a jockey when I grow up.
MICHAEL APTED, FILM DIRECTOR (voice-over): At 14, he was already an apprentice at Tommy Gozardin's (ph) racing stable at Epson.
TONY: Well, I want to do (inaudible). (Inaudible) time to become a jockey. I wasn't good enough. (Inaudible) that.
APTED (voice-over): At 21, he was on the knowledge. And by 28, he owns his own cab.
TONY: As you can see, Michael, the (inaudible) a kid (inaudible). And now it's changed quite dramatically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The latest edition of "Up" has been released here in the United States. And I spoke to Michael Apted about what keeps him and this project going.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Michael Apted, thank you for joining me.
You were 22 when you were given this task as a researcher to go out and select these people.
How did you know? I mean, 22, what were you thinking when you went out to find these characters?
APTED: Well, I knew very well about the English class system. What's interesting to me is that I wasn't particularly interested in the personalities or that we didn't have time to do that. You know, we just had to get on with the job.
And they've all turned out great, you know, which makes me think that everybody's got a story to tell.
If I was going to do it now, I'm sure I'd vet them; I'd audition them. I'd go through the whole thing. But these people just came forward at this time, and they're incredibly interesting.
AMANPOUR: And it was raw.
APTED: Completely raw.
AMANPOUR: So, as you say, everybody has a story to tell.
We want to focus first on a young boy called Neil. And of course, you started this when these children were 7 years old. Neil was from Liverpool, is from Liverpool, and really one of the cutest kids in the whole program.
Let's listen to what he said when he was a child of 7 and then when he was much older.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEIL: When I get married I don't want to have any children because they are always doing naughty things and making the whole house untidy.
I always told myself that I wouldn't ever have children.
APTED: Why?
NEIL: Because -- because -- well, because children inherit something from their parents and even if my wife were the most high-spirited and ordinary and normal of people, the child would still stand a very fair chance of being not totally full of happiness, because of what he or she will have inherited from me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: That is so honest and so sad and he had talked about his nervous situation.
Tell me a little bit about Neil.
APTED: Well, he was the roller coaster in the series. I mean, you see when he was 7, you wanted to take him home, didn't you? And then when he was 21, he was working on a building site. And when he was 28, we wondered whether we'd ever see him again.
AMANPOUR: He was homeless, wandering.
APTED: That's right, and seemed in total disarray. I mean, there is a medical issue with him, but he's always refused to confront that. And you know -- but again, because of the miracle of life, as it will ever, when he became 42, he changed again and sort of restored himself. So he's been a real roller coaster for us.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: And now he's a church deacon; he's also a local politician in his -- in his neighborhood in northwest England.
Well, before we get to another character -- Suzy I want to get to in a second. But let me ask you about that.
You're not just a documentarian as everyone knows. You're a very acclaimed and accomplished filmmaker -- "Coal Miner's Daughter," "Gorillas in the Mist," James Bond, "The World is Not Enough," et cetera, et cetera.
What were you to these people?
Were you -- you say you weren't judging them. Were you their confessor?
Were you their therapist?
What were you to these people?
APTED: Well, I think they would call me a therapist. But, again, it's interesting, because it changes the whole time. I'm 15 years older than them. And for the first three or four films, that's an abyss of time.
But as we got older, you know, we became collegial. And by now, you know, we're equals as it were.
So our relationship has changed; the dynamic in the interviews has changed. It's got much more intimate, much more emotional and whatever. So you know, like life, the whole series is a very fast-moving thing.
AMANPOUR: I want to play a little clip of Suzy, from when she was 7 and then -- and then growing up.
You had asked her about marriage and about having children.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
APTED: Tell me, do you have any boyfriends, Suzy?
SUZY: Yes.
APTED: What do -- what is your attitude towards marriage for yourself?
SUZY: Well, I don't know. I haven't given it a lot of thought, because I'm very, very cynical about it.
APTED: When I last saw you at 21, you were nervous; you were chain smoking. You were uptight. And now you seem happy.
What's happened to you over these last 7 years?
SUZY: I suppose Rupert (ph). I'll give you some credit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So she is a happy girl now. She's got children. She says that she's glad she devoted her life to her children. She was cynical because her own parents broke up.
What do you think of Suzy today?
APTED: I think she's wonderful. And it's been a real pressure on me to try and keep her in the film, because she never liked doing it. And she's very difficult to interview. And then she formed a kind of email relationship with one -- with Nick, one of the others in it.
And they presented me with the notion that she said she would do it, but she wanted to do it with Nick. And I thought, oh, my God. Maybe I'll mess up both of them now.
But I let them do it. I had no choice, because, you know, as the series has got older, more mature, you know, they own it more. And to me, that's great. So they tell me what they want to do rather than me telling them and since it's about them, that's good.
AMANPOUR: Well, let's play this clip of Suzy actually saying why she doesn't like it.
(LAUGHTER)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUZY: I don't know what happened. I was quite adamant I wasn't going to do it. And then.
I don't know. I supposed I have this ridiculous sense of loyalty to it, even though -- even though I hate it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Why did she hate it?
And why did Nick hate it as well?
APTED: For different reasons. I think she's a very shy woman. And there is a celebrity attached to it especially -- I mean, she lives in a small village in the countryside and all that sort of stuff. So, you know, it's kind of -- she's -- the beam of light is on her.
So she was just nervous about it. But she's incredibly valuable in the film, because she -- you know, she's a middle class girl; the rest of the women tend to be working class girls. So she's very valuable to me.
But I think Nick had a more conceptual issue with it, which he's correct. I mean, how can it possibly sound like -- showing these people's lives with any sense of reality, when they have anything between 8 and 18 minutes every seven years?
You know, but he had the idea -- which he expressed in "56" -- that it's more symbolic. It's more iconic than a detailed look at people's lives. But it does stand for something. It does mean something.
AMANPOUR: It's a mirror, some people have said. And he says it's actually not just about our life, but it's about everyone's lives. And certainly watching it, you can really connect with these characters and what they're saying.
But you know, again, going back to why some of them didn't like it; a lot of them did, of course. Some of the critics, most of them, have said this is the best documentary we've ever seen; it's brilliant filmmaking. And others have said this is ethically troubling.
Do you feel you were manipulative?
Do you feel ethically troubled by it?
Do you feel you were using these people?
APTED: Well, not particularly. I mean, I let them air this on the film. I'm transparent about that, that people say, well, this is just your vision; you've cut it this way. You haven't used this; you haven't used that. Well, I mean, that's any piece of work. It's what we're doing now. You're going to use some of it; you'll use other bits of it. So someone has to make the choice.
And I think it comes down to trust, for all the badgerings of other people and sometimes their reservations, they have all come back. They've all stayed with me. They don't have to stay on it. And the program survives. And I think they see the value of it. They see that it's not meretricious. They see there's something in it. And I think there's a loyalty between all of us and a trust between all of us.
And I think it gives us all a certain pride in what we do.
And so I think the accusations, you know, that I'm manipulating and whatever, you know, is, you know, seems to me to be a bit mealy-mouthed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And after a break, we'll learn more about what Michael Apted wishes he had done differently and why the "Up" series has also been so successful here in the U.S. That's when we return.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. And more from the unique British filmmaker Michael Apted, whose magic series "Up" has been celebrated along with his blockbusters in Hollywood.
He is, of course, best known for that master work which chronicles life's happenings, its happiness and its heartache through the eyes of British children from the age of 7 all the way on up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We brought these children together because we wanted a glimpse of England in the year 2000.
A shop steward and the executive of the year 2000 are now 7 years old.
Give me a child until he is 7 and I will give you the man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, that was nearly half a century ago. And what began as a unique exploration of Britain's class system continues to this day with the latest edition, "56 Up."
In part two of our conversation about this groundbreaking work, I learned what Apted would have done differently and how he accounts for this very British work finding such enormous success right here in the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Was this meant to be a series?
Or was it a one-off?
APTED: No, it was a one-off. It was just a quick snapshot of England in 1963-64 to see whether the English class system was alive and well, because culturally all sorts of things happening: The Beatles, the Rolling Stones.
There was this, in fact, permeating into our social system. So we just chose people from different backgrounds, had them talk rather than get professionals in to discuss it.
And out of the mouths of babes came these truths, you know. It was both chilling and funny at the same time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
APTED: What do you think about rich people?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, not much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four children (inaudible) --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- themselves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, they don't.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But rich children boast about themselves and say how clever I am (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a fact?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, but then rich children always make fun of poor children, I think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes. They say, oh, look at that lovely little sissy over there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And they throw things at them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The poor child gets scared to death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I wonder whether some of these stories made you sad, because when they were 7, even those from the lower classes had aspirations. And so many of them have said I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to change things. I wanted to, you know, make my mark on life.
Do you think they did?
APTED: Well, it's an important question and a lesson, a hard lesson I had to learn, that I can't project my particular anxieties, my particular dreams, my visions of the world on them. You know, I've concentrated on having a career and, you know, doing well. And that's not all there is in life.
And I think when you look at "56", you see that people who've invested a lot of time and energy into their families have got a big payback. So it's something I had to learn, is that I have my life; I have my values. But they are not necessarily, you know, of any more value to anybody else than me. So I've tried not to be judgmental with them.
AMANPOUR: You said, "If I'd done it 10 years later," or several years later, you might have done things differently.
I notice you have very few women in the film.
APTED: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You have only one black boy in the film.
APTED: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Did you miss the race and the different sort of -- sort of immigrant class?
Did you miss the rise of women?
APTED: I missed it gangbusters. And to me it's the most important thing of my life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have this teacher at school that his favorite ploy was, "All you girls want to do is (inaudible), get married, have babies and push a pram down the street with (inaudible) your mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But we only had a limited choice anyway. I mean, truth be told, I mean, we didn't have the choice of a private education because (inaudible) afford it anyway.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've got to say it, girls, I wanted to work (inaudible).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
APTED: When it started in '63, it was one program. It was a portrait of England in 1963-64. And it was unconscionable that a woman might be prime minister less than two decades later.
And you know, the ethnic composition of the United Kingdom was very, very slight in those days.
So unfortunately, it was an accurate picture of England then, but had we been sat there, figure, oh, we're going to go on with our lives and do this for my whole career, then I could -- I could be held to blame for not having enough women. But I missed a big story.
AMANPOUR: Will you continue doing this? I mean, look, amazingly, nobody's died. And you have had really only one major defection. You've kept this group together.
How many more? Now it's "56".
How many more can you do?
APTED: Well, my slick answer is when we do "84", I'll be 99. And that'll be OK.
Well, I always -- I just have two -- always I've said I'll stop it for two reasons. One is enough of them pull out, that it loses that wonderful group sense, or people don't want to watch it anymore. And neither of those have happened. So I feel, you know, I feel I have the right to go on with it.
AMANPOUR: Of all the characters you've met and you've documented now for half a century, who makes you the happiest and who makes you the saddest?
APTED: Oh, I can't answer that. I mean, they're my children, in a way, you know? I mean, obviously I have a certain, as it were, with Nick because we both left England; we both came to America to build new careers and we both paid a price for that.
AMANPOUR: Nick, of course, was a science guru, a science teacher, and he wanted to be a scientist and that's why he came to the United States.
APTED: His story is something very personal to me. But all their issues are personal because there comes a point when I'm the audience, you know, I've made the film and then I look at the film and I listen to their answers about parenting, about marriage, about ambition, and I reflect on my life. And I think, well, what choices have I made? How have I run my life?
So I become as much an audience as anybody else would have. But I wouldn't want to, in fact, you know, say I like this one. We are a kind of family, in a way, you know. We -- some of us get on well; some of us don't get on well. I see a lot of some of them between times. Some of them I never see except that once every seven years. So it's very complicated.
AMANPOUR: You say you paid a price.
What price did you pay?
APTED: I feel, you know, in our business, you know, you pay a price. You can't have everything. And, you know, I sacrificed family life to build a career. And you know, I paid a price for it, whether I do it differently next time 'round, if you know what I mean. I don't know. But I don't think everybody can have everything.
AMANPOUR: What did you set out to accomplish or achieve?
And do you think you've done it?
APTED: All I wanted in my mature years on the film, all I wanted to achieve was to keep it going, because each film to me is a surprise.
I wouldn't have thought "56" would have turned out like it had. So I think that's the achievement and that's the aim, just to keep it going, not to preempt it, not to guess, not to play God, but just to try and present these people with their state of mind every seven years. And I think that's my only aim.
AMANPOUR: Michael Apted, congratulations.
APTED: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And after a break, another remarkable real-life story captured on film, the superstar who never was, when we return.
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AMANPOUR: Michael Apted's series, as we've seen, follows the extraordinary lives of ordinary people. Now imagine a world where a movie uncovered a forgotten superstar.
We featured a few of the documentaries that were nominated for this year's Academy Awards because of the important stories that they tell about the real world that we all live in.
Two of them, "The Gatekeepers" and "Five Broken Cameras" focus on the ongoing war and tragedy between Israel and the Palestinians.
One, called "The Invisible War," documents rape in the United States military, an ongoing crisis and controversy.
And the Oscar winner for the best documentary this year is set against the apartheid era of South Africa. It tells how one man's music helped bring down those walls even though he never end knew it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): "Searching For Sugar Man" begins far from Cape Town in Detroit, Michigan, in the 1960s, when an obscure singer-songwriter named Rodriguez made an album called "Cold Fact." The critics liked it, but the album bombed and that, or so it seemed, was the end of Rodriguez. But in fact, that's where the plot began to thicken.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's sort of a bit of a mystery how the first copy of "Cold Fact" actually came to South Africa. But it spread very quickly. To many of us South Africans, he was the soundtrack to our lives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody knew his records. The message it had was "be anti-establishment." Really the first opposition to apartheid, they'll tell you that they were influenced by Rodriguez. But nobody knew anything about him. He was a mystery.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): That mystery and his popularity was fueled by the legend that Rodriguez had killed himself onstage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people have different versions of the story. He set himself a lot on stage. He reached down and pulled up a gun. I thought it would make a good story, find out how Rodriguez died.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): The filmmaker set out to solve this mystery. The search led back to Michigan to Sugar Man, as Rodriguez came to be called. Very much alive, but completely unaware that in South Africa he was bigger than Elvis.
Now this remarkable film has resurrected the man and his music, much like the Rainbow Nation itself. And today, Rodriguez is back on stage in South Africa and around the world, inspiring audiences with his story.
RODRIGUEZ: Thanks for keeping me alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Alive and an amazing career reborn. And that's it for tonight's special edition of our program. Meantime, you can always contact us on our website, amanpour.com. Thanks for watching and goodbye from New York.
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