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CNN NEWSROOM

Stand Your Ground Scrutinized

Aired July 17, 2013 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, thank you. Good to see all of you. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Let's get right to it this afternoon.

Florida's controversial Stand Your Ground law is really being looked at closely. It's being scrutinized here in the wake of that George Zimmerman verdict. Right now, look at this, pint-size and adult demonstrators protesting. This is inside the capitol of Florida. What do they want? They want Stand Your Ground, that law, repealed. That law allows a person to use deadly force if he or she feels great danger with no obligation to retreat. In fact, we just learned today the musician Stevie Wonder says he will be boycotting the entire state of Florida. Won't be playing a gig down there until Stand Your Ground is repealed.

Also, the NRA, the National Rifle Association, is slamming Attorney General Eric Holder for his comments just yesterday afternoon condemning the Stand Your Ground laws. The NRA says Holder is using the Zimmerman case for political gain.

A quick reminder here for everyone. Zimmerman's legal team actually did not invoke Stand Your Ground as part of his defense, but Florida's Stand Your Ground law did impact the judge's instructions to the jury, as we learned from that exclusive interview with B57 - B37, forgive me, when she sat down and spoke with Anderson Cooper.

Let me take you straight to Tallahassee, Florida, to our correspondent there, Victor Blackwell, because he is near that capitol.

Victor, you've talked with demonstrators. What do they want specifically?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They want the governor to reconvene the state legislature, call a special session, and they want him to pass or sign what they pass eventually, the Trayvon Martin Act. You know, that waiting area just outside the governor's office, typically where business leaders and members of the legislature wait to speak with the governor, has been taken over by political activists. They're members of a group called dream defenders. Most of them college students. They say they will not leave until Governor Scott meets with them and calls the legislature back to deal with Stand Your Ground laws, zero tolerance policies in schools and also racial profiling across the state. And they have some support here in Tallahassee. I want you to listen first to the legislative director of the group and then a member of the state house here in Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) AHMAD ABUZNAID, LEGAL DIRECTOR, DREAM DEFENDERS: We'd like the repeal of Stand Your Ground or some type of modification where we can hold people responsible to a level that, you know, humanity expects, where we don't have 17-year-olds getting gunned down with no justice being provided for them and their families.

STATE REP. ALAN WILLIAMS (D), FLORIDA: I believe that, you know, pressure busts pipes. And I believe that these students are bringing the appropriate amount of passion and concern to a cause that hopefully will put pressure on the entire system to say, we must do something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: That was Representative Alan Williams who represents Florida's District 8. He introduced a bill in the last session to overturn Stand Your Ground. He just wants his bill to be heard.

Now, the governor's office says that this issue has been dealt with. I want to read for you a statement released by Governor Scott's office. And here it is. "Immediately following Trayvon Martin's death, Governor Scott called the bipartisan special task force with 19 citizens to review Florida's Stand Your Ground law. This task force listened to Floridians across the state and heard their viewpoints and expert opinions on this law. The task force recommended that the law should not be overturned and Governor Scott agrees."

Now, Governor Scott is not at the capital today. He has been traveling in Panama City and Pensacola. We asked his office when he would be back. That information has not yet come in. They say they will stay there until they get that meeting.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: So, Victor, let me just ask you a quick question about that because you talked about the panel that Governor Scott had convened, basically saying that, you know, Stand Your Ground does not need to be overturned. But there was some criticism with regard to the individuals who were selected to be a part of that panel, correct?

BLACKWELL: That's right. And that's one thing that Representative Williams pointed out. He said that the legislators who were part of that 19-member group were the people who supported passing it and voted for it. And some of the people who were possibly on the other side of the table were not people who had any legislative power and could make much happen inside the halls of the capital here. So the group Dream Defenders also says that, in short, if this is the law here in Florida, Florida needs to be checked. And he includes the legislators in that number.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: Victor Blackwell for us at the capital of Florida, there in Tallahassee. Victor, thank you so much.

If you read "The Tampa Bay Times" today, they say the Stand Your Ground law often amounts to, and I'm quoting this article here, "a get out of jail free card" for many defendants who invoke Stand Your Ground as a defense. So it says, as of 2012, 68 percent of defendants go free, 66 percent of black defendants go free, 61 percent of white defendants go free, 16 percent conviction rate in jury trials.

I want to talk about this now with criminal defense attorney Eric Johnson, who joins me. We're going to bring another voice in here momentarily.

But, Eric, welcome to you.

ERIC JOHNSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hello. Welcome.

BALDWIN: Thank you. Let's just begin with Stand Your Ground law in and of itself. Who does this law help?

JOHNSON: Well, the purpose of the law is to protect people from feeling victimized by criminals who might seek to do them harm. However, the application of the law is what seems to be causing the problem and a lot of the issues in Florida.

BALDWIN: The issue, from what I can understand, you can see it two- fold, right? So if somebody is, let's say, somebody is trying to burglarize my home, comes in my home, is armed, I want to protect my home. I feel threatened. I can respond with deadly force. But there is a specific difference here with Stand Your Ground in that if I initiate that back and forth and I still then feel that I'm threatened, I can, as well, then use deadly force, correct?

JOHNSON: Well, no, not necessarily, and that was one of the issues with this case as far as the determination of who's the aggressor.

BALDWIN: Because he got out of his car?

JOHNSON: Well, that in and of itself does not make him the aggressor. The aggressor is with regards to the physical confrontation. It's OK to get into a verbal altercation with someone that does not rise to the level of physicality. However, if you are the one who initially begins the physical confrontation, then you cannot rely on the Stand Your Ground laws.

BALDWIN: Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor, I want to bring you in here as well because is the rush of the Stand Your Ground laws, and I know we keep talking about Florida only because of what happened in Sanford, but, you know, there is this law in 22 different states. Is this a response to the fact that there are more and more guns out there in this country?

WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know, that's a good question. I suppose part of the desire to enact these laws is related to concerns about increased use of guns and violence, especially home invasions and so forth.

But let me just toss out an idea about why I like Stand Your Ground law.

BALDWIN: Yes.

MURPHY: You know I represent mostly victimized women and children as an area of expertise of mine. The law actually creates a bit of equality in terms of force for, say, a woman or child who's being sexually violated. They have no hope of meeting force with equal force, which is what's the law in lots of states that don't have Stand Your Ground. So when you -- when you pass a law that says that victim may well have a weapon and have a right to use it, you actually get more restraint on the part of sex offenders. I like that piece of Stand Your Ground. I do think this is an example of what I would call --

BALDWIN: But it's a piece. Right, it is a - it's a piece.

MURPHY: It is a piece. And I think --

BALDWIN: Go ahead.

MURPHY: Yes. But I was going to say, you know, this is a bit of an unanticipated negative consequence of Stand Your Ground in the sense that just because you have a right to use lethal force doesn't make it a good idea. Doesn't mean you should. I mean, to me, George Zimmerman could have done something less than lethal force to defend himself. And that's really the sticky point, I think, when we talk about these laws in a social policy sense.

BALDWIN: So I think what I'm hearing is that there are good parts of the law. There are seemingly bad parts of the law. Where do we go from here? As I mentioned, 22 states have Stand Your Ground, Eric. People, as I said, are boycotting the state of Florida because of this Stand Your Ground law. What do we do? What do we learn from this?

JOHNSON: Well, I think that we need some further clarification as to when the Stand Your Ground law would actually apply. No one would think that there were -- everyone agrees that Stand Your Ground should apply to your home and your domicile. However, when you're outside in the public, then I think that the law needs to be specifically tailored to accommodate those situations similar to George Zimmerman.

BALDWIN: Wendy, final thoughts. You agree?

MURPHY: I think what we need to talk about is whether the laws can be adjusted to incentivize people who are sincerely acting in self- defense not to use lethal force if there's an alternative. And I think George Zimmerman had an alternative.

BALDWIN: Eric Johnson and Wendy Murphy, do me a favor, please stick around. I want to continue this conversation. Actually, we'll play a little bit more from that exclusive interview that Anderson Cooper had, that sit down interview with juror B37 and I want to get your response to some of the additional information we now have heard from her, this mother of two grown children.

Jurors in George Zimmerman's trial were united in their verdict, but now they stand somewhat divided here in the aftermath because four of the six jurors have issued this statement saying this, that the opinions that juror B37 expressed in that exclusive CNN interview are precisely that, her opinions and not representative of the others.

Meanwhile, that juror that we've heard from, B37, has released this statement about her one on one with Anderson Cooper. Quote, "thank you for the opportunity to vent some of the anguish which has been in me since the trial began. For reasons of my own, I need to speak alone. My prayers are with all of those who have the influence and power to modify the laws that left me with no verdict option other than not guilty in order to remain within the instructions. No other family should be forced to endure what the Martin family has endured."

She did stress that she is not writing a book on the experience of being a juror, at least at this particular time. But we are not finished hearing her side of what happened in that jury room. She has a lot to say. So much, in fact, that we are dedicating much of this hour to more of her exclusive interview with CNN. So let's begin. Here's Anderson Cooper.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, CNN'S "AC 360": Did you cry in that jury room?

JUROR B37: I cried after the verdict. I didn't cry out when they were reading the verdict out in the jury room, because we were all crying before we went in. And then --

COOPER: What do you mean you were crying before you went in?

JUROR B37: Well, we were in a separate room when -- when the foreman handed the bailiff our verdict. And then we were crying back there before we went into the jury room. So they gave us about 20 minutes to try and get everything together.

COOPER: What do you think you were crying about?

JUROR B37: The pressure. The pressure of all of it. And everything just kind of came to a head. Because I kind of tried to keep everything out, emotionally out during the whole process and then it just flooded in after it was done.

COOPER: But you want people to know, and the reason you're speaking is, you want people to know how seriously you took this.

JUROR B37: I do. I don't want people to think that we didn't think about it and we didn't care about Trayvon Martin. Because we did. We were very sad that it happened to him.

COOPER: And you want his family to know that as well?

JUROR B37: I do. And I feel bad that we can't give them the verdict that they wanted. But legally we could not do that.

COOPER: Do you think Trayvon Martin played a role in his own death? That this wasn't just something that happened to him, this is something he also --

JUROR B37: Oh, I believe he played a huge role in his death. He could - he could have -- when George confronted him and -- he could have walked away and gone home. He didn't have to do whatever he did and come back and be in a fight.

COOPER: And the other jurors felt that as well?

JUROR B37: They did. I mean, as far as I -- my perspective of it, they did.

COOPER: So you think, based on the testimony you heard, you believe that Trayvon Martin was the aggressor?

JUROR B37: I think the roles changed. I think - I think George got in a little bit too deep, which he shouldn't have been there, but Trayvon decided that he wasn't going to let him scare him and get the one over up on him or something. And I think Trayvon got mad and attacked him.

COOPER: You call George Zimmerman George. Do you feel like you know him?

JUROR B37: I do. I feel like I know everybody.

COOPER: You called Trayvon Trayvon as well.

JUROR B37: I did. Trayvon wasn't as well known by us because there wasn't much -- as much said about him. All we really heard about Trayvon was the phone call that he had and the evidence they had found on him. We basically had no information what kind of a boy Trayvon was, what he did. We knew where he went to school and that was pretty much about it, and he lived in Miami.

COOPER: What would you say to Trayvon Martin's parents, to Tracy and Sybrina?

JUROR B37: I would say I'm terribly sorry for your loss. It's a tragedy. That's pretty much all I can say. Because I don't -- you know, I didn't know him, but I felt their pain because of his death.

COOPER: What do you hope for, for George Zimmerman now?

JUROR B37: I hope he gets some peace, because I'm sure he's going to be onslaught by media for months at a time. I hope his family can live a normal life after a while. I don't know how he's ever going to do that. But I hope he can. He'll never forget, but I hope he can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Coming up next, hear what that juror says that this entire jury of six women thought of the pictures of George Zimmerman's injuries. The answer might surprise you. Stay with me.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: There were 16 hours of deliberations before George Zimmerman heard the jury return its not guilty verdict. And according to Juror B37, one of her fellow jurors struggled to come to the decision that the others had reached, that George Zimmerman may have done some things wrong but none of his actions actually broke the law. Here now more of Anderson Cooper's interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Do you have any doubt that George Zimmerman feared for his life?

JUROR B37: I had no doubt George feared for his life and the situation he was in at the time.

COOPER: So when the - when the prosecution, in their closing argument is holding up the Skittles and holding up the can of iced tea and saying, this is what Trayvon Martin was armed with, this is a kid who had Skittles and iced tea, you felt George Zimmerman -- did you find that compelling at all or did you find Mark O'Mara with the concrete block compelling? Or do you --

JUROR B37: Well, Mark with the concrete block, definitely. It's just the Skittles and the Arizona can was -- were ridiculous to even put it up and compare the two. I mean anybody can be armed with anything. You could bash somebody's head against a tree or a rock or this concrete.

COOPER: So you believe that Trayvon Martin was slamming George Zimmerman's head against the concrete without a doubt?

JUROR B37: I believe he hit his head on the concrete. I think he was probably trying to slam it. I don't know how hard George's head hit on the concrete. It hit enough to get damage, bruising, swelling. I think it's -- you know, it was definitely enough to make you fear when you're in that situation.

COOPER: And the photos of George Zimmerman, the photos of his injuries, to you those were all -- were those something you also looked at in the jury room at the end?

JUROR B37: We did. We did. We did all the -- that kind of evidence first. And then we listened to all the tapes afterwards.

COOPER: And that was important to you because that also made you believe George Zimmerman was legitimate in fearing for his life?

JUROR B37: I believed it. I believe because of his injuries.

COOPER: Can you talk about the process of the other jurors changing their minds? I mean you talked about the first juror went from second- degree murder to manslaughter. Then you put out the question to the judge for manslaughter. And then it was basically because of the jury's reading of the law that everybody finally decided manslaughter doesn't hold?

JUROR B37: That's exactly why. COOPER: Was there any holdout?

JUROR B37: There was a holdout. And probably -- well, we had another vote. And then everybody voted, put it in a little tin. We had a little tin. Folded our little papers and put it in a vote. And she was the last one to vote. And it took probably another 30 minutes for her to decide that she could not find anything else to hold George on because you want to find him guilty of something. She wanted to find him guilty of something, but couldn't because of the law. The way the law is written. He wasn't responsible for negligible things that he had done leading up to that point.

COOPER: Did you also want to find him guilty of something?

JUROR B37: I wanted to find him guilty of not using his senses. But you can't fault anybody - I mean you can't charge anybody for not being, I guess -- I don't know. You can't fault him -- you can't fault -- you can't charge him with anything, because he didn't do anything unlawful.

COOPER: You're saying he overreacted or maybe was too eager, made bad choices, but it wasn't against the law?

JUROR B37: Exactly. That's exactly what happened.

COOPER: You're saying maybe it wasn't right -- it wasn't right getting out of that car, but it wasn't against the law?

JUROR B37: Exactly. He started the ball rolling. He could have avoided the whole situation by staying in the car. But he wanted to do good. I think he had good in his heart. He just went overboard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Coming up next, more from Juror B37, including what she thought when Trayvon Martin's mother took the stand and whether she thought any of the witnesses actually lied while testifying. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Well, we now know what she thought of the trial, but what does Juror B37 think about all that has happened since then? The protests. Talk of federal charges. And how the verdict she helped decide has reignited the race debate in America. Here again, Anderson Cooper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: When the defense, in their closing argument, played that animation of -- of what they believe happened, did you find that credible?

JUROR B37: I found it credible. I did.

COOPER: Do you think that's what actually happened? Because in that animation, Trayvon Martin throws the first punch.

JUROR B37: I think there were maybe some other issues and stuff leading between that, like what exactly -- where George went exactly and where Trayvon went exactly, because nobody knows where the two of them came - you know, went to, but they both met in the back. And I think that's where it started. COOPER: What did you think of the testimony of Trayvon Martin's mother and father? Do you find them credible?

JUROR B37: I think they -- they said anything a mother and father would say. Just like George Zimmerman's mom and father. I think, they're your kids. You want to believe that they're innocent and that was their voice, because hearing that voice would make it credible that they were the victim, not the aggressor.

COOPER: So, in a way, both sets of parents kind of canceled each other out in your mind?

JUROR B37: They did. Definitely.

COOPER: Was that true for the other jurors as well? They felt those testimonies kind of canceled each other out.

JUROR B37: I can't speak for the other jurors, but I believe with the feelings and the indications that they also -- testimonies just kind of canceled each other out.

COOPER: Do you think any of the witnesses lied?

JUROR B37: I can't think of any witnesses that lied. I really can't pick out any that lied. I think some might have heard things that weren't there because of their perspective, the stress. Like when somebody is stressed from hearing a gunshot, people react differently. And so people -- you ask 10 different people 10 different things and you get 10 different answers.

COOPER: The prosecution didn't use the word "racial profiling" during the case. They used the word "profiling." And that was something that was worked out between the judge and the lawyers when the jury wasn't in the rooms.

JUROR B37: Right.

COOPER: Do you feel that George Zimmerman racially profiled Trayvon Martin? Do you think race played a role in his decision, his view of Trayvon Martin as suspicious?

JUROR B37: I don't think he did. I think just circumstances caused George to think that he might be a robber or trying to do something bad in the neighborhood, because of all that had gone on previously. There were - there were unbelievable number of robberies in the neighborhood.

COOPER: There's talk of the Justice Department perhaps filing civil rights violation charges against George Zimmerman. Do you think George Zimmerman violated Trayvon Martin's civil rights?

JUROR B37: I don't think he did. I don't think he did at all. I don't think he profiled him as a racial thing. I think he profiled him just as somebody in the neighborhood that was suspicious.

COOPER: So when he said "these f'ing punks, they always get away with it," he wasn't referencing race, he was referencing young people who had broken in --

JUROR B37: I think he was referencing frustration because of everything that had been happening in the neighborhood. I think he was - he was down to the point where he wanted -- he wanted somebody to take -- you know, get blamed and get caught so maybe some of this would stop.

COOPER: And, as you know, there have been demonstrations in a lot of cities the last day or so. I don't know if you've seen some of the images of them. There are people holding up signs saying that African- American males are unsafe on the streets, or that, you know, one columnist who was on my program last night said -- who's African- American said that he had to have that conversation with his sons about what speed is it OK for them to walk. You know, too slow is suspicious. Too fast is suspicious as well. Do you think any of that is -- do you understand what that is, where that comes from, or do you think race had nothing to do with this and therefore this doesn't say anything about African-Americans in this country?

JUROR B37: Well, I don't think race had anything to do with this trial. I mean just because he was black, I mean George was Spanish or Puerto Rican. I don't think it had anything to do with this trial. But I think people are looking for things to make race play a part in this trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Coming up next, this woman now responding to criticism from her fellow jurors. And she is addressing reports of a book deal. My panel weighs in right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)