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Jodi Arias Murder Case
Aired May 2, 2013 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, four months to the day, it all began. It is the moment of truth for Jodi Arias.
JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: No jury is going to convict me.
PINSKY: We`ll see about that.
Prosecutor Juan Martinez is pulling no punches.
JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: There was this stalking behavior from the very beginning. Even when she was young, she had this personality of manipulating the facts. This is an individual who wants to play victim. You could almost feel it oozing through those fake tears.
PINSKY: Did he seal the deal that could put Jodi Arias on death row?
Let`s get started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. We are getting down to the wire in the Jodi Arias case.
With me tonight, co-host Jenny Hutt from Sirius XM Radio.
Prosecutor Juan Martinez started his closing argument with biting sarcasm after savaging the last witness. Take a look at this tape.
MARTINEZ: That`s what you told us, right?
MARTINEZ: Go ahead and clean up please.
WITNESS: Sorry. I was doing so well.
MARTINEZ: What`s P.D.?
WITNESS: It stands for psychopathic --
MARTINEZ: You keep reading something. Aren`t you an expert on this thing?
WITNESS: I was just following, I couldn`t --
MARTINEZ: Why don`t you look at the screen if you don`t mind?
WITNESS: I can`t read the screen.
MARTINEZ: And in the light of truth, you can see who she really is. This is an individual who wants to play victim. It`s not her fault that any of this happened. Of course, none of it is her fault.
Can`t you all see, based on those days and days that she was on that witness stand that it isn`t her fault? It`s not her fault that this guy was trying to pick her up. And what`s a girl to do after all?
The guy that she was involved with up and died after she stabbed him. It`s not her fault that she has vision. So she starts looking in there.
There he is. He`s kissing another woman. She said I came in, and I stood by the door, and I watched him. And I watched him for 30, 45 seconds.
Who does that? Who comes in, stands there?
She has courted the media. She has gone on national television. She has signed a manifesto just in case she becomes famous.
PINSKY: Joining us to discuss, attorney Darren Kavinoky, host of the show "Deadly Sins", Lisa Bloom, legal adviser with Avo.com, and the man who once dated Jodi Arias, Abe Abdelhadi.
I also have "In Session" correspondent, Beth Karas. She has been covering the trial.
Beth, Juan got Jodi to give us one of her self-tears, crying for herself tears. How was the jury reacting?
BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Well, let me tell you. First of all, Jodi Arias did appear to be crying. At least she was turning her head away when some very graphic, gruesome autopsy photos were being displayed.
And throughout his closing argument today, she had other things she was doing. She was shaking her head no, sometimes she was smirking -- maybe in the hopes that jurors would focus on her, disagreeing with things that the prosecutor was saying.
But I`ll tell you, Dr. Drew -- that jury was sitting up, focused, stoic, attentive on Juan Martinez. He stood there without notes, very confident, knows his material, hands in his pockets, periodically, he`d whisper. He`d raise his voice all for effect to get their attention. And he had their attention.
I don`t think Jodi Arias did.
PINSKY: Interesting. Yes, I saw her sort of almost -- she looked sedated to me. I got to tell you. I wondered if she was on more medication than usual today.
Thanks, Beth. I appreciate that report.
And Martinez repeatedly told the jury -- Jodi lied to you, the jury. As if to say not only did she lie to the investigators, commit this heinous act, but she`s even including you all, the jury, in her manipulations.
Lisa, is that a good tactic?
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: I think he was terrific today.
And you know what struck me, Dr. Drew? After all these months with all these salacious sexual allegations in this case, what this really boils down to, what he focused on today were some very unsexy but very important facts, that she got a rental car, that she took some gas cans, instead of taking her own car and stopping for gas like a normal person when she went to see him. Why? Because that shows premeditation.
Ultimately, if he gets his first degree conviction, and I think he will get it, it`s going to come down to the rental car and the gas cans.
PINSKY: Jenny, do you agree with Lisa?
JENNY HUTT, CO-HOST: I do. I agree completely. I think he connected the dots so beautifully, so calmly, so eloquently, so directed, he gave them exactly what they need to know and what they need to pay attention to.
It was linear. It just went where it was supposed to go. The craziest most heinous thing made perfect sense the way she executed it. It`s just sick the rage that this Jodi Arias makes me feel. I think it`s very unhealthy.
PINSKY: Darren, how about you?
DARREN KAVINOKY, ATTORNEY: Well, generally, I give him very high marks. And I`ve been somewhat critical of Juan Martinez during the life of though case for showing us one speed, one gear, and that being angry.
Today, he showed a range of emotions. And that told me not only did he feel like he had the jury going there with him, but he felt enough confidence that he could be more authentic to really reveal a wider range. And I was very impressed by that.
PINSKY: He seemed connected to the jury. Seemed much more measured. Subdued, personal, personable, which I didn`t know he had in him.
Abe, I want to go to you. You knew this woman. You had a date with this woman in Pasadena. Pasadena figured prominently today in terms of where she was going and, you know, why she went from A, B, C.
My question to you, did Juan get it right in a way which he portrayed Jodi to the jury? Is this the woman you knew?
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI: Absolutely. I mean, excuse me, we had the one date. We hung out a few months before. We were friends a good 18 months after. So I knew her pretty well.
The cantankerousness that she showed on the witness stand, and I think, honestly, one reason why Juan Martinez was so measured today was he didn`t have any idiot witnesses to talk to. So, there might have been that.
But, yes, she`s exactly how he pained her out to be. She`s smart. She`s not an idiot. She`s actually very aware of who she is and how she comes off to people. She`s a manipulator.
And so, he was able to paint that successfully I thought.
HUTT: And she`s also nasty. Did you see her laugh yesterday, Dr. Drew?
PINSKY: No, I didn`t see it. Tell me about that.
HUTT: She was giggling yesterday at one point. She actually started to giggle. And today, she giggled at one point.
Who chuckles when their closing statement for their murder trial, really?
PINSKY: I got to tell you, Jenny -- yes, I looked at it -- it was like she was at somebody else`s boring courtroom. It was really, I think she`s medicated. It`s the only thing that makes sense to me.
We had heard she had been on and off different medication. Reasonably so.
Now, some folks say the defense dragged this out. Now, the question is, did they hurt themselves if they did?
I want you to see this video from last night of Jodi. This caught my attention. She`s yawning, she`s fidgeting. She`s just like today. Today, she`s sort of like she didn`t care about.
What kind of signal does this send to the jury -- Lisa?
BLOOM: Yes, that`s not a good thing to do when a prosecutor`s delivering a closing argument in your capital murder case. You`re bored. Come on.
PINSKY: Isn`t it weird?
BLOOM: You know, I also think, by the way, that Juan Martinez -- keep in mind this is a majority male jury. He came across like a regular guy.
He speaks English, which is refreshing. Not legalese, not legal jargon in that courtroom. Every sentence out of his mouth was something we could all understand. He just talks to the jury like he`s one of them. I think that`s a very effective strategy.
PINSKY: Darren, you were taking issue with something I was just saying. Go ahead.
KAVINOKY: Yes. So, and I was on the "AFTER DARK" set last night until 3:00 in the morning Eastern Time as this thing dragged on. My issue is with the judge who allowed the lawyers to have free rein and go on and on and on during the life of the trial. And then, at the end of it, decides that now we`re going to get this thing done with a very late night.
And the concern is that that makes it an unlevel playing field. It opens it up for appellant challenges. It makes things different unnecessarily. There was no reason to get so intentional about finishing it on that time frame, just given how long this has gone.
So fundamentally, I think that that was a bad move.
PINSKY: All right. Maybe. Abe, we`re getting down to the wire here. You knew this woman. She literally -- my sense is, and, again, I`m going to ask you if you agree. That she still doesn`t believe a jury will convict her. She sort of believes her version of reality. And she`s putting it into the universe because it`s not going to happen because positive thoughts, you know, create positive outcomes.
HUTT: The law of attraction.
BLOOM: Good luck.
PINSKY: Right, Abe?
HUTT: Law of attraction.
ABDELHADI: Absolutely. She`s one of those -- she`s one of those people who give all that malarkey a bad name, frankly. I get the vibe and I get law of attraction and all that.
But you can`t jump off a building and decide you`re going to fly. You can`t wish for a million dollars without having done anything achievable that`s going to get that million just because you want it to come in your mailbox.
I think she`s in that category. I think she functionally lost her mind. And if she thinks she`s going to get out of this with this new lesbian lover of hers and, you know --
PINSKY: Is that for real?
ABDELHADI: and get pregnant -- she thinks she is -- I`ve read reports that she thinks she`s going to get off. She`s got a manifesto written. She`s going to sell it as a bestseller. It`s going to be made a major motion picture, with somebody else playing her.
And she`s out of her mind. And she`s completely convinced herself. I`m sorry?
PINSKY: The manifesto, who would buy it. She`s convinced herself what? Abe?
ABDELHADI: I`ve got -- I would not buy it, but I`ve gotten tons of inboxes on my Facebook, talking about her innocence. So, there`s a lot of idiots out there that will buy it. All you need is 10 million to sell it and then you`re good.
PINSKY: All right. Well, here, I`m just dying to know how somebody like this can write a manifesto. To me, it`s going to be so revealing. I`m just fascinated.
So, I would want to read it just for that. Just out of the sheer, like disbelief.
BLOOM: You`re the only one, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: I don`t want to pay for it. I don`t want her to benefit from it. Don`t get me wrong. I`m just fascinated by the fact -- I know this woman thinks a manifesto is appropriate.
A reminder: "HLN AFTER DARK" airs right after our show. They`ve got another live two hour special in store for you.
Stay with us here at HLN. We will continue to analyze this trial and these closing arguments.
Next up, did Juan Martinez destroy Jodi`s battery defense. If so, is that the chance to save her life going with it?
And later, a woman whose daughter lived with Jodi, and for some reason, didn`t get into the investigation. It is very interesting, and it wasn`t pretty.
We`ll be back with that.
MARTINEZ: The thing that was noteworthy on January 22nd of 2008 was that he beat me. This is the time that I had my hand up. And this is the time that he came after me.
According to you, he kicked you, and he damaged your ring finger on the left hand, correct?
MARTINEZ: Show us how bent it is again, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was an argument about her being interested in two other men. When that happened, Mr. Alexander got very angry, and he threw down, straddled her and choked her. She lost consciousness and she woke up coughing.
JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What about somebody who makes a threat of feel my wrath when he`s already kicked her and broken her finger.
MARTINEZ: You don`t have a bent finger in exhibit 453. Do you?
ARIAS: My finger is bent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Travis was an amazing man. He was so good to his girlfriend. They have five years to find one woman that Travis (INAUDIBLE) they got nothing. Nothing.
MARTINEZ: Not only is there not any corroborating evidence to be presented. It`s to the contrary. She herself said it didn`t happen. But she wants you to go back and say, well, don`t look at what I wrote.
PINSKY: Juan Martinez today painting the picture of the behavior of this murderess.
It is time for the behavior bureau to take it all on. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt.
PINSKY: So, Jenny, was Jodi a battered woman? The answer could mean life and death for her.
PINSKY: You say no? How dare you?
HUTT: No, there`s no. Come on. First of all, there`s not a single person that they have found who came out of the woodwork to corroborate, to substantiate, to back up her story that he was abusive in any way to anyone other than to her.
The bent finger? Come on, Dr. Drew, in your whole medical career, has an abused woman ever presented with just a bent finger? I mean, seriously.
PINSKY: Listen, these women don`t drive 800 miles to spy on their boyfriend. They get locked in and sucked into these relationships. They can`t get themselves out of them.
By the way, this kind of a bent finger, I got one, too. It`s usually from a pulling not a kicking. I`m just saying. It`s all nonsense. It`s all lying. People are tired had hearing it.
But we`re going to chew on this a bit.
Joining us, Cheryl Arutt, forensic and clinical psychologist, human lie detector, Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to me," Samantha Schacher, social commentator and host of "Pop Trigger" on the Young Turks Network, and Abe Abdelhadi, who dated Jodi Arias and escaped with his life.
Now, the defense could not find a single ex-girlfriend that claims she was, not only that she was abused by Travis, couldn`t find anyone other than giving glowing reports about how nice he was, but he couldn`t commit.
Maybe some women out there, Jenny, maybe some women would like to kill guys who can`t commit. I`m saying it`s not justification for murder. Call me crazy. Just saying.
HUTT: I mean, yes, guys sometimes don`t want to commit. You don`t kill them.
PINSKY: My question -- you might want to, but you don`t do that. My question to Samantha is that someone is manipulative as Jodi, do you think it was diabolical, let`s say, that she used such hot button issues in her defense such as domestic violence and pedophilia?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: Of course. Listen. Jodi Arias, Dr. Drew, is a master manipulator. And Jodi Arias is lying, hoping to gain some sort of sympathy from the jury.
But the most offensive part to me of her battered woman defense is the fact that not only did you, Jodi Arias, brutally murder Travis Alexander, but now you continue to malign him. And how infuriating for all the women out there who really are domestic abuse victims.
PINSKY: Yes. It`s interesting. Janine, any clues today, when you watched Jodi`s body language or anybody else in the courtroom that stood out for you?
JANINE DRIVER, HUMAN LIE DETECTOR: Well, yes. A couple people, Dr. Drew. Number one, we saw, right out of the gate, we saw yawning, not only by her, but by her attorney, Willmott. They`re both yawning in court.
We saw fake sadness. We saw the lips go down, but we didn`t see those inner eyebrows pull together and up when we see that, we know it`s genuine sadness.
And not only that, there was a study done at Columbia University where they took 47 women, and they had half of them with bosses, in an office with windows, half in cubicles. And they had them lie. And the women that have the offices, the women in power, why incapable of feeling guilt when they stole a hundred dollars. There`s almost nothing there.
So why would we see any guilt with Jodi Arias? What was her power? Her sex appeal. Her beauty.
And literally, people like Jodi, people in power get off on lying. That`s why she`s laughing in court, giggling, shaking her head, being disrespectful.
But one other person I want to talk about, her dad. I don`t think you saw her dad. I think it`s her dad, right? Was her dad over on the left?
PINSKY: I don`t know. The older man, looks ill a little bit.
DRIVER: It looks like the guy in the interrogation room.
Well, he was sitting like this. He had his hand in a fist and his other hand over it. And I can only imagine the anxiety that the family must be going through. I mean, she represents part of his legacy. So we see stress and anxiety in her family, but we don`t see it in Jodi Arias.
PINSKY: Cheryl, I want to ask you, all this domestic violence stuff and the PTSD inventories, and PTSD being a defense, you know, again, she killed the guy. How bad does PTSD have, how bad does domestic violence have to be to trigger something like PTSD? And by the way, I don`t think the timeline is right for PTSD even the way the defense laid it out.
ABDELHADI: Drew, real quick. I`m sorry.
PINSKY: Go ahead. Abe first and then Cheryl. Abe, go
ADBELHADI: The PTSD was brought on by the murder. I`m sorry, go ahead.
PINSKY: Right, right. That`s right, if there was PTSD.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSYCHOLOGIST: Abe is right. Lisa Bloom, who is on the previous set, said it best at one point. She said, that`s kind of like saying I killed my parents, but have mercy on me because I`m an orphan. I`m quoting you, Lisa it was a great quote.
The thing about domestic violence is that`s about a pattern of coercive control. And it can be punctuated by violence or there can be more violence. But it`s about really getting somebody to completely constrict themselves and be under someone else`s control.
PINSKY: Hold on a second.
Cheryl, Cheryl, stop.
PINSKY: Hold on a second. So the jury is supposed to make a decision based on the evidence. Domestic violence is somebody being under somebody else`s control through manipulation. Hmm, who would that be in this relationship?
ARUTT: Wonder who that could sound like, right?
HUTT: She`s the abuser.
PINSKY: And, ultimately, there`s escalation by the victimizer, by the perpetrator to the point of extreme, extreme violence.
Abe, is that why you`re so freaked out, you feel as though you escaped with everything intact, as it were?
ABDELHADI: Well, yes. But, well, it could have been anything. But here`s the thing, too, understand. And this is the part that`s really driving me crazy. I want to make sure we understand that. The bent finger came from the fact that her hand slipped off the knife. It ran down the blade of the knife. And that`s how she cut her finger.
She said that to Detective Flores in her interrogation tape. It`s on YouTube. You can watch it for yourself.
So when the defense tomorrow comes on and tries to re-push all these lies back on to the jury, you`re going to hear my teeth break from grinding them. And them I`m going to throw up.
DRIVER: Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Yes, Janine. Now, we`ve got to finish it up. Go.
DRIVER: You know my story. I talked about when I was 24, I dated a prominent attorney who tried to kill me, in my eyes. He was pounding my chest.
But, you know what? After that happened to me, I found out he had been married three times before I dated him. I only knew about once. And he abused all three of those women.
So when it happened to me, all of a sudden people came out of the woodwork. Why is no one coming out of the woodwork that Travis Alexander was an abuser? Why?
HUTT: I want to say one more woman with a bent finger, OK, Dr. Drew, prove it.
ARUTT: Guys who do this keep doing this.
PINSKY: That is the point. The evidence, if you base it on the evidence, forget just common sense. Evidence is, it`s damning.
All right, guys, stay with me.
Next up, the Jodi stalker. That`s right. She`s stalking the man she once dated, but from jail? Abe Abdelhadi is back with that answer. It`s going to be interesting. I don`t know what that`s all about.
Later, one of Travis` friends was in the courtroom today. We`ll get his eyewitness account of exactly what he saw and what he heard.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SKY HUGHES, KNEW TRAVIS, KNOWS JODI: More than once, we`d have these conversations, and I was really, really hard on Travis. And I would tell him, you know, there`s just something not right. She`s obsessed with you.
You know, these behaviors are very frightening. And I said just stop talking to her. Just stop calling her. And he said, he said you don`t understand. She says she`s going to kill herself.
And I said, she`s not going to kill herself. And he said no, you can`t guarantee that, and I can`t live with myself, if she does.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Back with my behavior bureau and my co-host Jenny Hutt.
That was Sky Hughes. She was very close friend of Travis Alexander.
Jenny, she gave us some great insight. The suicide manipulation.
I want to read you guys a Twitter. This is from GraceH_patt (ph), Jodi Arias is so sure she`s not going to be convicted because she is going to kill herself.
Hmm. So suicide keeps coming up here. It came up for Skye.
Jenny, what do you think?
HUTT: Yes, I don`t think that Jodi would ever kill herself. I think that she`s far too precious. She who haves herself. I think people with such a high-level of self-esteem don`t kill themselves, suicide`s a tragic, awful, terrible, horrific thing.
But Jodi`s not -- she`s secure. She loves herself.
PINSKY: Well, I`m not sure -- it looks like -- Cheryl, I got to bring you in here. You gave that great analogy of boarder lines that are like jell-o that are looking for a mold to hold them together with an identity. When they are in a crisis, when they`re left to their own devices, they have a lot of self-loathing, don`t they?
ARUTT: They sure do. It`s like if you remove the jell-o mold, you try to pick it up. It falls apart in their hands. This is what happens with a borderline.
And even though a lot of people have board are line disorder threatened suicide a lot of the time for other reasons, this is the statistical facts. Someone with borderline personality is 400 to 800 times more likely to commit suicide in a general population.
PINSKY: OK. So, Jenny --
ARUTT: That`s a huge, huge difference.
PINSKY: Jenny, you get that?
HUTT: Yes. But I don`t believe that Jodi -- now I`m confused.
PINSKY: Let`s ask Abe. Abe, what do you think? You knew her.
ABDELHADI: There`s no way she`s going to kill herself. No way she`s going to kill herself.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough. I`m going to go to Samantha.
Samantha, you`ve been asked that question. And do you think this conversation -- do you think this conversation has elevated in any way the conversation about mental health? Or has it just driven it down into the mud?
SCHACHER: Well, for one, I actually agree with Jenny, because I would think that Jodi Arias -- she would have committed suicide, because Travis did express to her that he didn`t want a relationship with her. Instead, she decided to kill Travis Alexander, because if she can`t have Travis, nobody else can. Now as far as --
ABDELHADI: That`s not a suicidal person. She would have killed -- no. No. No. She would have killed herself.
ARUTT: That`s a homicidal person.
ABDELHADI: If she was serious -- yes. Absolutely. She would have killed herself before she would have killed Travis.
She was secure in herself, and she thought she was going to get away with it, which is why she had the hookup in Utah with Ryan Burns because she thought she had a whole new guy that takes Travis` place, the end. As simple as that.
PINSKY: It`s an interesting point. And let`s not forget though, real quick, that there was something that Travis was going to reveal about Jodi in that e-mail exchange that Sky believed led to her making a decision to go kill him.
Before we go -- I`m throwing that out there. But, Abe, I want to ask you this. I sort of teased before the break, something about she`s stalking you. Jodi`s stalking Abe.
Now, I heard she wants to be your friend on Facebook. Do you think she wants to know what you`re up to? Did you accept the friendship?
ABDELHADI: I did not accept the friendship. I had deleted her off of MySpace back in the day 100 years ago when we had MySpace. And I wasn`t on Facebook yet. So, when I got that request, I thought it was a little creepy. I thought it was probably one of her cronies.
PINSKY: A little creepy? A little creepy?
ABDELHADI: Hey, I`m guy. I`m not going to sit here running wolf over a Facebook request. But, yes, spooky, I mean, here she`s sitting here requesting me. And I don`t think by law she`s allowed to do that.
So, it had to be one of her army of minions running around, doing her bidding. She`s so pretty. I`m going to do what she asks me to do. I`ll request Abe on Facebook. That`s who he is. That`s where her friends are.
DRIVER: Doctor --
PINSKY: Janine, go.
DRIVER: She`s arrogant. She`s over the top. We see this with her laughing. When I was in court, she was very snarky, sarcastic, fresh. If my mother was in the courtroom and I was talking that way, my mother would have grabbed me by the cheeks and give me one of those dirty looks.
She`s so arrogant. It`s over the top. And I said these months ago, but I want to say, Juan Martinez was on fire! He was on fire today.
And he put her in her place, and she didn`t like it. The only time we saw a little bit of discomfort was when he was hitting it home and I just thought he was confident. He had a swagger. He was awesome. On fire.
PINSKY: Yes. Jenny, go.
HUTT: I just agree with Janine a 100 percent about Jodi and again with her arrogance. Like I said to you before the show earlier today, Dr. Drew, usually, when a girl gets broken up with, we feel bad, we feel insecure like it`s about us. Something is wrong with us, and we take it out on ourselves. She took it out on him.
HUTT: This is the sociopath part that she`s talking about. I don`t think Jodi`s going to kill herself either, by the way.
PINSKY: So, you think, she`s -- because she has this other thing we`ve been talking about, not just borderline, it`s borderline plus psychopathy, that`s where the goal directedness, the self-preoccupations come in. Samantha, what do you think about Jenny just said about what women -- why women are attacking and so upset with her?
SAMANTHA SCHACHER, HOST, "POP TRIGGER": I think women are upset with her because she gives women a bad name. I mean, her whole defense is based on lies and essentially saying that I`m a battered woman when you`re not a battered woman.
DRIVER: Dr. Drew --
DRIVER: The only reason she`s not going to kill herself is because she won`t be able to put makeup on herself when she goes into the casket.
CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., @DRCHERYLARUTT: Right. Right. She`s in love with herself.
ABE ABDELHADI, DATED JODI ARIAS: Let`s look at a bigger picture though.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
ABDELHADI: Let`s look at a bigger picture though, really quick. This trial has changed the nature of murder trials from here on in. You`ve never seen a defendant this arrogant, this snarky, this confident. O.J. had respect. Robert Blake had respect. If I got to say the good old days of O.J., we have fallen as a culture. And now, we have this -- you`re going to see everybody who`s got beat with a wooden spoon.
They didn`t get a Shetland pony (ph) when they were six. It`s going to go on and on and on all based on this trial. She`s the Bill Clinton of murder defendants.
HUTT: OK. You`re right, but you`re not supposed to have swagger when you`re a murder defendant.
PINSKY: Hold on. I hope not --
ABDELHADI: Well, they`re going to now. They`re going to now. Oh, my uncle touched me. I chopped her boob off because my uncle touched me when I was six. It`s going to go on and on and on. You watch.
ARUTT: There`s always been defenses -- I think she`s going to be very, very surprised if -- and I think when, she`s convicted.
PINSKY: So, let`s all agree on this. We`re all going to read Abe`s manifesto. I think we all agree on that. I hope that this doesn`t end up pouring into the courts. I hope that what happens is that people start recognizing when they`re in trouble. They`re having behavior problems. They`ve had trauma, whatever it might be, and they go get help before they do something awful.
That`s what I`m hoping. But I don`t know. Samantha, put a little button on this for this about how this is going to affect our culture. Abe said it`s going to take us into the toilet.
SCHACHER: Well, unfortunately, we`ve seen this trial be glamorized. And I think people have become numb to it because it`s become a little bit of a circus. And they forget the fact that this is a trial of somebody that was so brutally murdered. I mean, when you look at those photographs, he was murdered three times over.
PINSKY: Yes, slaughter. It was absolutely slaughter. Good panel, as usual, part two of the panel takes me into places that makes me uncomfortable. And you guys succeeded tonight. Next up, two brothers who know Travis Alexander are here, and they have a theory about how Jodi killed Travis.
And later, mom whose daughter was Jodi`s roommate, and she didn`t become part of the investigation. She has a story to tell. It didn`t end well as you might imagine. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HUGHES, TRAVIS` BEST FRIEND: They`re painting him in this -- making him out to be this monster, right? And that just aggravates me, because, -- and they say, you know, he`s got this secret life. He doesn`t have a secret life. He`s not living a double life. He has a sex life, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
CHRIS HUGHES: And most people have them and they`re private and I would say sacred, you know? So, to pain him our -- look, my wife and I knew he was having a relationship with Jodi Arias. We knew that they were intimate. We couldn`t paint you a picture of it. We didn`t know what it looked like. We didn`t know what they did behind closed doors. We didn`t ask, and they didn`t say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And now, unfortunately, we all know. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. That was Travis Alexander`s very close friend, Chris Hughes, on Monday night with us here. Joining us now are Chris` brothers, David and Michael Hughes. They actually worked with Travis and knew him. This Michael`s first ever interview. And so, Michael, I appreciate you being here.
And David, you were actually in the courtroom today. You made eye contact with Jodi. Tell us what happened when you heard -- first of all, what happened when you made eye contact with Jodi? How was that?
DAVID HUGHES, KNEW TRAVIS ALEXANDER: Well, actually, I`m David. Mike is actually the one that got in the courtroom. I know you get that confused because we`re twins.
PINSKY: Got it.
DAVID HUGHES: As a matter of fact your producer was trying to get us to dress alike. And that`s a really sore subject to us, because my mom --
PINSKY: Yes. I have triplets. We would not, we would -- you`d have to move through our bodies to dress our kids the same. So, I understand what you`re dealing with. I`m sorry about that.
MICAHEL HUGHES, KNEW TRAVIS ALEXANDER: No, Dr. Drew, hey. No, I was -- I made it in the lottery today. The family side was all filled up. And so, I wind up going through the lottery. I got picked for the lottery and was able to get into the courtroom. It`s just great to be here with the family and to be able to give them our support and love.
And, so, it`s a real surreal day. And Juan Martinez, I thought, did a fantastic job wrapping this up, doing his final remarks, and putting a bow on it. You know, when you were saying, when you asked me about Jodi looking at me today, I was actually sitting right behind her mother. And she had made a double take. So, it was the first time she`s ever seen me, you know, in any way or fashion according to this trial.
And you know, we spent a lot of time on the phone. We talked quite a bit because of business. She`s been to our house many, many times. And it was really weird to make that connection with -- she made a double take and looked down, and like oh, what are you doing here. So, anyway, but, I knew them both very, very well. And it was very sad to be able to see how that relationship blossomed and got dangerous and deadly.
PINSKY: And now, that was Michael, right? I`m still screwed up.
MICAHEL HUGHES: Yes. It`s Michael.
PINSKY: OK. David, you were the one that actually spoke to Jodi right after you found out Travis was dead. Tell us that story.
DAVID HUGHES: That was Mike also. So, I`ll let him --
MICAHEL HUGHES: So, no, what happened is --
PINSKY: I`m so sorry.
MICAHEL HUGHES: It`s all right. You know, that happens to us all the time. So, anyway, I actually got a text from Dave. He was in Cancun with Chris Hughes. And the text just simply said, the T-Dog is dead. And I`m like what? What kind of text is this? So, anyway, I`m calling frantically trying to find out what`s going on. And I couldn`t get ahold of anybody because of the cell phones in Cancun.
And so, anyway, I wind up, the first person I called was Jodi. And she picked up the phone. And she was immediately in tears. And I said what do you know? She goes, well, I know that Travis is dead. And she just is hysterical the whole entire time. And I said, how did he die? She says I don`t know. I don`t know. And I said, have you talked to anyone?
And she goes, I`ve only talked to Travis` bishop and he said that there was blood everywhere. And I go, was he murdered? And she goes, I don`t know, I don`t know. And I go, let me -- Dave Hull (ph) knows more than you. Let me get Dave hold on phone. So, I three wayed conference call Dave Hull (ph) into the call.
And they wind up -- I just simply said, Dave, what do you know? And he said yes, you know, Travis was found dead in his home today. And I said, hey, by the way, I`ve got Jodi on the phone. And he goes oh, hey, Jodi, hold on a second guys, I`m about to board the plane to go to Cancun. And so, anyway, then he wind up -- so, anyway, I`m sorry and then he wind up saying hold on, Jodi just a second.
And he text me and he said you`re on the phone with the number one suspect and I immediately freaked out. And I said, guys, we`re going up the mountains. I was with my family and my favorite aunt. I said, listen, I`ve got to go, I`m losing reception. I hung up with Jodi. I called back Dave Hull and said what?
And he told me what`s going on. It was just a shocker and what`s really frightening about that is two months of that, two months prior to the murder, I had just invited her to live in our apartment downstairs apartment. And it kind of just freaks me out to think that that person could have been in my home.
HUTT: OK. So this is my question, Michael. What was your friendship like with Jodi? How did you have that level of relationship where you thought you`d invite her to live with you when she was going to -- after she had broken up with Travis? Did she flirt with you? Or after he had broken up with her, was she flirtatious with you?
MICAHEL HUGHES: No. No. Our relationship was very professional. You know, she didn`t make -- you know, we didn`t have any type of -- it was very business. And, you know, but I was working directly with her. And I took a lot of phone calls with her and helped her and trained her. And so, you know, we were closer on a business aspect but the reason why I invited her was because we were actually at a convention.
She was telling me they just broke up. She was thinking about moving to California. And I just told her, you know, you should try moving out to Colorado. It`s amazing.
PINSKY: And David, I want to give you a chance here. I`m sorry. All my questions have been directed to Michael.
PINSKY: But you knew her as well, is there anything you have to add about the woman, you know, everybody says pretty much the same thing, and the picture`s getting grimmer and grimmer in terms of how sort of manipulative and problematic this woman is, do you agree?
DAVID HUGHES: Oh, absolutely. I mean, she`s completely manipulative, because if you look at this interview that she did on "48 Hours," the raw footage, that is what Jodi Arias is like when she`s got her best foot forward. But you see her in the courtroom? Totally different person.
PINSKY: Well, and it seems like she`s very good at that, at presenting whatever face she needs to present to get her goals met.
Thank you, gentlemen.
DAVID HUGHES: Next up, living with Jodi, a woman who knows -- well, whose daughter really is the one that knows exactly what that`s like. She`s here with us. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How horrific it is to be accused falsely of being a pedophile. He`s not here to say no, that`s not true. How absolutely hateful that allegation is, and how absolutely extensive she was with it? But, remember, I said that she went a little too far with these thoughts?
First of all, her journal indicates that there wasn`t such an event. Second of all, the text messages also indicate the same thing. What human being doesn`t go to the police and say this person is a pedophile. What she does is the new approach to pedophilia. What does she do? Well, let`s jump in the sack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And, he went on to describe how there was zero evidence of pedophilia, zero, zero, zero. Back with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. Also, we have brothers David and Michael Hughes. They knew Jodi and Travis. And, all of us now are being joined by Debbie. She would prefer I not use her last name. She has -- now you used to -- your daughter lived with Jodi. Is that right, Debbie? Debbie, are you there?
"DEBBIE," DAUGHTER LIVED WITH JODI: Can you hear me?
PINSKY: Yes, I hear you now.
PINSKY: So, tell us the story. I understand your daughter lived with Jodi for a couple weeks, and it ended badly. What happened?
"DEBBIE": Well, she met Jodi in October of 2006. They both started a training program at a restaurant called Bing Crosbys (ph) in rancho mirage. They became real close.
PINSKY: And Debbie, I`m sorry to interrupt. We have very limited time. Tell me they got together. They worked together. Tell me where it went bad. What happened?
"DEBBIE": She wanted Ashley to move in. And she moved in on January 6th, because Daryl had left her high and dry, according to Jodi. And she lasted three weeks.
PINSKY: What happened?
"DEBBIE": The behaviors of Jodi, the lying, the manipulation, the men at all hours. She would leave to go to Arizona at two or three o`clock in the morning.
PINSKY: Hang on. Men at all hours. Would she have men over and have sex with them? Is that what your daughter was subjected to?
"DEBBIE": She would tell my daughter to go in her room and shut the door.
"DEBBIE": But she could hear the things that were going on out there. She said she was having bible studies.
PINSKY: I want you to react to that. Have you ever heard of this history before?
"DEBBIE": This what? I`m sorry?
PINSKY: I`m asking David if he`d like to react to that if he`d ever heard of anything like this coming from her.
DAVID HUGHES: No. I`ve never heard of anything like that.
PINSKY: Yes. It a little disturbing, Debbie. Again, we can`t confirm nor deny, but I take your report -- it`s certainly consistent with what we`ve come to understand about this person. It wouldn`t be that surprising. Go ahead, Jenny.
HUTT: I like the idea of bible studies as a euphemism for sex.
"DEBBIE": This was the way it was, the entire three weeks. It was amazing my daughter lasted as long as she did.
PINSKY: And ultimately, she tried to get a restraining order against Jodi. Is that correct?
"DEBBIE": I wanted to get a restraining order against her when this was over. She say -- I called her a functioning psychopath. And --
PINSKY: Well, that`s what we`re all coming to understand. And then, you didn`t know about this -- when did you find out about this murder? And what did you think then?
"DEBBIE": As soon as we found out, we called Detective Flores, because we thought we had some information that he would be interested in about Travis, because my daughter knew him, and, you know, all the visits that he had there during that time, she knew all about it. she knew him.
So, we thought we had some information pertaining to Jodi, but he said he was interested in people who knew her from Arizona. So, we gave our number and he never called us back. So -- and this whole time I haven`t heard anybody coming forward and saying --
PINSKY: Debbie, I have to go. I`m sorry. I would love to talk to you more. I hope, too. And we are interested in what you have to offer. It`s very telling. It`s a whole piece of the story. Again, this is all puzzle we`re putting together. Thank you, Debbie. Thank you Michael and David. Next up, my jury.
PINSKY: Welcome back. It is time for Drew`s jurors. And I`m with my co-host, Jenny Hutt. And joining the two of us, Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington. Now, you guys didn`t get into the courtroom today because there was a lottery. We heard David and Michael mentioned that as well. That`s how I think Michael got into courtroom.
Now, so, you were outside, but you saw everything went down. Katie, you yourself, were crying today. Why and what did you think of Jodi`s tears?
KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, a few of us gals couldn`t get in, so we went across the street to the hotel where they`re staying. And we started crying when Juan Martinez was talking about the autopsy photos and we`re bawling. And I`m looking at Jodi and there`s no tears. How in the world does that possible? I never knew Travis. I`m bawling and she`s not shedding anything.
PINSKY: Very interesting, except when she had to confront the reality of what she had done. Again, whenever reality creeps in, that`s when she becomes panicky. Stacy, the closing arguments, what did you think?
STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": Juan Martinez was on fire. He did excellent. He was so good. He got out everything that he needed to say. And I think just reminding that jury of all of her lies. That`s what this case really comes down to. Jodi has lied about so many things. And the bottom line is, it was premeditated murder of Travis. And she was upset and that`s where we are. And she needs to get the conviction of first degree murder.
PINSKY: Yes. He heard of someone who knew her one time calling her a functioning psychopath long before she did this.
Ladies, thank you. We have to take a quick break. Be right back.
PINSKY: It`s time for the last call. Show hands, ladies. Who amongst you think there will be a decision by Monday? Show hands. Ooh, nobody.
HUTT: This is a hopeful hand raise.
PINSKY: I think maybe Tuesday. Thank you, guys. Thank you to the jury. Thank you, Jenny Hutt. Thanks to all of my guests. Thanks for watching. We`ll see you tomorrow. Again, live at 9:00, two-hour edition of "HLN After Dark" begins right now.