Return to Transcripts main page


Jodi Arias Murder Case

Aired April 25, 2013 - 21:00   ET



JUAN MARTINEZ, PROSECUTOR: What effect would it have had on Mr. Alexander if it had been the first injury to his body?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would have been very rapidly incapacitating.

JENNIFER WILLMOTT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When a bullet goes into the sinus, then it`s going to cause bleeding where it going, right?


WILLMOTT: If we assume that the gun shot wound was the first wound that was inflicted, OK, you would agree that would not be immediately fatal, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably rapidly fatal.

WILLMOTT: What`s the difference between immediate and rapid?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Immediate is within a second, the person drop and they`re dead.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And rapid would be seconds to minutes, depends on your definition. I do think it`s immediately incapacitating but not immediately fatal.

WILLMOTT: So when you told this jury that it was not immediately incapacitating, that was a mistake on your part?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I immediately correct my testimony in my testimony, yes.

WILLMOTT: So it was a mistake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a misstatement, yes.

WILLMOTT: OK. There was no damage that you could see, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. In my report, I say it`s limited by decomposition.

WILLMOTT: But you also tell us in your report that there was no damage that you can see in the brain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right, because of decomposition.

WILLMOTT: You`re hypothesizing, aren`t you, because the holes in the skulls, you`re guessing that the bullet went through the brain, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It had to have gone through the brain. It`s simple geometry.


DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Yes, there we are.

Good evening, everybody. My co-host is psychologist Michelle Ward, host of "Stalked" on Discovery ID.

And the state rests its case against Jodi Arias after one last round of really graphic autopsy photos and disputes over word definitions and, guess what, the drama is far from over. I think everyone can tell that.

Now, a warning to everyone, we will be showing some really gruesome photos tonight. But -- and also discussing some adult content. But I think it is important we don`t shrink away reasonably from some of these pictures because it tells such a gruesome story about what Jodi is all about.

"In Session" correspondent Beth Karas is covering the trial.

Beth, a big development today, with a juror -- one of the best note- takers apparently being kicked off the jury.

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" CORRESPONDENT: Yes, indeed. And we don`t know why juror number eight, one of the 10 men, was removed. There are now nine men, and six men. But he sat in the front row, near the public gallery, a big note taker, like you mentioned, and also some questions for witnesses occasionally as well.

So his seat`s going to remain empty when court resumes next Wednesday. Just like the seats for jurors five and 11 who have been remained empty.

PINSKY: Michelle, I think that`s going to change the make-up the jury entirely. This is the guy who was asking the snarky questions. Given that you`re a murder and a liar, Jodi, how could you fill in the blank question?

MICHELLE WARD, CO-HOST: And that`s the thing. This is more significant than just losing a juror. You`re changing the whole group dynamic. And what that means is when you select a jury, yes, it`s important for individuals, but you`re really thinking how is this group going to work together and come to a decision?

So if this was a leader and he got kicked, we could see a whole different occurrence in the jury room.

PINSKY: And it could be good for Jodi that way? We don`t know. We don`t know which way.

WARD: I don`t know which direction it would go.

PINSKY: All right. Thank you, Beth.

Joining us: Lisa Bloom, legal advisor at, Mark Eiglarsh, attorney at, and the human lie detector, Janine Driver, author of "You Can`t Lie to Me".

Everybody take a look at this -- the attorneys examining photos that are about to be shown to the court. Jodi looks worried. Take a look at that footage. There`s the photos they`re about to look at. There`s the defense attorneys. And there`s Jodi. Uh-oh!

Janine, could they be breaking through her denial a little bit? Do these photos -- what do you see in her face?

JANINE DRIVER, AUTHOR: Well, we see her face do a micro-expression of fear. We call this the three whites, Dr. Drew. We see the three whites around the eyes.

But she also puts her hair behind her head. Think about it, new born babies, what do they use to comfort themselves? A pacifier. As adults, we pacify ourselves by touching our face. It`s OK, I`ll get through this. It`s OK I`ll get through this.

She sits up a little to see what`s going on. An increase in stress and anxiety right out of the gate.

PINSKY: I think those photos tell a huge story that is going to be more than just stressful for her.

Lisa, what do you think?

LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Yes. She`s got to be concerned. I mean, all of the evidence is in now. I think it looks very bad for her. The prosecution has very strong evidence against her. And those photos are really front and center in their case against her.

So, of course, she should be concerned.


MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY: Yes, compelling. The photograph -- when you look at the abhorrent nature of what she admittedly did, they`re not going to excuse that. I don`t see it.

PINSKY: Yes, I agree. Now, the footage, the photos that were just be being handed across to the defense attorneys, we`re going to look at here. Now, we`re going to put some, we`re going to make it more palatable and blur some of the areas out. But those blurred areas were not what were shown to the jury.

Can we show any of those photos? We`ve got those up. There we go. This is the photo, gunshot wound to the head. It`s the entry wound to Travis` head.

And if I remember, Mark, the coroner was saying -- there are the stab wounds on the back. It`s unbelievable. When you look at that, you think the brutality of this.

Michelle, you sort of -- you lurched your body when we`re watching that.

WARD: Yes. And for me, it`s the egregious nature of this. How incredibly --

PINSKY: Savage.

WARD: But did she have the strength, the anger and viciousness of this person. That`s what`s surging through my body.

PINSKY: Do you guys --

DRIVER: Dr. Drew.

PINSKY: Yes, ma`am.

DRIVER: I just want to say. I was in the courtroom. And what people at home watching your great show might not know is there are big screens everywhere, but right across from the jury themselves, directly across is a gigantic movie screen as if you`re going to your local movie theater.

So these pictures are not shown on the size screen that you`re watching on your television set. To the jurors themselves, to Travis` family and those front two rows, they are seeing them on a gigantic movie screen, directly across from the jurors.

PINSKY: Mark, do you have anything about this that -- I`m concerned about the way the coroner went about describing all this, that he may have left some, some holes in the case. Because the way he interpreted what had happened to her -- to him, rather, was open to interpretation. Are we going to have another whole round of people trying to reinterpret the autopsy?

EIGLARSH: I certainly hope not. But this was game, set, match, this guy looks good. He sounds good. He`s completely credible.

But then I heard that single word that starts with a P that I get excited about when I`m a defense lawyer trying a case and I`m zealously defending someone. He said probably. I went, wait, wait. Probably? He probably was incapacitated?

He said many times he definitely -- Travis was definitely incapacitated by the bullet wound. But then he said probably.

For those who are ready to dismiss that probably is the same as definitely. I ask you, when you get on to a plane and as you`re boarding, assuming the captain was to say attention everybody, we`re probably going to land safely --

PINSKY: Right.

EIGLARSH: -- you`ll probably get off the plane.

BLOOM: That`s very typical for scientific witnesses. You know, we lawyers want everything black and white. We want 100 percent certainty. Scientists don`t usually like to say that.

You know, what jumped out of me about those photos, Dr. Drew was not only that he stabbed and it`s so awful to look at those pictures of stabbed wounds, but stabbed in the back. And this is a woman who`s claiming self- defense.

And one of the last things the jury saw was a photo of him being stabbed over and over and over again, or a photo of the stab wounds to his back in a self-defense case.

PINSKY: And, by the way --

EIGLARSH: I agree with Lisa a hundred percent. I don`t think that she`s going to get anything other than first degree murder. But where these photos are going to be key will be in the penalty phase where the prosecutions has to show how heinous and cruel this offense was and those photos speak volumes.

BLOOM: You agree with me 100 percent of the time, all the time or just today?

EIGLARSH: Say it again, what?

PINSKY: Janine, go.


BLOOM: Do you agree with me 100 percent of the time or just today?

EIGLARSH: Oh, just today.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Janine.

DRIVER: I`ve said this on your show before, Dr. Drew. We know, we`ve interviewed jurors in the past, law enforcement, psychologist. When they`re deciding the death penalty phase, if they`re deciding that at that moment, they are looking at everything with regard to the picture, how heinous the crime is, they`re also looking at family members that are surviving. To give Jodi the death penalty does it look like there`s going to be a lot of pain to her family.

Then you`ve got the front two rows full of Travis` family. They are exhausted, they are tired. They are flying in from different parts of the country. They don`t live here.

So, they`re flying in. They are devastated. They did not look at the pictures from what I understand today. They must have been warned they are coming. Their heads were down.

The jury is not only looking at the pictures. They`re looking at how the two families are responding to these pictures.

PINSKY: Now, thank you guys.

Minute ago Nancy Grace interviewed Travis` ex-girlfriend Linda Ballard Boss and asked about when she learned of Travis` death. Take a look at this.


LINDA BALLARD BOSS, TRAVIS` EX-GIRLFRIEND: I do. I learned about it just days after they discovered the body. News had traveled through the grapevine of Travis` friends. My sister actually called me while I was at work. I was working in office in Phoenix, and I just started crying there if my cubicle. And my sister had told me that he was found in his shower and that foul play was suspected and I thought who could possibly want to injure Travis.


PINSKY: And, you know, Michelle, it`s sad and heart-breaking when you hear her tell that story. But to me, she looks like the Travis -- if we were to meet him, I imagine she`s more representative of how he thought of himself and how other people thought of him.

WARD: It looks like Travis` girlfriend. It really does.

And for her, I`m sure, I mean, you would think the girlfriend guilt of oh, if we had stayed together this wouldn`t have happened. I can`t imagine what this is like for her.

PINSKY: Oh, so awful.

All right. Next the alleged incident that changed Jodi Arias, supposedly forever. What was it?

My behavior bureau and you will find out after the break.

And later claims that Jodi was pregnant with Travis` child. One of his friends is here and will tell us the truth. We`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She doesn`t trust us because we`re parents. And when she was in 8th grade, she got busted for growing marijuana with our Tupperware putting it on top of the roof. We found it, and called the sheriff department and they busted her and I don`t know, some of her friends or something, and then we searched her room. That was the first time we`ve ever searched her room.

And after that, she was so -- she was kind of like something turned in her head. We were nosey parents. And we were going to search everything she had. So she hid everything from us and always has since then.

She`s never been honest with us. And she was probably 14 then. And she has never been honest ever since then. And then when she had the house in Palm Desert it was. We told her we were going to come visit her and she goes, where you going to stay? She didn`t want us staying with her because she was afraid we`d snoop through her stuff and I go, hey --

INVESTIGATOR: That is kind of strange.

UNIDENTIFEID MALE: That`s just the ways she`s been, when she in Palm Desert after that man, that`s when everything, I don`t know what you know, it`s been a couple of years then but ever since she`s been a little crazy for a year.


PINSKY: A little crazy.

Time for the behavior bureau to look at that comment and the rest.

I`m back with my co-host this week, psychologist Michelle Ward.

All right. Michelle, so here we go. Dad trying to understand why his daughter lied to him chronically after this seemingly simple episode. You interpretation.

WARD: Well, sadly, I think she was probably lying all along. He was trying to parent her.

You catch your kid with marijuana, that`s what you do. You parent them.

And that`s so telling to me. She didn`t trust us. That is so Jodi. Look at what you have done to me. Not look what I did to my family. Look at what you`ve done to me.

PINSKY: Look what you`ve done to me. You`re awful. I can`t ever trust you again.

Joining us, the human lie detector, Janine Driver, clinical and forensic psychologist Cheryl Arutt, psychologist Eris Huemer from, and psychologist Wendy Walsh, author of "30-Day Love Detox".

So, Jodi`s parents discover she`s growing pot. And apparently she never trusts them again.

Wendy, I`ll start with you. That does not happen. It doesn`t happen. When someone tries to parent a child and they go oh, we can never be the same again, at 14, ridiculous.

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: It also shows the kind of emotional power she had in the family. In other words, now, the parents are beholding to her. Well, she doesn`t trust us. Let`s try to be nice to her, let`s try to win her friendship back somehow instead of holding the authority in the household.

But yes, I agree with Michelle, it wasn`t the beginning of it definitely.

PINSKY: And, Cheryl, I would say she`s had the makings of the borderline character, long before that episode with the pot, would you agree?

CHERYL ARUTT, PYSCHOLOGIST: I would definitely agree, Dr. Drew. And I think that, to me, this really speaks to how the family began walking on eggshells with Jodi, trying not to upset her and trying to cater to her moods.

PINSKY: Yes, which is ridiculous.

Eris, you want to ring on this?

ERIS HUEMER, PSYCHOLOGIST: I actually do because my question for you guys is, her parents called the sheriff`s department when they found her growing pot. But what about calling a therapist to see the underlying reason why all of this is happening?


HEUMER: Because this could have been the beginning of her pathological lying, because if you can`t trust your parents, who can you trust?

PINSKY: Well, no, listen, Eris, I advise parent to do stuff like this all the time and things get better, not worse after you do so. But you`re obviously right, you have to then also do the psychological work, psychiatric or whatever might be, to figure out why this kid is struggling.

You`re absolutely right, and this drives me insane. Parents try to go it alone, never goes well, or they criminalize it and make it that`s a bad kid rather than a kid who`s struggling with mental illness.

WARD: And, by the way, a lot of young people experiment with marijuana. That`s not what`s abnormal. It`s what happened afterwards that`s abnormal.

PINSKY: Crazy behavior.

She also seems to kind of -- Janine, you want to say something there.

DRIVER: Well, I was going to say, in 1989, I was a freshman in college and I experimented with the drug called No Doz. I remember, and my mother found No Doz in purse at home and she goes, your purse accidentally fell on the floor and this No Doz came out and I was trying to stay up.

And my mother goes this is the gateway drug to marijuana and then cocaine.

PINSKY: We`ve been looking for that for a long time, Janine, the gateway for pot. That`s good. Mom maybe on to something.

DRIVER: It`s No Doz. I solved the case.

PINSKY: But did she do any parenting, and did you never forgive her again?

DRIVER: Both my parents sat down -- well, they both sat down and they said, listen, this is doped up in caffeine. What`s next? What does -- when that doesn`t work, what`s the next high? I literally -- I ended up going to law enforcement because I didn`t go down a path of taking drugs and experimenting. I had top clearance, I always drug tested.

So I think that the No Doz talk that my parents had scared the daylights out of me.

PINSKY: Let me talk to my panel also about the pictures we`ve just saw. I haven`t had a chance to talk to the behavior bureau about the brutality and savagery of those pictures. Let`s start with Cheryl.

Do you have a reaction to them?

ARUTT: It`s stomach turning. It`s upsetting. Yet, I`m really glad that the jury is really having a chance to look at the enormity of Jodi`s crime, of what she did to him.


HUEMER: Absolutely. It is excruciatingly painful to see these pictures, and how much it does look like the movie. It looks like in the movies. It doesn`t even look like reality.

PINSKY: And, Wendy, the families had to sit through all this, not just the character assassination, but repeatedly looking at these grew some pictures.

WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: Even if they didn`t have complicated grieving before this, I`m sure the trial is putting them into a very prolonged state of grieving.

But, Dr. Drew, let me ask you. What do you think the jury is thinking? How can shy be claiming self-defense? What could they possibly think to ever collude with her idea that it`s self-defense with all the stab wounds in the back?

PINSKY: I can`t figure it out. For me, you know, if you guys feel the same way. But the longer she has spent on the stand, we were talking about their off the air. It becomes harder to give her the death sentence because she`s more of a human, more of a relationship with her. Yet, she has looked more and more crazy as time has gone on.

WARD: Yes. And that`s kind of what we came up with. It would be harder not to recognize that she committed this crime with premeditation, but it`s harder to put her to death. She becomes a person. P.S., her family`s in the courtroom. They get to know they put their daughter to death.

PINSKY: Go ahead, Janine.

DRIVER: Well, I was just going to say, you know, it`s not only hard for the jury. Even the father, when the father was in the interrogation room, it`s very interesting. His hands folded, he was very relaxed until we hear the detective say we have enough evidence to show that she`s proved murder. We`re trying to figure out why.

And the father suddenly grabs his wrist. And this is a very interesting move. The higher the hold the higher anxiety is told. We saw the witness take the stand about the body and the gun, did the shot kill him. What do we see with the witness on the stand. He started to grab his arm. The higher the holds more anxiety is told. Even it`s hard for the father to believe she murdered him.

PINSKY: Now, Jodi -- Jodi started isolating herself from much of her world as he begun to focus in on Travis. You know, it was almost like an addict kind of pulls away from everybody and starts to focus on their primary drug. How -- why do you think that for somebody who their whole life is -- I guess I understand this but I hope my audience understand this -- their whole life is this one person, why would they go to kill that person if things aren`t working out? How could they kill the one thing that`s the focus of their attention?

WARD: I think it`s addiction to her. Every moment was Travis, Travis. And something had to stop because she couldn`t go on like that forever. A lot of (INAUDIBLE) end up killing themselves. She ends up killing Travis.

PINSKY: Wendy?

WALSH: It was a love/hate relationship. I mean, she was addicted to him. She hated the fact that she was addicted to him. He brought her as much pleasure as pain. And so for her, in her crazy head, the only way she could actually finally separate from him would be through death.

PINSKY: Cheryl?

ARUTT: I think that she came back to seduce him one more time to get him to take her to Cancun. I think it`s really telling that there was that book, one thousand places to see before you die, Cancun was one of those places. And I think when he said, she said you`re dying first. You`re not going to see that place.

PINSKY: Show of hands that agrees with that Cheryl just said, probably that she came back to try one more seduction. Is that everyone`s hand off or Wendy not yours?

WALSH: I think it was too premeditated. She rented the car. She, you know, stole, made the fake thievery to take the gun. It was too planned out as purely a murder.

PINSKY: Michelle and I have been talking about this. Go ahead, Michelle.

We do this back and forth. My brain goes there. And Dr. Drew bring it is back again. I think she had plan A and plan B.

ARUTT: I agree.

PINSKY: But it`s crazy how much premeditated plan B was. She was ready for fax he didn`t respond to the seduction. Can you imagine? That`s so bizarre.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can`t imagine it.

PINSKY: No, we thought of it. We can`t imagine.

ARUTT: We don`t want to imagine it. But there it is.

PINSKY: And by the way, you imagine it. I keep arguing with you. Wendy came up with it too. I came out of the behavior panel a little bit shaken. Thank you, ladies, thank you.

Next up, my outspoken love life co-host is back and ready to take on another round with the behavior bureau. There is Mike Catherwood.

And later, noir juror gets the boot. My jurors were there. They will tell us what they know about what happened.



JODI ARIAS, MURDER DEFENDANT: He wanted to drive up to the home, give him oral sex. And then he wanted to (EXPLETIVER DELETED) on his face, and then get back in his car and drive away without saying a single word.

PINSKY: Mike, do you see any deviant behaviors there?

MIKE CATHERWOOD, TV PERSONALITY: Absolutely not. You`ve got to understand. When you`re in a committed relationship, sex is like a pickup basketball game where you call your own fouls. Everybody kind of knows, there`s some unwritten rules then you kind of got to gauge and the scene.

And every time you play another game, you figure out what`s OK and what`s not. And, you know, the farther you push it, it really is decided on the court. Sometimes you`re playing with a guy with a bum knee or an old man who used to shoot hoops underhand and then you know that stuff isn`t open season. But every once in a while you got a guy who`s dunking on you and you realize I`ve got to go hard in the paint, and that`s exactly what was going on in this relationship.


PINSKY: Back with the behavior bureau, and my co-host this week, Michelle Ward. Ladies, it is your chance to respond to Mr. Catherwood.

Joining me is my co-host from "Love Line", Mike Catherwood.

Wendy, I think -- let`s show the picture of Mike`s lovely wife before we go on. If we possibly can.

Bianca, can we get a picture of Bianca up there? It`s coming up in a second. They`re they are. She`s a movie star, television star. She is lovely. And I think that was a direct attack on Bianca that he was issuing there.

Wendy, what`s say you?

WALSH: I can see why he likes to go hard in the paint. That`s all I`ll say.

Listen, what you`re talking about is you`re objectifying women. But before you get to it being game playing and object like a basketball in the paint, let me remind you that you begin everything with the words in a committed relationship. Jodi and Travis were not in any kind of committed relationship. They didn`t have emotional intimacy. They didn`t have trust. They didn`t have a bond.

So, none of this sexual activity should have been taking place.

PINSKY: Especially, Wendy, now that you see his girlfriend, the fiancee he had, who clearly -- this woman is capable, the one that Nancy Grace interviewed is capable of intimacy, and you get a flavor of what an actual relationship would have been like for her.

Cheryl, you want to have at Mike at all?

ARUTT: I thought what Mike said was great. I thought the basketball metaphors were terrific. Mike, I think Travis wanted to go in for a three- pointer. And all the other girls were giving him a full court press.

PINSKY: OK. All right. Mike, hold on, you`ll have your time.

Eris, go ahead.

HUEMER: I actually agree with Mike and I think it`s great. You know, in any relationship, whether it`s committed. It`s two consensual adults and they`re both playing out their fantasies. It`s perfectly healthy to be in a relationship where you have fantasies and you want to live them out. If they`re two consulting adults doing this and they`re both agreeing with it.

PINSKY: I hear from groaning, was that Wendy?

WALSH: Yes, what is consent really? Is it verbal consent? Is it physical consent? You know, in our culture right now, a lot of women use the word no as foreplay. They use the token no while they`re cuddling up because they want to preserve their reputation.

So they`ll say no, no. We really shouldn`t. We really shouldn`t.

So, now, guys charge past any word of no. So what kind of consent are we looking for? Do we really understand her emotional world?

PINSKY: No, he did not. But I know, Mike, we get a team of attorneys to talk to your wife before you do anything weird, don`t you?

CATHERWOOD: Yes. I mean, I have my panel of young ladies -- you know, I let my wife, she`s properly vetted. Let`s just say that.

But as far as consent goes, I don`t think we can use that word even in the same country as Jodi Arias. You have the human lie detector there on your behavior bureau, Dr. Drew. I`m a human slut detector. And I take one look at Jodi Arias, I can tell this is a woman that she`s not handing out consent.

You walk into a bedroom, she`s already in stirrups. Who knows what she`s wearing? And, of course, of course.

WALSH: Wait, wait, I really hate it when we start slut-slamming, OK? Because the truth is, the sexual double standard, the one that gives men points for experience, the one that gives men demerit points is alive and well in the minds of men. And it really disturbs me, because, you know, I don`t think we use the same scale to talk about men. So no-slut slamming here.

PINSKY: Michelle has to respond. Hold on, Mike.

WARD: Wendy, I completely agree with you. It`s a double standard. But are you saying it`s possible that Jodi did not consent to this?

WALSH: I think yes. I mean, gain, does not give her permission to murder anybody. But I think that she was emotionally unable to really express her needs because her fear of abandonment was just so great.


WARD: If she did ask for clear -- because it`s happening all over America today. If she did ask for clear relationship definition, her fear of abandonment was much greater than her need to have that consent.

ERIS HUEMER, PSY.D., DOCTORERIS.COM: Yes, I disagree. But, you know, I think that Travis and Jodi were both having fun. They were sexually engaged in these great fantasies. And they both were willing to explore it together.

DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Yes, maybe, but it meant a lot of different things to Jodi because of her borderline disorder. And Mike --


PINSKY: So, when you`re with a woman for the first time, you`re thinking about personality disorders and abandonment issues and things like that, right?


PINSKY: You are?



CATHERWOOD: Every once in a while, you have to use those type of detectors, Dr. Drew, to assess really what a woman`s going to let you get away with in the bedroom. And I don`t want to start slut slamming. I really don`t. But I did rent slut slamming the other night. It was a very good film. A little off --


CATHERWOOD: -- for my taste, but you know?



CATHERWOOD: Of course, of course. I mean, I think that that`s actually, all kidding aside, I think most reasonable guys, that`s their main goal in the bedroom is making sure that a woman enjoys herself. But, you also want to have fun. And a guy is going to be as perverse as the woman allows him to be. That`s the truth.

And I feel like you guys were even talking about when they showed Travis` ex-girlfriend. She does look like a very sweet, nice girl. And I think that that`s the true Travis is a very kind of buttoned (ph) up, reasonable guy. When you exposed to a girl like Jodi Arias with her -- exposed roots, ladies, exposed roots and two-toned lips?

Come on. That`s the real tragedy here. I mean, oh, OK, obviously, the real tragedy is murder, but a close second, a close second, exposed roots.

PINSKY: Wendy`s disgusted. Hang on, guys.

WALSH: He got really catty, didn`t he.


PINSKY: I`m going to bring up one more thing which was a few night ago, Eris, I think you said that Jodi was gorgeous. And angry viewers blew up our Facebook page. So, it was interesting. How dare you talk about her that way? She`s nothing close to gorgeous. Eris, why do you think that generated such acrimony?

HUEMER: Well, I think the way she looks actually does generate all of our interest. I`m not saying she`s a beautiful person inside. It`s just this external beauty that she has. It makes the whole trial and this whole murder case intriguing for us to watch. We`re interested. We don`t understand how somebody that looks aesthetically like Jodi, how can she do something so heinous?

PINSKY: Cheryl, you`re shaking your head yes?

CHERYL ARUTT, PSY.D., @DRCHERYLARUTT: I think so, too. I think there`s a fascination and I think that there is a way that she plays on people`s fears, that there can be this sort of coquette with a machete in her hand. I mean, it`s a very frightening, but fascinating thing for a lot of people, and that`s why they`re watching.

PINSKY: Michelle, you have a comment?

WARD: No. You know, she reminds me of a typical psychopath and they tend to be a little attractive. I`m not saying she`s a beauty queen, but there is something compelling about her watching. I mean, I like to watch her. Dimples. I don`t know what it is, but I don`t like her. But I --



PINSKY: Pretty or not?

CATHERWOOD: She`s attractive, but I don`t think she`s gorgeous. You know who I think is gorgeous? You, four ladies.


PINSKY: And with that, he will disarm everybody. Thank you, Mike. Well done. Thank you, ladies.

Next up, the graphic autopsy photos that were shown in court today. They made Jodi weep. And my guests have seen a lot of crime scenes. And they`re going to interpret what was shown in the courtroom today.

And later, one of Travis` friends reveals the truth about the alleged claims that Jodi was pregnant with Travis` baby. Don`t go away.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does that mean to be a defensive wound?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That means that the decedent attempted to raise their hand and grab the weapon or was struck by the weapon while it was being wielded against him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the gunshot was the first injury, would it be possible to have these types of injures on his hand?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t believe so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would Mr. Alexander have had the capacity after the first two or three seconds to get on all fours and begin to crawl away?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don`t think so. Passed through the right frontal lobe of the brain, from the skull, forehead, downward into the left cheek.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you explain why you think Travis was still alive when his throat was cut?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because of the large amount of hemorrhage into the soft tissue throat around the wound. That requires a beating heart.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, psychologist, Michelle Ward. That was the medical examiner who had performed Travis` autopsy. He was the last witness in the case, leaving the jury with this. Jodi stabbed Travis first, slit his throat, and then shot him. Joining me to discuss, attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, pathologist, Dr. Bill Lloyd, and crime scene expert, Randolph Beasley, who knew Travis.

All right. Dr. Lloyd, did the last witness convince the jury and you?

DR. BILL LLOYD, PATHOLOGIST: I have to say first, after several weeks of being inside of Jodi`s head, which is not a very good place to be, at long last, we can get back to the facts of the case.


LLOYD: And sure enough, I think Dr. Horn did a great job explaining that if you`re still bleeding, then you`re still alive. And that`s the case regarding the sequence of events, the stab wound to the chest, severing the vena cava, massive blood loss, then slicing the neck, dragging the body back to the bathroom, and delivering the final blow, not necessarily the fatal blow with the handgun.

PINSKY: Do you think, Dr. Lloyd, that he left the door open to further doubt by saying it`s probable that Travis was incapacitated completely by this bullet wound to the head. I mean, every medical student (INAUDIBLE) were piece of piece of metal when in one side came out the top, blew out his frontal lobe, and he lived for 30 years after that.

LLOYD: Unfortunately, juries don`t know about that case. It`s unfortunate he used the word "probable." The autopsy was done a long time ago, and there`s a lot of speculation at the crime scene itself where police were asking him, so, doc, what do you think? Well, the doctor should have said, you`ll read about it in my final autopsy report.

PINSKY: Randolph, I want your reaction to this. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would he be able to get up after the gunshot wound and after the two seconds and walk approximately five feet and stand at a sink and sort of hover over it? Would he be able to do that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t believe so, no.


PINSKY: Randolph Beasley, that was -- sounds a lot like what you`ve said on this show before where Travis gets shot then goes to the sink and we see the blood spattering as he spits it out of his mouth or nose. What do you think?

RANDOLPH BEASLEY, FORENSIC CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATOR: Well, I think that like Mark tweeted earlier, that the "P" word is probable. And he did leave the door open, because that makes the most sense. And I do want to say that Dr. Lloyd, that continuing education is very important thing. So, I actually, with the help of someone named Crystal, who we follow each other on Twitter.

As you can see, I did get an anatomy book, Anatomy 101 for CSI dummies. And if you notice here, it`s actually penned by Dr. Big Knight. So, I actually went out and I looked at an anatomy book and what I found was very interesting, because as you can see, there`s no brain injury recorded in the medical examiner`s report. If we go back to the report, it says that there`s a bone injury. It says there`s injury to his face, but not his brain.

PINSKY: Although, Dr. Lloyd, on the stand today, he was saying, he seemed to say that the reason he didn`t document injury to the brain was the brain had decomposed too much.

LLOYD: After nine days, the composition of the brain was slightly like tapioca. And so, there was no wound track like there would be in other soft tissues. But we have to go back to the equation. Trauma and blood. Trauma and blood. The injuries had caused massive bleeding occurred while the person was still beating and still bleeding.

The injury that occurred to the skull had minimal bleeding. And all of a sudden, everybody`s on the horse now that the bullet went through the brain. So, where`s the blood?

PINSKY: OK. Mark, finish this up with your "P" words.

MARK EIGLARSH, SPEAKTOMARK.COM: Well, you know, we heard some more. You know, I believe so. I think so. When I`m doing jury selection, I ask jurors, can you give my client a fair trial, and they say, I believe so. I have to clarify as to which (ph) Martinez had done, wait, are you expressing reservation? Or is that just a figure of speech?

I don`t know if he prepped them well enough to say, listen, I need definitive answers from you, which he gave in part. At times, without question, Travis would have hit the ground. There`s no way he could have lunged and continued to do what Jodi`s alleging. But in other times, he hedge (ph) and said, probably. I don`t know as I sit here today with whether he`s expressing reservation or whether that`s a figure of speech.

PINSKY: OK, guys. We got to leave it at that.

Next, could Travis have fathered a child with Jodi? His friend is here to give us an answer.

And later, three words my jurors thought they might not ever hear, the state rests. They will have their observations about a big day in court after this.

VINNIE POLITAN, HLN ANCHOR: Coming up tonight at the top of the hour on "HLN After Dark," our bold accusation, Jodi premeditated the killing. This is the big issue. So, I brought in some help tonight to help me prosecute. Gloria Allred will help me as special prosecutor tonight. We also have TVs Judge Karen with this.

We`ve got 12 jurors in studio who will render a verdict and you, our online jury at home, will also render a verdict. Guilty or not guilty, Jodi Arias premeditated the killing.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a source who was told by Jodi that she got pregnant by Travis, but she lost the baby. And his reaction just absolutely devastated her. She said he was so cold-hearted about it. She felt as though he had stabbed her in the heart. And she says, if you`ll pardon the expression, killed her to see how he could turn against her and treat her so horribly.


PINSKY: Back with my co-host, Michelle Ward. Joining us, Mark Eiglarsh and Lisa Bloom. They`re still with us. Joining the four of us -- three of us, I beg your pardon, is Travis` friend who also knew Jodi. His name is Josh Denne.

Josh, we spoke a lot last night about claims that Jodi -- Jodi apparently was making to somebody that the press picked up on that she is pregnant or was pregnant with Travis` baby and ultimately miscarried. What is the truth?

JOSH DENNE, TRAVIS ALEXANDER`S FRIEND: That is laughable, Dr. Drew. Absolutely laughable. Had that happened at all, she would have worn it like a badge of honor. She`d told everybody in the world. She`s just reaching right now, reaching for anything to try to save her pathetic self.

PINSKY: And Josh, it`s been a few weeks since we`ve spoken to you. How has your sense of her and this whole crime evolved as the court case has evolved?

DENNE: You know, my sense of her has been the same as it has from the very beginning. You know, it`s just -- and anyone who knew Travis and knew them, they all feel the same way. I know everyone`s echoing what everyone else is saying. I am excited that recently you`re seeing, you know, that her story`s falling apart. There`s so much inconsistencies now.

And so, obviously, everybody is saying, OK, wow, there`s too many holes in this. Yes, it`s premeditation. There`s no way it couldn`t be. And now that she`s making up all these other stories -- she`s a pathological liar. She continues to lie. And that pregnant story is just another example.

PINSKY: Josh, I want to show you a picture from Jodi`s MySpace page. There you are with her. That`s Josh and Jodi. What comes to mind when you see that?

DENNE: Yikes?

PINSKY: Yikes.


PINSKY: Yes. Where was that? What was happening? What did you think of her back then?

DENNE: That was San Bernardino. That was actually the first day I met her.

PINSKY: Did you get the same weird feeling that everyone else did about her? It`s like the MTIs and the coldness and the chameleon-like quality that everyone has reported?

DENNE: Absolutely. Just something a little off in her eyes.

PINSKY: Lisa and Mark, I understand, you guys wanted to ask a question. I`ll start with Lisa.

LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Well, you now, my question is about this whole pregnancy thing. I mean, it`s possible. They were having a lot of wild sex, probably unprotected sex, and yet, how could this be true given that so much of their relationship is in texts and recorded phone calls? Wouldn`t we know about it?


DENNE: Yes, well, of course. I mean, she would have told everybody.



PINSKY: Everything in this case, Mark, like everything else in this case no evidence. All kinds of weird speculation and tributary stories. No evidence. Mark, go ahead.

EIGLARSH: Yes. I`m not going to be her puppet. I`m not going to let her use me to, somehow, get information every time she wants to. It`s going to go on over the decades, I`m sure, of her putting out information to help sell something. But I want to bring this back to Travis. I love that we always do that on this show. And I want to ask you, Josh.

I didn`t know Travis before this trial. I`ve come to so admire him. He`s a guy that I would hanks out with if somehow he was alive. I can`t come up with the words --

PINSKY: Go ahead, Mark.

EIGLARSH: I can`t come up with the words to describe the sense of loss. And I didn`t even know him. I`m wondering if you could, put it to words, the sense of loss that Jodi has created.

DENNE: It`s -- I mean, just that the world is definitely without a great man. You`re right, Mark. You would have liked Travis. You would have liked to hang out with him because no matter where he was, he made everyone in the room or anyone that was in his vicinity feel good, feel special. You know, he -- and as you can see from some of the videos, you know, he was a comedian.

You know, he made you laugh. He was just an incredible human being to be around all the time. And I know I speak on behalf of any one of his friends. We miss him. We miss him terribly and we wish he was here.

PINSKY: Thanks, Josh. And even looking at the pictures that we saw earlier on Nancy show of him as a younger man and his fiance, lovely fiance, you get a fuller sense of the richness this guy that is lost.

Next up -- thank you, guys -- my jury tells us what really happened with a juror who got the boot, what that was like, in the courtroom after this.


PINSKY: Welcome back. Time for Drew`s jurors with my co-host, Michelle Ward. Joining us, Katie Wick and Stacey Fairrington.

All right. Katie, the autopsy photos that we all have seen today, and we`ve seen parts of them. How did the jury react?

KATIE WICK, DR. DREW "JUROR": I saw a few of the jurors look down. A lot of notes were taken because Juan Martinez was still explaining the photos and asking questions about the photos. Dr. Drew, my emotions have been here all day. I know Stacey as well. I feel so many emotions. I`m angry that this young man who had such life before him had to die so rudely. I saw horrific photos I`ve never seen. And I saw them and I looked away.

The thing that infuriated me the most was I saw Jodi with her back to the jury facing the wall with her hair covering her face. And I thought, you know what, you`re pathetic. Turn around and acknowledge what you did because you did ask Detective Flores to see the photos before. She`s still putting on a show, Dr. Drew, and it just -- it breaks my heart that Travis died in such a disgusting manner. And --

PINSKY: Katie?

WICK: I say at the end of the day, I hope to God this is what makes her be found guilty for murder one.

PINSKY: This is the most emotional I`ve seen you. I can tell it`s really affected you. Stacey, were you equally as affected?

STACEY FAIRRINGTON, DR. DREW "JUROR": It was. I mean, I -- you know, I was not prepared for that. I think that first photo that they showed today`s what the most intimate of all the photos. It just kind of created such a picture of somebody whose life had been taken far too early. And I looked down. I mean, I couldn`t continue to look at him. It was just heartbreaking.

And watching Jodi, I actually do think she had some tears today, but they weren`t for Travis. They were for herself. And I don`t know if it was -- that`s really what I did, My grandma and family are here to see that, or if it`s, wow, that`s death and that`s a possibility for me soon. You know, I`m not sure. But I do think that there was some emotion from her, but once again, it was only for herself.

PINSKY: Thank you, ladies.

WICK: And what a coward, Dr. Drew, for her to turn her back like that.

PINSKY: Yes. Katie, I see that affected you deeply. We`ll talk more as we go along here. Thank you very much. Last call is next.


PINSKY: I want to thank Michelle Ward for a great week this week. You did a fantastic job.

WARD: Thank you.

PINSKY: Thank you so much. Very interesting stuff. We will hear more about this trial next week. Thank you all for watching. I`ll see you next time. "HLN After Dark" starts right now.