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False Tweet Saying President Was Hurt in Bombing Rattles Market; Lawyers Discuss Defending a Difficult Defendant; Talking with People Injured in Boston Bombing
Aired April 23, 2013 - 15:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: That immediately sent Wall Street off into a tailspin for a dramatic few minutes. You saw the Dow drop over 100 points, 140 points pretty much, within seconds dropping that much.
I don't know if we can pull up the chart and show just how steep that drop was and so quickly. And then it turned around and recovered within minutes when the A.P. realized it had been hacked and said that tweet was not correct.
It really shows, Brooke, how the headlines can really moved the market, especially when there is a shocking headline from a reputable news organization, just how much it can move the market.
It also shows this high-frequency trading that is so prevalent now, this computerized trading, where trades can happen in nanoseconds and market activity can change in an instant.
BROOK BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: At least we have the bounce back, way above that 14,000 mark, despite this rollercoaster, quick rollercoaster of a day on Wall Street.
Alison Kosik, thank you.
CHRIS CUOMO, CO-ANCHOR, "CNN NEWSROOM": It also shows the general anxiety atmosphere we're in now.
We' won't repeat what the tweet was because it was fake and it was offensive, but we're all on edge, and it's just one more reason why the investigation surrounding what happened here is so important.
The more we get answers, the more people calm down and understand that the situation is under control.
BALDWIN: There is surveillance video and witnesses and a nation wanting justice here.
So does -- how does a lawyer defend Dzhokhar Tsarnaev?
Coming up next, we're talking to two attorneys who faced a similar challenge. They each defended a terrorist suspect.
BALDWIN: Here we are, live in Boston
I'm Brooke Baldwin alongside my colleague Chris Cuomo here.
And as we're following the investigation here in Boston into the Boston marathon bombings, got some news just last hour, these new images that show the Tsarnaev brothers allegedly in action, mid- action.
This was just last Thursday during that shootout that ultimately ended in the older brother's death.
It is just more evidence here from the surveillance tape to material found in Dzhokhar's dorm room at U Mass - Dartmouth that apparently links them to the bombings here in Boston one week ago yesterday.
And, in fact, one senator, put it this way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: There is ample evidence here on the criminal side. A first-year law student could prosecute this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: All right, so the question becomes, how do we move forward as prosecutors and also as defenders in this situation? After all this is America. This man is going to be tried as a citizen under the criminal code. He's going to have defense. We already know he had a lawyer present for his first meeting.
So to talk about it, perspectives from two lawyers who've represented terrorist suspects, Jenny Martinez, who was the attorney for Jose Padilla, convicted in 2007 for conspiring to murder Americans and provide material to support terrorists; and Stephen Jones, who represented Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.
Let's start at the -- first of all, thanks to both of you. Appreciate you being here.
Stephen, I'll start with you. You do not agree with Senator Graham that this case against the suspect right now is not a slam dunk. What is your take?
STEPHEN JONES, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBER: I don't agree with that at all. I think that's, to be frank with you, arrogant nonsense.
There are plenty of cases that started out with the public believing and politicians believing that the defendant was guilty, only to find that the defendant was acquitted, or the charges were dismissed or he was found guilty of a lesser included offense and not the main offense.
So with respect to Senator Graham, the defense can only hope that the prosecutors have the mindset that he distributed.
CUOMO: All right, but playing the process aside, Mr. Jones, what is the best thing you can point to that makes you question the strength of the case from the outside?
JONES: Well, there's two things, Chris.
First, obviously, the defense will want to investigate all of the facts, review all of the video and talk to their clients. To the extent that their client does not communicate much to law enforcement, then they have the benefit of knowing their client's story, which is the basis for the defense.
Secondly, their client is the younger of the two brothers, which raises the question already discussed in the public of whether he was acting under his brother's influence, and failed in critical judgment or had some other object that would cause diminished responsibility.
And finally, there is the question of the penalty. Massachusetts is not a state that a prosecutor would want to seek the death penalty because, first of all, the state doesn't allow it, and so you're dealing with a jury pool that is conditioned to be against the death penalty.
So the defense has many ways they can go in this case.
CUOMO: No question, no question about that. A lot of different ways to manipulate a case from the defense side.
Jenny, let me ask you something different, though, that is very important to people watching right now.
How do you balance as a defense attorney the interest of the rights of this citizen, this defendant, moving forward, and the need for critical information about a threat against Americans?
How do you balance how much you allow them today, how much you allow them to clam up, how do you balance that?
PROFESSOR JENNY MARTINEZ, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR TERRORIST JOSE PADILLA: I think the Obama administration has done a great job so far in this case in striking that balance.
I think they were right to invoke the public safety exception to Miranda, which says, hey, if you've got a guy who is a dangerous terrorist, where there may still be attacks that are imminent, where he may have co-conspirators, there may be another bomb out there, you don't have to immediately read the Miranda warnings.
You can do what any sensible person would do, what any sensible police officer would do, which is, first, talk to the guy and make sure there is no other imminent threat.
And then I think after they did that initial questioning, they also did the right thing to move him to the civilian criminal justice system. You know, Senator Graham and others have suggested, oh, no, they should have held him as an enemy combatant. They should have held him under the laws of war.
And I think the experience in the Jose Padilla case and the (inaudible) case shows that trying one of these new categories just leads to years of legal confusion, whereas since 9/11, almost 500 people have been convicted in federal court on terrorism charges following ordinary procedures.
BALDWIN: Jenny, let me jump in. This is to both of you then we'll wrap this up.
But in talking about everything that happened by this young man's bedside yesterday, we talked to our go to legal mind here at CNN and that's Jeffrey Toobin, and he said that the number one words that the defense should be using here is delay -- delay, delay, delay. Let some time pass.
Do you agree?
JONES: I agree with that, yes.
MARTINEZ: I think in any case -- I think in any case at this high profile this complicated, whether you want delay or not, it is going to take some time to work through it and I think everyone, both prosecution and defense, is going to want to be very careful to get everything right here.
And so I don't think people should delay, just for the sake of delay. But I think everyone should make sure to get legal procedures right here, so there is no question about the fairness and the accurateness of the proceedings.
Jenny Martinez and Steven Jones, thank you so much.
And, you know, coming up here in Boston, there are dozens of people who are dealing with losing limbs. They're facing a tough road ahead.
I spent my morning at Boston medical because there are these two guys, and it's not just these two guys, a lot of people are coming up here from Walter Reed, Wounded Warriors, folks lost limbs from IEDs, like this one gentleman I talked to today, who are here to help the victims of Boston's bombings.
I talked to two of them today. I'll share that interview with you coming up. Here is a peek.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just the experience itself, she's going to have some self-doubt at some point. But seeing what other people can do and seeing what we do with our lives as amputees, it will give her that hope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Of the more than 260 people injured in this past week's bombings, dozens are still recovering in the hospital, and about 15 of those people lost limbs in the attack.
So a lot of people are coming out to help these folks who have lost arms and lost legs, including the two guys I talked to today.
One lost a leg in a motorcycle accident. He's been helping people get prosthetics for years, because as you know, they're not cheap.
Second gentleman I spoke with lost his leg in Afghanistan a couple of years ago in an IED explosion.
They were at Boston medical as was I. They were visiting this mother/daughter, Celeste (ph) and Sydney Corker (ph), and they're here. They were both watching their aunt run the race, and the mother, in the blast, lost both of her legs. The daughter had what they were worried would be a fatal injury.
They are OK. They're recovering. We got an update on mom and daughter and also heard from these two guys. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: There because they lost their legs ...
STEVE CHAMBERLAND, 50LEGS.ORG: Yeah.
BALDWIN: ... last Monday. You lost your leg in a motorcycle accident.
How are you helping them?
CHAMBER: Well, we were here just for like mental support. We have been there. I've been in that hospital. And I know what it is like.
Tanner's been blown up in Afghanistan, so he knows what it is like to be in the same situation they're in.
So we just wanted to let them know, life as an amputee, life is not over. You just got a new step in life you've got to deal with.
BALDWIN: You lost your leg in an IED accident. How do you try to explain to these people who are still reeling that it is going to be OK?
TANNER SMITH, RETIRED ARMY STAFF SERGEANT: Well, you know, you can only tell them what you've been through. And, you know, I remember when I was in there, in Walter Reed, there were amputees there and they were giving me words of encouragement and stuff like that.
And it did help, but at the same time, she's going to go through her own healing process and there's going to be times that no matter what we can tell her, or see what we do, until she experiences it for herself, you know, she's going to have self-doubt at some point.
But seeing what other people can do and seeing what we do with our lives, as amputees, it will give her that hope and when she gets down, she'll be able to lean on that and go, but if they can do it, eventually I'll do. And she will.
BALDWIN: It is such a unique story to think that mom and daughter are healing, next to each other. I'm so close to my mom. That would help me so much.
How are they doing?
CHAMBERLAND: They're awesome. We were just -- I was joking with them yesterday, is she still going to be in the hospital?
She's not going anywhere. So I think even if the daughter was able to go home, I don't think her mom's going to let her go.
SMITH: She's got some good spirits. There were a group of Marines, amputees that went and visited her the other day.
And she was joking about how she wanted to run the Boston marathon at one point, but she never could run very well because she had these bad shin splints.
She's like, well, now I don't have to worry about shin splints anymore.
So she's got a good sense of humor about it and everything.
BALDWIN: So sense of humor, but reality here, what is the biggest challenge and hurdle to overcome, that you all have personally experienced?
SMITH: For me, it was just depression. Everything is going to come. The walking, you know, the -- if she wants to run, running.
I do some stuff that even normal people don't do. I snowboard, I wakeboard, stuff like that. And I've seen above the knee, below the knee, double amputees, do all of it.
So that stuff can come. Whatever she wants to do, it will come. But, you know there is going to be dark days, you know. It's just keeping that positive attitude and climbing back out of it again.
BALDWIN: Final words, Bostonian?
CHAMBERLAND: Just -- I hope everybody just keeps giving them support because they're going to go through a lot of different things, like, I didn't get depressed until five years later.
So it's not like it's going to happen overnight. Some people are different. I was five years later. I just -- it is not fun. I was in a dark place and I just drank myself, you know, and I realized, what am I doing? My life is just -- I'm being that guy that I don't like being.
BALDWIN: So look at you now.
CHAMBERLAND: Look at me now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: So, incredible stories, these two guys helping these people.
And I should mention, it is Sydney's (ph) 18th birthday, so they brought her some teddy bears and balloons and tried to lift her spirits in the hospital today.
CUOMO: It's another part of the reality of the situation that people are going to have to live through, and also an aspect of why we keep saying "Boston strong," people coming together to try to help.
This is going to be hard in so many ways and part of it is we tell you these stories because you want to connect with people just like you who are living through such a horrible thing. And also to remember the motivation for getting it right here.
And that's why the investigation is so important, on the state side, and also on the citizen side, because we have to understand what could be known about these suspects, the case has to be made.
And it's going on here, and it's going on in Washington where Congress is demanding answers, looking at this as an investigation for them, too, to figure out whether the FBI understood everything that was going on here, did everything the right way, and lawmakers want to know if it could have been done better.
And we're going to take you inside what this controversy is right now, and show you which direction it may go, and the questions that have to be asked and answered when we come back.
BALDWIN: A closed Senate hearing of the Senate intelligence committee got under way last hour on Capitol Hill.
FBI officials are there. They have been called before the panel to answer questions.
We have been talking so much about all the questions there are really in this investigation, what led up to what happened here last Monday in Boston, and about the Bureau's handling of the older brother, Tamerlan Tsarnaev.
Let's go to chief political analyst Gloria Borger. And, Gloria, talk about the pressure, the pressure the FBI is under to explain what the heck happened.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: A lot of pressure, as we speak, behind closed doors.
First of all, members of Congress want to do their job. They want to know what the FBI knew, when it knew it. They want to make sure that information wasn't what we call in Washington-speak "siloed." You know, post-9/11, the big issue was that agencies need to be sharing information.
They want to make sure that, for example, the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security, intelligence were all sharing information.
But then there's another question -- this is really important -- that's just sort of come up today, which is, if the FBI investigated this man and they decided that he was not really a threat, they contact the Russians, they try and get more information, they don't get more information, what can they then do that doesn't violate federal guidelines to continue to pursue him?
Where do they have to cut it off? Where does legal and an illegal surveillance begin? There are federal guidelines to this and, clearly, the FBI did not want to cross a line, particularly if they found no indication of terrorist activity.
CUOMO: All right, thank you, Gloria.
Obviously, the big question will be, did they do everything, were they in the loop? Were they coordinated? Did they work off the Russians' information well? Did they use resources and assets in Russia to forward the understanding?
And all of those questions, hopefully, will be asked and we will be listening because, as we've been saying all day -- Gloria, thank you to you and Brooke -- what we keep bringing up is, respect to the victims, making sure that you do it right, making sure that we can stay safe and do it better the next time.
Another piece of that is looking at the explosives used in this case. Not with a fascination on how to make them, but how to deal with them if they do go off.
And when we come back after the break, CNN is going to take a look at how a pressure cooker bomb is made, but more importantly, how it can be dealt with by first responders.
BALDWIN: Now for a look at the anatomy of a pressure cooker bomb and how to deal with it once it goes off, here is David Mattingly.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: At this remote desert testing ground, experts from New Mexico Tech replicate and explode bombs used by terrorists. On this day, there is a sense of urgency. After Boston, what are you worried about? Could this be the future of domestic terrorists?
VAN ROMERO, NEW MEXICO TECH V.P.: Well, you're always worried about copycats. You know, are more and more people going to be using this?
MATTINGLY: This is a pressure cooker bomb similar to the bombs in Boston and we're about to set it off.
ROMERO: All right, going to do the countdown? .
MATTINGLY: In the wrong hands, we know how deadly this bomb can be, and we're not taking any chances.
For safety reasons, we've had to retreat to this mountaintop here. We are now over a quarter of a mile away from where we left that pressure cooker.
But that's still not far enough to avoid flying shrapnel, so we're watching from inside a bunker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five, four, three, two, one.
MATTINGLY: Wow. That white smoke looks just like what we saw in Boston.
I could feel it, all the way up here.
ROMERO: Oh yes, that shockwave will travel all the way.
MATTINGLY: But down below is the real shock.
ROMERO: At this point, we're looking for fragments.
MATTINGLY: One bomb turned into thousands of weapons scattered more than 100 yards. This was part of the pressure cooker, now mangled and razor sharp. No wonder so many people got hurt.
Instead of nails, we filled the pot with nuts from a hardware store. Shot out like bullets, they pierced plywood. Some even melted from the heat.
Look at the back of it? How fast were these things moving when they went out of there?
ROMERO: They can travel 1,000, 2,000 feet a second.
MATTINGLY: A second? That's faster than sound.
ROMERO: Right, they'll move faster than the speed of sound.
These things will actually get in front of the shockwave and hit you before the shock or the pressure wave does.
MATTINGLY: You're hit before you hear it?
ROMERO: That's right.
MATTINGLY: Here's what the blast looks like using a high-speed camera -- an intense ball of fire less than 20 feet across.
But watch the white rings on the desert floor; that's the shock wave.
Engineers studying this blast say there's a lesson in here for first responders.
Let's say I'm a first responder. What do I need to be aware of when I come up on scene like this?
ROMERO: Well, there's a lot of shrapnel around. It's very hot, it's very sharp. You could easily cut yourself.
There could be unexploded ordnance, parts of the bomb that are still left over that didn't explode when it was supposed to explode. That could go off at any time.
MATTINGLY: But for potential bystanders, out of this demonstration, there are only words of caution.
By the time you hear the boom, you could already be hit. Awareness of your surroundings could be the only defense.
David Mattingly, CNN, Socorro, New Mexico.